Open Thread 2020-86
News & views ...
Posted by b on October 28, 2020 at 18:39 UTC | Permalink
« previous page | next page »Posted by: Debsisdead | Oct 30 2020 1:35 utc | 196
Totally agree with you. The Democrats need to be brought so low they vanish from the political landscape and a new party emerges. The same can now be said of the Labour Party in the UK. I wonder how expelling that troublesome priest Corbyn will have on the membership. Maybe it's the best think for those working on creating an alternative to Labour. As they say, careful what you wish for. Meanwhile in Canuck land, everything just keeps on rolling, corruption and lies. Maybe we Canadians are far too polite. Sorry if I offended anyone. (joke)
Posted by: Tom | Oct 30 2020 2:13 utc | 202
@ Posted by: Debsisdead | Oct 30 2020 1:35 utc | 196
The problem with your thesis is the far-right calculates the Left won't have a second chance if Trump is reelected:
Why It’s Important for Trump to Win
Riots are sure to exceed the violence that occurred after the 2016 election and the riots of this past summer, and continue for long thereafter [Trump's reelection]. Attempts to shut them down, especially by the feds would likely look a lot like civil war — a civil war that I think the right would win at this point. But the longer this thing festers, the less likely that becomes.
re vk #200 who lapped up then spewed oput:
"The problem with your thesis is the far-right calculates the Left won't have a second chance if Trump is reelected:"
If that is the case, something I have yet to see actual evidence of other than beatups in pro-right propaganda, there is no chance of the dems ever reforming cos they have absolutely no incentive to do any such thing if biden/harris wins.
Posted by: Debsisdead | Oct 30 2020 3:02 utc | 204
re vk #200 who lapped up then spewed oput:
"The problem with your thesis is the far-right calculates the Left won't have a second chance if Trump is reelected:"
If that is the case, something I have yet to see actual evidence of other than beatups in pro-right propaganda, there is no chance of the dems ever reforming cos they have absolutely no incentive to do any such thing if biden/harris wins.
Posted by: Debsisdead | Oct 30 2020 3:02 utc | 205
One of the prepper dudes I follow on Youtube - Canadian Prepper - has another of his "overview videos" of what might happen and "what it all means".
One of his points I thought applied here at the bar was "do your own research". He (ironically) discusses that listening to random guys on Youtube or wherever - referring to himself as "some knucklehead" - is not research. He also references Selco Begovic (although he gets the country wrong, it's Bosnia, not Serbia) as to why preppers aren't actually hoping for SHTF to occur because if it does occur, it's going to be horrific and no one is going to be the one guy who survives. His main point is that things have an excellent chance of getting worse for many reasons and people need to be prepared. He discusses a lot of ways that could happen - the loss of arctic ice impact, the election, upcoming pandemic lockdowns, China vs Taiwan, flareups in Europe, failure to resolve racial issues in the US, etc.
Worth the 35 minutes. This guy is not an academician, but he's not stupid, either.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Oct 30 2020 3:28 utc | 206
@vk (190)
Russia ready to work with any new US administration — Putin
I could remember Putin and/or someone else in the Kremlin saying years ago that the USA was "not agreement capable", and around a week or two ago Lavrov announced that dialogue with the West (presumably including the USA) might end. Why this all of a sudden?
Posted by: joey_n | Oct 30 2020 3:59 utc | 207
Jackrabbit @Oct 30 0:05 #189
Correction: The target government is beset with difficulties.
!!
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 30 2020 4:02 utc | 208
@ oldhippie | Oct 29 2020 21:21 utc | 171
Yep. Probably no need to remind MOA readers that for decades our 'Stasi' FBI has been running various flavors of that same old *paid* agent provocateur(AP)/confidential informant(CI) "synthetic terror" set up plots against groups/movements, to generate attention-grabbing headlines and mold public opinion/attitudes against the targeted movement, and in the directions desired at the time by power-holding elites in the country.
Sounds like you got snagged by the circa 1975-1982 Red/Moaist sleeper cell Threat campaign. Chairman Bob sounds like the prototypical FBI groomed, charismatic leader/AP, and from his Wikipedia it appears that his later years have been quite kind to him.
Many other domestic groups and movements have been similarly targeted using the AP/CI setup blueprint: Black rights and Black power/separatist groups (1960's-1980's, antiwar movements, animal welfare (anti-animal testing/factory farming) activists and eco-activist movements, aka "eco-terrorists" (search: Eric McDavid case, "Anna", for a well-documented classic example of a cynical and predatory AP setup of naïve/gullible stoner late teens-early 20s yr olds' as part of an FBI campaign to dirty up the public image and destroy growing support for the anti-old growth logging/Green movement in the Pacific Northwest 1995-2005 (See Green is the New Red, Wm Potter)).
Then of course their were all the "muslim sleeper cell" terror plots (Lackawanna Six, Liberty City Seven ("We will bomb stuff for Air Jordan sneakers") , Cleveland Five ("bridge bomb plot" 2012) and numerous others, set up during the Mueller and Comey FBI directorships.
Now we see the the FBI's latest effort following this pattern under Director Wray: the politically tinged, (and timed right before the election) plot of scary right-wing [obviously Trump-loving] militia/separatists to kidnap the Democratic Governor of Michigan, Gretchen Whitmer[who Trump obviously hates].
But when we read the FBI charging affidavit, we learn FBI used *two paid* informants (called "confidential human sources (CHS), in the charging document) who FBI discloses it has already paid ~$25,000 so far.
But *now* (10 days later) it is being reported that:
So it sounds like the FBI is *still* doing their old politically motivated AP/CI terror plot tricks.
Posted by: gm | Oct 30 2020 4:54 utc | 209
Called it here in March/April:
40 Dead, Now 40 Laid Off: Inside a Nursing Home in Crisis
They came to work when death counts were horrific and the risks enormous. Now they fear for their jobs. At one home, they agreed to speak out.
I told you the Anglo-Saxon countries, with their culture of exiling their parents when they're old, resulted in the creation of true banquets for the COVID-19: nursing homes. The fact that their workers are precarious only made things even worse.
It was just a matter of some whistleblowers coming out. They did so because they lost something even more precious to them than the lives of those elders: their jobs.
Sooo glad that we all were treated to the covidiot conversation that should have been done via direct message rather than taking up soooo much space in the MoA open thread comments.
To those of you COVID deniers who just got told to work from home (first world problems indeed as vk stated - be glad you still have a job and live in a socialized democracy!) why don't you book a cruise? If the virus is a big fraud, go find yourselves a nice Norwegian cruise and enjoy the Northern Lights without a mask or any above normal hand washing, sanitizing or avoidance of face touching. I'm sure it will all be just fine!
Be sure to let us know when you get back safely and bon voyage!
Posted by: _K_C_ | Oct 30 2020 6:22 utc | 211
President Donald Trump: "We'll be the first nation to land an astronaut on Mars."
Rally attendee: "Make it Nancy Pelosi!"
Posted by: Mao | Oct 30 2020 6:32 utc | 212
Biden, a leading voice for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer rights as vice president under Barack Obama from 2009 to 2017, also pledged in an interview with the Philadelphia Gay News to expand queer rights internationally by making equality a centerpiece of U.S. diplomacy if he assumes office in January.
Although he has championed the Equality Act before, his priority is significant, given the urgency of the coronavirus pandemic and a host of other executive orders and regulatory actions that would compete for attention in the early days of a Biden administration.
Posted by: Mao | Oct 30 2020 6:34 utc | 213
Here’s a webpage with links to articles and video featuring
Joe Biden - War & Peace & Election 2020:
https://progressivepodcast.org/page/joe-biden-war-election-2020-progressive-podcast.html
It’s a subpage of the site: https://progressivepodcast.org
which was started long ago to take on the Iraq War.
The site features war & peace issues (mostly) with an emphasis on critique from progressive / left / realist / libertarian / real conservative viewpoints. It is mostly links to articles and video by others. If you have a suggestion for especially good content of this type feel free to pass it on, see email address at bottom of webpage.
Here’s the current header paragraph for the Biden page:
There are good reasons to support Joe Biden. It’s understandable that someone might vote for Joe based on specific issues that are important to them. However, there is no good reason to not try to learn a bit about Joe’s history with regard to issues of war & peace - it is a top responsibility of the President after all. This information has generally been absent from the main stream media and the debates. Joe Biden held key positions of responsibility in the US government during numerous US military actions, including Iraq, Libya, Syria and Yemen. These military actions could reasonably be considered wars of aggression and a neutral observer might fairly wonder why Joe is being considered for US president rather than being tried for war crimes. Regardless of the outcome of the elections, U.S. citizens should call for accountability from their leaders, better information from the media and an end to wars of aggression.
You will find information and alternative viewpoints regarding the issue of war & peace herein.
Posted by: Progralien | Oct 30 2020 7:11 utc | 214
Open threads have gone to the birds. It's just free for all American politics and Trump bashing/Trump coddling. Nobody with a conscience can say rightfully that there is ANYONE here defending or promoting Biden, but Trump gets all sorts of endorsements and favorable statements. My daughter voted for Howie Hawkins yesterday. I encourage all right wingers of MoA to go watch a few Hawkins speeches or webcast appearances. He's FAR more authentic than Trump the phony clown. He's FAR more liberal and leftist than Joe Biden the right-of-center Delaware corporation beneficiary. But all we hear and see is that Trump "hasn't started any new wars YET" blah blah blah. Even erstwhile pacifists, civil libertarians and leftists like Gruff have to admit that (not saying he - wait - THEY - gotta be careful about pronouns) is all three, but he's surely in one of those categories at least on some or most issues. Literally nobody on this site is saying "Yay! Vote for Biden." or getting in peoples' faces in public and screaming "BIIIIIDEN!" like Trump fans do for their Dear Leader. But the non-stop whining and pearl clutching comments about how COVID is fake news and Biden is evil incarnate but no mention of Trump are totally free from moderation. And watch, now some idiot will invariably accuse me of asking MoA for censorship or liberal fascism. Such is the sad state of the American intellect.
And once again, I leave you with this: https://crimethinc.com/2020/10/04/preparing-for-electoral-unrest-and-a-right-wing-power-grab-an-analysis
Sorry if it broke the page for you Apple phone users.
Posted by: _K_C_ | Oct 30 2020 7:19 utc | 215
K_C_ | Oct 30 2020 7:19 utc | 212
"Nobody with a conscience can say rightfully that there is ANYONE here defending or promoting Biden Literally nobody on this site is saying "Yay! Vote for Biden."
Poor little dear, how did you miss the posts of your fellow Dembot Circe?
"the non-stop whining and pearl clutching"
You're the one who's so pathetic you feel the desperate need to clamp a second diaper over your face because your usual one no longer gives you enough sense of security and comfort. Poor little thing.
K_C_ | Oct 30 2020 7:19 utc | 212
Why do you all have to bring up Circe so often? Is it like the exception proves the rule to your logic-free addled brains?
Yes, she's incredibly annoying, but obviously I triggered you. Why is that?
You're the one who's so pathetic you feel the desperate need to clamp a second diaper over your face because your usual one no longer gives you enough sense of security and comfort. Poor little thing.
Yeah, and your birth certificate was an apology from the condom factory. Do either of our statements get anyone any nearer to addressing the actual issues I raised?
Posted by: _K_C_ | Oct 30 2020 7:38 utc | 217
@Russ
What's your current living and recreational situation? Been to any crowded beaches, bars or on a cruise? Let's hear it. If you refuse to wear a "second diaper" (good analogy since what spills out of your mouth and onto the keyboard, other than spittle, is pure verbal diarrhea) when you're in an enclosed space densely packed with strangers and which utilizes recirculating air? I mean seriously where TF do you live and let's hear your own personal approach to prophylaxis against an AEROSOL spreading virus since Norwegian has been remarkably and conveniently unforthcoming on actual details. Yeah we're all aware that his boss said don't use the coffee machine (LOL) but how much interaction do YOU actually have with other humans, tough guy?
Posted by: _K_C_ | Oct 30 2020 7:43 utc | 218
@_K_C_
You're not triggering anyone...you're shitting all over the thread.
You wanna call people 'covidiot'? Put up some data. It is incumbent upon those who wish to order us to 'do something' to provide the proof. So far, it's only been hysterical screaming at bullshit case counts.
Put up or shut up!
Posted by: Dr Wellington Yueh | Oct 30 2020 7:44 utc | 219
Put up some data.
Data? Hahahaha OK.
How's this for you mask denying morons? Liberty denying masks prevent the spread!!!
Dr Wellington...what kind of doctor are you? Share your credentials and not just your "education."
Posted by: _K_C_ | Oct 30 2020 7:49 utc | 220
Shitting on the thread, Dr? LMFAO I have made four posts max. Norwegian and Russell took up literally a whole page of 100 comments.
And you're not a doctor at all, in any sense. Using a "Dune" character name. How pathetic.
Posted by: _K_C_ | Oct 30 2020 7:52 utc | 221
Oh, I'm not a doctor...don't make that mistake.
Proof that masks work in some capacity is useless. Prove that this germ is Captain Trips. Prove to all your enthralled readers the reason why we should wear masks. Where is the death? Have you seen anyone die of this germ? Bleeding crystallized lung out of their ears dying? Do you even know anyone who has died? Anyone who has been seriously incapacitated (6 months of snotty lung does not count)?
Posted by: Dr Wellington Yueh | Oct 30 2020 7:54 utc | 222
Have you seen anyone die of this germ?
YES. I have. A great friend who would have fought hard for you, me, or anyone of any political persuasion that he loved. He had diabetes and was recently diagnosed with brain cancer, but there was no need for him to die of this. (my beloved father lives in the same town and he's also immune compromised)
https://www.ktsm.com/news/chapin-hs-teacher-dies-while-visiting-family-in-chihuahua/
Posted by: _K_C_ | Oct 30 2020 7:58 utc | 223
And there you have it. Tragic, but he was already on his way out. When you're trying to belittle us and shame us, going for the feels is a really shitty move.
Posted by: Dr Wellington Yueh | Oct 30 2020 8:00 utc | 224
Dr Wellington Yueh | Oct 30 2020 7:54 utc | 219
So that we can level set and all be on the same page, so to speak. You think that COVID-19 is just a total fake news item foisted on us by the neoliberal mainstream corporate media and the deep state, right? And that it's all fake. Like literally no worse than ANOTHER seasonal flu added to the ones we already get, correct?
Posted by: _K_C_ | Oct 30 2020 8:02 utc | 225
"Tragic, but he was already on his way out."
Just as are and were many already on their "way out" due to flu, I take it is your position on the matter. It's OK. Embrace being a sociopath who comments anonymously under the handle of "DOCTOR" (albeit only in a crummy Sci-Fi sense) and has absolutely no skin in the game either by way of a comment history here or a professional reputation. You fit right in with losers like Russ and Norwegian.
Posted by: _K_C_ | Oct 30 2020 8:05 utc | 226
Hey keep the noise down !
See this is what you get when you allow the right wing a platform.
Debisisdead I didn’t know you were a trump supporter, I’m shocked,why do you punch down not up ?
Russ/puss you need a gag not a mask ! Your a dam ‘Typhoid Mary’
Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 30 2020 8:05 utc | 227
K_C_ | Oct 30 2020 7:43 utc | 215
You're an extremely confused person with zero understanding of we who have remained sane and rational. Get it straight - we who know there's no special "pandemic" going on and who therefore reject your wingnut cult go about our lives as before. Anyplace I went before I still go, without a mask nor with any attention to hex spacing. If someone wants to shake my hand I do. If someone wants to hug me and I want to hug her I do. If I wanted to go on a cruise and had the money I'd go - as long as masks and the rest of that crap were NOT required.
I assure you, the only things I've avoided since this mass insanity took off are things I've avoided because of imbecile wingnuts like you. I've avoided literally nothing because of the mild covid itself.
Posted by: Russ | Oct 30 2020 8:06 utc | 225
JAJAJA and yet ZERO specifics. Like no clue at all where you go, where you live or what you do. Look bro - I'm not trying to dox you at all. If you were in Barcelona, Seattle or Hong Kong I wouldn't care or try to find anything out about you. But you're being so generic as to be laughable. Wingnuts OK yeah, right. I've been reading this blog since Billmon closed. Were you a Bush/Cheney warmonger? You're FULL of shit man. Unless you're on some island, you're lying and I want video evidence of this walking around shaking hands and refusing to wear a mask becuz LIBEEERTEEZ. Sorry man, don't buy it for a second unless you're in a community of 1,000 people or less or just a selfish sociopath that nobody likes.
Posted by: _K_C_ | Oct 30 2020 8:11 utc | 229
Wow, you read a lot of propaganda into what I didn't even say.
I guess I have to say this, just like every other poor schlub who gets labeled 'denier'.
QUALIFICATION: real germ, slightly worse than flu
That said, your hysteria is giving weight to the opportunistic political response to what is basically this year's flavor of flu.
You want me and everyone else to mask up? Are you willing to compensate when folks get bacterial lung infections? Will you comfort my wife, whose gentle face turned to pizza after a few extended masked trips to the market? Will you provide counseling to all the children who will grow up not trusting anyone?
What if your friend had caught a common cold? What if dengue fever or malaria? What if it was just another flu germ? Hepatitis? A bacterial infection from a hospital visit? Any of these will more easily kill someone with comorbidities. Do we ignore these and just concentrate on the C?
And where do you stand? What is this germ to you? How do you see it killing you? Describe in excruciating detail the chain of events that leads to you catching a fatal case of C. Detail is very important.
Posted by: Dr Wellington Yueh | Oct 30 2020 8:13 utc | 230
I don't comment anonymously. I've made it crystal clear in previous posts who I am. To prove it:
My name is Thomas James Kenney. What's yours?
Posted by: Dr Wellington Yueh | Oct 30 2020 8:15 utc | 231
turned to PIZZA after a quick trip to the market where she only had to wear a mask indoors?? What kind of noxious gasses do you and your lizard person wife breathe into these masks, "Dr" Wellington?
Posted by: _K_C_ | Oct 30 2020 8:15 utc | 232
Kyle. And yes, you do comment anonymously. You've been doing so under the moniker of Dr Wellington Yeuh for the last hour or more.
Posted by: _K_C_ | Oct 30 2020 8:17 utc | 233
I've been posting under that moniker at this site since before Whiskey Bar died. That moniker is used by myself at numerous websites, and I've never made bones about trying to hide my real identity.
Kyle what?
Posted by: Dr Wellington Yueh | Oct 30 2020 8:19 utc | 234
Subpoena b for it bro. I'm not playing that game. You're the one using a medical physician sounding moniker to make absolute bullshit claims, not me. Do you have a PhD? Of any kind? Are you a medical doctor? You haven't been posting under that name since jack shit. You're a total liar. Give me a link to any of your comments prior to 2015 and maybe I'll believe you.
Posted by: _K_C_ | Oct 30 2020 8:21 utc | 235
@_K_C_ | Oct 30 2020 6:22 utc | 208
Thank you, and Bon Voyage to you too in the Branch Covidians.
Posted by: Norwegian | Oct 30 2020 8:23 utc | 236
Like I said...I am not a doctor. My reasons for using that name are personal, and I don't have to justify that to anyone. Any attempt to ridicule me for using a nick will fall like water off a duck's back.
Call me out for posting anonymously, then you chicken out? Gawd, what a piece of work you are.
Posted by: Dr Wellington Yueh | Oct 30 2020 8:24 utc | 237
Thanks K C
A timely bit of sanity from you.
Trouble is these disgusting pro virus genicidal thugs don’t listen. They are pro mass death, becouse they think as exceptionals the world belongs to them —— the master race !
I e - fascists.
Vote trump get a blood bath in America.
Typical bully’s dismal failures abroad, so turning there hate on their fellow American !
Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 30 2020 8:24 utc | 238
@mark mark:
Vote trump get a blood bath in America.
Equating rationality with being a Trump supporter is a bad look. I don't suppose you checked, but there were a few more than 2 names in that pres column, eh?
Posted by: Dr Wellington Yueh | Oct 30 2020 8:26 utc | 239
Nice to hear from you Norwegian. But I have to note that you didn't actually answer any of my questions.
Posted by: _K_C_ | Oct 30 2020 8:27 utc | 240
"Call me out for posting anonymously, then you chicken out? Gawd, what a piece of work you are."
Do you have any proof that you were posting at the original whiskey bar? Like just a handle would suffice. Anything. Give it up. Would LOVE to see that I'm talking to someone who is what he says he is for a change.
Posted by: _K_C_ | Oct 30 2020 8:29 utc | 241
@Dr Wellington Yueh | Oct 30 2020 7:44 utc | 216
Yes, you are correct: Those who are claiming to be very afraid of a supposed virus and who are insisting that the rest of the world must be even more afraid, they have the burden of proof on their shoulders.
The null hypothesis has not been falsified.
Posted by: Norwegian | Oct 30 2020 8:30 utc | 242
Reading comprehension failure. Why the fuck would I have to prove that I posted at a defunct site when that wasn't even my assertion? Also, I probably did use that nick at Whiskey Bar.
Did you guys expect that there would be no replies if you tried this shit in the middle of the night?
Posted by: Dr Wellington Yueh | Oct 30 2020 8:32 utc | 243
159# Mina.
In 2011,to bring down Khadafi,the biggest contingent so called "rebels for democracy"were from Tunisia.In the years following thousands of petty criminals and youngsters out of work left France for Syria,Erdogan let them pass and France turned the blind-eye.Then minister of Foreign Affairs Laurent Fabius made a statement that al-Nosra did a good job in Syria ,and Bashar al Assad had no right to live on earth.This criminal is now the head of the constitutional council.
All that pertains to those third generation youth from muslim origins is flawed.When they are convicted,they turn out to be released after not even one third of their sentence.They are very often classified "S" for being a threat to national security,but never really on surveillance.When held in Kurdish prisons,the french say they should be on trial in France.ONG's pushing to repatriate those criminals and their families.
The hard part now is to learn to discern whether an islamist attack is a fake, or staged real event on the one hand,or some person acting on his own behalf.Never forget that although those guys attack "la République",they never even try to hit government officials,apart from the odd police officer.
For years ,the alfabet services have been filling Europe with scum,to use them and create a war between autochtone french dumbheads,and imported would-be muslims dumbheads.Media and government taking position to help this happen.
But they never talk about the fact that an international islam-conference has condemned wahhabism and its output as an heresy to Islam.Why?Because Nato-governments have secret agreements with the MuslimBrotherhood,and in France even on a local level.Remeber the presence of MB in the Obama cabinet.
That is why I have a hard time believing this Erdogan-Macron is not a piece of theatre.
Macron is still pushing those miserable drawings as the summum of freedom of expression.He just won't understand that there's thouèsands of other ways to promote freedom of speech.
I'm really shocked that public opinion,if I read comments in french outlets,are so full of hatred and despise.It is as of the lid's gone of,and people who were already easy to manipulate are going full-throttle on supporting anti-islamic measures.The mayor of Nice,an ancient Sarkozy minister,who is very well connected in Israel has stated that the actual laws are not enough to combat islamism,although they have been modified over twenty times the last decennium.
Guess it's the same in the USA,where the Patriot Act isn't a n election issue neither.Sick and tired of all this.
Posted by: willie | Oct 30 2020 8:58 utc | 244
Dr Wellington Yueh | Oct 30 2020 8:13 utc | 227
"Will you provide counseling to all the children who will grow up not trusting anyone?"
The mass psychological torture of children designed deliberately to destroy their lives is by itself a Nuremburg level crime against humanity which all pro-lockdown impresarios, enforcers and propagandists must be made to answer for.
Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 29 2020 0:47 utc | 63 -- "Meanwhile, China eliminated extreme poverty for the first time in its very long history and is on the verge of poverty's complete elimination by the end of next year."
At the rate China is going, all those poverty-eradication deadlines will be more than met.
As illustration, it takes them just 9 days to assemble one A320 plane, and they have been doing that non-stop for the last 12 years, delivering 500 planes, all for Chinese airline customers.
Excerpt from xinhuanet: "Airbus has delivered the 500th A320 family aircraft from its Final Assembly Line Asia (FALA) in north China's Tianjin Municipality, Airbus China announced Thursday. The A320neo airplane was delivered to China Southern Airlines, a leading airline carrier in the country. In 2008, a joint venture of the A320 final assembly line was set up in Tianjin to meet surging demand from Chinese customers. It is the third location of Airbus's A320 family production facility and first outside Europe. It delivered its first A320 aircraft in 2009. China is the largest single-country market for Airbus, accounting for about one-fifth of its global deliveries."
Posted by: kiwiklown | Oct 30 2020 9:12 utc | 246
vk.
legal refugee from Tunisia?It is not a country at war,neither is Marocco or Algeria.Still there are youngsters from those countries illegally trying to enter France.Turkey as well.
A few years ago,on New Years eve,in several european cities there were women in crowd gatherings near city centers or railway stations attacked by crowds of immigrant youth,in Köln ,Rotterdam and some other places.This must have been organized by sending them textmessages on their phones,in a colour revolution try-out.Of course it was denied,the, played down,then forgotten about by the press and the so called leftist parties.
Posted by: willie | Oct 30 2020 9:15 utc | 247
@214_K_C_
Why do you all have to bring up Circe so often? Is it like the exception proves the rule to your logic-free addled brains?Yes, she's incredibly annoying, but obviously I triggered you. Why is that?
Gee, I would consider it a badge of honor to be likened to me. Normally, I would be fighting in the trenches with you, but that was such a cowardly low blow. Good luck.
Annoying how? I don't pull any punches with this crowd, but it's so true what they say, and you're finding this out right now.
It's not easy to wrestle with a pig. Let me rephrase George Bernard Shaw: Never wrestle with pigs, you all get dirty, and the pigs love it.
*********
Go Georgia! Bring it home on November 3rd!
My gut keeps telling me Donald is going to get an ass-kicking like we've never seen, but let me be modest, people should vote like there's no tomorrow or we'll never witness that awesome moment of total vindication.
Donald is about to be schooled by________.
Posted by: Circe | Oct 30 2020 9:38 utc | 248
8 months into this pandemic now !
Who has been spreading this virus ?
Answer. The virus deniers. Not the people advocating hygienic practice.
Who is responsible for the long term disruption to our children’s live’s ?
The super disinformation spreaders.
Who is to blame for this virus not being stopped within 3 months with the resulting massive
financial consequences ?
Russ, Norwegian and the bogus doctor.
Pure blame shifting.
Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 30 2020 9:57 utc | 250
re Mark2 #224 who claimed:
"Debisisdead I didn’t know you were a trump supporter," see this is where I despair that so many cannot see the structure of the game. Would I be happy if orangeutan won? Of course not, but I wouldn't be as disconcerted about the result as I would be if Biden won.
This is not a binary game with either one of two choices however much the corporate media want to portray it as that. In this case the best longterm gain for humans who care about other humans has to be Biden losing - not because a trump win is a good thing but because a Biden loss is a win for humans who care about other humans.
Neither Biden nor trump could give a flying fuck about anyone outside their own particular narrow self obsessed circle which means we, humans who care about humans must agitate for a situation which grants the most to humans who do care, in this case orangeutan offers the most, not because he is likely to create any space for humanist initiatives, but because biden losing should make the position of those who advocate for a weak-arse neolib loser like biden, a low life whose policies don't differ from d. trump's, totally untenable.
The official dim party policy barely differs from official rethug party policy. eg both are implacably oppopssed to medicare for all - in the nidst of a global pandemic! Both parties bend down and lube up happy to offer up their arseholes to whatever insane demand of zionism is that week.
Both 'sides' were happy to unanimously support the biggest upward transfer of wealth in the history of mankind when they supported the cares act which gave at least 11trillion dollars to the already rich and a lousy thousand bucks to Joe/Jo shitkicker, and now the dems want to give the wall st crims another huge gift of taxpayer dollars whilst Joe/Jo Blow get squat, not even that really, since ordinary amerikans are just tossed outta their homes but worse, cos in amerika squatting a vacant residence has always been illegal, they must live in a shoebox by the side of the road and the dollar dems say that is exactly how it should be.
Better the dems lose and be forced to change by rank & file members, so that the slimy cabal currently running the dem party are purged, than this current tosh whereby the dims talk left but behave right, continues for another instant.
Posted by: Debsisdead | Oct 30 2020 10:11 utc | 251
@Mark2 | Oct 30 2020 9:57 utc | 250
Who is to blame for this virus not being stopped within 3 months with the resulting massive
financial consequences ?
Russ, Norwegian and the bogus doctor.
Oh really? you seem to be awed by our supposed immense influence. I think, however, it is all relative to your poor self image and general failure.
Pure blame shifting.
That's what you are attempting, yes.
Posted by: Norwegian | Oct 30 2020 10:28 utc | 252
willie
all true of course;
and how the MSM tried not to cover the boycotts of Fr products in the "friendly" Gulf countries....
Posted by: Mina | Oct 30 2020 11:30 utc | 253
Neither do they want to reflect on their responsibility in destroying the last pluri-religious country in the Middle East by comparing the kids of French impoverished suburbs to heroes joining the fight for the Republic in 1036 Spain.. So called left intellectuals actively promoted that in 2011-2013
https://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2013/04/02/la-syrie-est-notre-guerre-d-espagne_3152041_3232.html
including Le Monde's Jean Birnbaum
https://www.cairn.info/revue-projet-2016-3-page-94b.html
Achieving to destabilize already unstable north African countries was Sarkozy's job for his family friends on the other side of the Atlantic. Now we pay the price and for many years to come. Never do these disconnected journo elites wonder if the bombs paid by their taxes are not producing human bombs each time Malians, Yemenites, Libyans, Syrians see their friends and family into pieces of flesh.
Posted by: Mina | Oct 30 2020 11:37 utc | 254
Debsisdead thinks everyone is stupid and he invented the wheel.
He's jackrabbit's brother by another mother only worse. There's delusional and then there's wilfully manipulative.
Sure there's a duopoly, but if you don't get why getting rid of Trump is a life and death decision, and the only moral alternative, then you're just as depraved as him.
Let me tell you something, Mr. High and Mighty knowitall, nothing you say, or anyone says will stop asshat Trumpers from voting for Trump. Therefore, he would win under your rule. Therefore you're for Trump and much more devious and condescending than Russ or Jackrabbit! You protest way too much, not to be for Trump. I've never seen you hang around this much in over 3 years!
Your despair is palpable and I highly suspect that mthrfkr is about to get buried in a landslide.
Let me tell you just some of the people who want this outcome: the families of the Covid dead, the immigrant children who are lost from their parents, millions about to lose their healthcare, the entire country of Iran, and all the legitimate inhabitants of Palestine.
So I don't give a shit about the fake purity you peddle and condescend with! It stinks as much as the goal behind it!
Oh, and Trump is not Putin's Manchurian about to destroy it all, he's just a fanboi trying to measure up in fascist machismo. He's Zionism's Manchurian.
Posted by: Circe | Oct 30 2020 12:04 utc | 255
Debsisdead @ 251
Thanks for taking the time and trouble to give that answer. Respect.
I agree with just about all of it.
And yet, it seems to be a mirror image of Circes standpoint !
Also you down play trumps pertential to do massive harm in the next 4 years. The hatred he has propagated is already on a scale we should never ever forgive him for.
I won’t defend Biden or trump you understand that.
It’s down to which one is the greater evil.
while the disruptive right laugh at the disarray here on this site. That’s what hurts me.
United we stand devided we fall !!
Pay no attention to the knuckle draggers on this site.
———-
Circe —- you keep going. Don’t you chainge your style !
I’v got your back.
Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 30 2020 12:15 utc | 256
O yes and while I’m about it
Where are all you middle of the road, fence sitting tankies ? So keen to discuss the distruction of other country's by America but I hear a deafening silence.
Pick your side or loose my respect.
All it takes is good people to look the over way for evil to thrive !
Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 30 2020 12:30 utc | 257
Thank you Mina.
I am glad to be not the only person aware of french situation around here.Like Norwegian and MadMax2 in their respective countries I listened to all state radio news,and other channels as well,especially when working as a chauffeur de camion..At some moment the constant propaganda on France Inter,France Culture ,le Monde ,Libération newspapers,and on tele C'dansl'Air where we can see every working day since 12 september 2001 (!)a panel of experts,always the same atlantists giving their concorded views,with never any condtradiction,about all this that are deemed to be the item of the day,at some point this propaganda is so obvious that I can't figure out why nobody else can see this.
Posted by: willie | Oct 30 2020 12:35 utc | 258
Right wing psycopaths are known for not being able to predict the outcome of their actions !
Trump has been planning Civil war in America, he’s recruited and trained up his uniformed thugs, sent a dog whistle green light to the violent scum on the right. Provoked the left and ethnic minority !
You won’t like the outcome.
Vote Trump you will be in a blood bath.
It won’t matter what colour skin. You yes you will be the victem, the refugee.
Look at what the American arms industry did to Syria !
Trump is not on your side. It’s about the profit.
Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 30 2020 12:59 utc | 259
“Unlike the old left, rooted in radically independent organized labor, Antifa’s leadership and activities, to the contrary, are financed through billionaire oligarchs both directly and indirectly, like George Soros and Michael Bloomberg.”
Posted by: Down South | Oct 30 2020 13:07 utc | 260
Debsisdead @205: "...there is no chance of the dems ever reforming cos they have absolutely no incentive to do any such thing if biden/harris wins."
Unfortunately the Dims have no incentive to change in any way even if Biden/Harris lose.
Trump's victory in 2016 should have been the wake-up call for the Dims that prompted real soul-searching and re-centering the party values and ideology around what is important to working Americans... assuming that the Dims give even a fractional shit about those "deplorables" and have any intention of ever altering their business centered ideology and values. If there were any chance that the Dims would entertain the thought of reforming themselves then Biden wouldn't even be their candidate right now. The very fact that Biden is the Dims' champion at this time should be more than adequate proof that they will never reform.
If the Dims could reform they would have started that back in 2016. Instead they went mindlessly hysterical, barking at shadows of their own creation (Russiagate, anyone?) and overreacting like a cytokine storm to offenses that only occurred in their own unmoored and unhinged imaginations. Our resident crazy drug witch Circe is a perfect example of how brain-cooked and lost to reality these people are.
If you need to understand the psychology behind it, observe that the demographics that the Dims have chosen to rely upon rather than the "deplorable" working class are middle class pseudo professionals who have embraced "victim culture" as a fundamental component of their identity, even more deeply than their imaginary genders or the socially constructed significance of their skin tones (Aside: it infuriates them that white working class people rarely ever self-identify as "white", whatever that is). Within this "victim culture" social status is attained by identifying various ways in which one has been victimized. The choicest victim status that the individual can identify within themselves becomes their primary and surface identity.
So how do you think people who wallow in their victimhood approach an electoral loss? You guessed it! The loss simply reinforces their victimhood and adds to their perceived status! It elevates them in their own minds as noble martyrs! Sure, it's all melodrama, but these demographics are disassociated from reality to begin with (they are middle class in the land of Disney and Netflix), so the melodrama is as real to them as cracked and callused palms are to a manual laborer.
If the Dims lose it will only reinforce their current downward spiral.
Did I mention "downward spiral"? The Dims felt they were on course to profit from demographic shifts in the US as "minorities" became majorities and "deplorable" white workers became a smaller share of the population. Unfortunately, they didn't realize that the identitarian "victim culture" described above isn't very appealing to Black or Latin American workers. In fact it is the middle class; the core of this warped "victim culture", that is the disappearing demographic in the US. This, of course, is due to the decline of the American Empire, which can no longer afford to maintain such a large layer of useless eaters to serve as insulation between the elites and the working class.
There will be no reforming of the Dims. The sooner that fantasy is abandoned the better off everyone will be.
Posted by: William Gruff | Oct 30 2020 13:21 utc | 261
Down south @ 260
No one pays me or anyone I know or millions of us. We are the public. Peace loving people who unlike you know right from wrong.
We know fascists don’t listen to reason, they take it as a sign of weakness!
We know the only way to stop fascists is to be more brutal than they are. That’s called self-defence, expect us.
You won’t like what you wish for. We won’t be playing by your rules.
The greater public will be the true victems. But their asleep to what is coming if they vote Trump the fascist!
Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 30 2020 13:21 utc | 262
In response to Down South @ 260, I don't know of any anti-fascists who are funded by the likes of Bloomberg or Soros. Most "antifa" groups are not even funded at all. This is contrast to the "eco-terrorists" of yore or the Black Panther Party, who often had big money financiers
On the other hand, I do know a couple of anarchists - mostly flavors of so-called "market anarchism" whose acolytes I expect will devolve back into the camps of anarchist-communists and Chicago school "anarcho"-capitalists - who really do their best to tow the CIA line. These people are mostly outside of "antifa" as a wider movement or otherwise trying to influence it along anti-communist lines. This is in contrast to anarchist luminaries like Noam Chomsky who have always struck a fiercely anti-imperialist stance even when it was massively unpopular to do so, such as in the cases of Cambodia (initially giving Pol Pot the benefit of the doubt as he did with all nominally anti-imperialist movements until the full extent of the horror came out) and ex-Yugoslavia (which has seen him and his colleague Ed Herman smeared as genocide denialists).
But all this talk of financing kind of misses the point. The financiers aren't always the ones calling the shots or pulling the strings. In the case of the ELF and Earth First! and the Black Panthers, radical actors and popular musicians often gave large donations, including the likes of Woody Harrelson (Earth First! or ELF, can't remember), John Lennon (the BPP), and so on. But is anyone going to seriously argue that it was John Lennon calling the shots and not Huey P? And who wore the pants in the relationship between Karl Marx and his sugar daddy Friedrich Engels?
I would love Soros funding. I would love Koch brother funding. Because ultimately my project is to remove even the possibility of there being billionaires through the instauration of a classless society. If they, for whatever reason, want to fund that endeavor, I'll take their donations.
Posted by: fnord | Oct 30 2020 13:42 utc | 263
Mark2 @ 262
So basically do as we tell you or we will hurt you?
And then in the same post you call yourself peace loving people!!!!
And even worse, after that display above you genuinely cannot understand why the general public doesn’t support you ?
You are right about one thing though, as you have demonstrated fascists can’t be reasoned with.
Posted by: Down South | Oct 30 2020 14:02 utc | 264
fnord @ 263
I’m not talking individuals and neither was the article I referenced. The fact remains that corporate America and Soros et al do sponsor BLM and Antifa. This is beyond dispute.
He who pays the piper calls the tune!!
Posted by: Down South | Oct 30 2020 14:06 utc | 265
@ Down South, 265
I don't know if sayings are really an adequate substitute for me for evidence of shot calling. There's no evidence I'm aware of of groups with the name "antifa" in them being funded by anything even linked to the Open Society Foundation. Soros, as a Jewish man who lived through the Holocaust, likely considers himself some kind of "anti-fascist" and that would be evident from his foundation's educational initiatives in favor of pluralist democracy and against autocracy. Soros's ideal world seems to be a million and one merchant republics, which is unrealistic but not really all that scary. I get why conservatives are so afraid of Soros - they want the autocracy he advises against - but I don't know why leftists are.
As far as "BLM" goes, the people who liberated goods from Walmart in Philly were not told to do so by anyone, and what they took was still a pittance in comparison to the lives taken by police across this country, including the lives that are locked up in prison for non-violent offenses, or those lives stolen by the poverty imposed on us in the midst of commodity abundance. "BLM" the 501c3 non-profit might have some passing connection to the OSF, but it was not the one organizing shit besides glorified voter drives.
But anyway, given that you think "he who pays the piper calls the tune," was Woody Harrelson in charge of EF!, or was Judi Bari? Who gave the orders in the Oakland BPP, Huey Newton or one of the actors who bankrolled them?
Posted by: fnord | Oct 30 2020 14:37 utc | 266
Down South @260
"When Fascism comes to America, it will be called anti-Fascism!" --Huey Long
This confusion we are seeing today arises because people are unclear about what fascism really is. Remember that the Nazi's base in Germany was primarily middle class and lumpen proletariat; in other words demographics prone to delusion. They also called themselves "socialists", though they were anything but. The ones calling themselves anti-fascist in the US are suburban and upper middle class kids. Few to none are working people. Indeed, they consider white workers to be "deplorable" and define them as their enemies.
People who target workers are fascists. People who fight against class consciousness are fascists.
The article that Down South linked is actually pretty good, even though the author is clearly not very knowledgeable about Marxism. This convergence from a non-Marxist is a good sign, though, as that is what you expect from accurate observations; they converge on the scientific ones.
Posted by: William Gruff | Oct 30 2020 14:40 utc | 267
fnord @266
Soros financed "pluralist" protests in Kiev in 2013-2014. Notably, he financed agitation among gay/lgbtqiapkxyz identities. The Maidan "protests", with their expensive commercial stages, professional sound systems, Jumbotron screens, corporate entertainment "artists" on those stages, free food, and marketed by professional "event management", suddenly lost their financing and thus dried up as soon as real, swastika-tattooed fascists took power in the Ukraine. Now gay/lgbtqiapkxyz people get harassed and murdered by neo-Nazis in the Ukraine on a regular basis, but no more financing of professional organizers for protests from Soros.
The conclusion is obvious. The installation of fascists in power in the Ukraine was Soros' objective, not building a better society for the downtrodden and victimized. When Soros' objectives were achieve he packed up his "event managed" fake protest machinery and moved on, leaving the Ukraine's gays to the tender mercies of neo-Nazi goon squads.
Soros is a fascist. The fact of a Jew being a fascist confusing one illustrates lack of understanding of what fascism really is.
Posted by: William Gruff | Oct 30 2020 15:04 utc | 268
Down south @ 264
You deliberately twist my words, shamelessly in full view ! The truth means nothing to you psycopaths does it. You lie and make it a big one and just keep on telling that lie.
Then you blame your victem for the very thing you are guilty of.
You people do it to Russia, China, Iran,Syria, Afghanistan, South America, Muslims, Black people.
You don’t get it do you ! Your the violent bad guy ! Not us who are brave enough to stop you. And stop you we will. Fuck your exceptionalism.
How you like ya platform now ? Scum bag.
Does free speech protect me from censorship ? We’ll see, you fuckers have censored the left to the point of silence, but we’re still here.
Screw the lid down on a pressure cooker, see what happens !
Your fault not ours.
Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 30 2020 15:26 utc | 269
Mark2
Calm down mate. Please. It’s getting embarrassing.
Listen, it’s one of the facts of life that 100% of non smokers die... yes, that’s right, they die. And, as the average age of Covid death is 84 yrs, two years above the average age of death of 82years in many western states, I think we can safely say by now that the young and healthy should take their freedom and walk free.
Yes it’s an infectious disease... but my friend, the time for hysterics is over, people die my friend. It’s a fact of life, not a political football. Calm down.
Posted by: MadMax2 | Oct 30 2020 15:26 utc | 270
fnord @ 266
Soros, as a Jewish man who lived through the Holocaust, likely considers himself some kind of "anti-fascist" and that would be evident from his foundation's educational initiatives in favor of pluralist democracy and against autocracy.
Watch in full!
Posted by: Down South | Oct 30 2020 15:27 utc | 271
Mark2 @ 269
What is hilarious about your rant is that I’m not American! :)
Down South not Deep South :)
The reason I inverted what you said is to show you that you have become what you hate so much but you still don’t get it.
Wipe the flecks of spit off your computer screen! :)
Posted by: Down South | Oct 30 2020 15:47 utc | 272
@256 Mark2
It’s down to which one is the greater evil.
I, and I know many people don't view it that way. I think it's more like: doing whatever it takes, except the unthinkable, to stop the glaring threat to morally-conscious humanity. (case in point, Mad, and I emphasize Mad, Max2 with whom Josef Mengele would find common ground. Sick)
Morally-conscious humanity--is what's at stake! That is damn left purity at this moment and any moment, especially when the evolution of that consciousness faces an existential threat.
Left purity is NOT Debsisdead, Down South, Russ and William Gruff's perverted hijacking of Leftist principles to spin the 11th hour hasbara rescue of that CRIMINAL Trump.
Gruff, you think I don't see straight through your perversion. You would sell ice to the eskimos and your own mother at this point of desperation.
Ya just don't get it, do you?! It's not about Biden or the Dems! It's about taking down that depraved ANIMAL in the White House! Quit shaming and condescending to the Left! Your fake populist Ziofascist tin pot despot is DONE. It's over. He's finished.
Posted by: Circe | Oct 30 2020 15:59 utc | 273
@ Posted by: William Gruff | Oct 30 2020 14:40 utc | 267
Depends on the place. In Latin America (Nazi)Fascism is an essentially middle/upper middle class ideology. In Europe, it is a proletarian ideology.
The difference here is that one essential ingredient for the flourishing of nazifascism is missing in Latin America: imperialism. In the first world countries, the nazifascists can promise the masses prosperity and social ascension through the conquest and subjugation of a neighboring people (Germany, the conquest of the Soviet Union; Italy, the restoration of the borders of the old Roman Empire); that's not the case with the Latin American countries, in which an inferiority complex in relation to the USA is the pillar of any variation of its right-wing. As a result, Latin American Nazifascism is that treacherous, sold off behind the curtains, ideology that is akin to the mythical Zionism in the First World countries - which is ironic, as Zionism is the legitimacy element nazifascism in the First World uses to its own existence.
That's why, for example, the Brazilian communists defeated the Brazilian fascism (called integralism) while their counterparts were victorious in Italy and Germany at the same time. Integralism never managed to be a mass movement because they couldn't promise the Brazilian lumpen a promised land of honey and milk.
--//--
@ Posted by: William Gruff | Oct 30 2020 15:04 utc | 268
Soros is a liberal.
As I mentioned earlier, Liberalism divides the human world in two parts: political sphere (State, artificial world) and civil society (economy, free world, natural world). In the political sphere, everything should be "democratic" and "equal" - but in the civil society, everything is valid, including slavery and genocide.
That's why Soros doesn't see any problem in funding nazis in Ukraine as mercenaries. He won't accept those nazis in the political sphere (structure of the State), but he does accept them in the free world (as paid labor power, mercenaries). Obviously, as a died-in-the-wool liberal, he doesn't consider Ukraine part of the "free world" (community of the free), and he doesn't consider the Ukrainian people truly human ("wild beasts"), so I must rephrase: he's ok with Ukrainian nazis in the Ukrainian government (which isn't a real government to the liberal eyes, as the Ukrainian people are not humans), but he's not ok with Ukrainian nazis in the governments of any of the Western First World nations (specially of the USA).
Circe thanks for all that absalutly spot on.
These clowns think I’m on a rant,
They should fear the fact I’m ice colol and calm.
They don’t like the push back.
Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 30 2020 16:13 utc | 275
@JackRabbit #192
So what you're saying is that - whoever becomes the next president, the US will continue its policies of the past several decades: sanctions, picking on 3rd rate opponents, color revolutions.
But there will not be an open shooting war.
Is this correct?
If so, I would agree. All of the above are basically CIA type plots. They're definitely conflict, but they are not open war. Nor do they benefit the US economy or people in any way - only a few MIC industries and government agencies.
As for 4th generation war: I would agree that there are deluded people - particularly in the US government - that think they "won" the Cold War as opposed to Gorbachev doing the surrender monkey.
The question is whether the situations are similar or not.
Russia from the late 1980s to 1990 was in serious trouble due to the oil price drop. Its satellite nations were costing it a lot of capital and resources which oil and natural gas payments from Europe were subsidizing.
That's largely gone now - subsidies are still there but are mostly in the form of free trade agreements and cheap energy.
More importantly: were there mass riots in the US in the 1980s to 1990?
The now-4 decades of no wage increases for American male workers had just begun after the big jumps in the Volcker shock and its immediate aftermath.
In any case, open war being "very very possible" is very different than saying either it will absolutely happen or that there are any large groups of people that actually want it. I have seen no evidence that Americans in any significant numbers (5% or more) want open war with Russia or China - and I'd think at least 20% would be needed for that.
Posted by: c1ue | Oct 30 2020 16:14 utc | 276
@_K_C_ #many
You, and Circe and Mark2 are exactly why the centrist liberals and conservatives would never go along with the few changes you want - that make sense.
Until you get out of your basements and into the real world, and grow up and understand that real life is a matter of talking to everyone and understanding their points of view to find common ground, none of you will ever amount to anything beyond ranting voices on open forums.
And unlike you, conservatives - both the centrist ones like me and the further right - we don't actually care what you do or say so long as you don't start infringing upon our societally accepted rights.
Conservatives don't advocate forcing people to do anything.
Posted by: c1ue | Oct 30 2020 16:21 utc | 277
I did a deeper dive into 2016 and the poll results so far for 2020.
Here is a pic of:
1) 2016 final poll results for the swing states
2) the actual 2016 final results
3) the 2020 poll results as of this moment, and
4) Trafalgar's present results.
IMGUR photo
First note: Almost every single one of the "swing" states were actually polling for a Trump win in 2016. That's quite a bit different lede than the MSM was saying - for those who remember the non-stop HRC triumphal march.
8 of the 11 "swing in 2020" states were polling for Trump to win, so his winning there really should not have surprised anyone. Both "Biden leaning" states in 2020 were large polling leads for HRC which Trump outperformed in a major way (+7 and +3.7) but didn't affect the final outcome.
Apparently the MSM thought HRC would outperform the MSM polling data because Obama did so in 2012. In reality, Trump outperformed his polling data in 10 of the 13 (swing + leaning HRC) states. Personally, I suspect the Obama outperformance was incumbent effect.
Second note: Trump underperformed in Texas and Arizona and was at par for Minnesota - but Texas and Arizona were large Trump wins and MN isn't a Republican state.
To be fair, the MSM polls certainly have tried to change their methodology (at least they say so) - but the delta vs. Trafalgar is still huge.
So the question still remains: will Trump outperform his present polling data? Trump outperformed an average of 2.9% in the swing states and 3.49% overall in the 9 states he outperformed in 2020.
If the MSM polls have, indeed, corrected or overcorrected for their liberal bias (or at least undercounting of conservatives), then Biden could have a blowout.
Even the MSM centrists like Krystal and Saagar, as well as the DNCC, are clearly believing this - I'm getting non-stop texts from Democrat organizers in Texas via a honeypot ID I set up there, literally 25 years ago, to turn out and vote.
The Democrats clearly believe they can win in Texas because the MSM polls show a tie between Trump and Biden, plus Trump underperformed by 1% in 2016 even as he won the state by 11%(!). I think they're cracked but we will see.
If Trafalgar is right: Trump is on his way to win - even losing Michigan won't matter.
Either way, my view is still that this election is going to be really close - that the MSM is still smoking crack and leaning liberal.
But we will see.
Next: I'm going to look at where Trump campaigned in late 2016. There's no question at all that Trump is getting a lot of open, public support at his rallies as opposed to Biden. It might be that which explains the outperformance rather than anything else.
Posted by: c1ue | Oct 30 2020 16:44 utc | 278
Conservatives don't advocate forcing people to do anything.Posted by: c1ue | Oct 30 2020 16:21 utc | 277
I nearly lost my lunch reading that one. So that's why Trump is stacking the Courts with Conservative judges?
Conservatives just want to control women, gay people, protesters, people with pre-existing health issues, demographic change, blue states, elections...you name it!
Posted by: Circe | Oct 30 2020 16:58 utc | 279
@Circe #279
Yep, conservatives don't force anyone to get pregnant. Nor do actual, real world conservatives believe that abortion should be illegal. But you wouldn't know that because you don't actually have normal conversations with any of them.
Posted by: c1ue | Oct 30 2020 17:03 utc | 280
Campaign rallies is going to be interesting.
Some early info:
1) Trump rally schedule until election: Trump rally schedule
Click on the map tab, then click on rally. He's the Energizer Bunny.
2) An early comparison of rallies between Trump and Biden (until 1st week of October): Trump vs. Biden rallies
I don't know how accurate this is - Biden rally information is nonexistent. But then again, the actual rallies may be nonexistent.
3) Trump rallies in 2016: Trump rallies in 2016 on Wiki
I will be pulling data from this Wiki list. Curious to see how it compares both with Trump activity in 2020 and with state results.
Posted by: c1ue | Oct 30 2020 17:07 utc | 281
c1ue @ 281
The contrast when comparing rallys in the same towns visited by each candidate could not be starker.
Posted by: Down South | Oct 30 2020 17:14 utc | 282
c1ue @278: "To be fair, the MSM polls certainly have tried to change their methodology (at least they say so) - but the delta vs. Trafalgar is still huge."
How can they correct when they still don't know how they went wrong? Trafalgar at least has an idea that isn't based on "It was the Russians!", so those numbers have a better chance of being accurate.
Posted by: William Gruff | Oct 30 2020 17:17 utc | 283
@ William Gruff | Oct 30 2020 15:04 utc | 268
You claim that the OSF has dried up in Ukraine. I don't see any evidence of this. They spent several million dollars last year, some of which apparently went to efforts toward tolerance of people of LGBT status. This is public record as per their website: https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/newsroom/the-open-society-foundations-in-ukraine
There are good reasons for eastern Europeans to hate Soros, notably his financial rape of it in the aftermath of the collapse of the Soviet-style planned economies. None of the reasons I'm usually given by his detractors seem to be good ones, though. Soros, and similarly, the Koch brothers, are not exactly string pullers. Their ideological tendencies are borne from their class status and they fund, with only some discrimination, any organization that advances the interests of their class.
I know many anti-fascist organizers. I know no one on the payroll of the Open Society Foundation. Incidentally, I do know some self-described anti-fascists who have received funding from the Cato Institute (i.e., the Koch brothers). Now there's two degrees of separation to get your noggin joggin'.
Posted by: fnord | Oct 30 2020 17:23 utc | 284
@MadMax2 | Oct 30 2020 15:26 utc | 270
Wise words, thanks for that.
Posted by: Norwegian | Oct 30 2020 17:33 utc | 285
@ Mark2
Again: euromomo.eu -> z-scores
Austria: below baseline
Belgium: significant increase
Cyprus: below baseline
Denkmark: below baseline
Estonia: around baseline
Finland: way below baseline
France: below baseline
Germany(Berlin): significantly below baseline
Germany(Hesse): slightly below baseline
Greece: around baseline
Hungary: significantly below baseline
Ireland: below baseline
Italy: significant increase
Luxembourg: slightly above baseline
Malta: same as Luxembourg
Netherlands: significant increase, falling toward baseline
Norway: below baseline
Portgual: increased, within normal range
Slowenia: approaching baseline from above
Spain: off the charts (increase)
Sweden: below baseline
Switzerland: within normal range, increasing
UK: approaching baseline from above
Scotland: below baseline
Wales: significantly below baseline
Now, what?
Btw, what's your age? Comorbidities?
Posted by: Hmpf | Oct 30 2020 17:36 utc | 286
@Circe | Oct 30 2020 15:59 utc | 273
Your fake populist Ziofascist tin pot despot is DONE. It's over. He's finished.
I believe you are addressing the big guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo-UXZ-1ups
Posted by: Norwegian | Oct 30 2020 17:38 utc | 287
Ok, analysis done.
Here is the cleaned up list of Trump rallies (according to Wiki) from October 1, 2016 to November 7:
Trump rallies Oct-Nov 2016
There were 69 (!) in 38 days...
Breakdown:
FL: 15
NC: 8
OH: 7
PA: 8
CO: 7
MI: 4
NH: 4
NV: 4
This represents 57 of the 69. No other states had more than 2.
Note that Michigan was only visited four times. Wisconsin - another major Trump upset - was only visited twice.
Zero Texas and 2 Arizona visits.
Colorado was visited heavily by Trump. Polls said HRC+3 but final results was HRC+4.9.
Net net - not clear it made a difference.
Trump outperformed in Florida, Pennsylvania, North Carolina and Ohio but underperformed in Colorado - the 4 states he visited the most.
He outperformed only 0.8% in Florida - the state he spent more than 20% of his visits on and 0.7% in Pennsylvania, but had huge deltas in Ohio and North Carolina.
I'll now look into HRC rallies - Trump rallies don't necessarily occur in a vacuum, after all.
Posted by: c1ue | Oct 30 2020 17:53 utc | 288
@Down South #282
I don't know if the rally pics are necessarily indicative. The Democrat line has been COVID-bad, so I'd expect less people to mingle just from that.
Pics are also really easy to manipulate. Angles, time of pic (peak vs. early vs. late), location etc.
Posted by: c1ue | Oct 30 2020 17:55 utc | 289
Although it's not likely to get very far, Public Banking Act introduced in Congress.
@William Gruff #283
Again, I don't know how the various groups run their polls.
Structural issues like online polls - I would agree that bias cannot be fixed.
However, there are a lot of knobs to manipulate with polling which can be controlled. In particular, the upsizing of conservatives represented is likely a major source of error: i.e. if the real population is 40% conservative but the poll sample group returns 20% conservatives - an easy but very risky way to compensate is to just double the conservative results.
Trafalgar notes specifically that Never Trumpers are much more likely to respond to polls; combined with only 20% response rate from conservatives to poll requests vs. liberals - this is a believable structural problem.
What I haven't seen is any type of quantification for what an incumbent gets: positive or negative. It is known that no incumbent has ever lost if there was an economic recession - but again, COVID.
The Democrats have focused on COVID rather than the economy - in complete opposition to Bill Clinton's successful "Its the economy, stupid".
Posted by: c1ue | Oct 30 2020 17:59 utc | 291
@ karlof1 | Oct 30 2020 17:59 utc | 290 with the link to the Public Banking Act introduced into US Congress.....YEAH!
What is important for me is that a conversation is occurring about public banking.
Thanks for all your efforts in the MoA comments......I read your thing about China over at your site and agree. The question continues to be how empire goes down, not if. It could take a decade but I don't think so.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 30 2020 18:06 utc | 292
No Wiki list of HRC rallies, sadly.
I found some schedule data but it doesn't look accurate: Wikielections on HRC schedule
However, I did find this:
ABC comparing HRC and Trump in 2016
HRC: Days spent there in final month before election (since Oct. 8): FLORIDA: 8 OHIO: 5 PENNSYLVANIA: 5 NORTH CAROLINA: 4 NEVADA: 3 MICHIGAN: 3 NEW HAMPSHIRE: 2 IOWA: 1 COLORADO: 1 ARIZONA: 1 VIRGINIA: 0 MINNESOTA: 0Trump: Days spent there in final month before election (since Oct. 8):
FLORIDA: 10
OHIO: 5
PENNSYLVANIA: 7
NORTH CAROLINA: 6
NEVADA: 3
MICHIGAN: 3
NEW HAMPSHIRE: 5
IOWA: 2
COLORADO: 4
ARIZONA: 1
VIRGINIA: 2
MINNESOTA: 1
Pretty clearly a significant difference. Trump's actual schedule shows many multiple stop days - I don't see much evidence of the same with HRC. Or Biden in 2020.
Posted by: c1ue | Oct 30 2020 18:11 utc | 293
karlof1 @290,
Thanks for the info.
Two very good examples for public banking are the postal banks in Japan and Taiwan. Both operates for a long time and serve people well.
Not sure if attackers on USPS have that in mind. If USPS got beaten down, a good option to start public banking will be gone.
Posted by: LuRenJia | Oct 30 2020 18:13 utc | 294
The Bank of North Dakota is publically owned.
You don’t have to wait for the federal government.
States have the power to start their own.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_North_Dakota
Posted by: Down South | Oct 30 2020 18:24 utc | 295
Down South@295,
Thanks for the info. According to the reference you cited:
Organization
Under state law, the bank is the State of North Dakota doing business as the Bank of North Dakota.[4] The state and its agencies are required to place their funds in the bank, but local governments are not required to do so.Services
Other entities may also open accounts at the Bank; however, BND offers fewer retail services than other institutions, and it has only one office. These limit its competitiveness in consumer banking.[5] The bank does have an account with the Federal Reserve Bank, but deposits are not insured by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, instead being guaranteed by the general fund of the state of North Dakota itself and the taxpayers of the state.[5] BND also guarantees student loans (through its Student Loans of North Dakota division), business development loans, and state and municipal bonds.[5]
It's a start but I guess BND also knows the "limit"...
Posted by: LuRenJia | Oct 30 2020 18:41 utc | 296
Posted by: Circe | Oct 30 2020 9:38 utc | 248
From Circe to Cicero just a small step.
When, O Donald, do you mean to cease abusing our patience?
How long is that madness of yours still to mock us?
When is there to be an end of that unbridled audacity of yours, swaggering about as it does now?
Posted by: Paco | Oct 30 2020 21:14 utc | 297
@Paco #297
Except for a small problem: Cicero was pushing to keep existing traditions even as Rome was failing.
That's conservative.
Posted by: c1ue | Oct 30 2020 22:02 utc | 298
Vote trump and get year’s of corona virus together with the resulting financial ruination. Personal and national.
Trump dose not care about you ! Don’t be a tool.
Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 30 2020 22:22 utc | 299
The pig in the White House repeatedly and viciously attacks Ilhan Omar at his rallies putting her life and her family's life at risk each time.
This is the scum that c1ue, William Gruff and others here support or prefer.
This disgusting animal spewing garbage, xenophobia and hate, belittling women, poisoning the minds of the younger crowd behind him, validating depravity and deception and undermining the truth and morality is creating a society in his image and likeness a morally-bankrupt corrupt society. He's pure filth.
Today he claimed doctors are cashing in by declaring all deaths Covid deaths. He's really a sick bastard attacking the people fighting and working double shifts to save lives in this pandemic.
Norwegian, fake doc wellington, and others spreading COVID Conspiracies should be put in a room with Covid patients on ventilators and be forced to witness for days and months the sacrifices being made every day by healthcare workers to try to save lives in this pandemic.
You all stink.
Posted by: Circe | Oct 31 2020 1:24 utc | 300
The comments to this entry are closed.
Posted by: vk | Oct 30 2020 1:16 utc | 195
Or maybe the mad Sultan of Turkey is releasing the Kraken terrorist hordes on Europe. Erdogan's diplomacy leaves much to be desired. Just ask Syria, Iraq, Russia, Armenia the Kurds etc.
Posted by: Tom | Oct 30 2020 2:03 utc | 201