Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 02, 2020

Navalny Gets Skripaled

Yawn! was my first reaction when I read this. Couldn't they come up with a more believable fairy tale?

The German government says tests performed on samples taken from Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny showed the presence of the Soviet-era nerve agent Novichok.
...
Chancellor Angela Merkel’s spokesman, Steffen Seibert, said in a statement Wednesday that testing by a special German military laboratory had shown proof of “a chemical nerve agent from the Novichok group.”

Novichok, a Soviet-era nerve agent, was used to poison former Russian spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter in Britain. It is a cholinesterase inhibitor, part of the class of substances that doctors at the Charite initially identified in Navalny.

Funny how Novichok, the "military grade", "most deadly" poison, never kills anyone.

Where are, by the way, the Skripals? Will Navalny now get vanished just like they were?

Other questions one might ask (and will never get answered):

  • If the Russian state or "Putin" has poisoned Navalny why was he allowed to be flown out of the country?
  • No traces of any unusual substances have been found by the two Russian laboratories which analyzed the blood of the sick Alexei Navalny. Why?
  • While Navalny was allegedly exposed to such stuff why was no one else around him hurt by it?
  • Why was the German government so eager to get Navalny to Berlin?
  • Who has the lead in this anti-Russian information operation? The MI6, the CIA or the Germany BND?

My sense is that the Navalny incident, or at least what is made of it, is a reaction to the failure of the U.S. run color revolution attempt in Belarus. "Russia" must be punished for this.

The hospital in Omsk still has the original blood samples of Navalny.

Is there a neutral international laboratory that could retest those?

Posted by b on September 2, 2020 at 15:37 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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@198 Arioch

My criteria is: Do what is right and just for humanity. Behave ethically, responsibly and set an example of self-discipline for
all the world to follow.

@199 Hmpf

I think maturity is accepting that the truth may not always appear to be on your side, and so wherever it goes, even to an inconvenient place, you follow it. Otherwise you are either a slave to self-deception or a master of deception.

Posted by: Circe | Sep 3 2020 11:12 utc | 201

I do figure that next time the naive prisoner (Putin) doesn't hand over a pistol to the enemy, just because
he dreams being taken by the enemy as a 'nice guy'.
A simple precaution of inviting a five or six west european doctors or biochemists to examine the scrotumish
in St Petesburg BEFORE any removal to Germany. Or simply putting one thing as condition to the other.
The lesson of Maidan was learned in russian behaviour towards Belarus.
the scripal one was not.

Posted by: augusto | Sep 3 2020 11:42 utc | 202

@ Posted by: pepa65 | Sep 3 2020 9:32 utc | 188

That the BND is ultimately subordinated to the CIA is not in question, but it's different from literally allowing the CIA in German territory. That would be too much even for Germany.

--//--

@ Posted by: bystander 04 | Sep 3 2020 4:27 utc | 165

I'm you must be only referring to the first three Geneva Conventions (1864; 2x1929), as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the fourth Geneva Convention (THE Geneva Convention) didn't exist yet.

It's highly unlikely any belligerent in WWII was worried about these kind of things. The most probable scenario for the "secrecy" of Katyn was because it happened in 1940, and not, say, in 1944. The USSR wasn't invaded by Germany yet (June 1941) and Poland was allied to the British. Stalin probably didn't want some Conservative Prime Minister declare war against the USSR on grounds it was defending Poland.

The Alliance was only really solidified in 1943, when the Americans realized the USSR would win the war against Germany. Until then, the Western liberal powers were more or less in "wait and see" mode, hoping for the Third Reich and the USSR to destroy themselves the most possible. There was a real risk the USSR could be isolated during that war.

Posted by: vk | Sep 3 2020 11:45 utc | 203

"Couldn't they come up with a more believable fairy tale?"

If they actually cared what anyone else thought they more then likely would.
When you want your enemy to understand there will be absolutely no mainstream public outcry or civil unrest due to your policy of 100% lies all the time, you purposely regurgitate comical and easily disprovable narratives in order to spike the ball.

" “We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors ... and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.”
-- Karl Rove(Turd Blossom)

These psychopaths are still acting with total impunity. There's no need to waste time and energy coming up with a believable lie when they can blatantly brag about being above the law.

It's intentional.

Have a great day folks.

Posted by: dave | Sep 3 2020 11:45 utc | 204

from enzyme inhibitor to nerve agent? both the Russian and German hospital diagnosed an enzyme inhibitor that the Germans concluded was poisoning but this is nothing like the pathology of the so-called Novichok which is a nerve agent but no one in the MSM questions this finding.


"The hospital in Omsk still has the original blood samples of Navalny.
Is there a neutral international laboratory that could retest those?"

Forgot the name of the international body that studied the Skripal samples but this is the best they can do.

Posted by: Christian J. Chuba | Sep 3 2020 11:46 utc | 205

Tikhanovskaya should watch carefully what brand of chay she is drinking, the Novichok serial promises new chapters, in spite of the absurdities, or maybe because of them.

Excellent article about Belarus by a retired Australian diplomat:

https://eastwestaccord.com/tony-kevin-why-history-matters-in-belarus/

Posted by: Paco | Sep 3 2020 11:49 utc | 206

uncle tungsten

links to Russian doctors involved in the case or official Russian statements. I believe I have read most, but perhaps have missed one.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 3 2020 11:53 utc | 207

Circe, you speak bold, but there always is that little problem how connect heavens-high demure principles with down to earth actions.

The trolley problem is a series of thought experiments in ethics and psychology, involving stylized ethical dilemmas of whether to sacrifice one person to save a larger number. Opinions on the ethics of each scenario turn out to be sensitive to details of the story that may seem immaterial to the abstract dilemma. The question of formulating a general principle that can account for the differing moral intuitions in the different variants of the story was dubbed the "trolley problem" in a 1976 philosophy paper by Judith Jarvis Thomson.

The most basic version of the dilemma, known as "Bystander at the Switch" or "Switch", goes thus:

There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options:

Do nothing and allow the trolley to kill the five people on the main track.
Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person.
Which is the more ethical option? Or, more simply: What is the right thing to do?
(Wikipedia)

Basically, it is clear example that you can not find a person who always "Behave ethically, responsibly and set an example" except for a person that does nothing at all and never gets into a situation of choosing between too evils.

Sinologist Herrlee Creel considers wu wei, as found in the Tao Te Ching and Zhuangzi, to denote two different things.

1. An "attitude of genuine non-action, motivated by a lack of desire to participate in human affairs" and
2. ...

Such a person truly could be a guiding light for you, a prophet you would "trust" about any situation, to absolve you from making your limited thus risky judgement. Like, about Skripal's and Navalny's "poisoning". Since public information is scarce, contested and often requires deep knowledge of complex biochemistry - it is MUCH safer just to avoid making judgement and just find someone else to "trust" and to have responsible if their assertions wyou would repeat would prove false eventually.

The problem though: the non-action practitioner would NOT make any assertions that you can playback.

And any person that will make decisions and actions will eventually met a situation, where anything they might do or say will be less than 101% ideal, so would be unfit to your guiding light vacancy.

Together, this means the throne would always be vacant and you always would be hungry for a prophet, earthly and heavenly simultaneously, that you can practicalyl use in practical situations. Sad story...

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 3 2020 11:54 utc | 208

Fresh news on the subject:

Omsk Doctors Checked Navalny for Poisoning and Didn't Find Anything, Hospital's Department Head Says

Some here still don't understand: Navalny tested negative for everything. No "novichok", no CI. Nothing.

The are only two possible scenarios:

1) Navalny took insulin in the airplane's restroom, and threw the syringe away in the toilet (hence the investigators found nothing in the plane);

2) Navalny, a diabetic type II, was on a hardcore diet (which is common among some diabetics, and he was very thin when the airplane episode happened) and, while on that, was advised by the BND to to be even more radical (extremely long fasting, even smaller portions of food) in order to time an hypoglycemic episode somewhere after the Belarus color revolution. He overestimated his body and went too far.

--/

Lukashenko Claims Intercept of Warsaw-Berlin Call Shows Merkel Made False Statements About Navalny

The first evidence this is a strictly European affair (as I had already speculated here, based on the low profile kept by the American MSM).

Lukashenko for sure has already shared this piece of intelligence with Putin, hence the Russian Foreign Ministry's confidence (coupled with the Omsk lab tests, which are genuine) on the Navalny imbroglio.

--//--

BONUS NEWS: some here seem eager to search for skeletons in the Soviet closet.

But what about the American closet?

‘Unacceptable’ interference: International Criminal Court objects to US sanctions prompted by war crimes investigation

The US blacklisting of International Criminal Court prosecutor Fatou Bensouda amounts to an “unacceptable attempt to interfere with the rule of law,” the ICC said after US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo announced the sanctions.

Yeah... as the Americans love to say when they do it: "it is what it is".

Posted by: vk | Sep 3 2020 11:58 utc | 209

@ Posted by: Paco | Sep 3 2020 11:49 utc | 206

The assassination of Tikhanovskaya was part of the plan. Lukashenko literally saved her life:

Belarusian security chief says assassination attempt on candidate Tikhanovskaya was foiled (from August 10th)

The very next day (August 11th), she fled to Lithuania. The reason is simple: she wasn't afraid of Lukashenko, but of her own "color revolutionaries"; she quickly realized she was "part of the plan" and not part of the plan, if you know what I mean.

Posted by: vk | Sep 3 2020 12:05 utc | 210

Recent joke.

Novichok is Shroedinger's poison.
Skipal, Navalny - neither dead nor alive, and there is no one who can just open the box and finally find out!

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 3 2020 12:08 utc | 211

[The Alliance was only really solidified in 1943, when the Americans realized the USSR would win the war against Germany. Until then, the Western liberal powers were more or less in "wait and see" mode, hoping for the Third Reich and the USSR to destroy themselves the most possible. There was a real risk the USSR could be isolated during that war.

Posted by: vk | Sep 3 2020 11:45 utc | 203]

Then why would the US sending USSR with gold and not long after, materiels since 1941 via the Lend-Lease Act? The materiels aid was definitely essential in USSR efforts against their Nazi advesary, so if the Allied really wanted to make sure two of them destroyed each other they (or US) should have done less.

Posted by: hangar | Sep 3 2020 12:09 utc | 212

If you want to have a good laugh today:

It’s no wonder Putin thinks he can get away with poisoning his adversaries [WaPo Editorial from today]

Posted by: vk | Sep 3 2020 12:10 utc | 213

Repost here, in case it got buried amongst the myriad of topics in the Week in Review thread, live Zoom confession by ex-US Ambassador to Germany, Richar Grenell, on how they in fact obly Germany to compell with US wishes in foreign policy...Roll down to see more videos on other twisting of arms in other issues...

https://twitter.com/Marwa__Osman/status/1300761701156093952

On the other hand, I have been reflecting on the no-nonsense storm intend of the Bundestag which took place this past day by a group of 200 nazis...
Could it be taking place in Germany an intend of coup d´etat by infiltrated nazi forces into the security apparatus?

If it is happening in the US, one would guess the same forces will be put in place in major allied countries, especially economic powerhouses like Germany, in the verge of the mother of all economic crisis....Bannon tried through elections but failed....

What do you think all these stay-behind forces are being trained for?

https://twitter.com/kooleksiy/status/1289994308628578304

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Sep 3 2020 12:25 utc | 214

@uncle tungsten | 156

Skripal wasn't about gas - Its the most obvious and appropriate comparison, and its the one that hasn't involved a war and its the one you didn't mention.

Maybe it is just more western distraction as is all Russian Bogeyman propaganda and Russia was happy to oblige as it meant getting rid of some loud obnoxious idiots. Is that really beyond the realm of possibility?

Posted by: AtaBrit | Sep 3 2020 12:30 utc | 215

It seesm that OPCW statement on alleged Navalny poisoning has been now deleted ( more twisting of arms of which we already know in this organization? )

Also images on Navalny´s wife and a doctor by the side of Navalny without any protection against "military grade poison"...

https://twitter.com/elenaevdokimov7/status/1301504116129107968

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Sep 3 2020 13:04 utc | 216

@208 Arioch

There's no moral dilemma. Obviously, save as many people as possible. Is the other one person tied up too? If not. They'll hear the train coming and get out of the way. No one stays on a track immobile. Even if they're deaf or blind they'll feel the vibrations. If the person is tied up. Damn. The question is: What led to this fatal decision and how could it have been avoided in the first place?

I too am against hasty judgment, but that's not the Navalny case.

When there's a criminal pattern of behavior and common motive; I don't call this a frame or rushing to judgment.

Criminals adopt a pattern when they get away with a previous crime. They're emboldened to risk it again in the same manner. However, pattern becomes a signature that betrays them.

Posted by: Circe | Sep 3 2020 13:04 utc | 217

…And the Novichok saga continues.
Search: “Wikipedia novichok agents”, go to reference 20. A note from the OPCW refers repeatedly to “toxic chemicals”, never once is the word novichok mentioned. An unreliable citation. It can be difficult to get to the truth, just as falsehoods can be used to further political objectives. History warns that such illusions are dangerous. The West is coming closer and closer to confrontation with China and Russia. Yet leaders are blind to the pattern of history, and how it is leading the world to nuclear war.
https://www.ghostsofhistory.wordpress.com/


Posted by: peter mcloughlin | Sep 3 2020 13:07 utc | 218

It seems that there is a tape of a conversation between German and Polish "partners" debunking Navalny could have been poisoned provided by Lukashenko´s intelligence services...The Russians will unleash this, for what it seems...

Lukashenko stated during his talks with Mishustin that Belarus intelligence wire taped a conversation between German & Polish sides,: "interesting conversation, which clearly indicates that this [Navalny's alleged Novichok poisoning] is a falsification."

https://twitter.com/elenaevdokimov7/status/1301475426901008386

To see where all this play will lead us...Whose credibility will fall?

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Sep 3 2020 13:13 utc | 219

Full court press on BBC using Michael McFaul arguing that this 'evil deed' must be punished and some think tank personage (German Marshall Fund) arguing that Europe should show unity and block completion of Nordstream. Of course the accusation is accepted as fact without a shred of hard evidence - just take our word for it...

Posted by: the pessimist | Sep 3 2020 13:19 utc | 220

> When there's a criminal pattern of behavior and common motive

Sure, there is a criminal pattern of slander against Russia and a common potive of "Rimland uber alles"

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 3 2020 13:26 utc | 221

hm, Lukashenko tries his best, fights for his political existence, he tries to be useful to his Russian handlers.
https://buhbah.livejournal.com/video/album/321/?mode=view&id=709

Posted by: Xpilgrim | Sep 3 2020 13:28 utc | 222

It wouldn't make sense for Putin to poison the guy anyway, since he is not a threat. He is weak opposition, which for Putin is preferable to strong opposition that might coalesce in his absence.

Posted by: Karl | Sep 3 2020 13:29 utc | 223

@ Posted by: Circe | Sep 3 2020 13:04 utc | 217

Your argument would make sense if Navalny was in fact poisoned.

But he wasn't. The Russian lab tests came out negative.

Therefore, there's no moral issue for the simple fact there's no crime to be investigated.

Posted by: vk | Sep 3 2020 13:37 utc | 224

Speculation: Washington discovered Navalny was a double agent, and so decided to cash in its investment. He is now an American hero, but disabled and almost dead, in the hands of the West, as he deserves to be. Or something like that.

Posted by: Peter Duveen | Sep 3 2020 13:45 utc | 225

"Merkel Pressed To Sabotage Critical Russian Gas Pipeline In Retaliation For Navalny "Poisoning""

ZH LINK

Posted by: arby | Sep 3 2020 13:53 utc | 226

> Then why would the US sending USSR with gold and not long after, materiels since 1941 via the Lend-Lease Act?

Posted by: hangar | Sep 3 2020 12:09 utc | 212

What specifically did Soviet Army received?
Some outdated tanks UK refused to use were delivered to Moscow defense in December 1942.
And even that because even blockaded resources-scarce UK decided they were not good enough for them.

Funny thing is, if to open Wikipedia about Lend-Lease one can read:
The USSR was very dependent on rail transport and starting during the latter half of the 1920s[34] but accelerating during the 1930s (The Great Depression), hundreds of foreign industrial giants such as Ford were commissioned to construct modern dual purpose factories in the USSR, 16 alone within a week of May 31, 1929.[35] With the outbreak of war these plants switched from civilian to military production and locomotive production ended virtually overnight. Just 446 locomotives were produced during the war,[36] with only 92 of those being built [after] 1942

If pro-Western Wikipedia needs to count factories built in 1920-s into public image of Lend-Lease - then the case is probably weak.

One may say, that "in total" supply of USA trucks was important for USSR logistics.
But at the same time General Motors truck branded Opel Blitz is rightfully the iconic image of Third Reich logistics effors. If USSR railway factories built in 1920-s and 1930-s are USA help to USSR and are swept under Lend-Lease umbrella, then Opel Blitz belong there too.

---

Would you want to get specific numbers from that article - those are all totals 1941-1945, not by-Month or at least by-Year. How many and which specifically models of American tanks and aircrafts were fighting in Soviet Army hands month by month from June 1941 to December 1942? That is glossed over.

However, even that very Wikipedia article says later: Lend-Lease aid did not arrive in sufficient quantities to make the difference between defeat and victory in 1941–1942;

We may spin it another way: Until USA was sure USSR would surivive - they did not invest into USSR.

From RBTH: The U.S. believed that the USSR had to pay $1.3 billion, yet Soviet government officials said they could only pay $170 million. ... But in 1993 the Russian government announced its succession to the debts and soon paid for all the goods that the USSR had received in accordance with the Lend-Lease bill.

So yes, it was investment no less than aid.
And it is natural you would not want to invest into entity, that will not return you profits.
It is normal.
Just do not talk about profits and altruistic help in the one same line.

> The materiels aid was definitely essential in USSR efforts against their Nazi advesary

Important, as any additional resources you can get during total war.
But were there absolutely required?

The strategic fork was would Their Reich enforce the typical European "blitzkrieg" - and then USSR is done for good, or would USSR enforce typical Russian war of attrition - and then Europe would slowly but surely get suffocated like it was in 1812 and in 1609?

By winter 1942/1943 the blitzkrieg last efforts were exhausted, the war turned from the strategy benefitting european armies to the strategy benefitting soviet army. It was then USA got assured at their ROI and started investing into USSR at large.

> so if the Allied really wanted to make sure two of them destroyed each other they (or US) should have done less.

Why? to make sure Third Reich would squash USSR overnight and come out mostly unscathed???
Don't you remember Operation Pike was called off to avoid weakening USSR?
Didn't USA after WW2 leased weapons to BOTH Israel and Egypt ?

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 3 2020 14:01 utc | 227

Posted by: vk | Sep 3 2020 13:37 utc | 223

Of course the samples are clean because they were taken before he was placed on a ventilator. When he was placed on the ventilator the doctors administrated certain drugs, which contained guess what? Cholinesterase inhibitors. How long can they keep this charade up?

Posted by: One Too Many | Sep 3 2020 14:04 utc | 228

@Ian Perkins. 175

Dawn Sturgess, a drug addict, probably died from taking contaminated Class A drugs. Around the time of her death, the Wiltshire Police were circulating warnings on social media about a batch of contaminated hard drugs and about cuckooing in the area. As far as I can recall, it was only after her death and a second search of her home that the notorious perfume bottle was discovered sitting in plain sight in the kitchen.

Posted by: cirsium | Sep 3 2020 14:04 utc | 229

This guy has so many business enemies i think putin is oj the bottom of his list of problems

Posted by: Bob | Sep 3 2020 14:11 utc | 230

@ Posted by: Arioch | Sep 3 2020 14:01 utc | 226

Yep. The reason the USA went serious about the Lend Lease to the USSR post-1943 is very straightforward: they wanted a place at the table of the victors in the European theater (i.e. avoid the complete conquest of the European Peninsula by the USSR).

The USSR didn't have much of a choice because, first of all, it saved a lot of Soviet soldiers' lives, and, second, the USA had already consolidated its domination over the entire North Atlantic (and the UK already was firmly in American hands). Plus, to colonize the entire Peninsula would be a near to impossible task, as it was (still is) a melting pot. Plus, the Americans could still (which indeed happened) invade Italy and take North Africa (creating a southern flank to the expanded USSR) etc. etc.

The WWII was gift from Heaven to the USA. It was literally the best possible scenario for the Americans. It solved all its domestic and international problems (in exchange of gaining only one: the communist threat). It managed to, in a comfortable position, strike a bilateral surrender deal in the European theater while striking a unilateral (sans-USSR) surrender deal in the Pacific theater (against Japan). As a result, the USA emerged the war as not only being the only superpower with its infrastructure and population intact, but also in complete control of both the Pacific and the Atlantic.

Posted by: vk | Sep 3 2020 14:20 utc | 231

People wishing Navalny well must now be in deep sorrow. The last time the Russians allegedly poisoned someone it didn't work out well for them after their recovery, They vanished from Great Britain's soil. They had done their job, Russia was blamed and punished without a shred of evidence. They could disappear from this earth. Now they are somewhere, incommunicado, if still alive. When Navalny disappears after leaving hospital, there is no reason to be sad. A racist ("people from the Caucasus are cocroches") Western tool less.

Posted by: Michael Skoruppa | Sep 3 2020 14:22 utc | 232

Seems this would be about NS2?
The claims do not need to be credible - that's merely a formality in order to set in motion the desired bureaucratic processes for the empire to act.

I wonder is the Prince/Princess moving to Hollywood - is that an attenmpt to reconquer what's left of the U.S.?

Posted by: jared | Sep 3 2020 15:33 utc | 233

on the diabetes topic

quick glance in Russian shows for example lenta . ru/news/2020/08/21/diabet

the media is not very reliable, quoting a politicians socialite, Reality TV host, not opposition politicians (and some think she wants to dethrone Navalny from opposition media limelight), allegedly in some chat, saying she got the message from an unnamed "doctor's daughter".

if that counts anything more than a gossip is for anyone to decide.

the wording (if there is any sense to parse exact wording of a gossip) mean more that "doctors suspect Navalny may have diabetes" rather than "doctors know Navalny has diabetes and suspect aggravation of it"

OTOH why any mention of diabetes, assuming it is real one, should be there on internet?
do many of people have fad to publish all their diseases for the whole world to read about, just because they have them?

I may understand it when some McCain reports about his cancer and surgery, you can not conceal hospitalization, and so risky one at that. But why should a politician talk about some disease that does not limit his public life at all, at least yet?

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 3 2020 15:47 utc | 234

@232 The reverse I think. More like Hollywood attempting to take over the royal family. They've been working on it for years.

Posted by: dh | Sep 3 2020 15:48 utc | 235

> Reality TV host, not opposition politicians

read: NOW opposition politician

personally, Xenia Sobchak

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 3 2020 15:48 utc | 236

@ the pessimist | Sep 3 2020 9:05 utc | 185

The Navalny case is now being explicitly linked to Nordstream and reported by the BBC with people saying the west needs to hit Putin where it hurts by preventing the completion of the pipeline.

The Navalny case is now being explicitly linked to Nordstream and reported by the BBC with people saying the west needs to hit Putin where it hurts Germany's industry by preventing the completion of the pipeline.

There, fixed that for you.

The British deep state has been trying to make Germany and Russia get into each other's hairs for more than a century. This fits the pattern.

Posted by: Lurk | Sep 3 2020 15:58 utc | 237

re. NS2
Clearly it would be an attempt to remove the issue from Merkle's control.
Foreign interference, soft coupe, etc.

I think the Donald should make a friendly offer of some decent poison.
Right after the pardoning of Snowden - question should be will Snowden pardon the U.S.?

Posted by: jared | Sep 3 2020 16:14 utc | 238

Interesting to consider the prospect of Germany allied with Russia.
Germany - China - Russia - Iran.

Posted by: jared | Sep 3 2020 16:20 utc | 239

@Xpilgrim
Isn’t whataboutism a Soviet technique?

Posted by: wj2 | Sep 3 2020 16:46 utc | 240

Re:title
reminder that verbing weirds language.

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Sep 3 2020 16:49 utc | 241

The first thought that came to mind was this. Will Navalny be disappeared too? Funny how they use their own. So, have the Skripal's been awarded an unlimited line of credit, plastic surgery, new ID's, then allowed to rejoin society at their leisure? Or, have they been killed, or secretly incarcerated, for their part in this theatre.Either way they are the ultimate loser. And, how much more can the public take? It's obvious that we are feared. Otherwise why go to the trouble. Now, if only we the people awoke to the fact that we are powerful. Several million marching on the streets of DC or NYC would send a powerful message. Maybe?

Posted by: joetv | Sep 3 2020 16:51 utc | 242

This "poisoning" is so patently absurd it is painful to discuss, but apparently we must. It is ridiculous to think, even if poisoned, that the Kremlin would be involved, as Navalny was a very dim star who was already falling fast of his own accord--plus, as with the Skripal nonsense, the timing couldn't be worse in relation to the Nordstream II completion (which the US had sworn to stop by any means necessary). Yes, Navalny had enemies galore, but not the Kremlin and the logistics involved in a poisoning, as others have noted, would have made a teatime poisoning the least likely time and way to whack him.

The first clue it's BS is poisoning in general, and "Novichok" in particular. Again, the logistics of any poisoning would make it about the most complicated possible way to make an attempt on him, and a nerve agent would have had him in convulsions before he could set down his tea cup, and dead minutes later. But the western intelligence services did learn something from Skripals. That case bore all the hallmarks of an MI6 op worked up on the fly--even the Brits surely aren't that incompetent. In hindsight, it was probably a hastily thrown together op to prevent the Skripals from passing information (about Steele or PD false flags in Syria?) to the two Russians sent to retrieve it; or the two agents were bringing visas, etc. for Skripal to be repatriated to Russia where he could give such info. At any rate, they were hastily tranquilized, under the watchful eye of Her Majesty's head nurse, so they could be whisked from the scene. It was only then that some boffin noted that it would be a great time to jack with the Russian-hosted World Cup, as well as reinforce support for sanctions which was fading fast. This explains the ever-evolving fairy tale--it was made up as it went, and changed every time someone pointed out a logical impossibility.

A big mistake that was made was to actually send purported blood samples to "independent labs" and otherwise involve scientists with at least some professionalism. They first declined government pressure to specify it was a "Russian nerve agent," and later a whistle blower leaked that the tests showed both appropriately degraded tranquilizer and pristine novichok-type agent. Embarrassing, but luckily the press was on orders to report nothing, so that died. But the lesson was learned. So now, when an agitation is needed as a last resort to thwart NS2, this is trotted out again. Only now note that it is a pure accusation and demand that the Kremlin prove its innocence. Independent tests? I can't imagine there have been any tests at all in Germany...remember, tests could lead to a whistleblower. The accusation is enough, and the precepts of presumption of innocence and ability to see the evidence and confront accusers are completely ignored, as any of those could lead to a quick debunking. In a way, Novichok accusations have become the perfect PR weapon--no evidence required, and no good way for Russia to prove the negative.

The fact that Navalny set the stage with previous remarks implying that he might be a target, and Germany having such a prompt and complete plan means this was a pre-meditated op. Either Navalny knew (from experience?) that his health condition made him susceptible to a medical emergency if he intentionally starved himself, or more likely since he had a timely trip to the toilet he had been provided with something he had been assured would make it look like he was having a medical emergency, and to play it up when he felt it coming on. They couldn't avoid him receiving brief treatment in Russia, but obviously it was pre-planned to extricate him as quickly as possible. And why to Germany? I don't think this was about Belarus, simply because that was more of a color revolution lite that actually went slightly better than expected by the West, but I'd say they were really assuming they'd take a sustained operation to bring down Lukeshenko. Remember, the Ukraine color revolutions started clear back in 2004, but then waxed and waned before the coup de gras was administered ten years later. And if this was really the focus, why not have him flown to Poland? No, most of what the US demands of its underlings is related to money, and the NS2 was the most pressing issue and the one most related to Germany. I do think trying to throw a wrench in Russia's Sputnik vaccine is a happy bonus, but again Germany wasn't threatening to buy that vaccine, so if that was the #1 cause why wasn't Navalny flown to England (home of the actual vaccine competitor)?

It is not out of the question, as William Gruff posited, that the Germans are just playing along with this MI6/CIA plan, because orders, but won't actually follow through with NS2 disruption. But Merkle is clearly co-opted (remember how she was positively enraged when Obama's NSA was caught tapping her private phone, and threatened all kinds of things, but a couple of days later suddenly went silent and everything was fine? Clearly they have whatever they need on her). Should be interesting.

Posted by: J Swift | Sep 3 2020 17:15 utc | 243

J Swift I recall though that the day before Navalny had said that he did not think Putin considered him a threat.
I think the role of Navalny himself can still range from just a health problem over being poisoned/drugged by others to being complicit.

I'd be careful about the weight attached to western ties.

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Sep 3 2020 17:37 utc | 244

It doesn't need to be believable. All they need is enough scare propaganda to make it impossible for Trump to meet with Putin at the UN this month, for fear of blowback on his campaign, which relies heavily on redneck Russo- and Sinophobia, which the Narcissist-in-Chief regurgitates from the same "intelligence community" orchestrating the coup against him. As US "deplorables" rage against "Deep State" efforts to topple their leader, they buy into the outside enemy narrative coming from those same "people in dark shadows" to advance the deathbed agenda of Mackinder geopolitics and strangle any alternative in the cradle.

Posted by: Gatopardo | Sep 3 2020 18:38 utc | 245

"I trust 100% more german official that Putin labs and no all news that are not in favor of Putin is CIA/Mossad/M6 plot. Russian labs provided the stuff to cheat in Olympic games, denied when caught."
Posted by: murgen23 | Sep 2 2020 21:03 utc | 104
...

"- expecting test results from Russian laboratories that are not manipulated by the Kremlin? A bit naive, are you?
- a Pussy Riot member - another discredited Kremlin person perhaps? - was saved in this same hospital a few years ago, also after being poisoned and offerded the same live saving solution for
- the only operation that happened is the poisoning of Navalny and the on going operation saving his life medically and protecting him from more danger"
Posted by: Vladimir | Sep 2 2020 22:19 utc | 124
...

Whoa I think you guys are on to something here.

Latest Intel states their are Spetsnaz Sleeper Cells worldwide just waiting for direct orders from Putin himself to activate. Both Wa. Post and NY Times have reported this. Watch your backs- they may be crawling through your bedroom windows as we speak! They just might Novachick you with Covid-19.

If you feel unsafe- come to America. We can arrange accommodations, you may have to share a tent together under the freeway at a homeless camp. Oh and watch out for all those used heroin needles labeled "Made In Afghanistan".

Posted by: CitizenX | Sep 3 2020 18:41 utc | 246

b
"No traces of any unusual substances have been found by the two Russian laboratories which analyzed the blood of the sick Alexei Navalny. Why?
The hospital in Omsk still has the original blood samples of Navalny.
Is there a neutral international laboratory that could retest those?"

Anything absorbed by the gut goes to the liver. If the brit chemical targets the liver, it may well stay there and not be seen in the blood. A number of trace element levels can only be tested for by liver biopsy. Russia should have kept his liver for study.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 3 2020 19:07 utc | 247

BBC today

Alexei Navalny: Germany urges EU action over Novichok poisoning


A top ally of German Chancellor Angela Merkel has warned that the EU risks becoming irrelevant if it fails to act against Russia over the poisoning of opposition politician Alexei Navalny.

Norbert Röttgen said a major gas deal with Russia must now be reconsidered.

Posted by: Tee | Sep 3 2020 19:08 utc | 248

Yanks running around playing toy soldiers again.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-belarus-election-us-lithuania/u-s-troops-to-start-extended-exercises-in-lithuania-amid-tensions-over-belarus-idUSKBN25U1W6?il=0
"However, the troops are arriving earlier and staying longer than the government had indicated before the outbreak of protests in Belarus over the Aug. 9 election that returned President Alexander Lukashenko, a key ally of Russian leader Vladimir Putin, to power.

Lukashenko has denied accusations by the Belarus opposition and Western countries that the vote was rigged and has resisted protesters’ demands to step down. He has accused NATO of a military buildup near Belarus’ borders, something the alliance denied, and has said he will ask for Russian military help if needed."

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 3 2020 19:19 utc | 249

https://tass.com/world/1197157
"The North Atlantic Council at Ambassadorial level will meet at NATO Headquarters in Brussels on Friday 4 September 2020," the statement reads.

The NATO statement does not specify the topic of the meeting; however, it informs that the event will be translated into Russian.

For its part, Bloomberg news agency reported that the participants of the meeting are set to discuss the alleged poisoning of Russian opposition figure Alexei Navalny."
..............

Looking at links others have posted, it does look as though the target of the navalny show is nordstream.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 3 2020 19:25 utc | 250

"Whoa I think you guys are on something here."

Fixed that.

Posted by: wut | Sep 3 2020 19:37 utc | 251

Seeing a pattern in these ridiculous claims is apparently making us all Putin bots. Who knew you must throw common sense and reason into the trash to be a true blue lover of freedom in the free land of the free? So much for freedom, there is a pig head on a stick in the woods and that biden diaper on your face is cutting off oxygen you desperately need.

Posted by: wut | Sep 3 2020 19:42 utc | 252

Pompeo stated they would do whatever it takes to stop Nord Stream 2...

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Sep 3 2020 19:49 utc | 253

Don't know if this was posted to the open thread as I haven't looked there yet having just come online. Lukashenko says Minsk intercepted chat proving Navalny’s poisoning was utter fabrication." Now that will throw a massive spanner into NATO's meeting tomorrow. And apparently there are other goodies in the intercept too.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 3 2020 20:38 utc | 254

AtaBrit #215

Skripal wasn't about gas - Its the most obvious and appropriate comparison, and its the one that hasn't involved a war and its the one you didn't mention.

Yes I excluded the Skripals as they are not nations involved in mining or transiting gas. They may have been mining and transporting intelligence or a problem component of the Steele dossier and thus served two purposes for perfidious Albion.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 3 2020 21:27 utc | 255

cirsium #229

Dawn Sturgess, a drug addict, probably died from taking contaminated Class A drugs. Around the time of her death, the Wiltshire Police were circulating warnings on social media about a batch of contaminated hard drugs and about cuckooing in the area. As far as I can recall, it was only after her death and a second search of her home that the notorious perfume bottle was discovered sitting in plain sight in the kitchen.

Two weeks after the first search the police 'dicovered' a bottle of top line perfume at the washbasin/bathroom (from memory). Her partner said he scrounged it out of a bin ! the cellophane wrapper fully intact. Those cunning Russians can even sneak poison into a fully sealed perfume bottle - inside a box - inside a cellophane wrapper - horrors, we'll all be ruined.

Merkel has made a fool of herself.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 3 2020 21:38 utc | 256

When you listen to the BBC commentary about the issue they state "Of course Russia denies involvement because they always do in these cases" [but we right thinking people and you, our intelligent and right thinking audience, all know that the Russians lie about everything] and the corollary assumption [we would never lie to you and everything we say is the gospel truth] is unstated but implied and assumed.

Underlying assumptions are never questioned and statements by officials that are entirely free of supporting evidence become 'facts' that nobody should think of questioning.

Posted by: the pessimist | Sep 3 2020 21:41 utc | 257

... and the idea that Russia would ask for evidence to back up the claims is dismissed as stonewalling and silly - because the 'facts' have already been publicly stated by our spokespeople, no further investigation needed. Consistent MO

Posted by: the pessimist | Sep 3 2020 21:46 utc | 258

@ Tee | Sep 3 2020 19:08 utc | 248

Norbert Röttgen said a major gas deal with Russia must now be reconsidered.

Röttgen is the deputy chairman of "Atlantik Brücken" (Atlantic Bridge) and has tried on earlier occasions to torpedo ns2. He was notably the first minister in 7 years of Merkel's reign to be sacked by her, forcefully, after his unilaterally declaring a state election (which he dramatically lost) to be a referendum on Merkel's euro politics - not a lot of love lost between the two of them, I guess. He also likes calling Assad a "monster" and has expressed his affections for "coalitions of the willing and capable". And he doesn't like embargoes on selling weapons to Saudi Arabia. But he wants you to think of him as a liberal and green kind of guy.

Posted by: Lurk | Sep 3 2020 21:47 utc | 259

Peter AU1 #247

Russia should have kept his liver for study.

That would have finished Navalny off and saved all conjecture.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 3 2020 21:53 utc | 260

Lol uncle tungsten, and Peter AU1 please don't feel bad, it's so easy to forget he is supposedly still alive I completely missed what uncle tungsten is pointing out until he did :D

- - - - -

Arioch thank you for such an excellent name and definition; Shrödinger's poison (or Shroedinger or Shrodinger), a much better name than "novichok" :D

Shrödinger created his famous cat example to show how silly the quantum world seems, now he could use such a silly poison in the same way.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Sep 3 2020 22:10 utc | 261

Silly me! I thought the message intercept news would generate some further chatter and a look into the Poles involvement. Oh well!

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 3 2020 22:23 utc | 262

Good find karlof1!

I've been away for most of the day. Just catching up now.

That intercept might be as explosive as Nuland's "F*ck the EU!"

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 3 2020 22:45 utc | 263

Uncle Tungsten @ 256:

I do recall reading somewhere (but forget the source) that at the time the Skripals collapsed in The Maltings, Salisbury General Hospital was on the alert for a fentanyl addiction epidemic. Early reports had stated that the Skripals were initially treated for suspected fentanyl overdoses, although once news got out that Abigail McCourt had been nominated for a bravery award by her mother Alison (no less!) for alerting mum's attention to the collapsed couple on the park bench, those reports must have lost their credibility.

You'd have thunk that in the recent BBC tear-jerking travesty "The Salisbury Poisonings", which for some reason was stretched into a 4-part sappy soap opera on SBS, the script-writing class (with two Guardian journalists as consultants) could have got the "I was a teenage frontline emergency worker risking my life" angle correct.

BTW for those who have not heard of "cuckooing": this refers to drug dealers taking over a client's house to carry out deals. Apparently this is a common practice in SE England. Google references to cuckooing are nearly always derived from English and (in particular) Essex-based sources.

Posted by: Jen | Sep 3 2020 23:16 utc | 264

karlof1@262 both subjects have been posted to the thread and discussed. As for the intercept - no details that I have seen so far, just a statement that the conversation was recorded. There is an article on Poland and Lithuania posted over at the saker.

Posted by: the pessimist | Sep 3 2020 23:33 utc | 265

PeterAU 250

Indeed,just two hours ago driving home from rehearsal I heard the news flash,the main issue being the tomorrow NATO gathering in Brussels over the Navalny poisoning.It is unequivocally been proven a form novichok said the French newsreader.This was after an hour of
the FranceInter romanticized story with musical effects about the Litvinenko poisoning with timeline and detailed description of his ailments and agony.Plus a connaisseuse of the case who made pictures about other evilrussian feat like the war in Chechnya.All this around 23h30.And there was KGBFSB in every third sentence.
Yes they are propping it up heavily.To what end?

Posted by: willie | Sep 3 2020 23:49 utc | 266

Karlof1 "254

Thank you Karlof1 (64)for the very interesting link.
This is shattering,but how about the media will not mention it.
This happens often,remember the pressconference with the alleged chloride poisoned kids from Douma.In relation with that some OPCW reunion where russians tell their truth but are ignored.MH17 etc.If the media talk about it at all,then by mouth of some inside defense expert who offers this to the public as a joke by His Dictatorness.Look how crazy he is Luckyshenko (laughs)...

Actually in the Tass-article you link to,he comes over as fairly clever.

Posted by: willie |

Posted by: willie | Sep 4 2020 0:16 utc | 267

Should'nt that be "comes across"?

Posted by: willie | Sep 4 2020 0:17 utc | 268

Willie: both are used, and mean the same :) (at least as far as I know).

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Sep 4 2020 1:07 utc | 269

How very clever of the Russians to feed him that poison and then ship him off to Germany. And what is wrong with that poison? It never kills. Even rat catchers are more skilled at poisons than the mighty Putin. How amusing! Now here is a prediction: The Nord Stream deal may be coming off. Merkel has an out: how can she deal with the wicked Russians who go around poisoning people?

Posted by: amused n LOL | Sep 4 2020 1:08 utc | 270

When Lenin and crew discovered the Secret Treaties between the Entente and published them in 1918, the denials would have come fast and thick just as they do today. We who are independent students of history and contemporary events know well which bloc is manifestly evil in its actions and intent--Full Spectrum Domination of the Planet and its Peoples. As mentioned above, we all know about the infamous Nuland tape and others of that ilk. We also have the Wikileaks catalogue trove of secret communications that prove the lies told for public consumption. The upshot is the West has Zero Credibility--NONE--and I could construct a very long list of its many crimes over the centuries. But it seems the time has arrived for a bloc of nations to stand up and call a halt to the Outlaw US Empire's insanity, which differs little from Hitler's. Later this month, the annual UNGA Debate commences on the 22nd; it will be of great interest if the representative of Iran is allowed to enter the Outlaw US Empire to deliver the views of that nation. IMO, the Turning began at this event last year, and I anticipate more of the same.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 4 2020 1:42 utc | 271

Criminals adopt a pattern when they get away with a previous crime. They're emboldened to risk it again in the same manner. However, pattern becomes a signature that betrays them.

Posted by: Circe | Sep 3 2020 13:04 utc | 217

It doesn't need to be believable. All they need is enough scare propaganda to make it impossible ....
Posted by: Gatopardo | Sep 3 2020 18:38 utc | 245

Yup. This is a signature pattern. Creating beastly enemies, or more precisely, the image of such enemies has so many benefits for the powers in the West that latching on one or two never gives a full picture. If you can get away with it -- sufficient discipline among media bosses etc -- the lack of plausibility is actually beneficial.

While a government may bungle this or that, military budget is a total waste, much larger resources channelled to medical care have a waste component that dwarfs the military budget, industrial jobs are evaporating and gig economy jobs create so-called precariat, but the governments deliver what is most important: defend their counties from unspeakable evils. Those efforts could not be complete without witch hunting, identifying and neutralizing those who consort with Evil and are converted into tools of Evil. But how can you tell if a witch is indeed a witch?

Here shoddy propaganda helps. You see, in counting witches, algorithms are deployed to count those who doubt the propaganda. Good quality hoaxes would have fewer doubters, and the statistics would not paint a sufficiently dire picture. But according to witch hunter, Putinbots and other netherworld creature literally flooded the social networks with doubtful tweets and other post doubting the official Western scenario of Skripal poisoning. As a common citizens, you may be spared being poisons, but anyone can be accosted by trolls and similar creatures (Pookahs?). Mind you, while shoddy, details should be plentiful and confusing, so the majority can be desirably scared or at worst, placid -- too complicated for me to understand.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Sep 4 2020 4:22 utc | 272

https://rusreinfo.ru/fr/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/navalny-actedevente.jpg?v=1598210266&fbclid=IwAR0m5K-i1KsqkzWPgNVVq0A2KMqE_G5KTTrno_0UtrIRJzgTzgP8JKgsmco

So Herr Navalny bought a 3 million property in Haute-Savoie in september 2016,to retreat to if ever he comes to his senses again...

Posted by: willie | Sep 4 2020 7:38 utc | 273

Arioch thank you for such an excellent name and definition; Shrödinger's poison

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Sep 3 2020 22:10 utc | 261


Not mine, liberalyl borrowd it from special-i-st .livejournal .com/694304 .html

But i enjoy the definition no less than you, it truly was brilliant :-D

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 4 2020 9:17 utc | 274

Jen #264

I do recall reading somewhere (but forget the source) that at the time the Skripals collapsed in The Maltings, Salisbury General Hospital was on the alert for a fentanyl addiction epidemic. Early reports had stated that the Skripals were initially treated for suspected fentanyl overdoses, although once news got out that Abigail McCourt had been nominated for a bravery award by her mother Alison (no less!) for alerting mum's attention to the collapsed couple on the park bench, those reports must have lost their credibility.

You'd have thunk that in the recent BBC tear-jerking travesty "The Salisbury Poisonings", which for some reason was stretched into a 4-part sappy soap opera on SBS, the script-writing class (with two Guardian journalists as consultants) could have got the "I was a teenage frontline emergency worker risking my life" angle correct.

Thank you Jen.

Salisbury and surrounding villages had been the locale for a broad Chemical and Biological Warfare exercise for some days (weeks?) prior to the two Skripals being 'assassinated'. The district hospital was engaged in that military exercise. There is a separate closed ward within that is permanently prepared and that's where the Skripals were quickly accommodated. I assume that ward is a risk management function should Porton Down (on the outskirts of Salisbury (?) suffer a major human error.

The coincidences for the Skripals were mighty and I assume the Godess Serendipity had paid a visit.
They had grabbed their novihoax greasy front door handle and tootled off to the cemetery at 9 am, then returned and prepared to go to the village for lunch (the devlish cunning Russians had developed a time delay chemical you see).
They fed ducks with those same hands that had touched their front door handle, they gave bread to the two children so they could feed the ducks.
No ducks died.
No children died (in fact it took the police days or a week to get round to visiting the kiddies and their parents).
They actually made it to the Italian piza palace without succumbing to the most deadly chemical weapon on earth.
Through the entire hour long lunch they soldiered on revealing no symptoms (other than Sergei being bad tempered).
They then sauntered off to the Maltings pub pee'd and drank a fine house white then bolted fast to finally collapse on the bench to be discovered by...
The teenage heroine who's mum is the N0.1 CBW Military Nurse in the Englander lands. They both rendered assistance.
The hospital was fully prepared.
The district had just the day before completed its CBW Military exercise.
The hospital was able to recruit the highest order technical advice from Porton Down as two of its senior medical people were in the Salisbury village.
and
The entire network of CCTV was unable to record a milisecond of these events other than the Russian tourists at the train station.

Its just unbelievable.

And yes, fentanyl deaths and od's were commonplace in Salisbury and probably still are.

I get the impression that Sergei and Yulia outsmarted the MI6 lads and something unexpected went down at the Malting pub (that was closed for months after). So they were attacked, sprayed by a passer-by wearing a mask (one is reported), and more than likely they were 'fentanyled' to get them out of circulation. The wholly staged Yulia interview was ridiculous and perhaps she was unaware of what the next part of the State plan might be.

I doubt that they are anywhere other than in a special purpose prison estate in the South East of England. Consider what the englanders are doing to Julian Assange right this very moment and have no doubt of the depths of the englander states mendacity.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 4 2020 9:32 utc | 275

Jen #264

oops and on your point regarding where you may have read about the story: perhaps it was at theblogmire.com

There are other detailed records of that blog and its Skripals story scattered around the various bloggers there. They are remarkably tenacious investigators and unraveled many shrouds wrapped around the enigma. There is a mighty detailed analysis within that record.

Here is an update at theblogmire

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 4 2020 9:46 utc | 276

karlof1 #262

Silly me! I thought the message intercept news would generate some further chatter and a look into the Poles involvement. Oh well!

I was surprised at the intercept story in that I cannot imagine any German State official trusting any technological security system the Poles might have (assuming they had connected it up that is). These two relic nazi states are probably more inflated with hubris than even the USA.

I will be more prepared to comment after reading an actual translation end to end. I don't actually trust Lukashenko to play it straight right now as he too is between a rock and a hard place.

I do trust the BND and its grubby relationship with the CIA to be fully driving Merkel to the goal they plan for. So here are a couple of links dating back to when the initial scandal erupted:
DW in January 2020 and here at Politico 2015

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 4 2020 10:12 utc | 277

Oh! This angle...
Why not, indeed?!!

seva-riga .livejournal .com/982595 .html

Calm down! Cut it off! Full stop!!!
Now, seriously. Drop emotionalizing, let only the facts remain. Sad and even freightening facts.
Would we filter out all the propaganda noise from "our Western partners" what would remain?
The dry extract is simple: as witnessed by German cancler someone had ATTACKED RUSSIA WITH WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION (chemical weapons like Novichok is WMD).

By miraclously lucky conincidence, only one single person was harmed, the leading politician or the century glorious mr. Navalny.
.....

That could have been an interesting spin. Indeed, doesn't WMD attack authorize Russia to strike back, including her own WMD ?

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 4 2020 10:16 utc | 278

AND in addition to my above comment - is it a criminal offense in Germany to commit acts of sedition?
And if so when was the last time such law was applied?

It does seem to me that the right of the head of state to make treaties and commercial contracts with other nations is being traduced by the BND.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 4 2020 10:16 utc | 279

Arioch #278

That could have been an interesting spin. Indeed, doesn't WMD attack authorize Russia to strike back, including her own WMD ?

That is such a good spin I can see the BND achieving an own goal. Now that would be sweet justice. But given Merkel didn't behead the pricks back in 2013 for their tapping her private phone, I doubt she could now.

Still if a foreign intelligence agency attacks a prominent (2%?) Russian politician from the right sector that is a mighty serious charge. Compounded of course when they convince the attacked person to come over and then refuse to release the evidence.

Times like this the BND should call on the Institute for Statecraft to mediate :))

Time will tell.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 4 2020 10:29 utc | 280

Jen #264

I may be in error regarding fentanyl od issues in Salisbury. This extract from theblogmire in early March this year. The references to Mr Bailey, who is a police officer have always been important. From the very beginning I urged that we should never take our eyes off this characters antics as they were riddled with the elements of an unraveling.

I would add one further element that may hint at this, which is this extraordinary claim in an article on 6th March 2018 in The Sun (also carried in The Mail):

“As emergency crews cleared the substance left near the bench, others were called to decontaminate the hospital. First reports suggested traces of the opiate fentanyl — a synthetic toxin many times stronger than heroin — had been detected at the scene. But that was later linked to unconnected incident involving another couple coincidentally in the shopping centre.”

That really is extraordinary. Another incident, this time a Fentanyl poisoning, the first of its kind in Salisbury, on the same day, around the same time, and in the same shopping centre as a nerve agent incident. That’s about as likely as the British Army’s Chief Nurse happening to be there at that exact same moment, isn’t it? Did it really happen? I have no idea. But if it did, was this something to do with the “initial scene” — the one that saw Mr Bailey and two of his colleagues taken to hospital (here is a link to BBC article confirming that two police officers were contaminated, as well as a third member of the emergency services, who was clearly Mr Bailey)?

I would urge barflies to read this entire powerful rebuttal of the stupid and absurd englander web of lies regarding the Skripals.

Can the BND lie as consistently and blatantly as the UK gang of thieves? Time will tell.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 4 2020 11:10 utc | 281

Jen #172

I cannot see Yuia Skripal in the role of fairy princess kissing prince Navalny and thus restoring goodness and light to the world.

This is much more like an episode of Fractured Fairytales wherein Navalny dreams of being kissed by Yulia and on awaking is staring at the shit eating grin of Beria or perhaps Yeltsin reeking of vodka and caressing his leg.

That would be a just ending.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 4 2020 11:53 utc | 282

British spycraft is resolutely and quite irrationally antiRussian. Nothing "transactional" here.

Posted by: Australian lady | Sep 3 2020 3:13 utc | 161

In my opinion, it is not just "British" phenomenon, and not irrational. Organizations in charge themselves need copious funding that is spend in murky ways like a web of "civil society organizations" that provide good living to all and sundry, including members of intelligence detailed for that onerous duty. And the witch hunts of doubters have a salutary effect on domestic politics and media climate -- you cannot rely on "anti-Semitism" alone.

----

"Shoddy" stories have many benefits. One is that they require subsequent theories and explanations that keep the story alive. "Underwear" theory makes rounds through world's press...

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Sep 4 2020 13:42 utc | 283

We got them. It's over:

German military toxicologists find poison trace in Navalny’s blood, urine, skin - report

The Germans made two additional interpolations on their own original version of the story:

1) "independent laboratories" suddenly became "the Institute of Pharmacology and Toxicology in Munich". That is, it's only one laboratory;

2) "independent" became "Bundeswehr specialists who presented the examinations results". That is, the military was directly involved, even if just with an interpretation of the lab results;

The most important interpolation is this one, which I'll quote in full:

According to the expert, traces of the poison have been discovered not only in Navalny’s blood, urine and skin, but also on a bottle that the blogger had with him during his flight. The bottle allegedly was handed to the German medics by the blogger’s family.

So, the "novichok" was in a bottle held by Navalny. It was given to the Munich lab by Navalny's family and, before that, was managed by his aid (as we can infer). Why wasn't nobody else poisoned then? Isn't this "novichok" that deadly substance which can kill anybody who touches it?

This is Skripal 2.0. The modus operandi is identical. And, now that we know the Bundeswehr is involved, we know for sure it was the BND all along.

Posted by: vk | Sep 4 2020 16:14 utc | 284

The Navalny farce goes further down the rabbit hole. It's turning into a peyote induced John Cleese comedy sketch, which would likely be banned by BBC.


"New BBC boss warns comedians not to joke about Brexit, the Tories or Trump" (soon to be added novichoked Navalny?)

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214010668

Posted by: Tom | Sep 4 2020 18:09 utc | 285

Belarusian State TV Releases 'Recording of Warsaw-Berlin Call' on Navalny

My only doubt is: which is Nick and which is Mike. I think Mike is Warsaw; Nick has a more German tone.

Posted by: vk | Sep 4 2020 18:49 utc | 286

Judging by the way events are developing, at the moment it seems to me two options are likely:

1. Another provocation of Western intelligence services (Polish? American? British?) to force Germany to abandon Nord Stream-2.

2. A deliberate voluntary action by the German side, deliberately going to this obvious and cheap spectacle. The German side, for a number of reasons (pressure from Washington, the threat of compromising evidence, the threat of sanctions etc) has already decided to close the Nord Stream-2 project, and now they need a "good reason" to justify their actions.

Let's see what happens next.

Posted by: alaff | Sep 4 2020 19:58 utc | 287

The west has quite a few reasons to try and link Russia to bio-chem warfare agents.it started mainly to discredit Russia in the OPCW, other international bodies, doping in sports and to the general public as well as their dumbed down politicians. From there they just add on other pretexts and causes to get another hoax started. Other factors for them is Syria, Iran, NS2, Venezuela, Belarus, Ukraine/Crimea, Russia constitutional changes, veto USA at UN,bypassing sanctions, being more independent, competing with US arms and interests, Russian media is getting to be very credible and gaining readers/viewers, Russians are too competitive in sports, etc...All because Russia will not follow their self declared world order.

Posted by: Frank G | Sep 4 2020 21:02 utc | 288

NATO calls for international response to Navalny poisoning

NATO on Friday called for the international community to respond to the attempted assassination of leading Russian opposition figure Alexei Navalny and said that Moscow must cooperate with an independent investigation.

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg told a news conference that there is no doubt Navalny ... was poisoned last week in Siberia with the Soviet-era, military-grade chemical nerve agent Novichok.

“The use of such a weapon is horrific. All allies today were united in condemning this attack,” Stoltenberg.

. . .

Stoltenberg said that despite Navalny’s attack taking place on Russian soil, the attempt on his life is a violation of international law and requires an international response.

“This is not just an attack on an individual but on fundamental democratic rights. And it is a serious breach of international law which demands an international response,” he said.

. . .

Stoltenberg also called on Russia to participate completely in an impartial, international investigation into the circumstances of the attempted assassination and find those responsible. He further said Russia must cooperate with the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) to turn over all information on the Novichok program.

“The Russian government must fully cooperate with the organization for the prohibition of chemical weapons on an impartial, international investigation, those responsible for this attack must be held accountable and brought to justice,” he said.

“We also call on Russia to provide complete disclosure of the Novichok program to the OPCW.”

. . .

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 4 2020 21:16 utc | 289

NATO calls for international response to Navalny poisoning

NATO on Friday called for the international community to respond to the attempted assassination of leading Russian opposition figure Alexei Navalny and said that Moscow must cooperate with an independent investigation.

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg told a news conference that there is no doubt Navalny ... was poisoned last week in Siberia with the Soviet-era, military-grade chemical nerve agent Novichok.

“The use of such a weapon is horrific. All allies today were united in condemning this attack,” Stoltenberg.

. . .

Stoltenberg said that despite Navalny’s attack taking place on Russian soil, the attempt on his life is a violation of international law and requires an international response.

“This is not just an attack on an individual but on fundamental democratic rights. And it is a serious breach of international law which demands an international response,” he said.

. . .

Stoltenberg also called on Russia to participate completely in an impartial, international investigation into the circumstances of the attempted assassination and find those responsible. He further said Russia must cooperate with the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) to turn over all information on the Novichok program.

“The Russian government must fully cooperate with the organization for the prohibition of chemical weapons on an impartial, international investigation, those responsible for this attack must be held accountable and brought to justice,” he said.

“We also call on Russia to provide complete disclosure of the Novichok program to the OPCW.”

. . .

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 4 2020 21:16 utc | 290

Re: Navalny's blood samples at the Russian hospital: Who in Western political and media circles is going to trust the provenance of those samples, if they happen to show no evidence of Novichok? Testing at an independent lab will not change the thinking of those who have a clear anti-Russia/Putin agenda. They wanted a propaganda firestorm, and they got one.

Posted by: Rob | Sep 4 2020 21:17 utc | 291

Also Lavrov said this was likely a pretext to add further sanctions onto Russia. That being said no matter what other things Russia could of done differently the outcome would be the same. I think also that navalny cannot run for gov office because of his felony crimes, this makes him a lost asset to the west as he cannot advance his political career outside of being an activist, given the current situations, he is a better asset being a martyr for their side. it also diminishes Russia's cv19 vaccine credibility to the world and its sheeple. Their point is that they do not need to convince everyone but a good majority, which is who the can influence.

Posted by: Frank G | Sep 4 2020 21:19 utc | 292

@ vk 284
now that we know the Bundeswehr is involved

That was in b's opening commentary
"Chancellor Angela Merkel’s spokesman, Steffen Seibert, said in a statement Wednesday that testing by a special German military laboratory had shown proof of “a chemical nerve agent from the Novichok group"

. . .and I addressed it in my #84
Why the "special German military laboratory?" Because the German military is under the operational control of the US, specifically General Tod Wolters Supreme Allied Commander Europe. . . .An ordinary laboratory wouldn't provide the desired results, they had to be "special military."

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 4 2020 21:31 utc | 293

@ Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 4 2020 21:31 utc | 292

I was referring to MoA's first post about this ("The Back And Forth About Navalny's 'Poisoning'", August 25th), not this one. That one mentioned unnamed "independent labs" (in the plural, therefore, at least two). Here's the excerpt:

Following his admission, Mr. Navalny underwent extensive examination by a team of Charité physicians. Clinical findings indicate poisoning with a substance from the group of cholinesterase inhibitors. The specific substance involved remains unknown, and a further series of comprehensive testing has been initiated. The effect of the poison – namely, the inhibition of cholinesterase in the body – was confirmed by multiple tests in independent laboratories.

Here's b's link to the aforementioned excerpt (which is Charité's, therefore we also know the hospital is also directly involved, in cahoots with the BND): Statement by Charité: Clinical findings indicate Alexei Navalny was poisoned

Posted by: vk | Sep 4 2020 21:42 utc | 294

Judging by the way events are developing, at the moment it seems to me two options are likely:

1. Another provocation of Western intelligence services (Polish? American? British?) to force Germany to abandon Nord Stream-2.

.

Posted by: alaff | Sep 4 2020 19:58 utc | 287

---

Dibbs on 1

Posted by: Contra-Conspiraloon | Sep 4 2020 21:43 utc | 295

An editorial on Navalny at strategic culture https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2020/09/04/germany-not-russia-should-answer-questions-over-navalny-case/ linked to an article at RT

https://www.rt.com/russia/499792-navalny-novichok-siberian-doctor/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_c
"Doctors in the Omsk Emergency Hospital, where activist Navalny lay in a coma for almost two days, found no traces of toxic substances in his kidneys, liver, or lungs, leading Sabaev to conclude that he wasn’t poisoned.

“The most important organs responsible for detoxification are the kidneys, liver, and lungs. They were intact at the time of the patient’s stay in our clinic,” Sabaev said. “Any toxicant, of course, must pass through these organs, or the body will still struggle.”
............

The last sentence apparently is the doctors wording. The way it is worded, it doesn't sound as though biopsies of these organs were taken.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 4 2020 21:45 utc | 296

Belarusian State TV Releases 'Recording of Warsaw-Berlin Call' on Navalny

My only doubt is: which is Nick and which is Mike. I think Mike is Warsaw; Nick has a more German tone.

Posted by: vk | Sep 4 2020 18:49 utc | 286

-----

Curious that Sputnik provided no link to the actual conversation allegedly released by Belarus State TV

Posted by: Contra-Conspiraloon | Sep 4 2020 21:48 utc | 297

@Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 4 2020 21:45 utc | 295

Biopsia is usually an invasive procedure and thus require authorization by the patient or the person responsible on his behalf, even by laparoscopia technic the doctors would had needed to make some incisions, eventhough when small and few...

If they did not suspect any poisoning, there was no place for biopsias...

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Sep 4 2020 22:07 utc | 298

https://www.tvr.by/eng/news/obshchestvo/o_falsifikatsii_otravleniya_navalnogo_perekhvachennyy_razgovor_varshavy_i_berlina/

Have fun.

This should be called "That time Lukashenko completely trolled the west"

Posted by: Contra-Conspiraloon | Sep 4 2020 22:10 utc | 299

H.Schmatz

You could be right about requiring authorization for invasive procedures. From their earliest statement however, the doctors did initially think he hap been poisoned due to the group of clinical symptoms.

From memory, I believe the civilian labs found nothing on the Skripal cases. Blood samples were then supposedly sent to Porton Down for testing.

Some substance has caused the sudden illness of the Skripals and Navalny, but it is not being detected in blood samples by civilian labs - though it seems to me there is no trace of it in the blood.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 4 2020 22:19 utc | 300

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