Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 15, 2020

Al-Qaeda's Number 2 Killed In 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 ... 2017, 2020

From the mouth of Mossad:

The United States and Israel worked together to track and kill a senior al-Qaida operative in Iran earlier this year, a bold intelligence operation by the two allied nations that came as the Trump administration was ramping up pressure on Tehran.

Four current and former U.S. officials said Abu Mohammed al-Masri, al-Qaida’s No. 2, was killed by assassins in the Iranian capital in August. The U.S. provided intelligence to the Israelis on where they could find al-Masri and the alias he was using at the time, while Israeli agents carried out the killing, according to two of the officials. The two other officials confirmed al-Masri’s killing but could not provide specific details.

The story is laughable. If any important al-Qaeda guy had been killed last August Trump would have screamed about it during his campaign from the top of his lungs.

Twelve years ago we already joked about all the fake "Al-Qaeda No.2 killed" stories which appeared in 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008.

There have since been quite a few more of these:

Being Al-Qaeda's number 2 is a dangerous job!

As No.2 one might be media-killed anytime the U.S. seeks a pretext to ramp up sanctions on Iran.

Posted by b on November 15, 2020 at 9:53 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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Is this the same person or just the person in the role at the time? Is being number one/three protected or do they suffer similarly?

Posted by: JohninMK | Nov 15 2020 10:29 utc | 1

The cheap and shameless propaganda of the Western government and its media is truly laughable. It's like the Western elites have come to believe that the GM food they feed the populace must be doing its work of numbling the intelligence of the masses.

Posted by: Steve | Nov 15 2020 10:36 utc | 2

Teheran has been a magnet for the top leaders of international terrorism for decades. Naken Gun was right :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzGmVUFDomc

Posted by: Brendan | Nov 15 2020 10:39 utc | 3

I think the damaged done on Iran, in the War of Nagorno-Karabach, is much greater then any sanction that could be imposed and thus such little stories are not of any substantial importance anymore.

Unfortunately no one could clearly see what was going on in NK conflict, and in almost all analysis (including those provided by alternative media), one could read about everything but the core of the geopolitics behind the conflict.
Geopoliticaly, this war was about future trade routes and redefining one of BRI corridors in favour of Turkey. And the cease fire agreement, achieved this.

We are talking about BRI corridor China-Central Asia- West Asia. All the efforts done by Turkey in this war was to achieve a road + railroad connection between Baku and Nackchevan thus having a direct transit between Baku and east Turkey. Before this war, China- Central Asia- West Asia was planned to go through north Iran transit. Now Turkey can connect the ports in Turkmenbashi (Turkmenistan) and Baku (Azarbaijan) and redefine the planned BRI corridor to go through “Turkish Brotherhood Area”. The traitor Pashaniyan and his CIA/MI6 advisors helped this to happen and Russians ignored the great damage this would cause for Iran and in a lesser dimension also for themselves (they still got the north corridor).

Posted by: Framarz | Nov 15 2020 11:01 utc | 4

Lying is so much cheaper and easier than actually being able to do things.

Unfortunately some people seem to find it habit forming.

Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 15 2020 11:37 utc | 5

A No2 AlQaeda operative would more likely be in Saudi Arabia or Israel than in Iran.
Enough with the bullshit and fake intelligence. No more wars for Israel and the Wahhabis.

Posted by: No2 | Nov 15 2020 12:11 utc | 6

Clearly setting up Iran to be bombed after the next terrorist attack on the West.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 15 2020 12:47 utc | 7

On a side note... is it just me, or is a new war starting every week???

Just as NK in the Caucasus winds down... here are 2 African conflicts about to blow up on opposite sides of the continent. Why now, if not why at all? Who is pushing for these separatist agendas to escalate, in a time when cooperation with National Gov'ts would seem like the sensible strategy to survive the pandemic?

-Tigray region in Ethiopia:
Ethiopia's Nile river Dam was a big geopolitical hot issue with Egypt threatening war not long ago. Fast forward a few months, separatists in Tigray are threatening secession and alleged atrocities are being committed, refugees fleeing, crisis already spilling over to neighbouring countries. Coincidence, or are agitators being 'encouraged' by certain foreign neighbours looking to destabilise Ethiopia?
Now someone just launched missiles into Eritrea from Tigray, for what reason exactly, other than to create even more chaos?? will we be seeing foreign 'peacekeepers' soon enforcing a no fly zone?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopia-conflict/forces-from-ethiopias-tigray-region-bombed-eritrean-capital-tigray-leader-says-idUSKBN27V05M
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopia-violence/gunmen-in-western-ethiopia-kill-at-least-34-people-in-bus-attack-rights-body-says-idUSKBN27V0DF

-Morocco and West Sahara:
Another escalation, seemingly out of nowhere too. What has motivated this sudden urge to launch a war in Western Sahara and end a 30 year long ceasefire?
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN27T15S
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN27U0GE

Posted by: Et Tu | Nov 15 2020 13:00 utc | 8

As for the article.... basically, news about Al Qaeda Number 2's is mostly Bovine 'Number Two'...

Posted by: Et Tu | Nov 15 2020 13:03 utc | 9

"Al-Qaeda's Number 2 Killed In 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 ... 2017, 2020"

You know your society is sick when you brag about murdering people.

I can't even imagine being proud of murder, let alone more than likely killing one of my own employees just to justify all my past murders.

Ever wonder why the elite are such cowards ? At one time some of them actually led their armies into battle. Now they just hide in their multi million dollar bunkers and think up new ways to control people so they can steal from them with complete impunity....

Posted by: dave | Nov 15 2020 13:08 utc | 10

And thank you for that dave @ 10
The elite do what they do becouse at the moment there are no personal consequences to their evil actions and words, that needs to chainge.
That cartoon picture is insulting. b

Posted by: Mark2 | Nov 15 2020 13:15 utc | 11

Posted by: Et Tu | Nov 15 2020 13:00 utc | 8

"is it just me, or is a new war starting every week???"

It's not just you. I think there are several things coming together now. First you have the migration crisis caused by global warming, overpopulation in certain regions, and wars. And of course the destabilizing effects of mass migration to go with it.

Also, the mechanisms of global governance, which deterred these "little" wars, are disintegrating, not to say under attack.

Along with that you have the pandemic, and the incompetence of the hegemon and various governments to deal with it. If it's a Chernoble moment for anybody, it's for the states that failed the Corona test.

So I expect lots more little wars going forward.

Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 15 2020 13:28 utc | 12

It was in Irak under Saddam Hussein protection (he was in the same storage that the WMD), then move to Libya under the protection of Gaddafi (taking Viagra to rape innocent women), then move to Syria protected by Assad (helping with the chemical attacks on civilians, of course), and then go to Iran under the protection of the terrorists mullahs (to help preparing terrorist attacks on the "free world"), next stop Norh Korea, then Russia and then China.

Because if the Pravda of the Potomac (Wapo) and the Izvestia of the Hudson (NYT) say that, of course it must be true; as were the 19 editorials of NYT and Wapo claiming it was beyond any doubt Saddam had WMD and was an extreme danger to the neighbors countries and the "free world".

And then the MSM talk about to ban fake news...

Posted by: DFC | Nov 15 2020 13:37 utc | 13

Kenny from South Park grew up to become Al Qaeda's nr 2 ? Of course in any organisation when nr X is killed someone will replace this person so you can effectively keep killing nr X. Not all the nr 2's killed were called al-Masri.

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Nov 15 2020 13:40 utc | 14

@Posted by: Et Tu | Nov 15 2020 13:00 utc | 8

On a side note, I reported about the new wars during the whole past week/this weekend, of course, as there is no thread on the issues, at the Open Thread.

I, and especially people who can tell the facts from the wolf´s mouth ( having lived there for around a decade ), see the conflict in Ethiopia just opposite than you do....

In a nutshell, regime change operation being carried out some years ago by US puppet by stirring up ethnic differences in peaceful country on the the last, of may be unique, remaining independent from colonial rule in Africa ans thus sovereign on its government ideologym tending to socialism, and management resources.... Tigray people had been important part of central government until Abyi Ahmed, whose Alma Mater is in the US, arrives. In the verge of being desposesed from political participation and marginalized through dictatorial means, like cutting off essential services to the whole population in that region, which equates intend of extermination by hunger and thirst, TPLF tried a referendum on self-determination, when "Nobel Peace Prize" Abyi Ahmed launched a war on them, with the unestimable help of Eritrean government, currentl ya dictatorship... Since then, as triggering events, numerous false flag on civilians being blamed on Tigray people to demonize them are happening, like today´s against a bus where 34 people have died...

Regime-Change Mission in Ethiopia by Nobel Peace Laureate

Nobel Prize License to Kill

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Nov 15 2020 13:46 utc | 15

The publication of fake news about the killing of AQ N.2, once more time, comes to fit with rushing steps by outgoing Trump administration to lit the ME on fire to please the Israelis and try to conditionate next US administraion´s foreign policy.

Pompeo will be visiting next week illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank, inaugurating something none government official has so far done, since goes against International Law, which, obviously, as it has got clear during his tenure, Pompeo passes through that part....

As extravaganza, Pompeo will be visiting there a settlers´ winnery, "Psagot", which produces a wine which carries his name!!!!

Palestinian PM: Pompeo visit would set ‘dangerous precedent’

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Nov 15 2020 13:59 utc | 16

@ #12

"Along with that you have the pandemic, and the incompetence of the hegemon and various governments to deal with it."

It has nothing to do with incompetence, it has to do with killing off the old and the weak to avoid paying pensions and the expense of keeping them alive and healthy. Failing the test on purpose also works to keep people from uniting around other issues like the very unpopular forever wars, the siege warfare via sanctions upon key strategic regions, and the destruction of culture needed to turn the entire world into the mindless materialist needed for exploitation.

There is no longer any actual science due to the fact any scientist that calls into question the sketchy BS passing for science today is instantly attacked and cut off from any funding they may be in line for in the future. Not to mention being ridiculed by the elite's PR machine. Enough money buys scientific consensus and has for quite some time now. That's been true since Phillip Morris.

I wouldn't be so sure about only little wars breaking out either since the American public can no longer display any sort of effective dissent and is completely cut off from doing anything about foreign or economic policy going back decades.

We've lost habeas corpus and posse comitatus and the AUMF says the elite can drone bomb American citizens anywhere on the globe, including American soil. Or they can lock you up without due process in a black site gulag somewhere never to be heard from again.

If they want a big war, we'll have one while the elite hide in their bunkers.
The only thing you can count on is that as usual no billionaires will be killed or harmed in any of these world shattering events.

Stay safe and sane, don't let other people choose your friends or enemies for you. Other poor people are not your enemy, they're being lied to just like you are.

Posted by: dave | Nov 15 2020 14:02 utc | 17

Israel (Mossad) recruited a Pakistan-based Sunni extremist organization, Jundallah, to kill Iranian Shia women and children.
While recruiting Jundallah, Mossad posed as American CIA in the hopes that Iran would blame the US for the terrorism and Iran would then retaliate in-kind
against the US.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/01/13/false-flag/

Posted by: librul | Nov 15 2020 14:07 utc | 18

"The story is laughable. If any important al-Qaeda guy had been killed last August Trump would have screamed about it during his campaign from the top of his lungs."

That assumes that Trump was informed.

We now know that he was lied to about troop levels in Syria. Is it inconceivable that the killing was kept from him so he couldn't use it as election fodder (not that it would have made much difference anyway)?

Of course, it's possible the whole thing is an Israeli mock-up designed to trumpet the allegation that Iran is "in bed with" AQ and prevent Biden from re-establishing JCPOA. Frankly, I'll be surprised if Biden, another loyal servant of Israel-lobby political operatives and funders, ever goes back to the agreement. His campaign has been ambiguous on the point, and the ambiguity was mostly meant to avoiding the appearance of trashing an Obama achievement during the election. I expect him to find some pre-text to make new demands that Iran will reject in order to avoid displeasing his Chosenist masters.

But of course it's possible that a senior AQ guy was killed in Iran, since Iran has detained AQ family members since 2003 as an insurance policy against AQ attacks.

That pro-Israel and/or anti-Trump operatives are engaged in some lying here goes without saying, but what the nature of that lying is is hard to gauge at this point.

Posted by: Oscar Peterson | Nov 15 2020 14:20 utc | 19

So...The NYT is now working for Mossad?

The NYT story reads like a false-flag, and has similarities to prior actions by Israel (see my post @18).

Israel has someone killed in Iran and The NYT attempts to stain (false-flag) the US with the killing.

Perhaps someone (an Iranian government official, perhaps?) **was** killed in Iran and the reference to al-Qaeda
is simply the public cover. The US knows it wasn't al-Qaeda, Israel knows it wasn't al-Qaeda and Iran knows it wasn't
al-Qaeda, but Israel is just sending a public signal that they did it and the US is also responsible.

The NYT is doing the dirty work for Mossad?

Posted by: librul | Nov 15 2020 14:48 utc | 20

Clearly the MICIMATT at all levels assume that everyone - beyond themselves, the "well" educated - are as thick as two short planks and that they know zero about Iran and even less about the fact that Al Qaeda is a Sunni, and Saudian, creature. And not merely Sunni but Wahhabist - i.e. at the ultra extreme end of Sunni Islam.

Yes, there is a Sunni population in Iran (there are several different religions within Iran). And it is remotely conceivable that AQ's #2 was in Tehran (unbeknownst to the Iranian government and authorities). But to link - as this story does - the Iranian government, authorities to Al Qaeda is insulting to Iranians and to our intelligence.

I do not doubt though that MICIMATT - and its obscene representative (Pimpeo) are up to something, and that that something is intended to benefit "Israel."

Another, minor question I had as soon as I heard this so-called report was: surely the Iranian border isn't as porous as this tale suggests? And if it is - why not in both directions? Time for some retaliatory skullduggery, surely?

Posted by: Anne | Nov 15 2020 14:49 utc | 21

Add to this the large number of *hits* one still gets from a search of the terms [al-zarqawi lieutenant killed], and more recently [ISIS (aka Daesh, IS) second-in-command killed].

It's the time-tested way the CIA /deep state keeps its desired narratives on the front pages of the fake news, and its trained terrorist assets on their toes (and then retires them when their services are no longer required/*loose ends* need to be cleaned up).

In other words, a well-established 'win-win-win' personnel management policy of our regime-changing, deep-state overlords.

Posted by: gm | Nov 15 2020 14:49 utc | 22

We obviously now know who the #2 of al-Qaeda for each year is, but who is/was #1 after the demise of Mr. bin-Laden?

Can someone tell me who the #1 is?

Posted by: apleb | Nov 15 2020 14:53 utc | 23

AQ "loses" its #2 yet again, and even if it did, so what. He's easily replaced. . .In other news, the Pentagon will lose its #2 soon -- Vice Chair Joint Chiefs Hyten To Leave Next Year. A new guy to fetch the coffee for #1! (Who also doesn't do much -- the real work is done by the grunts out in the field. . .same with AQ.)

Regarding Israel, everything it ever claims is accepted by the MSM and never doubted because criticism of Israel government actions could be considered to be anti-Semitism, a huge no-no. Any such criticism would have to be defended, with proof that such criticism has been leveled against another country also.

The December 11, 2019 Executive Order on Combating Anti-Semitism lays down the rules which include (quotes): . . . enforcing Title VI shall consider the following:
(i) the non-legally binding working definition of anti Semitism adopted on May 26, 2016, by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA). . ."Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 15 2020 15:15 utc | 24

@ apleb # 23
Can someone tell me who the #1 is?
Gooogle is your friend.
Ayman Mohammed Rabie al-Zawahiri is an Egyptian terrorist known for being the leader of terrorist group al-Qaeda since June 2011.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 15 2020 15:19 utc | 25

: Jackrabbit | Nov 15 2020 12:47 utc | 7

(set up)

I agree. See also WSWS dot org "Is Trump plotting a war against Iran?"

It does look like we ought to see the full context. Orange might stay in power too, especially if the outcome is reallyreallybad.

An'th'zee ion z surely can help out like they did in 2001. They say Orange owes a debt too...and time's a wastin'

False flag? No problem

I recall General Turgidson saying "I don't like the look of this, Fred."

(I may misremember "Fred")

see also @ wsws > "Foreword to 30 Years of War, the German edition of David North’s A Quarter Century of War"

later...

Posted by: Walter | Nov 15 2020 15:56 utc | 26

al Qaeda - the gift that keeps on giving...

Posted by: gottlieb | Nov 15 2020 16:00 utc | 27

Why can’t they ever kill no. 1? Incompetence, or does he remain forever-killed?

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | Nov 15 2020 16:12 utc | 28

@mark....Um no u r insulting to all the non fascist patrons of this bar. Wannabe.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Nov 15 2020 16:35 utc | 29

Al-Qaeda's Number 2 Killed In 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 ... 2017, 2020

Er, this isn't correct.

Al-Qaeda's Number 2 from 2001-Osama Bin Laden's "death" in 2011 was Ayman al-Zawahiri.

Ergo, Al-Qaeda's Number 2 was not killed in 2005, 2006, 2007 or 2008.

In 2017 and 2020 - you might be right.

Posted by: Julian | Nov 15 2020 17:36 utc | 30

Tannenhouser @28

The West has two kinds of fascism these days: Fascists and anti-fascists. Kind of a belt and suspenders approach to keeping the common man under the heel of the establishment's boot. Just like how the West has two kinds of terrorists as well: terrorists and anti-terrorists.

Everyone here knows that al Qaeda was created by the US (CIA, specifically) to give the Soviets a hard time in their efforts to provide educational opportunities to young girls in Afghanistan (as opposed to opportunities to be married off to their toothless uncles).

Now that Trump is out of the way of the "competent leaders" in the empire, the terrorists/anti-terrorists can get back to destroying civil society around the world. As I mentioned before the MIC/CIA are already "surging" their operations worldwide and ignoring the Trump administration now that they know it is on its way out. Trump will have to do a whole lot more firing if he wants to stop that.

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 15 2020 18:17 utc | 31

@William Gruff. Thanks for that. Agreed. IMO I'm not the one who needs to practice introspection where fascism is concerned, that duty belongs to other's namely our closeted fascist Mark2 among other's

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Nov 15 2020 19:05 utc | 32

@15

"I, and especially people who can tell the facts from the wolf´s mouth ( having lived there for around a decade )"

Especially the last quote in H.Schmatz comments should raise a certain level of suspicion. Being a member of the HoA community, I can assure you that this plant is engaging in purposeful misinformation.

Here are the facts, the small clique of hard line leaders of the Tigray region that controlled Ethiopia with an iron fist, were the favored clients of the U.S. and Europe. The ascension of Trump and his policy of removing "aid" from most of the "shit hole countries" in the world (which included Ethiopia) caused the immediate collapse of the highly unpopular minority ruled TPLF government in 2018.
Unfortunately, in the 25+ years they were in office and under close tutelage of the U.S. empire, they caused considerable amount of chaos in the region. With their sole goal of a pie-in-the-sky scheme of destabilizing the region internally and externally so that they could engage in land grab and then declare independence. And this misguided policy was fully supported by the U.S. and other Western countries, as they too engaged in this theft.
Greater Tigray
Land Grabbing in Ethiopia

In affect, H. Schmatz speaks with an agenda, and it's highly probable that he is the garden variety Neo-liberal who are set to retake power in January which will include war hawks like Hillary Clinton and especially Susan Rice.
If readers are interested in getting a better perspective in the current events that are unfolding please read the following article:
TPLF Spokesman Admits to Sparking the Conflict in Ethiopia and Plunging Tigray into Darkness

Posted by: Lalimba | Nov 15 2020 19:07 utc | 33

“Barbara Slavin
@barbaraslavin1
·
Nov 14
Human rights must return to the US #Iran agenda along with
@theIrandeal
A year after the November protests, human rights violators have not been held accountable in Iran https://atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/iransource/a-year-after-the-november-protests-human-rights-violators-have-not-been-held-accountable-in-iran/… via
@AtlanticCouncil”

Barbara Slavin, NATO paid head of Atlantic council’s to (destabilize) Future of Iran is hoping with coming Biden admin she and various associated Iranian Atlantic BUTT leakers can go back and dived Iranians from inside on BS human right issues.
This A hole and her Future of Iran SOBs should be reminded of this Iranian proverb “ if you were a doctor you would have cured your own headaches” starting with your 400 years old institutionalized racism as well as corrupt undemocratic elections , this other Iranian proverb is also of essence for Atlantic council’s Iran futurist.
The lamp that is much need at home is forbidden to be given to mosque. Iran and Iranian don’t need your help Barbara, instead you should put your focus helping poor institutionally discriminated American all across this country, with what is happening to and in this Shinning city on the hill Atlantic council needs to start a future of America program.

Posted by: Kooshy | Nov 15 2020 19:28 utc | 34

Posted by: Lalimba | Nov 15 2020 19:07 utc | 32


H. Schmatz lived for around a decade in Ethopia just like the author (Finian Cunningham) of both articles H. Schmatz links to who writes:

I lived in Ethiopia’s Tigray region for eight years.

So I am about to conclude that Cunningham writes under the pseudonym H. Schmatz.
Dunno though. Would be odd.

Posted by: v | Nov 15 2020 19:48 utc | 35

Posted by: Framarz | Nov 15 2020 11:01 utc | 4

Framarz, are you BSing yourself or this blogs well informed readers, the outcome of the ward wouldn’t have been leas costly to Iran and Russia.
So the new Silk Road will go from Turkmenistan to Azerbaijan on ship through Caspian Sea and from Azerbaijan through a supposed to be build small corridor to Nakhchivan and then from the small 1 mile wide border to Turkey which physically Iran controls, what easy way all this to avoid going through Iran’s already existing rail and highway system ? Would you explain what is in it for China to go through all this, why would China exclude Iran ? You are a troll use it.

Posted by: Kooshy | Nov 15 2020 19:52 utc | 36

Seems unlikely that the CIA had an active part in this, if the story isn't completely fictional. Iran has apparently been spanking CIA pretty hard for the past few years:
https://news.yahoo.com/cias-communications-suffered-catastrophic-compromise-started-iran-090018710.html/

Anyone seen Michael D'Andrea lately?

Posted by: NoOneYouKnow | Nov 15 2020 20:00 utc | 37

Posted by: NoOneYouKnow | Nov 15 2020 20:00 utc | 36

Last I heard he was camping in Hindu Kush ( in Farsi means Indian killer )

Posted by: Kooshy | Nov 15 2020 20:14 utc | 38

Mr Gwuff @30 - Indeed...if not by name, then certainly (along with the Taliban and so on) by intent and determination. But hey - let's just bury all of that, of our (via the CIA) creativity (isn't that the latest catch word?). AQ were (at least Mr bin Laden) of Saudia origin... so a combo of Saudia extreme islamism and CIA training, funding....And we - the west, especially the beacon - consider ourselves "moral," (Biden's latest description of the beacon), "leaders" (and so righteously, rightfully so)... Talk about Newspeak.

Posted by: Anne | Nov 15 2020 20:17 utc | 39

An al-Qaida representative in Iran is not impossible, just improbable. Such a person, although the Iranian government may be quite open, would have been as exposed to assassination by Iranians, as by Israel.

The issue is why such an announcement should have been put out. Is it a provocation for the US to attack Iran? Not likely. More likely supposed proof that Israel can strike where it wants, when it wants. It is not difficult to find dissident Iranians. Not a great achievement.

Posted by: Laguerre | Nov 15 2020 20:18 utc | 40

Who ever writes about rerouted new Silk Road either is trolling for the west or has no knowledge how trade routes work. Trade route traditionally and historically go through major populations and large cities that’s what make them viable or economical, there is a reason that Orginal Silk Road went through Iran with a major distribution being Rey (Tehran) and the next hub being Halab ( Aleppo) Tehran and Halab were two major south to north and east to west intersections and major distribution centers, I am confident this will remain and will not change with new Silk Road, Tehran makes possible reaching Indian Ocean and Persian gulf states and Halab makes possible reaching Mediterranean ports and African states. While the road through Russia is to serve Russia and northern Europe. All this is to avoid Malacca, Bab al Mandeb, Suez straits.
IMO major reason for Syrian war was to deny access to Mediterranean Sea to easterners, Israel and Turkey were to benefit as well as US and EU.

Posted by: Kooshy | Nov 15 2020 20:45 utc | 41

Posted by: Laguerre | Nov 15 2020 20:18 utc | 39

Was an Israeli attempt to make Iran look like is supporting AQ terrorist Theodore making it more difficult for incoming Adminstration to re join JCPOA, usual out of touch Israeli NYT attempt.

Posted by: Kooshy | Nov 15 2020 20:49 utc | 42

Posted by: Lalimba | Nov 15 2020 19:07 utc | 32


H. Schmatz lived for around a decade in Ethopia just like the author (Finian Cunningham) of both articles H. Schmatz links to who writes:

I lived in Ethiopia’s Tigray region for eight years.
So I am about to conclude that Cunningham writes under the pseudonym H. Schmatz.
Dunno though. Would be odd.

Posted by: v | Nov 15 2020 19:48 utc | 34

Thanks righting the wrong (misinformation). I read Cunningham for a while and lost confidence after reading his drivel about the monster called the TPLF. Despite what Ethiopians think about their Prime Minister, no person worth calling himself Ethiopian sheds tears for this mafia type thriving and murderous cartel. The British and Herman Cohen imposed the group disenfranchising other political players. They ruled the country with iron fist. The set it up so it can splinter in narrow ethnic lines. They committed crimes and genocide. They stole land. Being less than 6% of the 110 million, they possessed most valued resources and the means of violence, the military. They had the most generals and officers. Their major crime: perpetrating ethnic violence. When God made them crazy, they attacked the national defense forces they built up after stealing almost 70% of the military hardware. No power in the world will tolerate that kind of delusion. They basically wanted to hide behind the people of Tigray if they were attacked. They wanted to antagonize with their nemesis in the north by drawing them into war. The TPLF failed miserably. Their days seemed to be numbered. V is spot on his story. It seems to me Ethiopia is not out of the woods unless TPLF instituted (accepted by the prime minister) constituted ethnic based constitutional travesty is thrown out.

Posted by: Maskal | Nov 15 2020 20:57 utc | 43

Steve | Nov 15 2020 10:36 utc | 2

Fluoride dumbs down people and causes a lowered sperm count. Major users are the US and Ireland, who put it in the water supply. It is also used in toothpaste, so yes, there has been a systematic "dumbing down" of western populations. Just like lead pipes were a big part of the "elite's" madness in Rome, so fluoride is another hidden chemical that ruins empires.

Posted by: Stonebird | Nov 15 2020 21:09 utc | 44

welp the cia-mossad is the # 1 al qaada rep.. we know that much.... i can't understand why they put out this stuff...

fascinating ruminations on our poster h schmatz.... when does h schmatz give a response??

Posted by: james | Nov 15 2020 21:13 utc | 45

Posted by: Kooshy | Nov 15 2020 20:45 utc | 40

The Silk Road initiative was a project of UNESCO, intended to revive the cultural economies of Central Asia. The original Silk Road, bringing a product whose secret of production was kept a long time by China, passed mainly by Iran, but not only. It all ended, when sea transport became the norm, much more efficient, in the 8th century.

In the new "Silk Road", trains are organised for delivery of products between Peking and Berlin. They pass by Siberia. Unfortunately not via Iran. One even reached Ostend, for transmission to Britain. But that was an isolated case.

Posted by: Laguerre | Nov 15 2020 21:24 utc | 46

Does anybody have any insight into what is going on in Peru. The interim president has resigned after days of protests.

As far as I know Peru has long been the Empire's most loyal vassal in Latin America.

Posted by: dh-mtl | Nov 15 2020 21:48 utc | 47

hey why come up with new product when you can just recycle old product? works in hollywood, works in propaganda. at least hollywood names it a sequel.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 15 2020 22:28 utc | 48

no the fascism in the usa is not coming from anti fascists, it's coming from good old jackbooted government thugs and their bootlickers, who pretend that people resisting that are (inserting whatever label their current story requires) communists or fascists or agents of the new world order. you want to see fascists in the us of a, just look at crime bill joe or "radical leftists need to be killed for the good of society" donald trump. trump was basically a standard republican president, not an existential threat, except perhaps to a few gravy trains in washington, now replaced by different gravy trains. and that means he is a fascist, every bit as much as biden.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 15 2020 22:37 utc | 49

Posted by: Laguerre | Nov 15 2020 21:24 utc | 45

That is only, if you assume the only trade trade is between Germany and China, that is not how the trades work, silk road was not meant or even used for 1 item of trade, even the name Silk Road is new made by european academia. the ancient traders never made the name remensent of one item trade, at least read the wiki description.It was not meant to trade just in silk and just with europe. Trade routes even sea trade routes are not made to trade one item and with one country. trade routes pass through or to major population centers (markets) and have major hubs to branch out.

Posted by: kooshy | Nov 15 2020 22:49 utc | 50

Posted by: v | Nov 15 2020 19:48 utc | 34

Thanks v, I did read Finian Cunningham's disappointing analysis of the situation Ethiopia. I know how hard it can be to gather information from that part of the world and it becomes even more exacerbated when truth is the first victim of war. And thus, it would have been nice for Mr. Cunningham to simply report the news and not purposely muddy the already mucked up situation.

Posted by: Lalimba | Nov 15 2020 23:00 utc | 51

Posted by: Laguerre | Nov 15 2020 21:24 utc | 45

US, and before that UK, have invested heavily to take control of sea trade routes with ( at least 12) navy aircraft carrier task forces,plus various navy bases around important sea choking points. that is what is making a fiat currency viable, like Rial was during spanish control of seas.
The ancient silk road between east and west became almost useless with ottomans coming to power and taking control between east and west, and heavily taxing european traders. before europeans find their way circling Africa. Circumventing Africa, to India, persia and china sea or even discovering America, was mostly due to go east by avoiding ottomans.
The revival of silk road by china to Mediterranean Sea and Europe, is precisely for the same reason, to avoid western control of the sea route if when needs may be.

Posted by: kooshy | Nov 15 2020 23:11 utc | 52

@35 @40 Kooshy
I have read your posts in the previous thread related to the NK conflict. While I can not judge how well informed other members of this blog are, I can assure you that you are not an informed attendee by the degree of your knowledge demonstrated here.

There are already a functioning BRI corridor between Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan. It’s called Lapis Lazuli corridor. I suggest you review the full list of active BRI projects and locations where China has direct investments. There are still no functioning corridor attached to Iran while based on the cease fire agreement for NK, Nakhchevan- Baku “Free Transit” is going to extend Lapis Lazuli to east Turkey. For your further information, from Nakhchevan on into Turkey there will be two extensions, one going south to Irak, Syria and occupied Palestine, the other going north west to Balkans and Europe.

For your information, and whom it may interest, right after cease-fire in NK, part of academics in Iran went public with harsh critic against the new liberal Rouhani government and accused the government of acting not in accordance with the Iranian national interests. An essay by Dr. Ehsan Movahediyan, engaged by the Center for Scientific Research and Strategic Studies of the Middle East, went so far to call Rouhani Government responsible for “Loss of Iran’s border to Armenia”. (Fars News Agency – 13.Nov.20)

I invite you and who may be interested, to check also the fact that the corridor supplying countries in Persian Golf and East Africa is already serviced by Pakistan. (Gwadar Port)

I neither think nor call you a troll. You are here just by accident and talking above the level of your objective understanding of Geo-politics. Have a cold beer and enjoy your time!

Posted by: Framarz | Nov 15 2020 23:20 utc | 53

Posted by: Framarz | Nov 15 2020 23:20 utc | 52

You still need to explain why would China want to avoid using and not going through Iran existing infrastructures? (and still wants a 400 bln trade deal with Iran?) after all say what's init for China doing this? to avoid and weaken Iran, like israel, KSA wants? FYI, none of the BRI routes are fully utilized,not yet, Caspian sea route between Turkmenistan and Bako is not new nor a silk road route, it existed even during USSR, Iran and russia are even not allowing a Gas pipe built from Turkmenistan and Bako, why you are trolling here is the same as finding AQ No. 2 guy in tehran.The Pakistan port still is not very secure since it must pass the Kashmir and Hindu Kush, there is a reason ancient road went through the north of himalayas it was to avoid longer winters and have a longer season of use.
stop BSing here

Posted by: kooshy | Nov 15 2020 23:40 utc | 54

@ 53 Kooshy
Which 400 bln trade agreement between Iran and China you are referring to? The 300 bln (not 400), not on paper, not agreed, and not commented by Chinese officials, “gonna be trade agreement” that foreign minister Zarif took out of the hat in the darkest days of JCPOA aftermath, when people were going to lynch him if walking alone in the streets of Tehran?

I don’t accuse China of trying to weaken Iran, I also not accuse Russia trying to weaken Iran. I think both China and Russia going to act as they see fit for their own interests and sometimes like the case of cease- fire agreement of NK demonstrates, this interests are not the same as Iranian interests.

Posted by: Framarz | Nov 15 2020 23:57 utc | 55

Revival of new silk road as an alternative is mostly beneficial to major countries which can become most affected by possible blocking of sea routes trade by US, these countries are the 3 major countries named daily as national security threat to US, yes China, Russia, Iran they are major countries that form the eurasian, or heartland. For foreseeable time there will be a natural unwritten mutual strategic alliance between these countries to brake western hegemony, this the reason both China and Russia backed Iran in protecting Syria, these are geopolitical facts,that no israeli troll can white wash here. These facts are viable only as long as these countries want to be independent and sovereign from western control. Turkey is a member of NATO, therefore geopolitically cannot be sovereign and trusted, China will not put all her eggs in Turkey's basked nor does Russia, same is true with Pakistan military is still much influenced by US/UK and can turn pakistan around easily.

Posted by: kooshy | Nov 16 2020 0:04 utc | 56

Posted by: Framarz | Nov 15 2020 23:57 utc | 54

As i wrote if you are not trolling you need to explain to people here, why is it beneficial for China to avoid Iran (the most major trade country between China and Europe) and load her trains on sea fairies to avoid and piss off iran.

Stop BSing, don't have time to type and explain basic GP to you

Posted by: kooshy | Nov 16 2020 0:12 utc | 57

@ 55 Kooshy
" For foreseeable time there will be a natural unwritten mutual strategic alliance between these countries to brake western hegemony ..."

Take a moment and ask yourself if there is a "natural mutual strategic alliance" why it's still unwritten?
As I mentioned you are talking above the level of your objective understanding of Geo-politics.
Calling me “an Israeli” proves that you are not even able to politically identify with whom you have an argue. Sorry but I’m not going to continue this game of ping-pong with you.

Posted by: Framarz | Nov 16 2020 0:25 utc | 58

With coming Biden administration and possibility of re-joining JCPOA (realistically out of any alternative) people in west got to get ready for a new storm of negative propaganda planted by Israeli and Arab apparatchik against Iran in western media and blogs. The focus of these negativities will be to show, Iran is supporter of terrorism, Iran is unreliable and undesirable even to her partners, Iran is insecure, incompetent and her future is uncertain. Here China wants to avoid Iran was same as AQ’s no2 was killed in Iran. You all are well use to this negative Anti-Iranian sentiment for years, expect more as we go through transition here. Western Client statelets of Israel, Arabs have panicked on possible Biden ME policies they are trying to prevent a possible rapprochement.

Posted by: kooshy | Nov 16 2020 0:36 utc | 59

Posted by: Framarz | Nov 16 2020 0:25 utc | 57

You have no explanation, do you? I asked a simple question? why should china try to bypass Iran for her southern leg of silk road BRI?

for an strategic mutual easily visible proven goal why there need to be a written agreement? why would you need to even announce it so the other side can form a declared front against you. To block the western/ US hegemony a mutual beneficial desire of the named countries not only don't need to have a written alliance and or form a front, it even shouldn't be formally declared, which hasn't.

Posted by: kooshy | Nov 16 2020 0:47 utc | 60

@ framarz and @ kooshy.... it is an interesting conversation you guys are trying to have! framarz - what is your first language?? it doesn't appear to be english so you have my curiousity.. kooshy has been a poster here at moa for some time and seems to have a very good understanding of iran specifically.. it is ironic that the focus of b's thread here is this ongoing joke which seems to be a clear fabrication on a regular basis of how iran is always evil incarnate.. at a certain point most perceptive people see thru this...

however you seem to want to suggest that this recent dynamic in N-K has somehow upended the relationship between china and iran, or that there exists no relationship with china and iran... i tend to see it as kooshy does and just can't see it as you are trying to portray things here... now, maybe you have some special insight which is why i am curious of your actual language and cultural background in how you come to this realization? thanks.. another question is this - do you believe these ongoing headlines and how the # 2 guy was recently taken out in iran?? it seems about as far fetched lie as i can think up, but i am curious how you see it... thanks... i do see this as more cheap propaganda to try to demonize iran on the world stage and i just don't see it having any validity, but in fact worse - making the usa-israel out to be completely nuts by using the media like a whore regularly for the useless propaganda here...

Posted by: james | Nov 16 2020 1:10 utc | 61

@58 'With coming Biden administration and possibility of re-joining JCPOA..'

A very slim possibility IMO. Biden won't be allowed to make any deals with Iran and he will maintain the pressure on the Syrian government. Also unlikely that any troops will leave Iraq or Afghanistan. Nobody in the US will complain much.

Posted by: dh | Nov 16 2020 1:28 utc | 62

Here's another look at the situation developing in Ethiopia by geopolitical analyst Paul Antonopoulos.

From my deeply uninformed position this looks possibly like conflict seeded to contest China's increasing developmental influence over the rich continent of Africa.


https://www.globalresearch.ca/war-ethiopia-threatens-china-economic-penetration-africa/5729380

Posted by: suzan | Nov 16 2020 1:30 utc | 63

Obvious fakery, courtesy of Mossad (motto: "by way of deception thou shalt do war").

Haven't read through all the comments, but obviously al-Qaida and Iran are enemies, not friends. This scam is a copy of that pulled off by zionist neo-cons 19 years ago, when they successfully blamed the secular government of Saddam Hussein for al-Qaida's crimes ... obscuring the fact that both sides were hostile to each other.

If Americans fall for this, it will be another reason to hold them in utter contempt...

Posted by: Jim | Nov 16 2020 1:36 utc | 64

librul #20

The NYT is doing the dirty work for Mossad?

Yes indeed is is/has. As do Ghislaine Maxwell, Les Wexner and their recently departed CEO.

If you don't cut the rot out, the entire barrel will go bad. Perhaps it has.

This blatant level of infiltration and subversion does not seem to be a USAi priority any where.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 16 2020 1:42 utc | 65

@60 james
James. Of course “#2 guy” narrative is a joke. Although I’m not a regular attendee of the discussions here in MoA, I have followed up enough to know about Bernhard’s entertaining sense of humor and I mostly enjoy it.
I’m not native English-speaking but since I am familiar with 5 western languages in addition to Persian I do frequent on alternative sites like MoA, and in rare cases take part in discussions.

The original issue I raised had nothing to do with the relations between China and Iran at all. I just pointed how part of Iranian analysts view the outcome of NK cease fire agreement and why it could damage the relation between Russia and Iran.
I mentioned that Russia had to take Iranian interests more into consideration before formulating a passage in the agreement guaranteeing a corridor between Nakhchevan and Baku.

Otherwise I have insisted that: “I don’t accuse China of trying to weaken Iran, I also not accuse Russia trying to weaken Iran. I think both China and Russia going to act as they see fit for their own interests and sometimes like the case of cease- fire agreement of NK demonstrates, this interests are not the same as Iranian interests.”

Our friend Kooshy and unfortunately many others around have a fixed idea (I would call it out of the box) about multi-polarity and the driving forces against the US and Zionist exercised NWO and hegemony. That’s ok and you can propagate it but have a clear mind that there are other anti-imperialist/anti-zionists that are not following your narrative.

For instance, it’s not China or Russia standing in the foremost front against the US hegemony in West Asia, It’s the Axis of Resistance and at the heart of this axis stands Iran. Then again, this Iran is not one single government, it’s a power structure shared between 3 different political factions in which one faction actually would like to make a deal with US at the cost of Russia or China. I hope you see the point that out of the box thinking doesn’t help any of us when things are more complicated as they seem to be.

Posted by: Framarz | Nov 16 2020 1:49 utc | 66

Posted by: dh | Nov 16 2020 1:28 utc | 61

I do agree with your overall assessment, Iran' and US differences is much deeper and more principled strategic somewhat existential especially for Iran, than can be corrected with current US posture. Nevertheless, anti Iran forces will do their best to kill any chance at inception.

Posted by: kooshy | Nov 16 2020 2:34 utc | 67

It would be less confusing, and more accurate, if people stopped calling Al-CIA-duh Al-Qaeda, and started calling it Al-CIA-duh. It's not rocket science.

In the late 1970s the Soviet Union was asked by the Afghan Govt to provide military assistance to help put down a rebellion. The Soviet deployment began in late 1979.

The CIA/Swamp decided to get the Soviets bogged down in Afghanistan and invented Al-Qaeda, made up of Saudi wahabbis, and armed them with 10.000 US-made Stinger MANPADS over the course of the ensuing conflict. The strategy worked and the Soviets pulled out of Afghanistan in early 1989 having been beaten and demoraalised after sustaining heavy casualties in men and equipment.

There were still thousands of unused Stingers in Afghanistan when the Soviets departed and the Yankees had to wait until 2001 to organise 9/11, invent the Fake War On Terror, and launch their own invasion, because the shelf-life of Stingers was deemed to be circa 10 years.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 16 2020 3:20 utc | 68

@ Framarz | Nov 16 2020 1:49 utc | 65... thanks! i think i understand and appreciate where you are coming from... please continue to comment when you feel inclined!

Posted by: james | Nov 16 2020 3:42 utc | 69

Thank you James,I started learning and study geopolitics, political history of Iran some 53 years ago, principles of a crossroad civilizational nation's geopolitics, are strategic and not tactical,they don't change fast, and much. Iran and china have had millennials relationship, both politically and economically based on basically same principals.

Posted by: kooshy | Nov 16 2020 4:24 utc | 70

Framarz @Nov15 11:01 @4

Geopoliticaly, this war was about future trade routes and redefining one of BRI corridors in favour of Turkey. And the cease fire agreement, achieved this.

All the efforts done by Turkey in this war was to achieve a road + railroad connection between Baku and Nackchevan thus having a direct transit between Baku and east Turkey. Before this war, China- Central Asia- West Asia was planned to go through north Iran transit. Now Turkey can connect the ports in Turkmenbashi (Turkmenistan) and Baku (Azarbaijan) and redefine the planned BRI corridor to go through “Turkish Brotherhood Area”.


I think Kooshy is right to ask for further explanation.

Most of us see the Russian-brokered ceasefire as the best outcome as it prevented an expanded conflict.

Iran-Russian relations might've suffered much more if Russia had intervened on behalf of Armenia. There appears to have been a propaganda effort to spark a religious war between Christian Armenia and Shia Azerbaijan which could've led to strains between Russia and Iran.

In that regard, it seems all too convenient that the NK conflict began soon after Russia vowed to sell arms to Iran despite USA-Israeli demands that UN sanctions continue.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 16 2020 5:46 utc | 71

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 16 2020 5:46 utc | 70

Besides all other geopolitical reasons, I mentioned earlier, Iran is the only direct link north south between Russia and Indian ocean, to some point same is also true for China if she is to avoid India, for a land access to PG waters. My question is why would or should Russia and China alienate Iran and eliminate her from silk road? if not trolling, that would need a strong explanation.

Posted by: kooshy | Nov 16 2020 6:22 utc | 72

There are organized attempts mostly directed from outside to muddy or reduce the Iran relation with Russia and China, majority is directed from outside of Iran, organized by Zios paid by Saudis and carried out by MEK. There are also Iranians inside Iran that prefer stronger relation between Iran and west, than Iran’s relation with China or Russia they have their voice, mostly reformers. These attempts are organized mostly on talking points to sow a seed of mistrust among Iranians on Iran’s relation with China and Russia. Basically, is to make Iranians reject and question Iran government’s partnership with Russia and China in resisting western control. Principal of these talking points it is, is not worth the cost for Iran since these countries will sell or stab Iran in the back.

Framarez’ argument was made on the same talking points. he says with this NK ceasefire agreement basically Russia stabbed Iran in the back, and China sold economic partnership with Iran for a new to be build sea land road avoiding Iran, As of result Iran was the loser without any gain, therefore these countries are not to be trusted as partners. This is why I confronted him because is a BS propaganda.

As per Mr. BHADRAKUMAR This agreement was based on Iran’s proposed peace plan and fully approved by Iran, but heeded to be carried out by Russia since Russia had more leverage on Turkey as well as Armenia, plus, Iran should show herself a friendly fair principled neighbor to both of her bordered neighbors, regardless of their religions.

Putin creates conditions for ending bloodshed in Caucasus
https://indianpunchline.com/putin-creates-conditions-for-ending-bloodshed-in-caucasus/

Posted by: kooshy | Nov 16 2020 7:25 utc | 73

Kooshy from my point of view Iran and Russia must have ended up not having much choice (unless something strange is going on) but this does not mean that it isn't bad for both Iran and Russia as well as Armenia, Artsakh, Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Turkey.

Bad but not as bad as not stopping the war.

Thus Framarz adds an interesting point of view. Neither of you or me or anyone here or elsewhere or Indian retired diplomats or English (or Irish?) journalists or whoever has to be right and often no one is.

I don't blame either Russia or Iran for trying to find some acceptable solution despite all imperfections, at least the killing stopped for now.

Anyway yes I believe they all lost and that future events will make it clear. The US and Israel won by creating more room to move for themselves and Turkey, Azerbaijan, Armenia, and Georgia are now full of "easy pickings" for ramping up all sorts of evil, and of course the Russian peacekeepers are targets too.

I think they might have already started the propaganda campaign for "humanitarian intervention" too. Deluded Turkey will be more than happy to act as proxy as well as "bad cop", simultaneously if needed as they did with regard to Syria (both headchopper central and refugee central).

There isn't a single country mentioned that doesn't deserve a better more peaceful world despite some of their governments.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Nov 16 2020 11:29 utc | 74

@ 71 Jackrabbit @ 73 kooshy
Two countries allegedly in alliance with each other doesn’t come with two different solutions to a conflict touching their common sphere of interests. If you go back and read through news and reports, you find this was the case, Iran and Russia had different solutions for this war. Did you got the news and pictures of massive Iranian army colones marching toward borders just before Russian cease-fire was announced?

A war between Christians and Muslims is what Turkey propagated and as usual MSM supported, this propaganda was mostly aimed at Azari population of Iran but Iran had no problems with Armenia. Armenia was and is the natural part of a corridor that can bring Iranian oil and gas to black sea. Mr. BHADRAKUMAR is simply wrong, It wouldn't be in Iran's interest to cut his future corridor to Black sea by offering Turkey a corridor to the Caspian sea.

Have you noticed yourself that when you guys talk north-south passage to the Persian Gulf, your mind sense the traffic from north to south and not traffic in both direction. Why should Russia help export of products to a market already supplied by themselves and instead share the profit with Iran. Why should Turkey and Azerbaijan allow this to happen as they are also servicing part of the same market? For the sake of their Muslim brothers in Iran?

No my friends, the Russian initiative to end the NK conflict was not the best solution for everyone. Let go your fixed ideas and you will be able to discover much more. One should discus geopolitics based on objective facts on the ground and not predefined slogans in own mind.

When all of this is said, of course we need a united front against ZioImperialist hegemony of US war mongers. Let's hope China, Russia and Iran commit to such an alliance with well documented terms, conditions and mechanism available for everyone.

Ps! Kooshy, you started the game of calling names, first I was a troll, then a Zionist (hasbara) and now MEK. Grow up kid, and stop your insults.

Posted by: Framarz | Nov 16 2020 11:35 utc | 75

@ 74 Sunny Runny Burger
Thanks for your input. I think we all should avoid to let our mind be captured by a “believed” world view. The best approach, I believe, is what Marxists do, think dialectic. Identify all pieces of a process and their properties, then put the pieces together and look at the picture.

My picture show Turkey and NATO are the ultimate winners of NK war.
- Russia have to use resources on another hotspot
- Russia have to grant Turkey’s access to central Asia
- Iran lost a lot of potential regarding the BRI
- Iran got much more difficulty regarding the access to Black sea
- Armenians lost territory
- NATO can instrumentalize the Armenian loss to offer Armenia an Oil-Gas-BRI cooperation with Azerbaijan and Turkey, bringing Armenia definitely into own camp

Posted by: Framarz | Nov 16 2020 12:19 utc | 76

Framarz@76

What you write agrees with much of what I had been thinking about the Azerbaijan-Armenian conflict, the recent troubles in Kyrghistan, plus Syria, Belarus and Moldova...That they are all instigated, fostered by NATO/US/CIA and in the case of the first, for sure Israel, in order to complete, achieve two ends:

1. To do another Brzezinski (Afghanistan) on Russia by forcing it to expend its monies on its deployment of its armed forces: Syria, now in and around NK. The intention is to once again so weaken Russia economically that it is reduced to its Yeltsin period and open for the money grubbers. (There is also all of those US airforce flights so close to Russian air space, deliberately provoking Russian air force responses - likely in order for the US/NATO/IS to learn the Russian's warning system data.)

2.And also to further embattle Iran in order to "permit" IS and the US to attack it; or to provoke Iran into a military response that would give the excuse for attacking it; add further economic and political pressure on the Iranian population that those who are (largely the westernized strata, I would imagine) anti- their government structure will rise up and cause huge internal strife and societal breakdown. The hope/intention - however it happens - being that IS can grab what it wants (and the US too)...

Posted by: Anne | Nov 16 2020 13:16 utc | 77

@77 Anne
Anne, In case you are not a native of the region, I'm impressed by the dept of your observations and analysis as an outsider.

Posted by: Framarz | Nov 16 2020 13:42 utc | 78

2:19 utc | 76

Since you unlined,

1- Sorry no. you are wrong, the old Indian diplomat M.K. Bhadrakumar is precisely correct on his analysis so was b on how masterfully Russia’s Putin and Iran ended this war. Without US, France and Minsk group, they no longer have a voice in caucuses.
2- Azerbaijan for foreseeable future is at mercy of Russian forces for control and security of her western boarders. Even if a corridor inside Armenia between 2 Azari parts if ever get built (will never happen) it will be controlled by Russian forces.
3-Azarbijan is not in or part of Central Asia, is part of caucuses, so Turkey’s, or Israels or US access to Central Asia has not changed nor is their access to caucuses changed.
4-Azarbijanies are shia and very religious, they don’t ethnically consider themselves ottoman Turk, but their ruling government is west leaning, is much easier for Iran than Turkey to shakeup things in Azerbaijan if Iran wants and needs to.
5- Naturally and ethnically Azaries are much more important to Iran and her security, that is why Iran SL came out and defended Azari position for the return of NK to Azerbaijan. Yes, they tried to stir up things inside Iran between Iran’s ethnic Azari and Pars, and inside Russia;s Muslims bordering Azerbaijan, but it didn’t work since Iran and Russia took a legal (UN approved) and right position for an armistice. At the end they kicked out the Minsk group out of this conflict. Now, since that didn’t work well, the new talking point is Iran lost since BRI, and silk road is gone. Bull Shit .
6-Russia having its Muslim rebellious provinces bordered with Azerbaijan, as much as Iran don’t want and will not let Turkey/NATO to have control on Azerbaijan, regardless of Azari Government.
7-Israeli, Saudi, US they have similar interest and close cooperation on destabilizing Iran, (and Russia), all three support and train MEK, therefore Zio Hasbara and MEK are of same trolls, mostly with same draw up talking points. I have 20 years of experience refuting their propagandas, Iran bashing on internet. Usually they become more active on blogs before possibility of a new policy implementation. You are making same negative talking points on NK war, (which is reversing the outcome) that I have noticed started up in this past few days.
8-Not only here on this blog, all of sudden “Zios” are trying to reverse Putin’s masterful resolution of NK war. Which was resolved with minimum cost to Russia and Iran.

Posted by: kooshy | Nov 16 2020 14:05 utc | 79

Just prepping up the crowd to bomb iran

Posted by: gary | Nov 16 2020 14:21 utc | 80

Framarz

=
- Russia have to use resources on another hotspot

It would've been much more costly if Russia and Iran were drawn into a war.

=
- Russia have to grant Turkey’s access to central Asia

Turkey already had "access" but now has strengthened that access with trade through Azerbaijan.

=
- Iran lost a lot of potential regarding the BRI

Iran can still ship via Caspian Sea which is linked to the Black Sea via the Volga-Don Canal. And if the Eurasia Canal is built, oil/gas tanker traffic will be much more efficient/practical.

=
- Iran got much more difficulty regarding the access to Black sea

Iran can ship via Turkey or Russia. Turkey's competition makes it more likely that the Eurasia Canal is built.

=
- Armenians lost territory

Yeah.

=
- NATO can instrumentalize the Armenian loss to offer Armenia an Oil-Gas-BRI cooperation with Azerbaijan and Turkey, bringing Armenia definitely into own camp

Yeah, but Georgia loses too by disuse of the Lapis Lazuli Corridor. Russia and Armenia can press on that sore spot. And maybe discontented Armenians will act to disrupt Azeri-Turk trade?

Bottom line: Turkey's gains are somewhat uncertain.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 16 2020 14:26 utc | 81

"Armenians lost territory"

really? that territory legally based on 4 UN resolution didn't belong to Armenia, still, whatever parts under this agreement Armenians will hold on to is not Armenian territory, it was a an occupied territory belonging to Azerbaijan, UN resolutions that Russia didn't veto, Therefore why would Iran and for that matter Russia care which of two states control NK?
why should they allow Nato/ Turkey use this ongoing dispute to destabilize their neighbourhood, if they can take a simple legal position to force Armenia to return an internationally recognized land belonging to Azerbaijan. Explain why this solution was so bad for Russia and Iran? what is and was the cost for Iran? nothing. It was to made to force Iran take a position that make disturbances inside Iran's Azari ethnicities that didn't happen.

Posted by: kooshy | Nov 16 2020 14:37 utc | 82

War outcome? Turkey, Soros and Israel for ever lost Armenia (electricity and gas supplied by Iran) to Russia and Iran.
Iran's international border with Armenia has not changed an inch, with major rail connection at Jolfa and through Armenia as before to Georgia and black sea all the same no changes.
None of Iran's borders or positions was changed as of this war, Azerbaijan is holding to more of its legal territory bordering Iran. There is a new north south Rail finishing this year that connects iran to Azerbaijan and Russia, I know for fact Azerbaijan's most of imports from south Asia/China still comes and is transported through Iranian PG ports, that is why the rail connection is being built and finishing in next few months.

Posted by: kooshy | Nov 16 2020 14:53 utc | 83

Here is where and why Framarz pushed his comment,

No change in Iran’s territorial borders: Foreign Ministry

The Foreign Ministry has roundly rejected rumors about any change in Iran’s territorial borders under a conflict settlement process between Azerbaijan and Armenia over the Nagorno-Karabakh region.
“Our borders will neither be touched nor will we allow anyone to touch them,” ministry spokesman Saeed Khatibzadeh told a press briefing held via video conference on Monday.
Clarifying the matter, he said Armenia is only expected to start hosting “a simple transit route,” whose whereabouts is yet to be decided on. "Any talks about the corridor are certain to involve the Islamic Republic," the official asserted.
“The Islamic Republic is located in the artery that is crossed by many transit pathways. It is aware of its geopolitical position, and has been trying to help its friends benefit from this position,” Khatibzadeh noted.
The spokesman also hailed a Russia-mediated ceasefire agreement that was signed between Baku and Yerevan earlier in the month, saying it enjoys “serious overlaps” with Tehran’s proposal for resolution of the decades-long dispute over Nagorno-Karabakh.
http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2020/11/16/638706/Iran-borders-Azerbaijan-Armenia-Saudi-Arabia-United-States-sanctions

Posted by: kooshy | Nov 16 2020 15:14 utc | 84

kooshy

Good point! NK wasn't actually Armenian territory.

So Armenia didn't lose territory. Some Armenians lost possession of territory they claimed.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 16 2020 16:08 utc | 85

@ 84 kooshy

I wish we had this discussion under the NK thread (now archived) instead of here where no one would find different, not presented before. viewpoints about this issue.

I’m not going to repeat the chain of my arguments again, everyone can read and judge as it fit however the last piece about Khatibzadeh's clarification deserves a reply. I invite you to consider the following:

- Khatibzadeh’s clarification was not caused by US/Israeli/Turkish claims that Iran has lost it’s borders with Armenia. He owed a clarification to the Iranian society because part of Iranian academics accused Rouhani government of not defending national interests. here the Persian text

- Khatibzadeh is the spokesman of Rouhani new-liberal government. Those who initiated and pushed the signing of the traitorous JCPOA agreement. This faction of Iranian power hierarchy (now administrating the government) is not a fan of East-Friendship, they are supporters of West-Friendship. They are not nationalists like Ahmadinejad, they are technocrats and liberals like Rafsanjani. If you would look for an Iranian traitor a la Nikol Pashaniyan, without a doubt the right candidate would come from this faction. (fine details, you can not know about without expertise in Iranian inner politics)

- before the cease-fire agreement Azerbaijanis and Turks would chose the shortest transit for trade and logistics with each other, meaning that they had to use Iran as transit. This will not be the case in near future. Technically Khatibzadeh is right, Iran lost no borders with Armenia, but in fact Iran lost the transit between Turkey and Azerbaijan, and this is just the beginning and immediate outcome of many consequences to follow, which are of no importance to Khatibzadeh and the faction he spoke for. This faction indeed would be very happy to be considered as a NATO associated partner if US and Zionists recognize them as loyal servants. Signing of the JCPOA by them was the proof.

Posted by: Framarz | Nov 16 2020 16:38 utc | 86

@ 85 Jackrabbit
How about I extend your logic to the Republic of South Ossetia. Are you a supporter of giving it back to Georgia under current circumstances because it's Georgian territory?

Posted by: Framarz | Nov 16 2020 17:07 utc | 87

Re the Ethiopian civil war and the alleged Eritrean intervention on the side of the Ethiopian government:

Let's be very clear: anyone smeared by the Westernaganda as an "unhinged dictator" and his country called "Africa's North Korea" cannot be a bad guy. If you don't know who I'm talking about, that's Isaias Afwerki of Eritrea. Now Eritrea lost tens of thousands of people, both soldiers and civilians, fighting off the Meles Zenawi TPLF regime aggression from 1998 that only formally ended after the fall of the TPLF regime in 2018. There is absolutely no way Eritrea is ever going to permit another TPLF regime to take power in Ethiopia again. If that means allying with Afwerki's new bosom buddy Abiy Ahmed and intervening on the Ethiopian government side, so be it. It wouldn't be surprising for the Eritreans to intervene against the TPLF; after what Eritrea underwent at the hands of the TPLF regime, it would be astonishing if it did not.

I notice that the Ethiopian tactics are the same as those followed by the Azeris in Nagorno Karabakh: attack the lowlands, cut off the mountainous enemy strongholds from resupply and reinforcement, and then attrition them to defeat. Though the TPLF is a lot stronger than the so called Artsakh army, with Eritrea on the Ethiopian side I believe that the TPLF's fate will be the same.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Nov 16 2020 18:41 utc | 88

Framarz per meaning of your name you are “over the border” of understanding the region.
Read M.k.s and b s analysis on this issue on your brake in cafe Tirana, you have nothing to add, except you exposed your bias, claiming Armenia has the right to the UN declared illegal occupied territory same way as you probably believe Israel has the right to internationally recognized occupied territory she illegally holds. Again as mentioned Iran and Russia didn’t bite the poison pill of totally backing Armenia, they solved this possible destabilizing war to a rest for now.

At the end of the day you know who’s cost of wars is going up by minute? Turkey, like KSA in multiple theaters. Turkey now is fighting in Yemen, Syria, Azerbaijan Cyprus, Greece, Turkey was supposed to be no problems with nighbour s country, nevertheless is nice being busy with wars and disputes, in mean time Turkish lire is going down to SH, although Turkey unlike Iran is not sanctioned. Coming outcomes are not going to be any better for Israel or US in the region, specially if US be forced to reduce exposure.

Posted by: Kooshy | Nov 16 2020 18:48 utc | 89

Thanks for your words Kooshy and your efforts in dispelling the bullshit that pops up in the comments. Your critics reveal themselves.

Posted by: tucenz | Nov 16 2020 20:01 utc | 90

@ 89 kooshy
You have been provided with enough facts about this issue, just take your time to digest. Learn not to insult dissidents, it's a basic rule by exchang of ideas and arguments.

Posted by: Framarz | Nov 16 2020 20:21 utc | 91

Kooshy and Anne and b

Thank you for your contributions in this thread. It has been a great read and analysis by all.

Thank you Framarz for setting the background to reveal the Israel/USA mendacity at play. Erdoghan is such a low life tool of the west. I appreciate the way the Russians and Iranians used his asinine ego to render a great favour for Azerbaijan and simultaneously 'save' Armenia from the slaughter. That is aikido at its best.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 16 2020 20:57 utc | 92

“ Khatibzadeh is the spokesman of Rouhani new-liberal government. Those who initiated and pushed the signing of the traitorous JCPOA agreement. “
“This faction of Iranian power hierarchy (now administrating the government) is not a fan of East-Friendship, they are supporters of West-Friendship. “

So Faramarz you believe JCPOA or Iran deal was a traitorous agreement, There are two groups of Iranians that are against JCPOA. There are the hardliners inside of Iran that support the system but not the government, and the group are the Israeli centric MEK or Shah ideologues supporters. These two groups both hate JCPOA, but they differ on other policies.
The hardliners in Iran are fierce supporters of “look to the east “ future, and believe Iran should be leaning to China and Russia for security and economy, they also fiercely support the revolution and Islamic republic. Besides they are not complaining on SL supported NK Russian peace plan, and unlike you don’t think China is diverting its Silk Road to avoid Iran.

Now if that is the case I was correct, you must be a Israel, MEK ideologue troll that not only don’t like and not supporting JCPOA they hate Iran dealing with China and Russia specially on security issues, since they believe the chines and Russian support will endure current Islamic system in Iran. Per your comments you are of this second kind not only against JCPOA but you think China and Russia are not to be trusted. You are a troll

Posted by: Kooshy | Nov 16 2020 21:06 utc | 93

@92 uncle tungsten
Your welcome uncle tungsten, I lacked input from you and couple of others in this discussion, I find your comments often right on the point and enjoy reading them.

Posted by: Framarz | Nov 16 2020 21:42 utc | 94

@ 93 kooshy
While you still trying to find out if I should be sorted under simple Troll, Hasbara agent, MEK terrorist or Monarchist category, I give you the last lesson of the day, free of charge.

Don’t use Hardliner-Reformer labelling system when you discuss Iranian politics. It’s a ZioImperialist labelling system promoted by MSM (also in active use by part of the power hierarchy in Iran). The trick behind it is to label west oriented political forces as reformers and everyone else as hardliner.
For instance western opinion put Ahmadinejad and his faction in “hardliner” category together with the Theocrats (Ayatollahs), ignoring the fact that Rouhani government (Technocrats) came to power after Theocracy denounced Ahmadinejad and prohibit his faction from taking part in the presidential elections. (disqualifications by Shuraye-Negahban).
A more exact and scientific way of identifying different factions of power hierarchy in Iran would be:
Technocracy – Theocracy – Nationalists

Posted by: Framarz | Nov 16 2020 22:15 utc | 95

You can call the group you associate yourself with whatever you like zioimperlislist is fine with me and becoming .the point of exercise was to expose your bias which you did expose yourself. By being against JCPOA and also against Look to The east vision circulating in Iranian pro system hardliners, there is only one group conforming to these views against JCPOA and look to east, that is the exiled zioimpeialist as you like to me they are Israel butt leaker traitors. The rest of garbage you wrote here as ia as is called in Persian ust “pussy poetry” and not realistic analysis. Or worth debating.

Posted by: Kooshy | Nov 16 2020 22:34 utc | 96

Sorry guys “pussy poetry” in common daily Persian equates to bullshit talk

Posted by: Kooshy | Nov 16 2020 22:42 utc | 97

Kooshy @Nov16 22:42 #97

"pussy poetry

Is this essentially what we could call "pillow talk"?

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 16 2020 23:01 utc | 98

Still nothing from H.Schmatz / Finian Cunningham.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 16 2020 23:03 utc | 99

Sorry guys “pussy poetry” in common daily Persian equates to bullshit talk
Posted by: Kooshy | Nov 16 2020 22:42 utc | 97
Say, Kooshy, I always thought it meant “pussy AND poetry.”
Kos-O-She’r. Please advise.

Barflies, please forgive me for my language.

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | Nov 16 2020 23:40 utc | 100

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