Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 18, 2020

How Not To Challenge China

The headline of a recent Bloomberg column by one Tyler Cowen is:

Covid Is Increasing America’s Lead Over China.

Its remarkable only for its fervent nationalistic delusion.

This paragraph stands out:

There is one other factor that people are loathe to discuss (with one exception). Yes, the U.S. has botched its response to Covid-19. At the same time, its experience shows that America as a nation can in fact tolerate casualties, too many in fact. It had long been standard Chinese doctrine that Americans are “soft” and unwilling to take on much risk. If you were a Chinese war game planner, might you now reconsider that assumption?

This comes at the same day as a similar delusional State Department policy planning paper sees the light.

The Elements of the China Challenge (pdf)

Axios calls it a "Kennan-style paper". In 1946 George Kennan, then Deputy Chief of Mission of the United States to the USSR, wrote his 'Long Telegram' that defined U.S. Cold War policy towards the Soviet Union for the next decades:

Kennan described dealing with Soviet Communism as "undoubtedly greatest task our diplomacy has ever faced and probably greatest it will ever have to face". In the first two sections, he posited concepts that became the foundation of American Cold War policy:
  • The Soviets perceived themselves at perpetual war with capitalism;
  • The Soviets viewed left-wing, but non-communist, groups in other countries as an even worse enemy of itself than the capitalist ones;
  • The Soviets would use controllable Marxists in the capitalist world as allies;
  • Soviet aggression was fundamentally not aligned with the views of the Russian people or with economic reality, but rooted in historic Russian nationalism and neurosis;
  • The Soviet government's structure inhibited objective or accurate pictures of internal and external reality.

Kennan later said that his paper was misunderstood and that the hostile containment policies that were based on it were wrong and self defeating.

But the China paper which the State Department published is not comparable to the 'Long Telegram'. It is a propaganda piece that reflects the naive views of the outgoing Secretary of State Mike Pompous.

Pompous' premise is that the Chinese people hate the Communist Party of China that runs the country and that China is not a democracy. But that is not what the people of China believe:

Charted below are the survey results from 20 countries, and they illustrate some startling beliefs — not least that 73% of Chinese consider China to be democratic, whereas only 49% of Americans believe the same about the U.S.

Read this thread to find out why that is the case:

ShanghaiPanda @thinking_panda - 9:24 UTC · Sep 15, 2020

On twitter, as a Chinese, the most frequently asked question for me is, why don't you oppose the CPC? Why don't Chinese support western style democracy? Why do Chinese people support President Xi, who has no votes? Now, I'm going to tell them why.(1/N)

Also this one.

The recommendations of the State Department paper listed by Axios are not practical steps but pure ideology:

The blueprint: The paper lays out "ten tasks" for the U.S. to accomplish.

  1. Promoting constitutional government and civil society at home.
  2. Maintaining the world's strongest military.
  3. Fortifying the rules-based international order.
  4. Reevaluating its alliance system.
  5. Strengthening its alliance system and creating new international organizations to promote democracy and human rights.
  6. Cooperating with China when possible and constraining Beijing when appropriate.
  7. Educating Americans about the China challenge.
  8. Train a new generation of public servants who understand great-power competition with China.
  9. Reforming the U.S. education system to help students understand the responsibility of citizenship in a complex information age.
  10. Championing the principles of freedom in word and in deed.

Note especially the points 7 to 10.

They have nothing to do with China. They call for domestic propaganda, more domestic propaganda and even more domestic propaganda.

How brainwashing and stupidifying one's own people is supposed to challenge China is beyond me.

Posted by b on November 18, 2020 at 19:30 UTC | Permalink

Comments
next page »

Yep and China works for years on huge trade with neighbors leaving Amerika in the dust. Amerika how's that trade war working out?

Posted by: jo6pac | Nov 18 2020 19:34 utc | 1

it's so interesting when people pretend to be ignorant when it is useful to them. I thought that was a specific American trait. So let's give the answer to the author asking the question:
Once the Americans are indoctrinated into hating China, they will be willing to go to war with China and will be willing to accept wha the government will do in the name of "fighting China". Same how the Americans were indoctrinated into hating Soviet Union and Communism during the 50s and 60s and 70s. The government then can throw as much money into the military in the name of "fighting China" and the Americans will be fine with it.

Posted by: Hoyeru | Nov 18 2020 19:52 utc | 2

b's 5 bullet points covering Keenan presumptions lends itself to substitution of Soviet / communism w/ Global Corporatist Oligarchy ... not aligned with wishes of citizenry, not democratic, not aligned with reality, etc.

Posted by: Paul Damascene | Nov 18 2020 19:53 utc | 3

during an earlier bout of hong kong protests years ago jackie chan got in (western) hot water for saying that "some people have to much freedom". classic "say the soft part loud" yet many people in china agreed.

the chinese still have an actual society and many realize that one major job of governments is to protect people from other goddamn people. it wasn't the jack mas or the jeff bezoses of the world who helped pull them out of third world conditions into a growing middle class; it was CP policies (for better or worse). this is why ma's latest (and supposedly record breaking) IPO got kiboshed. regulators there sometimes regulate and they put the brakes on his "payday lending 2.0" scam before it screwed potentially millions of people.

in the united states of ayn that's blasphemy against the temple priests of capitalism. there's a very fine line between ann coulter's "invade them with tanks and convert them to christianity" and plumpguido's "invade them with finance and convert them to materialism fundamentalists".

as far as "we have guts" i'm pretty sure NONE of the people who have died planned it and the same amount would have chosen otherwise if they'd had the chance. this jackass thinks people are voluntary cannon fodder in some imaginary war and is thus a f_cking lunatic. so...typical yuppie media.

Posted by: the pair | Nov 18 2020 19:53 utc | 4

Pompeo, if not shamed out of politics soon, will be as bad or worse than Trump, because besides being nuts is a fanatic, crackpot ‘Christian’.

Posted by: TominAZ | Nov 18 2020 19:54 utc | 5

7-10 each sound fine but given the record of recent US leaders I wouldn't expect them to be implemented with the good of mankind in mind.

Posted by: Dave | Nov 18 2020 19:56 utc | 6

I posted this to the Biden thread, but it belongs here.

RTop/ed analysis of Pompeo's China containment policy plan, "The Elements of the China Challenge”:

"Although it is hardly atypical of the President Trump administration, the document is significant because it represents yet another attempt by Secretary of State Mike Pompeo to immortalize his Cold War confrontation between the US and China, bind the succeeding administration to it and most strikingly, institutionalize anti-Beijing ideas into American bureaucracy.

"The push against China by the Trump White House is not designed to be a passing phase, but a permanent and defining change of direction, for which this entire term in office has sought to prepare. This document aims to be a blueprint for long-term ideological struggle and a series of aspirations for maintaining hegemony, an affirmation of priority and a statement that things cannot “go back to normal”. But it makes no guarantee that the US can ever adequately understand China, or that it will succeed in its aims.

"The reference to George F. Kennan in pitching this document is appealing given the historical parallels, but it is not an exact fit and this, in turn, helps shine a light on Pompeo’s own ignorance of China. It might be described in one simple sentence: China is not the Soviet Union and the ideological stakes are not quite the same." [Emphasis Original]

While I'd agree that differences in ideology exist between China and the Outlaw US Empire, it is the Empire that's constructed upon and is living the Big Lie inherent within Neoliberalism, while China continues to perfect its already very efficient system of Collective Libertarianism through its revamped Democratic Centralism. The really big fundamental difference is that China has absolutely no need to lie to its people, whereas the exact opposite's true within the Neoliberal West. After a lengthy period of public input, the government meets and eventually publishes its 5-year plan of development, which is contained within an even larger plan that's also been devised with public input and once put together is also published for public consumption. And since 2010, all plans have existed within China's UN 2030 Development plan, which is also available to the public. In a great many respects. China is a more open society than the Outlaw US Empire. Why? Because it doesn't need to lie to its citizens because it fights against the corruption that provides the reason for such lies--China has no Financial Parasitism it must mask from its citizens whereas the Outlaw US Empire is drowning in a massive sea of corruption that is killing it. Clearly, Pompeo wants that to continue.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 18 2020 19:59 utc | 7

Governments are "tools" to accomplish things. The totalitarian Han Communist Party runs the PRC in a way that the Democratic/Republican Party does not run the United States. Totalitarians recognize no inherent limit on their 'authority' to act. Non-totalitarians do. A totalitarian government is a better 'tool' to command lock step obedience to a central authority because most of the population at large and ALL of the political population knows what happens should the central command total authority be disobeyed or be seen to be disobeyed. So in a plague, war maybe, flooding, famine, fires, the totalitarians will be more effective. So what? In ordinary times I'd rather live under non-totalitarians because incarceration for thought crime is vastly less frequent. Totalitarianism is a 'good tool' for exceptional matters requiring "uniform and disciplined" response. Under normal times its just another Third Reich. Ask any Han who wishes to state a non-approved opinion; any Tibetan wishing to display a photo of the Dalai Lama and any Muslim wishing to be orthodox. Why is it that you don't see people illegally entering totalitarian Han Communist China? well except from an even worse place North Korea. While millions want to "be" in the US? People vote with their feet. They flee from the Totalitarians. They flee toward the US. Power to people feet.

Posted by: Stephen Laudig | Nov 18 2020 20:03 utc | 8

thanks b... i am reminded of the 7-10 bullet points and how they are already being implemented here in canada... see this article from yesterday as an example..
As Conservatives call for crackdown, O'Toole calls Chinese influence a grave 'threat' to Canada
i suspect UK-USA and the other 5 eyes countries are grovelling in the ditch at the moment working out all the details of the plan.. instead of working together they are thinking of a way to have an upper hand in the changes the world is seeing... using propaganda on their own public seems to be the main approach they hope to profit from... i can't see it myself... but i don't want to underestimate the stupidity of people either..

Posted by: james | Nov 18 2020 20:06 utc | 9

I do agree that Kennan's "long telegram" was misconstrued by the NatSec loons of the time to justify what they wanted to do. But that is no surprise, that is how US politics works. It's has always been a racket.

Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 18 2020 20:09 utc | 10

Jack Ma is not creating an out of public control exploitative financial behemoth with the Ant IPO, Jack Ma is cashing in on an already existing enterprise. In some respects Ant is a Ponzi scheme, but in a sense so are most (fundamentally, all?) pure finance firms committed to speculation and indifferent to material production. Expropriating Ant would be socialist policy. Even splitting up Ant and devising regulations for "fair competition" would be more of an actual move against Ant-style end runs over Chinese government control over the capital markets, a merely liberal, petty bourgeois reformist policy a Republican or Democrat from the nineteenth century, or even some from the Thirties, could have endorsed. Further, Ma isn't done yet. If he makes nice the right way with Xi, who knows? The basic principle that Xi lives for, increased market control of investment, is what Ma stands for too.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Nov 18 2020 20:09 utc | 11

@ 8 stephen laudig.. i guess that is why so many people have been leaving the usa the past number of years... i heard the numbers leaving new york city via covid are in huge as well.. while that is not the same, i have witnessed in my lifetime a number of americans voting with their feet from the war in vietnam forward.. i do agree with you in this regard... at the same time there will always be people who wish to live in a world where politics doesn't trump everything.. unfortunately that world is no longer the us of a.. the usa is becoming a banana republic...

Posted by: james | Nov 18 2020 20:10 utc | 12

Here's China's unofficial response via this Global Times editorial. I wish I could reproduce the art at the editorial's header as it's very spot-on:

"There is no new wording in the report, which can be seen as a collection of malicious remarks from Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and other anti-China US politicians and senators. Right now, only a little more than 60 days are left for the current US administration. An official from the State Department explained that the report is not meant to constrain the next US administration. But the fact is the Department of State fears that the Biden administration will adjust US-China relations, and the release of the report is part of their efforts to consolidate the current extreme anti-China path.

"But most Chinese scholars who have read the report believe it is an insult to Kennan by labeling the report as Kennan-style. Kennan, then US charge d'affaires in Moscow, sent an 8,000-word telegram to the Department of State detailing his views on the Soviet Union. At least, there was no special political motive in Kennan's report. But the latest report is trying to leave a legacy for the extreme anti-China policy adopted by the Trump administration and fawning on Pompeo, which is evil in essence.

"The impulsive and capricious governing style of Donald Trump leaves sufficient room for politicians like Pompeo to give free play to their ambitions. The Department of State has become the governmental organ that has the most serious clashes with China, outperforming the CIA and the Department of Defense.

"Diplomats are supposed to be communicators, but Pompeo and his team have chilled the communication atmosphere with China. In the China direction, today's US Department of State can close its door.

"Surrounded by such deep hostility and prejudice toward China and the wild ambition of the secretary of state, how could the Department of State's Office of Policy Planning make out anything objective about China? Their observation ability, cautious attitude toward research, and sense of responsibility for history have been severely squeezed. They are just currying favor from their seniors and manipulating extreme paths, pretending to be 'thoughtful....'

"Chinese diplomatic and academic circles look down upon the Pompeo team, which lacks professionalism, and acts like a group of gangsters suddenly taking official positions. They not only have messed things up, but also hope to build their nonsense as legacy. Pompeo's choice of opportunists like Miles Yu as advisor in particular has increased Chinese people's doubts over the 'amateurism' and 'immorality' of the Pompeo team's China policy....

"The US' China policy is very much like 'drunk driving' internally while on the international stage it's like sailing against the current." [My Emphasis]

There's not much more to add aside for asking barflies to read the entire editorial.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 18 2020 20:12 utc | 13

11. zHe started it!

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 18 2020 20:34 utc | 14

The Soviets viewed left-wing, but non-communist, groups in other countries as an even worse enemy of itself than the capitalist ones

Well, if the resistance is considered left-wing the Soviets were not off target with that valuation.

VK, it would be interesting to know your opinion on that Soviet statement.

Posted by: Paco | Nov 18 2020 20:35 utc | 15

Imo, Chinese political is clearly superior to the western alternative. As usual, the proof is in the pudding: empirical evidence.

Posted by: Mao Cheng Ji | Nov 18 2020 20:40 utc | 16

...Chinese political system, that is.

Posted by: Mao Cheng Ji | Nov 18 2020 20:41 utc | 17

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 18 2020 20:12 utc | 13

Thanks for Global Times ed., sharp.

Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 18 2020 20:49 utc | 18

@ Stephen Laudig | Nov 18 2020 20:03 utc | 8 who wrote about totalitarian

Totalitarian is the definition of the effect of global private finance on the West, is it not?

Totalitarian describes the social contract in the West much more than in China.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 18 2020 20:53 utc | 19

The amount of BS propaganda levels against the American by MSM is incredible and unprecedented ever since I have lived here for over 48 years. Do everybody notice how all dark clouds have gone and bad news have vanished, and rosy peacefully sunny days are ahead of us based on daily coming good news, ever since Biden was elected by all the dead voters. We found out two very viable working vaccines, more people wearing mask and social distance. Financial crises are over. We sent our own rocket to space station. We successfully intercepted ICBMs, etc.etc. So we should learn, everything now is going good , we should put our differences away, come together in a peaceful way and all help to transfer power peacefully to Biden like good citizens our funding fathers (fogers) wanted us to be.

Posted by: Kooshy | Nov 18 2020 20:58 utc | 20

@ Posted by: Paco | Nov 18 2020 20:35 utc | 15

I don't know. The language Kennan used is too vague to make any specific conclusions.

The center-left certainly hated the USSR more than they hated capitalism. Indeed, it was the intellectuals from the center-left - not the right - who created the term "totalitarianism" as we know today.

Posted by: vk | Nov 18 2020 21:09 utc | 21

So far as I can tell , from fiends in Mainland China, there is less spying on private lives of ordinary Chinese than WHAT goes in in any North Atlantic nations . But better managed here. To be less noticeable.

Posted by: Tollef Ås/秋涛乐 | Nov 18 2020 21:09 utc | 22

Points 7 to 10 are for creating the willing cannon fodder for those few that want to rule the world.

Point 3 Forget International Law. Our Rules bases world order superseeds that. The Rules will be what we want them to be at the time of our interventions that wil suit our needs.

America wants to turn every intervention into a mirror copy of it's self. Change the culture of a nation into a little America.

Trying that on with China is an impossible task, Why? Because the Chinese population will not let that happen never mind the Government of the country.

The Washington Bubble which is totally divorced from any reality making stuff up as it goes.

Posted by: KamNam | Nov 18 2020 21:19 utc | 23

We only nust hope the Chinese know more about grand strategy then the Isreáëis know about the practice of grand trickery --good save us all!

Posted by: Tollef Ås/秋涛乐 | Nov 18 2020 21:19 utc | 24

I have been to China several times. I am also in contact with people in China. I can say this. Pompeo's belief that:

... the Chinese people hate the Communist Party of China that runs the country...

- is simply not true.

Among Chinese citizens there has recently been a huge upsurge in positive opinions about the Chinese system. This is due, in part, to its success in containing the Coronavirus.

At the same time there has been a tremendous disillusionment with the United States due to its failure to manage the Coronavirus. There is almost a sense of disbelief that America has failed so badly in dealing with the virus.

There used to be a saying in China that "Even the moon shines more brightly on America." That saying was demonstrated a genuine admiration for the United States and its accomplishments. But due to many things - including the institutional failure to deal with the Coronavirus - very few Chinese people say that anymore.

A second thing that is spurring a positive belief in the Chinese system by its' citizens is China's ever increasing standard of living. People who have never been there might very well find themselves astonished by what is happening there. I have been there four times in the past ten years. Each time, the improvement in the material standard of living is not just noticeable but dramatic. The Chinese people can see this with their own eyes. Before the virus hit, many Chinese citizens had become wealthy enough to the West and they discovered that, increasingly, China was comparing favorably with the West in terms of their standard of living. This has increased the belief among Chinese citizens that their country is on the right path.

There is a third thing that is important to note. There has been a recent rise in Chinese nationalism which is due - not only to the factors mentioned above - but due to Trump and Pompeo themselves. Contrary to common belief, the Chinese have a lot of access to Western media. Many Chinese study English and can read the Western media in English. They know the things being said by Trump and Pompeo which intended to malign China. Many Chinese are, not so much angry but, rather understand this is a sign of increasing weakness on the part of the United States.

In short, the actions of Pompeo are not "inciting the Chinese to act against their government" but rather convincing the Chinese that American greatness is passing into history and China's time is arriving.

Posted by: Mike from Jersey | Nov 18 2020 21:22 utc | 25

The US attempts to demonize China are not gaining any purchase, not going well. Several reasons for that:
China:
> is far away on the other side of the world
> had nothing to do with 9/11
> has a stoic, expressionless president who doesn't say much and looks like he'd rather be elsewhere, and he (Xi, "she") doesn't have a name that can be made a target, a name with syllables in it, like Hit-ler, To-jo, Sad-dam, etc, plus he's smart and experienced
> makes most of our stuff
> isn't a place US corporations will be forced out of, as they won't take orders from the government 'cuz it works the other way -- duh
> is scoring big points with its economic and political successes, while the US has to be satisfied with sailing its warships in China waters and flying its bombers in China's ADIZ, neither having any effect on anything
> is successful because it has a better governmental system with less corruption, which is better able to concentrate on achievements.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 18 2020 21:22 utc | 26

China's slow relentless selling of its dollar assets will "be a persistent and steady process" the aim being to "to trim the foreign exchange reserves to $2 trillion"--a 33% reduction from today's level as the "dollar will be the main object." But at 6-10 billion per month, unloading a trillion will take quite a few years.

I find it curious that after signing the RCEP, China, Japan and South Korea still want to form their own trilateral FTA;

"The negotiations for the trilateral FTA are expected to speed up significantly. And within the RCEP, the three parties will achieve an even higher level of openness commitment....

"When Shinzo Abe was in the office, the China-Japan relationship had already shown some positive signs. Now the new Japanese government led by Prime Minister Yoshihide Suga is deemed to be more pragmatic. Higher levels of economic opening and integration between China and Japan are expected to be reached in the future." [My Emphasis]

I see "pragmatic" as meaning more willing to engage in friendly, mutually beneficial relations. One hopes Moon's government sees the situation similarly and can improve its relations with Japan. The quickest way to get Japan out from under the Outlaw US Empire's boot is for it to become further integrated with all of Asia, and especially with North Korea. But Kim must become more "pragmatic" too. The best way for Kim to remove the security threat from the Outlaw US Empire is reintegrating with the South. There are outstanding benefits waiting for the DPRK once it changes its hostile face to Japan and the South that China and Russia will facilitate.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 18 2020 21:29 utc | 27

"But... but war with China, or even Iran, is crazy! No rational country could even consider it!"

Sure, no "rational" country would even contemplate it.

I've got bad news for you.

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 18 2020 21:32 utc | 28

@ Mike from Jersey | Nov 18 2020 21:22 utc | 25... thanks for sharing and saying all that..

Posted by: james | Nov 18 2020 21:35 utc | 29

I am always amused by people linking China today with past feudal dynasties and Confucian-style government.
Among the problems; this viewpoint is new. The Cultural Revolution is only the most extreme example of “new slate” hagiography which China’s lady rulers deployed - including Shi Huang Ti: the first ruler to unify the nation.
It is also notable that almost all power in China today is still held by the surviving Chinese Revolution leaders and their immediate children.
Only time will tell if China’s leadership will continue to exhibit net societal good goals as opposed to largely selfish ones as seen in the US.

Posted by: c1ue | Nov 18 2020 21:50 utc | 30

For sanctions relief I suggest Iran should give a board seat in NIGC to Hunter. That could work again who knows

Posted by: Kooshy | Nov 18 2020 21:52 utc | 31

Yesterday, Pepe Escobar posted the main points of Xi's BRICS presentation at his FB:

"1. 'At present, the world is caught between the most serious pandemic in the past century and momentous changes never seen in the last one hundred years.

"2. 'The trend toward multipolarity and economic globalization cannot be turned around.'

"Prof. Wang Yiwei, the director of the Institute of International Affairs at Renmin University, and the author of the best Chinese book on the New Silk Roads (and I read them all), went straight to the point:

"China will continue to be the most important driver for regional and global economic growth."

I wrote the following in response:

"Rising Dragon; Falling Eagle. What's most excellent is China's increased emphasis on ecological enhancement in tandem with smart growth that's tied into its 2030 Development goals, many of which are already being accomplished or soon will. There will be no Neoliberal-type Externalities to be shoveled off the balance sheet as is done by those nations and their corporations.

"The bottom line is if you're not watching and learning about China then you're mired in something that was once used to light cooking stoves in China."

Mike from Jersey @25 provides some excellent evidence that deserves repeating:

"There is a third thing that is important to note. There has been a recent rise in Chinese nationalism which is due - not only to the factors mentioned above - but due to Trump and Pompeo themselves. Contrary to common belief, the Chinese have a lot of access to Western media. Many Chinese study English and can read the Western media in English. They know the things being said by Trump and Pompeo which intended to malign China. Many Chinese are, not so much angry but, rather understand this is a sign of increasing weakness on the part of the United States. [My Emphasis]

That is the same manner in which the editor at Global Times frames his editorials when he includes his countryfolks sentiments. He has openly admitted on numerous occasions that Chinese once greatly admired what has become the Outlaw US Empire, but that appreciation has drastically changed over the last 20 years and the Empire only has itself to blame. The fucking idiots running the Empire just cannot bring themselves to share--and that goes back to the real reason for the Cold War (the admission by Kennan about US ongoing consumption of global resources) and beyond. The Prima Donna mind-set and accompanying behavior must cease. But that seems to be beyond the ability of any Neoliberal politico from any nation.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 18 2020 21:55 utc | 32


The claim that the US Covid-19 response demonstrates that the US can "tolerate casualties" is one of the most asinine statements I have ever read. All that it proves is that the US is shockingly incompetent. Incompetence is not generally viewed as a strength.

Posted by: David | Nov 18 2020 21:55 utc | 33

American planers and elite have surly panicked specially since the mega Corona debacle and the messy banana elections, that is visible through the increasingly daily amount of propaganda internally leveled at people, as I wrote earlier I don’t remember this much propaganda even during Vietnam or Iraq wars. Yesterday Obama told Goldberg he believes the biggest threat to US is internet and today Pomp want more propaganda thrown at people inside US, even in schools. How they have panicked to loose their internal and external credibility hegemony
Is in readable. This is the start of the internal imbalance time, which will make the US more violent and destabilizing, in turn makes her external parasite satraps chowing and demanding more to stay alive.

Posted by: Kooshy | Nov 18 2020 22:09 utc | 34

Tyler Cowen: “Furthermore, most European nations have ended up agreeing with the U.S. that Chinese telecom giant Huawei be kept out of the critical parts of their communications infrastructure”.

Anyone who can say the above cannot be believed. It's a pure, blatant and rather transparent lie. The European nations did end up agreeing to keep Huawei out because they were bullied, coerced and threatened. It that's how the Republic intends to kept her hegemony going it won;t be long before she's dethroned, China will take over.


Posted by: Baron | Nov 18 2020 22:31 utc | 35

A new and very well done historical analysis by M.K. BHADRAKUMAR On Karabakh and related historic trade routes


Historical undercurrents in Nagorno-Karabakh
https://indianpunchline.com/historical-undercurrents-in-nagorno-karabakh/

Posted by: Kooshy | Nov 18 2020 22:33 utc | 36

There is one other factor that people are loathe to discuss (with one exception). Yes, the U.S. has botched its response to Covid-19. At the same time, its experience shows that America as a nation can in fact tolerate casualties, too many in fact. It had long been standard Chinese doctrine that Americans are “soft” and unwilling to take on much risk. If you were a Chinese war game planner, might you now reconsider that assumption?

He should've watched this:

A South Dakota ER nurse on her Covid-19 patients: “Their last dying words are, ‘This can’t be happening. It’s not real.’ And when they should be... Facetiming their families, they’re filled with anger and hatred.”

Unethical on the nurse's part? Yes. As a historian, I thank her for this very rare kind of documentation, though.

Posted by: vk | Nov 18 2020 22:34 utc | 37

From Elias Jabbour's* Facebook page (on his opinion over Pompeo's report):

Far from being a pamphlet.

Non-academic, clear and objective. This report from the State Department about China is excellent. The most impressive aspect of this report is the level of the dispute the imperialists put their struggle against China: capitalism vs. socialism. It shows clear acknowledgement of the Chinese strategic project (Marxist-Leninist). It's far from being a pamphlet. In my opinion, this is an obligatory reading. For not being academic, it put the things the way they should be approached: in terms of political power.

I 100% agree with him. I'll have this report saved in my personal archive and maybe even get it printed.

*Brazil's main Popular Republic of China expert.

Posted by: vk | Nov 18 2020 22:52 utc | 38

Pompean recommendation no. 7 "educate in schools about the China challenge"

Commendable sentiment, but Republican politicians from his home region (prairie states) found it difficult to achieve proper education of youth.

>>At a town hall meeting, (US Senator) Coburn said: "You know, John Burkeen is our rep down here in the southeast area. He lives in Coalgate and travels out of Atoka.

"He was telling me lesbianism is so rampant in some of the schools in southeast Oklahoma that they'll only let one girl go to the bathroom. Now, think about it. Think about that issue. How is it that that's happened to us?"<<

News flash: controlling school girls is hard. I can imagine future laments that administrators of cafeterias of schools in southeast Oklahoma struggle in vain to prevent girls from using chopsticks.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Nov 18 2020 22:58 utc | 39

Stephen Laudig @ 8:

"... People vote with their feet. They flee from the Totalitarians. They flee toward the US. Power to people feet."

Well it seems a lot of people have been fleeing FROM the US these days, especially since 2012, and moreover are fleeing for reasons that might be considered ... totalitarian.

After all, didn't the original American colonials way back in the 1770s rebel because they were tired of being taxed by a government in which they had no say and no representation?

Posted by: Jen | Nov 18 2020 23:22 utc | 40

Congratulations China you won.

Posted by: Christian J. Chuba | Nov 18 2020 23:49 utc | 41

Germans certainly think China has come out of the pandemic and ready to do business.

Better off thanks to China': German companies double down on resurgent giant
https://www.yahoo.com/news/better-off-thanks-china-german-061243148.html

Posted by: Erelis | Nov 19 2020 0:00 utc | 42

@ karlof 27
I find it curious that after signing the RCEP, China, Japan and South Korea still want to form their own trilateral FTA;
The three nations account for about 20% of the world's economy, a lot of it with each other, they've all suffered a bit from the US-China trade war and COVID-19, and they are geographically close. They would be looking at both tariff and non-tariff barriers to customize a regional approach in areas not addressed by the RCEP. The negotiations have been going on for years, so it's not a new idea. . And it's another great counter to the US, China linking up with two countries militarily occupied and mostly controlled by the US.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 19 2020 0:34 utc | 43

@ Erelis 42
Thanks for that, very interesting given all the anti-China rhetoric spewing out of Berlin.

. . .while the Chinese recovery may be good news for companies like Hahn, it is complicating efforts by Chancellor Angela Merkel's government to diversify trade relations and become less dependent on Asia's rising superpower.
Despite Berlin's concerns, German industry is deepening ties with China, which battled the pandemic with stricter measures than other countries, moved out of a first lockdown earlier and saw demand rebound more quickly.
Olaf Kiesewetter, CEO of car sensor supplier UST in Thuringia in eastern Germany, shares the same ambition of making 25% of sales in China.
"We clearly notice that China has come out of the crisis with force," he told Reuters, adding that China had already become UST's biggest export market outside the European Union a couple of years ago, accounting for 15% of sales. . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 19 2020 0:40 utc | 44

@8
"Why is it that you don't see people illegally entering totalitarian Han Communist China?"

Because China doesn't organize and support regime change and the associated fascist death squads in neighboring states. USA policy towards the rest of the hemisphere is to wipe out any hint of leftism and destabilize nations so that cheap resources continue to flow North instead of being used by local populations.

The most important of cheap resources is human labor. By intentionally turning Latin American Nations into hellholes, the stream of desperate people coming to the USA is guaranteed. This supply of cheap labor is vital to breaking unions and keeping wages low.

Of secondary importance...but still important. China has tougher immigrations laws, which helps protect it's own labor force from predatory capitalism.

Posted by: Haassaan | Nov 19 2020 0:48 utc | 45

"Covid Is Increasing America’s Lead Over China."
This retard is too far from reality, that's amazing. At this point, he's on a trans-neptunian orbit.
Besides the economic hit in the West, besides the fact that people in the West can see how fucked up their system and their leaders are, this shows to the rest of the world which is the more efficient, between West and China, and Chinese people can see how both America and the whole Europe screwed up and made a disaster out of something that was mostly avoidable. The West has truly lost the lead this year, for good.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Nov 19 2020 0:49 utc | 46

I've done a lot of referring to this document over the past several weeks and ever since I discovered it in 2016, and just now relocated it. Its title, "China's Position Paper on the Implementation of the 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development," and contents are China's answer to the UN's 2015 Sustainable Development Summit. I've previously linked to almost all aspects of the UN's very ambitious plan to lift people out of poverty. Here's China's National Plan to Implement SDGs (Sustainable Development Goals), which are broken down into 17 areas. Do note the first four, No Poverty, Zero Hunger, Good Health & Wellbeing, and Quality Education have already been mostly accomplished. These two primary documents hold no secrets about China's aims, are approved by the UN and are done in concert with all other developing nations, so most of the world is curious as to why the Outlaw US Empire is so fanatical--unhinged crazy--when it comes to China. I'd suspect most every Chinese knows what those two documents contain and completely agree on their being implemented. That China's having great success in accomplishing its aims reinforces the confidence of its people to strive further since it's clear to all that the SDGs can be made reality.

Like it or not, China is now the #1 example for the world's developing nations, many who've been held back by IMF/World Bank policies that amounted to robbery and mal-development--the Structural Adjustment Programs which were Neoliberal devices to suck wealth from nations, not build them up. So, the Outlaw US Empire and West generally have only themselves to blame for China gaining the world's reverence. It's that reality from which policy ought to be drawn, not from the obscene minds of a fanatic team of Prima Donna Parasites.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 19 2020 0:54 utc | 47

Apparently this guy has not left his house in some time.
The non-elderly people in US tend to be poorly educated (incapable of technical jobs), overweight and taking many prescription and/or illegal drugs.
There might be additional fatalities compared to a properly developed country (China, for example). I don't think this shows military resilience.

Posted by: Fred Flintstone | Nov 19 2020 0:55 utc | 48

Readers interested in technology might want to look a a new report from a high-powered team that's out. . .MEETING THE CHINA CHALLENGE: A New American Strategy for Technology Competition

Spengler has a (paywalled) article in Asia Times on it: ‘China Challenge’ report signals US tech war retreat
'A total global market ban on Huawei is not practical,' Biden advisers say . . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 19 2020 1:06 utc | 49

@ karlof 47
I don't recall that China's four SDGs were mentioned in recent US political campaigns. . . No Poverty, Zero Hunger, Good Health & Wellbeing, and Quality Education. . . .but I didn't pay much attention, either. Candidates may well have mentioned these important topics, for all I know. At least they should have, in this 'democracy.'

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 19 2020 1:15 utc | 50

"The Pair #4"
the chinese still have an actual society and many realize that one major job of governments is to protect people from other goddamn people. it wasn't the jack mas or the jeff bezoses of the world who helped pull them out of third world conditions into a growing middle class; it was CP policies (for better or worse). this is why ma's latest (and supposedly record breaking) IPO got kiboshed. regulators there sometimes regulate and they put the brakes on his "payday lending 2.0" scam before it screwed potentially millions of people.
***

Absolutely.
Government's job should be to do what the private sector won't do (safety net, basic R&D) or to protect the public against the wolves. Instead they are hand in glove, full spectrum predators.

Posted by: Fred Flintstone | Nov 19 2020 1:16 utc | 51

Point 9 in the recommendations:

"Think the way we tell you [about China and everything else]."

Posted by: Jay | Nov 19 2020 1:18 utc | 52

Don Bacon @50--

Thanks Don! Your comment elicited a wry smile. I wish I'd gone to China to teach, but I made a different choice. Of course the USA brushed off those development goals, probably because they were too lofty!

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 19 2020 1:23 utc | 53

@ Erelis (42) and Don Bacon (44)
I kinda knew there'd be a disconnect between the German government and German business owners and industrialists. If I recall correctly, many of these companies also opposed EU sanctions towards Russia and invested millions of euros on the Nord Stream II pipeline.

Posted by: joey_n | Nov 19 2020 1:48 utc | 54

USA nowadays does feel like the later days of the Qing Empire, where they believed chinese kung fu can beat guns.

Delusion runs the house.

Posted by: Smith | Nov 19 2020 1:50 utc | 55

How brainwashing and stupidifying one's own people is supposed to challenge China is beyond me.

The State Department points by b are one more example of how the governing "elite" have come to believe their own endless propaganda. That is what makes the situation so dangerous. As William Gruff rather eloquently points out in his comment (#28), there is no rationality in these non-agreement capable fools.

Posted by: Perimetr | Nov 19 2020 2:05 utc | 56

Posted by: Kooshy | Nov 18 2020 21:52 utc | 31 -- "For sanctions relief I suggest Iran should give a board seat in NIGC to Hunter."

That gave me a chuckle, although we have to weigh that against the danger of exposing Iranian girls needed for the world-famous "Hunter massage". AND, horrors.... his dad might come along to sniff, sniff, sniff.... grab, grab, grab....

Posted by: kiwiklown | Nov 19 2020 2:36 utc | 57

@ Perimetr 56
How brainwashing and stupidifying one's own people is supposed to challenge China is beyond me
The US education system has always been process-centered and not student-centered. Standardized lectures followed by standardized testing, that's the ticket. . . .training vs. education

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 19 2020 2:38 utc | 58

@ Don Bacon | Nov 19 2020 0:34 utc | 43 with the follow up to karlof1 about a separate China/SK/Japan trade agreement.

Thanks for the additional information.

Of course it makes me think about the financial implications of such agreement in the civilization war we are in. Both China and Japan hold the most US Treasuries of any countries, about $1 trillion each. These are significant weapons of financial war and would be extremely powerful if combined.

I see the financial aspects of the civilization war escalating because the military aspects are being stymied. The issue I see with the projection of global financial manipulation by empire is its current situation with Covid in comparison with China and other countries that took the virus seriously will bring the global debt situation to a climax. What that looks like is fairly ugly initially because, by definition, a failure of faith in mediums of exchange cause massive uncertainty and associated social unrest/upheaval. How that faith is restored and it what sort of public/private arrangements is what will set the stage for the next phase of our species interactive narratives.....may they be mutually supportive.

I see the uptick today in tulip mania purchase of other private money trinkets like Bitcoin as indicative of late stage Roaring 20's attitudes compressed into a year this time around instead of the decade last century.....I don't see it taking a decade for this shit show to hit the wall and splatter all over.....

May you live in interesting time....

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 19 2020 2:38 utc | 59

Mike from Jersey @ 25 -- Thanks for a most informative and insight-filled comment.

Those of us who have watched Singapore's meteoric rise within just a couple generations might understand that China is like that, only 10X faster.

I can only agree with Karlof1 that if we're not watching and learning about China then you're mired in something that was once used to light cooking stoves in China.

I tell young white fellas to go East, but they decline, saying that Chinese eat dog, and lately, bat.

Posted by: kiwiklown | Nov 19 2020 2:44 utc | 60

karlof1 @ 32, @ 47 -- 100% in agreement with you. Love your "Rising Dragon; Falling Eagle".

It is so contemptible that US 'leaders', in pursuing their personal advance in terms of marthas vineyard mansions and revolving-door lobbyist jobs, abuse Main Street America's best interests so massively.

As well, it is pitiable to see main streeters attack proper-thinking people like you and others on this blog for pointing out truth as she is writ in real time -- history in the making. I guess it is easier to shoot darts at keyboard 'enemies' than to take up your advice to learn from China.

But people in the top 0.1%, eg. no less than a Jim Rogers, a one-time business partner of Soros during the Great British Pound Robbery, had 'gone East', taking up abode (citizenship?) in Singapore, AND educating his daughters (they will manage his huge fortune in future) in Mandarin. And Zuckerborg too, it would seem.

Posted by: kiwiklown | Nov 19 2020 3:13 utc | 61

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 18 2020 19:59 utc | 7 -- "In a great many respects. China is a more open society than the Outlaw US Empire. Why? Because it doesn't need to lie to its citizens because it fights against the corruption that provides the reason for such lies--China has no Financial Parasitism it must mask from its citizens whereas the Outlaw US Empire is drowning in a massive sea of corruption that is killing it."

Just waiting to see which of our great keyboard warriors here will come out to attack you for that 'sacrilege'. It is always harder to accept criticism when the truth is with the critic.

But to fortify you, here is something from another great thinker:

“The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naïve and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.” – H.L. Mencken

Posted by: kiwiklown | Nov 19 2020 3:20 utc | 62

Fred Flintstone, 48:

"The non-elderly people in US tend to be poorly educated (incapable of technical jobs), overweight and taking many prescription and/or illegal drugs."

Where do you get your "information" about the non-elderly in the USA?

Posted by: Jay | Nov 19 2020 3:23 utc | 63

b -- "How brainwashing and stupidifying one's own people is supposed to challenge China is beyond me."

The Chinese neighbour across the ocean grows more rice to better feed their people, and the Insane Nation calls that a 'challenge'; no, a 'threat'; and worse, a 'danger' which must be 'contained'.

What next? Will they scream, "Xi must go", and "Better to fight those dastardly rice growers over there than over here"?

Thanks, b, for pointing out the jawdropping insanity of US 'leadership'. Have they stopped to ask why challenge? why not cooperate? Might it be that all this rabid crazy talking is create an ostensible enemy, the better to sell planes and missiles?

[ Yes, I see that Hoyeru @ 2 is already on to it: "The government then can throw as much money into the military in the name of "fighting China" and the Americans will be fine with it." ]

Poor, poor America. Main Street, that is to say.

Posted by: kiwiklown | Nov 19 2020 3:24 utc | 64

Thanks all for this discussion. Illuminating.

@ Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 19 2020 0:54 utc | 47

”No Poverty, Zero Hunger, Good Health & Wellbeing, and Quality Education have already been mostly accomplished. These two primary documents hold no secrets about China's aims, are approved by the UN and are done in concert with all other developing nations, so most of the world is curious as to why the Outlaw US Empire is so fanatical--unhinged crazy--when it comes to China.”

The younger generations here (in USA) probably frighten the ruling class who are themselves in-fighting over how to keep their stinking sinking empire afloat while younger people are embracing socialism. These kids understand the current system has completely failed them and the rest of the world. And many of them have little to lose. A near majority (perhaps more? ) of people under 30 now look favorably on socialism, democratic socialism, or some variant, however well understood or misunderstood, something the ruling class thinks it must quash, end, silence ASAP. Thus all the domestic internet search engine censorship. They, the elite, fear the working class becoming united and fighting for authentic democracy more than they fear nuclear winter or climate chaos, the criminals.

”That China's having great success in accomplishing its aims reinforces the confidence of its people to strive further since it's clear to all that the SDGs can be made reality.”

No right/good governance examples are allowed by the outlaw empire as per Chomsky’s analysis of the empire’s marauding and disruption of the social democracies of Latin America. This is the now fading empire’s modus operandi. China is now #1 “bad behaviour” country (Pompous’ words). Applying the formula, this means China is good for its people.

”Like it or not, China is now the #1 example for the world's developing nations, many who've been held back by IMF/World Bank policies that amounted to robbery and mal-development--the Structural Adjustment Programs which were Neoliberal devices to suck wealth from nations, not build them up. So, the Outlaw US Empire and West generally have only themselves to blame for China gaining the world's reverence. It's that reality from which policy ought to be drawn, not from the obscene minds of a fanatic team of Prima Donna Parasites.”

A saying comes to mind: Don’t go chasing after results for which there are no causes.

Whether removing delusional thinking is possible is a question. I recall the introduction Assange wrote for his wikileaks book where he said the us government forbids its employees from reading any of the released documents ( which historians are using to write history based on primary documents) and if they come across any they must report it to higher authorities. So it’s like living in a veiled world where truth cannot penetrate for those on career ladders.

Posted by: suzan | Nov 19 2020 3:26 utc | 65

@ Stephen Laudig | 8

Better to narrow blame for Chinese totalitarianism down more: I personally know some 100% PR Chinese Han who fully oppose Xi Jinping's foreign aggression and national freedom suppression. The culprits are not all Han, not even all CCP members; they are the few leaders of the CCP pushing in this direction.
Even a free majority can be fooled: in the July 1932 German federal election the Nazi party became the biggest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_1932_German_federal_election
With the Enabling Act of 1933 the Nazis took permanent power, like the CCP.
Then came the Reichsautobahnen, Volkswagen, cheap labor for Krupp, IG Farben and Flick.
Already then US billionaires like Ford were enabling exploitation also in NAZI Germany, globalist profiteering knows no boundaries.

Posted by: Antonym | Nov 19 2020 3:51 utc | 66

Thank you MOA for another brilliant thread.

Thanks also to all the insightful replies and links to all the background material.

Posted by: OHOH | Nov 19 2020 3:58 utc | 67

Paper produced in response to what it refers to as Beijing’s intent to ‘fundamentally revise world order’ around its own ‘authoritarian goals’

The authoritarians are going to save us from the authoritarians. God help us all.

It would take the MSM about a month to brainwash everyone to go to war with China. I suspect that most mainland Chinese are very proud patriotic people. They are probably very proud to see them project their power after getting their noses rubbed in dung for 500 years by the Anglo European establishment.

They just tested some anti ship ballistic missiles with a range out to about Guam. That would protect power across an arc of quite a bit of the sea approaches to the mainland. Warfare has changed dramatically with drones and hyper sonic missiles. Ships are no more than sacrificial toys for the boys to get the war going.

They are approaching high class military status. The days of the Chinese human wave assaults by barefoot men in the snows of Korea are long gone. I suspect their neighbors get it and if the Chinese play it cool they will not want the European military's anchoring in their harbors too much longer.

Posted by: circumspect | Nov 19 2020 4:11 utc | 68

I concur with OHOH #66, Another great thread. Thanks to all the contributors tonight. I wonder how Canada will extricate itself from the Meng Wanzhou fiasco. The Conservative are singing from the same hymn book the Liberals are and the endgame for both will to make meringue from all the egg on their faces.

Posted by: Tom | Nov 19 2020 5:27 utc | 69

I've been cruising you tube tonight and I am seeing loads of Epoch Times advertising (i.e. China bashing). Nothing is a coincidence?

Posted by: Tom | Nov 19 2020 5:41 utc | 70

How Not To Challenge China

USA/Empire POV: China is challenging the West.

USA/Empire response to this 'challenge' is childish (as per my comment @Nov18 20:34 #14) because their whole strategy fell apart when Russia allied with China. Until 2013-14 they had assumed that Russia would join with the West - TINA!

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 19 2020 5:45 utc | 71

@ Tom | Nov 19 2020 5:41 utc | 69 writing about Epoch Times

I remember them as the ones I first read about the whistleblower coming forward about the voting machines tampering with outcomes. What money boys are behind Epoch Times?

I keep reading web sites that seem to be pushing closure behind Biden and think that there is serious negotiation going on behind the scenes. Trump does not want to end up in jail after leaving office and he has enough dirt on the DC pols to leverage an exit plan that has him not having go leave the country.

What a shit show going on both in front of us and assuredly behind the scenes. America has the best government global private finance money can buy and it is on display in comparison to leadership in say China and Russia.......

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 19 2020 5:59 utc | 72

I wonder how Canada will extricate itself from the Meng Wanzhou fiasco.

Tom | Nov 19 2020 5:27 utc | 68:

They won't. They'll double down.

Posted by: Ian2 | Nov 19 2020 6:28 utc | 73

It becomes obvious if one applies the summary of the "long telegram" to the contemporary USA:

The Americans perceive themselves at perpetual war with the enemies of "freedom and democracy".
The Americanss view secular, but non-"freedom and democracy", groups or countries (e.g. Syria, Russia, China) as an even worse enemy of itself than the head-choppers.
The Americans would use controllable Liberals in the non-Western world as allies.
US aggression is fundamentally not aligned with the views of the American people or with economic reality, but rooted in historic American exceptionalism and indispensableism.
The American "elite"'s structure inhibits objective or accurate pictures of internal and external reality.

There are of course many fundamental differences between the USA of 2020 and the Soviet Union. The one important similarity is that the USA of today is ruled by an "elite"/nomenclatura detached from the social reality of their country and at the same time deeply submerged into a messianic ideology of world salvation.

Their behavious cannot be explained by what an outside observer would call "rationality" but only from the point of view of the American ideology.

Posted by: m | Nov 19 2020 7:35 utc | 74

The US can't possible maintain a strong military with a rapidly declining industrial base. The Chinese compete at the foundation level - technology.

Posted by: Nexus321 | Nov 19 2020 8:05 utc | 75

that America as a nation can in fact tolerate casualties
Well I'll be damned. We are just tolerating casualties. Stupid me, I could have sworn both parties were doing everything they can possibly think of to maximise the number of poor Americans that die.

Posted by: UserFriendly | Nov 19 2020 8:58 utc | 76

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 19 2020 5:59 utc | 71

One thing for sure, Trump wont be going to jail for committing war crimes. I find it hard to believe the Democrats would go that far. Wouldn't that open a can of worms labelled retaliate? If Trump wins the court case well he isn't going anywhere. Isn't there an unspoken rule on this sort of "stuff"?

Posted by: Ian2 | Nov 19 2020 6:28 utc | 72
Yes, Canada will double down, but once Meng Wanzhou is on a Max737 (what else could go wrong?) to NYC, Canada can't go any lower, doubling down or with relations with China. Those two Canadian spies will see a speedy trial and our dealings with China will be in the toilet. Just think, Canada was a trailbreaker selling wheat to China in the late 50's in site of a lot of pressure from the US and was one of the first nations to recgonise China diplomatically. Throwing that all away and the cultural capital of Norman Bethune. I expect another crisis to pop up to divert the gaze from that trainwreck.

And isn't Biden's ''transition team" committing the same crimes retired United States Army lieutenant Michael Flynn "committed? Wont hear Racist Madcow bellowing about that will we?

Posted by: Tom | Nov 19 2020 9:06 utc | 77

Bloomberg as a finger on the pulse of the Chinese 99.9?

Here is what Bloomberg's friends, the Chinese 0.1% were not doing:
"Who Bought the Monstrous $4.2 Trillion Added to the Incredibly Spiking US National Debt in 12 Months? Everyone but China" https://wolfstreet.com/2020/11/19/who-bought-the-monstrous-4-2-trillion-of-incredibly-spiking-u-s-national-debt-added-over-the-past-12-months-everyone-but-china/

Posted by: Antonym | Nov 19 2020 9:11 utc | 78

don't we have enough facts about the great divide of humanity.. ? 255 nation states each one of them with propaganda machines telling 8 billion victims of those boundaries how much to hate and who to hate in the 255 other nation states.

Curcumstance @ 59 makes the understatement of the year: "The authoritarians are going to save us from the authoritarians. God help us all.The problem "

Humanity need its own 10 year plan.. we the humans will by 2030 evolve our civilization beyond human led nation state governance. We will dissolve the nation state system, and imprison those in the nation state system who have deceived us, we will live off the wealth the leaders stole from us while they were the leaders and feast off the happiness and peace that their leadership denied to us all.

Posted by: snake | Nov 19 2020 10:40 utc | 79

This might be a bit off topic but in any case China is mentioned and I think you guys back in the old USA will enjoy watching your ex-president selling books and giving one of his lectures with a very polished sweet talk and disinfection of his very sad years on top of the world.

The interview is in English -so no problem for you guys- with Spanish subtitles, a plus to whoever is studying our language, and it is conducted by the director -awful accent he has- of El País, which would be the equivalent of the NYTimes, an old glory medium presently owned by a US investment fund and the ideal megaphone for everything imperial, as viewed and obeyed by a colony, that goes without saying.

I took some notes of what I thought were real shockers like for instance:

Alternative reality, social media and the internet, how do we go back to a commons based on facts? (Groucho, if you don't like my facts I have other)

History does not move always forward. (And we call ourselves progressives)

Bush welcomed us to the WH. And as he did we left instructions for the Trump team, including instructions to deal with a possible pandemic, but seems like those instructions were never read. (Sanctifying Dubbya)

What we can do in our short period on earth is to move the needle in the direction of more peace, more justice, more compassion, that’s the lesson that I learned as president, the world was a better place when I left than what it was when I came in, Trump attempted to go back. (The world is a lot better now that we have drones)

Social media, difficult to control in a democracy, unlike in China¡¡¡¡ where the state determines what’s allowed and what’s not. That’s not something that I want in the USA. (No need for us to censor, the media does it for us)

Health insurance, I would have loved to have everybody insured but I was constrained¡¡¡¡ Aspirations and ideals are a math game¡¡¡¡ how many votes you have. Better half a loaf than no loaf…. (what a loafer.)

https://elpais.com/videos/2020-11-18/la-entrevista-completa-a-barack-obama-en-video.html

Posted by: Paco | Nov 19 2020 11:10 utc | 80

Thank you Karlof1 you are nailing it as usual.

Back during the primaries I commented several times around the net that if Sanders was elected we would have to bomb ourselves back into the stone age. No one understood what the hell I was talking about. Oh well!

Posted by: jef | Nov 19 2020 11:46 utc | 81

Is it worth pointing out that this is the same administration you’ve recently been aiding with as being somehow anti-imperialism, even going so far as to suggest that vaccine announcements were timed to inflict political damage? They’re incompetent and live in a fantasy world of American exceptionalism that’s goes far beyond any other time in modern American history. Our willingness to “take casualties” is laughable. Taking unnecessary casualties is a sign of idiocy not strength. A strong nation would have a rational approach to a novel virus and people would generally work together for the good of the country as a whole.

You’re right about the imperial stenography rooted only in fantasy and you’re also right about the insanity of that DoS announcement which uses a lot of words to say nothing except broadly outline a plan of the US turning into a pliant dictatorship based on propaganda (we’re well conditioned to propaganda so it has a good shot at success, witness how many people don’t believe in a virus or that an old conman who shuts his pants and wears makeup is the pinnacle of manliness and intelligence). China isn’t frightened by “our willingness to take casualties” like everyone else they’re laughing at us for how fucking dumb we are and how we can’t even supply basic needs like PPE in a pandemic. The only people who don’t know the empire is dying are the majority of Americans.

Posted by: Lex | Nov 19 2020 12:09 utc | 82

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free.” - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

In the USA, people's idea of freedom and democracy is having the choice of 2 restaurant chains where the menu hasn't changed for decades. One serves meat dishes, the other serves fish dishes. They are excellent foods and any other food or recipe is not worth eating or considering. Anyone offering vegetarian dishes is a dirty stinking communist and must be put out of business at all costs.

In China, there is only one restaurant chain, but the menu has all kinds of foods and recipes and is updated based on market demands and product availability. The customer feedback process is somewhat complicated, complaining to the chef is considered extremely rude, but has eventually succeeded in removing some unpopular items.

You tell me where you would rather eat every day.

Personally, I'd still choose Europe, where often limited ingredients are countered by creative cuisine, interesting flavour combinations and a variety of recipes and restaurants. Perhaps the best illusion of choice...

Posted by: Et Tu | Nov 19 2020 12:22 utc | 83

Why we hate China another reason just occurred to me and it just might top the list ...
1. It self-refutes the argument that if you allow a 'despotic' country to join the world community and open up its economy that it leads to 'good behavior'. This will now justify continued aggression against, Iran, Cuba, Venezuela, Syria, ... The Ingraham's will cackle, 'we tried it with China and it only emboldened them to be stronger and more evil'

previous reasons ...
2. Destroying China is the key to destroying Iran.

3. Destroying China is the key to world domination (same as #2, but #2 has to be itemized as a lifelong goal of Neocons).

BTW I love the delusion that Covid made us stronger. Yeah by adding $3T to our debt.

Posted by: Christian J. Chuba | Nov 19 2020 12:48 utc | 84

Posted by: Lex | Nov 19 2020 12:09 utc | 82

"our willingness to take casualties”

Famous last words from chickenhawks, until they are the ones doing the dying.

Posted by: J W | Nov 19 2020 12:57 utc | 85

The ShanghaiPanda tweet sounds to me like an idealized and naive distortion of the Chinese reality. Someone told me, for example, that most Chinese college students at the time of the Tiananmin massacre were the favored offspring of Communist Party members. More recently, the Chinese government has undertaken several anti-corruption drives. A while ago, maybe 10-15 years ago, the current leader was challenged by a reformer for the leadership and the challenger was put in jail.

Posted by: Edward | Nov 19 2020 13:24 utc | 86

Parts of this plan are already in place. The pandemic closes the schools forcing students into online classes and like magic we have Google Classroom to the rescue. One voice speaking to most of the children in the country. How easy to shape their minds at a stressful and vulnerable time. It's also a great tool to refine the propaganda narrative by getting virtually instantaneous feedback on how children think. All one would have to do is structure the questions to get the desired result.
A dissenting teacher would be largely silenced since they no longer have the access they once had. Monitoring Google Classroom I see many errors, far too many to be coincidental and wonder what purpose this serves.
Deceptive questions, blatant reading comprehension errors, failure to maintain tense in question / answer problems and answers that are opinions and not facts are rampant. And the reinforcement for the children is a "wrong answer" is punished by a lower grade.
When we see private institutions begin to be marginalized we will know that the time has come for another "Great Reset"

Posted by: anon48 | Nov 19 2020 13:41 utc | 87

Edward @86

What's curious is that when "Someone told me..." stuff about some place that you didn't think to yourself "Sounds to me like a jingoist and deceptive distortion of the Chinese reality."

I know it is difficult for Americans to come to grips with, but it is you who is brainwashed, not the rest of the world.

You need proof? There is evidence right in your own post that the version of reality in your imagination does not match the objective reality of the physical world. Consider your own words: "A while ago, maybe 10-15 years ago, the current leader was challenged..."

Xi Jinping ("the current leader") was elected General Secretary of the CCP in 2012 (thus leader of the CCP) and elected President of the PRC (thus leader of China) in 2013.

The current leader of China wasn't leader of China 10-15 years ago. That was Hu Jintao.

So you see, you have a fabricated version of reality floating around in your head. That is prime evidence of brainwashing. To put it bluntly, you've been brainwashed. I tell you this not to criticize or belittle you but rather to provide you with actionable information that you can use to try and correct your problem.

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 19 2020 13:50 utc | 88

@ Posted by: anon48 | Nov 19 2020 13:41 utc | 87

Sounds like your basic, bread-and-butter disaster capitalism.

I still fail to see the meaning of the term "The Great Reset".

Posted by: vk | Nov 19 2020 14:07 utc | 89

Ouch!

Five Eyes decays into US fan club, lapdog: Global Times editorial

Posted by: vk | Nov 19 2020 14:20 utc | 90

Laudig (8) has a skewed view of "voting with feet" and totalitarian policy and US "freedom/democracy".

10s of millions voted with feet as we spread our "democracy and freedom" in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Somalia, etc with our armed freedom(totalitarian) and sanction policy. Many go to Turkey/Europe.

We do the same with coups/proxies/sanctions(freedom and democracy) in the Americas and have millions as low paid illegal labour "voting with feet" to the US to break our unions and drop wages for the oligarchs who have the "freedom" to hire them with no penalties.

We can hardly wait to do armed freedom/democracy and sanctions to Asia again like we did in Korea/Vietnam/Laos/Cambodia.

Posted by: johnny law | Nov 19 2020 14:25 utc | 91

Let's not forget racism. The first significant Chinese immigration to North America began with the California Gold Rush of 1848 and it continued with subsequent large labor projects, such as the building of the First Transcontinental Railroad. Then, when the work was done, the hammer came down. wiki....

The Chinese Exclusion Act was a United States federal law signed by President Chester A. Arthur on May 6, 1882, prohibiting all immigration of Chinese laborers. Building on the 1875 Page Act, which banned Chinese women from immigrating to the United States, the Chinese Exclusion Act was the first, and remains the only law to have been implemented, to prevent all members of a specific ethnic or national group from immigrating to the United States.

This law also made it difficult for Chinese to stay in country, so many emigrated south. wiki. . .
La Chinesca is a neighborhood located in the Mexican city of Mexicali. The location is home to about 15,000 people of Chinese origin, historically the largest Chinese community in Mexico. However, as of 2012, this number was surpassed by Tijuana's La Mesa District which is home to approximately 15,000 Chinese immigrants and people of Chinese descent.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 19 2020 14:59 utc | 92

this tweet just in...
The #COVID19 outbreak in Kashi, NW China's #Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region was declared ended on Thursday, after the last 4 confirmed patients recovered and 34 asymptomatic patients were discharged from medical observation: report. . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 19 2020 15:14 utc | 93

vk@89

The "Great Reset" has been defined (by others) as an economic reset of the world economy as precipitated by the Covid crisis. In that regard it has been highly successful. What I was referring to was a secondary reset of the educational system to program a new generation in line with the points posted by b.

Posted by: anon48 | Nov 19 2020 15:32 utc | 94

The notion that China is simply a totalitarian bureaucracy is convenient for Americans but ignores the fact that the US locks more of its own citizens up for non-violent crimes than the PRC under the "totalitarian" Communist Party does. In fact the Chinese and Americans have more in common than either of their propagandists probably realize. Libertarian socialists like Cornelius Castoriadis saw in the twentieth century that Stalinist bureaucracies "Western" liberal democracies were converging on a similar authoritarian style of government.

It's better to be a poor person in parts of China than it is to be a poor person in parts of the US. You would have better outcomes being born to a random family in Havana, Cuba (another "totalitarian" society), than to be born to a random family in the Mississippi river delta in the US (and you would be about as likely to go to jail). The difference between the US and China is that one is declining and the other isn't, and sooner than you think the former will be eclipsed by the latter.

Keep thinking in the outdated paradigm of the nation-state and nationalism and that eclipse will have happen even faster. Trump-style nationalism has been a disaster and if Biden doesn't break from it things will only get worse.

Posted by: fnord | Nov 19 2020 15:54 utc | 95

There exists a real "China challenge", namely draining the economy from jobs that support communities and trade balance. That is partially caused by the way rules of international exchange of goods and services are negotiated. The current paradigm is "loose-loose".

Restrictions in the trade of goods can increase domestic investments and jobs, provided that they stem from treaties (long term perspective needed for investments) and not whimsical trade wars and sanctions. Additionally, rules on "intellectual property", "financial services" etc. create profits for USA companies that hardly trickle to a wide work force. Typical thrust of American negotiations was to get "beneficial" concessions on the latter in exchange for "free trade" in the former.

Domestically, this drives inequality up, something that allowed Trump to become a "champion of the working class". But did Trump negotiated anything to their benefit? One can cite changes in NAFTA, but I doubt it. On the other hand, the most disputed points in now broken negotiations with China was "intellectual property". And the method chosen for that conflict simply drives the assembly of imported goods to countries with labor costs lower than China like Vietnam -- Commies there created infrastructure that allows to do it quickly.

Of course, there is also the need for a powerful boogieman etc., the issue has many facets.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Nov 19 2020 16:06 utc | 96

Famous last words from chickenhawks, until they are the ones doing the dying.

Posted by: J W | Nov 19 2020 12:57 utc | 85

Some taxonomists claim that chickenhawk is not related to Galliformes but to Phoenix. Even if you burn them, they rise again. Tiny brains and weak muscles are only a superficial similarity of chickenhawks to chicken.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Nov 19 2020 16:13 utc | 97

Morning Fun
I just read in Iranian news sites, China’ foreign ministry spokesman in reply to a warning from the so called ” five eyes” on Hong Kong, said, “be careful not to become blind”

Posted by: kooshy | Nov 19 2020 16:24 utc | 98

William @88

The person who made the claim about the students had been an exchange student there. I don't think she had a jingoist agenda. Of course, she made the claim in 1989 and the situation might be different now.

The power struggle story is from an article in the Asia Times, possibly by Peter Lee, who wrote many of their China articles in the past, and at this point I have forgotten the details.

I think the ShanghaiPanda tweet is simplistic. It reminds of the way U.S. politics is presented to U.S. students in civics classes. Yes, on paper Americans have such-and-such rights, and on paper the political system works this-and-that way, but the actual practice is different and more complicated from what is on paper. The tweet presented the official "paper" version of China's political system, but I am skeptical this is the whole story.

I might mention that the aforementioned student also told me that on paper the Chinese enjoyed more rights then Americans, but these rights were not observed by the Chinese government, at least in 1989. She said that contrary to western reporting, the students were not demanding an American political system, but were calling for the rules the Chinese government was supposed to follow to be observed. She said these protests happened every year, but for some reason they became huge in 1989.

Yes, there is a lot of ridiculous anti-Russia and anti-China hype in the west, but one can also go too far in the other direction and dismiss critical statements about these countries out of hand.

Posted by: Edward | Nov 19 2020 16:32 utc | 99

@ Posted by: Piotr Berman | Nov 19 2020 16:06 utc | 96

You proposal wouldn't work because the profit rates in the USA are very low.

Protectionism worked during Hamilton's era because profit rates in the USA were extremely high. British capital then flooded to America while America kept it in its shores because imports of competing manufactures wasn't possible.

If you enforce protectionism while your social profit rate is low, it will only accelerate your decay.

Posted by: vk | Nov 19 2020 17:22 utc | 100

next page »

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Working...