Posted by: vinnieoh | Sep 30 2020 14:38 utc | 101
Well I have to admire your fortitude.
Yep, that sounds about right. My wife gets Dish so I watched “enough” and got her testimony afterwards. While we both know prediction is a mugs game I think your scenario sounds likely to pan out. Trump needed the knockout, and he didn’t get it. We’ll see if he is smart enough to know that. Some guy I read elsewhere said “He passed the Rocky test”.

Posted by: Bemildred | Sep 30 2020 15:00 utc | 104

Mark2 @107
From what I have seen of the debate it consisted of nothing but dog whistles. I didn’t watch much of it, of course, so it is possible that something substantive was accidentally said, but I rather doubt it and would be surprised given the individuals involved.
But yeah, I know both Dims and Repugs fully support the empire’s atrocities. The key difference being that the Repugs don’t deny it, and are even proud of it. It is the Dims who pretend to only grudgingly support the empire’s brutality who might benefit from having their noses rubbed in their complicity.

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 30 2020 15:28 utc | 106

@ bemildred… it was a gong show no matter how you slice it.. the usa lost.. that is the most obvious loser… after that – it seems to depend on who does the read…

Posted by: james | Sep 30 2020 15:39 utc | 108

and bemldred
thanks for the scott ridder overview… it is hard to make sense of last night in any coherent and rational way… it points to real dysfunction in the usa now…

Posted by: james | Sep 30 2020 15:44 utc | 110

The red-baiting consensus between Biden and Trump is difficult to ignore. Trump brands the reactionary, neoliberal Biden as a far left figure who he identifies as socialist. For as Trump has said, “there will be no socialism in the United States”. And as Nihilist-in-Chief he would put the nation on ice with Proud Boys and other irregulars.
Biden, for his part, gives free rein to the dogma of his Party, calling Trump “Putin’s puppy”, to continue super-spreading for the millionth time the brain virus that is Russiagate. The dems crush any hope the proles might have for any mild socialism or even a New Deal style remedy. Nor do they have any quibble about the crucifixion of Julian Assange as Trump and Pompeo frog-march the last of The Bill of Rights to its indefinite detention.
Biden and Trump are politicians of a degenerate stripe–the ones you would expect to find in a collapsing society–a country that has gone to the dogs.

Posted by: Copeland | Sep 30 2020 15:59 utc | 112

@juliana #111

Ah, ye admonitions and warnings! why stay ye not when ye come? But rather are ye predictions than warnings, ye shadows! Yet not so much predictions from without, as verifications of the foregoing things within. For with little external to constrain us, the innermost necessities of our being, these still drive us on.
–Herman Melville, Moby Dick, p.163

If Melville was right in thinking that “depths outlast heights”; he surely must have meant that the depths of the moral life outlast human prowess. The examined life is superior to the obsession that robs us of our humanity. The idea that God will no longer bless a country that repeats its crimes and abuses, is not a new concept.

STEERING now south-eastward by Ahab’s levelled steel, and her progress solely determined by Ahab’s level log and line; the Pequod held on her path toward the Equator. Making so long a passage through such unfrequented waters, descrying no ships, and ere long, sideways impelled by unvarying trade winds, over waves monotonously mild; all these seemed the strange calm things preluding some riotous and desperate scene.
At last, when the ship drew near to the outskirts, as it were, of the Equatorial fishing-ground, and in the deep darkness that goes before the dawn, was sailing by a cluster of rocky islets; the watch–then headed by Flask–was startled by a cry so plaintively wild and unearthly–like half-articulated wailings of the ghosts of all Herod’s murdered Innocents–that one and all, they started from their reveries, and for the space of some moments stood, or sat, or leaned all transfixed by listening, like the carved Roman slave, while that wild cry remained within hearing. The Christian or civilized part of the crew said it was mermaids, and shuddered; but the pagan harpooners remained unappalled. Yet the grey Manxman–the oldest mariner of all–declared that the wild thrilling sounds that were heard, were the voices of newly drowned men at sea.
(Melville, p. 514)

Posted by: Copeland | Sep 30 2020 16:44 utc | 114

I watched about forty minutes of the debate. conclusion is that trump won it because he only has to make potential voters so disgusted at the whole thing that they don’t vote for either candidate. for Biden to win, he would have to get ppl excited about him enough to overcome their lack of engagement.
somes notable moments:
trump accused Biden of trying to socialize health care like sanders, which Biden quickly denied it. after which trump said “you just lost the left.” I thought that was wholly accurate.
trump repeatedly said he did more in forty seven months in office than Biden ever did in forty seven years in govt. even democrats have to concede Biden is an establishment hack.
as for theatrics Biden at one point, flustered at being interrupted by trump, said “can you just shut up man? so u presidential.” in that moment Biden too lost all semblance of “presidential” ness which Americans care so much about, as if theatrics matters more than substance. the whole debate was a shit stain and even as theater, Biden shit himself.

Posted by: occupatio | Sep 30 2020 17:16 utc | 116

Upon some hours of reflection – I amend my previous statement slightly:
Biden did “Mission Accomplish” what he wanted: not screw up and say something memorably dumb. He stuck to his script well.
However, Trump clearly demonstrated far greater energy. He never read off his papers. And while annoying, he was on top of the ball 100% without need to rely on a paper prompter.
So I think both candidates accomplished what they had to: be “not Trump” for Biden and not screw up; be energetic Trump and emphasize just how “Sleepy” Joe is.
Strategically, the general disgust felt by the undecided voter is a win for Trump.

Posted by: c1ue | Sep 30 2020 19:07 utc | 118

hey c1ue….. thanks… i really think everyone loses in this set up… it was like 2 kids in a school yard acting out.. it was pathetic! this wallace guy might be a nice guy, but being nice isn’t what’s needed for the guy overseeing this type debate… he needed to walk away for a minute or two! in fact, if any of them had walked away temporarily, i would have had more respect for them for doing so.. it was horrible! unless they work this out beforehand, it will be much the same on the next debates.. truly pathetic.. no winner as i see it and only losers, including us who watched it… well, maybe slight entertainment value, like mud wrestling as i mentioned earlier…

Posted by: james | Sep 30 2020 19:42 utc | 120

Because “won” and here’s why. Of the millions who tuned in to watch, only a small portion of people whose votes are up for grab. These are people looking for a reason to vote based on likability or relatability. They may not care about policy nor do they have an opinion on policy that moves them one way or another. But they understand decorem; how “civilized people“ conduct themselves in a formal setting. Yes, Biden May be a criminal and a scoundrel, but he at least came across as civil or even Presidential (whatever that means) at least when compared to Trump. It doesn’t matter if Trump scored better on court justices, taxes, etc. Even if Trump was better on issues, that isn’t changing any votes. But to the undecided simply looking for a non-policy reason to vote one way or the other, Trump blew it.

Posted by: Musburger | Sep 30 2020 20:06 utc | 122

I totally ruined my health last night follow Taibi’s drinking rules – all the alcohol in the bar I mean in the house only lasted me for 45 minutes
We need to have at least 3 more of these kind of debates to put the american empire and American Exceptionalism(T.M.) in its grave
“…In Sweden, Dagens Nyheter, the paper of record, delivered a similarly bleak verdict in a lead editorial: “It was hard to believe that tonight’s battle was about who would lead the world’s superpower.”….

Posted by: michaelj72 | Sep 30 2020 21:12 utc | 124

Donald Trumps brand of fascism is insidious, slowly infecting your whole society. America has sleep walked into their present situation.
https://theintercept.com/2020/09/29/police-white-supremacist-infiltration-fbi/
Fascism spreads like a cancer and will have a similar effect on America and it’s population.

Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 30 2020 22:24 utc | 126

Mark2 @126–
Sorry to say Mark but as this title shows, Friendly Fascism: The New Face of Power in America, written by Bertram Gross and published in 1980 before Reagan/Bush came to power, it’s been well rooted here for awhile. Indeed, C. Wright Mills Power Elite in 1956 and other works proved the thesis that McCarthyism and the Cold War it helped escalate were definite indicators that Fascism had already taken root. IMO, when Henry Wallace wrote his famous op/ed on American Fascism in 1944, it was already established to the point where it could be exposed in that manner. But in doing so, Wallace exposed himself and was purged from the Vice-Presidency as a result, being replaced by Truman for the 1944 election.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 30 2020 22:57 utc | 128

Interesting information: according to Brazilian journalist Breno Altman:

Behind the scenes of one of those lives, I was able to ask a Chinese diplomat who he preferred to win the American elections. He didn’t even blink: “Trump. Four more years of him and the USA will be completely demoralized and in tatters domestically”.

It’s important to highlight that this is the opinion of one single diplomat, and that it was given in a very informal context, in which we don’t know (Breno Altman doesn’t specify this in his tweet) if it was meant as a joke or not.
In my opinion, it was just the diplomat venting off his frustrations. It is very unlikely China would fall for such a failed tactic as the “the worse, the better” one.

Posted by: vk | Sep 30 2020 23:44 utc | 130

Karlofi @ 128
Thanks for that. No surprises for me though it has been the same in the U.K.
The good news is that —— Nazies are a small pathetic minority of cowards. Be it in uniform or out. In Britain we — Antifa have a long tradition of keeping them off the streets.
Also we must remember the importance of the French resistance !
Like Hitler, Trump has his lieing propergander machene that fooled the German public.
I hope trump gets his bunker scene in this American disaster movie.

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 1 2020 0:53 utc | 132

Perhaps the lesson to be learned from the last war against fascism, is that both sides suffered massive lose of inocent life, peoples personal suffering. I have to tell the American far right what ever they hope for will come at the cost of equal loss of life on both sides. And it won’t be worth the distruction of your whole country.
As for the rest of the world we watch with the strange fascination you whatch a car wreak with, plus a sense of karma. What America has done to a large part of the world is about to happen to America and done by its president.

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 1 2020 1:23 utc | 134

The trick is this ——Those so called proud boys ect ect are really just ignorant grunts ! No brain losers. They are only used as a buffer. Dont waist your time energy and resources. You want to look above that low level. And focus on the people above and that is several layers. Why this situation has arose is lack of consequences, In their own back yard.
Fascists will soon show there capatilsim. Plundering the publics property, rape atrocity’s ect.
There are no by standers in a civil war. The public become refugees.
Did they mention that in the debate.

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 1 2020 2:31 utc | 136

OMG this is the best comment stream ever – it totally encapsulates the corporate sponsored insanity that is our current so-called culture. You just gotta laugh, because otherwise, you just gotta cry.
Yes, the debates should be moderated by the MST3K crowd!! That would be awesome!
And yes a bathing suit contest would be – amusing. Though I would still prefer the steel cage match, myself.
And yes yes, we should all be drinking heavily after this!
“Don’t vote, you’ll just encourage the bastards”.
In an alternative reality where I am president and dinosaurs still roam the earth, you will all of you be valued members of my administration!!!

Posted by: TG | Oct 1 2020 4:28 utc | 138

@Musburger #122
Your view that civility be the basis by which the undecided voter would make their decision is clearly delusional.
Trump wasn’t civil in this debate nor in 2016.
Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti (The Hill/Rising show) had more substantive criticisms: they noted that neither Trump nor Biden addressed the issues facing Americans well.
Biden – in failing to drive home all of the strong criticisms of Trump starting with COVID response.
Trump – in going deep on “conspiracy” theories including the $3.5M Hunter payout and repeated “voter fraud”.
But they also noted that Biden was limp and lifeless.
This election will be fascinating because “Sleepy Joe” and his nonexistent campaigning (he will visit Florida for the first time this year, in October!) and “I’m not Trump” position is going up against Trump’s legal-speed fueled maniacism.
Trump held a rally the night after the debate – where was Joe? Planning his next week Florida rally.
So we have an even less energetic version of HRC’s lackluster physical campaigning in swing states but with a less unlikeable candidate vs. an incumbent Trump.
Interesting times.

Posted by: c1ue | Oct 1 2020 14:40 utc | 140

Has anybody come across articles praising the debate as an example of transparency in politics? I seem to remember there were people who found Trump to be a breath of fresh air for his straight talk and openness.

Posted by: dh | Oct 1 2020 17:15 utc | 142