Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 11, 2020

How Trump Might Still Win

Trump currently seems likely to lose the fight over the election outcome. So far he has not shown any evidence that a significant extend of fraud has happened. While there will always be some votes in doubt the numbers in play now are not large enough to explain Biden's presumed victory. The courts are therefore likely to reject Trump's current challenges.

The media, including Murdoch's stable of right wing organs and the social media giants, have firmly declared a Biden victory and are thereby of no help for Trump.

But the Republican Party and Trump will want to keep fear, uncertainty and doubt alive at least until January 5 when the two Senate run-offs in Georgia get decided.

While the Republican incumbents are leading the race the Democrats will put a lot of resources into the state to move those seats to their side. They would give a Harris/Biden administration control over the Senate.

It is also possible that Trump may actually try to stay in office by manipulating the Electoral College process.

There are several more steps and deadline in the elaborate election process for the presidency.

  • Dec  8 - States determine their electors for the Electoral College.
  • Dec 14 - Electors meet in their states to cast their votes for the new President and Vice President.
  • Dec 23 - Certificates of the electoral vote results get delivered to the president of the Senate, who is Vice President Mike Pence
  • Jan  3 - Members of Congress are sworn in.
  • Jan  6 - Congress meets to count the electoral votes and declare the results.

Trump could, even without finding the necessary votes, (ab-)use the Electoral College process to shift the result to his side. He can try to block or delay certifications in certain states and/or he can push Republican state legislators to appoint Trump electors.

There is precedence for that from the 1876 election:

Then as now, each state must decide on a group of electors to meet with a joint session of Congress on January 6 where the winner of the presidential election is declared. The normal practice in a state where Biden won the popular-vote total would be for state election officials to certify the results and send a slate of electors to Congress. But state legislatures have the constitutional authority to conclude that the popular vote has been corrupted and thus send a competing slate of electors on behalf of their state.
The 12th Amendment to the Constitution specifies that the “President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted.” That means that in the case of disputes about competing electoral slates, the President of the Senate—Vice President Pence—would appear to have the ultimate authority to decide which to accept and which to reject. Pence would choose Trump. Democrats would appeal to the Supreme Court.

Alternatively, if at that point, no candidate has the required 270 electoral votes, the 12th Amendment stipulates, “the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote.” Currently, Republicans have a state delegation majority with 26 of the 50 states and they appear almost certain to keep that majority in the new Congress. A vote of the states would then elect President Trump for a second term. And again, Democrats would appeal that outcome to the Supreme Court.

In both cases the Supreme Court, with six of its nine judges nominated by Republicans, is likely to find in favor of Trump.

There are some variants of such a play:

If a lawsuit successfully stops certification of results in a state, legislators there could step into the void and pick a pro-Trump slate of electors.
  • The lawyer, who requested anonymity to speak about the scenario, said Trump's team now appears to be trying to throw enough dirt at the process for counting late ballots to argue that accurate results can't be ascertained.
  • The next step could be to try to get federal or state courts to enjoin secretaries of state from certifying results.
  • Any move to provide an alternative slate of electors could force the first real test of the Electoral Count Act of 1887 and could land before the Supreme Court.
  • Among the key swing states, Arizona and Georgia have GOP governors and legislatures. Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin have Democratic governors but GOP legislatures.

The Democrats are of course aware of such a possibility. They therefore play up the certainty of a Biden's victory even as the election process is far from decided.

But one should never count Trump out. Despite four years of getting Russiagate bullshit thrown at him he has managed to stay in office and to proceed with much of his program. He is also the first president in a 100 years who resisted the intense pressure to launch a new war. He is therefore unlikely to fold and to concede that he has lost the race.

There is only one person that could stop Trump from being successful with a 'dirty' Electoral College strategy. That is of course he himself. Over the last four years he has failed to select competent advisors. He will now need the best strategists and lawyers that are available. Jared Kushner and Rudi Giuliani will not do. Trump will also need the full backing of his party to put pressure on state legislators.  He will have to make concessions to get the necessary support.

Meanwhile we all, as bystanders, will have to up our popcorn supplies to sustain the next two month.

Posted by b on November 11, 2020 at 17:36 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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Thanks, b.

Posted by: beq | Nov 11 2020 17:47 utc | 1

I think we should let this process take it's course. It is in everybody's interest to get to the bottom of this! So let us see. I think there could well be large scale computer based fraud. I would be surprised if there is not!

Posted by: g kaiser | Nov 11 2020 17:48 utc | 2

Or Biden could simple announce that his first action as president will be a full investigation of any alleged voter fraud and that he would - of course - immediately step down should the investigation find that he has no majority. And then actually do an honest investigation.

Democracy can be such an easy thing.

Posted by: m | Nov 11 2020 18:00 utc | 3

There is strong indication of widespread systemic fraud. Those who say otherwise are speaking against their own knowledge. If you are so sure about the opposite, all you have to do is investigate the main allegations and prove you are right, but not just dismiss it.

An important analysis showing systemic fraud
MIT PhD Analysis of Michigan Votes Reveals Unfortunate Truth of U.S. Voting Systems.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ztu5Y5obWPk

Just a couple of other random samples

Woman Who Voted For Trump In Texas Shocked To Find She Also 'Voted' Via Mail-In-Ballot In California

Nevada Whistleblower: Workers Instructed to Process Illegitimate Ballots

The list goes on and on.

I agree with g kaiser. Let the process take it's course.

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 11 2020 18:06 utc | 4

Of course that is fantasy. But I'm sure happy that Trump is opening up the fallacy of the American system to the whole world. You can bet that the powers that be will get their pound of flesh from him after he leaves office. But this one is a done-deal. Trump is toast.

Posted by: Steve | Nov 11 2020 18:08 utc | 5

Maybe in theory you are right, but it does seem like a long shot, esp. with momentum building up, what with even foreign leaders congratulating Biden.

1 issue in the article is not quite right. You say he "resisted the intense pressure to launch a new war".
No, he did not resist: he assassinated Iran's Qassem Soleimani, and that was a declaration of war. It is only Iran's restraint that prevented war, NOT Trump's fortitude !!

Posted by: Ernesto Che | Nov 11 2020 18:08 utc | 6

That is Trump Fan-Fiction

How about discussing something which is actually under Trump's control. He is President until President-elect Biden is sworn-in on Jan 20, 2021. He could sabotage Biden by bombing Iran before he leaves office thinking that it would then be impossible to repair the damage he did by withdrawing from the JCPOA. If Biden argues for a ceasefire after U.S. troops are killed any concessions to Iran will look like appeasement.

Trump is now up to about 4 replacements in the Pentagon, he could be looking for yes-men who will not leak any pending plans to bomb Iran. Trump is locking out Biden's transition team and Trump is surrounded by bloodthirsty, Evangelical loons.

This looks like a perfect storm to me, the means and desire are there and also the 'War Powers Act' has been misinterpreted to mean that the President can shoot to kill for 60 days.

Posted by: Christian J. Chuba | Nov 11 2020 18:13 utc | 7

In both cases the Supreme Court, with six of its nine judges nominated by Republicans, is likely to find in favor of Trump.


Unlikely, even if Trump manages to use state legislatures like that in Wisconsin to reverse his loss in there. The Supreme Court would be setting a massive precedent; it would be saying: “votes don’t matter in presidential elections”--only wingnuts like Clarence Thomas believe that crap.


But one should never count Trump out. Despite four years of getting Russiagate bullshit thrown at him he has managed to stay in office and to proceed with much of his program. He is also the first president in a 100 years who resisted the intense pressure to launch a new war. He is therefore unlikely to fold and to concede that he has lost the race.

First sentence: And Trump’s attempts to invalidate Biden’s win are as full of shit as Russiagate.

Second sentence: Has nothing to do with anything here.

Third sentence: Doesn’t follow from either sentence 1 or 2, or any admixture of 1 and 2.

Posted by: Jay | Nov 11 2020 18:26 utc | 8


In 2012, Trump claimed that Obama's victory was "A sham." because of vote fraud. Like today, he offered no evidence to support his claim. In the 2016 Iowa caucus, Trump declared that his loss was the result of vote fraud. He offered no evidence to support his allegation. In 2016 Trump declared that he lost the popular vote by three million because of vote fraud. Of course, just as in his previous claims of fraud, Trump offered no evidence. The claim of vote fraud Trump is making today is his fourth. Just as in his three previous claims, he has offered nothing that could be considered by a court as evidence. My question to those who believe his latest claim is, did you also believe his previous allegations? If you did, on what evidence did you base that belief? If you didn't believe any of Trump's previous evidence-free claims of vote fraud, why do you believe this one? Have you considered the possibility that alleging fraud is Trump's standard operating procedure when he is faced with a result he doesn't like? If the Dems used fraud to steal this election, why didn't they also ensure that the won control of the Senate and held on to all their seats in the house?

Posted by: David | Nov 11 2020 18:30 utc | 9

Norwegian, 4:

No, there is not widespread evidence of "systemic" fraud in the 2020 presidential election.

There are known problems in US election systems, but that/those are largely a separate issue.

There is however significant evidence that Trump lost in 2016, so before the Electoral College "elected" him in Dec. 2016.


PS. Though Texas threatened to go for Biden, neither California nor Texas was a swing states in 2020. Your "but this individual ballot ended up" is akin to those claiming that the Jesus Onanism pun posted on Facebook is evidence the Russian State swung the 2016 election from HRC to DJT.

Posted by: Jay | Nov 11 2020 18:33 utc | 10

The more that Trump and the Republicans are seen to screw with the democratic process (such as it is in USA), the more bitter will be the resistance.

b's scenario where Pence chooses to recognize the electoral votes from some States and not others is just unrealistic. It might be possible but in reality the Deep State would rather have Biden than a civil war.

Trump has many complaints and lawsuits that are unfounded. But he has a Constitutional challenge in Pennsylvania and a recount of the very close race in Georgia. If he could manage to win in these two states (plus North Carolina where he has a comfortable lead), Biden would have only 270 electoral votes and a single faithless elector (selected by one of the Republican legislatures) could throw the race to the House of Representatives where Trump would win. Such an outcome would avoid direct manipulation by Trump/Trump Administration.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 11 2020 18:33 utc | 11

Norwegian, 4:

No, there is not widespread evidence of "systemic" fraud in the 2020 presidential election.

There are known problems in US election systems, but that/those are largely a separate issue.

There is however significant evidence that Trump lost in 2016, so before the Electoral College "elected" him in Dec. 2016.


PS. Though Texas threatened to go for Biden, neither California nor Texas was a swing states in 2020. Your "but this individual ballot ended up" is akin to those claiming that the Jesus Onanism pun posted on Facebook is evidence the Russian State swung the 2016 election from HRC to DJT.

Posted by: Jay | Nov 11 2020 18:33 utc | 12

g kaiser, 2:

Do you have any evidence to share regards widespread computer based voting fraud in the 2020 presidential election?

I can think of some regarding the 2016 general election; it indicates Trump lost.

Posted by: Jay | Nov 11 2020 18:36 utc | 13

There have already been many predictions and opinions, some have come true, some have not. My guess is that Biden's inauguration will take place, and it is entirely possible that Trump will be present, thereby voluntarily agreeing to transfer power. A "civil war" between supporters of Republicans and Democrats, too, most likely will not happen.

Either way, Biden is apparently the first American quasi-legitimate president.
Of course, there can be no question of the legality, transparency and democracy of the past elections. The winner in such "elections" a priori does not have full legitimacy. Even Lukashenko is more legitimate than Biden.

Posted by: alaff | Nov 11 2020 18:37 utc | 14

Three things are clear at this point.

1. Statistical analysis and factual testimony show that there was massive fraud in several key states.

2. This fraud has been organized for months by the democratic party and their oligarchic bosses.

3. If the fraud is allowed to stand, it sets a precedent. All future elections will now be determined by fraud.

It's now up to the supreme court to either oversee the preservation or the destruction of democracy in the U.S.

Posted by: dh-mtl | Nov 11 2020 18:38 utc | 15

Jay @ 12

Texas threatened to go Biden? Still drinking that Jonestown MSM kool aid? Biden won less counties in Texas than any Dem nominee ever.

Posted by: EoinW | Nov 11 2020 18:40 utc | 16

A close race is the worst possible outcome for those who live in the United States. In the advice to 'never let a crisis go to waste', it seems clear a project of destabilization is underway. Partisans will be partisans and are easily manipulated. 'American' society is a bushel of dry kindling beneath a keg of napalm. If the past summer of political 'protests' during a 'pandemic' is an indication, a mass of citizenry is itching for a fight.

The Democratic Party and Never Trump Establishment is aghast that 70+ million folks voted for a human wart. Which is precisely the point; the intensity of scorn felt against the Establishment. When an actual working-class populist comes along the American political landscape, she'll be swept into office.

In the meantime, which could last years, we won't have to lock-down from disease, but from each other.

Posted by: gottlieb | Nov 11 2020 18:40 utc | 17

Trump will not get "full backing" of the GOP to pressure Legislatures. GOP Old Money never liked him - he messed up their plan in 2016, insulted all their serious candidates, steamrolled to the nomination, ignored their Platform, ripped off the mask of WASPy politeness the GOP was still hiding behind, exposing and encouraging the racism, willful ignorance, & hatred that the GOP wanted to keep quiet. Old GOP want Trump to leave, quietly, but that's not his style. I just hope Trump has the guts to start a 3rd Party.

Posted by: elkern | Nov 11 2020 18:40 utc | 18

@Jay | Nov 11 2020 18:33 utc | 12
Keep on repeating, maybe you will believe it

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 11 2020 18:41 utc | 19

Norwegian@4, g kaiser@2 - The problem with letting the process take it's course is a presupposition that the process is fair and somehow neutral with respect to the two parties. The system and its processes have been corrupted in a specific manner to insure the process can be manipulated to lead down a a chosen course.

You're basically saying, "Trust the system" when that is part of what is broken and easily exploited. Why would anyone expect it to work this time as opposed to any other?

The founders of the U.S., above all else, intended to frame the constitution and form a state that was as resistant to corruption and exploitation by power- and control-seeking psychopaths. They didn't intent the constitution to be a sacred relic of worship, and they didn't intend the state to morph into an authoritarian religion where skeptics are terroristic heretics. They acknowledged the impossibility of assurring that by the constitution and state it described. They depended on future generations of U.S. citizens to change the constitution as conditions required to keep out the psychopaths. We, in the U.S., have dropped the ball on hardening the state from corruption by psychopaths. Worse yet, we can't even recognize psychopaths and actually enable and embrace their rule. The founders of the U.S. couldn't possibly have foreseen the knuckle-dragger citizenry we have today depending on an automatic, self-driving government.

Posted by: PavewayIV | Nov 11 2020 18:44 utc | 20

@dh-mtl | Nov 11 2020 18:38 utc | 15

I agree. This is existential. If this fraud stands, elections are no more in the west. Not that they have been meaningful the last 20 years, but the illusion is gone, and Biden's "Dark Winter" follows. I am assuming that it is indeed the goal.

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 11 2020 18:45 utc | 21


unlikely scenarios. But just my opinion.
Also have to add my own disbelief at how long it is taking NY, NJ and CA, among others, to count all their votes - does 35-50% of NYC live in the swamps or boonies? :)

trump doesn't even any support among the strongest of US 'allies': UK, Germany, France. that's what you get for being a bothersome bore to your own best 'friends'. While it's also true that Russia, China and even Mexico have held back in congratulating Biden on his win.

https://www.fox5ny.com/news/boris-johnson-calls-trump-previous-president

"British Prime Minister Boris Johnson has called Donald Trump the “previous president” of the United States and said it was “refreshing” to talk to President-elect Joe Biden.

Johnson has had a warm relationship with Trump. He congratulated Biden on his election victory in a phone call on Tuesday....."

https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-donald-trump-virus-outbreak-general-elections-elections-4060823b211ce91959b26f46efb73636

"The 2020 election unfolded smoothly across the country and without any widespread irregularities, according to state officials and election experts, a stark contrast to the baseless claims of fraud being leveled by President Donald Trump following his defeat.

Election experts said the large increase in advance voting — 107 million people voting early in person and by mail — helped take pressure off Election Day operations. There were also no incidents of violence at the polls or voter intimidation..."

Posted by: michaelj72 | Nov 11 2020 18:50 utc | 22


dh-mlt 15

You have made three claims for which you cite nothing that could be termed as evidence. Whose "statistical analysis?" Whose "factual testimony?" How do you know either if valid? Trump asserts "facts" in the same way you do. They are rarely true. Just because Alex Jones or Shawn Hannity makes a claim, doesn't mean it is true.

Posted by: David | Nov 11 2020 18:51 utc | 23

@PavewayIV | Nov 11 2020 18:44 utc | 20

I hear you. My position was that good forces must try to uphold the law when psychopaths try to crush the last remains of civility. Maybe too naive. The alternative is very frightening. Things are spiralling downwards.

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 11 2020 18:51 utc | 24

elkern,

You got it backwards. Trump is a big-city DEMOCRATIC leaning plant sent to destroy a party he hates. Back in the day, he said he should run as a Republican because their voters are the dumbest bastards he has ever seen - they prove him right everyday.... and they keep giving him money.

Dude, you guys all got gaslit by him and his faux-populist rhetoric.

Trump is a grifter who doesn't give a wit about politics except to line his pockets and set up his kids, like the Bushies did with their brood.

Hope he does start a new party, then the Re-thuglicans can disappear, just like the Whig Party did in the 19th century.

Posted by: Kurt ZUMDIECK | Nov 11 2020 18:53 utc | 25

Well, for what is worth, when today the US hits a record of infections ( of all times of the pandemic...) in the middle of the indiference by the incumbent president, first tasks being done by the Biden´Harris Transition Team consist in organizing a Task Force to fight the pandemic along with measures to relieve families and business...Trump went to play golf...

https://twitter.com/descifraguerra/status/1326349158417108993

https://twitter.com/Transition46/status/1325842496325373965

https://twitter.com/Transition46/status/1325868881441935366

https://twitter.com/Transition46/status/1326245254975131648

https://twitter.com/Transition46/status/1325961762815045632

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Nov 11 2020 18:54 utc | 26

8
Tell me where in the Constitution is says the popular vote was ever meant to matter in a Presidential election ?
The whole point of the EC was that it didn't if it didn't agree with our owners wishes.

Posted by: winston2 | Nov 11 2020 18:56 utc | 27

I am certainly more inclined to trust a hand recount done in searching light and impartially supervised. In that sense I trust the system. Let's see what that brings. A significant change, and there is a problem. Maybe then systematic.

Posted by: g kaiser | Nov 11 2020 18:59 utc | 28

Thanks for outlining these scenarios, b! In the last thread, I wrote:

"One of the important outcomes of the election is the election and all of its parts--the whole shebang. From editorials calling--again--for the retirement of the Electoral College to the basic component of democracy which is the right to vote AND to have your vote counted ... What needs to be pointed out to both Reds and Blues is that the system and its overlords are rotten to the core and that system must be rebuilt if any attempt at MAGA is going to succeed. And only by combining forces will We The People get what we need."

Trump challenging the announced outcome would do wonders to advance such a realization, so I hope he plays all his cards as more chaos will awaken more people and force them to open their eyes and minds. Meanwhile, Trump's making numerous moves while numerous rats are abandoning his sinking ship, particularly in AG Barr's Department. Firing Esper does what? This article and its many links explores just that:

"Appearing on CNN Tuesday night, William Cohen, former Secretary of Defense and Republican senator, told network host Don Lemon the president's conduct is 'more akin to a dictatorship than a democracy.'"

Yes, the article is very partisan; an example:

"'The new acting undersecretary for policy,' Ackerman noted, 'is Anthony Tata, who called Barack Obama a 'terrorist leader' in 2018 and claimed Obama is secretly Muslim.'"

Well, yes, Obama and Trump and those that came before them were all "Terrorist Leaders" since the #1 Terrorist entity on the planet is the Outlaw US Empire, while declaring Obama to be Muslim was a way to further the incorrect notion that Christians don't commit terrorism. Yet, one must ask what's Trump and perhaps also Pompeo's plan here, particularly with Pompeo saying he's preparing for the transition to Trump's second term.

As for dictatorship, the Duopoly already acts as one as it cedes policy making to an unelected bunch of Neoliberal Parasites controlling the nation's purse, national electoral process, and its financial regulatory agencies--all of which Trump has helped advance with no real resistance from Ds. China and Russia are very wise to await the official declaration of the winner.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 11 2020 18:59 utc | 29

The idea that Democrats would need to rig the vote in California with phony mail ins is absurd.

Posted by: Guest77 | Nov 11 2020 19:00 utc | 30

EoinW, 16:

That you are unaware of polling saying Texas was too close to call is not my failure.


Norwegian, 19:

So you still can't provide any evidence to support your claims. Furthermore it ain't just me pointing out that in the general election of 2020 neither CA or TX was a swing state and that Russiagate is BS.

Posted by: Jay | Nov 11 2020 19:01 utc | 31

Personally, I'm seeing a lot of evidence beginning to emerge, but that's not the real point.

The point is that Trump breaks things. Everything he's touched, he's blown the pretty face off it and revealed its ugly truth. The whole world has seen this, many countries have felt it directly, and the world view of the US has most definitely changed because of this.

Now, it seems likely that Trump will do the same thing with the domestic US election process. In showing how the game is rigged, he'll discredit the US illusion of "democracy" for all time.

Personally, I count this as a public good. The United States cannot rise again until after it has fallen. Both the rising and the falling are already happening, I think, but that's for another discussion. For now, hopefully comes the falling of scales from the eyes of more of the US populace.

Posted by: Grieved | Nov 11 2020 19:01 utc | 32

It amazes me how otherwise critical thinkers will absolutely buy into this MSM bullshit of "no evidence of widespread fraud" trumpeted in unison.
I have seen dozens of videos where actual fraud and criminal conduct was captured unmistably.
The election fraud was done so blatantly and in-your-face that it is damn easy to track and prove. Just look at this:
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/11/breaking-exclusive-analysis-election-night-data-states-shows-millions-votes-either-switched-president-trump-biden-lost/
While some of this fraud may have been prepared well in advance, some of it can only be explained by sheer panic on election night when the Dems noticed how strong Trump's lead was.

What strikes me though is the fixation of commentators even in this forum that just to get rid of Trump is worth literally any and all collateral. Even if it means shattering credibility of the voting process itself - just don't investigate, don't prosecute, Orange Man still BAD and to hell with the fact that half of the country - or more - will consider Biden illegitimate. As if you haven't seen over four years just how toxic that situation is. This is not about Trump, folks, this is about the foundation of democracy. This is about whether our votes still have any meaning.

Posted by: Matthias | Nov 11 2020 19:01 utc | 33

@Posted by: gottlieb | Nov 11 2020 18:40 utc | 17

Accurate diagnosis...

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Nov 11 2020 19:02 utc | 34

Nice explanation of the results of some diligent research, b.
ABC.net.au/PlanetAmerica pointed out a puzzling anomaly in the election stats in this evening's episode, which Xymphora has also hilighted...
The contest for House and Senate seats favoured the Republicans over Dems whereas the Presidential contest did not. So that's mildly peculiar.

I would like to quibble with one of your observations...

"There is only one person that could stop Trump from being successful with a 'dirty' Electoral College strategy. That is of course he himself. Over the last four years he has failed to select competent advisors."

In Trump's previous life as a property developer, he was a gifted talent-spotter, one example being the woman he chose to project-manage the construction of Trump Tower and the woman he appointed to oversee the sale/lease of the completed project. I never watched The Apprentice so can't comment on the quality of the "winners" who emerged from that TV spectacle, but I'd be surprise if they were mostly duds.

So I was always confident that President Trump's 'failures' in selecting advisors were intentional, and certainly helped to breathe life into the Conspiracy Theory that the Swamp is a collection of utter assholes which runs America from the shadows.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 11 2020 19:04 utc | 35

@Matthias | Nov 11 2020 19:01 utc | 33

This is not about Trump, folks, this is about the foundation of democracy. This is about whether our votes still have any meaning.

Thank you for speaking the truth. This is also not just about the USA. Tyranny is descending where I live now.

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 11 2020 19:06 utc | 36

Also, this thread shows all the signs of becoming as dogmatic and polarized as the last election thread - arguing over positions that irreconcilably oppose each other, and snippets of data.

A waste of time, because the caravan will move regardless, and at its own pace. I hope commenters will dwell on the wider implications of all this rather than fighting over split hairs, but I don't have much hope for this.

Just remember, no one here is leading the caravan, and it will move on no matter how much barking from here howls into the empty night.

It would be better to learn how to watch and listen, and then pass the occasional quiet observation.

my two cents

Posted by: Grieved | Nov 11 2020 19:09 utc | 37

dh-mtl, 15:

Telling that you didn't support any one of your 3 assertions with evidence.

Posted by: Jay | Nov 11 2020 19:09 utc | 38

If there was a Trump landslide and the oligarchs succeed in nullifying it, then votes no longer have any meaning.

Posted by: lysias | Nov 11 2020 19:10 utc | 39

Even if the formal part of his description is right, in terms of content our Tronald-fanboy host has it wrong. Tronald indeed did start wars, on the economic level. They are called sanctions when in reality strangulating entire national economies.

He encouraged fascist minded people all over the planet, does not care in the slightest for ecological hazards, nor health issues.

It is still possible he assert himself, but likely not without help of fascist militias. And this would spell the meanest form of war, the civil one.

Posted by: pnyx | Nov 11 2020 19:10 utc | 40

Have to give President Trump credit. With everyone lined up against him - Dems, media, Deep State & half the Republican party - they still needed massive voter fraud to "win" the election. So massive that it can't be covered up. Question is: will the justice system want to find the fraud? Bill Barr is as Deep State as they come. With him leading the DOJ investigation it seems likely he's be sure not to find anything. It seems the entire system is so corrupt that President Trump doesn't have a chance.

What I'm curious about is why they would all support a corrupt, senile politician leading a party with a history of rigging elections. Obviously they REALLY don't like Trump. Ironic as all these lifetime DC types have as big an ego and are as selfish and amoral as the guy they hate. A bigger factor would be the perception that Biden's win was inevitable. Thus they all jumped on board as they need to be on the winning side to have any future in Washington. I'm sure they were all patting themselves on the back last weekend for a job well done. That, however, was the high point for the Fraudsters. From now on they are playing defence, trying to protect what they think they've won.

Will it work? Like working the four corner offence, can they run out the clock and claim victory? I doubt there is a Dean Smith amongst them with the intelligence to pull this off. Instead we have a bunch of brown nosers who have gotten everything by kissing ass. They supported the fraud to be on the winning side. What will they do if perceptions change and it appears they aren't on the winning side? Like rats leaving a sinking ship?

This was a once in a lifetime thing, building this Coalition of Fraud and getting so many selfish people to all support the same cause. Coalitions do not last forever. Selfish people will opt for their selfish interest when the pressure is on. President Trump has many options to turn that pressure on. Just seeing Rudy Giuliani in prime 9/11 form would have me hiding under my bed. The most important advantage is that the election was stolen and the evidence is there. Simply a question of who chooses to reveal it.

I can understand the behavior of the DC denizens. Why would average Americans, mostly liberals, support such shenanigans? They've nothing to gain from it. How do they benefit from helping the dirtiest political party in US history back into power? What's to be gained by undermining their own democracy? Trump said something to hurt your feelings? Go ahead and cut off your nose to spite your face.

Good advice from B, Popcorn stock is on the rise! I'm looking forward to the hysterics from the MSM as their fraud unravels and they become more panicked.

Posted by: EoinW | Nov 11 2020 19:11 utc | 41

PavewayIV @20--

Nice to read your commentary since it supports my thesis. I greatly miss your valuable interjections!

winston2 @27--

A state's popular vote determines which candidate is supposed to win its electoral votes. Please read "The Invention of the Electoral College"!!!

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 11 2020 19:12 utc | 42

@Posted by: Ernesto Che | Nov 11 2020 18:08 utc | 6

Not to mention, Che, the war he ignited in the Middle East by unilateraly, along Netnayahu, declaring Israel capital in Jerusalem, plus the economic war on Lebanon and one of its main politcla parties, Hezbollah. The wars on Hong Kong, Venezuela and Belarus which not becuase of unsuccessfull are not wars...

Then, there are the multiple proxy and civil wars started, and developing, in the African continent, like in Mozambique ( where 50 people were beheaded by IS in an stadium just yesterday..) and also just yesterday already declared civil war in Ethiopia, between central government and Tigray Region rebels...just coincidentally with the inauguration of a Russian base in South Sudan...

Well, Trump as peacenik debunked at least for anyone not only reading MoA, The Saker, and Voltairenet.

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Nov 11 2020 19:15 utc | 43

Even if the formal part of his description is right, in terms of content our Tronald-fanboy host has it wrong. Tronald indeed did start wars, on the economic level. They are called sanctions when in reality strangulating entire national economies.

He encouraged fascist minded people all over the planet, does not care in the slightest for ecological hazards, nor health issues.

It is still possible he assert himself, but likely not without help of fascist militias. And this would spell the meanest form of war, the civil one.

Posted by: pnyx | Nov 11 2020 19:24 utc | 44

Article II, Section 1, Clause 2 of the U.S. Constitution, on the selection of electors, makes no mention of the popular vote. It does, however, give state legislatures the power to determine how electors are to be chosen.

Posted by: lysias | Nov 11 2020 19:26 utc | 45

@Posted by: David | Nov 11 2020 18:51 utc | 23

With a reward of 1million$ offered by Governor of Texas, one would guess there will be soon thousands of whistleblowers from the USPS or poll stations officials offering their "testimonies"...

The people I could see in the poll stations, at the electoral tables, seemed quite poor, btw, I bet the USPS are poorly payed too, and I would asure some hundreds unemployed would not mind lying if they can have their lives solved...

You first create this kind of widepsread necessity state for the most, and then you try that the masses make the dirty job for you, even when trying to grab power unfairly,this is typical conservative procedure, they would not mind making US people fight each other in the streets under these claims...

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Nov 11 2020 19:29 utc | 46

Matthias, 33:


Do you really not understand that the Gateway Pundit link you posted provides ZERO evidence to back up the assertion in its headline?

The Gateway Pundit piece summarizes a dubious claim, which itself can't be checked. Furthermore, it utterly ignores mail in balloting instead concentrating on "election night" as if that has any legal meaning in any state.

Posted by: Jay | Nov 11 2020 19:32 utc | 47

lysias, 45:

That is true, however should state legislatures or the Supreme Court invalidate state wins by Biden to give Trump a "win" that would be them saying "votes don't matter".

Posted by: Jay | Nov 11 2020 19:37 utc | 48

lysias, 45:

That is true, however should state legislatures or the Supreme Court invalidate state wins by Biden to give Trump a "win" that would be them saying "votes don't matter".

Posted by: Jay | Nov 11 2020 19:37 utc | 49

Grieved @32 & #38--

Must strongly agree with both comments, particularly @32. For the System to be replaced, it must be demolished first, which IMO was also PavewayIV's point--A Little Revolution every generation is good for the Republic as the blood spilt irrigates it--Jefferson. But we haven't ever had that as it was intended by Jefferson. (Explaining why the Civil War isn't an example requires a very long essay.)

When I first began commenting here years ago, my initial arguments were aimed at showing why the 1787 Constitution is a failure, as is the governmental structure erected in its wake, while making suggestions as to its rectification. Little has actually changed aside from more exposure as to the system's failure. Walter's point on the last thread as to why he voted Trump because he'd continue to unhinge the system was very well made and something I'd also considered. So far post-election, numerous Swamp Rats have abandoned their posts showing that Trump's wrecking ball's still swinging.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 11 2020 19:43 utc | 50

pnyx @44--

The Outlaw US Empire since its beginning in 1945 has always aligned itself with Fascists and helped bring them to power. As myself and others have observed, Trump represents a continuity of policy in almost all cases rather than doing anything original.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 11 2020 19:48 utc | 51

If enough of the public believes that the Dems are trying to steal the election and nullify a Trump landslide they won't believe that turning over the choice of electors to (elected) state legislatures amounts to saying that votes don't matter.

Posted by: lysias | Nov 11 2020 19:52 utc | 52

@Grieved and karlof1

IMO, it is very easy to claim for the destruction of the Us system from the comfortability of your accomodated lives and old ages.
After all, it will be the younbg who will die inb the hundreds of thousands in the streets...

One question, if you are so well informed people, whay did yo unot started a revolution when you were young or, at least, mid aged? because you saw you would be losing a lot, if not your lives?

It is my impression that there is a whole network of "influecners" in the net trying to tear the system apart to built something different from ashes...This is done by people who, obviously do not see themselves being part of the final ashes from which to built, as sure of having a good refuge while the turmoil endures.
Not so sure what is intended to built is of the convenience of the working masses.
It is true that the working masses never have achieved any gain in rights and welfare in not through violence, but I very doubt the working masses must follow the wrong impulse started by a con artist billionaire of questionable ways..

These sudden clams for the "destruction of the system" have to do with the "Great Reset" and not with any benefit for the masses, I fear..

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Nov 11 2020 19:57 utc | 53

"Where's the beef?" What fraud other than the would be tyrant in the WH. Frivolous lawsuits something like 0/12. Trump wants to fill his coffers. Let him soak his victims yet again. The country and the world are moving on.

Posted by: Maureen O | Nov 11 2020 20:01 utc | 54

The Outlaw US Empire since its beginning in 1945 has always aligned itself with Fascists and helped bring them to power.

@Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 11 2020 19:48 utc | 51

To more INRI, and linking with my previous comment.
If si, why did you, and colleagues here ( as I have seen you all have met each other long ago from comments made here...) not start a revolution say in 1990, for example, when the USSR fell?

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Nov 11 2020 20:02 utc | 55

David | Nov 11 2020 18:51 utc | 23; Posted by: Jay | Nov 11 2020 19:09 utc | 38

You want references to evidence:

Statistical evidence: www.zerohedge.com/political/it-defies-logic-scientist-finds-telltale-signs-election-fraud-after-analyzing-mail-ballot

This an excellent analysis. The conclusion:
'It appears Dems shot themselves in the foot bc making everyone do mail-in ballots actually makes it easier to catch mail-in ballot fraud.' 'This pattern proves fraud and is a verifiable timestamp of when each fraudulent action occurred.'

Factual evidence: 'Trump Files Emergency Injunction In Michigan Alleging Fraud; Demands Recounts Over 'Malfunctioning' Dominion Machines'

More than "more than one hundred credentialed election challengers" who have provided "sworn affidavits". I don't think that these people would provide sworn affidavits to the court without being truthful. This is from just one legal action.

Then of course there is the circumstantial evidence. The Dems have been telegraphing the whole scenario for months in order to prepare the sheeple for just such an outcome.

Posted by: dh-mtl | Nov 11 2020 20:10 utc | 56

A good example that all our media lie and say Biden was elected and Trump must concede. The electors will not be chosen until December and will not vote until January. The media can report that Biden won the vote and looks certain to win, but he has not yet. The state legislators must certify election results or no delegates are sent, so Biden could lose some awarded by CNN. Or they tweak their state law and choose whoever despite the popular vote. This is unlikely, but it is the truth that no one in our media reports.

Posted by: Carlton Meyer | Nov 11 2020 20:12 utc | 57

“the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote.” Currently, Republicans have a state delegation majority with 26 of the 50 states and they appear almost certain to keep that majority in the new Congress.

Pelosi has the right to refuse to seat any member of the house. It would only take a handful of GOP reps that she refuses to tip the state delegations, and you can bet if Trump goes that far she will go this far.

Posted by: UserFriendly | Nov 11 2020 20:15 utc | 58

I am getting tired of reading Bull Shit on Moon of Alabama !! No Trumper doubts about the Senators and house members Elected trough the same Ballots the Dimwits denounce as Fake !! Any "theories" regarding this fact ??

Posted by: opereta | Nov 11 2020 20:18 utc | 59

The Democrats tried a faithless elector strategy after Trump won and before he took office. They went after Trump electors in 2016 like they plan to go after Trump supporters post Trump.

We will know in December how this plays out. Most likely Trump loses but there are some valid complaints yet to be settled.

This whole thing has a chance of spiraling out of control across many levels. Anyone who believes the MSM narrative at this point needs cat scan of their brain.

Posted by: circumspect | Nov 11 2020 20:26 utc | 60

Ironically the same group that spent the last 4 yrs disputing the 2016 election and alleging foreign interference, mass voter fraud and generally a corrupt flawed electoral process when the result didn’t suit them now claim that the process is all above board and shouldn't be challenged as the result suits them.

Posted by: Glen Batterham | Nov 11 2020 20:29 utc | 61

Richard Wolf has a good post election commentary - ten minutes. Wolf promises a comprehensive analysis in a week.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 11 2020 20:31 utc | 62

Dh-Mlt

The Republicans have an army of lawyers. They have been busy filing suits over alleged fraud. They haven't won any. All the claims have evaporated when faced with legal scrutiny.

Trump has a long history of claiming fraud when faced with results he doesn't like. Do you also believe that, as Trump claimed, that Romney defeated Obama? If you do, what evidence do you base that on? How about Trump's claims that fraud deprived him of a win in the Iowa caucus and the 2016 popular vote? Do you believe that as well? If so, what evidence do you base your belief upon? Trump announced months ago that any result other than a win would be the result of fraud. He installed a Postmaster General who tried to shut down sorting machines but that was overturned by a court. Trump is desperate but he is not going to prevail. Thus far, every legal challenge Trump has made has been shot down by the courts with mainly Republican judges. Expect that to continue.

Posted by: David | Nov 11 2020 20:32 utc | 63

@Glen Batterham | Nov 11 2020 20:29 utc | 61

Indeed.
2016+4: Russia rigged the election !!!
2020 : Elections can't be rigged !!!

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 11 2020 20:35 utc | 64

lysias, 52:

Very few people believe what you imply is a reasonable belief.

Also beliefs aren't facts.

Posted by: Jay | Nov 11 2020 20:39 utc | 65

Regarding Trump being able to reverse the preliminary election results: I doubt it.

Unlike 2016, when there was a degree of panic within the Republican party still fresh off the internal struggle of the Tea Party, Republicans are set up do do well enough for the next 2-4 years without Trump (or at least that seems to be the view that's expressed in public).

On the other hand, I'd expect Republicans are willing to go pretty far to contest the GA election results, for the possibility of taking back one of the two Senate seats, and thus formal control of the Senate (ability to set agenda). Republicans will have a de-facto voting majority either way because of the DINO Joe Manchin.

Posted by: ptb | Nov 11 2020 20:41 utc | 66

Norwegian, 64:

For 2016, there's solid evidence that Trump's win was rigged not by Russia, but by state parties and the Koch Brothers in PA, FL, MI, and WI--probably other states too.


2020, it's not that rigging [for Biden] couldn't have occurred, it's that no one has provided anything like evidence that such rigging occurred.

Posted by: Jay | Nov 11 2020 20:46 utc | 67

Norwegian, 64:

For 2016, there's solid evidence that Trump's win was rigged not by Russia, but by state parties and the Koch Brothers in PA, FL, MI, and WI--probably other states too.


2020, it's not that rigging [for Biden] couldn't have occurred, it's that no one has provided anything like evidence that such rigging occurred.

Posted by: Jay | Nov 11 2020 20:46 utc | 68

It is better when Americans destroy each other and leave the rest of the world out of their insatiable hatred.

Posted by: BraveNewWorld | Nov 11 2020 20:56 utc | 69

Greg Palast takes a look at purged voters.

I wouldn't put it past the screaming loony pentecostals and repugnants to even cite this short movie as evidence of voter fraud. They are that dishonest, that hypocritical, that low. And they would do it with a smile - like the smile on Pelosi's face.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 11 2020 20:57 utc | 70

For four long years now, Trump has been dreaming of parading down Pennsylvania Avenue on January 20th, standing up in the back of an open touring car, with his right arm held out in a stiff salute above the heads of rank upon rank of his gun-toting, brownshirted goons clearing the way ahead of him.

But that’s not gonna happen; unfortunately for him, Secret Service agents will drag him unceremoniously from the White House to the street, and a bunch of New York prosecutors, armed with multiple criminal indictments, will take over from there.

Posted by: AntiSpin | Nov 11 2020 21:00 utc | 71

David @23, Mathias @33 + g-kaiser and Norwegian

Seems to me that while the evidence cited for fraud is circumstantial, it cannot be ignored, given the consequences. The reasons I find myself leaning towards the massive, pre-planned fraud scenario are also circumstantial, but taken together they have enough merit to warrant a very serious recount in just about ALL the battleground states. My considerations include:

1. Intent - the Democrats had intent - of that we can be sure just reading the lead-up to the vote. The endless harping and urging to vote by mail, even in places, like my tiny county, where it was hardly necessary, makes one wonder what was so important about getting a large chunk of these votes in.

2. Further to intent as well as past record: The democrat party has committed outright, almost unabashed fraud in its own primaries twice: in 2016 and 2020, both times to deprive sanders of a likely victory. In 2016 there was proof galore analysed by several election integrity groups, while in 2020, there were at least two different types of analysis (one from TDMSresearch.com, one from yours truly (link upon request), which taken together demonstrate conclusively that there was an outright plan to flip cotes before super Tuesday, which was then executed in a fairly sophisticated way.

They say the past is prologue to the future: a party capable of outright fraud in one place 9where they are less likely to be held accountable by their own brain-washed rubes) is a party that's likely to do it again, if it judges it to be expedient on the way to power. In the end it's more about the cover-up than the actual crime. In 2020 they get high marks for the cover-up, as they learnt from 2016. However the pattern of likely cheating this time in the general is more reminiscent of the techniques used in 2016 (votes coming in the dead of night in just those crowded precincts where the dems can count on their die-hard officials. Not many need to even know. Just enough).

3. There are some peculiarities in this vote. For example, the absence of any sort of "Blue wave" INCLUDING in some democrat-leaning districts, despite enormous amounts of money spent by the Dems to unseat incumbents. They are at least net +6 now in the house and only -1 in the senate, 100's and 100's of Millions of dollars later.

There are indications of ballots (10's of 1000's in various states) which had only a mark for biden and nothing else. That would be peculiar any day of the week and needs investigating, for sure.

Making this point, I take into account the dismal 0.2% vote for the Greens. It is possible of course, that many a progressive's (those furious Bernie supporters) hand "slipped" and just happened to mark the Trump rather than Howard's name. It is even possible that in their rage against the DNC, not a few progressives just went ahead and voted Republican ticket - yet supporting progressive initiatives (many of which have passed - strangely in Republican strongholds, like Florida).

4. Most significant are the vote count machines which are far far from secure - yet over 30 states still use the discredited Dominion machines (which many European states forbid). The evidence from the Dem primaries suggest the Dems had full access to the back of those machines, which is how they flipped vote. Likely not by hack but by permission (check who is on the board of ES&S the parent company). It is not clear whether Dems could get away with that during the general, as they would be under watch, and are not the only party with access to back doors etc, but even if they had the dominant access in some states, that'd be more than enough to tip the election.

In this case, there's no need to even suppose widespread mail-in ballot cheating. Just a plan and access. Now, why on earth would people here assume those machines are secure when you look at the history of Diebold, Dominion, ES&S litigation and, of course, the money trail of just who sits on what board. Many a state tried for transparency by requesting the source codes. There is even a recent court case for it. But time and again they were met by heavy duty litigation.

If nothing else, this alone should cast serious doubt upon the integrity of elections in the US. Therefore 2020 may be a water-shed event, not just because the machines are unreliable and secretively controlled, but because the records, such as they are may not even allow a proper investigation, something that's likely to become clearer as we go forth.

US is about power and only about power when it comes to the ruling oligarchy. In the end, what may happen is what happened in Soviet Russia, where one called Stalin, originally an obscure cabinet minister, little by little consolidated power by having a plan and being far more ruthless in executing in than his adversaries (Trotsky et al). This, to me is the danger. talk of America holding together as a country are just that - talk. Their democracy has been robust enough to withstand much, but everything has a limit, and we now have one party that could care less about "whatever it takes", while their followers are caught deep in the throes of TDS.

Posted by: Merlin 2 | Nov 11 2020 21:01 utc | 72

Just thinking aloud here, but is it ironic or puzzling or conundrummy that we all assume Trump's massive over performance in the Blue Wall States is because all the polls were more wrong in 2020 than in 2016, instead of asking if there isn't massive Republican voter fraud going on in those States?

Posted by: gottlieb | Nov 11 2020 21:06 utc | 73

dh-mtl #15

3. If the fraud is allowed to stand, it sets a precedent. All future elections will now be determined by fraud.

It's now up to the supreme court to either oversee the preservation or the destruction of democracy in the U.S.

The fraud has been standing for many years if not decades. It is precedent, it is documented see Greg Palast, see Bernie Sanders in California 2020, see Whitney Webb Suspect AI Software Verified Mail-In Ballots With Little Human Oversight in Key Battleground States/

Nah the Supreme Court is incapable of that task. If the issues are critical and so earth shattering they can simply pass the entire steaming pot of turds back to the legislature and suggest rerun of election or draw straws in a combined sitting of the Senate and Congress. THAT is the measure of the rot in the USA.

To expect anything more is delusion.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 11 2020 21:10 utc | 74

Lots of typos. Sorry. To #3 - I meant repubs are up net +6 in the House (one race still not called but likely to tip that way).

Also, I have the links both to the two first rate Election integrity studies from 2016 (these are really the gold standard now for how elections can be stolen and rigged when the will is there and the means are secured, while the cover-up is sustained by enormous lust for power). I also have somewhere an excellent link to the sordid history of ES&S (though it can be found through Google with some effort). Yes, I am lazy but can be rattled from it......if needed.

Finally, one more comment: over 71 million voted for Trump, many, if a not a majority, not out of undying love for the man, but out of conviction that he was the "lesser evil". They were presented with a partly demented, likely illegitimate candidate in Biden and a severely unattractive VP whp failed to make a dent in the primary and withdrew early. These people, these 71+ M (some of whom may even be progressives, as I hinted above) will NOT accept the greater evil which will include even more heavy-handed censorship than we have seen so far. They - and I (however I voted) fear an Orwellian future for this country, complete with suppression of free speech (yes, it can be suppressed even more than it is already).

The majority of these voters will NOT accept a verdict that they believe is illegitimate, whether trump's lawyers can come up with a clever ploy or not. They WILL regard a dem administration as illegitimate and they WILL resist, if passively at first.

A country requires at least some good will among a majority of its citizens to hold together. IF much of that good will is withdrawn, the center will not hold and we'll be seeing some truly hostile actions and reactions that will prove "we are NOT in this together".

Perhaps some of you look forward to the decline of the Empire through domestic strife (I kind of do). Yet, we should always remember that no Empire went down quietly without first inflicting countless damage on its own as well as those out there. It is simply not a pretty sight, and that is something to dread.

Posted by: Merlin 2 | Nov 11 2020 21:18 utc | 75

Top analysis prize:- perfectly stated. Putin is off the hook and Xi can breath a sigh of relief.
This USAi performance is downhill all the way. We all need a drink or a joint - f*k the popcorn.

@Glen Batterham #61

Indeed.
2016+4: Russia rigged the election !!!
2020 : Elections can't be rigged !!!

Posted by: Norwegian #64

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 11 2020 21:18 utc | 76

@ 53 "One question, if you are so well informed people, whay did yo unot started a revolution when you were young or, at least, mid aged? because you saw you would be losing a lot, if not your lives?"

Fair question. I think we tried, Then the fascist cabal murdered every leader and spread dope everywhere.

Posted by: Walter | Nov 11 2020 21:20 utc | 77

If the Supreme Court decides no Electoral College vote is reliable, they don't have to order a new election. They can just follow the Constitution and turn the choice of the new president to the House of Representatives and of the new vice president to the Senate.

Posted by: lysias | Nov 11 2020 21:21 utc | 78

There is claimed proof. (Examples below and part of McENanay's statement). OK, these will now be followed through. So we will see if they are enough to cause any changes in the final outcome.

In more news, Twitter censored 12 of trumps Tweets today.

The amount of newcomers trying, rather desperately, to decry anything about the voting fraud that may have happened is a sign that a bit of "hot-under-the-collar-desperation is setting in.

The "Intelligence" community is openly calling for a "coup" by VP Pence. They are in the process of really panicking as many of the originators of Russiagate, Pizzagate would face real prison terms if Trump wins. (Brennans statements to the Press) (I would love to add "billsgate" but that would be off topic)

Quote;
“We keep hearing the drumbeat of ‘where is the evidence?’ Right here, Sean, 234 pages of sworn affidavits, these are real people, real allegations, signed with notaries,” McEnany said.

“They’re alleging - this is one county, Wayne County, Michigan - they are saying that there was a batch of ballots where 60 percent had the same signature,” she told host Sean Hannity.

“They’re saying that 35 ballots had no voter record but they were counted anyway, that 50 ballots were run multiple times through a tabulation machine.”

There were a lot more.

Posted by: Stonebird | Nov 11 2020 21:22 utc | 79

AntiSpin #71

For four long years now, Trump has been dreaming of parading down Pennsylvania Avenue on January 20th, standing up in the back of an open touring car, with his right arm held out in a stiff salute above the heads of rank upon rank of his gun-toting, brownshirted goons clearing the way ahead of him.

There is precedent and he has to better it.

I cant see Trump getting anything up other than his blood pressure.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 11 2020 21:28 utc | 80

Some will find watching the "Smug Industrial Complex" right on and even amusing as the point raised by the Keisers in their Report is quite valid. Yet, they also become guilty of their own smugness, although they don't appear to be aware of their transgression.

H.Schmatz @53--

If you've read what I've written here over the years, you'll know I've always advocated for change to be made via the political system, not via violent revolution. As I recall, I recently reiterated that very issue. 30 years ago, my life was very different from today with my 2nd marriage having blown up with loss of house and the plan that went with it all. I was a nightclub manager at the time and had to relocate and retreat to my former career as a Chef which landed me a position as a Food Service Director at $25K/yr--just enough to get by. My goal then was to return to college and get my degree, which I knew I'd need if I wanted to get ahead and have an opportunity for a Middle Class existence. By 1996, I was finally enrolled and taking classes. I graduated Summa Cum Laude in 2000 with 4 related degrees and returned to the college I attended in California to instruct. That year I worked for Ralph Nader's Campaign and learned much. I now had a basis for my ideas about political reform, but still had much to learn. The need to manage my life and interests again intervened. Did you read my reply to Walter @341 on the previous election thread and subsequent discourse between us and a bit with Anne? @341 you'll learn more about what I did for a living.

I've already written against the monstrosity called the "Great Reset;" indeed, I pillory its advocates daily and argue for the opposite. Starting a revolution of any sort requires a following; my life circumstances and location haven't allowed me to do anything in that regard, so I do what I can as I've confessed. The discourse Grieved and I began those years ago had to do with fixing our system's ills in a peaceful manner and was joined by numerous barflies. But to properly fix something, the basis of the problem must be determined; otherwise, the fix won't cure the problem. And that's certainly true of much of the world's political-economy, which is based on the Zero-sum system known as Neoliberalism as constructed by the USA and UK. Do read Michael Hudson's Killing the Host and his Super Imperialism which predates it to understand the nature of our problem. Now after a decade plus of research, I now know what happened to bring about our current calamity; and that was built atop another two decades of learning. Hudson's been at it longer than I've been alive, yet he only within the past two weeks called for a revolt as the only method to accomplish the changes required.

Yes, calling for Revolution is a desperate move only to be done when all other avenues are exhausted. I'm not there yet. Having discovered the root of our problem and seeing the chaos being generated by the system's ruination, I still think there's time to inform, educate and motivate; to get Reds and Blues on the same side to attack their genuine enemies--those that control the Duopoly. I've written about the duties of citizenship, what they are and why we don't see them in action in piecemeal fashion at MoA. I've mentioned the oaths some people must take to become a citizen, a soldier, a government employee, a member of government. Common to all is the requirement to uphold and defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic; but all we see are the many instances of complete dereliction of that duty except in very few cases. PavewayIV @20 said it very well--the general public long ago abdicated its fundamental duty, many of whom had no idea they even possessed such a responsibility because they were never taught/told. I'll suggest yet another book, William Greider's 1992 Who Will Tell The People, as an example that attempts well prior to Nader's and Sanders's to foment a Movement were made, but not nearly enough people listened. And that's why we are where we now find ourselves.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 11 2020 21:30 utc | 81

I may get to a longer comment later, but for right now I'll leave it at this: Can we not quote sources like Gateway Pundit or James O'Keefe/Project Veritas? Those two are known for one thing only - bullshit. You look like a fool when you use them as "proof" of anything except that a sucker is born every minute.

Posted by: teri | Nov 11 2020 21:30 utc | 82

For those that think Trump and Biden's foreign policy is the same..

NATO says Biden victory will help with 'assertive Russia,' as influential Moscow MP warns Democrat sees country as 'main enemy'
https://www.rt.com/russia/506094-nato-biden-election-tensions/

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 11 2020 21:31 utc | 83


dh-mlt 15

You have made three claims for which you cite nothing that could be termed as evidence. Whose "statistical analysis?" Whose "factual testimony?" How do you know either if valid? Trump asserts "facts" in the same way you do. They are rarely true. Just because Alex Jones or Shawn Hannity makes a claim, doesn't mean it is true.

Posted by: David | Nov 11 2020 18:51 utc | 23

Statistical analysis can be provided by OAS, they are really creative at it. The remedy can also be borrowed from Bolivia -- a temporary rule by a junta, followed by elections within a year. At least in Bolivia it ended OK. But indeed, I would appreciate a link to make a judgement (I had A in probability calculus and B in statistics, perhaps the former will suffice).

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Nov 11 2020 21:34 utc | 84

teri

Stop telling people what to read or not to read! What are you? A DNC voter?
Project Vertias have exposed corruption in DNC and social media companies, why are you against that kind of exposures?

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 11 2020 21:34 utc | 85

A lighter topic. Just when you thought that Chinese Commies cannot get any lower:

Hong Kong (CNN)China has broken its own record for deepest manned dive into the world's oceans, sinking an estimated 10,909 meters (35,790 feet) into the Mariana Trench, state-run news agency Xinhua said.

[But the world record belongs to USA. We are the lowest!]

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Nov 11 2020 21:36 utc | 86

Essay 54 pages> "Preparing for a Disputed Presidential Election:An Exercise in Election Risk Assessment and Management, Edward B. Foley"

tinyurl[dot]com/y3hlt5zr


Games out the several pathways, none of which produce consent. But they are interesting.

Posted by: Walter | Nov 11 2020 21:36 utc | 87

Apologies if these links already exist:-

https://everylegalvote.com/country

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ztu5Y5obWPk&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=Dr.ShivaAyyadurai

It is clear that all US elections are just chicanery and attorneys. Their criticism of Crimea, Belarus, Venezuela and others will now disappear down the plughole. They have no authority to lecture anyone on democracy.

Posted by: Kaiama | Nov 11 2020 21:41 utc | 88

This 'election' seems to have unleashed an army of Dem Party Zombies. Of course the whole 'election' was filled with fake votes. It's plain as day. Watching these insane Dem Party Zombies is disturbing to normal people. Both of the 'parties' obviously suck big time. I would tell the Zombies to get real, but it's pointless.

I fought against voting 'machines' for years. I can see what is going on. Millions of people are actually zombies.

Posted by: blues | Nov 11 2020 21:44 utc | 89

"No Trumper doubts about the Senators and house members Elected trough the same Ballots the Dimwits denounce as Fake" --TDS victim

This is one of the things I am interested in hearing more details on. Rudy Giuliani was saying that there are witnesses stating that at least in Pennsylvania and Michigan the big batches of extra ballots that came in the following morning from the election and while the counts were frozen were only marked for Biden, with no other down-ticket candidates being marked on those ballots. This would explain how Biden got more votes than Trump while the down-ticket Republicans still won the rest of the races. More importantly, if this is accurate, then it is a massive and obvious screw-up by the people cooking the election results. This is going to stand out with mammoth improbabilities in any statistical analysis, and while the PMCs in the corporate mass media are not very bright (they are business and journalism majors, after all, whose math skills plateaued at basic arithmetic), even they can see how awkward this is going to look if those ballots have to face close public scrutiny. That is why they are doing the full court press to get Trump to concede. With a concession the establishment will be able to memory hole the details of the election and gaslight into silence anyone who doubts the establishment narrative about it.

Fun stuff!

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 11 2020 21:49 utc | 90

"...And again, Democrats would appeal that outcome to the Supreme Court."

How would they appeal, on what basis? If there is no conclusive verdict from the electoral college, then the congress decides, voting by state delegations.

And that's all there is to it; end of story. There's nothing to complain about, to any courts.

All the Trump campaign needs to do, is to block the electors from a few states. Seems doable.

Posted by: Mao Cheng Ji | Nov 11 2020 21:50 utc | 91

Here's One Report on Dominion Vote Flipping.
https://www.minds.com/media/1172915702746034176

Also, Mayor Giuliani has claimed mamy Cases of Fraud and is Filing Lawsuits as Trump's Lawyer.

Also, Tucker Carlson has also claimed that his Team have verified a good number of Reported Incidents.

Statistical Analyses Claimants are coming forward as well.

Those who claim that there were none or not enough - including you, B - need to read around a bit more and wait before making presumptive assessments when we don't have All the Claim Cases, related Data, and Votes Affected.

Personally, I've seen enough to believe this Election is Compromised. Dominion are allegedly vested by the Pelosis (which alone raise a few Red Flags for a RICO Investigation).

It may be Prudent to Not only Hold Audits; but Redo the Federal Election Seats (WH and Congress) again with Federal Ballots Monitored by Federal Personnel.

Biden should have been sent to Bethesda/Walter Reed/Hopkins for an Alzheimer's/Dementia Review Panel (put my Own Mother through the Drill every several years prior to her going to her Nursing Home); and Hunter should have been Arrested for Crack/Child Molestation while being further investigated for MoneyLaundering/RICO with Pops.

Giuliani is Confident Here As Well. One thing for Certain, B, is that Giuliani has an Outstanding Reputation as a Federal Prosecutor; and Does. Not. Bπ££$#!+. Around. When it comes to Criminal Cases.

I'll rely on Giuliani's Assessments more than anyone else's on this Matter.

V/r,

Posted by: IronForge | Nov 11 2020 21:54 utc | 92

Re -- karlof1 | Nov 11 2020 21:30 utc | 80

I'll second karlof1's recommendation of Greider's book Who Will Tell the People.

If from time to time someone asks me where they can go to get factual information about how politics really work in the US, I always tell them that they can get a quick, three-book "degree" on the subject if they start by reading Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States, then muckraker Lincoln Steffen's The Shame of the Cities, and finally the Greider book mentioned above.

Try it -- you'll be glad you did.

Posted by: AntiSpin | Nov 11 2020 21:56 utc | 93

After thinking about their report on the Smug Industrial Complex, there's much I find good about Stacy's accusations about the BigLie Media that populate that Complex--the Establishment's Narrative Caitlin Johnstone admonishes us to ignore and do all we can to dispute. The "Biden Won" narrative is part of their task to manipulate and indoctrinate--to declare all is decided when nothing is actually.

I have one central question: Since both parties work at the Duopoly's behest and it ought not to care which POTUS they end up controlling, why all the fuss? Are those of us correct who characterize Trump as a loose cannon populist incapable of much controlling? Plenty of $$Trillions$$ have gone to the 1%, so that can't be the issue. Is it Imperial Policy, but Trump continues to follow the #1 policy goal of Full Spectrum Domination? COVID policy, but don't the 1% want population reduction particularly of the senior set? Immigration? Trump merely followed Obama's policy. Genuinely trying to eradicate the Empire's terrorists, i.e. ISIS?

Now I'm posing this as a serious question. What does the Duopoly gain from Biden that it can't get from Trump?

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 11 2020 21:59 utc | 94

@Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 11 2020 21:30 utc | 80

Ok, man, honestly, I had not had the time lately neither to read all what you write here nor by anybody else, lately I am or exhausted or like now sick pending a second PCR to start the battle again.

Then you have not made the revolution, like many other of us, out of personal circunstances, maiinly that we are poor, and must espend most, if not all, of our time working hard to make a living. Most of us lack also the needed formation to lead.

With respect what you say about the Constitution, I do not get to understand you well here guys.
But, it is not the US Constitution what keeps the people from directly electing the President and their representatives, as they are elected in the end by the "Electoral College", and so the election is subjected to the tricks we are witnessing?

One would say that old Constitution needs an urgent refurbishing, neither the country is the same nor the people. New majorities have grown and the world is not exactly the same as that

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Nov 11 2020 22:00 utc | 95

All evidence needs to be brought forward.
All evidence needs to be seen openly, by all. Anyone who thinks that there is a way to hide the facts regarding this matter are not being entirely honest with themselves. Maybe this time Santa Clause will bring them a big sack full of reality, instead of make believe votes.

Posted by: Josh | Nov 11 2020 22:05 utc | 96

Or, to put it another way, modern security and intel services are perfectly capable of determining who anybody at all actually voted for, in reality.
Add to that the fact that any inspection of any recordkeeping at all will reveal whatever discrepancies in this particular issue. The facts determined by honest application of investigation will be quite obvious.

Posted by: Josh | Nov 11 2020 22:10 utc | 97

One of the reasons I voted for Trump this time was that I could see how almost all the plutocrats were against him. Starting with the 1996 election, I've only voted third party. The last two times, I voted for Jill Stein of the Greens. But this time I felt I had to vote against the plutocrats, and Trump was the guy most of the plutocrats most opposed.

Posted by: lysias | Nov 11 2020 22:11 utc | 98

dh-mtl | Nov 11 2020 18:38 utc | 15


Clear in your "mind?" Certainly not clear at all in those of us who don't leave things to minds of any sort...

Reminds me of the song by Carly Simon - "You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you..."


Posted by: dh-mtl | Nov 11 2020 18:38 utc | 15

Three things are clear at this point.

1. Statistical analysis and factual testimony show that there was massive fraud in several key states.

2. This fraud has been organized for months by the democratic party and their oligarchic bosses.

3. If the fraud is allowed to stand, it sets a precedent. All future elections will now be determined by fraud.

It's now up to the supreme court to either oversee the preservation or the destruction of democracy in the U.S.

Posted by: dh-mtl | Nov 11 2020 18:38 utc | 15

What is "democracy," other than some Libertarian fraud to enable narcissists to claim the top of the heap?

Posted by: donten | Nov 11 2020 22:16 utc | 99

Surely the issue should be that the news media decided the result of the Presidential election almost as soon as the polls closed and most of the ballots, if not all, were counted instead of waiting for the Electoral College to decide in December.

Of course calling the election result puts pressure on the Electoral College to choose Biden as President.

The media may have also calculated that by calling the result the way they did, this pushes Donald Trump into making hasty decisions, threatening legal action, rallying Republican voters and soliciting support for litigation, and doing the things that will enable them (the media) to paint Trump and those who voted for him as racist or mean-spirited sore losers. It's as if this whole scenario had been gamed in advance. Biden doesn't have to do anything until his inauguration next January; by doing nothing, he and his circle appear calm and steady, and this impression is sure to appeal to those who voted Democrat.

Posted by: Jen | Nov 11 2020 22:17 utc | 100

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