Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 08, 2020

The MoA Election Week In Review

Last week's posts at Moon of Alabama:

> Public PBS and NPR provided extensive coverage to presidential candidates in their newscasts with President Trump receiving 48 per cent of all politics-related news coverage on both channels, largely critical. Former Vice President Biden and his campaign received 18 per cent of such coverage on PBS and 20 per cent on NPR, most of which was neutral. On the three national TV networks (ABC, CBS, and NBC) President Trump received 63, 56 and 60 per cent of prime time politics-related news coverage, respectively, most of which was critical, while former Vice President Biden received 20, 25 and 22 per cent, respectively, mainly in a neutral tone. The cable networks were mostly relying on reporting opinions at the expense of balanced coverage. MSNBC, and, albeit to a lesser degree, CNN, portrayed the incumbent President very negatively, and Fox News showed open bias with demeaning vocabulary against former Vice President Biden in some of its evening shows. <

> Though the maths and maps suggests Biden will likely reach 270 Electoral votes, the old saying ‘It ain’t over ’till it’s over’, holds true. The electoral vote scenarios in the key ‘swing states’ would only apply if there is no litigation, fraud or theft.  However all three are in play – If you are stuffing the ballot box, you first wait to see what the regular vote is, so that you know how many votes you ‘need’ (mathematical anomalies aside) to push your candidate over the top.  Trump, somewhat rashly, gave out the GOP vote calculations at 02.30 on Wednesday, and hey-presto, loads of absentee ballots suddenly arrived at certain polling stations at around 04.00.  That seems to have happened in Wisconsin, where over 100,000 Biden votes appeared seemingly out of nowhere on a flash drive delivered by hand from a Democratic district. That put Biden ahead in Wisconsin – but litigation is in process. Likewise, it appears that a huge “absentee ballot” dump appeared in Michigan that heavily favored Biden.

This is just the beginning of a new and more uncertain phase that could go on for weeks. <

> In sum, if the results we have hold, Joe Biden will win the election and preside over a divided Congress. A chastened and anxious Democratic caucus will continue to hold the House. A triumphant Senate Republican caucus will obviously destroy his major legislative agenda. Biden will assuredly turn to policy by executive action, just as Barack Obama did late in his legislatively stymied administration. When he does, Republicans will do all they can to send those actions to a 6–3 conservative Supreme Court Biden will be unable to pack or meaningfully reform. In defeating Trump, Democrats will have avoided their worst-case scenario. Instead, they will have won the worst possible Biden victory, a political situation that will be a nightmare all its own. <
> There is nothing done by the Trump administration that can be rationally characterized as a radical aberration, some dramatic break, from U.S. tradition. Quite the contrary: none of Trump’s actions and policies are in some new universe of savagery, lawlessness, or radicalism when compared to those who preceded him in power. <

bigger
Joseph Dana @ibnezra - 10:06 UTC · Nov 8, 2020
Biden’s acceptance speech in front of a Chase logo pretty much says everything you need to know about the next four years. #USElectionResults2020

Please use the Open Thread 2020-88 for non-election issues.

Posted by b on November 8, 2020 at 13:06 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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The courts and supreme court dont want to get involved in this ele tion dispute cuz for the eletes it dont matter if trump or biden wins. They are waiting to use there real power when a true populist has a chance and then boom scotus will shut them down

Posted by: Bob | Nov 9 2020 18:05 utc | 201

Circe keeps using the b—— word that denotes a female dog. I learned over 50 years ago that the only time that word could be used was to describe a canine. Using it to denigrate a human was misogynist and wrong. Doesn’t matter if the word is used to describe a male person or to describe an enemy. It just plain hurts women and decent people don’t do it.

Half a century ago only leftists were tuned in to that. Past twenty years or so it is pretty universal. Circe keeps doing it. Circe is no leftist, no feminist, likely not even a woman. Why is she here? Perhaps comic relief?


Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 9 2020 18:09 utc | 202

@Down South | Nov 9 2020 18:00 utc | 204
Thank you. Yes, it makes it even more interesting. I found the post you are referring to
https://twitter.com/Peoples_Pundit/status/1325581205673287682

People who genuinely seek out the truth should be supported. As you say, this is no crank.

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 9 2020 18:12 utc | 203

@198 Anne

My preference shmerferance...!

Your reply is predictable and does not answer or meet the challenge I put to your integrity in the least!

If, if...IF is not the REALITY of this moment. Don't give me your IF-lala. Ifs don't solve the problem of the immediate threat to democracy via the fascist tools Trump has already implemented.

You don't have to be for Biden to smash Trump's attempted coup on democracy. And don't condescend to people. I know what Janus means...I'm not as intellectually deprived as you would hope and you're not the smartest in the room.

I'm waiting...cause I know what your best can do, and you haven't pointed that cannon at Trump's wrecking ball yet.

I don't have to 'splain nuthing regarding B and H and their agenda which I have zero illusions about. I was never for them. I'm for the truth! That other battle; I'll fight when the time comes.

I'm waiting for YOU to defend the bedrock of Progressive principles, democracy, against Trump's fascist takeover through his mind-altering cult propaganda, the stacked judiciary, ideological arming of the police state and now assault on democracy.

I want a full Trump takedown for what he's done, and cough it up with the same energy, passion and vitriol you used against me!

Still waiting...

Posted by: Circe | Nov 9 2020 18:12 utc | 204

Lindsey Graham discusses investigations into election fraud.

https://youtu.be/V3geBt5nPL0

Posted by: Down South | Nov 9 2020 18:12 utc | 205

Correction: I was never for them. I'm for the truth and ridding the Presidency of Trump...period!

Posted by: Circe | Nov 9 2020 18:19 utc | 206

vk @193

Oh, this is weak stuff!

"Marx never classified the dictatorship of the proletariat as the bureaucratic state.

The dictatorship of the proletariat refers to political control by the workers. Marx advocated the state to bring about "socialism" (always something in the future and hence utopian) where as Bukunin advocated for the replacement of the state by federations of self-governing workplaces and communes (very similar to "Soviets" in the period of the Russian Revolution").

"This is a 20th Century projection that takes the USSR as fait accompli."

Bakunin predicted that Marxist regimes would be one-party dictatorships over the proletariat, so it's more than a "20th Century projection", and whether or not the USSR would have progressed is moot because it did reach a self-inflicted "fait accompli"

"Marx is not the utopian school."

Marx is clearly utopian because he believes in a future society that will be much better than the one he lived in.

"You're confusing yourself with the utopian socialists, who came before Marx in France (Proudhon et al)."

No, this is fake distinction and tries to claim Marx as the only "socialism". Marx brought new insights into economics (but he is still standing on the shoulders of those [economists, socialsist and anarchists] that came before) and he may have had disagreements with Bukunin, Proudhon, and others about method, but, where they wanted to end up (the utopian future) was essentially the same.

"Marx's version of socialism is called "scientific socialism" precisely not to mix with the utopian variant of the beginning of the 19th Century."

Marx version of socialism is utopian. "Scientific Socialism" is not possible because the scientific method cannot be reliably applied; unfortunately, it still comes down to what you believe. Marx contributed something important and original to socialist thought in economic thinking, but not much original in terms of what "socialism" actually is, or anything particularly insightful about how to arrive at "socialism".

Posted by: ADKC | Nov 9 2020 18:24 utc | 207

Jackrabbit @ 189

If 107,000 votes is 0.0005% of the total, how many voters are there?

The answer is north of twenty billion.

You can’t do math. At all. Any who were competent at elementary school math would see the issue instantly.

Those with less than zero mathematical ability should not make arguments based on numbers. Best just leave that alone.

Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 9 2020 18:27 utc | 208

President Trump fires Defense Secretary Mark Esper

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 9 2020 18:34 utc | 209

oldhippie @Nov 9 18:27 #213

D'oh! You're right. My bad! It's 0.54%

Total votes in those states: 19,672,491.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 9 2020 18:37 utc | 210

@ Posted by: ADKC | Nov 9 2020 18:24 utc | 212

Marx version of socialism is utopian. "Scientific Socialism" is not possible because the scientific method cannot be reliably applied;

Do you have a scientific demonstration for that?

Posted by: vk | Nov 9 2020 18:43 utc | 211

@Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 9 2020 18:34 utc | 214

Could this fulminant firing ( Effect immediately!!) has anythingv to do with the downing of the Russian helycopter? ( again another error, like that of Erdogan...when Turkish troops are commanding there..the hekycopter was in Armenian territory, a way to implicate Russia under SCTO agreements...)

I fear Trump is going to make gala of the elephant in the China shop he definitely is before abandoning the WH..Also this points at that he is thinking of entrenching himself there...

Watching yesterday an interview with the author of a book on Trump´s making, linked at an article by Martin Jay in Strategic Culture site, the author, after a thorough reserach, asures Trump always seeks cruel revenge when he felt offended, and as a sample pointed at how Trump humiliated his children´s mother through months in the gossip media...

Eveything points out at that he is going to pulverize the porcelaine...

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Nov 9 2020 18:44 utc | 212

Interesting read.

It appears Dems shot themselves in the foot bc making everyone do mail-in ballots actually makes it easier to catch mail-in ballot fraud. Bc all of the ballots go through the postal system, they get shuffled like a deck of cards, so we expect reported ballot return to be extremely UNIFORM in terms of D vs R ratio, but to drift slightly towards R over time bc some of those ballots travel farther. This pattern proves fraud and is a verifiable timestamp of when each fraudulent action occurred.

It defies logic

Posted by: Down South | Nov 9 2020 18:45 utc | 213

About the European vassal leaders now meddling in the US elections (but no Russians!)
Fools Rush In: Europeans Extend Premature Congratulations to Joe Biden

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 9 2020 18:53 utc | 214

@Posted by: Down South | Nov 9 2020 18:45 utc | 218

Yeah..but why bother with mail in ballots only when Trump loses?

If you were so worried with this election system ( and its possibilities for fraud...)why have not you voted a platfrom which included a reform of this system

Do not tell me, becuase you were thinking in taking advantage of it anytime...

The same with the possibility of hacking machine counting votes, is this the first time this is possible?
How we know any of the US elections have not been rigged?
One would think the "deep state" was always pendant to turn the account to their wished result, thus...when the illegitimacy of US presidents started? I bet you whatever you want that it does not started with Trump...

The truth is that all of us swallowed that what the US was doing all the time without stop abroad, they would never do it inside the US..We gave for sure they had any respect for the citizenry and their system...another myth...

How we know all this unveiling of the possibilities of election fraud is not looked for by the elites to add to push masses to destroy the statehood, as was the primary goal of Bannon and the people behind him?

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Nov 9 2020 18:55 utc | 215

@Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 9 2020 18:53 utc | 219

Well, not only in Europe, unless you consider Israel and European country, Netanyahu, after thanking Trump for his service, did the same...What would he know?

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Nov 9 2020 18:58 utc | 216

H.Schmatz @ 220

Eh?

Trump has been warning for months that mail-in ballots would lead to potential fraud. The MSM and the Democrats widely ridiculed him for his position.

President Donald Trump’s central argument against mail-in voting and his claim it will lead to widespread voter fraud has now been struck down in every state where it’s been challenged, as a federal judge on Thursday dismissed the Trump campaign’s lawsuit against New Jersey sending mailed ballots to all registered voters as being based on “highly speculative fear.”

Trump’s Mail-In Voter Fraud Claims Have No Merit, Courts Rule

Posted by: Down South | Nov 9 2020 19:06 utc | 217

@Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 9 2020 18:34 utc | 214

Do you find significant that he has appointed Director of Counterterrorism Center as SoD?

If he would want to appear some presidentiable, at least in his last weeks before abandoning office, Trump should choose not going like a hooligan and instead offer us in a silver plate the "beheading" of IS...
That way he not only would sow the field for a possible return, but also would congraciate himslef with Europe, and Russia!, and even could be nominated for the next Peace Nobel Prize ( like Obama, what opportunity!)

The paths to revenge are quite inscrutable, apart from tortuose...one does not have to be always such destructive, but can be constructive...for a better world, and by passing adjust some pendant accounts...

I bet this idea will reach Oval Office in zero coma...

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Nov 9 2020 19:07 utc | 218

@H.Schmatz | Nov 9 2020 18:58 utc | 221

Netanyahu, after thanking Trump for his service, did the same...What would he know?

Netanyahu knows this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo-UXZ-1ups

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 9 2020 19:08 utc | 219

vk @203

"Science"

No, for something to claim to be "scientific" then it must be amenable to the "scientific method" and that means experiments with reliable, consistent and repeatable outcomes - and that is just not possible.

This labouring on "religion" is all because I said that:

"Everyone these days sees the problem of "science" becoming a new "religion"."

If you wish to unquestioningly accept what a "scientist" says just because s/he is a "scientist" (and I don't see what else this could possible mean to you) then you are going to have to accept that the "scientist" is acting as a kind of "surrogate-priest" for you and that you, essentially, have fallen for a new religion.

Quite why a "communist" who hates capitalists would accept the edicts of "scientists" funded by capitalist interests and who stand to personally gain from patents, increase in share values, and other financial interests is beyond me!

----

"Profit"

"Profit" is the means, the end is "accumulation".

You are looking back 2 or 3 centuries and imaging what happens when an entrepeneur mass produces and sells products for the first time. What you don't want to consider is the implication that of an elite group reaching maximum "accumulation" and not going to obliging you by collapsing under the "inherent contradictions of capitalism".

What does it mean when 99.9% of the world's wealth is owned by 0.01% of the world's population? You beleive a "socialist utopia" (you call it "scientific Socialism", it matters not, it amounts to the same thing) is imminient because thats what Marx said. I'm saying that the elite studied Marx and are subverting his ideas to create a "corporatist nightmare".

Posted by: ADKC | Nov 9 2020 19:11 utc | 220

a few comments on my part....

a part of me is disappointed in others here... no one is perfect.. i accept that.. while i don't like people demeaning others for holding different viewpoints.. i think it is more a reflection them then it is on those they are targeting...

both @ k_c_ and @ richard steven hack seem like intelligent people, excluding hacks tendency to call others morons or whatever... i can live with these people and feel they add to the conversation for the most part... sometimes i can't read it all and i do skip posts where a person is posting too much.. but that is just me...

but in regards the 2 way conversation between @anne and @circe.... i really admire anne's commentary and am surprised at what looks like a really infantile response on the part of circe..all i can say is if this is what qualifies for meaningful dialogue on the part of 2 individuals at moa, i know whose posts i will skip and which ones i will stop to read...

@ mark2.... i am really disappointed in you.. if you don't have anything positive to say - and all you want to do is demean moa, why do you continue here?? please contribute something positive or don't bother posting... you are a part of the problem you would like to not see here... i am surprised you can't see this..

if this thread is any sign of how 2 opposing viewpoints can harmoniously live together, it ain't looking good for the usa at this point... there doesn't seem to be any kindness or thoughtfulness in some of the commentary here.. i pray people can find a way to mend fences and build bridges as opposed to some of what i see in this particular thread.. for those who aren't interested in dialogue, but in only clobbering others over the head with your hostile views, please go somewhere else...

Posted by: james | Nov 9 2020 19:19 utc | 222

a reflection 'on' them then it is on others... forgot to use the preview option.. oh well..

Posted by: james | Nov 9 2020 19:21 utc | 223

Pepe’s new article on The Saker

So the Deep State is reasoning that with Biden – or, sooner rather than later, Supreme shakti and Commander-in-Chief Maa Durga Kamala – the path gets smoother towards the Davos Great Reset. After all, to reset the chess pieces, first the chessboard must be knocked over. This will be one step beyond Dark Winter – which not accidentally was evoked by teleprompter-reading Biden himself on the final presidential debate. The script gets ominously closer to the Rockefelller Foundation’s 2010 Lock Step.

First Comes A Rolling Civil War

Posted by: Down South | Nov 9 2020 19:29 utc | 224

@226 adkc

I believe vk is hinting at the Heglian concept of Science of Logic.

If he is speaking merely of the physical sciences of demonstratable statistical data, then he us conflating the two, the Science of Logic and Economic Sciences and Theory. Which is about par for the course when it comes to Marxists.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Nov 9 2020 19:31 utc | 225

Mark2 @Nov9 19:16 #228

where is all the celebration on MOA ?

- moa is primarily an international affairs blog. Few here expect that Biden will be much different than Trump in the international sphere.

- Trump is contesting the election. Biden won't actually be the winner until a majority of elector's vote for him or Trump concedes.

- Partisans on both sides, and the associated "Democracy Works!" messaging are annoying to those of us that know that USA is a plutocracy with a money-driven electoral system. This "shabby little blog" doesn't need any of you.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 9 2020 19:39 utc | 226

This is an interesting thread on twitter. These graphs show the proportion Republican/Democrat votes as counting progresses. You would expect these graphs to converge. Instead, they have discontinuities.

You really, really want to go over the data with a fine toothcomb. But if the data is valid you can pinpoint the exact moment someone dumped "cooked" ballots in the system.

https://twitter.com/APhilosophae/status/1325593635996512257

Posted by: passerby | Nov 9 2020 19:40 utc | 227

@Down South | Nov 9 2020 19:29 utc | 231

Pepe’s new article on The Saker

"the Deplorables become The Ungovernables". That sounds like a possible scenario if Trump loses. I don't think the cheaters have thought this through.

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 9 2020 19:45 utc | 228

passerby, diverging vote counts is not surprising.

Trump told his hoards not to trust mail-in voting and to come out on election day, a vast majority of Democrats chose to vote by mail, and then the mail-in ballots were counted last.

Posted by: Christian J. Chuba | Nov 9 2020 19:45 utc | 229

Escobar has a follow-up essay which will eventually escape from behind its paywall and found at the usual places:

"The massive psyop is ongoing. Everyone familiar with the Transition Integrity Project knew how this would imperatively play out. I chose to frame it as a think tank gaming exercise in my Banana Follies column. This is a live exercise. Yet no one knows exactly how it will end."

Yet, this we do know:

"The West, especially the American Rome, is on the edge of a double precipice: the worst economic depression ever, coupled with imminent, myriad, uncontrollable explosions of social rage."

Biden has already said to Trump Nation, Lets be friends, but something tangible, not mere words, will be required to mollify those masses. It would be correct to say the Empire of Chaos has Chaosed itself, but will it be able to emerge from the trap it set for itself before the Walkers topple in and seal its fate.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 9 2020 19:50 utc | 230

@Christian J. Chuba | Nov 9 2020 19:45 utc | 236

passerby, diverging vote counts is not surprising

It is probably not surprising to those who did this, but from a statistical point of view it does not happen. The Wisconsin graph is one for the history books
https://twitter.com/APhilosophae/status/1325597582740123648/photo/1

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 9 2020 19:51 utc | 231

Interesting 18 min YT discussion by Christoforou and Mercouris (who is a lawyer) on Trump's chances overcoming the election fraud with the courts etc., going forward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk3fazIZoOw&t=634s

* Mercouris opines that although Trump seems to have a very strong legal case especially in PA, he is concerned that the some of the six repug SCotUS judges are wobbly and maybe not have courage to withstand the Biden-deep state media Wall of Sound. He discounts Roberts outright, wonders if Cavanaugh can be counted on to vote in Trump's favor.

*Both Alex C. and Mercouris pile on AG Barr's lack of action as the country's top prosecutor, who has yet to prosecute anyone yet from Russiagate, the 2018 election fraud or make any convictions to show that fraudsters will be punished for these types of crimes, as a big contributing factor in the current state of affairs with rampant cheating happening.

Posted by: gm | Nov 9 2020 20:04 utc | 232

science isn't a "religion". the people that claim this are religiously opposed to science because it questions one or more of their beliefs. you get the evolution is a hoax people, the people that have fallen for corporate propaganda on climate change, and the free market fanatics all claiming scientific expertise while attacking scientists of all different ideological stripes and beliefs. none of these people have a f/n clue.

on the election, it strikes me as odd that people think that a polarizing figure like trump wouldn't evoke strong personal reactions from voters, not least because of his massive failure to deal as effectively with the virus as the rest of the world. thus split tickets. i would think b, who has had his own struggles with the "covid" is a hoax crowd, would understand that. trump shot his own presidency in the foot with his position on the virus, not that i will miss him or welcome biden; both of them are going to continue to pursue similar economic policies, with biden being even more of a warmonger than trump. crime bill joe and teargas donnie will continue to support the jackbooted government thugs known as cops. biden's record of provoking and isolating and undermining russia is particularly bad because the democrats don't seem to understand that a war with russia is not won by propaganda on msnbc and the new york times. at least i have a marginally smaller chance of dying from the virus, albeit a marginally larger chance of getting whacked by a cop. the u.s. desperately needs a reset to the political system, which is being strangled by the 2 parties; i don't see how that is going to happen. how do you win a rigged game, playing by the rigged rules? caitlin johnstone keeps talking about a massive change in consciousness, but it isn't clear to me what she means by that, or how it is supposed to come about.

electiongate is the new russiagate, and not surprising that trump supporters react like clinton supporters to losing.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 9 2020 20:08 utc | 233

I wholeheartedly agree with James’ post at 229.

To me, what detracts most from this site is those that can’t discuss things respectfully.

Posted by: Featherless | Nov 9 2020 20:12 utc | 234

james @229

First, my thanks for your comment... and what I think you intended.

In all honesty I was amazed at the vituperativeness by the C and then Mark2... And the underlying assumption - presumption - on both C's and Mark2's part that if you are not with the Blues you must be with the Reds; that you cannot be against, loathe both; that you cannot refuse to vote for either, and if you do vote for a 3rd party or write someone in you're bad.

I did respond perhaps a little too acidly, but to be nastily pigeonholed by those who refuse to accept any political position other than their own is unpleasant.

Posted by: Anne | Nov 9 2020 20:30 utc | 235

No, for something to claim to be "scientific" then it must be amenable to the "scientific method" and that means experiments with reliable, consistent and repeatable outcomes - and that is just not possible.

Posted by: ADKC | Nov 9 2020 19:11 utc | 226

Reality keeps throwing at you totally valid "controlled" experiments, while those will insist they are unable to take home conclusions from their observations. The problem with this view is the wrong assumption that only experiments "controlled" by man are valid towards the scientific method. It does require an extra step from the scientist, its theory will have to encompass a sufficient description of the conditions of the experiment to be generalisable into equivalent settings, but testing is not restricted to observation of a set conditions devised by the scientist, it must include those set by reality itself. The assumption you carry limits your endeavour.

Posted by: Vasco da Gama | Nov 9 2020 20:36 utc | 236

Hi b,
I'm just wondering if its possible to change the comment template to put the poster's name at the top instead of the bottom.

That would make it easier to skip the comments of those who have shown themselves to be unhelpful to the discussion, insulting, and (in the reader's opinion) not worth reading.

Its beneficial to read other opinions, especially a different take on the issue, or a new fact to consider. But its negative and time-wasting to read through invective that does nothing more than re-confirm what that poster thinks once again, or worse consists of not more than insults.

I don't want to stop anyone talking - but if its ok I'd like to stop listening to certain loud angry voices that don't bring anything new to think about, and it would easier to do that with the poster name at the top.
What do you think?

Posted by: Deltaeus | Nov 9 2020 20:37 utc | 237

Most of Trump's election fraud claims are baloney

But he will keep it up - even the most outrageous claims - in the hopes of intimidating judges and officials.

It's also possible that Trump supporters did some ballot 'fixing' for Biden just so they could later show "vote fraud to elect Biden".

Sadly, it may work. And Biden is inadvertently playing into it with his premature declaration of victory. That just sharpens the partisan divide.

As far as the prospect for war, IMO a come-from-behind victory for a tenacious Trump is worse than a weak victory by Biden. Democratic Presidents like Clinton and Obama engage in wars that are small or covert but a major, publicly supported war is the domain of Republicans (e.g. the first and second Iraq War).

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 9 2020 20:40 utc | 238

245 Jackrabbit -

So the 45 day intense bombing of Serbia (initiated by Clinton: William Blum is a good read regarding that barbarity) and the terror bombing of Libya (initiated by Obama doubtless with support from Biden and definitely so from HRC) were "small," "covert" wars? I doubt that the Serbians or the Libyans thought so...the ones on the receiving end of totally gratuitous slaughter and destruction.

Posted by: Anne | Nov 9 2020 20:46 utc | 239

If I wanted to sow chaos and division in America, I'd make it appear that Bidet won. Then find massive fraud and flip it to Trump. Then, sit back and watch the peaceful protesters Burn, Loot and Murder, laughing all the way. I wouldn't be surprised by anything that happens.

Posted by: Shadow | Nov 9 2020 20:46 utc | 240

If I wanted to sow chaos and division in America, ... Posted by: Shadow | Nov 9 2020 20:46 utc | 247

I would start from a catalogue of wishes and the ponder the cardinal question: can we proclaim "Mission Accomplished" already?

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Nov 9 2020 20:53 utc | 241

BTW. that at the same time election results are being contested in the US, the same is happening in Georgia ( Caucasus )...

https://twitter.com/descifraguerra/status/1325525763127472128

and Guinea Conakry...

https://twitter.com/descifraguerra/status/1325562352968884227

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Nov 9 2020 21:00 utc | 242

Shadow @247

If the election is flipped back to Trump then I will have to apologize to the bunny for doubting his assertions regarding the profound multidimensional cleverness of the establishment/deep state. I don't think I will have to make that apology, though. The establishment will be doing whatever is necessary to make certain that Trump is out, even "finding" truckloads more ballots for Biden/Harris if that is what it takes.

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 9 2020 21:01 utc | 243

"Interesting" video of live TV moving exactly 19,958 votes in Pennsylvania from one minute to the next. Trump loses 19,958 votes - Biden wins 19,958 votes. Good work Biden!


HAMMER SCORECARD caught on camera in PA! 19,958 votes get taken from at Trump at 10:22 pm and given to Biden at 10:23 pm.

10:22 pm
Trump: 1,690,589
Biden: 1,252,537

10:23 pm
Trump: 1,670,631
Biden: 1,272,495


https://twitter.com/UncleSamsNation/status/1325627047331426305

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 9 2020 21:12 utc | 244

Anne @Nov9 20:46 #246

So the 45 day intense bombing of Serbia ... and the terror bombing of Libya were "small," "covert" wars?

To the American public, yes.

Most Americans could not find Serbia on a map and even while USA/NATO was engaged there, few cared. How many American soldiers died?

And the Clinton Administration's "economic shock therapy", which caused death and misery for millions of Russians, was mostly ignored by a public that was more concerned about the next episode of "Seinfeld" or "Friends".

Likewise, Obama's illegal bombing of Libya went largely unnoticed by an uncaring public - as was Obama's proxy war in Syria, his droning of weddings and his execution of a 17-year old American.

Even today, Americans are happy to accept USA propaganda about these events. Few make any attempt to learn the truth. Americans happily go about their day KNOWING that they are exceptional and live in the most democratic and prosperous country on earth - a country that (they believe) is rightfully admired, envied and feared by other people of other countries. Yet all of that is a lie or half-truth.

The indifference of the American public is something that has been discussed here many times.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 9 2020 21:23 utc | 245

vk @216

""Scientific Socialism" is not possible because the scientific method cannot be reliably applied" - Do you have a scientific demonstration for that?"

To test a hypothesis you have to conduct experiments. There are no satisfactory experiments which prove the existence of the law of supply and demand, which fails because the theory demands complete knowledge (and complete knowledge does not exist in the real world) and people do not act rationally, you cannot control and isolate all the variables, etc. So even something as basic and doctrine in economics as "The Law of Supply and Demand" remains an unproven, unprovable theory. Marxist theory will be far more complex and difficult to test and any results will be far more "interpretable". At best, all you can hope for is "indications".

NemeisCalling@232 suggests that you may be referring to the "physical sciences of demonstratable statistical data".

I accept that you can research and model data but this is prone to a whole other set of problems.

The huge problems that exist in data collection and interpretation of existing world ecomonies are immense and I don't see how similar data can be satisfactorily used to prove or disprove Marxist economic theories. And this ignores the problem that those who control the "data", control what is collected and what is disclosed.

NemeisCalling also suggests that you may be referring to the "Heglian concept of Science of Logic" which I will simplify to just appying logic.

Well the problem is that "logic" amounts to a thought experiment that puts you back in the realm of ideas and belief. If such problems were amenable to the application of logic then everything would be sorted out because we would all agree on what was "logical"; this clearly rarely happens.

---

Anyway, I would throw your enquiry back at you: can you provide any evidence of scientific tests or experiments that unquestionable prove any of Marx's theories, which have been and are repeatable and which have been peer reviewed?

Posted by: adkc | Nov 9 2020 21:25 utc | 246

Shower of sanctions on everybody in the last hours of Trump´s administration:

Syria:

US Slaps Sanctions on Syria’s National Defence Forces, Ministry of Petroleum and Mineral Resources

Iran:

https://twitter.com/descifraguerra/status/1325759935758659585

Who´s next?

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Nov 9 2020 21:25 utc | 247

and right on cue trump slaps sanctions on syria (man of peace! though i admit he deserves that more than obama) and its oil industry. once again those poor helpless fossil fuel corporations show how powerless they are to influence u.s. policy. if only they weren't victimized by those superpowerful scientists. i can hardly wait for the next effort to bring peace to venezuela. biden's going to do the same thing, so i don't understand trump's hurry.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 9 2020 21:33 utc | 248

@210 Down South

And we're supposed to believe and seriously consider the regurgitations of that Neocon tool, Lindsey Graham? Puh lease!🙄

@229 james

Like I ever gave an iota of importance to the opinion of MOA's weathervane...spinning whichever way the wind blows. Besides, I'm hearing loud crickets from Anne on my question regarding fighting Trump's already-implemented fascism and the challenge put to her integrity which means she's just another hot air-spouting propagandist I exposed.

@241 Featherless

So if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. Political argument is not for thin-skinned, faint of heart yellow-bellies.

@244 Deltaeus

Yeah, everything must change cause you're too lazy to scroll to the end when you don't agree with what you're reading...and since when is your contribution way more meaningful and significant?

I must admit, I am mince no words, pull no punches unapologetic! Remind you of someone? I'm just as loud, tough and impertinent as the Trumpbaby you're protecting, only I have way better diction, use fewer !!!'s and caps and I'm younger and way more of a smart ass than him. That's what it takes to defeat Trump bullshit: FIRE.

So then, given such similarities, my expression should be familiar and comforting, no?

Next time, just RESIST reading on...and then you won't be so hot and bothered.

Posted by: Circe | Nov 9 2020 21:34 utc | 249

Anne @Nov9 20:46 #246

GWBush's Iraq War caused public outrage but only after the public became aware that 1) the Bush Administration had lied USA into war; 2) thousands of US soldiers had been killed; 3) USA was accused of war crimes; and 4) USA had conducted illegal 'rendition and torture' on a worldwide basis.

It's only that kind of failure and disgrace that will draw public rebuke.

Not surprisingly (for those paying attention), GWBush's Iraq War has been memory-holed and GWBush himself has been rehabilitated.

Welcome to the rabbit hole.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 9 2020 21:37 utc | 250

Watch this 19,958 Pennsylvania vote flip from Trump to Biden happen right before your eyes on CNN election night: Starts out with Trump 1,690,589; Biden 1,252,537...then comes the *flip*...to Trump 1,670,631. -19,958 votes, and Biden 1,272,495. +19,958. Miraculous!

Is it real, or is it HAMMER, SCORECARD app, or Dominion Voting Systems?

Posted by: gm | Nov 9 2020 21:56 utc | 251

James @ 229

Perhaps you missed the post this weekend in which RSH threatened to execute a commenter. Two .45 caliber hollow points to the head was his intended means.

He has threatened to kill me as well. He says he has put some work into discovering who I am offline. Which would be quite simple for any who knew one thing about hacking, he does not.

Do a search on Trump Accountability Project. Things are becoming quite a bit less than civil.

Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 9 2020 21:58 utc | 252

@ Posted by: adkc | Nov 9 2020 21:25 utc | 253

Marxism proves - beyond all reasonable doubt and on a scientific level - that capitalism will eventually fall (even without any natural catastrophes, that is, even considering the ideal natural conditions). This was demonstrated in Marx's magnum opus Das Kapital (the three books: don't read just one).

Marx (and the Marxists) also has a theory of History (class struggle), which suggests (and this is a hypothesis) that communism is possible in the historical sense. That means there is at least one scenario in human history where communism will happen. How exactly will this hypothetical communism work? We don't know. The only thing Marx's theory states is that, if communism does happen, it will not be directly born from capitalism: an interregnum will necessarily have to happen, called socialism. We also don't know exactly how this socialism will work; we just know that it will be a period of transition between capitalism and communism, i.e. it would be a hybrid system tending towards communism.

We do know hybrid systems did exist in history, e.g. Britain's feudalism-capitalism system of the 1300s-1700s (a "monetarized-exporter feudalism") or the Iberian concessions system of the 1500s-1600s, so it is not absurd to foresee that, capitalism falling and human civilization not ending, we will observe a transition system instead of the real deal outright. We also know that History is not linear: the Venetian Republic was Europe's first capitalism entity, but was crushed by a feudal counter-revolution; capitalism then arose in Britain some centuries later. The same way, we can easily consider the USSR as simply the first attempt, doomed from the start, but important as the first spark. Either way, this model certainly is not idealist: it is a materialist model, as it implies in a painful and long period of transition.

Communism is just a theoretical model for the true end of history (classless society). If History is the saga of class struggle, then it will end once class based societies cease to exist. Marx made some extrapolations over what communism necessarily would have to have, but he never wrote any theory on communism per se (i.e. as a socioeconomic system). When the USSR was born, nobody there knew exactly what to do except in very generalized ideas: almost every aspect of what we consider today as quintessentially Soviet (single party system, five-year plan, planned economy, democratic centralism) was actually an improvisation made out of desperation for survival than any kind of Marxist instruction booklet.

Posted by: vk | Nov 9 2020 22:00 utc | 253

"There is nothing done by the Trump administration that can be rationally characterized as a radical aberration, some dramatic break, from U.S. tradition. Quite the contrary: none of Trump’s actions and policies are in some new universe of savagery, lawlessness, or radicalism when compared to those who preceded him in power."

He just made no attempts to clothe it in diplomatic language or use accepted terminology.

Which is why he had and still has so many admirers. People want their brutality naked and up-front so they can take open delight in it.

Posted by: Malchik Ralf | Nov 9 2020 22:14 utc | 254

Luke Rudkowski @Lukewearechange

Very true

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EmT_WhhW8AAOzj1.jpg

https://twitter.com/Lukewearechange/status/1325464962848972807

Posted by: Mao | Nov 9 2020 22:27 utc | 255

This Old Guy With Dementia Has Some Interesting Plans For You!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cObGo6CXs7M

Posted by: Mao | Nov 9 2020 22:30 utc | 256

@Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 9 2020 21:12 utc | 251

Sorry...I had not refreshed the page before I posted the exact same thing as you already just had shared.

Posted by: gm | Nov 9 2020 22:39 utc | 257

Mao, you see your damn links going off the page and the thread type shrinking??? Use the html tags, genius. 🙄

Posted by: Circe | Nov 9 2020 22:56 utc | 258

Circe | 148

"If Democrats rigged the Election, why is it that they didn't rig the House and Senate seats they lost in their favour that appear on the same ballot, in order to prevent Republicans from blocking all their legislation?"

Because this whole operation was prepared well before they could know what down-ticket names would definitely end up on the ballot, that's why.

Posted by: Scotch Bingeington | Nov 9 2020 23:01 utc | 259

I wonder if the 'circe' thing may have a problem with alcohol, circe posts, never pleasant, tend to get worse and worse as the evening (in amerika) wears on. Any pretence of rational explanation disappears in a tirade of personal abuse as his/her posts continue. There is absolutely no point in trying to debate an issue with the circe creature as anything pertinent another poster may make is inevitably ignored in favour of spiteful name calling.
I for one am thoroughly sick of it as I am sick of any of the many other posters who imagine that 'blogging' is about repeating the same usually asinine points of view over and over again.
Maybe the blog needs to come up with some sort of rationing system whereby we are all restricted to one or two posts over a 24 hour period. Yes that would be a bastard for the times when there is real dialogue between posters but this current model of people endlessly repeating the same stuff over and over again, arguing for the sake of getting the last word, all the while ignoring anything inconvenient another post has said has become plain stupid. Few say anything that hasn't already been said and wading through the dross in the hope of stumbling across something worth considering is mostly fruitless.

On the subject of orangeutan winning in the courts, I'm afraid I just don't see it. As I have previously stated instances of any "highest court in the land" making a determination that most, especially the media, would consider outrageous, are extremely rare and generally only happen if the 'justices' are going to cop an extremely large backhander.

The types who provide judges with 'extremely large backhanders' are unlikely to see any benefit from swapping horses in mid-stream.
But there are a large number of amerikans who wish to see orangutan vindicated, even if that doesn't include the corporate media.

My guess is that if all these cases do make it to the supreme court, trump will be gifted about 6 electoral college votes and the dopey joe & co will hold on to at least 270. Or even better for the grubby self serving types who jag these sinecures for life on the supreme court, only one case say Nevada with 6 electoral college votes, will make it to 'scotus' the grubs will find in favour of orangeutan making them look good to the base but changing nothing.

The result will be issued in terms that include one or two previously unheard of pieces of legal jargon so that ninnies can lose themselves in arcane nonsense and forget the result.

That way, trumpists will let the supremes off the hook reserving their vitriol for lower courts who throw their beloved leader's cases out before they got to that 'highest court in the land'.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Nov 9 2020 23:48 utc | 260

vk @260

"Das Kapital" is a theoritcal work on economics and I am not disputing any of the theories in the book, but these theories are not proven fact.

As I recall, in Capital, Marx just says that a historical dialetical process means that a declining rate of profit will bring about a transformation (note: not a "collapse") of capitalism into a new form of ecnomony. But, on how this will actually happen and what the new form will be, Marx says very little.

While Marx does address accumulation, he seemed to envision this happening only in the context of the expansion of capital and failed to consider the accumulation of capital into fewer and fewer hands. Marx seemed to believe that competition (capitalists competing agaiinst eachother), ever increasing progess and investment, and the declining rate of profit would bring about the end of capitalism. Marx had little to say about the tendency to monopoly and oligarchic elites who own everything, who reduce investment, limit supply, increase prices, who control/rig the market (it is likely that he could not envisage this process) and how this might affect his theories.

Putting Marx above all others (whom you dismiss as "Utopian socialists") you don't face up to the implications of Marx having little to say about what a communist society would really look like.

Consequently, it is not a foregone conclusion that capitalism will collapse and be replaced by a communist society; it is only a forgone conclusion (according to Marx) that capitalism will morph into a new form of economic organisation - who's to say that this "new form" won't amount to a greater exploitation of humanity.

Posted by: ADKC | Nov 9 2020 23:55 utc | 261

@123. I wonder if you are aware of how fascist your statement was? I guess expecting more from someone who openly and often supports the new brownshirts aka antifa is just silly.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Nov 9 2020 23:59 utc | 262

The debacle of this election shows that it is time to return to paper ballots.

No computers.

No voting machines

Paper Ballots.

INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Nov 10 2020 0:09 utc | 263

oh and @ 197 the moniker is Anne not Annie you ignorant condescending stupid fascist fuck

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Nov 10 2020 0:11 utc | 264

I won't call the victory of the republican spots a "victory".

It just cements that this is the Deep State (both dems and pubs) triumphing against Trump.

But what's done is done, Trump should blame himself for not doing shit in 4 years to counter such an obvious strategy.

Posted by: Smith | Nov 10 2020 0:34 utc | 265

Pretty comprehensive unpacking of events of first 72 hours of the attempted US color revolution begun on Nov 3.

https://www.unz.com/article/of-color-revolutions-foreign-and-domestic-the-first-72-hours/

Posted by: gm | Nov 10 2020 0:39 utc | 266

Update from Canada:

Foreign Minister Champagne says in an interview that Canada will respond to a potential Biden "Buy America" policy with a "Buy North America" approach

https://twitter.com/ctvqp/status/1325899095987417090

Trudeau talks with Biden (ritual phone call)

https://twitter.com/JustinTrudeau/status/1325865589039132685

Trudeau talks with Boris Johnson (not a ritual?)

... "They agreed on the strength of transatlantic relations, including through cooperation in NATO. The two leaders also discussed collaboration in the Commonwealth."

"The prime ministers also discussed Canada-UK relations and looked forward to strengthening trade ties and other areas of cooperation between the two countries."

https://twitter.com/CanadianPM/status/1325946480000192512

Did you know that Kamala Harris might have Irish roots?

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/politics/kamala-harris-irish-roots

Posted by: Quasi Retired anonym | Nov 10 2020 0:41 utc | 267

re Quasi Retired anonym #274

It has been interesting to watch the self serving garbage which other 'western' politicians & their media have been pushing out since it has been decided that dopey joe & co won.
In Oz most of the chatter has been about global warming, that amerika will return to the 'paris accord' and how that will leave the oz guvmint who followed orangeutan out of that deal, more than somewhat exposed.
Do these australian journos not know anything about biden? If he goes back to that paris deal a deal made to satisfy global corporatism, he will do it in a way that leaves him onside with owners, including the owners of the mining corporations who decide australia's policies. If they do indeed believe than morrison's ludicrous 'pivot to gas' strategy is the best way of maximising their profits, biden will do nothing to undermine that strategy.

Meanwhile the neolib englander media believe/want biden to screw up brexit by refusing a trade deal with england unless england's latest attempt to break international law by ignoring aspects of the irish peace process is reversed. Same goes there as much as dopey joe may like to play up his claimed irish heritage, I doubt biden will be the least interested in doing anything which could negatively impact on amerika's trade.

Biden's administration will do the usual amerikan thing of having it's cake and eating it by loudly criticising england's stance and in that way keeping euro trade flowing, while actually doing nothing and in that way keeping englander trade flowing. If push really came to shove they'll side with euroland of course because it is a much bigger trading bloc, but the inevitable process of amerika england split will not happen under a tory englander administration.
That will come after a decade or two with changes of government and a lot of much more annoying favouring of the eu over england.

As far as Aotearoa goes, the kiwi media has been fairly reticent about what we can get from dopey joe, the national inferiority complex inspires most to "shut up and wait their turn" although numerous fishwraps and blogs have insisted that the dims close relationship with hollywood means that Kim Dotcom is screwed. The extradition case goes on and on, but ultimately it will likely extradite him. Dotcom seem unconcerned as he's discovered a new wheeze, suing the kiwi government over all the screw-ups and shortcuts that the then tory government instigated as they acquiesced to the fbi/nsa etc in the initial Dotcom arrest & attempted railroad.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Nov 10 2020 1:56 utc | 268

Appreciate the perspective, Debisdead. Just one point to remember about trade and the UK: Canada has a free trade agreement with both the US and the EU (the new NAFTA/CUSMA/USMCA and CETA). That must be considered in any discussion of amerika england (ireland) eu split union, etc.

Posted by: Quasi Retired anonym | Nov 10 2020 2:04 utc | 269

@267 Debsisdead

🙄💤💤💤💤💤💤💤💤💤😴

I took the trouble of returning to Mark2's comment @123, to refresh my memory, and here's my conclusion: you're the one engaging in fascism with your long-winded spiel on the benefits of censoring this blog and then again, you're the one engaging in ad hom, although you're not the only one doing so; labeling Mark2 a fascist (laughable) and writing this about me amongst your previous insults I wonder if the 'circe' thing may have a problem with alcohol...circe creature...blah-blah.

FYI, I'm a teetotaler. I know-I know I wrote I'd have champagne at b's expense, when Trump lost, but that would be two sips tops. Alcohol gives me a migraine. I got loaded once in my life on New Year's Eve, threw up in the bathroom and never touched the stuff again! Ha! I just realized how much I really have in common with douche Trump! Maybe that's how come I got his number straight on. Like Trump, I don't drink, smoke or do drugs. Yes I tried all three...but don't like having my mind altered, body polluted, losing touch with reality or being controlled by any thing or any one. So you're way off the mark completely. I am however a naturally scrappy, unapologetic, ballbusting firebrand and ignorance, hubris and deception will find a formidable enemy with a vindictive edge in me that all 3 deserve.

Posted by: Circe | Nov 10 2020 2:41 utc | 270

Dr.George @ 270

Good point. There was only ever one good reason for moving away from paper ballots. The people who run western societies know that reason. They hate having to be accountable to the people.

Posted by: EoinW | Nov 10 2020 2:43 utc | 271

Posted by: EoinW | Nov 10 2020 2:43 utc | 278

Hello-oh. What do you think mail-in ballots are made of???

Posted by: Circe | Nov 10 2020 2:47 utc | 272

William Gruff @250

I'm not so sure how clever they are. I get the impression that they are so disconnected from the real world that it retards what natural intelligence they may have. I do think they are made up of different factions and often in conflict amongst themselves, which leads to accidents like a President Trump. I stand by my prediction that the Dems will fail to steal the election because they are too incompetent to do anything right. I may be proven wrong or vindicated. The next weeks/months will tell.

I think President Trump deserves to be cut some slack. Given all the forces allied against him has to count for something to anyone against the Deep State. What interests me is why a president who does 90% of what the establishment wants is so vilified that they'd all gang up on him. It's human nature to take the path of least resistance. Backing Biden over Trump was not that path. Of course, who said the establishment consists of real human beings?

I think the one thing they all cannot tolerate is to be embarrassed. That's why they have come down so hard on Snowden and Assange. Even their anti-Putin crusade began right after he gave Snowden sanctuary. The Deep State/Establishment/Davos Crowd are made up of such small minded people they really can't cope with being made to look bad. President Trump, due to his style, embarrasses the entire political class. It's like putting on a production of MacBeth and replacing Orson Welles with Will Rogers.

Posted by: RoinW | Nov 10 2020 3:05 utc | 273

What interests me is why a president who does 90% of what the establishment wants is so vilified that they'd all gang up on him.
________________________________________

The answer to your query is pretty obvious.
90% of trump voters would not support trump if they thought the establishment liked trump.

Posted by: jinn | Nov 10 2020 3:14 utc | 274

I watched what I felt was the DNC machine steal California from Bernie in 2016 and hand it to Hillary. Many were left scratching our heads. No hard evidence but many, including myself, felt it happened.

https://www.democracynow.org/2016/6/10/as_california_admits_2_million_ballots

Bernie did not concede but went to the White House and talked to Obama. After the talk with Obama he conceded. This shit could be working both ways to no good.

Sort of the same stuff we see now. Does the DNC (and the RNC) have the power to control votes, tabulation, and push ballot fakery? Should not these questions be explored and answered? I would argue this stuff happens in most countries all over the world. What we are different?

We saw what happened in Bush v. Gore, Dewey v. Truman, Kennedy v. Nixon and even Trump v. Clinton. CNN has quietly taken some states off the table on their website and reduced Biden's vote to 279. Close elections are not that usual in the country. A little push here and there makes a difference.

Some states may get turned before 11 December 2020.

Posted by: circumpsect | Nov 10 2020 3:23 utc | 275

@ Posted by: Deltaeus | Nov 9 2020 20:37 utc | 244

"I'm just wondering if its possible to change the comment template to put the poster's name at the top instead of the bottom. That would make it easier to skip the comments of those who have shown themselves to be unhelpful to the discussion, insulting, and (in the reader's opinion) not worth reading."

I prefer the way it is done now with the poster name at the bottom.

After reading this blog for perhaps nine months, I can usually identify who is posting after reading a few sentences. Most people posting here are unique in style and content.

Why take this away from us, the ability to recognize one another through one's words alone? not through labeling?

If you are short on time, scroll down before reading.

Posted by: suzan | Nov 10 2020 3:32 utc | 276

@ Jackrabbit | Nov 9 2020 19:39 utc | 233.. it's true what you say - "moa is primarily an international affairs blog." however there are some posters who have taken the art of navel gazing to such a high degree - it's only about 1 topic - usa elections or covid where everyone has to take a side at all times.. thanks.. i share your viewpoint..

@ Featherless | Nov 9 2020 20:12 utc | 241.. thanks.. we need more like you..

@ Anne | Nov 9 2020 20:30 utc | 242.. thanks anne... at this point it isn't worth responding to people who are as thick as bricks and don't believe in being civil..

@ Deltaeus | Nov 9 2020 20:37 utc | 244.. good suggestion! it has been put to b before, but it seems if you stick around long enough, you will be able to figure out who is posting quick enough, so as to skip over, or not, the post...

@ oldhippie | Nov 9 2020 21:58 utc | 259.. i didn't see that, but it is believable... i would prefer not to go back and see.. lets trust richard on his word of leaving moa for good... things are looking up if this is true!

@ Debsisdead | Nov 9 2020 23:48 utc | 267.. i agree with your first few paragraphs.. not sure if that is going to happen though.. some people know how to self regulate and others don't.. we are seeing some fine examples of both here... it is the later ones that need to be put on ignore...


Posted by: james | Nov 10 2020 3:33 utc | 277

@267 Debsisdead

I recall the old MoA thread of not so long ago where you could come late and read the whole thing - usually all in one page - and by comment #30 you were buzzing with information and a rapid pondering, and by the time you got around comment #60 your picture of the issue was greatly enlarged and also greatly concrete, from the comments along the way that had added facts, perspective, and links.

There was a rolling kind of consensus that built itself, where people took an insight from 10 or 20 comments previously and added the material from the intervening comments to make very clear sense in a furthered restatement, often with an additional article link.

Almost no one wasted a comment to go ad hominem on someone.

It feels now like a lost golden age. But it could come again. There is, after all, no "human right" to being allowed to comment at will in a personal blog. But I doubt if the ability exists in b's platform to limit comments.

We would all have to take a deep breath and choose to calm ourselves down. We could play a game of trying to see if we could reach a satisfactory commentary on b's article within 100 comments. And all without cursing another commenter or - mercy! - breaking the page width.

~~

b could even post the occasional Meta discussion, where we discussed the admin aspects of the blog, so as not to take any of the 100 comments devoted to a particular issue.

"You may say I'm a dreamer..."

Posted by: Grieved | Nov 10 2020 4:15 utc | 278

Walter #2

Thank you for that excellent analogy:-

Viewing Biden as a cannula to insert Harris and all that would imply, I ask how such a weak person as Harris might seek to increase consent for her rule.

Perhaps Biden will run the entire first term course and appoint Harris his global roving ambassador. Plus he will appoint some savage as his Sec of State.

Biden will be the homeland caretaker and the mongrels will tour the globe seeking and wreaking carnage. With Biden at home then the first lady can manage him and he will do the minimum necessary re the Fort Detrick flu and perhaps even stage some periodic smoothing of the dying pillow and grand church services for the deceased etc, etc,.

That way Biden shares the small part of the rap for the nightmare unleashed by Trump and his covidiots and Harris is left looking clean and heroic for the 2024 hoax.

The UNZ Review is cutting in its criticism.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 10 2020 4:33 utc | 279

@280 RoinW

That is an excellent comment. We've said all along that Trump was an embarrassment because he portrayed the "quintessential American", but we had not nailed it down to the ruling class as concisely as you just did, as far as I'm aware.

I like your speculations as to the nature of the rich who attempt to rule the poor, and usually manage to keep the lid on things.

Is it embarrassment or is it a fear of exposure, or is it somewhere in the middle, a sense of unease whenever the club seems to be fragmenting from disharmony in public? Maybe the embarrassment is lifelong habit that is alert to alarm bells tinkling faintly, and this is always cause to listen hard in case they ring louder?

If you're engaged in the process of ruling, in a manner that is on the one hand relatively secret but on the other hand also collegial at the top-tier peer level, how do you feel when you hear whistles blown? How much reaction might be over-reaction, when the full light of day could conceivably destroy your dynasty forever? Maybe, in the midst of your comfort and assurance, you would also have a well developed instinct to twitch. And you would look to your peers to gauge their comfort level.

Embarrassment is the precursor to public exposure, I suggest, as a psychological dynamic that would operate on all humans at all social levels. If you grew up into a family and culture of thieves - which is the rich - you could explain embarrassment to yourself in any way you wanted, simply as a taint on your privilege to come and go untroubled. But there would be some in the crime family - people with full closets - who might hear the faint tinkling of alarm bells.

It's a rich field, trying to understand those who would rule us. Many thanks for your contribution.

Posted by: Grieved | Nov 10 2020 4:42 utc | 280

re Grieved 285
Yeah it would be great/better if self censorship came from within as anything else would require some form of moderation - by a human and fair enough, b has no intention of taking on that huge psyche draining task & no one else has the right to as it is b's blog.

MoA has become a victim of its success, too many people come here, too many of whom regard it as their 'free' space - maybe because their attitudes or lack of consideration has had them blacklisted elsewhere. The upshot is what you would expect. When I was a kid one of my classmates held a party taking advantage of the fact his parents were away - hundreds of people turned up most had no idea of who the host was and my friend's home was wrecked. When we tried to stop these low lifes the most common response was "he asked for it, if he didn't want this he shouldn't have had a party".
Pretty much the attitude of many who drop by here.

The last couple of days I've been thinking about how it was that back in the early days here & the whisky bar many of us had the email addresses of many other posters, when we wanted to debate something that was of limited interest to others that was how we would do it.
I cannot remember how we got each others' addys, then like now publishing an email address was an invitation to be scraped & spammed. I think the level of trust was much higher so that if we did put up an addy with a space or some other scraper obstruction, we had no concern that some loser would also grab it to send missives about hollow points into your skull.

We were also much more protective of b and the blog, the types of insults b is subjected to nowadays wouldn't be tolerated back then everyone online at the time would pile in telling the miscreant to stop vomiting on the rug and to piss off if they didn't.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Nov 10 2020 5:14 utc | 281

Richard Steven Hack #142

You say

OK. I'm done here. Don't any of you ever cross my path. I'll kill you.

Where is the staying power RSH?
A warrior NEVER runs away
Especially so in this fight
You can stay a while and laugh with us
Scream with us and watch the USAi idiot ship run aground

Hopefully for a long spell this time.

Biden is like those moron captains of the USAi navy that keep turning into the path of an oncoming giant cargo vessels. You know like those in the sea of japan etc. This could be a good time for the samurai to remain seated on a high hill and watch the circus self destruct - after all that's what the last four years were about.

Remember the USAi has set up adversaries that are leagues ahead of them intellectually and tactically.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 10 2020 5:16 utc | 282

juliania # 201

I'd love to see Michael Hudson's take if anyone has it.

Hi juliania, I used this search term and got heaps of results but was blocked at access.

Give it a try: michael hudson on student debt

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 10 2020 5:22 utc | 283

Anne #192

Decent? It is abundantly crystal that words have lost their meaning...

YES YES to that entire comment. The distortion of values that IS the demonazi hucksters just infuriates. They have now elevated two antisocial, narcissistic warmongers to office when they had every opportunity and even greater means to promote people of high integrity, socially progressive values and a clear path to the demilitarising of the planet.

Now we have these scumbags to chafe our shackles and rub salt into our wounds.
Demonazi Rsoles.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 10 2020 5:40 utc | 284

juliania @201--

Hudson would like to see student debt be written off. Use the search function at his site using the phrase student debt relief for numerous hits.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 10 2020 5:41 utc | 285

Norwegian | Nov 9 2020 17:33 utc | 199

Peoples Pundit:

https://twitter.com/Peoples_Pundit


Twitter is tagging him regularly with "this claim about election fraud is disputed"

Peoples Pundit is legit afaik.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 10 2020 5:49 utc | 286

@293 uncle tungsten

I agree. I have managed to see the YouTube video at the heart of that original tweet - now requiring sign-in by YouTube - although it took a few steps. The Pundit seems legit to me also - and this is the world we live in: critical thinking returns provisional assessments, reliable until they're not. But in that reliability, much ground is covered, much territory gained.

It's Twitter that's not legit.

~~

I was ready days ago to accept that Biden had won, and I did largely accept that. But now I'm seeing that this is far from over, and that there is a body of data to suggest the election result was fraudulent, and more to the point, provably so.

Poignant that all the passion here on the rightness or wrongness of the results drove me to skip the comments. Only calmer bodies of work have been readable (such as Unz Review, and thank you for that). And what they portray is what the passion wanted to portray, but couldn't - because, passion.

But when the passion is absent, and only the journalistic facts remain - which is all we ever needed, without any embellishment whatsoever - a picture emerges that says the fat lady is NOT ready to sing yet.

This opens up a different world - the entertainment just returned.

Dispassionately speaking.

Posted by: Grieved | Nov 10 2020 6:36 utc | 287

@gm | Nov 9 2020 22:39 utc | 264

Sorry...I had not refreshed the page before I posted the exact same thing as you already just had shared.
No worries, the only thing that matters is for people to realize how blatant the fraud is. It was 'in your face' on live TV...

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 10 2020 6:58 utc | 288

This is an interesting development

Barr authorizes Justice to probe any 'substantial allegations' of voter fraud

Posted by: Down South | Nov 10 2020 8:16 utc | 289

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 10 2020 5:40 utc | 284

Agree. I loved the dude but he seemed to get a bit too unstable too quick. I hope he comes back to explain.

That said, if there's anything as anonymous as the MoA comment section, beyond 8chan, anyway, then I don't know of it - so whatever he said he'd "do" to anyone here including bullets to the head should only be taken rhetorically and not pounced upon by so many regulars who have their own hateful history of comments, albeit not so imaginarily violent.

Anyway, my point in dropping in was Down South's latest repetition (not accusing you of intentionally repeating) of the William Barr gambit as far as Trump's DOJ sniffing out largely imaginary election fraud by sending in armed federal troops to oversee....what exactly? The recounts in just a few states? What jurisdiction do they have in terms of actually deciding which votes get counted and which don't?

On top of that I still refer back to the fact that several of these states have either full Republican leadership or large Republican Trump supporting groups of legislators, observers, district/county/precinct officials, etc. that shouldn't it be abundantly fucking clear when and if examples of fraud are uncovered? This process is watched far more granularly than the mystery steel from WTC shipped off to China within the same time period that Bush was sending his Saudi cronies home despite a total ban on air travel. IOW, there's a fucking paper trail. So when someone comes up with something substantial, material or even just maybe suspicious, don't you think the right wing Twitterverse and other sites would be producing some evidence with zero ambiguity? So far nothing.

Back to Down South's post - With Barr and the (presumably) full weight of the DoJ and states investigating ANY reported fraud, we should expect to hear something of merit and substantial within the month, should we not? And if we don't can we reasonably request that the converse to the Russiagating be limited here other than newsworthy stories, including of hypocrisy by the Dems for sure, so as to make the comments section a more civilized place again?

Let's give it a month, or until December __ whenever the American states have to certify their electoral votes before we get too far down any more rabbit holes of conspiracy without actual evidence, shall we?

Posted by: _K_C_ | Nov 10 2020 9:09 utc | 290

"Only calmer bodies of work have been readable (such as Unz Review, and thank you for that)."
WTF? I read that sometimes but quite a lot of the contributors are howling at the moon, not to speak of much of the commentariat...

Posted by: Waldorf | Nov 10 2020 9:50 utc | 291

Piotr Berman, Sorry, I should have said more chaos and division. If that's possible.
William Gruff, I'd say that's accurate, but this year has been so crazy anything can happen.
Anne, Circe says she doesn't use drugs. Maybe Prozac would be a suitable prescription.
And finally Circe! Give my regards to the coven.

Posted by: Shadow | Nov 10 2020 10:47 utc | 292

Somebodys dog voted in the election (the owner's vote was not counted)

Voter fraud, dog votes in 2020 presidential election.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9mmENG7qb8

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 10 2020 10:51 utc | 293

@Norwegian | Nov 9 2020 6:28 utc | 100
I tried to respond to you 3x, but here is censorship.

Posted by: Xpilgrim | Nov 10 2020 11:00 utc | 294

@Xpilgrim | Nov 10 2020 11:00 utc | 294
Just explain in your own words what the video is about. I am not logging in.

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 10 2020 11:06 utc | 295

Figaro wants french readers to believe that there is "Kamala-mania" in the USA.Is there?

https://www.lefigaro.fr/elections-americaines/presidentielle-americaine-une-kamala-mania-s-empare-des-etats-unis-20201109

In Albertville (Savoie) police have arrested four eleven-year old primary school children for being "apologetic to terrorism".Everything is possible in the Homeland of Human Rights,as the ultra-corrupt France likes to billboard itself.

Posted by: willie | Nov 10 2020 11:33 utc | 296

Has anybody considered the crazy possibility of an idea that Biden's mental problems are fake?Like they gave him drugs that provoke this kind of oblivion and make him look stupid in the eyes of many,whilst officially denying that fact plain to see for whoever listens to his speeches and interviews?So by putting a stop on those drugs he is "back to normal" again,ready to pursue his murderous ,treacherous corrupt war-mongering behaviour and put masks on every stupid usaian face? He has spoken quite coherently recently,did he not?

It is not that I believe this supposition,but one has to be sure considering all possibilties,even if this might place me as a challenger in the outrabbiting-jackrabbit competition.

Posted by: willie | Nov 10 2020 11:44 utc | 297

Norwegian @ 293

I was right again! I predicted Biden would sweep the Pet Vote.

Posted by: EoinW | Nov 10 2020 11:46 utc | 298

Grieved @ 287

"It's Twitter that's not legit"

I've actually found twitter to be one of the better sources of information. Of course it's just like MOA, you have some commenters you trust and others that you ignore. :)

I see this shaping up as a battle between mainstream media and social media against the will of the people. The NY Times is amazing as a flagship of propaganda in favor of Biden and also posting false narratives on Bolivia etc.

I was also amazed at the amount of blocking twitter did on pro Trump and anti Biden commentary. But kernels of what is really going on re the fraud and lawsuits etc slip through.

I was ready to accept a Biden victory also as both have their weak and strong points but to see an election possibly decided by massive fraud and manipulation of media is very distasteful. As is, I admit, seeing a host of neocons and neolibs coming to power again.

Posted by: financial matters | Nov 10 2020 11:51 utc | 299

Youtube (17 min) interview by Simone Gao. She spoke with a republican Detroit election watcher who worked on a shift on election night and the next morning to observe the ballot count. What she saw and experienced during that period is very concerning, it raised more questions on the transparency and legitimacy of this election rather than clearing those doubts for us.

The election watcher comes across as being a very credible eye witness to a lot of very bad stuff happening that night at that Detroit counting center.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=begUUMQg-fU

Posted by: gm | Nov 10 2020 11:55 utc | 300

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