Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 26, 2020
In Which We Debunk A Covidiot Pamphlet

On the recent open thread commentator ADKC quoted from a post at the corona-nonsense blog Off-Guardian. The piece, published last week, is an updated rehash of one the same author posted in April.

The more recent version is unfortunately no better than the old one. It repeats false numbers, is scientifically astonishingly inaccurate, and draws false conclusions.

It makes little sense to review and refute the whole mess. I will therefore concentrate on the 6 of the 8 "Take Home Messages" at the end of the piece which ADKC posted here:

1. Corona viruses are one of the viral agents of the common cold, which, just like the flu, invade the whole planet every year. They cause largely widespread, mostly benign, yearly pandemics of respiratory tract infections.

There are seven distinct corona viruses that infect humans. Four of those can cause the common cold. The infections are generally mild. At times they have more severe consequences like pneumonia. The infection fatality rate for these four corona viruses is estimated to be about 0.1%.

The three other corona viruses, SARS, MERS and SARS-CoV-2 are very different beasts. They cause very severe symptoms in a significant numbers of the infected people. The infection fatality rate for SARS was 9% and for MERS it is even 37%. The true infection fatality rate for SARS-CoV-2 depends on various circumstances (health service availability, social and medical conditions of the population etc.) but is currently estimated to be around 1%.

To mix up the four corona viruses that cause the common cold with the three viruses that have 10 to 370 times higher death rates is highly misleading.

Next point:

2. COVID-19, the infection caused by SARS-CoV-2, the current corona mutation, is not more lethal than the flu, with a 0.1-0.2% infection fatality rate.

This is a. outright nonsense that has no scientific basis and b. a lie.

SARS-CoV-2 is not a 'mutation' of some general coronavirus (there is none). Its nearest 'relative' is the RaTG13 virus known to be carried by certain bats:

Simplot analysis showed that 2019-nCoV was highly similar throughout the genome to RaTG13 (Fig. 1c), with an overall genome sequence identity of 96.2%.

Humans share some 96 percent of their genes with other primates. But no one would call a human to be a 'mutation' of an ape.

Evolution works through billions of iterative mutations until something unique evolves that fits to its environment. The surviving results of the evolutionary process are unique in kind. SARS-CoV-2 is a very special beast that is unique in its kind and effects.

Now to the bigger blooper in point 2: "is not more lethal than the flu, with a 0.1-0.2% infection fatality rate".

That is outright false and easy to refute. Just take a look at New York City which in April was hit hard during its first wave peak:



Source: 91-Divocbigger

The infection fatality rate for New York City can be easily calculated. Some 26% of the 8.3 million inhabitants of New York City now carry antibodies against the virus. Those 2.1 million who are seropositive must have had a SARS-CoV-2 infection. The officially reported Covid-19 caused death toll for New York City is some 23,000. However the more accurate total excess death toll beyond normal levels was 27,000.


Source: NYT, Sep. 23bigger

27,000 dead divided through 2.1 million infections gives an Infection Fatality Rate of 1.29%. That is ten times higher than the IFR number the Off-Guardian author claims.

New York City is special in that it is a high density city and has a diverse demographic with many higher risk groups living in relatively crowded quarters. But similar calculations can be made for other areas where sufficient data is available. Lombardy in Italy reported a higher IFR than NYC as did some areas in Spain. Other locations, with younger, more healthy people and better healthcare, will have lower infection fatality rates.

For the United States the general seroprevalence of SARS-CoV-2 antibodies in blood donations is only 2%. More dubious estimates claim 8 to 9% overall seroprevalence in the United States. Let's be generous and assume that 10% of the 330 million strong U.S. population have already been infected. The current excess death count for the United States stands at 266,000. Those numbers (266,000/33,000,000) would give a (likely too optimistic) IFR of 0.8%. That is again far, far higher than the Off-Guardian author claims.

The next claim in the Off-Guardian nonsense:

3. An immense majority (95%) of fatal evolutions happen in old and frail individuals with premorbidities, with an average age of death at or above 80 years old.

That claim is again an outright lie:

Of the roughly 1.2 million American deaths that occurred between February 1 and June 17, almost 9% were due to coronavirus. The proportion of deaths due to coronavirus were about the same for each age group above 45 years. Below that, the proportion of deaths due to coronavirus fell dramatically.


Source: ACSHbigger

The numbers in the second column of the table show that only about half of the total Covid-19 fatalities, not 95%, were "at or above 80 years old".

As for "premorbidities" (being alive is btw one). Hypertension and obesity are named as co-morbidities for Covid-19 cases. The CDC says that 42% of all U.S. inhabitants are obese while some 45% have hypertension. But today these people are alive and reasonably well. Most of them have still several decades of life before them. If they were to get infected with SARS-CoV-2 and die, the virus, not their co-morbidities, would have caused their death.

On to the next Off-Guardian blooper:

4. Antibody studies, cross immunization with other corona strains and the completion of the death toll curve in many countries are strong evidence that the human population is developing herd immunity against SARS-CoV-2. In this context, a severe “second wave” for SARS-CoV-2 is improbable. We may rather expect a new cold episode from it just like every year, but of regular or even weak intensity thanks to the gained herd immunity.

Antibody prevalence even in hard hit place like New York City is way below the 80% or so that would be needed for some kind of "herd immunity". In the U.S. and Europe antibody prevalence is in total way less than 10%. The bay area for example has only some 2%. Is the U.S. ready to give 10 times more lives than the 266,000 who have already died of Covid-19 to achieve a only potentially temporary herd immunity?

Cross immunization with other corona viruses is a conjecture. We have so far no data that shows that there is cross immunity from other viruses that works against SARS-CoV-2.

(Recent data points in the other direction. Children have an innate immune response to SARS-CoV-2 and it protects them well. Every adult has been infected with dozens of different viruses while growing up. We adults have developed and show an adaptive immune response to SARS-CoV-2. This seems to work less well than the children's response. Instead of developing cross immunity through other infections our bodies seem to have learned something (pdf) from previous infections that makes it more difficult to counter SARS-CoV-2.)

The "improbable" second wave of Covid 19 is already developing in several European countries. Just take a look at France. And don't worry. The rise in the still low death toll WILL follow the infection curve with a four weeks lag.


Source: 91-Divocbigger

On to 'don't take home' message number 5:

5. PCR testing of SARS-CoV-2 presence does not give any reliable prognostic evidence of its infectious power and lethality. The monitoring of the pandemic state and evolution is given only by the daily evolution of fatalities. In Switzerland as in many other countries, there is no longer any excess mortality attributable to the COVID-19 pandemic. Positive test rate is low (around 3%), and tests have as always a technical false positive rate and react to inactive viral fragments or to other corona strains.

The author says that to evaluate the state of the pandemic we should follow the number (death) that is known to lag at least four weeks behind infections instead of following the number of new infections per day. That is lunatic. Its driving at high speed while only looking into the rear view mirror. During a highly dynamic pandemic we need current infection data and predictions, not reviews.

Also: SARS-CoV-2 PCR tests DO NOT react to other coronaviruses. The RNA strings they are reacting to are unique to SARS-CoV-2. The tests can not even 'see' any other ones.

On to point 6:

6. Only in a small percentage of COVID-19 patients, the SARS-CoV-2 virus may, like the flu virus, activate an immunological and inflammatory overresponse, causing at worst fatal pulmonary organ failure.

Stress and emotions like fear, anger and sadness may 1) stimulate this overresponse, 2) cause cell death in the emotional brain and 3) trigger therein deleterious overactivities, with resulting cell damages in body tissues.

General isolation, distancing and lockdown measures, by limiting social contacts, freedom and basic human rights, add to the death toll through an upsurge of psychosocial and economic destabilization, worsening of psychiatric and demented individuals and reduction of medical care to the whole population. We have thus a combined causality for an excess mortality of COVID-19, a significant part of it being not due to the SARS-CoV-2 virus itself but to the worldwide COVID-19 panic wave and the imposed introduction of drastic and inhumane measures.

That is the "Lockdowns kill" thesis that many covidiots use to claim that negative side effects of pandemic control measures outweigh their positive effects.

The thesis is wrong. Spain had a total lockdown everywhere between March 14 and May 9. It also had a lot of excess death. A large countrywide seroprevalence study showed where the most people were infected. That data is available on a granular and localized level.

BakuninsTraum @BakuninsT – 23:42 UTC · Sep 25, 2020

In the following, I have investigated how the seroprevalence of IgG antibodies in the different parts of Spain correlates with the associated excess mortality rate. /8

I used the results of this epidemiological study as a basis for my analysis:
link
I also used data from the following report on excess mortality:
link

The excess mortality is very different in various parts of the country: (pic) /10

The seroprevalence of IgG antibodies also varies greatly: (pic) /11

@BakuninsT finds that while all of Spain was under lock down only those locations who had high infection rates, and therefore now show high antibody seroprevalence, had excess death.

The regression lines show that the infections – excess death data correlates extremely well. High infection rates caused high excess death:


bigger

bigger

Those locations who were in lockdown but had few or no infections did not have any excess death.

BakuninsTraum @BakuninsT – 23:42 UTC · Sep 25, 2020

Conclusion:
The thesis that excess mortality is a consequence of a lockdown has been refuted. The regression line intersects the X-axis, i.e. there is no excess mortality where there are no infections. /16

I hope that ADKC and others who continue to post unscientific screeds from the Off-Guardian and elsewhere have learned a bit from the above. There are quite a number of authors with titles who have preconceived opinions and defend them even when that requires mangling the facts or to simply lie about the science. A professor emeritus of neurosurgery is unlikely to be the best available source for current virology and epidemiology facts. Don't fall for such 'experts'.

In the run-up to the war on Iraq "the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy." That is exactly what the piece we discussed above has done. It should not have been published. With respect to Covid-19 the Off-Guardian editors seems to replicate the Bush administration's lack of veracity.

Comments

b. your statements are as nonsensical as the off-guardian ones.
Simple logic. If one and the same virus has very different effects in different countries (compare e.g. Japanese death rate to Germany’s) then it is either not the same virus or the effects are not caused by the virus.
This virus has left the realm of science and entered politics. Or how do you explain the demented insistence this autumn on the rising number of infections most people don’t feel and the silence on the equally rising number of tests people are forced to take because of “risk”, not because they feel any symptoms.
I hope this nonsense will be over after US elections. Democrat strategy banks on the virus and Trump’s strategy banks on the economy.
And no, Sars-Cov-2 is not “new” but obviously – see its name – very similar to human Sars-Cov-1 and bat Sars-Cov. And yes, it is all Corona, some more dangerous and some less, like influenza can be more dangerous and less, so like every year in the flue season healthy people have cross immunity.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 27 2020 10:40 utc | 101

Correction to my @99:
Seriously, look at yourself in the mirror. The truth hurts, but lies can kill. You aren’t redeeming yourself just by expertly laying out the truth on Covid, so I refuse to give you a pass, cause you do a lot of damage every other day fixing the facts around your Trump policy.

Posted by: Circe | Sep 27 2020 10:59 utc | 102

As long as the Trump /Johnson opposition are devided ‘they’ will always win, always laugh at the success of there devide and rule. Now is not the time to exploite this important subject to score petty points. Rise above that.
If your genuine opposition show it, if not own it.
We lost the Gardian, we lost the Labour Party, off Gardian is now an elite freandly rebel distroying from within.
I get used to it, but I don’t like it.
Will we never learn —— own goal !!

Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 27 2020 11:14 utc | 103

Flounder says:
… However, your refusal to see the deception of their virtual “pandemic” as a domestic weapons of mass destruction is deeply disturbing. You start with ad hominem and then present the same state promoted statistics, while being incapable of interpreting new data of doctored death figures and your own eyes…
yeah, the back and forth is now officially insufferable.
here’s Mike Whitney:
Everywhere in the western world, freedom is collapsing faster than a corrugated lean-to in a Kansas tornado. Meanwhile in panic-stricken America, fainthearted proles continue to hide behind their sofas waiting for the faux-plague to pass. Do they even see the train-wreck just ahead? Author Gary D. Barnett summed it up like this:
At this moment in time we are standing on a precipice with the state attempting to push us over the edge. Once over that edge, there will be no coming back. This is why if the people fight back in mass, and withhold all support from the governing demons, we can awaken from this nightmare, and regain normalcy

Posted by: john | Sep 27 2020 11:20 utc | 104

Posted by: Circe | Sep 27 2020 10:59 utc | 102
Basic rule of warfare: Weapons one side uses can be aquired and used by other sides as well. Everything is morally justified if you are on the good side.
This will end in mutual destruction if noone deescalates.
Or – talking about viruses and biological warfare –
what goes around comes around.
See perception management
“Covidiot” is like “conspiracy theorist” part of psychological warfare.
Like with 9/11 there are layers upon layers upon layers of “influence” –
in secret service, military, finance, business, science, media, politics – it all adds up to warfare.
The US and a large part of the world have become societies ruled by global feudal warlords.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 27 2020 11:31 utc | 105

Posted by: john | Sep 27 2020 11:20 utc | 104 This is why if the people fight back in mass, and withhold all support from the governing demons, we can awaken from this nightmare, and regain normalcy
Now *that* is what one can call absolutely delusional.
We will now all come together and sing Kum-bayah…not. Whitney has to be a complete moron to ever contemplate the possibility – after 10,000 years of the opposite.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Sep 27 2020 11:52 utc | 106

b- “But no one would call a human to be a ‘mutation’ of an ape”
Isn’t that really what many people suggest humans are? Evolved from apes. Mutations of apes, over time. As one coronavirus evolves from another? Over time? Why yes, it is. It’s the theory of evolution.
This Covid-19 does share similar traits to other’s in it’s viral family because it looks as if immune protection from Covid 19 is bestowed upon us , by our immune system, due to the fact that we’ve been exposed to previous coronavirus,
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/immune-cells-common-cold-may-recognize-sars-cov-2
Which would also inform us the two viruses are related
b- “look at New York… ”
cherry picked data? Pick another locale and you can’t make the same claims.
Problems with PCR Testing… would this Professor be acceptable to b? My opinion is that he’s vastly more knowledgeable then yourself
https://www.hospimedica.com/covid-19/articles/294784371/oversensitive-covid-19-tests-detecting-dead-coronavirus-cells-driving-false-positives-and-reinfections.html
“A study by the Oxford University’s Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine (Oxford, England) suggests that the current COVID-19 diagnostic tests could be too sensitive and may be detecting dead coronavirus cells, leading to overestimated infections.
According to the researchers, the tests used to diagnose COVID-19 are so sensitive that they may be indicating people are infected with SARS-CoV-2 even when they had the virus 70 days ago.
Prof Carl Heneghan, director of the Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine, believes that eight days after contracting COVID-19, the chances of an infected person passing on the virus to others become zero if there are no symptoms. However, fragments of the coronavirus can still remain in the body for several weeks afterwards.
Polymerase chain reaction (PCR) tests currently used to detect SARS-CoV-2 have technical limitations as they cannot distinguish whether the virus in the patient is alive or dead. The researchers analyzed 25 studies on PCR tests and found that such tests can suggest people are infected even after their bodies’ immune system has already fought off the coronavirus because these tests only provide a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ as to whether the virus material is in the body. This means such people would test positive even though the coronavirus in their bodies may be harmless and non-infectious”
The most reliable testing would be to see if the virus would actually grow and reproduce But that’s not being done. The PCR test helps to sell the pandemic- Which is why it’s used. Yes, there really is a big problem with testing- and it skews all the numbers

Posted by: R Rose | Sep 27 2020 12:45 utc | 107

@ Posted by: LXV | Sep 27 2020 8:39 utc | 92

It must be a leftist thing to vest so much trust into big government and international organizations doing their darndest to strip you of your human rights and liberties…

Some numbers (evidence) are better than none (no evidence). I don’t remember people complaining about official data from the First World countries until 2016, why begin to complain about them now?
Besides, it’s better than the right-wing approach of “I know that I know and I know that you don’t know”, which is anti-scientific par excellence.

Posted by: vk | Sep 27 2020 12:48 utc | 108

by: Michael Makridakis @ 60 T-cell immunity is useful iff the viron enters and infects a host cell.. in the first place.. most immunity based vaccinations depend on the virus destroyed cell fragments for recognition.
The object should not be to treat the infected systems of cells (via an engineered immune response) which express themselves as a sick person (i.e. patient) but instead the object should be to prevent the infection in the first place..
Infection is a process.. all corona virus follow the same general path to infection.. AFAICT..
Its the infection process (both the initial infection <=external viron finds its way into the human body ,and succeeds after entry to find, attach to and insert itself in a single cell) and after that initial infection, the infection is still the first need of a viron because after it replicates, and destroys the first cell it invaded, its progeny must then find new cells in the body to infect. Replicated virons are produced in the infected cell, if the next infection can be prevented, there is no need for a vaccine, Already ways to detect one single corona viron in a large room (the number of people in the crowd do not seem to be a problem) has emerged, and after detection; non invasive ways to destroy detected corona virons ability (muted infectivity) to infect a human cell are being discovered, So even if the viron successfully enters the body..it cannot infect a human cell. A successful detection and prevention method will help to stop all this good guy bad guy propaganda. None of you wanted to help with, or talk about, the stop the infection effort? I still don't know why?

Posted by: snake | Sep 27 2020 12:53 utc | 109

Richard Steven Hack says:
Whitney has to be a complete moron to ever contemplate the possibility
Whitney ended his fairly dystopian prognosis with a sanguine caveat. perhaps he has a dream, you know, kinda like Martin Luther King Jr. had?
***
i would rather describe a ‘complete moron’ as someone stupid enough to rob a bank and get caught. so, RSH, why don’t you take that little glock, stick it up your ass, and see how many rounds you can squeeze off before the lights go out.

Posted by: john | Sep 27 2020 12:56 utc | 110

The point you make regading over sencitivty of tests skewing the figures if true would be massively counter balensed by, falues to test, deliberately hidden outbrakes
People self-isolated, or not, failing to report their infection.
U.K. 2—3 thousand schools have now had covid,
then there’s this ——
https://mobile.twitter.com/toryfibs/status/1305942528768774144
T

Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 27 2020 13:00 utc | 111

After all of theae months of coverage from every angle. Af the 50,000 foot level it appears that communal societies fare better against Covid then say US or UK where the last 20 to 30 years has been about breaking down community values and make it all about the individual. In some ways that is what all of the disagreements about fighting Covid are about.

Posted by: Oz | Sep 27 2020 13:28 utc | 112

Its the infection process (both the initial infection <=external viron finds its way into the human body ,and succeeds after entry to find, attach to and insert itself in a single cell) __________________________________________________ I don't believe that is an accurate description of the infection process. The evidence suggests that in order for a person to become infected large numbers of virons must enter the human body. The number may be in the millions or even much larger still. A single viron would have no practical chance of infecting a person even though it is in theory possible. This is believed to be why the virus has little impact in places where everyone is dutifully wearing a mask. The mask does significantly reduce the number of virons escaping from an infected person and it does further reduce the number of virons that enter a non-infected person who is wearing a mask. The net affect is that there are not enough virons to cause infection or cause only mild infection. I heard one virologist state that mask wearing may be the best vaccine because over time people are building up immunity due to repeated low exposures without becoming symptomatic.

Posted by: jinn | Sep 27 2020 13:37 utc | 113

A good source of critical info on Sweden’s alleged ‘success’ using herd immunity is emeritus Professor Marcello Ferrada de Noli, an epidemiologist who was a researcher at Seeden’s elite Karolinska Institute. He was also a researcher at Harvard medical school for a period.
He is a Chilean exile who resided in Sweden for several decades after the Pinochet coup in Chile.
He is very critical of the Swedish strategy of herd immunity and has been fighting a fierce struggle against the Swedish medical establishment for the past year. He accuses Sweden’s chief epidemiologist Tegnell of fiddling the stats by comparing places with different population densities and drawing false conclusions on that basis. Sweden has one of the lowest population densities in the industrialised world: only Canada has a lower population density than Sweden.
De Noli’s Twitter feed can be found here.
https://twitter.com/ProfessorsBlogg?s=09

Posted by: Ftmntf | Sep 27 2020 13:39 utc | 114

See also De Noli’ s new YouTube channel.
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCPpUfs7OgpPs5TwSiMuMNmQ/about

Posted by: Ftmntf | Sep 27 2020 13:45 utc | 115

Posted by: vk | Sep 27 2020 12:48 utc | 108
We did in Germany. We are extremely sensitive to this issue as when the Nazis started to kill anybody they considered unfit to live they had all the files ready supported by IBM punch cards.

investigative journalist Edwin Black which details the business dealings of the American-based multinational corporation International Business Machines (IBM) and its German and other European subsidiaries with the government of Adolf Hitler during the 1930s and the years of World War II. In the book, published in 2001, Black outlined the way in which IBM’s technology helped facilitate Nazi genocide through generation and tabulation of punch cards based upon national census data.

So we did have a census boycott in 1987.
Historical reinterpretation and amnesia are the latest fashion so people nowadays insist on being counted, asking for an “Afro census” which is a US import as being of any color never had any legal effect in Germany since 1945 and between 1933 and 1945 people having to prove the “purity of the German race” had to revert to church books documenting religion.
There is a lot of sensitivity about “having to prove your immune status” for travel and forced vaccination. There is suspicion that harvested data from covid-19 tests will be collected in genetic databases which is another emotional no go.
The American Eugenics Society was renamed the Society for the Study of Social Biology in 1972.

As of 2014 the Society of Social Biology is also called the Society for Biodemography and Social Biology. The Society’s journal, Biodemography and Social Biology, addresses the biological, social, and cultural influences on human population makeup from interdisciplinary fields including psychology, anthropology, genetics, and criminal justice. The Society of Social Biology has distanced itself from the AES [American Eugenics Society].

Eugenics – as in “controlled evolution” – is called transhumanism nowadays or humanity+. RNA vaccination – forcing the immune system to read RNA CODE to achieve immunity is part of it as there is a theory that viruses are the drivers evolution.
Immune systems are not clearly understood. And yes, we share our immune system with apes.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 27 2020 13:54 utc | 116

Add to 116
This here is where science presently is – again

Secret summit: According to Bloomberg, top Russian geneticists held a “secret meeting” this summer with government health officials in Moscow to debate a bid by a scientist there, Denis Rebrikov, to create babies genetically modified with the gene-editing technology CRISPR.
The first such children were born in China last year as part of a project to make HIV-resistant humans. That undertaking was halted amid pointed criticism of its ethical failings and a criminal investigation.
Putin’s choice: The question now is whether Russia will grab the CRISPR baton where China dropped it. Dmitry Peskov, the spokesman for Russia’s leader, declined to give Bloomberg a position, saying gene editing is not “a presidential issue.”
However, Bloomberg reports that the Moscow gene-editing conclave was attended by pediatric endocrinologist Maria Vorontsova, who is Putin’s eldest daughter (although this has never publicly confirmed by the Kremlin).
Second-hand reports have Vorontsova saying she doesn’t think scientific progress can be slowed but that it should be controlled—for instance, by limiting production of CRISPR babies to “state” institutions. Health Minister Veronika Skvortsova told Bloomberg that “an ethics committee will deal with this very complicated issue.”
Forcing the issue: Exactly who should control the genetically modified future is in debate. Should it be scientists, IVF centers, or less-than-democratic governments like those of China and Russia?

The last paragraph gives it away: If Russia and China do it, we must do it, too.
and Putin warns genetically modified human could be worse than nuclear bomb

“This means that a man has the opportunity to get into the genetic code created by either nature, or as religious people would say, by the God. What kind of practical consequences may entail. This means that one can already imagine it. One may imagine that a man can create a man with some given characteristics, not only theoretically but also practically. He can be a genius mathematician, a brilliant musician or a soldier, a man who can fight without fear, compassion, regret or pain. As you understand, humanity can enter, and most likely it will in the near future, a very difficult and very responsible period of its existence. And what I have just described might be worse than a nuclear bomb. When we do something, whatever we do, I want to reiterate it again – we must never forget about the ethical foundations of our work.”

One thing is for sure – as with artificial intelligence the technological advantage goes to China.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 27 2020 14:23 utc | 117

Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 27 2020 13:00 utc | 111
The validity of tests (all tests) depends on the rarity of the disease.
Tests have a false positive and a false negative rate.
If there is hardly any disease the effects of false negatives are minute and of false positives are huge.
If there is a lot of disease false positives are a minor issue.
Therefore up to a few month into covid-19 tests where only done if there were clinical symptoms. False positives were not really an issue then.
But now millions of people without clinical symptoms are tested because of “risk”. False positives in this situation are a huge issue.
In Germany the positive rate (percentage of positives in tests) are below one percent since May. This is very much the false positive rate you would expect from testing, hospitals are mainly empty and hardly anyone dies “with or from covid”.
Question: If someone is obese and dies with a positive covid test, did he die from obesity or from covid? Is the infection from covid or another virus he did not get tested for? Would he have died from any infection?

Posted by: somebody | Sep 27 2020 14:44 utc | 118

@Chris C #34:

I wish B would get back on side. I don’t know why he trusts Governments and MSM on this, but he correctly calls them out on so many other issues. Even above he brings up the pre Iraq-war lying that went on – doesn’t he notice that it is largely same news organizations pumping Covid?

Don’t you notice that largely same news organizations are “pumping” the story that Earth is round? Surely, Earth must be flat!
Just because Western MSM lies so much, it does not mean that every single statement they make is a lie. Knee-jerk logical negation of whatever MSM reports is not critical thinking.

Posted by: S | Sep 27 2020 15:17 utc | 119

Several of you have hit on the truth here. PCR amplifies genetic material. The real time PCR they are using to test for covid is much simpler than the ones you would normally use to identify a sample of material. Normally you amplify the sample until you have enough to cut with restriction enzymes, and then run a gel electrophoresis to visualize and compare it to the target. With rtPCR the sample is placed into “solution” with only the primers present that correspond with the area chosen to be indicative of that particular virus. But the polemerase molecule doesnt care if the virus is whole and active or just broken fragments. As long as the sequence sought for is present it will replicate it. The sample is not visualized as I explained above, it has markers attached that simply fluoresce and can be seen when enough sample is amplified. And then there is the number of cycles they choose to use. Each cycle theoretically doubles the sample amount from the previous cycle and the danger is that if you use too many cycles you end up finding tiny viral loads of broken and “dead” viruses. Above 25 cycles is iffy, at 30 cycles you get mostly trash….at present in the US 37-42 cycles is most common. Ridiculous! On top of this it is know that viral fragments can last in the mucous for at least 12 weeks, very likely longer, after any real infection has passed. So when you hear about the “second” wave (with no deaths) in Europe and the ever mounting super “case” explosion in the US that started in the summer (also no deaths, except for the southern latitudinal seasonal ones) then you need to use some science to assimilate these new facts. Instead too many, for their own agenda, are stuck in March shivering at bogus death predictions from know charlatans! What we are seeing in this new “case” increase is not the spread of the virus but a documentation of heard immunity. The virus passed through and the had little or no symptoms. See, these “cases” are mostly not cases. A case in medical speak is someone who is sick enough to seek medical attention. These legions of asymptomatic test positives who just got tested to go back to school or work are not real “cases”. They focus on these bogus “cases” now because deaths fell off the cliff, and they need to keep everyone scared through the election, or through the brexit suffering or the weekly anti- neoliberal protests or through the Euroscepticism and rising nationalism…you name it! This virus is, for the elites, a kind of solution.

Posted by: biovizer | Sep 27 2020 15:40 utc | 120

@S #119
Yeah, it’s a scary thing to consider that such global coordination could exist. It must necessarily mean that there are global control structures in place that are higher than the governments of most nation states.
@Richard Steven Hack #69
Well Richard, it’s something isn’t it? If I’m right, then we are engaged, at this point anyway, in an information war. Every voice counts. B is an influencer, and his audience is more open than many others to alternative narratives about the nature of the world. I’m just hoping to at least explore the possibilities with people that something incredibly dangerous is happening right now. Maybe I won’t change any minds, probably I should do more, but I’m trying to help in one way that I am able.

Posted by: Chris C | Sep 27 2020 16:30 utc | 121

Posted by: Chris C | Sep 27 2020 1:17 utc | 52
“We are suggesting this is about a global authoritarian control grid being actively instituted which will leave the masses hopelessly enslaved. Our suggestion is that the severity of Covid is being significantly exaggerated in order to achieve this end. As such, there is one side which is fighting for the future of all of Humankind . . . If this is a ruse being used to implement a global system of social control, then the lock down proponents are leading people into a new global authoritarian control grid.”
This is typical of conspiracy theory nitwittery. Imagining that the ‘establishment’ or ‘deep state’ or who/whatever have almost superhuman powers of imagination, organisation, foresight and cohesion is a) nonsensical, and b) deeply defeatist.
Capitalists/deep staters etc. and their fellow travellers are just the same as everyone else – competitive, disorganised, confused and relatively ineffective. That is not to say that they do their best not to be any of these things, and undoubtedly there is some degree of co-operation between them, but no more effectively than any other disparate group.
‘b’, ‘AnalyticMinded | Sep 27 2020 4:03 utc | 66’ & ‘Debsisdead | Sep 27 2020 2:47 utc | 62’ are right on the nail here, while the covid-deniers and other conspiracy theorists are right where the ‘establishment/ whatever’ wants them – causing confusion, dissent and possibly unnecessary deaths.

Posted by: Jams O’Donnell | Sep 27 2020 16:40 utc | 122

About myth of PCR inefficiency:
Different standards lead to Sweden’s false positive COVID-19 results: Chinese biotech firm

In response to Sweden’s concerns over “false positive COVID-19 test kits,” the Chinese company in question, BGI Genomics, said on Wednesday that the “high positive rate” was due to the amount of virus inside asymptomatic patients, and different countries and regions define asymptomatic patients differently.
Observers said that as China prefers to use products with high sensibility to distinguish asymptomatic patients and avoid blind spots, low-sensitivity reagents used in some Western countries may cause more infections, as low virus carriers that cannot be detected with low-sensitivity reagents can be infectious.
[…]
“For asymptomatic infections… nucleic acid tests with high-sensitivity reagents would generate a positive test result,” it said.

So, there you have it. The truth about the PCR tests: the problem isn’t with the test itself, but with that little piece behind the test called the doctor/scientist/politician.
The case is as simple as it is clear: Sweden’s government (and Spain’s, and France’s…) decided they wanted lower numbers to calm down their peoples and create a narrative to prepare the masses to suddenly reopen their economies (petit-bourgeois lobby, which is strong in the Western European countries). They bought hundreds of thousands of PCR tests from China and it turned out the test is too good. As a result, the number of officially infected rose, not decreased. To regain control of the narrative, some Western European governments (Spain being the first one) blamed China and their famous low-quality products; they used a stereotype that was easily understandable to the Western European masses so they could save face and cater to small and medium businesses (specially the tourism industry, in Western Europe’s case).
Sweden’s case is even more ridiculous, as it turned out they don’t even have a protocol for diagnosis of COVID-19 (so much for the vaunted Swedish STEM industry…), and they apparently didn’t even know they should have one (or even what is one). The Chinese company that produced the test got them by the balls.

Posted by: vk | Sep 27 2020 16:51 utc | 123

There is no vaccine for stupid, but plenty would sign up for it anyway.
Hopefully you get in the correct line, stupid to the left, covidiots to the right.
Pssst, don’t tell ’em it’s the same shot.
You will all die, hopefully a peaceful death. Meanwhile live as fully as you can, with optimal health, love, empathy and compassion for yourselves and others would be a good start. Stop being fear-based irrational pussies and get some adventure back in your pathetic little “un-lived” life.
“Most people tranquilize themselves with the trivial” – On the guilt of unlived life-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cX-z-MyNrU&feature=emb_err_woyt

Posted by: CitizenX | Sep 27 2020 16:52 utc | 124

How is it that hundreds of commenters here whine about “not wearing a mask” kills other people?
-and are completely mute regarding US govt/militarism sanctions, war and economic policies murdering millions at home and abroad. I guess those murders are not “preventable” but your fucking mask “saves lives”. Obesity no problem. Hypocritical scum.

Posted by: CitizenX | Sep 27 2020 16:59 utc | 125

B, you really need to read this:
https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=239747
As posted by the first person in the thread, David Shinn.
You should realize that innate immunity to the virus is real. The proof is the Diamond Princess cruise ship, where everybody was exposed to the virus in a closed environment and only a minor fraction got sick.

Posted by: R.A. | Sep 27 2020 17:37 utc | 126

nice try and all but not sure why you bother. the only thing more contagious and less curable than COVID is stupidity. especially willful stupidity. being too moronic and/or cowardly to rebel against anything meaningful the covidiots pretend they’re wise truth tellers and The Smartest Person on the Internet ™. they think they’re taking “the right pill from morpheus” when really they’re just the douche bag who sold everyone else out so he could eat steak.
jackie chan got in trouble a few years back for saying “some people have too much freedom”…hard to disagree with him in the year 2020. i’m praying for a serious illness that only affects people in the 19-32 age range and is attracted to hair gel and pickup trucks.

Posted by: the pair | Sep 27 2020 17:50 utc | 127

Posted by: vk | Sep 27 2020 16:51 utc | 123
Fact is that Europe has no procedure to validate tests. They may be different depending on laboratory and manufacturer (laboratories use their own test kits).
Posted by: the pair | Sep 27 2020 17:50 utc | 127
This is the whole point: People “die from covid” within normal western life expectancy. At least in some western countries.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 27 2020 18:21 utc | 128

jesus, some of these people tell bald face lies about commentors and b not mentioning us war crimes. where do they come from, that they know absolutely noting about the blog?

Posted by: pretzelattack | Sep 27 2020 18:48 utc | 129

Thanks b for another fine analysis – I wish I was as capable.
As to ‘0h0h77-Gee what can the matter be’ , I amongst a very Few others btl there are constantly attack by their flying blue monkey trolls when I try and introduce some logic/rationality/citation or verification of credentials of the atl contribution.
It is hilarious.
They pissed me off completely with their mawkish crocodile tears over Vltchks death.
I know many of their bottom feeders come here because they complain about MoA! Which ironically is how I came across this article.
So I thank them.
To put OG in context based on MY experience and opinion – which has ranged from profound wonder that a anti On-G site existed, and a early unhealthy fatuation for their editors and contributors to discerning their true ‘colors’ and I am pissed off enough to rage.
They lost a founding editor, without any explanation. Adopted subtle censorship and changes to the comments system. The perma infestation of organised trolls.Their Admins/Mods writing articles without acknowledgement; It is now all but a phantom of its raison detre.
These colours :- rabid anti Craig Murray/ anti Assange/ anti MoA/ pro BrexShit /Luke warm Pro Trump/ no mention of integrity initiative …and Covid!
So my prognosis is they are daily more happy to reveal their hand as DS Red/Brown Fake Alt-News site – that does not even pretend to be paying attention to the daily On Guardian bollicks which is full on pro Starmer/ anti Trump / anti Corbyn etc DS agenda.
No doubt I will be ostracised by one of their minions who sees this.
However – I am pissed off and have decided to fight!

Posted by: DG | Sep 27 2020 19:02 utc | 130

Covidiots? If you have to use name-calling, you have lost the argument.

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 27 2020 19:36 utc | 131

I am sorry MoA, you are the Covidiot. You choice of the New York example is deceptive and misleading. Why do you choose just one location? In addition the NY case is one of the worst exmaples because the governor sent sick people into nursing homes (just as the italians did in northern Italy or the french in the Paris area). Was this meant to increase the number of deaths? why don’t you look at the national statistics of countries. The numbers are clear: most deaths are among people above 78-80, suffering from co-morbidities and the death rate (number of deaths per million) is miniscule.
To add to this, you pull information from the corrupt CDC, why not the WHO while you are at it? Both are playground of the Gates Foundation.
Last but not least: whatever the lethality of Stupid19, ask yourself: was it worth stopping the entire economy of most of the planet? What’s behind this? Have we stopped the planet in 2009 (during the Swine flu) or 2002 (during the avian flu)?

Posted by: Bongocero | Sep 27 2020 20:36 utc | 132

Somebody @ 118
Have just spotted your reply, and yes what you state is true re false negatives to an extent, but your clutching at straws if you think that, that explains what I see with my own eyes. We need to face the truth right now. The debate is over. When someone shouts timber you better jump ! No time to debate the concept of timber. But thanks.
As you know this has all been debated, regular people understandably get fed up going over the same old ground, for the sake of those who have had their head in the sand. It’s real ! Deal with it

Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 27 2020 20:48 utc | 133

@ vk ” About myth of PCR inefficiency:
So, there you have it. The truth about the PCR tests: the problem isn’t with the test itself, but with that little piece behind the test called the doctor/scientist/politician.”
There you have nothing. No one is mentioning “inefficiency” except for you. In order to change the narrative.
jinn @ 113
“I heard one virologist state that mask wearing may be the best vaccine because over time people are building up immunity due to repeated low exposures without becoming symptomatic.”
I read that study. What you failed to mention is that the virus spreads via the mask wearers. The mask wearing does not, in fact, stop the spread, as has been claimed. It appears to reduces the viral load enabling the mask wearers to spread the virus and create a herd immunity-
The cruise ship mentioned by another commenter bore that fact out as well. Masks worn. Less asymptomatic cases

Posted by: R Rose | Sep 27 2020 21:20 utc | 134

Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 27 2020 20:48 utc | 133
“what I see with my own eyes”
How many people with Covid-19 did you see? Did your friends see? Have you heard of from friends or aquaintances?
What I saw was social media panic. The panic is decreasing. The debate will take up speed when the panic stops.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 27 2020 21:32 utc | 135

Thanks b for starting it and letting us have the discussion. The lively comment thread proves the keen interest. It’s good to read the different views.
Let’s hear each other out and keep it civil. There aren’t many places left where intelligent and well-informed people make an effort to pour opposing views into mostly well-articulated arguments.
When talking about “cases” as the most important indicator, and the required reaction, the first step should be to review what a “case” is at all, and how it is measured. Biovizer @120 sums the situation up well. May I add that the inventor of the PCR method (not “test”) explicitly warned that the PCR is not suitable to test for virus infections. He’s got a Nobel Prize for it, so his opinion should count for something.

Posted by: Leser | Sep 27 2020 21:38 utc | 136

The US launched a trade war against China. A trade war is just like any other war, in that all wars are about economics, only in a trade war the shooting has not started yet. The US was losing the trade war, but as with any war defeat is not an option for America so long as weapons remain that have not been used. Because of this the US escalated with a biological attack on China. China defeated the attack, but the “collateral damage” was pandemic in the West. This resulted in massive economic losses in America, but America’s war on China continues… the empire doesn’t really have a choice, after all.
America is losing its war against China very badly now, but how to turn it around? Somehow America’s economy needs to be strengthened, but that requires American workers to go back to work, and consumers to resume consumption. For this to happen the public needs to be convinced that the disease is relatively harmless. That is why we now see more covid deniers than we ever saw Boeing fanbois when discussing the 737MAX.
With the western economies being force reopened, the dangers and fatalities will be downplayed and suppressed. The corporate mass media will do their part in the war effort by assisting in trying to give the appearance of a return to normalcy. This is necessary to win the war, and the covid fatalities will be treated like war dead in any other war that the perpetrator is losing: they will be hidden. They very likely already are.
Count on it.

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 27 2020 21:39 utc | 137

correction
Masks worn. MORE asymptomatic cases
No masks Less asymptomatic cases
You can find the study at the New England Journal of Medicine
N
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2026913
“In an outbreak on a closed Argentinian cruise ship, for example, where passengers were provided with surgical masks and staff with N95 masks, the rate of asymptomatic infection was 81% (as compared with 20% in earlier cruise ship outbreaks without universal masking).”

Posted by: R Rose | Sep 27 2020 21:39 utc | 138

Many thanks for this article. I’d cancelled my subscription to Off-Guardian some weeks ago in exasperation.

Posted by: Ruth | Sep 27 2020 21:43 utc | 139

A bit more from the Professor cited in my comment at 107
Posted by: R Rose | Sep 27 2020 12:45 utc | 107
Coronavirus: Tests ‘could be picking up dead virus’
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54000629
Prof Carl Heneghan, one of the study’s authors, said instead of giving a “yes/no” result based on whether any virus is detected, tests should have a cut-off point so that very small amounts of virus do not trigger a positive result.
He believes the detection of traces of old virus could partly explain why the number of cases is rising while hospital admissions remain stable.
The University of Oxford’s Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine reviewed the evidence from 25 studies where virus specimens from positive tests were put in a petri dish to see whether they would grow.
This method of “viral culturing” can indicate whether the positive test has picked up active virus which can reproduce and spread, or just dead virus fragments which won’t grow in the lab, or in a person.
False positive risk
But when you take a coronavirus test, you get a “yes” or “no” answer. There is no indication of how much virus was in the sample, or how likely it is to be an active infection.
A person shedding a large amount of active virus, and a person with leftover fragments from an infection that’s already been cleared, would receive the same – positive – test result.
But Prof Heneghan, the academic who spotted a quirk in how deaths were being recorded, which led Public Health England to reform its system, says evidence suggests coronavirus “infectivity appears to decline after about a week”.
He added that while it would not be possible to check every test to see whether there was active virus, the likelihood of false positive results could be reduced if scientists could work out where the cut-off point should be.
This could prevent people being given a positive result based on an old infection

Posted by: R Rose | Sep 27 2020 21:44 utc | 140

As you know this has all been debated, regular people understandably get fed up going over the same old ground, for the sake of those who have had their head in the sand. It’s real ! Deal with it
Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 27 2020 20:48 utc | 133
Absolute rubbish. Nothing was debated. Every thing was predetermined.
What I “saw with my own eyes” was propaganda posters posted up and down Prince Street in NYC by some “art project” when we were all supposed to be in “lockdown”.
What I “saw with my own eyes” was my near and local hospital (twice featured in RT btw MOA with a laughable picture of an ambulance parked in front of the entrace ..) was a lack of activity. Headlines screamed “overflowing hospitals” and stupid pics of land being prepared for burials, and while all that media spectacle was going on, nothing happening in the local hospital.
It is beyond belief that questioning why our entire way of life and our rights are being announced as “over” in a New Normal that was announced immediately after the Lockdown was introduced.
Where were these “debates”?
The International Corporate State is asserting that it has the right to suspend Human Rights and impose social dictats by fiat because of e.g. “200,00” dead in a nation of 300 Million plus! And jokers (or is properly collaborater?) like you announce those who object at this state of affairs as being unreasonable at best?
If this not-even-remotely-a-plague was in fact a deadly disease threatening humanity we would be saturated 24/7 with actual footage of “carnage” in every hospital. We have better footage of “carnage” in World War One!

Posted by: conspiracy-theorist | Sep 27 2020 21:55 utc | 141

Somebody @ 135
4 dead in my small village all good people I new. plus two local pubs different villages less than 4 miles from here, in both cases bunch of lads&lasses come back from Spain with the bug and spread it a round here, I also have people I know working in hospitals and care homes. I could go on.
Why are you people so fucking detached from the human suffering you are responsible for.
PS today I look at off Gardian, what a cesspit of deluded fools, Tory tools.

Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 27 2020 22:04 utc | 142

@144
Are you aware there are now somewhere between 2000 & 6000 reported outbreaks in U.K. schools since less than a month ago. Some county’s refuse to give the figures.
How can you be so detached from the suffering this contagious virus is creating.
The lockdown came to late and when it began to work the Tory’s relaxed it.
This virus could have been removed from the entire country in two months.

Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 27 2020 22:29 utc | 144

@144
How about the plague?

Posted by: Rickstrees@icloud.co | Sep 27 2020 22:37 utc | 145

Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 27 2020 22:29 utc | 145
Are these “outbreaks” symptomatic or asymptomatic ie only perceived by test?

Posted by: somebody | Sep 27 2020 22:37 utc | 146

@Mark2 #144:
How were those UK outbreaks detected? Which test? Any actually sick kids? If the numbers are shite, you’re only going to dig your hole deeper by trying to shame someone with bad data.

Posted by: Dr Wellington Yueh | Sep 27 2020 22:38 utc | 147

b’s closing remarks are chilling:

“the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.”

I’m surprised that there hasn’t been much discussion of the implications of this.
1) the disinfo from the astro-turfed libertarian mob is deliberate.
2) The Trump Administration (as well as other Western governments) made a wilful decision to allow the virus to gain a foot hold and then spread to the population as a whole. Trump’s wilful decision has the same sort of calculus as Obama’s wilful decision to allow ISIS to rise, and Bush’s wilful decision to invade Iraq.
COV-SARS-2 is being used to by our authoritarian Western governments to advance policy goals:

  • Blame China;
  • Bailout Banks and favored corporations;
  • Provide a boondoggle to Big Pharma;
  • Kill older people (who are costly) and minorities (who are unwanted);

<> <> <> <> <> <> <>
We know that the libertarian mob is astro-turfed because ordinary libertarians don’t complain so ferociously about other things as much as the astro-turfed mob complains about masks and lock-downs. And the mob uses all sorts of trickery in their claims. Examples of such trickery are:

  • ignoring that masks and lock-downs have slowed the virus and saved lives – that success is used to paint the virus as a public health nothing-burger:
  • ignoring the stark difference in outcomes between governments that really fought the virus and governments that didn’t.

And we see parallel efforts by Trump, BoJo, Macron, etc. (and their sycophantic media) to advance the same policy agenda that the astro-turfed libertarian mob is so vocal about.
!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 27 2020 22:38 utc | 148

Somebody
They died, go figure
So you and your nasty gang of coward trolls expect me to answer your questions but don’t answer mine. Right !

Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 27 2020 22:44 utc | 149

add to 150
Just had a look: Daily new cases – ie tested cases up in Britain, daily deaths close to nil since July.
Same as in Germany.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 27 2020 22:45 utc | 150

@148
Those figures come from a very good twitter account —- Tory fibs
I recommend it. Thanks

Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 27 2020 22:58 utc | 151

@152:
I’m not interested in who. I’m asking about how and what.

How were those UK outbreaks detected? Which test? Any actually sick kids?

Posted by: Dr Wellington Yueh | Sep 27 2020 23:00 utc | 152

add to 151
Just had a look at Spanish figures. There deaths do rise. I have a sinking feeling though that this is NOT the fault of a virus.
Spain seems to be doing Europe’s testing of medication/vaccine. They are cash strapped.
See here:
Spain European leader in clinical trials of possible covid-19 treatments
plus
EU financial support for Spain re covid-19

In particular, the aid will cover a significant share of the investment costs necessary for the development and testing (up to first deployment prior to mass production) of coronavirus relevant innovative products and treatments, as well as the investment costs for production of coronavirus relevant innovative products.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 27 2020 23:02 utc | 153

You guys really don’t like to be proved wrong and shown up as the fools you are do you. Go back to off -Gard.
A fake left site. Tory freandly rebels, destabalisation project.
Game over.

Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 27 2020 23:17 utc | 154

Some guy in the UK saying its a second wave carnage scenario here in the UK, everyone, especially the old hiding away, must be in a different UK to me then.

Posted by: PETER WAINE | Sep 28 2020 0:01 utc | 155

Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 27 2020 9:17 utc | 96 ” OffGardian view has no logic, pure blame shifting, anti mask, anti social distancing, anti lockdown from the very start”
No lockdown, no compulsory masking and no enforcement of social distancing is the sweden posture. Sweden is very successfull and there is no better proof than succeed.
Nice site off-guardian.

Posted by: Roberto | Sep 28 2020 0:57 utc | 156

The following peer-reviewed paper, published in Nature, talks about “SARS-CoV-2-specific T cell immunity in cases of COVID-19 and SARS, and uninfected controls”.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2550-z_reference.pdf
The evidence is accumulating that many people already have natural immunity to the SARS-C0V-2 virus, even though they have no anti-bodies to the virus in their blood. It has been estimated that the amount of people in a given population with immunity to the virus is about 5X of those who show anti-bodies in serological testing. This means that if you have a population where 20 percent show presence of snti-bodies (NYC, for example), it is highly likely that population has achieved herd immunity to the virus.

Posted by: R.A. | Sep 28 2020 1:07 utc | 157

I think the clue to b.’s position on covid 19 is in the title of this up to less than his normal standard with easy to see mistakes – is the use of the imperial “we”. I can’t remember (doesn’t mean a whole lot with may aging memory) but I don’t remember him using it. Also he doesn’t usually call people names. It is often easy to tell that English is a 2nd language with him but wasn’t the case in this article.

Posted by: gepay | Sep 28 2020 1:12 utc | 158

In the title of this one finds the imperial “we”. I don’t remember b. using this before. Also in most every blog one can tell b. isn’t a native English speaker – not that I have any trouble understanding him. In this not up to his standard whatever he even calls people names. makes me wonder.

Posted by: gepay | Sep 28 2020 2:20 utc | 159

Those who doubt b’s authorship or his use of language could take instruction on the “imperial we” – it’s actually the “editorial we”, and the use of it in this headline is exaggerated very slightly to draw from an English literary style. It’s an excellent sardonic style from b, and greatly appreciated by those of us who come for his wit and intelligence rather than to grind an axe.
I happened to stop by and noticed the critiques of b from people who don’t understand writing as well as he does. Thought I’d try to balance the discussion a little.

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 28 2020 3:51 utc | 160

@122

This is typical of conspiracy theory nitwittery.

The term, Conspiracy Theory should have the same status as Godwin’s Law.

Posted by: anon | Sep 28 2020 5:58 utc | 161

I thought I would treat the deniers to a reasonably cogent article by an amerikan journo currently in Aotearoa on why Aotearoa’s elimination strategy is not only more successful than Sweden’s herd immunity nonsense it also provides citizens with considerably more freedom.
This article was published back in August but its truths still apply.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Sep 28 2020 8:49 utc | 162

Posted by: Debsisdead | Sep 28 2020 8:49 utc | 167
You can do that on an island like New Zealand where you control all the ports and where winter season is 6 months after virus outbreak in China and Europe. When WHO sounded the alarm it was too late for Sweden to even consider such a strategy.
Sweden has up to one more year of life expectancy compared to Northern Europe, so simply more elderly people that could get killed by the disease. They did well compared to the Netherlands and Britain.
There is some suspicion that a large part of covid-19 deaths were caused by large doses of Hydrochloroquin used in trials suggested by the sudden rise and fall of deaths in some countries at the beginning of the covid-19 scare. It would explain why some European countries have excess deaths and others don’t.
Posted by: Glagaire | Sep 28 2020 9:22 utc | 168
Yes.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 28 2020 9:57 utc | 163

Because covid19 is complex it is easy for different people to come to very different conclusions, as with the three blind men and the elephant. It is reasonable to doubt the lethality of the virus since it varies wildly. It is reasonable to doubt infectiousness since it also varies wildly. Our increasing groupthink tendency means a greater tendency to treat other points of view as entirely wrong and a stronger intolerance towards those people. Off-Guardian is anti-neoliberal and anti-interventionist. They will choose Corbyn’s side rather than go up against him. They distrust power. I don’t dismiss them.
It is easy to dismiss conspiracy thinking but all that is is is thinking in areas where you distrust opaque power. It’s a hard area to work in and most people make a mess of it. People need to manage their distrust. It can guide your attention but should only have limited weight in guiding your judgement. Some people are attracted to the subject of conspiracies because of character sure, but conspiracy thinking is about the subject more than about the people doing the thinking. This is also a conspiracy thinking site.

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Sep 28 2020 10:07 utc | 164

Glagaire @ 168
thank you for that.

Posted by: john | Sep 28 2020 10:55 utc | 165

Aside from using an unreliable PCR test,
why aren’t health officials cycling at a lower rate
to eliminate people who are actually healthy
but have a tiny inactive amount of virus or
other common coronaviruses in them?
Did you know that cases of regular cold or flu are considered COVID-19?

Posted by: Jimmy | Sep 28 2020 14:25 utc | 166

So here are some questions that should be asked:
1. At what rate of cycling using the PCR test is your department of health cycling at? 37-40 is sure to be positive but not for an active infection.
2. Are you aware that positive antibody test results are quite often considered a case? (meaning an individual had CV-19 at some point, they’ve developed antibodies to it and are now healthy.)
3. How many of these cases are actually an active infection and are symptomatic and how many are not?
4. Why are asymptomatic individuals aka healthy people, who have tested positive considered a case, when the probability of infecting another person is very rare according to the WHO?
5. Why are probable and presumed cases, individuals who were never actually tested, in most cases, not listed to the media as such?
6. How many cases are from contact tracking and tracing? Again probable and presumed cases. One case plus possibly fifteen contacts equal sixteen cases without testing!
7. Did you know that cases of regular cold or flu are considered COVID-19?

Posted by: Jimmy | Sep 28 2020 14:26 utc | 167

How can your government and government health authorities mandate any such lock-downs, quarantines, mandatory mask-wearing, anti-social distancing, forced vaccination, police state crackdowns and various totalitarian restrictions based on mainly bogus cases and not deaths?
Let alone whether this virus is the cause of infection in the first place!
It is up to us to call out this so-called pandemic and virus for what it is – a HOAX. Use this information to inform them that we are not buying their ridiculous propaganda, ever-changing narrative, statistics/numbers game, and continuous erosion of our rights and freedoms any longer.

Posted by: Jimmy | Sep 28 2020 14:53 utc | 168

It ist really disheartening to see the host of this site engaging in the exact same smear tactics against heretic readers that he so frequently points out and criticizes in the MSM.

Posted by: Protagonist | Sep 28 2020 15:51 utc | 169

As I understand it, Debsisdead@167, New Zealand still does have the virus but that may be a good thing as with the suppositions from Dr. Gandhi that I remember from some weeks back, at the Thursday night forums by the UCSF medical teams, the message being presented there was that the virus seems to be cumulative. That is, that heavier doses produce worse illness. And at that point in San Francisco studies, deaths were diminishing. (Sorry, I haven’t viewed any recent videos.) Coupling that with the then expressed hope that small amounts of virus trigger T cells to recognize and fight an onset of symptoms, I am remembering that Dr.Gandhi said herd immunity is a definite possibility. So, kiwis may be still encountering asymptomatic cases and developing resistance that way. It would be better than remaining completely vulnerable to the disease if it accidentally re-enters the country.
There are indeed some crazy theories, as b has pointed out, and the sad thing at the onset was that most places with dense populations were seeing very scary results and were unprepared. A previous forum, a doctor mentioned that his hospital had no masks when very ill people were coming in. But they did have face shields, so while they waited for the masks, they used those– and had good results. That was a forum which discussed in detail the differences between droplets and aerosols, not arguing against either, but demonstrating air currents and the like. That’s the key, I think, and I liked very much the following post:
“After all of these months of coverage from every angle. At the 50,000 foot level it appears that communal societies fare better against Covid then say US or UK where the last 20 to 30 years has been about breaking down community values and make it all about the individual. In some ways that is what all of the disagreements about fighting Covid are about.
Posted by: Oz | Sep 27 2020 13:28 utc | 112”
I would, as psychohistorian @ 80 points out, strongly assert that politics has played a part in confusing fearmongering with plain facts. Getting the right information calmly presented has been difficult for all of us idiots in the US, persuaded as we now are that our government is misleading us on so many levels, and to a hammer everything,even a virus, is a nail. Yet, there is still community even here, and especially here on MoA. Thanks to b for making this thread readable.

Posted by: juliania | Sep 28 2020 16:27 utc | 170

Here is a link to Dr. Gandhi’s article I mention @ 177. Do read as far as her final emphatic statement (and scroll through the yellow band at the top in order to read the article.)
https://www.ucsf.edu/magazine/covid-masking

Posted by: juliania | Sep 28 2020 16:59 utc | 171

So here are some questions that should be asked:
1. At what rate of cycling using the PCR test is your department of health cycling at? 37-40 is sure to be positive but not for an active infection.
If there is virus RNA in the gunk taken from your nose/mouth than you must have been infected with SARS-CoV-2. There is no other way the RNA could have gotten there. But you might no longer be infectious. A antibody test could confirm that.
Tests (usually 90 or more in each run) will cycle 40 times or so. The machine then gives the Cycle Threshold (CT) value for each single test. In a typical positive case RNA will be detected around a CT of 25. Lab doctors look over the results. Typically any test that has a CT value of over 35 will get retested.
2. Are you aware that positive antibody test results are quite often considered a case? (meaning an individual had CV-19 at some point, they’ve developed antibodies to it and are now healthy.)
Someone with antibodies should could as a Covod-19 case but not as an active Covid-19 case.
3. How many of these cases are actually an active infection and are symptomatic and how many are not?
Currently anyone with anti-bodies can be seen no longer infectious. They might still have some symptoms.
4. Why are asymptomatic individuals aka healthy people, who have tested positive considered a case, when the probability of infecting another person is very rare according to the WHO?
I do not know what WHO claim you refer to. Someone who tests PCR positive and has not (yet) developed symptoms is very likely to be infectious and should be quarantined.
5. Why are probable and presumed cases, individuals who were never actually tested, in most cases, not listed to the media as such?
The presumed/probable but never tested cases only happened when we did not have enough tests. We are now in a phase where pretty much everyone who has some kind of symptoms gets tested.
6. How many cases are from contact tracking and tracing? Again probable and presumed cases. One case plus possibly fifteen contacts equal sixteen cases without testing!
No. That is not the case at all. Only people who tested positive are cases. Only those initiate contact tracing. But the 15 get also told to quarantine because they might infect others before they develop symptoms.
7. Did you know that cases of regular cold or flu are considered COVID-19?
That’s bullshit.

Posted by: b | Sep 28 2020 17:10 utc | 172

Posted by: juliania | Sep 28 2020 16:59 utc | 178
It has been my impression since last Spring that how much virus you have been tagged with matters. But I’ve not seen much on the subject beyond that observation. I have theorized that the poor replication of the virus has something to do with it, the “viability” of the virus depends on it’s compatibility with the infectee, and it may need quite a few hits to get a solid infection going. One of the arguments for nasal lavage as a treatment is that it washes out the virions and reduces the viral load.
The situation is then that if you are industrious in keeping down your exposure, amd removing what you do have, you improve your chances of a sub-critical infection. It’s not just a matter of one virion landing on your eyelid.
Which at the moment is my working hypothesis on that.

Posted by: Bemildred | Sep 28 2020 17:12 utc | 173

@somebody add to 150
Just had a look: Daily new cases – ie tested cases up in Britain, daily deaths close to nil since July.
Same as in Germany.

Britain (numbers are all 7 day averages):
The current exponential rise started around September 1 with then 1300 cases per day. Yesterday there were 5.800 cases per day.
On September 16 Britain had 10 Cocid-19 related deaths per day. Then those started to rise. Today it has 30, i.e. three times as many.
Your claim of “daily deaths close to nil since July” is false. The deaths are definitely rising in Britain.
Deaths do follow case numbers with a three to four week delay. It has been so in every country. The peak of deaths of people who get infected today will be around 25 days from now.

Posted by: b | Sep 28 2020 17:28 utc | 174

RE: jinn @ 113; R.Rose @138; julianna @178:
More links here: https://zdoggmd.com/monica-gandhi/
on UCSF physician Monica Gandhi’s hypothesis that mask wearing facilitates immunity development by limiting the viral innoculum load to the wearer, to a low “vaccinating” quantity that the person’s immune system can handle and have the opportunity to develop protective responses against the n-COv virus.

Posted by: gm | Sep 28 2020 17:32 utc | 175

Thanks, Bemildred @ 180, the complicating factor is that much ‘shedding’ of the virus apparently occurs in asymptomatic people during a few early days of having the virus, and in crowded places those aerosol hopping viruses can consolidate if the air is contained in dead spots in a room for instance with folk eating or even singing, so that one person (even if they themselves don’t get ill) could infect many with enough concentration of dose that those persons could become seriously ill if they haven’t already encountered the virus in small doses to (theoretically) have a (perhaps temporary) immunity therefrom. In other words, those cruise ship passengers that didn’t get sick may have encountered that ‘eyelid’ virion earlier in the cruise or strolling around Italy or wherever.
Complicated, it is.

Posted by: juliania | Sep 28 2020 17:41 utc | 176

@somebody
Fact is that Europe has no procedure to validate tests. They may be different depending on laboratory and manufacturer (laboratories use their own test kits).
That claim is utter bullshit.
Tests are validated and get certified. They are not allowed to be sold if they are not. All professional laboratory technicians and all laboratories also get tested and certified.
Not every labs uses the same test equipment. There are several PCR mass test systems available and each has slightly different parameters that can be tuned. Some labs will have system A, others system B, others will have both systems. They get calibrated so that they will give (about) the same results.

Posted by: b | Sep 28 2020 17:51 utc | 177

b ‘I do not know what WHO claim you refer to. Someone who tests PCR positive and has not (yet) developed symptoms is very likely to be infectious and should be quarantined. ”
That actually incorrect. Someone who tests positive may be totally and completely and probably more likely non infections and should not be considered a “case” but merely a positive test result
I refer again to the quoted material in comment 107
https://www.hospimedica.com/covid-19/articles/294784371/oversensitive-covid-19-tests-detecting-dead-coronavirus-cells-driving-false-positives-and-reinfections.html
“A study by the Oxford University’s Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine (Oxford, England) suggests that the current COVID-19 diagnostic tests could be too sensitive and may be detecting dead coronavirus cells, leading to overestimated infections.
According to the researchers, the tests used to diagnose COVID-19 are so sensitive that they may be indicating people are infected with SARS-CoV-2 even when they had the virus 70 days ago.
Prof Carl Heneghan, director of the Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine, believes that eight days after contracting COVID-19, the chances of an infected person passing on the virus to others become zero if there are no symptoms. However, fragments of the coronavirus can still remain in the body for several weeks afterwards.
Polymerase chain reaction (PCR) tests currently used to detect SARS-CoV-2 have technical limitations as they cannot distinguish whether the virus in the patient is alive or dead. The researchers analyzed 25 studies on PCR tests and found that such tests can suggest people are infected even after their bodies’ immune system has already fought off the coronavirus because these tests only provide a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ as to whether the virus material is in the body. This means such people would test positive even though the coronavirus in their bodies may be harmless and non-infectious”
The most reliable testing would be to see if the virus would actually grow and reproduce But that’s not being done. The PCR test helps to sell the pandemic- Which is why it’s used. Yes, there really is a big problem with testing- and it skews all the numbers

The Professor is a much better source for real, factual, information then the somewhat irrational presentation you insist on giving

Posted by: R Rose | Sep 28 2020 18:45 utc | 178

RE: Posted by: b | Sep 28 2020 17:28 utc | 174, 177.
I think you are mistaken regarding implications of PCR positive testing results and current covid death rates (in UK at least).
PCR false-positive rate is ~1%, according UK Health Minister Matt Hancock https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhqQd1frpDs (~6:20 min in).
Worldometer case, testing and death rate statistics for Britain https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
report total cumulative ncov-2 tests (overwhelmingly of PCR type) done in UK as 24,016,711 (total UK pop: ~68 million), thus the cumulative # of *false* positive PCR results in UK would have been ~240,000 test results, with most of the *positive* test volume (439K cases [includes both true positives and false positives] ) ramping up in more recent periods as pcr testing systems/capacities have become more broadly available/utilized. Assuming the great majority of the 439K UK covid “cases” counted by Worldometer received pcr tests, that would mean that >50% of the UK cases were/are false positives.
In such a situation where the pcr testing rate in the population is high in comparison to the rate of new Covid infections, relying on broad widespread pcr testing (even with only a 1% false positive rate) as the “gold standard” measure of real-time infection in a country will significantly overestimate the true level of infections.
More details here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSsTCjbNPF0
Posted by: gm |

Posted by: gm | Sep 28 2020 19:13 utc | 179

@R.Rose
That actually incorrect. Someone who tests positive may be totally and completely and probably more likely non infections and should not be considered a “case” but merely a positive test result
How can you determinate that someone who test borderline positive is NOT infectious?
(Theoretically one can collect more gunk from that person and try to grow the virus from it. That takes three to five lab days and involves a lot of lab-technicians manual labor. There are no machines for it so forget about mass usage.)
Practically a doctor should ask a person who tests positive if they previously had typical symptoms. We can then count the days from their symptoms to the test. If that number is below 8 they are probably still infectious. If it is greater we can ask them to take an antibody test. If that is positive that person is likely outside of the infectious window and does not need to quarantine.
But if symptoms were very recent or if there were no symptoms at all that person with a positive PCR may well be within the infectious window and should therefore be quarantined (10 days or retest after five days.)
What are you actually saying?
Should no one quarantine who tests PCR positive? How then will you stop the infectious disease from running completely out of control? You can’t.
BTW what that professor says is boilerplate knowledge and has been such since February/March. Nothing new in it and it does not change the situation at all.
(It is by the way not the first time that the Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine is playing to the press by emphasizing side issues that were already discussed and are common knowledge within the relevant circles.)
Also the biggest problems with PCR tests is that the actual sampling from the patient can be faulty. To use that nasal probe is quite difficult on some patients and sometimes the amount of gunk taken is too small or from the wrong place of the throat. A lot of borderline (high CT threshold positive) tests result from that. Retesting is then necessary.

Posted by: b | Sep 28 2020 19:21 utc | 180

b ‘How can you determinate that someone who test borderline positive is NOT infectious?”
There is no “borderline infectious” The PCR provides a yes or no and nothing else-
How to determine has been explained in the twice posted information
“The most reliable testing would be to see if the virus would actually grow and reproduce”
b-“what that professor says is boilerplate knowledge and has been such since February/March”
Yes, it is boilerplate knowledge and has been known for months and yet persons such as yourself are touting a threat where it’s entirely possible one does not exist
Actually b it does change nearly everything. To quote an Israeli doctor..
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/286997
” Many experts agree that anything higher than 30 amplification cycles will result in inactive, dead, or clinically insignificant amounts of the virus being detected, therefore causing the test to show as positive.
Health Communication Lecturer at IDC Herzliya International School Dr. Yaffa Shir Raz wrote: “So what does over 37 rounds mean?
“The inconceivable consequences of this finding are not only on the number of living ‘positives’ who will surely become negative if they are cultured – but also on the number of deaths classified as coronavirus only because of a positive asymptomatic test. Who knows how many rounds were done there?
“In other words – it means the collapse of the chicken legs on which the entire card tower of the plague in Israel stands,” Shir Raz wrote.
Not just the collapse of the chicken legs which hold up the “plague” in Israel. But globally. The PCR test as conducted gave the globe a “pandemic” that didn’t exist.
You’ve invested to personally in this “pandemic” which has come to exist based entirely on flawed testing-

Posted by: R Rose | Sep 28 2020 19:30 utc | 181

@gm
PCR false-positive rate is ~1%, according UK Health Minister Matt Hancock
Well, Hancock has claimed a lot of nonsense.
The technical false positive rate of PCR tests is practically nil. The machine does not find virus RNA where there is none. There may still be lab errors, mixed up samples etc. So there may still be false results reported to the field. But from a technical standpoint the machine will not make errors. It will not be triggered by other viruses or by a completely virus free sample.
(Standard lab protocol in Germany: Each run of the PCR machine with 60, 90 or 120 individual tests per run also includes several control samples. Some of these controls contain precisely measured amounts of virus RNA pieces. These allow one to detect calibration problems. Other controls are neutral, i.e. have guaranteed zero virus RNA. Should any of the controls show an unexpected result the test run must be repeated.)

Posted by: b | Sep 28 2020 19:46 utc | 182

i think a PCR test combined with asking ‘have you been ill’ works pretty well.
It does rely on the assumption that someone who has an asymptomatic (not presymptomatic)infection would rarely be shedding long term.
People who have been ill with Covid will be shedding long term but who cares. You know where they are in the evolution of the disease. Unless someone wants to conclude that would be a reinfection, which would be less than smart.

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Sep 28 2020 19:52 utc | 183

In reply to b at 182
We’re operating from completely different, even opposing understanding of how the RT-PCR test works. Would you mind providing a source for the information you provide in the comment?

Posted by: Curmudgeon | Sep 28 2020 20:50 utc | 184

182
Actually, b. this is not true according to the guy who invented the test.

Theoretisch sei es zwar richtig, dass der Test gegen das alte SARS-Coronavirus reagieren würde, wie zum Beispiel Wolfgang Wodarg in seinem Video behauptete. Allerdings sei das Virus seit 16 Jahren nicht mehr beim Menschen aufgetreten. Auch bei einigen Fledermaus-Coronaviren würde er theoretisch reagieren. Praktisch sei das jedoch irrelevant, weil diese nicht beim Menschen auftreten: „Wir testen mit diesem Test nur das neue Coronavirus beim Menschen.“
Weiter sagt Drosten, es sei im Rahmen der PCR-Testentwicklung eine Validierungsstudie mit einer großen Zahl echter Patientenproben durchgeführt worden, mit bekannt positiven Nachweisen anderer Coronaviren und auch aller anderen Erkältungsviren. „Und nicht ein einziges Mal hat es da eine falsch positive Reaktion gegeben. Also dieser Test reagiert gegen kein anderes Coronavirus des Menschen und gegen kein anderes Erkältungsvirus des Menschen.“

Translation: In theory the test can prove positive with the old sars-cov-1 virus or bat corona virus, but this test would be used only with humans and the old sars-cov-1 virus has disappeared. The test was validated with a large number (I looked it up – 256) of swabs from real patients with different known corona or cold viruses and the test did not react.
So, are we sure the 256 swabs cover all presently circulating corona viruses? What does the fact that we are immune to at least 85 percent of positive tests mean?
Does our immune system remember the virus from previous contact and maybe the test does that too?
Next testing problem as acknowledged by experts:

Das einzige, was hier maßgeblich ist, ist der PCR-Nachweis. Der kann aber nach der ersten Symptomwoche bei Patienten schwanken: mal positiv, mal negativ, während die Lunge immer noch voller Virus ist, und zwar unabhängig von den Symptomen.

Translation: After the first week of symptoms the test can vary from positive to negative to positive whilst the lung is still full of virus independent of symptoms.
Another expert on the same problem:

Virale RNA kann oft lange nachdem das infektiöse Virus verschwunden ist noch nachgewiesen werden.

Translation: Viral RNA can be found long after the infecting virus has disappeared.
Personally, I am with the president of Tanzania who finished his studies in Britain with a master in chemistry.
RNA molecules are part of nature, not unique to viruses. The tests are for 1, 2 or three sequences not for the whole virus with more than 30000 base pairs. So some plant RNA in your throat may be enough for a positive test.
A “diagnostic” test that proves positive when people have no symptoms cannot be used for diagnosis. All it can be used for is to maintain that you “may” be infectious but – see above – you may also be infectious if the test is negative. Or not.
The tests are useless fearmongering.
Of course, if you have symptoms, the test may be used to decide if and which virus caused the symptoms. However, this is useless too, as the treatment that has proved to be effective is the treatment of an immune reaction, which might be caused by anything – the reaction is not specific to the virus. People are treated with blood thinner and corticosteroides.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 28 2020 21:02 utc | 185

Here is a key point from biovizer | Sep 27 2020 15:40 utc | 120

With rtPCR the sample is placed into “solution” with only the primers present that correspond with the area chosen to be indicative of that particular virus. But the polemerase molecule doesnt care if the virus is whole and active or just broken fragments. As long as the sequence sought for is present it will replicate it. The sample is not visualized as I explained above, it has markers attached that simply fluoresce and can be seen when enough sample is amplified.

Also the terms ‘Reverse Transcription’ and ‘Real Time’ may be confused. RT refers to Reverse Transcription in my usage while others may vary. The test using fluorescent markers is Real Time while other primers without the fluorescent markers are used for downstream measurements, meaning the test is performed first, then the analysis is made. In any case SARS is an RNA virus meaning Reverse Transcription is necessary since the PCR measures DNA not RNA.

Posted by: Curmudgeon | Sep 28 2020 21:17 utc | 186

In reply to somebody | Sep 28 2020 21:02 utc | 185
My understanding of German is small, but I thought the doctor said the test primers detected a broad spectrum of corona viruses.

Posted by: Curmudgeon | Sep 28 2020 21:21 utc | 187

Posted by: Curmudgeon | Sep 28 2020 21:21 utc | 187
“Bat corona viruses” which he is sure do not occur in humans :-))
The guy who explains this is the one who developed one of the first tests used in Germany and beyond.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 28 2020 21:27 utc | 188

somebody | Sep 28 2020 21:27 utc | 188
Thanks for clarifying.

Posted by: Curmudgeon | Sep 28 2020 21:33 utc | 189

Andread #10

I am not interested in rebuttals of garbage. I am interested in genuine infomation from sources who have worked and done their job as physicians. Political bloggers are no genuine source I consider worth reading when it comes to Covid-19, including, sorry, B. who demonstrates that otherwise decent people tick off when stricken with fear.
So far I have not found one single member of the self-appointed “lockdown everything” & “wear masks” Sturmtruppen who could answer to the insights offeder by this swedish physician.
Sweden has left Covid-19 behind

Well said and I have just received a sound rebuttal of those that advocate the PCR test as being helpful or a definitive indicator of anything from Dr. Mancol Kendrick.. I suggest reading the entire post carefully to appreciate the situation.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 28 2020 22:26 utc | 190

uncle tungsten
That guy Kendrick is talking out the side of his neck. He’s using an estimate to provide evidence of false positives without showing any basis for the estimate. The estimate is based presumably on a test that he claims provides 90% false positives. Otherwise, where does the estimate come from?

Posted by: Curmudgeon | Sep 28 2020 22:37 utc | 191

Posted by: Curmudgeon | Sep 28 2020 22:37 utc | 191
The false positives depend on the prevalence of the disease. If there is no disease but a 99,9 percent reliable positive test and you test one million people you will have 100 000 false positives.
Reliability of tests ranges from 90 to 100 percent according to a German certification process testing laboratories, but the genes with 100 percent recognition are not unique to Sars (in my opinion none are). Presumably testing for more than one gene improves reliability but it is doubtful laboratories make the effort with mass testing. There is no standardized process.
We have a pandemic of unregulated tests.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 29 2020 6:42 utc | 192

re Posted by: Glagaire | Sep 28 2020 9:22 utc | 168
&
Posted by: somebody | Sep 28 2020 9:57 utc | 163
I haven’t been back here in this thread for a while – RL has a habit of getting in the way of reading, then responding to specious blatherings, but now I have seen these childish kneejerk reactions, reactions which cause me to conclude that either you didn’t read this article or you lacked the wit to comprehend it, much less understand how it is Aotearoa ( a nation of considerably more than one island) dealt with the sars2 coronavirus.
All that blocking entry (remembering that Aotearoa has more points of entry per head of population than the island england squats on has, or that Sweden has) plus lockdown did, was to give kiwis the time and space to put a viable, eventually efficient, track & trace system in place.
The summer/winter stuff is specious nonsense when one examines how the rate of infection exploded in Sweden & England during the summer months after england in particular ceased many of their lockdown protocols.
Flu season is a furphy in other words.
We got through our winter in Aotearoa because despite a few leaks from the quarantine system by returnees who had picked up selfishness in their travels, track and trace worked, pools of infection were identified and isolated from the rest of the citizenry with a holistic, family based methodology which didn’t leave citizens isolated from their whanau.
Because the approach was considerate and not draconian, most citizens got onboard and accepted an intrusion that many would normally not tolerate. They saw that the program was focussed on the greater good, compulsion or prosecution wasn’t instituted even when some have us believed it should have been e.g. the godbotherer who put gathering tithes ahead of his own congregation’s well-being.
Keeping the population working towards the same goal is a doddle if a government chooses to be accomodating rather than oppressive.
Sweden could easily have done the same thing as Aotearoa. As you can see here about 80% of sweden’s population are people indigenous to Sweden.
This table here tells us that only 8% of kiwis are indigenous, 70% are euro (altho that is misleading it is far from an homogenous ‘euro’ population), and about 20% of us are non-euro, non-indigenous kiwis.
That is a far more ethnically, culturally and religiously diverse population than Sweden or England, yet we managed to work together for a common good which since the end of the initial 6 week lockdown, has worked with most of us pointing in the same direction and has returned the nation to an economic success and individual freedoms which far surpass Sweden’s covid-19 lifestyle.
Not because we are in any way ‘better’ than other nations, but because there was a trifle more trust in officials (who most citizens of whatever ethnicity enjoy 2 degrees of separation from), than that within most states.
This combined with less egoistic timewasters who couldn’t stop whining about inconveniences they personally had to suffer rather than considering the common good was what most enabled success.
This “me me me” tosh is a cultural phenomenon most visible in communities which refuse to look at issues outside of the ‘me, me, me’ whine which sensible humans encourage their children to forgo at about 2 years of age.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Sep 29 2020 8:00 utc | 193

Posted by: Debsisdead | Sep 29 2020 8:00 utc | 193
The summer/winter stuff is specious nonsense when one examines how the rate of infection exploded in Sweden & England during the summer months after england in particular ceased many of their lockdown protocols.
Flu season is a furphy in other words.

Sure, the positive test “cases” peaked in Sweden in July when “covid-19 death” was at a minimum.
The deaths peaked March/April in all of Europe, See here for Sweden “cases” versus “deaths”.
So there is no corelation between positive test and disease. Or covid-19 is dangerous in Swedish winter and not dangerous in Swedish summer.
In Germany, positive test cases decreased in summer and pick up now in autumn. It is difficult to read anything into this, as a simple change in the number of amplification cycles will change the outcome of tests.
You may be right about seasonality though, as the deaths peaked with lockdown when experimental treatment with high doses of Hydroxychloroquin, Kaletra or Azithromycin was used.
You have the case of Spain (lots excess mortality) and Portugal (none), and Switzerland – German parts no excess mortality, French and Italian parts excess mortality. France like Sweden has a complete disconnect between case rates and mortality.
Maybe immune systems not working that well when it is cold? You do have regular seasonal peaks of death – flue in winter and heat wave in summer.
For some reason no politician in Germany worried about case rates during summer but worry picks up now in autumn. I guess most people realize by now that this virus was hoaxed out of proportion – the rest is politics.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 29 2020 8:56 utc | 194

Posted by: Debsisdead | Sep 29 2020 8:00 utc | 193
You are correct in that “positive test cases” do not corelate with seasons but covid-19 deaths do. At least for March/April in the whole of Europe.
Positive test cases cannot be compared as they depend on the number of tests and the number of amplification cycles, this is not standardized and may have changed over time.
And there are excess deaths in some countries but not in others, and excess death is regional within countries. So there is suspicion that the excess deaths were caused by testing toxic medication. But they may have been demographic (longer life expectancy) or due to the quality of the health system.
There is no corelation with lockdown.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 29 2020 9:39 utc | 195

> Posted by: somebody | Sep 29 2020 9:39 utc | 194

You are correct in that “positive test cases” do not corelate with seasons but covid-19 deaths do.

Hmm, why do you think that? Maybe maybe, could it be that during this second “wave”, coinciding with the summer months in Europe, (South-)Korea, Japan hospitals and doctors had learned a few more things about treating this disease, minimising thus the death toll ?

Posted by: phiw13 | Sep 29 2020 10:02 utc | 196

Posted by: phiw13 | Sep 29 2020 10:02 utc | 195
Hospitalisation rates have been down in summer, too. I suppose our immune systems are in better shape in summer. Fragile people died before spring.
Same as every year.
But yes, doctors have stopped using ventilators and refrain from toxic medication.
You need two to tango. A virus and an immune system.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 29 2020 12:43 utc | 197

what do you mean doctors stopped using ventilators??? they still use the in the u.s. and what “toxic medication” exactly

Posted by: pretzelattack | Sep 29 2020 13:07 utc | 198

@somebody
The false positives depend on the prevalence of the disease. If there is no disease but a 99,9 percent reliable positive test and you test one million people you will have 100 000 false positives.
No. With a 99.9% test you would have 1 in 1,000 false positive or 1,000 in one million.
Reliability of tests ranges from 90 to 100 percent according to a German certification process testing laboratories, but the genes with 100 percent recognition are not unique to Sars (in my opinion none are). Presumably testing for more than one gene improves reliability but it is doubtful laboratories make the effort with mass testing.
The paper you linked says: “98,9% to 99,7% correct qualitative results”. I find nothing in that paper that says 90%.
There is no standardized process.
You yourself wrote “according to a German certification process testing laboratories”
Hint: The paper and organization you linked are part of the standardized process 😉

Posted by: b | Sep 29 2020 13:10 utc | 199

b. 199
Some of the results for particular genes are 80 something percent. But anybody can look at the paper themselves and google if the genes are unique to covid-19.
Hint: The paper and organization you linked are part of the standardized process 😉
??
The paper is a feedback to laboratories on the quality of their tests. There is no European or even German law requiring laboratories to take part that I know of – do you?
I found this from EU: Coronavirus: Commission issues guidelines on testing from April 15

Moreover, unified ways to compare tests do not always exist.
An analysis carried out by the JRC indicates that the tests to detect the virus (so-called RT-PCR tests) usually perform well.
JRC scientists recommend using the tests that explicitly declare to follow the WHO protocol.
The JRC analysis indicates, however, that the current tests are not accompanied by sufficient proof of evidence regarding their performance characteristics.

From June: Coronavirus testing: information on test devices and methods in a single place

At the moment, a large number of tests already exist in the EU, and new tests are being developed.
Different tests are suitable in different contexts. Information on their performance, i.e. how well they work to achieve their intended purpose, is important for making choices, for instance as part of national strategies.
As a follow up action to the Communication “Guidelines on in vitro diagnostic tests and their performance”, the JRC has developed a database, which gathers in a single place information on the currently available tests.
The database contains publicly available information on devices, including elements of performance, and a collation of relevant scientific literature.
It does not include manufacturer technical documentation, which is not publicly available.

and

EU law (Directive 98/79/EC) stipulates that CE-marked devices must be manufactured so that they are suitable for the purpose intended by the manufacturer, taking account the generally acknowledged state of the art.
The manufacturer is responsible for evaluating the performance of the tests before placing the device on the market. This must be reflected in the technical documentation of the device.

So the quality of tests is up to manufacturer with documentation that is not public. I am told that laboratories produce their own tests.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 29 2020 13:35 utc | 200