Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 02, 2020

Navalny Gets Skripaled

Yawn! was my first reaction when I read this. Couldn't they come up with a more believable fairy tale?

The German government says tests performed on samples taken from Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny showed the presence of the Soviet-era nerve agent Novichok.
...
Chancellor Angela Merkel’s spokesman, Steffen Seibert, said in a statement Wednesday that testing by a special German military laboratory had shown proof of “a chemical nerve agent from the Novichok group.”

Novichok, a Soviet-era nerve agent, was used to poison former Russian spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter in Britain. It is a cholinesterase inhibitor, part of the class of substances that doctors at the Charite initially identified in Navalny.

Funny how Novichok, the "military grade", "most deadly" poison, never kills anyone.

Where are, by the way, the Skripals? Will Navalny now get vanished just like they were?

Other questions one might ask (and will never get answered):

  • If the Russian state or "Putin" has poisoned Navalny why was he allowed to be flown out of the country?
  • No traces of any unusual substances have been found by the two Russian laboratories which analyzed the blood of the sick Alexei Navalny. Why?
  • While Navalny was allegedly exposed to such stuff why was no one else around him hurt by it?
  • Why was the German government so eager to get Navalny to Berlin?
  • Who has the lead in this anti-Russian information operation? The MI6, the CIA or the Germany BND?

My sense is that the Navalny incident, or at least what is made of it, is a reaction to the failure of the U.S. run color revolution attempt in Belarus. "Russia" must be punished for this.

The hospital in Omsk still has the original blood samples of Navalny.

Is there a neutral international laboratory that could retest those?

Posted by b on September 2, 2020 at 15:37 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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Xpilgrim #97

The people most anxious about the entire Polish military and political elite going to Russia would have been the Great Gamers - FUKUSI.

If anyone was out to kill that Smolensk flight it would have been FUKUSI. They had everything to gain and they sure as hell would not be tolerating Poland cosy with Russia. So look west for a perpetrator if you must. I take it as an accident not a conspiracy.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 2 2020 20:48 utc | 101

It was all just clumsiness on the part of the stupid Russians that they released Navalny, according to Alexander Goldfarb (who also wrote Litvinenko's deathbed statement in 2006 that blamed the Kremlin):

"they simply hoped that German toxicologists would not find the cause", just like "in the Litvinenko case they hoped the British would not find the radioactive material",
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1301186464588410880

Posted by: Brendan | Sep 2 2020 20:50 utc | 102

I also thought that this is the vengeance for not get with their own in Belarus...but..
this past day Merkel stated that in spite of the requirements from the US to stop it, that Nord Stream 2 works will be finished...yes or yes...

As ex-US ambassador to Germany confessed in a Zoom video that Germany did not want to declare Hezbollah as terrorist organization but that they exerted such pressure on them that they finally ceded, one wonders whether this is the price for finalishing Nord Stream 2...

This Novichok family seems to be quite extended...who will swallow this old trick?
The other day Daniel Estulin asured Lytvinenko was smuggling with uranium and fell victim of the sharks in the business....
It is obvious Navalny has been amorticed by "The West", and this is the way to retire him....

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Sep 2 2020 20:50 utc | 103

@41
I trust 100% more german official that Putin labs and no all news that are not in favor of Putin is CIA/Mossad/M6 plot. Russian labs provided the stuff to cheat in Olympic games, denied when caught. So lying for state reason is not unheard of. Am I the only one to notice that B nevers criticize Putin and is always fast to adopt russian official line, even the most absurds. So let's say that Putin opponent loves to sit on radioactive stuff, swallow spiced tea, use all sort of nerve agents as perfume. Commercial jets are also downed by Russian missile operates by teddys babars just on russian border. Last, opponent to Putin are systematically labeled by B as a bunch of fascists, punk or west agents. On minsk, B choose to show a photo of a protest of 2000 people to discrets the protest in Minsk, ignoring gathering of 200 000. B is paid by fsb to write in favor of Putin, that's a for sure. Nothing new under the sun, the practice to buy favourable news papers articles was already in use in US by Germans before and during world war I.

Posted by: murgen23 | Sep 2 2020 21:03 utc | 104

Gotta love this nest of hard-core Putinversteher. Of course this is all a Western plot to discredit him...it HAS TO BE!!!

Posted by: Malchik Ralf | Sep 2 2020 21:03 utc | 105

"This is not available to you"

regarding people's twitter links - i am now getting this message regularly... you might want to copy and paste the data from the link, because some of us are not being allowed to see what is in it.. instead we get this-> This is not available to you

Posted by: james | Sep 2 2020 21:04 utc | 106

@ 106 Malchik Ralf .. clearly the novichok is inferior stuff... i blame putin!!

Posted by: james | Sep 2 2020 21:05 utc | 107

Constantine @92--

Thanks for your reply! I understand why Putin continued to allow gas to transit Ukraine--it was humanitarian, so the little people wouldn't freeze. Despite being portrayed as having a weak, failing economy and woeful government, Russia is actually very well off given events since 2008-9 & 2014. Yes, far too much distraction from gazing Westward when concentration should be East and South. For now, the EAEU needn't go beyond the Belarus-Turkey line. Let the EU implode and come to you.

AtaBrit @94--

Thanks for your reply! I see the usual suspects jumping on the event to demand Nord Stream 2 be halted, while Merkel has indeed said it must be finished.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 2 2020 21:08 utc | 108

Bhadrakumar's piece on Belarus from a few days ago adds more context:

https://indianpunchline.com/anatomy-of-coup-attempt-in-belarus/

The Navalny "poisoning" can be understood as a propaganda vehicle helping to drive a more direct confrontation over Belarus.
Of concern is that a western position of backing off from a Belarus "coup attempt" seems to have reversed over past 72 hours in favour of a much more aggressive posture. "The US intention is to put Russia on the dock with the simultaneous diplomatic offensives on two fronts."

Taiwan is now set to be a flashpoint as well.In both instances the hawks are advising that Chinese and Russian red Ines are in fact bluffs and significant advantage can be gained through bold direct action to expose the paper tigers.

Posted by: jayc | Sep 2 2020 21:14 utc | 109

Well, good.

While collective west is obsessing getting outraged by evil Russians and alike, their house is burning to the ground.

Or, they are pushing this crap to keep own citizens distracted and stupid and not noticing that their house is burning.

Whichever is it, good.

Posted by: Abe | Sep 2 2020 21:23 utc | 110

Navalny took something to create the symptoms seen by the Russian doctors which is most likely to be the same stuff that put the Skripals in hospital.

It may well be some brew the Brits or Americans cooked up when trying to recreate novichok.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 2 2020 21:25 utc | 111


The Navlany-Novichok story now rivals the Epstein-Suicide story for sheer, bald-faced audacity in its challenge to common sense and reality. And both to the same point: the people who rule the world have dispensed with plausibility because they have complete and utter impunity from the media and the governments the media serve.

Posted by: Emily Dickinson | Sep 2 2020 18:38 utc | 59

Thank you Emily,this is also the way I feel about it.

The sheer stupidity,boringness ,uninventiveness,etc;that we see in this repeated novichok tale is just the result of some deskplanning by "TheMan".
Take a peep in his agenda ;like
"-"-"-":March 2018 provoke spypoisoning incident on opportune moment before WorldFootball Cup in Russia..Put blame on Putin.

2020 ,late summer at some opportune moment :provoke poisoning of our prime opposant asset.Put blame on Putin.

Because of the first poisoning everybody has heard about those evil russians related to poisoning and a very very lethal stuff named novichok.Now ,two years after that,everyone listening or watching the news all over the western nato-dominated world is reminded about those still poisoning evil russians who'll never learn until we slap them in thze face in some manner.Its awful to see how intelligent dutch people for instance all agree about Putin evildoing.
And thervby "novichok" does not exist as such.There is no such substance called novichok.It signals a class of substance with certain properties,that in itself have names or chemical references.Why don't we see them in the case of "novichok"?Because giving away qualities and properties of a named substance would make tracing and research a possible feat.But "The Man" can't afford that,so he tells his lieutenant to give it a vague name lile a piggy bag that
can bear lots of different shampoos.And novichok sounds a hit!Although I from now on will relate to this non-substance as navalnychok,thanks to james.


Jeez,the government being a head and ministers serving the people was quite a while ago,if ever.It's corporate interest,pre-elected head of government and the billionnaire armsseller owned media ,all of them totally ignoring the will and wants of the people.

Posted by: willie | Sep 2 2020 21:30 utc | 112

Or maybe Navalny sat on the same seat in the very plane to Berlin,that brought the other two russians who wanted to visit Salisbury from Moscow to London.Oh,no impossible he was in coma.Or maybe the plane from the flight OmskTomsk whatever to Moscow or was it the other way around,well let's leave it there,all this conjuring and conspiring is utterly fatiguant if one is not paid for it.How many people actually earn a living with all of this BS.Must be a lot of jobs.

Posted by: willie | Sep 2 2020 21:38 utc | 113

Peter AU1 #112

As I recall the Omsk doctors openly admitted administering a cholinesterase inhibitor as normal in a ventilated patient at Intensive Care. The Germans likely are aware of Russian standard medical practice and can easily say that they found the stuff in his bloodstream. Then all they need do is ginger up some sample with a drop of the pure 'novihoax stuff' (as was done in UK) and voila! PROOF.

This is poor farce indeed.

The ratcheted global tensions gives the Trump and his gang of '86 the cue to stamp on the home rebellion in times of 'real crisis' as they are all unpatriotic. There is a history of success in that strategy.

Just when it all seemed so remote it has come home to Germany - stay safe b and avoid doorknobs and dark alleyways. Wear a mask as novichok can't penetrate N95 I'm told.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 2 2020 21:42 utc | 114

Posted by: vk | Sep 2 2020 19:32 utc | 74

(Poland and Belarus are a giant plains, very hard to defend).

The first part of the word geopolitics is as ignored as common sense in the Novichok affair.

Those plains have been cruised quite a few times, with very tragic consecuences for Russia, another very often ignored fact.

Posted by: Paco | Sep 2 2020 21:48 utc | 115

uncle tungsten

Can you find a link to to that? I believe a doctor not on the case said something about inhibitors being used when patients are taken off ventilators, but Navalny has not been taken off a ventilator and doctors have been administering atropine since an hour after he landed in hospital.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 2 2020 21:49 utc | 116

The European Comission has made a centralized buying of the vaccine by AstraZeneca which is being produced in Oxford....
The bad news is that the company asked being acquited from any responsability related to collateral effects...
The worst news is that all of us will pay for these vaccines eventhough we do not want to be vaccinated...

Who would be in the need to undermine the credibility of the first who came out with a vaccine, and moreover in the grounds of that the competitors are dedicated to poison people?

This is a multibillion business in a scenario of negative growth and recession...that there will be claws, that is to say little ..

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Sep 2 2020 21:51 utc | 117

Reminds me of trying to pacify a homicidal schizophrenic relative wielding a big butchers knife once, I can just imagine the threats Merkel is getting to go along with this patently absurd propaganda.
Nice little country you have there,we just re-targeted our nukes onto it for shits and giggles.

Posted by: winston2 | Sep 2 2020 21:55 utc | 118

Atropine, as I posted in the previous Navalny thread, is a common drug in ER and ICU...
But, in case you do not believe me, here are the wide uses of Atropine...

https://twitter.com/elenaevdokimov7/status/1300268427915849728

ATROPINE was given by Russian doctors to #Navalny not as antidote. Atropine is used to: -to reduce saliva for the intubation -insecticide or mushroom poisoning cure -to increase a slow heartbeat -gastrointest. conditions -to increase insulin sensitivity

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Sep 2 2020 22:03 utc | 119

I also thought that this is the vengeance for not get with their own in Belarus...but..
This past day Merkel stated that in spite of the requirements from the US to stop it, that Nord Stream 2 works will be finished....yes or yes...

As ex-US ambassador to Germany, Grenell, confessed in a Zoom video that Germany did not want to declare Hezbollah as terrorist organization but that they exerted such pressure on them that they finally ceded doing it, one wonders whether this of Navalny Novichocked is the price for finishing Nord Stream 2...

This Novichok family seems to be quite extended...who will swallow this old trick? The other day Daniel Estulin said that Lytvinenko was smuggling with uranium and fell victim of sharks in the business....

It is obvious Navalny has been amortized by "The West", and this is the way to retire him....

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Sep 2 2020 22:10 utc | 120

Tuyzenfloot #99
Missing link per Ken Garoo post.
https://fort-russ.com/2017/03/yale-prepares-russian-colour-revolution/

If that fails then stay on the fortruss page and search "Yale"

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 2 2020 22:12 utc | 121

Angela merkel is a chemist by profession,isn't she?

How about the reason for this novichok series is just about convincing madame Merkel to cut ties with Russia?Sounds farfetched,but she is around for a long time,can converse with Vladimir in both russian and german without translators or seconds present,and that must have made her a potential danger to any american domination of Germany and its people.Her mindset has been studied by nato criminal scientistShe is a major pivot personality and of course the focus of attention for many a secret service,like the NSA hearing in on all phonecalls.I think she has been shown chemical probes that have convinced her of russian poisoning of Navalny.Still she does not stop Nordstream2.

Posted by: willie | Sep 2 2020 22:17 utc | 122

Peter AU1 #117

See H.Schmatz #120

The thread was The Back And Forth About Navalny's 'Poisoning' as far as I recall. Search 'atropine' as per H.Schmatz suggestion.

Let me know if you want me to persist and I will analyse that and the week in review thread.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 2 2020 22:18 utc | 123

Wauw b, another coverage of Navalny where you trully show your colours again. Intelligence (orders) are a bitch, ain't they? :)

Such a simple answers to all your basic questions:

- the Skripals are in New Zealand. DYOR !
- the Kremlin cannot stop a citizen leaving the country, but stalling the doctors to release the patient was an option. Exactly what happened
- expecting test results from Russian laboratories that are not manipulated by the Kremlin? A bit naive, are you?
- a very small dosis in hot tea that Navalny just drinks by himself, easy right?
- a Pussy Riot member - another discredited Kremlin person perhaps? - was saved in this same hospital a few years ago, also after being poisoned and offerded the same live saving solution for
- the only operation that happened is the poisoning of Navalny and the on going operation saving his life medically and protecting him from more danger

You have certainly unleashed all the trolls, mostly.during Russian office hours of course, except if you live physically in Germany

Posted by: Vladimir | Sep 2 2020 22:19 utc | 124

H.Schmatz #121

It is obvious Navalny has been amortized by "The West", and this is the way to retire him....

That sure is a gruesome way to be amortised and be granted asylum. He will be years in rehab from the respirator and forced coma alone.

[Note to self: avoid amortising and novihoax and best choose heart breaker herb or a decent fungi.]

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 2 2020 22:24 utc | 125

Vladimir #125

What's up, Langley seems to have removed all the links in your post.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 2 2020 22:28 utc | 126

willie #123

How about the reason for this novichok series is just about convincing madame Merkel to cut ties with Russia?Sounds farfetched,but she is around for a long time,can converse with Vladimir in both russian and german without translators or seconds present,and that must have made her a potential danger to any american domination of Germany and its people.Her mindset has been studied by nato criminal scientistShe is a major pivot personality and of course the focus of attention for many a secret service,like the NSA hearing in on all phonecalls.I think she has been shown chemical probes that have convinced her of russian poisoning of Navalny.Still she does not stop Nordstream2.

Thank you and well said. I note Bannon has been doing the rounds in Germany and other European states for a few years now and building the new fascist teams and Qanon leagues across the EU. He doesn't like Merkel as she is far too independent and not 'ideological enough' for the likes of the reborn nazi league.

Make no mistake Trump and his proselytizers are nazi league drivers of the highest calibre. Sure not erudite but not wavering either. Watch out Germany the white ants are eating your fabric and when is your election again?

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 2 2020 22:36 utc | 127

I get that Russia are smeared at every opportunity by the west, bellingcrap, integrity initiative, 77th bde etc,and generally I do not believe it.However, how long can we deny that there must be Russian involvement.? It makes a good point when you ask, why would Russia allow him to travel to Germany, I get it, but the simple denial at every incident is getting thin. By the way, I reckon from day 1 that Ukraine brought down mh17.

Posted by: John Bowery | Sep 2 2020 23:00 utc | 128

It is important to note that bad propaganda actually works better than well thought-out propaganda because your brain tries harder to justify improbable statements than probable ones. So even though the story is stupid, the logic behind it is not.

Posted by: vlcheck | Sep 2 2020 23:01 utc | 129

Hi B,
have any of these idiots seen what a nerve agent does to someone. If he got it in his tea, just 1mg or so, he'd be dead in 15 mins! Nothing would stop it -- he'd evacuate his bowels, piss himself, collapse due to bradycardia and his skeletal muscles would stop working due acetylcholine overload, he'd asphyxiate in his own secretions. It would be pretty spectacular and a no brainer for anyone with a medical degree. There would be no cholinesterase activity in his blood. He'd be as dead as dead before they got him anywhere near a hospital. Its all bull.
They gotta stop this anti-Russia stuff its just unbecoming and obviously wrong and worse racist.

Posted by: cj | Sep 2 2020 23:02 utc | 130

Posted by: Vladimir | Sep 2 2020 22:19 utc | 125

- a very small dosis in hot tea that Navalny just drinks by himself, easy right?

Sure, if it was a rat poison. But military grade nerve agent, not so easy to put without getting yourself exposed and killed. A person who brought him the tea cup would be affected for sure. That stuff goes through your skin.
And Navalny did not have symptoms of nerve agent poisoning. According to the video from airplane he was screaming and moaning which means his nervous system was working well enough to control his diaphragm and vocal chords.
So it could be that he was poisoned by bad mushrooms or that he had an acute pancreatitis or diabetic shock or who knows what. But it was not a nerve agent.

Posted by: hopehely | Sep 2 2020 23:10 utc | 131

It is precisely because the Nordstream II won't be interrupted that I believe Germany is behind this (albeit with American blessing and support).

In my opinion, there's a faction within the German capitalist class that is genuinely Atlanticist, i.e. they're fundamentally against Eurasian integration, even if that means hampering the country's own progress (in this case, no cheap gas from Russia). They're fine with Germany being essentially a big Switzerland, integrated more with Austria and the Benelux than with a more "Prussian" configuration centered on East Europe (ex-Warsaw Pact nations). They probably have the BND in their hands, as the whole State machine of modern Germany is essentially West Germany, which engulfed East Germany in 1989.

I don't think the Russian vaccine (Sputnik V) is involved, as it was too well concerted with the Belarusian coup attempt in timing. There was no way the Germans could foresee Russia would win the vaccine race (the hype, remember, was the Oxford one, which they promised to register in September/October, to produce and distribute in January 2021).

The Russians, it seems, share my opinion:

Germany's allegations about Navalny could be justification for pre-planned anti-Russian ‘response’ – Russian Foreign Ministry

Posted by: vk | Sep 2 2020 23:29 utc | 132

I mean if you want to kill someone with a toxin and you are a nation state-- there must be some pretty potent toxins that have not been described in the literature that are available to you. How about using a toxic plant lectin or obscure bacterial toxin that hasn't been formally described. Something that takes some time but is exquisitely poisonous-- there must be a toxin like ricin or abrin that hasn't been described in the literature. Use that-- an nerve agent is very amateurish. Also this anti-Russia stuff is getting really dangerous-- its dehumanizing them and that can lead to real trouble (consider Germany 1930s).

Posted by: cj | Sep 2 2020 23:30 utc | 133

@ all

The Russian tests came negative. Navalny wasn't poisoned.

If I were you I would stop wasting time speculating about it.

Posted by: vk | Sep 2 2020 23:39 utc | 134

BBC Newsnight repeating that Novichok was ''rubbed on Skripal's front door handle''?! Door handle on front door? And the transmission method is in the case of Navalny as non-existent as door handles on an airplane?! And a deadly chemical weapon that doesn't kill its intended target not once or twice but now three times? Are you serious?!

Posted by: Marc Barham | Sep 2 2020 23:51 utc | 135

The thing is, if I'm supposed to believe unsupported inflammatory drivel like this, then why not believe Qanon too? Qanon is actually more interesting and consistent, more believable, than this Novichok stuff.

Posted by: Bemildred | Sep 2 2020 23:59 utc | 136

John Bowery @129

That is how propaganda works...lie, lie, lie and lie some more. Use previous lies as proof for the current lies. Circular reasoning every step of the way. Eventually, the never ending stream of lies can even wear down a critical thinker into saying something like...

"However, how long can we deny that there must be Russian involvement.?"

Posted by: Jason | Sep 3 2020 0:01 utc | 137

Well, at Stalker Zone an author is stating Navalny was drowned in debt and now he has no need to face them... and that the diagnosis of the Russian doctors was pancreatitis....( do not know how she knows, but with famous people, you know, there are always leaks...)which develops with acute stomach ache...related to excesive and continuous consum of alcohol...

10 No-nonsense Facts About Navalny’s “Poisoning”

Of course, they can not admit that their "opposition candidate" was such a disastrous irresponsible person...who would then trust the next?

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Sep 3 2020 0:03 utc | 138

"Yawn! was my first reaction"

Agreed. Yawn...

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Sep 3 2020 0:07 utc | 139

If it is about the "Vaccine´s War" or not, it is the same, I will not take the Porton Down vaccine for the so much the EC could have spent in them.
The UK did not took the pandemic seriously until several months had passed and the NHS was overwhelmed and the same Boris got "the germ"...Am I to believe that vaccine is developed enough?

I cede mine to a Fullbright fellow...after all they need to be saved for to do nothing except selling their countries of origin into slavery and by passing making our lives impossible...

I am still in the need to work to make a living....thus I will keep unvaccinated for Covid-19 unless it is the Russian vaccine...

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Sep 3 2020 0:11 utc | 140

It's actually dehumanizing the accusers to the eyes of "their own" (at least nominally "their own"; few pledge allegiance to stupidity) because they have plenty of underlings who have no choice but to know that they are 100% lying because it is their job to know better than what is being claimed. It's why the specialists dragged their feet the last time around; it's hard to lie with any conviction when you know you are being ordered to lie by people who are terminally ignorant and will shift the blame onto you for supporting them in their lies, and in addition you know that everyone else across the world who knows a thing or two on the subject will know that you're selling out.

And of course one doesn't have to work in a place like that to know, a lot of people elsewhere will also know and will only look away to the extent that it does not endanger themselves.

Perhaps the kind of idiocy we are witnessing requires a new concept: a "sixth column" (unless that's already taken for something else) of all those who already know better and whose allegiance thus can not be towards the liars and deceivers. Many of these people are the ones who makes a country function and are in crucial positions but nevertheless maybe the liars are stupid enough to try to remove them as well?

As said: they are doing it to themselves, all of it.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Sep 3 2020 0:13 utc | 141

Smoothie agrees:

I Am Too Lazy...

Posted by: Bemildred | Sep 3 2020 0:17 utc | 142

Navalny represented no threat whatsoever to Putin or anyone else, although he did irk a few corrupt
figures in the Russian establishment. To think that it was somehow in Putin's or government interest to
poison and silence Navalny is ridiculous. He is a clearly a person, who has immunity from prosecution in RF,
being promptly released after arrests, even being flown to Germany after this poisoning, despite being on parole
in spite of quarantine. His value for any anti-Putin forces currently is being a "sacrifical lamb", and certainly
his elimination would have harmed the Russian government. Anyway, if he was really up for elimination, this could
have easily be arranged either by two drunkards from behind the garage and a brick, in a Siberian city, or by some
crazy Chechen "freedom fighter" irrate for some reason (to be jailed later). Methinks it is some rogue Ukrainian
security faction, or a pissed-off oligarch, that Navalny has tarnished by his anti-corruption claims.

Posted by: Alex | Sep 3 2020 0:20 utc | 143

This is a serious stretch of the imagination, but hear me out!

What if we have this all wrong?

What if the Germans know that claiming the CIA tool was Novichoked is completely preposterous and only people with severe brain damage (Americans, in other words) would believe it? What if they also know full well that the story about the Skripals being Novichoked is also a total farce? What if they are trying to blow the whole narrative up by pushing it far beyond the point where suspended disbelief can cover the silliness?

I know it is a long shot, but if the Germans are doing this then it would go a long way towards building respect for them.

Keep in mind that Germany is still occupied by their adversary. They cannot confront that enemy directly, but they can carry their servility to their occupier to ludicrous extremes that are impossible to take seriously (unless you have brain damage like Americans do, anyway). How to subvert the whole Novichok narrative? Start claiming everybody has been Novichoked!

Let's see if they can come up with some Novichoked ducks....

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 3 2020 0:23 utc | 144

Posted by: John Bowery | Sep 2 2020 23:00 utc | 129

Why would they try "Novichok" over and over again if they are already "famous" due to the Scripal case for it? Don't they have other ways and other poisons?

Why is the "military grade nerve agent" not killing the targets?

Why can't they kill Navalny even in Russia?

Put yourself in the place of the Russian Government. Why would you poison Navalny with Novichok again? Instead of using something else with not a good trace, so that they can't trace you?

Why is he still not dead?

Why would you let him off to Germany if you just poisoned him with Novichok?

>>but the simple denial at every incident is getting thin.

That's the point. Why are the "incidents" all the same? Would you do that if you were the Russian Government?

Posted by: Passer by | Sep 3 2020 0:25 utc | 145

By the way, the inventors blundered - the version of what happened was supposed to look like this: "experts" of White Helmets find a Novichok in Syria at the site of another "chemical attack" (by analogy with how they found chemical weapons in sandals on their bare feet in Khan-Sheikhoun), and the notorious Belingcat releases yet another "sensational investigation" into how this Novichok got into Navalny's tea (of course, the "GRU agents" Petrov and Boshirov are again acting). Plus, the talking head G.Rodchenkov is resurrecting from obscurity, records another ridiculous video in a balaclava and declares that Putin personally runs "the state program of Novichok poisoning" (all Russian athletes, undoubtedly, eat Novichok as doping every day).

In general, it is a pity that the Russian official position is again reduced to only a sluggish defense. In fact, the Russian Foreign Ministry should have summoned the German ambassador and demanded an explanation of how it could have happened that the Russian citizen, while he was on the territory of the Russian Federation, was not poisoned by anything (which is confirmed by his blood tests), and after entering the territory of Germany, suddenly turns to be "poisoned" by Novichok. If the German leadership is unable to provide intelligible explanations in the most near future, the Russian side reserves the right to regard the incident as an attempt on the life of a Russian citizen and to take appropriate measures against German representatives (doctors, politicians, etc.).

However, this should not be expected. The Russian Foreign Ministry will again be traditionally boring "to ask for evidence". Ugh.

Posted by: alaff | Sep 3 2020 0:29 utc | 146

Bemildred @143--

Thanks for that link! Yes, it provided a break from the other BS going on globally. And as with the Skripals, the remainder will unravel slowly. As I wrote earlier, Navalny gave it all away when he admitted he was to become a martyr to his Omsk colleagues. Funny how that extremely important part of the saga gets omitted by most every news media--even the Russians.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 3 2020 0:34 utc | 147

All valid points. But my guess is that it really has to do with the russian pipeline project and the US attempt to block it. Is it coincidence navalny was flown to berlin for tests? No. But the fact he was flown there brings germany into the spotlight doesnt it.The whole sorry pretence is a last ditch effort to arm twist the germans into taking action....and that action will be to pull out of the pipeline deal.

Posted by: Hermius | Sep 3 2020 0:38 utc | 148

Uncle Tungsten @ 115, Peter AU 1 @ 117:

You may both be looking for this Zhurnalisticheskaya Pravda interview with Dmitry Petrovsky: "Dmitry Petrovsky: Charite Clinic shows amateurism in conclusions on Navalny"

What they found in Navalny cholinesterase inhibitors after being in intensive care is normal. They should be in the man who was in intensive care and was on ventilator. If they weren't there, it would be strange, I'd be surprised.

Tonight, doctors of the German clinic "Charite" found in the blood of blogger Alexei Navalny substance, which, in their opinion, could provoke his illness, and hastened to announce the poisoning. However, in Russian practice, this substance is widely used to prevent disorders that developing in patients on ventilator.

German doctors found in Navalny substance - cholinesterase inhibitor.

"The effect of the toxin, i.e. the inhibition of cholinesterase in the body, has been proven several times in independent laboratories. According to the diagnosis, the patient is treated with an antidote to atropine. The outcome of the disease remains unsafe and the subsequent effects, especially in the nervous system, cannot be ruled out at this time," the statement obtained [by Izvestia reads].

Deputy of the municipality of Yaroslavl, M.D., surgeon Dmitry Petrovsky commented on this "find" of German colleagues.

"Cholinesterase inhibitors are widely used medicines in medicine. Basically, they are used in the postoperative management of patients, when transferring to independent breathing. That's what Navalny had. He was first on ventilator and when trying to translate it, could use the drug Proserin. It is a cholinesterase inhibitor that is officially administered to all patients when transferred to independent breathing. It must be used. I think it was used. But I also understand that, most likely, he had to shine as Proserin's German colleagues. Perhaps used not Proserin in its pure form, but another drug, more rare - Ubretide, which is also an absolutely official drug, which is used in intensive care, in postoperative practice to prevent bladder atony, to prevent bowel atony and, accordingly, widely used. But, I admit, it can be used little in Germany, and it was not in the toxicology kit, so they could be surprised, and because of this all the cheese-bor.

What they found in Navalny cholinesterase inhibitors after being in intensive care is normal. They should be in the man who was in intensive care and was on ventilator. If they weren't there, it would be strange, I'd be surprised.

When a person breathes with the help of the ventilator, various disorders develop, including respiratory, cardiovascular, with the intestines, with the bladder. Various drugs are used to prevent these disorders, including cholinesterase inhibitors. And if the doctor finds them in the analysis of the person after a stay in the operating room and concludes that he was poisoned, then the conclusion is: either it is a political order, or an illiterate doctor," Dmitry Petrovsky said in a commentary for "Journalist Truth".

The interview was machine-translated so parts of it may read strangely.

Latvian-based media organisation Meduza has now published an interview with one of the physicians who helped treat Navalny in Omsk: ‘We’re in the business of saving lives, get it?’

One of the ICU doctors who treated Alexey Navalny in Omsk explains how Russian physicians handled the case and why he thinks activists’ criticism is unfair.

Boris Teplikh, the head of the Anesthesiology and ICU Department at Moscow’s Pirogov National Medical and Surgical Center, was one of the doctors summoned to consult on Alexey Navalny’s treatment in Omsk, after the opposition politician needed hospitalization and slipped into a coma on August 20. Teplikh then returned to the capital and wrote a Facebook post where he defended his Russian colleagues’ decision to delay Navalny’s transfer to Berlin and their reluctance to rush a diagnosis. Doctors in Omsk ultimately concluded that Navalny’s condition was due to a “carbohydrate imbalance.” Navalny’s family and fellow activists, meanwhile, insisted from the start that he was likely poisoned — a suspicion later confirmed by doctors at the Charité Clinic in Germany. Meduza special correspondent Svetlana Reiter spoke to Boris Teplikh about his work in Omsk and the chances that Navalny was poisoned ...

Boris Teplikh's responses suggest that Navalny did indeed have metabolic issues leading to his falling into a natural coma and that the doctors in Omsk extended that coma to do the testing and to stabilise his condition.

Posted by: Jen | Sep 3 2020 0:42 utc | 149

Willie @ 123:

I'm sure if the Americans want to blackmail Angela Merkel in any way, they only need to drag out what's in the NSA files on Merkel, that Merkel is frightened of.

It is very likely that the NSA and perhaps other US intel agencies have compromising information on Angela Merkel's father and why he moved his family from West Germany to East Germany, to take up a post as Lutheran minister to a congregation (in a nation where atheism was supposedly official policy and all religions were being suppressed by the government), when Merkel herself was a baby. This information could potentially have derailed Merkel's career as Chancellor at any time if it became publicly known.

Posted by: Jen | Sep 3 2020 0:56 utc | 150

> They either lack imagination or think that people are stupid.

3rd option: they need a clear split. Novichok is new Credo. You are either faithful good person or a vile unruly heretic. You have to prove your faithfulness, son. Credo quia absurdum

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 3 2020 1:07 utc | 151

B's rhetorical question summing his article: Is there a neutral international laboratory that could retest those?

Fat chance: some days ago - and the first link in B's post says as much too - the Charité hospital treating Navalny contacted the Bundeswehr and Porton Down for their, uh, expert opinions.

Meduza: As German officials discuss possible sanctions against Russia, doctors treating Navalny seek help from ‘Novichok’ researchers

Well there goes the notion that a neutral laboratory in, say, Switzerland could retest Navalny's blood samples.

Posted by: Jen | Sep 3 2020 1:20 utc | 152

Last night I emailed the following to a range of people............
Only a fool would think the Kremlin would want to poison Navalny with as claimed ….. NOVICHOK! …… Isn’t it a bit of a “Give-away”?
It is so insulting to anyone with half a brain that in the current set of conditions Putin would want anything to do with what amounts to a nobody like Navalny who at best rates between 2 and 3 percent?

So what’s it about?
Just think …………… Gas!
At the moment and for two years the US has been screaming about NORDSTREAM 2 and threatened Sanctions on anyone and any Country which takes part or allows anything to do with it to take place.
Nordstream 2 has just some tens of Kilometres to go before it hits land at the already built Terminal in Germany what could possibly go wrong at this point?
The US is furious Western Europe is buying Russian Pipeline Gas and has been virtually Blackmailing Western Europe to take its LNG which is dearer? And requiring more Terminals to be built.

There are a few of questions to ask if your brain is working?
• First……. If the Kremlin or Putin were responsible why did they allow Navalny to be extracted to a German Military Hospital?
• Second……. Why Germany?..........Why was Navalny sent to a German Hospital only a few days after he fell ill? With a Private Jet at the ready and he became the personal responsibility of Merkel?
• Third……. If it had been NOVICHOK, Navalny would be dead as an amount the size of a grain of salt will kill you in less than 5 minutes and just the fumes from the cup of tea would affect those around him!
NOVICHOK the most powerful nerve Agent ever created to this point in time!
Yet nobody on the plane has shown any effects nor those attending him at the Airport of departure or his arrival in Omsk?
• Fourth ……. With the cost of Nordstream 2 at around 17 Billion Euros and the US looking for any reason to shut down Germany only an Owner who was a Lunatic would do such a stupid thing!
• Fifth……. The claim of “Poisoning” was already being claimed as he was being wheeled into the Hospital in Omsk?

It’s in every Newspaper around the Globe and you can bet the ABC (The Australian National Broadcaster) will have a Birthday with this one?
I’m sure the Champagne corks are popping?

William Kierath.

Posted by: William Kierath | Sep 3 2020 1:21 utc | 153

@ Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 3 2020 0:23 utc | 145

Albeit improvisations in intelligence are not theoretically impossible to happen (and they do happen to some extent), it still doesn't explain the perfect timing with the Belarusian color revolution attempt. I believe it is impossible the Navalny episode being an intelligence improvisation.

I don't think the USA is directly involved because the American MSM wasn't that into the Belarusian color revolution, and is also not delving into Navalny too much. Even the British MSM is being shy on the Navalny episode (and was relatively shy on Belarus, with the exception, maybe, of The Guardian, that may be sincerely ideologically sympathetic to the "Shoe Revolution"). In a rare episode, the German MSM was more virulent than not only the British one, but also the American one in a PR operation (and, as one commenter here suggested, also the Dutch one, which is an important information if true).

My bet is still that the Belarusian + Navalny "double-header" was mainly an EU's (that is, Germany) operation. Germany wants to absorb East Europe to the sphere of the European Union. This was already demonstrated in the Ukrainian episode, where Mogherini spearheaded the fall of Yanukovich. In this scenario, Germany's strategy is clear: Eastern Europe to be what Latin America was for the USA during the 19th Century. In this context, you don't even have to topple Putin immediately, but just neutralize him, while you gobble up Belarus.

Posted by: vk | Sep 3 2020 1:30 utc | 154

@ #48 Steve re RT. Yes, I've noticed its crude and marked decline also. Most unfortunate.

Posted by: John Gilberts | Sep 3 2020 1:40 utc | 155

William Kierath # 154

Thank you and I fully agree - its all about gas. Ukraine was about gas and pipelines, Syria is about gas and pipelines, Iran is about gas and pipelines, Turkey is about gas and pipelines, Afghanistan is about gas and pipelines etc., etc.,

It is truly disgusting nonsense and belligerent, evil sabre rattling. Beneath contempt but not beneath the idiocy of the bunya nut republic leadership and national broadcaster.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 3 2020 1:55 utc | 156

cj #131

have any of these idiots seen what a nerve agent does to someone. If he got it in his tea, just 1mg or so, he'd be dead in 15 mins! Nothing would stop it -- he'd evacuate his bowels, piss himself, collapse due to bradycardia and his skeletal muscles would stop working due acetylcholine overload, he'd asphyxiate in his own secretions. It would be pretty spectacular and a no brainer for anyone with a medical degree. There would be no cholinesterase activity in his blood. He'd be as dead as dead before they got him anywhere near a hospital. Its all bull.
They gotta stop this anti-Russia stuff its just unbecoming and obviously wrong and worse racist.

Right on, everyone in the vicinity would drop like skittles, there would be dozens of cases inside an aeroplane, the pilots would even be lucky to last more than thirty minutes under control unless they had an entirely isolated oxygen feed.

This is BS in extremis.


Jen #150

Big thank you for that load of info. Stay well.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 3 2020 2:02 utc | 157

Some French had lavender water and rebranded it Chanel no.5; some Brits had artichoke water and renamed it Novichok. Neither are lady killer perfumes, but the latter does tend to make a person disappear from public sight there after.

What I do smell after is fracking US gas and not Russian natural gas.

Posted by: Antonym | Sep 3 2020 2:02 utc | 158

A man's life hangs in the balance and that's all that matters, not all the bullshet.

Skripal and Navalny got together and conspired to take poison or be poisoned and become martyrs to spite Putin.

The CIA poisoned Navalny to get Merkel to back away from Nordstream 2.

That's how stupid some of you come off.

Posted by: Circe | Sep 3 2020 2:04 utc | 159

Without a doubt, MI-6 is behind all of it. It was the UK that pioneered "Putin poisoning Russian dissidents" routine (starting with Litvinenko, then proceeding on to Skripals) after all. That's not to absolve the BND. Obviously, since Navalny is in Germany, the latter must be cooperating. This is all done to prevent any US-Russia rapprochement, which if realized, would present existential risks for Europe.

Posted by: Venom | Sep 3 2020 2:05 utc | 160

Obviously this Navalny affair is a hoax.
The neologism "novichok", prosed closely to the words "Russia" and "Putin", needs reiteration in the feminized mainstream corporate media. (The BBC comes immediately to mind.) It's effect is intended to be emotive rather than intellectual. Any amount of debate over the material intricacies of the hoax is mere chatter. Dominic Cummings has changed the guard at MI6 but this affair seems to possess all the old hallmarks of the Skripal operation, with Angela Merkel as the talking stooge replacing Theresa May.
It helps if one accepts this as a fact: the unfortunate Dawn Sturgess died of a drug overdose. The perfume bottle was placed in the kitchen after her death, to plump out the fake narrative.
Geeez - the nefarious world of espionage seems to be in a critical phase, and has there ever been a stage in the history of the western spy agencies when there appears to be so much activity, so many in their employ? The CIA, the MI6, the European intelligence agencies, the US state department cadres still believing in the righteousness of "humanitarian intervention", 5eyes operatives, NATO employees. They are a war focussed lot. But are they a collegiate network?
I'm reminded of the good old bad old days when James Jesus Angleton of OSS/CIA notoriety and Kim Philby of MI6/Russian agent notoriety became intimates, elite pals in an elite club that for a short and shocking time blended counter espionage between the US and UK., before Philby's exfiltration and exposure.
British spycraft is resolutely and quite irrationally antiRussian. Nothing "transactional" here. The media is their craven mouthpiece, and certain journalists are members of the elite club. It's a class thing, very British, and the 5eyes understand this subtlety. They can play the game.( For example, the former Australian FM, Alexander Downer).
I sense that US espionage has different characteristics, plausible deniability being a significant aspect. MI6 is brazen. But they have infiltrated the media very successfully, and the "creative" narrative has emotional resonance. I believe they imagine their audience to be feminine, and it helps that Mr Navalny is an attractive man.
I wonder if the British administration of espionage see themselves as architects of regime change "colour revolutions", in competition, rather than cooperation, with the CIA?.

Posted by: Australian lady | Sep 3 2020 3:13 utc | 161

You would think that the propagandists would at least blush over the sheer absurdity of their claims but, alas, no.

Look, this is a fact: Navalny was *not* treated for a military-grade nerve agent for at least the first two days i.e. when he was in the care of Russian physicians in Omsk.

And, obviously, this is also an fact: The Dude Isn't Dead.

As far as I can see there are only two ways anyone can reconcile those two incontestable facts:
1) A "Novichok" isn't at all what the Western media is claiming it to be, or
2) The Dude was never exposed to "Novichok"

All other explanations are contradicted by one or other of those two incontestable facts e.g. if "Novichok" is super-deadly then he'd be dead. But he isn't dead.

Go figure, heh?

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Sep 3 2020 3:18 utc | 162

@160 "A man's life hangs in the balance and that's all that matters, not all the bullshet."

A pathetic observation. There are countless "man's lives" hanging in the balance every day, in every critical care facility on the planet.
But in THIS one case that's very definitely not "all that matters", as any glance at the newspapers will tell you.

His illness is being used by people with an agenda, circe, and not in a good way.

So the question of how he fell ill - and why fingers are pointing in all directions - matters a very great deal.

Honestly, how can you not see that?

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Sep 3 2020 3:24 utc | 163

Wauw b, another coverage of Navalny where you trully show your colours again. Intelligence (orders) are a bitch, ain't they? :)

Such a simple answers to all your basic questions:

- the Skripals are in New Zealand. DYOR !
- the Kremlin cannot stop a citizen leaving the country, but stalling the doctors to release the patient was an option. Exactly what happened
- expecting test results from Russian laboratories that are not manipulated by the Kremlin? A bit naive, are you?
- a very small dosis in hot tea that Navalny just drinks by himself, easy right?
- a Pussy Riot member - another discredited Kremlin person perhaps? - was saved in this same hospital a few years ago, also after being poisoned and offerded the same live saving solution for
- the only operation that happened is the poisoning of Navalny and the on going operation saving his life medically and protecting him from more danger

You have certainly unleashed all the trolls, mostly.during Russian office hours of course, except if you live physically in Germany
Posted by: Vladimir | Sep 2 2020 22:19 utc | 125

==============

High quality work, Vladimir! Color me impressed (colour?)

Lets go from the top.

1. Skripals in New Zealand. True? If you believe everything printed/posted on-line by British "quality press". But according to New Zealanders...

It was a report in the largest-selling British national newspaper, with a circulation of 650,000, in the 'quality press' market category distinguished for its seriousness (Sunday Times).

And it gave credence to similar reports that the Skripals were looking to relocate to Australia or New Zealand "to start a new life" that surfaced in the Daily Mail in March.

With little further elaboration within the fresh Sunday Times report, the possibility of the Skripals becoming Kiwis was pressed to Jacinda Ardern that same day on June 8.

"I think what I can say is don't believe every piece of speculation that you read," the Prime Minister said.

The slightly cryptic refusal by Ardern to outright deny the claim is typical of diplomatic intelligence lingo, say intelligence experts.

2. the Kremlin cannot stop a citizen leaving the country, but stalling the doctors to release the patient was an option. Exactly what happened

Number one, you need an exit visa to leave Russia. Stopping someone from leaving by a plane is simplicity itself. Number two, doctors did not stall much, if a patient is in a critical condition, it takes some observation and testing to allow a long airplane trip, so I do not see how they could release him faster.

3. Russian labs --> not run by the new, improved OPCW, so not the worst in the world.

4. - a very small dosis in hot tea that Navalny just drinks by himself, easy right?

Lot's of practice, Vladimir, eh? Or it is armchair warrior writing? Navalny with groupies enter the airport lounge. In my village airport there is but one spot to get tea, but Tomsk has more than 100k people in the metro area, so probably there are more. So the boss with groupies sit down at a table, and a groupie goes to get tea in a plastic cup. Now to know that this would happen, and who will drink it? For that matter, what would happen if the groupie ask for a tray of drinks including more than one tea -- not a rare choice of a drink in Russia. Would the plan unravel? According to an article, groupies of Navalny were remarkably conspiratorial and paranoid, and Navalny himself had quite original taste, like eating sushi at 11 pm. Why they did not bring a tea favored by the boss in a thermos bottle? (I avoid drinking airport tea if possible. A thermos bottle with my own tea bags is a must for me, just get the hot water. Tea may be better in Tomsk than in USA, I grant you that, but ...)

Would the powers to be in Tomsk need to replace everybody in the food service of Tomsk International to enact this plan discretely, without poisoning everybody? That would not be that discrete. But can you simply order people untrained in preparing poisons in a split of a second (select a teabag with Novichock brand surreptitiously placed in a teabag box, not mixing it with the stuff for the regular passengers? They should not be very visibly marked...).

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Sep 3 2020 3:25 utc | 164

Constantine @86 - I agree fully with your rebuke to vk about how necessary it was to execute polish POWs, in Katyn and elsewhere. The truth is that Stalin was aware how legally shaky was Beria´s idea to commit this crime - Stalin insisted on signatures of 4 others beside him. (the faxsimile of this order is in the book by Pavel Sudoplatov, "Special Tasks" - available through internet. The scribe vk is apparently a strong headed person to say it mildly.

Posted by: bystander 04 | Sep 3 2020 4:27 utc | 165

Have you heard anything about the "Integrity Initiative" ? I forgot where I got that information. It's about a governemental influence group whose job is to make us believe what the British government wants. The Skripal thing, the Russiagate hoax, the Steele dossier are all strongly connected to UK. The sniff test tells me they're military psyops. It's not a proof but they do smell like manipulations. Now I have the same smell in my mouth with that Navalny thing.
A war is being waged. It's not a kinetic one but a real war is on. I'll be labeled many bad things if, for any reason, I'll be noticed but destroying a non-person like me if I get traction would only be a confirmation.
I'm in the fog and one side of that war totally lost my trust.

Posted by: DidierF | Sep 3 2020 4:34 utc | 166

@karlof1 | 25
"the upcoming 75th anniversary of the UN"
Had missed this and your comment. Thanks for the info.
And I agree, Putin will not mince his words )))
Will be well worth watching.

Posted by: AtaBrit | Sep 3 2020 4:37 utc | 167

@ DidierF | Sep 3 2020 4:34 utc | 167.. most all the readers here are familiar with "Integrity Initiative" - yes... i am sure they or a similar number of intel related groups are in on this.. yes...

Posted by: james | Sep 3 2020 4:54 utc | 168

Like your reportage, but you have made the comment that Novichok hasn’t killed anyone - Dawn Sturgess in Salisbury is alleged to have been killed by the poison.

Posted by: David | Sep 3 2020 5:18 utc | 169

Yeah, Right @Sep3 3:18 #163

Not only is Russia incapable of killing people that Putin wants dead but Putin, like Assad, can't help acting against his own best interest.

Putin had to, just had to, shoot himself in the foot as NordStream2 nears completion, Belarus color revolution is ending, and a new UN session is about to start (at which he is bound to be criticial of USA's UNSC maneuver to re-impose UN sanctions against Iran will be an issue) (ht karlof1 @25).

PS For those who don't know: it's often been noted at moa that Western MSM points fingers at Assad for chemical WMD attacks despite such attacks by Syria being nonsensical (they are winning the war) and counterproductive (prompting Western outrage and USA missile attacks).

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 3 2020 5:48 utc | 170

@ Yeah, Right and jackrabbit -

Bingo. LOL too bad we won't see any reporting that's honest and consistent. As b asked - is "novichok" the least effective assassination poisoning agent ever or what? LMAO

Posted by: _K_C_ | Sep 3 2020 5:51 utc | 171

Uncle Tungsten @ 158:

I am keeping very well thanks, and never more so when British propaganda at its finest (NOT!!!) is in full-blown cranking mode going round and round in its worn-out ruts.

Especially when the best brains at MI6 and probably The Guardian are put together to regurgitate the vomit.

Next thing you know, the ICC will open its inquiry into Navalny's supposed poisoning while he awaits his saviour princess to kiss him so that he can cough up the poisoned tea and finally awake - mainly if we can find Julia Skripal, she might just be the ideal heroine to release him from his coma prison - and presto, Sir Robert Owen will appear to give his verdict that since (in his august opinion) the Russian President probably gave the order to poison Navalny, that he (Putin) is indeed guilty, guilty, guilty.

Posted by: Jen | Sep 3 2020 6:37 utc | 172

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 3 2020 1:07 utc | 152

"Novichok is new Credo. You are either faithful good person or a vile unruly heretic. You have to prove your faithfulness, son. Credo quia absurdum"

That's typical of their propaganda and the subsequent social pressure the system hopes to engender against skeptics and dissidents. It's striking how the Novichok party line is a specialized microcosm of the vastly larger Covid party line in each and every way, right down to it being some kind of plot on the part of the nefarious Russians (Novichok) or Chinese (Covid).

Meanwhile, since we're on the subject of poisoning, almost every government on Earth, but most egregiously Western governments and their apes, continues to push the wholesale poisoning of our bodies, the water, food, air, soil, and overall environment with pesticides and every other kind of industrial poison. And there too, just as with the "pandemic" and with alleged Russian poisonings, the government media demands conformity to the globalist-technocratic party line and seeks to drum up bottom-up social pressure.

That certainly puts Covid, let alone Novichok, in its rightful perspective, and what a fraud almost anyone who goes around blathering about "public health" is.

Posted by: Russ | Sep 3 2020 6:39 utc | 173

This is not the Onion

A former Soviet scientist separately suggested that assassins could have broken into Navalny's hotel room and sprinkled poison on his clothes.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8688831/Assassins-sprinkled-poison-Alexei-Navalnys-underwear.html

At least they keeping us amused as they rush off to war.

Posted by: Tom | Sep 3 2020 6:48 utc | 174

'Funny how Novichok, the "military grade", "most deadly" poison, never kills anyone.'
Is there any firm evidence for this claim? I'm thinking of Dawn Sturgess.

Posted by: Ian Perkins | Sep 3 2020 6:56 utc | 175

Jen | Sep 3 2020 1:20 utc | 152

Jen, any laboratory given test specs by Porton Down will most likely find traces of their brew. Russia will have to get on top of this as the PD brew is likely to be used more in the future.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 3 2020 7:34 utc | 176

@David 169 , yes Dawn Sturgess was killed by novichok, but I think we can consider that a demonstration on an expendable guineapig to prove that the substance exists and is functional , with a vague association that a bottle of perfume was carelessly discarded by Russian agents who obviously must have carried a complete bodycare set but the bath salts (with 6 different fragrances) , moisturizers and body scrub were luckily never picked up from the other garbage bins.

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Sep 3 2020 7:34 utc | 177

Integrity intitative, I don't think it's directly relevant here
but it is a major antirussian propaganda initiative which was discussed early on by http://syriapropagandamedia.org/working-papers/briefing-note-on-the-integrity-initiative
and at length here
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/01/integrity-initiative-new-documents-from-shady-ngo-released.html
I was quite impressed by Mohamed Elmaazi who wrote and overview
https://thegrayzone.com/2018/12/17/inside-the-temple-of-covert-propaganda-the-integrity-initiative-and-the-uks-scandalous-information-war/
and discusses it at length here
http://aroundtheempire.com/tag/integrity-initiative/

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Sep 3 2020 7:38 utc | 178

neither skripals nor navalny are complete hoax as such. all took a substance with or without thier knowledge that caused the group of symptoms. it's a brit or US substance so should be called newcomer rather than Russian language novichok (newcomer)

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 3 2020 7:40 utc | 179

Why FSB etc would have even poisoned political dwarf like Navalnyi? This case really stinks pro west operation.

Posted by: Matias | Sep 3 2020 8:16 utc | 180

@166

Chris Donnelly, Integrity Initiative:

"(...) it’s important for us and not just for Ukraine, of getting the population to understand that it is at war, but it is a new kind of war; and get the political elite to learn how to fight the war; and thirdly to find a way to get the people to understand how to develop a war-time mentality that deals with this kind of hybrid war. And part of that is knowing what democratic institutions need to be amended or suspended to allow the country to fight the war successfully, and how to ensure that the population has faith that when the war ends – and that the war will have an end – that then the freedoms and rights which were suspended when the war started to enable the country to fight the war – will be returned to them."

http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/08/10/rules-for-peacetime-dont-work-when-youre-at-war-for-national-survival/

Posted by: Cherrycoke | Sep 3 2020 8:23 utc | 181

uncle tungsten 123

link?

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 3 2020 8:46 utc | 182

a link to an official Russian statement or a statement by doctors involved in navalny's case is not too much to ask for.
Skultzy boy is a bit of of a dreamer and far from the the docs treating the clown.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Sep 3 2020 8:50 utc | 183

David #169

Dawn Sturgess died - yes - the coroner has been cooperatively nobbled to make no finding. It is not clear if it was Novihoax or fentanyl or some other substance.

Best research site for that sorry saga is theblogmire. Take a close look through the archives. The author, Rob Slane lives in or near Salisbury where the Skripal hoax was staged.

Keep your eye on that site as it may publish something given the Navalny BS about novihoax.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 3 2020 9:03 utc | 184

The Navalny case is now being explicitly linked to Nordstream and reported by the BBC with people saying the west needs to hit Putin where it hurts by preventing the completion of the pipeline.

Posted by: the pessimist | Sep 3 2020 9:05 utc | 185

Peter AU1 #182

see Jen | Sep 3 2020 0:42 utc | 149

I will trawl the thread now as I have been thrashing about in the hay and the orchard for hours.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 3 2020 9:12 utc | 186

> Posted by: Tom | Sep 3 2020 6:48 utc | 174

- You!!! Scumbag! Pervert! Get out of my pants now!!!
- Calm down, calm down lady! There is nothing filthy, i am just trying to poison you! Please, calm down, you interfere with my work!

> Posted by: Russ | Sep 3 2020 6:39 utc

See! Western governments are democratic and egalitarian, they poison everyone indiscriminatly, while Kremlin dictatorship poisons selectively and with prejudice!!!

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 3 2020 9:26 utc | 187

vk | Sep 2 2020 16:52 utc | 23
"As to the question about who's behind it, I hope it was asked rhetorically, because it is obvious it's the BND. It would be weird for a country of Germany's caliber to give a foreign power's intelligence agency full control of its laboratories."

Well, it shows that the BND is completely controlled by the CIA.
Merkel is a curious case, she gets personally involved in the accusations of poisoning:


Angela Merkel said there was "shocking information" that showed "beyond a doubt" that the poisoning of Alexei Navalny was "an attempted murder with nerve agent" after a toxicology test in Germany showed that the opposition leader had been targeted with Novichok.

Merkel said Navalny was "the victim of a crime intended to silence him." She said the gravity of that fact made it important for her to "take a clear stance."

The chancellor said the case raises "very serious questions that only the Russian government can answer — and must answer," adding, "the world will wait for an answer."

But she also keeps pushing for Nordstream 2:


"I believe that these issues should be viewed separately. I also think that the construction of Nord Stream should be finished. This is a project carried out by economic actors from Russia and Europe. [...] I believe it would be unreasonable to link this economic initiative to the Navalny situation," Merkel said at an annual summer conference on Friday.

There are obviously 2 competing factions that are able to exert control over her.

Posted by: pepa65 | Sep 3 2020 9:32 utc | 188

Peter AU1 #182

I did search on MoA top of screen on right for "cholinesterase" and got lots of hits that are of interest - too many to reprint here.

The first page has about three hiqh likely worth reading and there was more than one page.

Here are the first two worth a peek.


Jen on The Back And Forth About Navalny's 'Poisoning'
Aha - found MPNs comment @ 12, clicked on the link to Elena Evdokimovas tweets and then clicked on a link she provides and here is another article (from Zhurnalistskaya Pravda) on Dmitri Petrovskys comments about Navalnys treatment in Germa
Comment by Jen | August 25, 2020 at 23:21 | Permalink

That is reposted by Jen with ++ at #149


Debsisdead on The MoA Week In Review - Open Thread 2020-67
Coupla papers which could interest those who can be bothered with such things. The first A randomised controlled study of the effect of cholinesterase inhibition on colon function in patients with diabetes mellitus and constipation details
Comment by Debsisdead | August 25, 2020 at 09:06 | Permalink

That demonstrated the limits of functionality of the the search function in that it found and displayed the comment summary above but would not link so I would have to scroll through to find Debisdead post on that thread. yuck but is could be my OS as it is not either of the big two. Later I will spin this again on a windows device.

Take a look at the search function and I will take my axe with me to the Windows machine.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 3 2020 9:37 utc | 189

If to jump on conpiracy bandvagon - it could be "rebellion on the knees".

Germans could not openly said BS, they are obliged to agree with USA public stances, so they do reductio ad absurdum instead.

"Yes, this all is just a circus and we are just clowns, for those who missed last chapters".

Kind of what Trump is doing with American glorified Foreign Policy - can not revert but can expose.

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 3 2020 9:39 utc | 190

Remember the USA with kind assistance from the BND has been tapping everything Merkel does for years.
So they will know her psychological hot buttons and will design every tactic to 'guide' her to their ends.
They will have key informants in the parliament to advise them.

They play for keeps and they will do EVERYTHING to stop the gas connection.
Plus they will have ginned up the rightist fronts that Bannon has been caressing for months to squeeze from their territorial desire for restoring the fatherland empire.

A bit like a Sting -

Every breath you take
And every move you make
Every bond you break
Every step you take
I'll be watching you

Every single day
And every word you say
Every game you play
Every night you stay
I'll be watching you

Oh, can't you see
You belong to me
Now my poor heart aches
With every step you take

Every move you make
Every vow you break
Every smile you fake
Every claim you stake
I'll be watching you

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 3 2020 9:47 utc | 191

On display is the arrogance, deceit and incomprehensible hubris motivating this concurrence of the poisoning scandals as a defamatory weapon by malingering Western Intelligence agencies particularly the British M16 employing unselfconsciously the reputed principles of information and hybrid warfare which it extols as the means to control and manipulate the thoughts, opinions and feelings of UK type media saturated consumerist populations. The class nature and vindictiveness of the UK deep state shows their utter and total contempt for the intelligence of domestic populations but also revealing the unreality that the ruling class pervades in its extravagant efforts to resuscitate the cold war against Russia and distract from the economic implosion which haunts its animal instincts.

Posted by: rick | Sep 3 2020 10:21 utc | 192

Peter AU1

Search sucks.

here is Debsisdead contribution #178 on the week in review:-

Coupla papers which could interest those who can be bothered with such things.
The first A randomised controlled study of the effect of cholinesterase inhibition on colon function in patients with diabetes mellitus and constipation details the efficacy of some cholinesterase inhibitors in the treatment of diabetics, particularly those whose guts have frozen, so require a 'kick along' to get 'em moving again. The second Cholinesterase inhibitors in patients with diabetes mellitus and dementia: an open-cohort study of ~23 000 patients from the Swedish Dementia Registry recounts how specialists in gerontic care held off prescribing Cholinesterase inhibitors for patients with diabetes suffering from dementia, but the studies authors demonstrated that not only were Cholinesterase inhibitors effective for treating diabetics, reduction in diabetes-related mortality was associated with cholinesterase inhibitor use.
So what? Well if Navalny presented as a patient in a diabetic coma at Omsk, prescription of a cholinesterase inhibitor is a proven remedy.

Links didnt transfer so you can goto that thread and Debsisdead at #178.

To get past the major search limitation I copied all comments from the thread in batches of 100 and then pasted into a word processor and searched that for Debsisdead to find the post. Arduous but it worked. Also worked to find cholinesterase mentions too.

It would be good if b could finesse that search function but it may not be possible. The search function is ONLY available on the MAIN page and not subsidiary threads :(

I wish I had Wordperfect again. I used to make that chicken sing.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 3 2020 10:25 utc | 193

Now why would I trust a bunch of Trump bootlickers in service of Russian interests here to make correct assumptions regarding the poisoning of Navalny?

The difference here is that I have no masters. I only serve the truth.

After a while, multiple assassinations that conveniently neutralize Putin's foes become kind of hard to splain away with conspiracy theories of pipelines and whatnot.

I'm done with Russia. It no longer strives for the greater good of maintaining balance of power since Putin aligned himself with Trump and Netanyahoo to screw over Iran and China.

Putin's so cocky, he knows Merkel won't stop a pipeline that serves Germany's economic interests because his friends messily tried to off one activist thorn in his side.

There will be back and forth finger-wagging and accusations and then Putin will sail into another Presidency especially now since he adopted Zionism. That's the key to holding on to power that he figured out.

Corruption is king in this world.

Posted by: Circe | Sep 3 2020 10:29 utc | 194

rick #192

YES and those scumbags have been doing that for centuries.

Where are the scientists who know this is patently BS. When will they speak out LOUDLY debunking this con job?

If novihoax is the worlds most powerful toxic agent there would be bodies strewn everywhere. If Navalny got it in his tea he would be dead before the plane was airborne and so would everyone at the table and anyone who cleaned up the table.

If he got it in the airplane there would be dead people everywhere who got near him - and long dead by the time the plane landed at Omsk.

This is a blatant fake nonsense.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 3 2020 10:33 utc | 195

@157 uncle tungsten

You sure went through a whole lot of trouble for nothing!

Posted by: Circe | Sep 3 2020 10:44 utc | 196

Actually I was referring to your 193, not 157.

Posted by: Circe | Sep 3 2020 10:47 utc | 197

Circe> Now why would I trust a bunch of Trump bootlickers in service of Russian interests here to make correct assumptions regarding the poisoning of Navalny?

So the problem for you is not about facts and reasons you can deliberate on, but merely about choosing you a prophet you would unquestioningly "trust" and retransmit ?

Then sure, "bunch of Trump bootlickers" might be a bad music roll for your barrel organ to play back.
I wonder what would be criteria to choose a good one then.

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 3 2020 10:49 utc | 198

@Circe

'The difference here is that I have no masters. I only serve the truth.'

So, then truth must be your master. Your 'truth'?

Funny, oh, and you're welcome.

Posted by: Hmpf | Sep 3 2020 10:53 utc | 199

uncle tungsten> The search function is ONLY available on the MAIN page and not subsidiary threads

go into Google or DuckDuckGo and there enter "cholinesterase site:moonofalabama.org"

does it make the trick?

I think every browser today let's you define your own search method, which will be accessible by simply selecting a word and pressing right mouse button.
Old Opera (now dead) provided for it for decades. Vivaldi provides for it.
Do not have vanilla Chrome or Firefox to try.
Falkon AFAIR can too, but can't run on this videocard to check it.

> if b could finesse that search function but it may not be possible

Hardly so. He will not even add one passive CSS rule to make links rendered properly, without hiding them or disrupting text width. Tuning search boxes and implanting them into pages which don't have them is few orders of magnitude more work.

But why should you be dependent upon some benevolent governemnt - be that B or Trump or Putin or whoever - to make your life more comfortable? That is in your own hands already! If you need this kind of search - add it to your computer, not ask someone for permission to have it.

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 3 2020 11:01 utc | 200

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