Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 09, 2020

Europe And The New Sanctions On Iran

The U.S. has imposed new sanctions on Iran which will make ANY trade with the country very difficult:

[T]he Trump administration has decided to impose yet further sanctions on the country, this time targeting the entirety of the Iranian financial sector. These new measures carry biting secondary sanctions effects that cut off third parties’ access to the U.S. financial sector if they engage with Iran’s financial sector. Since the idea was first floated publicly, many have argued that sanctioning Iran’s financial sector would eviscerate what humanitarian trade has survived the heavy hand of existing U.S. sanctions.

Behind the move was pressure from the Zionist lobby. President Trump is in need of campaign funds and the lobby provides those. The move is also designed to preempt any attempts by a potentially new administration to revive the nuclear agreement with Iran:

This idea appears to have first been introduced into public discourse in an Aug. 25, 2020, Wall Street Journal article by Mark Dubowitz and Richard Goldberg urging the Trump administration to “[b]uild an Iranian [s]anctions [w]all” to prevent any future Biden administration from returning to the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA), the nuclear accord between Iran and the world’s major powers on which President Donald Trump reneged in May 2018.

The new sanctions will stop all trade between the 'western' countries and Iran.

The Foreign Minister of Iran responded with defiance:

Javad Zarif @JZarif - 17:30 UTC · Oct 8, 2020

Amid Covid19 pandemic, U.S. regime wants to blow up our remaining channels to pay for food & medicine.

Iranians WILL survive this latest of cruelties.

But conspiring to starve a population is a crime against humanity. Culprits & enablers—who block our money—WILL face justice.

In response Iran will continue its turn to the east. Russia, China and probably India will keep payment channels with Iran open or will make barter deals.

The Europeans, who so far have not dared to counter U.S. sanctions on Iran, are likely to be again shown as the feckless U.S. ass kissers they have always been. They will thereby lose out in a market with 85 million people that has the resources to pay for their high value products. If they stop trade of humanitarian goods with Iran they will also show that their much vaunted 'values' mean nothing.

The European Union claims that it wants to be an independent actor on the world stage. If that is to be taken seriously this would be the moment to demonstrate it.

Posted by b on October 9, 2020 at 16:37 UTC | Permalink

« previous page

Jackrabbit @ 93 asks "If Putin is so close to Zionists, then why does Russia block the Zionist regime-change in Syria? Why has Russia denied Israel and USA entreaties to allow them to bomb Iran?
Russia Warns U.S. and Israel That Iran Is Its 'Ally' and Was Right About Drone Shoot Down!!

Putin is an appointed player in the nation state system, his job operate the local to Russia nation state, and to do as he is told.. I think to get to bottom of this matter it is necessary to climb to the top.. The answers to your question cannot be found in the chaotic events and collusions between nation states and their greedy opportunistic leaders,

Why Syria, because Syria offers a seaport on the Western side.. because Turkey is a threat to Russian oil interest, because Iraq is threat to Russian oil Interest if Iraq teams with both Israel and Turkey, because major pipelines will someday traverse Syria Haffia to Central Europe, Beubehr (Iran) under the sea through Iraq, Syria, another from Doha, Qatar <=thru Jordan, Syria under the sea to Europe, under the sea to France .and because everywhere the question is framed differently, but the answer is always the same.. Drain the oil from beneath the old Ottoman Empire.. to the center of the earth, and allow everyone to drill from their nation state to take of the oil what they need of it.

Posted by: snake | Oct 10 2020 16:41 utc | 101

Iran is a resource rich country. By that I don’t mean Oil and gas and minerals, which it is. Iran’s best resource is the people of Iran. Here is some of their accomplishments as previously posted here by Dick.
Iranians have been around much longer than the US. Here is a list of Iranian inventions:
• Protocol and Etiquette- rules of respect, cultured civilization, of order and harmony of everyday life.

• Human Rights – 576 B.C. , cylinder of Cyrus the Great

• System of State and Regions – created by Cyrus the Great (Satrap and Satrapies)

• Iran was The First Real Empire

• First Agriculture System -1000 B.C., the Qanat

• Police- first inspectors were “the Eye of the King” created by Cyrus

• Postal Service – by Cyrus the Great

• First Monotheist Religion- 6000 B.C.,

• Alcohol in Medicine – 864 A.D. , by Rhazès Zakarya

• Founder Book of Modern Medicine- 980 A.D, created by Avicenna

• First Teaching Hospital – 271 B.C., intellectual centre teaching philosophy , medicine, theology, science.

• Anesthesia- 1000 A.D. for the birth of Rostam

• Cesarean – 1000 A.D. the earliest file of ceasarean is in the Shah Nameh, Rostam was born this way

• Guitar- 5000 B.C. Gui means three in old persian and Tar means rope, 

• Oldest Ancestor of the Piano – 266 B.C. called tympanon (santur)

• Shoes- 3000 B.C. found in Iran

• Sandals- 3000 B.C.

• Boots- 3000 B.C.

• Trousers- first trousers were worn in the Achemenid period

• Backgammon – 1400 B.C., found in the Sistan-e-Baloutchestan region

• Polo – 521 B.C., persian sport

• Chess – the base of the game invented in India but the evolution was made in Iran

• Poker – 1600 A.D. persian game called “nas”, Iranians showed it to french in louisiana and they showed the game to the world

• Refrigerator- 400 B.C. a large room called YAKCHAL

• Wine – 5400 B.C., Invention of Wine. Discovered in excavations at Hajji Firuz Tepe in northwestern Iran.

• Grape

• Kabab – first kind of kabab was the persian Kabab

• Biscuit, Cookies - 700 A.D.

• Rice

• Ice Cream – 400 B.C.

• Yoghurt

• Battery- 250 B.C. found in Iran

• Coloured Eggs for Easter – Persians first began using coloured eggs to celebrate spring in 3000 BC. 

• Valentines (a day of Love) was first founded by Cyrus the Great

• Air Conditioning

• Windmill – 632 A.D

• Introduction of Paper in Occident – 700 A.D.

• Algebra- 800 A.D. Khwarizmi was an Iranian from Khorassan

• First Attempt to Fly- key kawoos, who fell three times

• Tulip – persian flower

• Rose – persian flower

• Ceramic

• Bazaar

• Thousand and One Nights – stories told by Sharzad

• The Brick – 6000 B.C.

• First Pearls- 5000 B.C. , found in the border of Persian Gulf, a necklace of three lines of pearls

• The Water Bed – 3600 B.C. made of sheep’s skin

• Art of Miniatures – 2600 B.C.

• Chariot – 2000 B.C

And yes, there is an “Iran derangement” syndrome in US, where people go to sleep and dream Iran. They wake up from wet dream of bloody Iranian babies, asking, have we sanctioned Iran enough today?
Not much left to sanction. Let’s sanction the whole economy, they say.
This, too, will make Iran stronger, as it has to look inwards — to it’s people — the best resource.

As for those here saying that there will be an Israeli attack on Iran, I’m calling BS. The entity is NOT outside of the empire and will do what is told, by the master. If there is an attack on Iran (however stupid move, world ending perhaps) it will have to be by the empire itself. The only thing that an Israeli attack on Iran will accomplish is to get the war started. Period. Nothing else, and association of Israel with the start of the war, would be the realization of the entity’s worst nightmare: Jews to the sea.

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | Oct 10 2020 16:52 utc | 102

To _K_C @65 and Circe @87 - since you mentioned my name in vain - you two must be DaNannyHallMonitors here, eh? Always good to see someone doing their job - all knowing,wise and full of....themselves. Attaboy to both of youse!!!
However, as researchers 'youse' failed - and utterly so! Typically off DaTop of your haid analysis worthy of today's analysts - a mile wide and half-inch deep.
Just to help you with some insights to my fundamental premise on Trump - which you categorize as a 'HARD-ON' - that orange headed Bastahd in DaWhiteHouse is the best president since Andrew Jackson!
How's that for HO, eh?
I doubt that either of you would understand why I say that - since you already see all, know all - and little gods unto themselves can't see beyond their own noses.....or hard-ons!

Posted by: Crush Limbraw | Oct 10 2020 16:55 utc | 103

• Algebra- 800 A.D. Khwarizmi was an Iranian from Khorassan

Al Khuarizmi, Algorithm, were Iranians to apply lets say Gates business model, they’d be collecting royalties for every digital device in existence.

Posted by: Paco | Oct 10 2020 17:13 utc | 104


I had the pleasure of working with many students of all ages whose primary language wasn't English in what was often a symbiotic-type of learning/teaching experience. Certainly, do your best to articulate; but what's most important are your ideas, observations, and interpretation of happenings from your perspective which is what makes for a good, productive, educational, discourse. Keep participating and interjecting!!

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 10 2020 18:30 utc | 105

@104 Crush Limbraw

So far 2 for 2 all you proved genius is you meet the single criteria of a Trumpbot--really low I.Q.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 10 2020 18:35 utc | 106

Circe@107 - thanks for confirming my assessment - in fact, since we BOTH did so, it surely is a win-win, eh?
BTW - I try to keep pizzing contests to a minimum - DaWind can shift any minute - so stay dry!:)

Posted by: Crush Limbraw | Oct 10 2020 19:03 utc | 107

North Korea Military Parade 2020

Posted by: Mao | Oct 10 2020 19:25 utc | 108

robin #84

Use search term "us plane downed by Taliban" and you will find many reports and divergent stories. Somewhere in that pile you will find the name of the senior CIA commander.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Oct 10 2020 19:45 utc | 109

karlof1 #42

That's my explanation of how we got to where we are, which also tells us how we can get out of our pickle--the Neoliberal trophic system needs to be broken, hopefully without provoking Nuclear War.

Thank you karlof1, well said. I enjoyed every word of that crafted proposition. May your days be long and joyful.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Oct 10 2020 20:41 utc | 110

Circe # 57

Who wants a bad full moon surprise on Halloween in what's already been a very bad year?!

Thank you for that provocative post. Part 1 was expected but part two was most interesting. I shall watch events closely next week.

Maybe Trump is struck down by a major resignation and treachery. There must be someone in that sad bunch of white house white trash that can outdo Bolt-on. I want to see the US Supreme Court all infected by Amy super spreader. At just the time when the Repugnant loonies have a 'majority' it gets snuffed and then President Karma Harris appoints a court of queers and antifa anarchists. Dare I say - Karma Harris IS the bitch.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Oct 10 2020 21:02 utc | 111

Uncle tungsten @ 112
This ought to do it ——-
Taiwan mc - mr Babylon (music video) YouTube

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 10 2020 21:38 utc | 112

re: the EU

It's always amusing how deeply ignorant a lot people in the so called "West" have become, always calling the EU and the fake Left Democrats in the Western countries "Communists", "Socialists", Marxists" and all other labels. They are neither of the kind. They are Corporatists, pure and simple, being controlled by Corporations. In fact, you can easily call them Fascists, and call their political order Fascism, as how Italy was during WWII.
The other very amusing morons are the Libertarians, who claims if only the government got out of the way, the Corporations will solve all problems, when in fact most governments in the so called West have been taken over by corporate interests around 1980-1990s and now serve the Corporations.
So of course the EU will NOT lift a finger to help Iran. Their current false flage even against Russia shows they are tryign to outdo USA is causing problems for Russia.

What I am really interested in is as to why exactly Merkel decided to create the false flag even against Putin and Russia. Maybe B as a German can get into it and explain it in good detail in a future article. There is no profit in making an enemy out of Russia. Does Merkel need to votes of the Green party to continue be in power? WHat exactly is she gaining with this? She hates USA and Trump. IF anybody has any thoughts about this, I'd be very inetrested in reading them.

Posted by: Hoyeru | Oct 10 2020 21:47 utc | 113

Be aware of the thread that ties Nancy Pelosi -- > Stimulus package, with her insistence on bail-out to struggling states, to anti-Iran/FDD:

Illinois as well as California are two states in most serious financial trouble, mainly regarding unfunded pensions.

In about 2007, Arnold Schwartznegger as governor was proud to proclaim California first state to cooperate with "The Iran Task Force" (precursor to FDD) movement to divest state Teachers and State Employees pension funds from any investments linked to Iran. Iran Task Force published a list of "offending" corporations.

Richard Goldberg was administrative assistant to governor of Illinois when Goldberg cited his signal achievement of making Illinois Iran Frei.

Goldberg is a graduate of Solomon Schecter school(s), a chain of schools whose defining mission is to inculcate in its Jewish students "love of" and support for Israel.

Goldberg has worked closely with John Bolton and may be even more driven to hate and punish Iran than Bolton is

Although Goldberg is not a US government employee, he carries on the tradition established by Israel firster Stuart Levey, who created OFAC in Treasury Dept. specifically to economically cripple Iran.
When Levey resigned to go to HSBC, he handed off his position to his former law partner, David Cohen (Levey & Cohen's law firm had offices in Israel).

Posted by: ChasMark | Oct 10 2020 22:06 utc | 114

m | Oct 9 2020 21:24 utc | 37

Ther is no abligation - neither legal nor moral - for Europe to take the side of Iran in the US-Iran conflict.

The European powers that signed the JCPOA, have obligations to trade with, or at least to allow trade with Iran, or if you say that "they are not stopping anyone else from trading with Iran" the Iranians were royally mislead by the non-US powers when they signed up to the JCPOA. The US is a signatory to the UN and is not living up to its treaty obligations, which damages not only Iran but many other countries as well. By not criticizing the US, its allies, are hurting themselves, their peoples and the peoples of the World, and probably, the people of the US too.

Posted by: foolisholdman | Oct 10 2020 22:38 utc | 115

Mark2 #113

Taiwan mc - mr Babylon (music video) YouTube


Posted by: uncle tungsten | Oct 10 2020 23:38 utc | 116

One thing Iran can do to push back is accelerate the refinement and concentration of nuclear fuel to within reach of weapons grade.

Then threaten to contunue enriching to weapons grade levels if the sanctions are not immediately dropped.

It would be best to do so before the november elections in order to force Trump to make a decision within a short space of time during an inconvenient period.

In all likelyhood he'll either be forced to make an unplanned provocation which would very likely backfire in terms of election results, or be forced to stand by impotently as Iran crosses a nuclear threshold ... Which may have consequences from the Israel lobby.

This may seem risky and excessive, but understand that Iran's entire financial sector has been cut off now. This is usually the last step before kinetic action by the US empire. If Iran has any hope of a deterrent, it lies within nuclear weapons. Any other "softly softly" solution is just prolonged strangulation.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Oct 11 2020 2:14 utc | 117

@ Arch Bungle | Oct 11 2020 2:14 utc | 118 who wrote
If Iran has any hope of a deterrent, it lies within nuclear weapons.

I agree, but have you not been paying attention? Russia has made it clear that Iran is a strategic ally and their nuclear capability will be used to protect Iran, if necessary.

Same situation with Venezuela.

We are seeing empire war attempts being stalemated by the China/Russia axis and the latest sanctions against the Iranian financial sector will just provide more impetus for implementing alternative financial relationships and intermediations that bypass global private finance of empire.

Europe is having the screws put on by dying empire trying to force the wagons of hegemony to circle around the core and join forces to battle the "godless communism" of old/new.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 11 2020 2:41 utc | 118

Iran will never have a nuclear weapon. They have no use case and they understand that and have repeatedly said so.

Any attempt by Iran to increase uranium enrichment in any significant quantity to weapons grade would immediately subject them to attack by the US and Israel. Russia and China would not intervene in that case. Nor frankly, do I believe either country would ever directly intervene militarily against a US attack on Iran, other than supplying weapons and intelligence to Iran, regardless of anyone's belief that Russia would risk nuclear war with the US over Iran, "ally" or not - not all "allies" are equally important.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Oct 11 2020 7:45 utc | 119

RSH @ 120
Your probably right.
But would Trump / America be crazy enough to take that risk ? that gamble?
Considering the high stacks and finality of the consequences.
That’s the whole point of mutually assured distruction as a deterrent.
Basically is Trump insane enough to take the risk of attacking with the chance America would be wiped of the map in hours.
Yes if think Trump is that insane.
Biden not.

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 11 2020 11:21 utc | 120

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Oct 11 2020 7:45 utc | 120

Iran will never have a nuclear weapon.

Neither you, nor anyone on this earth knows this. It is not within your domain of knowing.

They have no use case ...

Their use case is deterrent from annihilation. It is is a compelling use case and a valid one.

... and have repeatedly said so.

What they have said for public consumption is one thing. What they will do in the face of the harsh light of reality is another.

Any attempt by Iran to increase uranium enrichment in any significant quantity to weapons grade would immediately subject them to attack by the US and Israel

I don't think so. I think the same factors that make it difficult to attack Iran now will make it difficult to attack Iran with more enriched fuel.

However, the custom when entering the nuclear weapons club is to detonate one as a warning announcement after a secret enrichment process. That will certainly come as a surprise and prevent any immediate rush to attack Iran.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Oct 11 2020 11:57 utc | 121

Iran doesn't need nukes for the simple reason that Russia has told the Iranians "Save your money. We've got enough nukes to deter Russia's enemies and Iran's."
And nobody is going to attack Iran because "Israel" is the only country that wants Iran destroyed and Iran will blame Those Usual Suspects if it is attacked and punish them SEVERELY. "Israelis" may be arseholes but they're not completely stupid(?).
If the ZOG West is talking up Iran, it's because they're cooking up a half-baked scheme that's got nothing whatsoever to do with Iran.
Iran is perfectly safe and will remain so for the foreseeable future.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Oct 11 2020 12:15 utc | 122

Hoarsewhisperer @ 123
Is correct !
As evedence of this, this morning the British govenment has anouced it will be backing Biden not Trump.
The U.K. Tory’s know Trump is bat shit crazy and have known it for a long long time.
The U.K. European saber rattling toward Iran is just ‘deplomacy’ aimed at both Iran and America.
For the Brits and US Dems it’s about profit! Arms industry profit.
There is no profit in Armageddon!
For the psychopathicly insane that’s not a factor. (Trump)
Vote Trump get conflagration !!

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 11 2020 12:32 utc | 123

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 11 2020 2:41 utc | 119

Russia has made it clear that Iran is a strategic ally and their nuclear capability will be used to protect Iran, if necessary

I've heard mention of this. Some rumours. However I'm aware of no mutual defense pact the Russians have signed with Iran, so Iran is on it's own in that regard.

I'm also aware that Russia itself has a powerful Israel lobby that is likely to put a wrench in any attempt by Putin to come to Iran's aid.

However, that last point should be counterbalanced against the fact that if Iran falls to the Anglo-US-Zionist empire, the way to Russia will be clear ... and Russia is the prize. That might force Russia into a potential conflict in Iran if an American invasion was imminent. Of course bombing a country from afar is different from an invasion.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Oct 11 2020 12:36 utc | 124

I see the ‘Iran needs nukes’ crowd are showing up.
For the umpteenth times, NO, Iran does not need nukes. Also, it does not need a nuclear umbrella from Russia.
Here is the reasoning: when you can blow shit up in the 1200 KM range with the accuracy — shown at Ein al Assad — parking a rocket between two silos — the very range that includes all circling empire’s bases, ships, and assets, you don’t need nukes. That’s MAD, PLENTY MAD.
Lest we forget that there is also a Islamic fatwa against them.
Iranians are not stupid enough to kick a lying dog on it’s death bed.

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | Oct 11 2020 12:57 utc | 125

Pretty soon the arms embargo on Iran will expire. No doubt the first purchases will be S-400's and other very effective defensive weapons.

Posted by: arby | Oct 11 2020 13:14 utc | 126

Some numbers for the reader to assemble into meaning.

UK: 68 million
Iran: 84 million

STEM graduates
UK: 195,000
Iran: 335,000

Iran is still recovering from decades of having the world cop kneeling on their neck, but they are recovering.

What happened when the US sanctioned Russia? Their economy diversified in ways that would have been impossible under the "Free Market™". Where real economic fundamentals (industry and agriculture) are concerned Russia is now stronger due in large part to the sanctions.

What is happening due to US sanctions on China's tech industry? China is now well on their way to developing domestic alternatives to the very highest tech products made on the planet. Prior to the sanctions it was cheaper to just buy these products from existing manufacturers elsewhere due to the enormous investment needed to develop new processes, so under the "Free Market™" China would always lag in these technologies. The sanctions are just the "resistance training" China needs to develop their tech muscles.

Venezuela is still fumbling about under the empire's boot (Latin America doesn't have the academic traditions that Iran inherited from Persia) but at least their domestic agriculture has radically diversified and expanded due to the endless sanctions. Even the shameless liars in the imperial mass media don't bother trying to sell false narratives about mass starvation there anymore.

What doesn't kill me makes me stronger.

It sucks to be under sanctions, but weight training with heavy enough weights to seriously bulk up also sucks. It's exhausting and hurts. It is so much easier to relax on the couch eating corn chips and indulging in fantasy like the empire does, but that behavior turns your country into a feeble and bloated mass of economic lard that cannot even produce sufficient protective masks for itself.

Iran has the human and natural resources needed to build itself up into a key player in determining the course of humanity's development, and the empire's sanctions are actually helping that to become a reality. We'll see how efficiently "Socialism with Islamic Characteristics" can bring that about. Hopefully that will transform at some point into "Socialism with Secular Persian Characteristics" since religion, particularly of the Abrahamic varieties, tends to warp and retard economic development. If these sanctions continue long enough (America doesn't implode in upon itself in the next couple years) and Iran continues to defy the sanctions rather than giving in, then we could see Iran developing itself to economically eclipse the old capitalist economies in Europe. Iran's potential in this regard likely plays a far greater part in the empire's fear of Iran than petty hurt feelings over being chased out in 1979.

Posted by: William Gruff | Oct 11 2020 13:17 utc | 127

Only a small correction/addition in support of Sakineh Bagoom:
It is 2000 km for their longest range weapons and Iran has publicly stated they do not see any point in increasing the range any further.

So not only does Iran not need and not want nuclear weapons but Iran also does not need and does not want further range improvements for their longest range conventional weapons.

That's how silly the US and Israeli claims are.

A search using "Iran 2000 km range" still returns results about the decision from 2017 (I thought it was more recent than that), mostly at US-controlled sites twisting it into a negative or repeating the boring and dumb old narratives.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Oct 11 2020 13:42 utc | 128

Iran has, I believe, launched satellites into orbit. As a practical matter, this mean it has the capability to construct ballistic missiles that would hit anyplace on Earth.

Posted by: Bemildred | Oct 11 2020 14:33 utc | 129

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Oct 11 2020 13:42 utc | 129
Yes, thank you, Sunny. It should have read MI, not KM. A conversion issue.
The question that is never answered by the ‘needs nukes’ crowd is, where would Iran detonate such a device? Tel Aviv? Riyadh?
All measures (sanctions etc) are being put in place to keep Iran backwards. The way they used to have it in shah’s time. It’s not going to work. There is no higher science than splitting atoms. Iran split atoms yesterday. Will do so today, and tomorrow.

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | Oct 11 2020 15:01 utc | 130

Passer by 19 wrote : The EU is trying to prop up the US Empire in response to its decline, instead of trying to free itself.

Looks like it! - Euro Trash. Good list, etc.

However, the EU as an organisation is not as strong, not as monolithic, cohesive, as it might wish to be. (> This allows for much confusion and ‘getting away with stuff’ to the larger and particularly foreign public.)

France and Germany are contemplating new sanctions on Russia for the Navalny ‘poisoning’ - to be discussed at EU level mid-oct. Arm twisting on the way ...

History. Macron, the newbie, after the Skripal Poisoning, said, in terms very strong in diplo-language (exact formulations?) that there was absolutely no reason to blame Russia/Putin, there were no facts, no proof, much time would be required to sort it all out. He changed his tune a few days later (no doubt Angie screamed over the phone) and agreed to the waltz of diplos, purely symbolic - dozens of Russian diplos were expelled, in retaliation others were expelled from Russia, then all of them rotate, get other postings, etc. blah blah.

Nonetheless Macron went to the Footsie Cup July 2018 and sorta tried to chum up with Putin. He was ridiculed for it. (One of the reasons why Fillion, the presumed ‘next’ president of France after Hollande was scuppered by parties unknown, is that he was pro-Russia. We see the same pattern with Trump, who proposed to ally with one other potential super-power, not China. *Russia Hate* endures thru the ages…)

Some countries will bow to the EU directorate if they consider ‘no serious consequences.’ Possibly this was so when the EU declared that they did not consider Lukashenko the legitimate Prez. of Belarus, totally nuts imho, it seems inconsequential to some? - say.

Agreement within Europe (as distinct from the EU, as there are various levels of European ‘belonging’) is not that set in concrete. Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Portugal, Ireland don’t experience WW2 guilt, nor does Greece (!), and the EU is in trouble - Brexit, Greece, Ital/exit mutterings, plus, growing objections, etc.

Posted by: Noirette | Oct 11 2020 15:36 utc | 131

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | Oct 11 2020 15:01 utc | 131

"The question that is never answered by the ‘needs nukes’ crowd is, where would Iran detonate such a device? Tel Aviv? Riyadh?"

As a typical specimen of the 'crowd' you refer to, I always thought 'we' did a good job of specifying where it would be detonated, i.e either:

a) Nowhere, because the objective would be to use it as a 1) deterrent defense and 2) a tool among many to use as a bargaining chip in breaking the ongoing siege which is leading to an inevitable "death by strangulation".

b) On whoever strikes Iran with a weapon of equivalent destructive power first, this being the extreme case - think Israel's Sampson Option.

Primarily, a nuke(s) would allow Iran to say to it's antagonists:

"Ok, your worst nightmare has come true now. Let's see how we can negotiate a better arrangement for all of us now that the nuclear issue is no longer on the table."

Mere of posession of the weapon will change the calculus of the debate between Iran and the West drastically, to the extent there is a debate, putting far more leverage in the hands of Iran.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Oct 11 2020 15:56 utc | 132

Bemildred: true enough but easily used to misrepresent things. I don't think anyone doubts that Iran could make ICBMs if they wanted to.

Sakineh Bagoom: yes the US nonsense is completely pointless from Iran's and many others point of view, it betrays the limitations and pitfalls of US policy and "thinking" more than anything else.

The US always makes these sorts of mistakes against everyone but mostly against themselves. ITAR is perhaps the classic (and ongoing) example.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Oct 11 2020 16:07 utc | 133

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Oct 11 2020 15:56 utc | 133
So the argument is: Iran should bring the wrath of the empire on itself, for something it doesn’t need, to gain a few chips at the bargaining table?
We are way past the point of the table. Didn’t you see Pompeo’s 12 item surrender demand?

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | Oct 11 2020 16:45 utc | 134

@ William Gruff | Oct 11 2020 13:17 utc | 128... thanks wg... that is worth repeating...

@Sakineh Bagoom | Oct 11 2020 16:45 utc | 135... thanks for your comments on this thread.. i agree with your viewpoint!

Posted by: james | Oct 11 2020 16:57 utc | 135

The US is likely to discover its financial wheels coming off in the not that terribly distant future. The US continues to spend money it doesn't have like there is no tomorrow all the while (a) our economy is tanking from Covid and (b) the world moves away from the US$ for its transactions. The Fed can keep the economy afloat with QE and low rates but when the US has to unload the next tranch of its debt, the rates we have to pay will likely be breathtaking.

Posted by: Jeff | Oct 11 2020 17:14 utc | 136

Look up Dr.Mark Skidmore and Catherine Austin Fitts on the true size of US Treasury indebtedness,not the lies
told to everyone.Its near or at $100trn right now,not the only $27trn.UST rollover analysis doesn't lie,but The FedRes and US Treasury have.The how and why isn't worth wasting time on,but the knowledge is.
CAF has lots of foreign subscribers,only the US public is unaware of how much worse the debt problem is.
The REPO problems here last year were likely a direct result of massive UST divestment from using collaterised loans
leaving the collateral uncollected at term,a way to divest the Russians used first when they feared a SWIFT shutout.
The TIC report is total garbage right now,foreign CBs used the Covid established swap lines against USTs to divest as well.Apart from the FedRes,ESF and US pensioners who mandated ,there are no others except proxies of them.

Posted by: winston2 | Oct 11 2020 19:43 utc | 137

132# Noirette

Good comment.

In the Skripals-case Macron changed his opinion in less than 24 hours,overnight,I think he got a call from Boris.

Posted by: willie | Oct 11 2020 20:17 utc | 138

Miss Sakineh,thanks you for your comments as well as Miss Noirette.

I think the Iranians have a different military vision than the western military.The speedboats,the underground missile silos,and probably other features we do not know about.I thought I read on this very website some years ago when Russia launched 26 Kalibr missiles flying through Iranian airspace to Syria from the Caspian Sea,that those kind of missiles could be launched from any small vessel like coasters or fishing boats.If Iran knows that technology as well,it can threaten USA from the Atlantic or Pacific Ocean ,far away from Iran.Washington,Langley ,Los Angeles,San Francisco would be in reach.

Posted by: willie | Oct 11 2020 20:26 utc | 139

willie | Oct 11 2020 20:17 utc | 139

IIRC Theresa May was running the Skripal Show at the time.

Posted by: Lurk | Oct 11 2020 21:11 utc | 140

ARI | Oct 10 2020 3:36 utc | 64

Russia and China can't be counted on to save Iran, which leaves Iran's only chance to prevent an attack to explode a nuclear weapon.

Putin has stated that if Russia or any of her allies are attacked the RF will regard it as a declaration of war. Then in Tel Aviv her stated that Iran was an ally. Iran has a lot of high-explosive ballistic missiles which are very accurate and they have stated that if they are attacked, by anyone they will destroy Tel Aviv and Dimona and all the oil fields and all the oil refineries and all the US military bases and all the US battleships within range (which is growing all the time). So, probably, they do not need an A-bomb.

Posted by: foolisholdman | Oct 11 2020 21:38 utc | 141

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Oct 11 2020 16:07 utc | 134

I was hoping to remove the ICBM issue from the discussion. Bagoom is right, what does Iran need ICBMs for? They are most unlikely to want to get in an ICBM war with anybody, they have no aggressive intentions, are more than adequately able to threaten all those who need to be threatened as it is. I give them high marks for seeing the futility of going beyond an ability to mess up Israel, Riyadh, and UAE good and proper, that is more than enough. They have lots of other, better things to use those resources for.

I only wish our own military planners here were half as sensible, frugal and observant.

Posted by: Bemildred | Oct 11 2020 21:39 utc | 142

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | Oct 11 2020 16:45 utc | 135

So the argument is: Iran should bring the wrath of the empire on itself, for something it doesn’t need, to gain a few chips at the bargaining table?

The argument is:

1) The wrath of the empire is already directed at Iran. That bus has already left the station. It is only a matter of time before that wrath manifests as a full spectrum kinetic assault (of one form or another).

2) The slow but inevitable process of strangulation and "softening up" the US uses against its targets is already well advanced. Under this kind of pressure the risk increases that Iran will become destabilised from within. In this sense the Iranian State is already under attack with a weapon potentially more deadly than a nuclear attack. It NEEDS to break this siege, it is an *existential* threat.

3) Historically, possession of a credible nuclear deterrent has never resulted in an attack on a new nuclear power. It is, looking at the evidence, an effective deterrent and an effective bargaining chip against the US. Therefore, there is no reason to fear possession of a nuclear deterrent will "bring the wrath of empire" down on Iran (any more than it already is raining down).

I seriously struggle to understand the arguments of the "nuclear weapons are not a deterrent" crowd. Their reasoning seems to ignore the reality of actual historical data points that form a very clear pattern: Nuclear Weapons Are a Deterrent Against Imperial Aggression, and serve to level the negotiating field.

Once Iran has nuclear arms it will have the leverage of the EU to not just get lip-service from the Europeans but actual servicing of the terms in the JCPOA. Right now, the EU knows that Iran has no leverage to get them to honour the JCPOA and so they hardly pay it lip service. Their behaviour is likely to change in the presence of leverage.

A related pattern underpinning my reasoning is the observation that War rarely breaks out between powers of more or less equal destructive power but usually between powers where one side is at a significant disadvantage militarily.
This would suggest (plausibly) that Iran's relations with the US would grow more cordial (to the extent any power can have cordial relations with the US) the more it develops it's deterrent destructive power.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Oct 12 2020 0:28 utc | 143

@Noirette (no. 132)

Agreement within Europe (as distinct from the EU, as there are various levels of European ‘belonging’) is not that set in concrete.

This is why I sometimes object to using the term 'Europeans' as a collective term when referring to the governments of the EU nations. For me at least, it raises the question of whether the taxpayers/voters of the EU nations (this may possibly include private business owners) share any responsibility in the events. Some have argued that the EU officials are unelected.

Posted by: joey_n | Oct 12 2020 2:57 utc | 144

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Oct 12 2020 0:28 utc | 144
I’ve shown here that Iran has enough — deterrent power — as you say.
Iran gave the empire a perfect reason (a state to state attack with warning to boot) to hit back on Jan 8 this year. Why did the empire hold back?
It is either that Iran is strong enough or it isn’t. You can’t have it both ways.
Can you name the last country that went toe to toe with the empire and got away with it?

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | Oct 12 2020 3:25 utc | 145

@ Arch Bungle # 144 who continues to posit that Russia has not stated it will respond with nukes to any nuke attack on Iran.

I have not easily found the news clipping reporting on Putin/Russia backing Iran with nukes but will show a quote from MoA in 2109 alluding to such

On the release of the NPR, Putin stated a nuclear attack on an ally would be treated the same as a nuclear attack on Russia, with the Russian honcho in Jerusalem stating clearly that Iran is an ally of Russia.
Trump put out the conventional feelers the other day and got them bitten off, nukes are now out, so he is now calling for a coalition of the killing.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jun 28 2019 7:09 utc | 320
I have wasted enough time with this attempt at misdirection by you. Find another bar to spread your BS in.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 12 2020 5:04 utc | 146

Europe's pandering to the US on Iran just as it previously pandered to the US on Syria egged on by Britain reflects a pairing of EU Foreign Policy with NATO Policy where tupPence and sTrumpet call the shots under threat of withdrawal of US investment from Europe. What no-one in Europe is willing to say is that European Union Companies' Direct Investment in the US far exceeds US Companies' Investment in EU Countries with the real threat being a withdrawal or suspension of EU Investment in America which would cause a collapse of the US Economy and of Wall Street.
It is long past time that someone, somewhere within Europe's Bureaucracy tells Washington that unless America and sTrumpet, egged on by the neoZionist warmongers, back down and reverse this deranged Sanctions "policy" against Iran (and Syria) European Trade and European Investment in the US Economy will shut down North America.
For those who will shout: But what about the damage to Europe! I say that Europe requires calling America's bluff on Iran. If we do this in Europe, America has no option but to back down. If we do not do this, we may as well shut up shop and describe ourselves as Washington's & Israel's plaything.

Posted by: Rasputinish | Oct 12 2020 13:57 utc | 147

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 12 2020 5:04 utc | 147

I have wasted enough time with this attempt at misdirection by you. Find another bar to spread your BS in.

What BS exactly? You're the one with a religious conviction that Putin will come to Iran's aid while being unable to produce any statement other than a quote from some random joe (not Putin) off this very site. I point out there is no mutual defense pact or treaty guaranteeing a nuclear umbrella for Iran but you breeze right past that making proclamations based on faith. Sounds like you should be the one peddling your BS somewhere else.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Oct 13 2020 23:16 utc | 148

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