Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 05, 2020

Can't Count Votes? Just Draw Straws.

It seems that we all will have to fill up our popcorn supplies as the rather comical and disgraceful process of U.S. vote counting is likely to continue until maybe December 8, the safe harbor date on which the states will have to certify their electors.

The race is nowhere near where the Democrats and their supporting media had expected it to go. Just last week polls claimed that Biden would lead in Wisconsin by 17 percent. The current margin is a rather dubious 0.6 percent which upcoming recounts may well eliminate.

That the Democrats lose House seats, do not win the Senate and barely manage to drag their demented presidential candidate towards a stalemate tells a lot about their lack of sane policies. A donor party completely disinterested in what the people really want - medicare for all, no fracking etc. - will have little chance to survive a future onslaught of conservatives with a more competent figure head than Donald Trump.

There will be protests, probably violent ones, and more legal action from either side. I see no compromise possible that would satisfy both parties. I fear that, should Trump lose this election. Trumpism will only grow and make the U.S. ungovernable.

Maybe Trump and Biden could publicly draw straws to get over with it.

Posted by b on November 5, 2020 at 12:06 UTC | Permalink

next page »

Hanging chads?

Posted by: par4 | Nov 5 2020 12:18 utc | 1

Trump DID lose the election 1. Denial, 2. anger, ... okay the pollsters, the bulwark of western democracy, were wrong about the size of Biden's victory, so what. Trump now joins the elite club of other one term Presidents like Jimmy Cater and Bush Sr.

Maybe instead of throwing money at the Pentagon, the fed should give the states money for a uniform voting infrastructure but that would be soooooo-cialism, can't have that. Funny it was the traditionally Red States that are having the most problem counting votes, not any of the badly run Blue States.

Posted by: Christian J. Chuba | Nov 5 2020 12:18 utc | 2

I have to agree.

The ballot counting has been disgraceful and as a result the election is going to end up in the Supreme Court.

Posted by: Down South | Nov 5 2020 12:25 utc | 3

@ Christian J. Chuba

Bullshit, last year it didn't take this long.

Posted by: Smith | Nov 5 2020 12:30 utc | 4

I can assure you that the people here in the heartland of the US find it rather hard to believe that the miraculous turn-around in the votes for Biden was due to anything other than fraud. Trump got tens of thousands of people coming to his rallies and Biden/Harris got a handful at best. Biden is a demented pervert crook who needs prompting to remember who he is running against and what office he is running for lol. The perfect choice to be in charge of the US nuclear arsenal. Harris is a fan of BLM, applauding while US cities burned and Democratic mayors and governors did nothing; the perfect VP ready to step in when Joe drops dead or the photos on Hunter's laptop finally go public.

And Hillary just can't wait to get back in the White House and get that no-fly zone set up over Syria. Yes, there will be hell to pay, and not just in the US.

Posted by: Perimetr | Nov 5 2020 12:31 utc | 5

I always stare at US elections and ballot counting in amazement and disbelief. I really rarely say many friendly things about Germany, where I live, and there is enough to scold and resent here.

And of course ballot counting in a 4 times larger by population and geographically much more extended country may have is specialties. Nevertheless, when the poll stations here close at 6pm local time, it takes less than 2 hours until the majority of electoral districts have posted results, and a preliminary official end result is published by the federal election supervisor around 10pm local time (end result with usually very minor corrections the next day).

The Americans I know (my son and my daughter in law included) are no less able to count and add than anybody here. I ask myself every time what they are doing wrong over there.

Posted by: aquadraht | Nov 5 2020 12:38 utc | 6

harris is a big supporter of locking people up, she may have pretended to support blm but she lied. you right wingers, republicans and democrats, love your jackbooted government thugs, whether they are bashing skulls in syria or in u.s. cities.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 5 2020 12:38 utc | 7

More bad news for Trump: Georgia, North Carolina Trump's lead is decreasing. New found ballots...

Also b you called it,
Riot declared in Portland as rioters smash windows

Those leftwingers will create chaos even when Trump lost the election.

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 5 2020 12:43 utc | 8

What makes the US ungovernable is the black underclass and the radical BLM/Antifa crowd. Right wing politics in the US is almost undetectable.

The good result is federal government paralysis, which is always the best outcome in a continental confederacy.

Posted by: bob sykes | Nov 5 2020 12:47 utc | 9

It was looking like a repeat performance of 2016. By 10:30 EST Tuesday the Fat lady was getting ready to sing. Then we were told to be patient...they just put the Fat Lady on a diet.

Funny how in Republican run states, like Florida and Texas, they had no problem getting the vote tally as they normally do. In Democrat run swing states they couldn't do this. Michigan & Pennsylvania signaled in advance that they would not count all the votes election night. Why? We know why now.

Posted by: EoinW | Nov 5 2020 12:50 utc | 10

I live in Wisconsin and I can assure you that the voting process here is tight as it was designed by Republicans with the intention of holding down the vote of the lower classes. A photo I.D. is required to vote. If you vote absentee you need to send in a photocopy of the I.D. with your ballot application. There is a statewide voter registration data base, so double voting is impossible. There have been two statewide recounts in the last decade and neither recount changed a thing. There has been only been a few cases of people voting illegally, convicted felons who hadn't finished parole and didn't realize they were ineligible and a couple Republicans who thought they would demonstrate how easy voting fraud was.

Unless there was some widespread electronic malfunction of the voting machinery the current result in Wisconsin will stand. Nevada is the state to watch.

Posted by: Gareth | Nov 5 2020 12:54 utc | 11

How about going old school with dueling. Outside of its Zionism exactly what is wrong with Trumpism? It is pretty much straight populism. However I really don't think you have to worry, the uniparty is rising. That in turn will allow drip version of progressivism to continue and the rich overlords will get richer. Do you progressives ever see the correlation with that?

Posted by: Old and Grumpy | Nov 5 2020 13:00 utc | 12

The US is ungovernable except for giveaways to the corrupt, rich and connected. Current events are the logical outcome or process of a Federal government that needs to die. Buckle Up.

Posted by: So | Nov 5 2020 13:02 utc | 13

Gareth @ 11

Sure Wisconsin is tight. Even you must recall the Supreme Court election in which the Kenosha County Clerk had downloaded all election records and the only election records to her personal laptop. Then when the number of votes required was clear, found 50,000 votes at midnight, just enough to elect the judge in the Koch pocket. So what if many precincts had 100% turnout and everybody voted the ‘right’ way. Nobody believed it, nobody challenged it, the result stood.

If Biden is elected it will be because of comments like yours and comments like #2. The press will repeat millions of times that Biden won and we will all pretend that settles it

Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 5 2020 13:04 utc | 14

"Maybe Trump and Biden could publicly draw straws to get over with it."

No way.

We need a combination of wrestling match, boxing, pistol duel, swordfight, jousting with lances, arm-wrestling, chess, swim across the English Channel, motor rally, horse race, tiddlywinks plus more that I haven't thought of yet.

Posted by: jiri | Nov 5 2020 13:05 utc | 15

@ Jackrabbit

FWIW, I was shocked 1-2 weeks ago when you predicted a trump landslide on the theory TPTB wanted to elevate Trump to a “glorious leader”. We’re both still confident the elites are controlling outcomes, largely by controlling who’s nominated and with what stories. Maybe TPTB felt Trump’s brusque manners would inflict too much damage to USA world popularity (soft power) if sustained for 8 years instead of 4. Or maybe they want a “Manchurian Joe” story to mirror Russiagate of the past term.

Posted by: oglalla | Nov 5 2020 13:06 utc | 16

You cannot just count up to 80% to 90% in less than 24 hours then proceed to sit on that for the next 48 hours.

This is bullshit.

Posted by: Smith | Nov 5 2020 13:11 utc | 17

I fear that, should Trump lose this election. Trumpism will only grow and make the U.S. ungovernable.

Don't worry Trump will still win.
A good Kayfabe performance requires the outcome to be a nail-biter right up to the last moment.

You have to admire the precision with which they are able to herd these two giant flocks of sheep so as to produce an outcome that is so perfectly split right down the middle and there is only one issue being contested - Trump yes or Trump no?

I say Trump will win because only he can engineer such amazing sheep herding and that makes Trump extremely valuable to TPTB. And for that he will be rewarded and they will make sure to find (or lose) the few votes needed to make it happen.

Posted by: jinn | Nov 5 2020 13:13 utc | 18

>> Right wing politics in the US is almost undetectable.

It manifests itself in:
- the 15% tax on capital gains enjoyed by the wealthy versus 30% for labor
- military spending that exceeds the next ten countries
- constant threats, bombing and overthrow of even slightly more “socialist” governments anywhere

Those are not just “detectable”. More like our “defining characteristics”.

Not sure what you’re referring to.

Posted by: oglalla | Nov 5 2020 13:16 utc | 19

oldhippie @14

That famous incident happened in Waukesha County (Republican), not Kenosha County (Democrat). It was thoroughly investigated and no illegalities were found. It was a reporting error not a counting error. A manual recount of the paper ballots verified the numbers were accurate. The Clerk lost her job before the next election.

Unless the Postal Service finds tens of thousands of ballots at a warehouse Trump is out of luck.

Posted by: Gareth | Nov 5 2020 13:21 utc | 20

Re: US vote counting: It is a mix by states, with "variations in quality" that result, typical of the US system. Inconsistent deadlines. Inconsistent times to start counting. Each state is free to hand the process to crony contractors. Some of the states are merely a little slow by world standards, others are spectacularly disorganized as seen in the primaries earlier this year.

Re: Wisconsin recount: it is a 'hail mary' play for Trump. They would need to disqualify 20000 *more* Dem ballots than Republican ballots. I said this before,but that kind of thing only works if there is actual net fraud by the winning party, or if the party demanding the recount controls the process, AND enough of the state government that the people "doing the work" know they won't get punished if they exaggerate their judgments of the ballots.

Re: polls falling flat on their face again -- Firstly, it is a rare sane person who answers the phone from random numbers any more. Polls are based on a sample of insane people. Secondly, after doing some deep reading of these things, one thing I noticed is that the polls tend to simply reproduce their population models of how many Republicans/Democrats they think each state has. This data is often outsourced to just one or two contractors. That might be something to do with it too.

Posted by: ptb | Nov 5 2020 13:23 utc | 21

As stated by another commenter elsewhere, if the the USofA really wanted to do elections that were free and fair there would be tranparent blockchains that are tamperproof, everyone could check their votes, voting would be mandatory. But no because BOTH factions seek to exploit and deeply flawed system. With "voting machines" (made by Diebold?!) one need not even hide bury or burn ballots!

Flash-back to 2004. The Bush Cartels' computer guy is flying back to Ohio after a miraculous W.Bush win and his plane drop out of the sky. Standard procedures are circumvented and the mess is cleaned up by the next day. His wife is left with an incomplete jumble of body parts. My point is that USAn elections are a dirty business and always have been. More outrageous still is the fact that any conflict in the political sphere is simply between people who are part of a club and most citizens will never get near it.

When taken in context of color revolutions and the great reset/agenda 21-30 the USAn elections are just another piece of the puzzle, with polarization being a central feature. Think of Obama-Trump as the opposing magnets and the pendullum as the social engineers tool. Selecting a "half-white harvard attorney cia asset" with a hopey-changey halo swings it to one side, alienating the other. Next we swing it in the opposite direction with "orange man bad" and teach the lefties how to hate, enflaming the rift in society.

With the controlled economic demolition ushering in neo-feudalism being assisted by the pandemic terror campaign, the global population will be led to slaughter through poverty, war, and perhaps even some poisons. Spare me the "everything will be fine once we have a vaccine" tag-line.

Posted by: Chevrus | Nov 5 2020 13:24 utc | 22

Believing Trump's inability to acknowledge reality, aka pathological lying, is merely his cunning proves two things, but only two things: First, misunderstanding mental illness itself causes mental impairment. Second, that you believe truth is not even a good thing, that lies in the service of reaction are valuable because they cause the "right" people of course.

Pop versions of BLM and critical race theory have been preaching that white people are all racist, and the worst are villains like John Brown and Lincoln and LBJ. So I'm not so certain the late-counted black votes in Georgia and Pennysylvania etc. are going to put Biden over the top. I never believed the Democrats would take the Senate, and I still don't, but if by some fluke they do, it will possibly lead to a de facto split in the Democratic Party as Biden is a conservative Democrat, the kind who did worst in the election. But he doesn't want to change anything. The result will be the people who want to destroy this country, starting with the government, then moving on to whole swathes of the people and even the social, even physical infrastructure, will continue their work by less effective means. Biden will not oppose them.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Nov 5 2020 13:25 utc | 23

We will never know who really won. It is now in the hands of the mechanics at the state level who will do their magic. As pointed out here earlier this is nothing new. The Rs have been purging voter roles and other assorted dirty tricks for years, now it may (or maybe not) be the turn of the Ds. What goes around comes around.

Posted by: c | Nov 5 2020 13:29 utc | 24

Gareth @ 20

OK fine, Waukesha. I am in Illinois. The judge took his seat and Scott Walker stayed in power. Immediately, not after any investigation. There was no investigation. There were no records. It was all on a personal laptop. It was a famous incident because it stank, not because it restored faith. The bomb drop of votes in middle of night is not forgotten. Or explained. Emollient words proclaiming civic virtue stink.

The Clerk lost her job. Later. If public confidence were even a consideration the Clerk would be in prison.

Repeating a comment from yesterday. US does not have national elections. The US has 3141 County elections that all happen on the same day. Each County plays by own rules. The only reason for maintaining the arcane system is corruption. Jimmy Carter has said many times the Carter Center would never accept an invitation to monitor a US
election because there are basically no rules. Only 3141 satrapies.

I have been in the Waukesha County Courthouse and it stinks. No one pretends.

Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 5 2020 13:43 utc | 25

It seems that we all will have to fill up our popcorn supplies as the rather comical and disgraceful process of U.S. vote counting is likely to continue until maybe December 8...

You know what's really disgraceful? Your exposed Trump bias and false hyperbole.

That poll that showed Biden ahead by 17 points in Wisconsin was the anomaly. Polls that are abnormally high on one end and too low on the other tend to be ignored, and the fact that you would zero in on that particular poll is telling of your own manipulation and bias.

It's not surprising that Dems have done poorly in the House and Senate races as Nancy Pelosi and Dems are being blamed and punished for not passing the Covid stimulus package while at the same time Trump is being punished for mishandling the pandemic that has led to economic fallout and more death than anywhere else. Quit spinning it like there's some abnormal conspiracy.

Next, it is extremely improbable to create fake ballots, because of the paper trail, verification and voter receipt process. The opposite, hiding ballots would be easier to pull off.

I am looking at Georgia. Georgia is notorious for voter suppression and ballot purging. Last night there were a ton of votes to be counted in a highly Democratic, African American county that includes Atlanta. The margin between Trump and Biden in Georgia has narrowed gradually favoring Biden to about 30,000 votes difference for Trump; less than a point. Suddenly, I wake up this morning and there are only 13,000 votes left to count! Whut??? How many votes were purged in adjudication overnight for there to be only 13,000 votes left this morning to count? THIS I find disturbing! Someone should check on this. I don't like the smell of this. Republicans have the most to lose on the demographic scale and they have an ugly suppression track record and election fraud pattern of behaviour to counter demographics that don't favour them.

However, the fact that there are still hundreds of thousands of votes still being counted in the Democratic stronghold of Philadelphia, PA; THIS is normal! Votes are mail processed, county processed and there is a receipt trail! There were millions of early mail-in votes waiting for the election in-person votes to be counted FIRST. It's therefore normal that the narrowing margin is favoring Biden in Philly.

Trump hates mail-in because they're verifiable. There's a paper trail he can't get around. Also, votes that are postmarked November 3rd but were delayed in USPS delivery ARE LEGAL. It's not the voter's fault the postal service was overwhelmed and did not prepare for this unprecedented election participation.

Trump put his own lackey to head the USPS! Then he cut funding for the USPS! Then he urged HIS supporters to vote in person. So who is suppressing who here?

I have good reason to suspect vote purging in Georgia because there is ample proof it's been done before, there, specifically!

What you are doing here is also highly suspect and manipulative.

There will be protests, probably violent ones

Don't stir the pot over a false premise. I see right through you and you are shredding your credibility in these past articles, and others have also commented on this fact.

Why is it that on Covid you were so factual and science-driven and when it comes to Trump you manipulate, spin and stir hysterical, unfounded conspiracy in his favour?

I have a radar for deception and manipulation and you have exposed a glaring lack of credibility here. Sad.

Posted by: Circe | Nov 5 2020 13:48 utc | 26

We’re both still confident the elites are controlling outcomes, largely by controlling who’s nominated and with what stories.

The elites control the outcome by controlling the voters and in this election they controlled more voters than ever been controlled before. This is a monumental victory for the elites.

The elites may control who gets nominated but no matter how flawed or repugnant their candidate is or how obvious that the candidate was chosen for them the flocks that follow the candidates act as if they did the choosing. Trump was given 10 times the free advertising than all the other primary candidates combined and yet his followers think they picked him. And Biden will go down in history as the candidate who got more popular votes than any other candidate ever has and yet he is about as popular as a hemorrhoid.

Posted by: jinn | Nov 5 2020 13:48 utc | 27

Interesting case study on vote fraud occurs at the local level. I posted it on an earlier thread. What is staggering is how many people were involved.

Chicago, however, is known for its fires, and there was a roaring one there in 1982 that resulted in one of the largest voter fraud prosecutions ever conducted by the U.S. Department of Justice. The telltale smoke arose out of one of the closest governor's races in Illi­nois history; and as for the fire, the U.S. Attorney in Chicago at the time, Daniel Webb, estimated that at least 100,000 fraudulent votes (10 percent of all votes in the city) had been cast.[2] Sixty-five individuals were indicted for federal election crimes, and all but two (one found incompetent to stand trial and another who died) were convicted. [3]

Posted by: Down South | Nov 5 2020 13:55 utc | 28

And as a result, people are even more invested in a system that is currupt and rigged from the very start. A great victory for the "elite" indeed.

Posted by: Chevrus | Nov 5 2020 13:57 utc | 29

Okay, I want to hold back on my suspicions regarding Georgia purging votes in adjudication between last night and this a.m.

I just heard a few minutes ago the vote total left to count is 50,000 not 13,000. That jives more realistically with what was left last night around midnight.

Still, I don't trust Georgia's officials. Georgia should be under the microscope with its notorious track record suppressing the AA vote. We'll see...

Posted by: Circe | Nov 5 2020 14:04 utc | 30

I see no comprise possible that would satisfy both parties.
no compromise?


The Americans I know (my son and my daughter in law included) are no less able to count and add than anybody here. I ask myself every time what they are doing wrong over there.
Posted by: aquadraht | Nov 5 2020 12:38 utc | 6

If there is suddenly a high rise in mail-in votes, it may take more time too. Happened here in my town recently. Don't nail me on it, but it feels that our early reports are projections based on polls in selective polling stations.

I actually wanted to volunteer occasionally, if I had, I would know more. Maybe it is a mixture, and they already have partial numbers from the different polling stations coming in over the day.

What I find more curious in the US are the polls. Is it only a problem of bad research designs, questions asked, do people respond differently based on that, or are Germans more easy to poll? I read a lot about tricking the pollster on SST in recent years. There is of course the by now really curious explanation, people don't like to tell the pollster that they in fact support Trump.

As German I find it strange one has to register to vote, and basically, there is a US-Australian study, Germans don't distrust their elections as much as Americans do.

Posted by: vig | Nov 5 2020 14:04 utc | 31

seeing we are into silly solutions to the problem, how about this one: if Joe Biden can, unaided, find his way to the White House then he can be president.

I heard the first task of his Transition Team is to build a basement in the White House.

Posted by: EoinW | Nov 5 2020 14:04 utc | 32

There is of course the by now really curious explanation,

Ok, not so curious.

Posted by: vig | Nov 5 2020 14:07 utc | 33

Gareth @ 11

I can remember - 8 to 12 years ago - when Democrat primaries were not fixed. It's a completely different beast in 2020. The entire Left is unrecognizable from 15 years ago. It used to care more about wars in Iraq then Trannie washrooms! Even with obvious fraud, you still see them here making excuses for their Left wing candidate.

Posted by: EoinW | Nov 5 2020 14:09 utc | 34

Dementiacrats equals More Wars

Posted by: librul | Nov 5 2020 14:11 utc | 35

Bullshit, last year it didn't take this long.
Posted by: Smith | Nov 5 2020 12:30 utc | 4

Considering the different laws in the different states, some cannot start counting mailed-in maybe early cast votes before election day, others can, huge increase in mail-in votes, more chances to vote early so you don't wind up in a 2 miles long queue?

If I suggest elections under Corona, what would be the first thing on your mind?

Posted by: vig | Nov 5 2020 14:14 utc | 36

Thank you Portland!
The antifa/blm liberal left loons hates America.
Yet they never seem to leave as they threaten.
They stay to burn and loot and riot.
They want anarchy.
While armchair chickenhawks like Circe whine about false premise.
Behold. Liberal progress.

Posted by: JoeG | Nov 5 2020 14:15 utc | 37

Did the Republicans think to plant someone on the inside and obtain evidence/proof of the Dementiacrat's election results machinations?

Posted by: librul | Nov 5 2020 14:17 utc | 38

The plan's always been to create some phoney justification so the Supremes can save Trump. Just as they did for W. So all the RWers are wailing about voter fraud in hopes that enough noise will acheive their sordid goal. The faux outrage is nausiating. Loosers always have excuses.

Posted by: Ralph Conner | Nov 5 2020 14:23 utc | 39

"I fear that, should Trump lose this election. Trumpism will only grow and make the U.S. ungovernable."

First; the full stop behind the word 'election' seems to be a Freudian mistake...
Second; the assertion, the fear, is not believable. Would Tronald win Trumpism would certainly grow even more.

Posted by: pnyx | Nov 5 2020 14:26 utc | 40

Michigan & Pennsylvania signaled in advance that they would not count all the votes election night. Why? We know why now.
Posted by: EoinW | Nov 5 2020 12:50 utc | 10

Maybe you want to check Michigan & Pennsylvania's election laws?

A couple of weeks ago I read a quite good report on a Trump rally in Michigan. Unfortunately I lost the link. The reporter dived into the Trump crowd that listed reverently on occasions cheered enthusiastically, like when he told them how many car plants he brought back to Michigan. The reporter and a fan, a nurse had a hot dog and a drink together, and they chatted a little. Lets say the nurse lived in the Trumpian alternative universe. Why wouldn't there be more plants if Trump told her so? And the reporter? Well he knew that jobs in the car industry actually decreased and gave his readers the facts including a hint where to find them.

Posted by: vig | Nov 5 2020 14:35 utc | 41

"... and make the U.S. ungovernable."

If by ungovernable you mean that compromise is always a one way street to the left, then, you might be right.

The issue with mail-in ballots is that Democrat executives are ignoring the law and Democrat judges are creating laws. Fraud is a huge problem and we are witnessing it.

I have been advocating for a long time electronic voting with hard copy of ballot for auditing. I recently became aware that some States use an electronic voting machine with printed tape.

From a tweet by Dennis Lennox @dennislennox (no idea who he is or if his numbers are accurate)

Trump did not lose #AntrimCounty in #Michigan. It is now confirmed that 32 other counties use the same software as Antrim County. He will get 6,000-plus votes out of Antrim. What about the other counties with the same software?


ANTRIM COUNTY, Mich. (WILX) - The Antrim County Clerk Office noticed some inaccuracies with posted unofficial results at 4 a.m. on Tuesday. They immediately reviewed the results.

The Antrim County Clerk’s Office has been working around the clock to identify what caused the inaccuracies.

The total votes that were counted by the election software did not match printed tabulator tapes. Official results were based upon the printed tabulator tapes.

Therefore, the printed tabulated tapes from each precinct will be counted manually. The results will be deemed “official” once the independent board of canvassers verifies them.

Posted by: JaimeInTexas | Nov 5 2020 14:38 utc | 42

The "peaceful but fiery protests" in Portland are just a small taste of the delightful entertainment that we will get to enjoy if somehow Trump's election fraud prevails over the establishment election fraud. Who is so dull that they don't want more of that?

Riots are good for Americans. Gets them off their couches for a few hours.

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 5 2020 14:39 utc | 43

Jinn, ''the most valuable to TPDB, will still win,who can handle the herd''...
i would just take this pen and flatly say that everything you say is pure immaculate BS but then I realized I actually didn't catch what you mean.
Please what you mean?

Posted by: augusto | Nov 5 2020 14:48 utc | 44

JaimeInTexas @42: "The Antrim County Clerk’s Office has been working around the clock to identify what caused the inaccuracies."

Circe: "It was the Russians!"

Just so everyone knows, large numbers of electronic voting machines in the US can only be audited and verified electronically, which is to say they cannot be audited or verified at all.

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 5 2020 14:49 utc | 45

As the wheels of confusion turn and grind on the collective lack of consciousness, one almost welcomes the staged brushfire conflicts as a natural consequence of the devious manipulation schemes being played out.
Riot, burn and even murder turning the city that was once a daffodil paradise into a sparsely populated squat for the drug addled underclass. When the blm/antifa provocateurs descend upon the wrong place, they may very well get a grand unwelcoming. That too will be a natural consequence.

Posted by: Chevrus | Nov 5 2020 14:51 utc | 46

Biden won decisively (once votes are counted). He’ll take GA and Penn and finish with over 300 votes. He’s likely to pull a larger national margin Obama or Bush did even though Trump did increase his turnout from 2016 by up to 20%. Rather, B predicted Trump would win. Yes, that one CNN poll from Wisconsin was wrong and others didn’t predict the correct margin in states. But there haven’t been any surprises on the state level except GA - Biden won where expected and Trump too. But those polls more accurately predicted the result of the presidential than MoA, to be fair.

Posted by: Mehdi Manseur | Nov 5 2020 14:54 utc | 47

Gareth @ 11

Nevada is the state to watch

I guess since covid put Nevada's hookers on ice, they didn't caucus for Biden like they did for Hillary.

But I see that Trump did send some coinage to Hookers for Jesus.

so I guess it's hookers vs hookers...

exciting stuff.

Posted by: john | Nov 5 2020 14:58 utc | 48

"I fear that, should Trump lose this election. Trumpism will only grow and make the U.S. ungovernable."



That's the best thing that could happen.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Nov 5 2020 14:59 utc | 49

librul is heading for a meltdown...good! There is justice!


Okay, let me be specific. The margin difference in Georgia is .4 for Trump or 18,000 votes.

The batch being counted this moment in Atlanta is 10,000. Early this a.m. it was 13,000, but in total there are 50,000 votes left to count in the State of Georgia. Not sure if that's Fulton County alone which is highly Democratic or within the entire State. However, if I remember correctly, from two nights ago, the total votes outstanding late Nov. 3rd into the 4th were mostly in majority Democratic counties.

These are the latest precise details. I was right to post last night around midnight that Biden must have Ray Charles' Georgia on his mind.

I do believe, yes indeed, that Trump is gonna lose Georgia! And I believe there's a Senate seat or two in play as well. It couldn't be more appropriate for a State that purged the black vote in the last Congressional election.

Ray Charles is smiling from heaven and Trump will be drowning in a blue wave by tonight and wallowing in misery.

Hallelujah Jesus!

Posted by: Circe | Nov 5 2020 15:01 utc | 50

Why is everyone so surprised? Counting is not something that is thought in US elementary schools.
Counting the foreigners killed by military. Counting “collateral damage” from drone strikes. Counting the money lost in Sunni-awakening. Counting the military budget where a hammer costs, what, mucho dinero. Counting black sites for torture. Counting…
American politicians are always certain about some “shit-hole-countries” vote being rigged, but that rigged stuff is just there, never here, is the attitude.
Mayor Daley of Chicago said it best: “ Vote early, and vote often.” Nothing has changed since those words were spoken. And I think it was the Diebold president that said: W43 is our man, we’ll get him elected.
What a grand show. Indeed popcorn worthy. As though in a drive-in, buckle up too.

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | Nov 5 2020 15:04 utc | 51

Taught, not thought.

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | Nov 5 2020 15:07 utc | 52

What is 100% clear about this election:

1) MSM polls are garbage. Nate Silver is a moron.

2) There was no blue tide. Nor was there a red tide. I said it would be close, and this present situation absolutely qualifies as close. I now expect this to drag on for weeks - possibly until December.

3) COVID policies - lockdowns and what not - are not even close to universally supported. The PMCs like it, the conservatives don't.

4) Trump outperformed 2016 in every demographic category except white males. Not that he is majority supported, that he got more votes from these groups in 2020 than in 2016 - from black men, from black women, from white women, from hispanic men, from hispanic women and from the "other" category: source

What can we say for sure from this election?

a) There won't be a new stimulus unless Trump wins. Pelosi not taking the $1.8T proposed in October (vs. the $2.8T the Democrats wanted and vs. the $1T first proposed by McConnell) was a huge mistake.

The Republican increase in the House plus Republicans holding the line in the Senate means if Biden wins - McConnell is 99% certain to not go along with a stimulus in February just to ensure that the blue states' bleeding budgets don't get shored up and to set up maximum pain during the Biden administration - as a prelude to the 2024 presidential race.

b) There will not be scrutiny of tech companies unless Trump wins. The Google antitrust will fizzle out with Biden/Harris in office.

c) Health care remains a quagmire. If Biden had gone Medicare For All, or even Bernie, I would have voted for either, holding my nose. The ongoing Democrat sellout to the health care industry continues.

d) If Biden wins, the Democrat party won't change its ways. It won't go Medicare For All. It won't return to its blue collar roots. It will continue to be the apologists for Republican deregulation pushes.

e) Identitarian politics doesn't work. If Biden wins, this may be glossed over but Trump's improvement vs. 2016 - even in a record turnout year - means that the identitarian politics issue resonates only with the PMC crowd. As Krystal of Rising notes: it is stupid to focus on this issue when the PMC crowd is pro-Democrat no matter what.

Things which are less clear:

Will the Republican party understand and acknowledge what Trump has done? Call it populism or Trumpism or whatever - Trump has breached the Democrat stranglehold on minorities and the lower classes. Anyone who saw any of the rallies in the past 5 weeks knows the base Trump inspired is not going to disappear, but the old-money stranglehold on the Republican party is not to be underestimated.


I see this election as positive. So many sacred cows gored. So many people - regardless of who wins President - are going to be energized/angry. This hopefully focuses attention on the huge list of things which need to be fixed so that there is a chance they will be.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 5 2020 15:10 utc | 53

And as a result, people are even more invested in a system that is currupt and rigged from the very start. A great victory for the "elite" indeed.

Well it ain't over yet. This is going to drag on for some time yet and people will become even more invested.

My prediction is trump will win in the end but we will first be subjected to many days (or weeks) where it will look like Biden is going to win and then at the last second something will happen that gives it to Trump

Posted by: jinn | Nov 5 2020 15:19 utc | 54

"Maybe Trump and Biden could publicly draw straws to get over with it." Sound better then the circus i see now b.
The US is now a true 🍌republic armed with nukes.
It certainly terrifies me.

Norway(Fingers crossed,, naively hopeful that i live close enough to Russia so that they want it "clean" not to pollute Russia with the bi-effect of nuke/bio/chem weapons🤷‍♂️)

Posted by: Per/Norway | Nov 5 2020 15:22 utc | 55

William Gruff @45

I recently was made aware that some machines have the printed tabulator paper. I did not know we had those in these uSA.

Posted by: JaimeInTexas | Nov 5 2020 15:28 utc | 56

The election was bad for Democrats, but unless we get a surprise in Nevada, and Pennsylvania stays red, the Trump administration is over in January, and we'll have a divided government for at least two years.

I expect a lot of Biden Derangement Syndrome in the coming weeks and months. The fact of the matter is that Biden is not as bad as Trump in the sense of what harm he can do on the international stage and at home. Biden will maintain cozy relations with Taiwan, but probably not sell them weapons as often as Trump did. Biden will not do harm to the US and Chinese economies through a pointless trade war. Most importantly in the immediate term, Biden will let the CDC do its job and manage public health within the constitutional limits proscribed.

Trump was a disaster for the United States, there's no two ways about it. Two hundred thousand dead from the coronavirus was unnecessary, and 99% of those people would be alive today if not for the catastrophic failure of the Trump administration to manage the crisis. Trump has shown as commander in chief that he is exactly what people expected him to be: criminally incompetent. Where Trump has had business success it has been achieved through delegation (the classic capitalist path to success), and where he has micromanaged he has faltered hard. It will be good riddance to Trump, but to be effective opponents of the Biden administration will require sobriety of analysis and a disavowal of Great Men theories of history which ascribe ultimate importance to who is in power rather than the structures and institutions which people collectively create (consciously or not) and which bound the advance of history.

The Biden administration does not deserve an ounce of the fretting I've seen about it. It will be a mediocre, one term, administration. It will be interesting what creatures emerge from the depths of the Republican party to challenge the Democrats in 2024. Unless Biden tacks left in line with public opinion, I think resentment will drive a GOP victory in 2024 as it did in 2016.

Posted by: fnord | Nov 5 2020 15:28 utc | 57

Circe @50

After another pause in counting and miracle ballots being found.

Posted by: JaimeInTexas | Nov 5 2020 15:29 utc | 58

oglalla @Nov5 13:06 #16

My prediction failed but I'm happy that neither Trump nor Biden will a strong President after this election.

My prediction stemmed from what I saw as a movement toward war. But this election will make it difficult for the next President to rally the country to war.

Still, as you suggest (and many other have noted as well), Biden - or Kamala with Hillary as VP - will continue the same EMPIRE FIRST policies that have been in place for decades.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 5 2020 15:29 utc | 59

@vig #31
You said:

What I find more curious in the US are the polls. Is it only a problem of bad research designs, questions asked, do people respond differently based on that, or are Germans more easy to poll? I read a lot about tricking the pollster on SST in recent years. There is of course the by now really curious explanation, people don't like to tell the pollster that they in fact support Trump.

I posted many articles in the past 2 Open Threads and b's politics threads talking about this.
James Cahaly of Trafalgar - which is the one pollster that was 100% accurate in 2016 and quite accurate (not 100%) in 2018 - has a thesis as follows:
1) Conservatives are 1/5th as likely to respond to a pollster as a liberal. But Never-Trumpers - conservatives who hate Trump - are "much more likely" to respond to polls vs. their conservative peers.
2) Most mainstream polls are solely telephone based - which in turn means they are based on voter databases. This is problematic because
3) Insufficient sample size. Cahaly says samples need to be at least 1000 - many MSM polls are 500-600.
4) Poor methodology, especially combined with 3). In particular - if conservatives are undersampled but the responses are scaled up to fit (see 1) then it is easy to get large and consistent errors.

Dan Cassino wrote in Harvard Business Review in 2016 that:
a) Only 15% of pollster calls are picked up due to Caller ID - this means there can be huge parts of the population undersampled and no one would ever know. Cahaly/Trafalgar use 6 methods to reach voters (live caller, robot phone, text, email and 2 proprietary)
b) Voter databases don't capture new registered voters. Republicans supposedly have out-registered Democrats in the past 3 elections (2016, 2018, 2020).

Basically - good pollsters will use additional sources to sanity check their poll setup and results. US Census data comparing racial/sex/age demographic profiles in a given area vs responder demographics is one way to find a systematic error and eliminate it. But there is no such data for religion or political affiliation. Combine this with the 15% low sample rate - it means there can be entire groups that are not sampled and no one would ever know.

Cassino also notes that groups that don't vote much - if they consistently don't vote much and also aren't sampled right, it doesn't matter. But if these groups are energized - like Trump did with the non-college educated males in 2016 - then the undersampling is a problem.

Net net: MSM polls have now clearly demonstrated that they're useless. The error this time was worse than 2016, not better despite 4 years of supposed improvement.
To remind you: Trump actually was leading in the MSM polls in most of the swing states in 2016. He was ahead in the MSM polls in 7 of the 11 swing states, and won 9. Trump actually lost 1 state which the MSM polls had him ahead in but won 3 where he was behind - significantly so in 2 cases.
In 2020 - MSM polls had Trump leading in 1 (AZ which it looks like Trump lost) and behind or tied in the other 10. He has won 5 for sure, 1 is lost and 3 are the ones in dispute now.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 5 2020 15:31 utc | 60


Posted by: I have paid! | Nov 5 2020 15:32 utc | 61

I wanna see that orange blob manbaby throwing fits and tantantrums blubbering into his soup by suppertime!

Come on people, count those votes; every last one of them! This is truly, truly a priceless moment in history.

🎶Georgia, Georgia, the whole day through
Just an old sweet song
That keeps Georgia on my mind
I said Georgia
O I said Georgia
A song, a song of you🎶

Oh hell... just hear it from the Master of Soul, himself!

Oh yeah baby, now that's what I call, The Soul of America!

Posted by: Circe | Nov 5 2020 15:38 utc | 62

Something doesnt sit right with this counting, Arizona, Alaska, North Carolina, Georgia should have been finished counting long time ago.

"Oh look, they just happened to find 25,000 more ballots out of nowhere as they approached the final count in Georgia this morning. Totally legit, nothing to see here."

The act of “finding votes” veers from coincidence to strange when it happens repeatedly and overwhelmingly in one direction. Any sentient person would find it bizarre. Oh, and in the states it *needed* to happen. And always in the middle of the night.

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 5 2020 15:39 utc | 63

If momentum will be built until December 8th, it may mean that Venezuela would go to elections on December 6th undisturbed, just 4 or 5 weeks from now.

Any thoughts?

Posted by: Andres | Nov 5 2020 15:40 utc | 64



That's the best thing that could happen."

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Nov 5 2020 14:59 utc | 49

Ok, but now try to see the situation from the standpoint of a True Dissenter to the usury system and the empire.
Do you really believe we can change a system by voting on system vetted candidates chosen by And from the system?
That would be like repairing and engine with the broken parts. would it not?

Posted by: Per/Norway | Nov 5 2020 15:49 utc | 65

i would just take this pen and flatly say that everything you say is pure immaculate BS but then I realized I actually didn't catch what you mean.

I mean that there are two herds of about equal size and trump is masterfully herding both of them.

As an example of what I'm saying. The leader of one of the herds was picked by trump to be their leader and propelled into the position of leader of that herd by trump. That herd was not about to let trump tell them who to vote for so they nominated the lamest of all candidates.

The Mueller investigation is another example of trump's sheep herding abilities.
Trump appointed Rosenstein and then soon after Rosenstein is confirmed trump meets with him and Mueller and the next day Rosenstein appoints mueller and for two years mueller leads the herds through the weeds until they're exhausted.
Ukraingate was another example of Trumps leading the herds on a wold chase through the weeds until they are exhausted.

The counting (or recounting) of the election looks like it will follow the same basic formula. It will drag out with the continuous promise that when its over Trump will be done and poof trump gets four more years.

The basic formula is leading the herds on a circuitous journey that makes them believe they are following a path that will destroy trump but at the last minute trump emerges the winner. And no matter how many times they pull this same stunt the herds never catch on.

Posted by: jinn | Nov 5 2020 15:53 utc | 66

My prediction stemmed from what I saw as a movement toward war. But this election will make it difficult for the next President to rally the country to war.

No it won't. Trump will have no problem at all mustering support for war.

Posted by: jinn | Nov 5 2020 15:55 utc | 67

I am starting to wonder if they will need to do a second run of the election, go back to zero and do it with straightforward rules that are the same in every state. This might take years to implement. From outside, the current system with mail and absentee ballots, in some places coming in well after election day, seems complicated. I don't even get how they want to exclude people registering for election multiple times in different states with their mess of different ID cards and lack of a common national passport.

Posted by: Martin | Nov 5 2020 15:58 utc | 68

Yeah it does seem very odd that 90% of votes can be counted overnight, and the last 10% or so then take a whole week??? It stinks of incompetence or deliberate delays to favour media outlet ratings... no idea on the specifics of vote counting, but something just doesn't add up to me.

As for the rest... yeah, bring on the violence and colour revolution chaos, hopefully it will distract Americans from enforcing all that evil onto the rest of the world and get a good taste of it for themselves for a change.

Posted by: Et Tu | Nov 5 2020 15:59 utc | 69

"I see this election as positive. So many sacred cows gored. So many people - regardless of who wins President - are going to be energized/angry. This hopefully focuses attention on the huge list of things which need to be fixed so that there is a chance they will be.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 5 2020 15:10 utc | 53

Yes, I agree, hopefully they will spend the entire 4 years tearing at each other. This was an energizing election, and the outcome could have been a lot worse.

The way I interpret the high-turnout/close-race is a lot of people showed up to vote against one or the other, not for one or the other.

Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 5 2020 16:00 utc | 70

Great quote:

That the Democrats lose House seats, do not win the Senate and barely manage to drag their demented presidential candidate towards a stalemate tells a lot about their lack of sane policies. A donor party completely disinterested in what the people really want - medicare for all, no fracking etc. - will have little chance to survive a future onslaught of conservatives with a more competent figure head than Donald Trump.

Posted by: Mike from Jersey | Nov 5 2020 16:01 utc | 71

"Trumpism is only going to grow" - a wrong name for a correct phenomenon. Popular discontent with elite decisions will, under a narrowly elected Biden, be more attracted to and concentrated to the far right of center. Already, the USA is a much more dangerous place, and more ideologically entrenched, as a right wing harbor country than nazi Germany was in the 30-ies. Switch out the Jews for whatever foreigner (especially those who don't like the US spoilt child Israel), and you see the true successor of fascist Germany. Trump is but a symptom, but if he looses - which looks likely, also without it getting to the Supreme Court - then his intended new media venture is likely to boost his flag-symbol of the far right, reactionary movement. Trump is also much more effective as such a chaotic catalyst than he could have ever been in his presidency - 4 or 8 years.

Posted by: Josh V | Nov 5 2020 16:07 utc | 72

It seems that the Market doesn't care who is elected. The important is that Republicans keep the Congress as it will block any legislation that Biden will propose!!!
Biden or Trump, the only thing that will change is foreign policy and no one knows if it will be for the better . Anyway Trump in his second mandate would not need anymore to make presents to Israel to get votes. I think that he will squeeze Israel to move to a peace deal with Palestinians. He will also try to mend relation with Iran. Biden will continue licking the Jewish lobby's to ensure his post mortem reelection in four years!!.... Zionist and democrats will do a war mambo!

Posted by: Virgile | Nov 5 2020 16:15 utc | 73

Circe, you foul your own nest if you claim to be a Democrat. The one sensible thing I heard Biden say was that he would accept the result when all votes had been properly counted. That hasn't happened yet. And please, for those of us who are Christians (there are a few who read here) do not take the name of the Lord in vain. If you must say hallelujah, say it to Caesar, not Christ. (I ask that gently so as not to arouse your ire, though no doubt I will.) You accused b of incitement when he was merely observing the US scene from afar.

It is you who seems bent on incitement. Calm down.

Posted by: juliania | Nov 5 2020 16:16 utc | 74

c1ue@53 is not content with crank versions of constitutional history but spouts ignorant twaddle about contemporary society and politics as well.

Among the psychopathic claims are the idea that it is the Democratic Party, as opposed to the Republic (NOT A DEMOCRACY!) Party that opposes Medicare for All.

In the same comment that calls Nate Silver a moron, a single exit poll is treated as gospel. Exit polls are even more unreliable than polls of likely voters. More subtly, the notion that the percentages of the votes can be compared so simply when the turnout was so much greater this election is, well, incompetent. You need to compare the turnout by demographic for 2016 *at this year's participation rates.* If you think this cannot even be done, you may well be right. Twitter is not the place for a counterfactual analysis, either.

Gloating over how McConnell will strangle any stimulus so that the "Blue" states will go bankrupt and cut vital services, quite aside from the contemptible disdain for humanity, assumes that magically only the Blue states are in crisis, which a revelation from the God Trump for believers like c1ue but a delusion about reality. Also it falsifies the real rich people program which is to get the US government out of the business of providing services to the mass of the population, and dedicate it solely to servicing the lords of creation, i.e., themselves.

The idea that the Democrats are the "apologists" for deregulation is contradicted by years and years of Republic (NOT A DEMOCRACY!) Party propaganda about socialist Obama, Democrats, etc. But that was always a damned lie. There are quite a few Democrats who are for regulation, but many Democrats are conservatives, with the same servile obedience to their betters. The thing is, of course, it was always a damned lie to claim Trump was anything but a right-wing thug with the same morally and intellectually bankrupt ideas.

White racism, white nationalism, jingoism, are all, everyone one of them, "identitarian." Trump has nothing but identity politics. Nobody honestly believes Trump is anti-war, or economically nationalist, or anything else. All he has is racism.

It was the false interpretation of the Trump rallies' "energy" vs. Biden that led to the equally moronic anticipations of a Trump landslide. Ignoring the verdict of voting returns on this obsequious flattery of Trump, a nonexistent landslide is not a permanent breach of the Democrat's alleged stranglehold on the lowers, er, minorities. The Republic (NOT A DEMOCRACY!) Party is too committed to white identity politics to say this. The whole reason for the parties to line up on false issues like identity is because they aren't different enough on economics, i.e., class.

Last, there is no PMC in the sense meant. This stupid attempt to substitute an incompetent parody of class into political conversation is due to a phobia of Marxism, or indeed any scientific understanding of history and society. Indeed, reason itself is suspect in the eyes of the c1ues.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Nov 5 2020 16:21 utc | 75

Some British humour on the American election.

Of course Canada remains mindful of the need to maintain absolute silence so as not to thrust an authoritarian wrench into the sophisticated democratic machine humming along to the south of us.

«Some analysts, who have seen the fallout of authoritarianism first-hand, say silence was the only option.

"Canada and other allies need to stay quiet, except for statements supportive of an orderly democratic process. What happens in these next hours and days is being watched very carefully around the world by legitimately elected leaders, dictators and coup leaders alike," said Michael Bociurkiw, a Canadian who worked for the Organization for Security Co-operation in Ukraine for two years following Russia's invasion of Ukraine's Crimea region in 2014.

Bociurkiw said the silence is imperative even though Trump's remarks strike him as "something that we might have expected to come out of the mouth of someone like Vladimir Putin, who's a master at fomenting chaos, causing confusion." »

Posted by: Quasi retired anonym | Nov 5 2020 16:27 utc | 76

@Posted by: Zanon | Nov 5 2020 12:43 utc | 8

A clear sign pointing out at that they are not so left-wing in the end, but white militias´ and certain police precints´ associated riotters in disguise, as some of us pointed out on the weirdness of some past riotts in the US and that CHAZ strange leadership, when the demos, like those at Washington DC were mainly peaceful until these riotters appeared...most of them white,as the policeman with the umbrella smashing businesses windows so clearly showed..

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Nov 5 2020 16:29 utc | 77

To Martin @ 68, this from a comment at the Saker post on the election:

"... all this could be avoided with a few simple rules for voting in USA, which, by the by, is not a ‘democracy’ but a Constitutional Republic. There is a difference. Here’s what I propose:

1. It is not up to the election committees to make sure your name is on the voting rosters, it is your responsibility as a citizen, part of your right to vote. Too lazy to take the time to go down to your local voter admin and check in the year before the election? Whose fault is that?

2. So, you did things properly and you show up to vote at your local precinct. Problem is you chose the wrong one and you are not registered for that location. (Remember, make sure you are registered and registered correctly.) So, you are politely advised to go to the proper location you are registered in because you can’t vote at this one. You do so and arrive at your registered voting location and in you go, past the one lone policeman standing outside and looking bored. Kindly notice all the cameras watching you from ever nook and cranny of the building and actual voting room you go in to….and said cameras are recording everything on archive systems, two of them.

3. Prepare to have your identification with current picture and address ready. Join the line that is for the first letter of your last name and when at the voting desk your ID is asked for. Said picture ID is checked, your name is found on the voting list and checked off, your ID is photocopied at this desk and the photocopy put with the voting list containing your name. You are then handed a paper ballot. If you don’t have proper ID, you can’t vote. If your ID does not match the registered informations on the voting lists, you can’t vote. If the ID looks ‘altered’ in any way, you can’t vote and you will become instant friends with the bored policeman at the door, who is no longer bored.

4. So, you have your paper ballot in hand and you politely wait for one of the curtained voting booths to be free. In you go and using the provided pen (never trust them to provide a pen, always bring one ‘just in case’) you mark your choice or choices for the current voting process. You then fold the ballot in half (sigh….yes, the printed section that you just checked off should be on the INSIDE of the fold…usually), exit the little curtained voting booth, advance the the clear plastic, heavily sealed, locked and guarded by two cops actual ballot box sitting in all it’s pristine glory on the floor in the center of the room, insert your folded ballot in to the box under the watchful eyes of the cops, smile at them and exit the precinct.

5. If you are certified invalid who can not physically come to your voting precinct, precinct will come to you. Special vehicles with two armed guards, two election workers and one clark come to you. In they come to your abode, your picture ID is checked and photocopied, your name is checked off on the voter list, the locked and sealed clear ballot box is brought in to you, you are handed a ballot, you mark said ballot and you personally insert the ballot in the box, said box held for you to accomplish this task. You are thanked for doing your civic duty of voting, the officials, cops and ballot box exit your abode and go to the next abode on the list.

6. No mail in vote, period. No ‘absentee’ votes. Period. Current picture and address ID only is allowed in voting process. If you are out of country, you go to your local embassy and vote there, same security and ID system is in Embassy. If you for whatever reason can not make it to precinct or embassy, that is not Government’s problem, it is your problem. If you can not exercise your right to vote by following the rules, that is your problem, not Government’s problem and Voting Officialdom have done everything the law requires for you to vote.

Whose voting system do you think I just described?"


Posted by: juliania | Nov 5 2020 16:30 utc | 78

sad to see emojis make their way here

Posted by: ld | Nov 5 2020 16:32 utc | 79

Trump's KKKult supporters are harassing counting centres of course with the dog whistle encouragement and direction of their yellow-belly, loser Leader Trump. They're schizo demands to Stop the Vote! in Detroit, Philly and Atlanta where most of the diversity vote exists contradict their cries to Count the Vote! in Arizona. That's how dishonest and racist they are!

Don't they know that Arizona has a steadily growing Latino population that was heavily involved in Democratic GOTV efforts? Plus there's the x-factor I mentioned last night and no, it's not relating to the ballot processing! I'm counting on the x-factor to prevail cause I believe karma and irony are the best teachers and together their lesson is indelible. We'll see if my wish comes full circle.

For now it's on-track to reveal itself both in Georgia and in Arizona. However, wish or no wish, I'm for vote counting everywhere. Let it all unfold as it was meant to!

On another note, @79 ld-- only if one doesn't know how to use them.

Posted by: Circe | Nov 5 2020 16:39 utc | 80

The entire world is in limbo, waiting for the next shoe to drop, and then the shoe after that.

Massive corruption and voter fraud by the Left is threatening to overthrow our elected government. If you live in an area where votes are supposedly still being counted, you need to make your voice heard.

Posted by: Joe | Nov 5 2020 16:41 utc | 81

The Left is saying Biden will win the election, while political pundits on the Right, are saying they expect Trump to win. It appears highly probable that the election will be decided by the Supreme Court. That doesn't leave me feeling optimistic. Judges like John Roberts have shown themselves to be traitors in the past and they could sell their entire country out once again.

Posted by: Jimmy | Nov 5 2020 16:42 utc | 82

Across the country, the rioters are all on standby, just waiting for the GO signal. The sheriff of Los Angeles, who might be a closet Trump supporter, has said there will be zero tolerance for post-election rioting.

Posted by: Ed | Nov 5 2020 16:43 utc | 83

Another surprising outcome this week was a decision to almost double the minimum wage in pro-business Florida to $15 an hour.

The state’s Chamber of Commerce and Governor Ron DeSantis furiously opposed the amendment. Donald Trump carried Florida by a comfortable margin, but his stance that establishing a living wage is bad for the economy, was ignored.

The ballot measure passed 61 to 39, triggering an automatic bump to the $8.56 minimum hourly rate to $10 and gradually phasing in $1 increases to 2026.

The unforeseen rejection of GOP anti-labor economic orthodoxy in a state that went solidly red in 2020 is as telling as California’s resounding “No” to Affirmative Action.

Posted by: Ed | Nov 5 2020 16:44 utc | 84

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 5 2020 15:10 utc | 53
PMC crowd?? PMC?

As average German I am not so good with acronyms ...

Posted by: vig | Nov 5 2020 16:45 utc | 85

This is going to come across as completely off topic. It is not. This goes to who counts the votes, particularly who counts votes in Waukesha County Wisconsin.

Three years ago I got a phone call from the Waukesha County Jail. It was an older woman I had met just the day before. Made no sense at all she should be calling from jail. But I know what the One Phone Call is and I was pretty sure this lady was not a criminal or crazy or a con artist. After fifteen seconds of frantic pleas the call connected to a recorded message. This was a collect call. They wanted credit card numbers. I would be billed $50 for this call. I agreed to drive 1-1/2 hours north and get her. She was half out of her mind.

Attempted to call Waukesha even to find out exactly where I should go. Nothing but bureaucracy. Totally non responsive.

I get there and the deputies bring her out. This is a 76 year old woman who weighs perhaps 95 pounds (43 kilos for non-US). She is being manhandled by two 250 pound deputies. She is handcuffed. Thumbs taped back so this mastermind does not slip the cuffs. Cuffs secured to metal waistband. Leg irons. Leg irons also chained to waistband. Basically hogtied with chains. The deputies tell me how dangerous she is.

The lady had been pulled over for a burned out taillight. The officer considered that she had talked back. The ultimate offense. She was too flustered to remember any numbers. The deputies went to her cellphone and pulled my phone# from a directory. Had been held overnight. I almost took her to hospital but succeeded in calling her son, an attorney, who drove north at 100mph and met us at a nearby coffee shop very shortly.

The son retained local counsel, paid $5000, the matter was entirely dismissed. Son characterized the entire incident as a straight gang shakedown. I would add it was basically a third world shakedown.

These are the people who count the vote. When there is that level of rot in the Sheriffs Department just no way it is any different in other county offices. Stop pretending government is functional in US.

One more time. These are not state or federal elections. Counties run elections. Any news reporter goes down to county level and tries to get anyone to talk to him will be pulled over for a burned out taillight

Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 5 2020 16:46 utc | 86

In each political turf, the identity of any qualified contender who receives a number of petition signatures equal to 1 out of the population total divided by 5,000 should appear on paper ballots, last name first, in alphabetical order. Voters who identify themselves via a pre-registration process should insert their ballots into secrecy-secure physical ballot boxes at local polling places, on a legal holiday, with transportation provided by the local government if required. Mail-in ballots should be limited to voters who cannot be transported, and be sent directly to the local poling places.

With simple score voting each voter would be able to assign from zero to ten votes to as many candidates on the ballot as they prefer. At the end of the election day, the boxes should be opened, and the granted votes immediately added up on-the-spot at the polling places. The number of votes granted to all contenders who received votes are to be publicly announced prior to those results being sent up to larger tabulation facilities.

These procedures provide the most effective means of escape from the so-called 'two party system', which is more generally described as corporate foundation-fronted, perceived viability, two (or too few) party lock-in.

Election systems that are complex, allow secretaries of state and election administrators to 'adjust' individual ballots when weakest contenders are set aside, and require a flow of enormous quantities of information traffic will always be compromised and exploited by individuals who are addicted to power and money. With simple score, everything is kept a simple as possible to avoid this. Do not let the very insecure ranked choice voting become the only enemy of the horribly dreadful single selection voting we suffer with currently.

Despite 'common wisdom', the most urgent task of politicians is simply to defend the interests of all of the residents in their turf. Once they are reduced to representing minority factions, social strife will inevitably increase to the point of the emergence of a failed state.

Posted by: blues | Nov 5 2020 16:46 utc | 87

One thing Circe and Schumer agree upon: "It was the Russians".

"The Russians want us to lose faith in democracy and feel that elections aren’t on the level, no matter what party’s in charge," Schumer told reporters Tuesday afternoon. "Mitch McConnell is aiding and abetting it by refusing to do anything."
- Chuck Schumer May 2019

Me, I had to laugh when even Obama echoed the same screed.

How about it, Circe, how long until Dementiacrats accuse Trump AGAIN of assisting the Russians when he brings lawsuits to stop the Dementiacrat election fraud? Or has it already happened?

"It was the Russians"
- Circe


I voted for Howie Hawkins and Angela Walker.
But want the Dementiacrat Party to become a trivia question.

Posted by: librul | Nov 5 2020 16:47 utc | 88

Now we have dead people voting Democrat, all I can do is laugh at this point.

Posted by: TJ | Nov 5 2020 16:47 utc | 89

The full-court gaslighting psyop of the US public on the massive vote "counting" [ie domestic prez election nullification/ color revolution operation] unfolding right in front of our eyes, by *all* the US cable media (including FOX), is shocking to watch.

Not sure how long these links will stay up:

-~25 min YT of post-Nov 3 vote deadline/early am Nov 4 video recordings of unsecured/containers being wheeled into the (closed to counting for night, and with no official ballot counting witnesses present inside) Cobo Hall Detroit Counting Center by un-badged persons without security measures or authorized escort accompanying them.


Posted by: gm | Nov 5 2020 16:54 utc | 90

Forgive an old man’s reminiscences of days gone by, long ago, in Illinois, where election stealing at least had style if no class:

Ah 1960, by today’s standards it was near halcyon times. When crooked politics was done with a little style if not class. Even the mob boys kept their violence mainly in house so as not to disturb the natives.

As for the Daley machine, well of course favors were granted or withheld, everyone knew the routine. And yet, the city of Chicago was likely run better and more efficiently than ever since.

Bar owning alderman Paddy Bauler a German wise enough to adopt an Irish name in electoral endeavors, campaign slogan was, “Reform? Chicago ain’t ready for reform!”. He won easily. When asked by reporters how many people occupied the several apartments above his bar he replied in all honesty, “depends on how many votes I need”. Today there is a statue of the great man in a lovely city park named after him. Paddy got things done. Which was the purpose of the machine.

Was it right? Wrong? Take your pick. All in all, it was a better class of crooks. Not hidden by platitudes and graft still common today. And what they seldom mention is that the downstate GOP of the times was as corrupted as the Daley machine. It was/is Illinois politics after all, a time tested tradition carried on sadly, less effectively in the present.

Posted by: dbrize | Nov 5 2020 16:58 utc | 91

The Secretary of State in Georgia stated a few minutes ago that this is the first time Georgia has used paper ballots in 20 YEARS! WOW!

Which leads one to wonder: how many results were rigged between 2000 and 2020?

One of the few positive outcomes of Covid: PAPER TRAIL. (which Trump has been ironically railing against)

One also has to wonder, would we be witnessing Georgia turning blue otherwise? Hell, maybe Georgia was this blue since 2000 and we're just finding out about it now...thanks to paper mail-in ballots!

Posted by: Circe | Nov 5 2020 17:04 utc | 92

Ed @84

At the same time those California Über Alles voted in favor of the right wing, anti-labor Proposition 22. It is crap like this that allows me to say with supreme confidence that these white middle class faux left kids in the US have no clue at all when they virtue signal about being socialists and anti-fascists and anti-racists. They have no feckin` idea what the words even mean except that they think the words are ones that annoy Trump.

I sure do wish that they were real socialists, but they are not even close.

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 5 2020 17:07 utc | 93

Posted by: Smith | Nov 5 2020 12:30 utc | 4

What do you mean "last year didn't take this long?" Did you mean 2016?

For a good primer on how this whole thing is going to go down, I recommend reading up on the 2000 U.S. presidential election. This year is following the same process, but in multiple states, not just Florida. It was the famous "hanging chads" that cost Al Gore the initial count, but the courts that ultimately ceased the (re)counting in FL. This time Trump is seeking to have the mail in ballots not counted according to various claims that differ by state.

Whether you meant "last year" or "last presidential election" the simple fact is that there were nowhere near the number of mail-in ballots as this year and the USPS wasn't in the process of being gutted any more than normal. There is a reason that Trump and the Republicans have been leaning so heavily on claims of fraud in the mail ballot votes for so long. They knew it would lean Democrat.

In other news, something good did come out of this election. A Clean Sweep in Drug Reform Initiatives

It would seem that, when it's put on the ballot, there IS a policy that both Democrat and Republican VOTERS can agree on. That's why the Democrat and Republican POLITICIANS fight so hard not to let it get on the ballot.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 5 2020 17:11 utc | 94

A Biden Presidency will hold no surprises.
His public support for fracking in Pennsylvania- which almost certainly cost him the State- is a perfect example of what his administration will do.
First it will crack down on poor people and Blacks in particular as he seeks to attract those who voted for Trump.
Second he will make a big display of support for Israel and opposition to Iran. Every effort will be made to rope in Turkey to a campaign against Syria.
As Biden has promised, nothing will change- in Yemen children will continue to starve except for the relatively lucky few who are killed by fragmentation and high explosive bombs. Lebanon will be attacked from Israel using weapons which are on the very cusp of nuclear.
The last couple of decades have demonstrated that the US is a society incapable of reforming itself- every one of its institutions is riven with corruption so profound that any improvement will depend upon intervention from overseas either in the form of economic collapse or military defeats of the sort that they cannot be spun-as were Iraq and Afghanistan- into victories. The bog question is how many other countries will be dragged down when the US falls.
Prime candidates at the moment are the Five (blind) Eyes, with the UK being the most certain since the Corbyn option was removed. And then there is Israel which has cleverly joined itself at the hip to a geopolitical corpse.

(TJ@89: Dead people have been voting Democrat (and Republican) since the Republic's first dawning. It is part of the American dream to achieve immortality by being 'voted' until Hell freezes over. It is very likely that people who died before 1776 voted this week for Biden.)

Posted by: bevin | Nov 5 2020 17:11 utc | 95

The only thing worse than b grousing like a Proud Boy is the echo chamber showing up to second him.

I agree with Ralph Conner @39: scream loud and incessantly about fraud (without a shred of proof) to try to get the partisan SCOTUS to again select the POTUS.

Look folks - and repeating myself - many states instituted expanded mail-in voting as a rational response to the Covid situation. BY LAW many of those states were not allowed to begin counting those votes until election day. If you seriously look at the physical process of doing that, only those in complete irrational denial could refuse to see that it takes some time to do that.

It was expected - again repeating myself - that mail-ins would probably favor Biden and D's generally since the Covid situation has been politicized into absurdity. It was also expected that the in-person election day voting would favor Trump, for the same reasons. NOTHING THAT HAS HAPPENED SO FAR WAS NOT EXPECTED OR PREDICTED.

I think it's pretty funny that Trump and his increasingly restive supporters are screaming to stop the counting where he is losing ground, but continuing to count the votes in Arizona is working in his favor. COUNT ALL THE FUCKING VOTES - PERIOD.

Again, I'm not pre-supposing a winner. If this nation, comprised as it is of propagandized partisan tribalism can't survive the wait for an accurate count and then yes a re-count of ALL OF IT if it is necessary, then we are a nation of children and idiots. Let it take as long as it takes, so long as WHOMEVER eventually wins, we will be confident of the result.

But I don't believe we are a nation of children and idiots. I believe the political class is completely corrupt and does not serve its citizens, but they are not us; they have been captured by the wealthy and the powerful. A few observations. I saw the long lines on Tuesday and how orderly and patient those in line were, socially distancing and wearing masks, and those were - in the main - Trump voters. This morning I took a little drive around my locale, and like magic all of the yard sign litter - like an aggressive fungus - was almost completely gone. Halle-fuckin-leujah! Seems that everyone here, as partisan as they may be, really want to put this season behind them.

I understand the desire by non-Americans and expats to see rioting, violence, and societal collapse here in the US. To be expected after decades of crimes against humanity that are globe-spanning. But, be very careful of what you wish for: that sort of breakdown can only result in a fascist totalitarian state, and if you think that the US can't bring more pain than has already been caused, you may find yourself very mistaken.

Uncle Tungsten: I was OFFERED an appointment to West Point but did not accept. Don't know what the BT experience is like today but in '72 we took a battery of aptitude tests for about 10 days and when it was over myself and another guy were summoned to the Brigade Commander's office. We both turned down the offer. The CO was livid - probably a graduate of some rinky-dink southern military academy, and everyone knows that there is no possibility of attaining the rank of General officer without the imprimatur of WP. I enlisted not out of any sense of patriotic responsibility but because my life was going nowhere, thought I would wake up one morning in the bottom of a tequila bottle, and my 3yr enlistment was not based on honorable intentions. I was a very screwed-up young man and thankfully survived being a trained airborne infantryman without having to be deployed to try to kill others and have others try to kill me. I was also offered an appointment to "The White Owls," an army detachment in DC that provided journalistic reporting to Army publications. Turned that down also; there were things in my young past that would have been exposed that not only would have precluded me, but probably would have landed me on some kind of "watch" list. I have lived what I consider to be a very lucky and almost charmed life, considering the many places and situations my foolishness brought me to.

Posted by: vinnieoh | Nov 5 2020 17:12 utc | 96

Per/Norway 65:

What is wrong with making the Imperialist States of Amerikastan ungovernable?

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Nov 5 2020 17:15 utc | 97

vinnieoh #96 - wow, excellent comment ... no life worth living is without its ups and downs.

Re the meat of the article, oh we can count votes b; it's our respect for federalism, which is a bedrock and precious aspect of our governance that gets us in hot water sometimes. States have their own rules and that's the way we likes it, it's definitely worth it and, in fact, needs to be expanded.

If it was just about counting votes for president, Biden would have already won by more than 3.5 million (and counting :)) votes. But it's about counting states and we'll get there eventually.

Posted by: Caliman | Nov 5 2020 17:19 utc | 98

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 5 2020 17:07 utc | 93

Wow. I hadn't seen that. I don't follow the horse race most of the time. But the Prop 22 thing in Cali is indeed disturbing. I wonder what the ads were like and who sponsored the bill in the CA state legislature. Looks to me like the Sillycone Valley spent some good money getting that one rammed through and probably a good deal more on the advertisement campaign. Passed by a healthy margin, too. Not even close. Sad.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 5 2020 17:19 utc | 99

Re: Proposition 22 in California. Just as I suspected:

"Billionaire [corporations] just hijacked the ballot measure system in CA by spending millions to mislead voters," a coalition of gig workers opposing Prop 22 said on Twitter. "Uber, Lyft, & the other gig [companies] took a ballot measure system meant to give voice to ordinary Californians and made it benefit the richest [corporations] on the planet."

Same as it ever was other than the increasingly obscene amounts of money being spent to buy the legislatures and electorate.

Good Twitter thread on the matter here

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 5 2020 17:24 utc | 100

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