Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 25, 2020

The Back And Forth About Navalny's 'Poisoning'

The case of the alleged 'poisoning' of the Russian rabble rouser Alexey Navalny is becoming more curious.

Navalny fell ill on August 20 during a flight from Tomsk in Siberia to Moscow. The plane made an emergency landing in Omsk where he was transferred to a hospital. Navalny fell into a coma. The doctors diagnosed a sharp drop in his blood sugar. Navalny has diabetes and his symptoms as described were consistent with a diabetic shock. We therefore (somewhat prematurely) concluded that Navalny was not poisoned.

After a day and a half in the Omsk hospital the patient stabilized. On request of his family he was flown to Berlin and admitted to the Charité hospital. The Charité is a very large (14,000 employees) state run university clinic that is leading in many medical fields. Its laboratories found effects consistent with the ingestion of, or contact with, a cholinesterase inhibitor:

Following his admission, Mr. Navalny underwent extensive examination by a team of Charité physicians. Clinical findings indicate poisoning with a substance from the group of cholinesterase inhibitors. The specific substance involved remains unknown, and a further series of comprehensive testing has been initiated. The effect of the poison – namely, the inhibition of cholinesterase in the body – was confirmed by multiple tests in independent laboratories.

As a result of this diagnosis, the patient is now being treated with the antidote atropine.

Cholinesterase is needed in the human nerve system to break down acetylcholine which is a signaling substance between synapses. Inhibitors of cholinesterase are used in the therapy of Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, anxiety disorder and other illnesses. Cholinesterase inhibitors can be found in certain plant extracts or synthesized. There are two types of cholinesterase inhibitors, carbamates and organophosphates. Both types are also widely used as pesticides. During World War II organophosphates were developed as chemical weapons (tabun, sarin, soman) but not widely used.

The wording of the Charité statement seems to imply that the laboratory results point to the potential effects of a cholinesterase inhibitors, not to a specific substance itself. This is consistent with a statement by the clinic in Omsk which insists that no cholinesterase inhibitors, i.e a 'poison', were found:

“When Alexey Navalny was admitted to the in-patient clinic, he was examined for a wide range of narcotics, synthetic substances, psychedelic drugs and medical substances, including cholinesterase inhibitors. The result was negative,” said Sabayev, chief of the acute poisoning unit at the Omsk emergency care hospital where Navalny was treated before being airlifted to Germany.

“Besides, he did not have a clinical picture, specific for poisoning with substances from the group of cholinesterase inhibitors,” Sabayev, who is also the top toxicologist in the Omsk Region and the Siberian Federal District, added.

We can be quite sure that a trained toxicologist would recognize a Cholinergic crisis. There is however a documented case from India in which an organophosphate poisoning was falsely interpreted as diabetic ketoacidosis (hat tip Bernd Neuner):

We present a 15-year-old girl who was initially treated for “diabetic ketoacidosis” with further worsening of her general condition. This delayed recovery, coupled with focused investigations, finally led us to a diagnosis and the appropriate management of an intentional overdose with organophosphorous (OP) pesticide, presenting as diabetic ketoacidosis.

But according to Kremlin spokesman Dimitry Peskov the Russian doctors made the right diagnosis and applied the correct therapy (machine translation):

The statement by German doctors on the diagnosis of FBK founder Alexei Navalny is nothing new for Russian specialists, Dmitry Peskov, press secretary of the Russian President, told reporters.

“We have not yet learned anything new from this statement. We specifically contacted our doctors and asked how, from a professional point of view, we can relate to what was written. The fact is that the fact of this lowered cholinesterase was established in the first hours by our doctors in a hospital in Omsk. And the atropine, which the Germans are talking about and which is now being given to the patient, began to be administered during the first hour of the patient's stay in intensive care,” said Peskov.

The presidential spokesman stressed that the level of cholinesterase may decrease for a variety of reasons, including from taking a number of medications. At the same time, German doctors did not identify a toxic substance in Navalny's analyzes.

“Therefore, it is very important here to find out what caused the decrease in cholinesterase levels. And neither our doctors, nor the Germans have yet been able to establish the cause. At least, this follows from the statement of our German doctors' colleagues. There is no substance, unfortunately, it cannot be established, analyzes do not show it,” Peskov explained.

He stressed that the analytical data of Russian and German doctors are the same, but the conclusions are different.

“We do not understand why our German colleagues are in such a hurry, using the word “poisoning”. You know, this version was among the first that our doctors considered, but I repeat once again: the substance has not yet been established. Maybe the Germans have some data,” said Peskov, noting that Russian doctors are ready to provide samples of the first tests.

If Navalny was poisoned - which is not established - the next question must be how Navalny came into contact with a cholinesterase inhibitor. Was the contact caused by himself or by someone else? Was it intentionally or unintentionally?

Navalny's spokeswomen has insisted that the only substance Navalny ingested that morning was a tea from an airport bar. A CCTV video from the airport shows that the tea was brought from the bar by a person that then sits down with Navalny. They presumably traveled together. How would the airport barkeeper, if he supposedly poisoned Navalny, knew for whom the tea was?

As 'western' media continue with their "Putin poisoned Navalny" nonsense it is important to again point out that other people have more reason to harm Navalny than the Kremlin does:

During the last years Navalny has made some enemies by uncovering corruption cases. His latest one was about the local governor of Tomsk. It was also the reason why he had flown there. Should Navaly become the victim of a crime the suspects should be sought there.

Posted by b on August 25, 2020 at 11:57 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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Bear in mind that the Russians also had a team of experts from Moscow in constant consultation with the Omsk doctors as they flew from Moscow to Omsk. At the hospital, they observed and probably ran some tests themselves.

Also, there were at least two blood samplings, maybe a third, tested in separate labs, one back in Moscow, all of which had the same "no poison" result.

That the Germans have not come up with any trace of poison is a strong indication that Navalny was not poisoned.

If a poison was used by someone, it is a very fast disappearing poison. So, name some poisons that can create the effect suffered by the victim, while disappearing from the body within an hour.

That's the test. And all the doctors in Russia and Germany and none in the world so far can name such a poison.

No poison known? No poisoning done.

Posted by: Red Ryder | Aug 26 2020 2:08 utc | 101

Circe, my dear Circe

Nice to see you back.

Except you are back with your special glasses.

Putin may be a son of a bitch. But he is not dumb. And I believe the people at the GRU are perfectly capable of a clean hit.

Why poison? what about an airplane accident? a Road accident? a defenestration (clinton's style). a sudden death in prison by inhalation of picric acid (richardson style in whitewater scandal)?

Or cancer inducing radiation at any hotel used by the eventual victim?
Castro, Chavez, Kuschner and others.

What about dismemberment in any russian consulate a la MBS?

Or drone assassination like Soleimani and Irakian general?

In this aspect, Putin is not yet a big boy. whereas, you kill and brazenly take credit.

And then what?

Posted by: CarlD | Aug 26 2020 2:15 utc | 102

@Posted by: Haassaan | Aug 25 2020 23:17 utc | 94

obvious immediate consequence dead, burned and irradiated people with symptoms showing right away - for those doubters thinking Lebanese gov. could suppress something like that.by: Abe @ 99
<= I am no weapons expert but i understand neutron bombs.. cause virtually no physical damage, just wipe out the biological species humans. even the electrical circuits keep running.. in a few hours the place is gieger counter clean?
Its the seven in a row, exactly spaced clicking sounds..and the two fighter jets that have not been explained.
try this on

Posted by: snake | Aug 26 2020 2:17 utc | 103

Jen 95

I.m not sure that is right. Russian doctors detected a problem with cholinesterase very early on and had him on atropine. That is one reason they also thought toxin was the most likely cause. When all toxicology tests came back negative, there was a conference of doctors and they thought the most likely cause of Navalny's problems was the sharp drop in blood sugar. Navalny took a long time to stabilize, similar to a large overdose of insulin, but also has the cholinesterase problem plus what I take to be a metabolic disorder to do with carbohydrates. That's usually an inability to metabolize certain sugars into glucose.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 26 2020 2:18 utc | 104

I see the Beirut nuke BS has not gone away, despite the idiocy.

OK, how about this? They used a Star Wars laser to blow up the fertilizer. And no one noticed an X-ray laser because they're invisible. Or maybe they fired it from the mythical "jet" which absolutely no one has seen a radar report of.

Oh, I know! It was a UFO! It's all part of Trump's plan to reveal that UFOs and aliens are real and thus win the election - because no sitting President has ever been defeated in an election when the world was at war with Mars...

Everyone happy now? Jesus Baron von Christ...

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Aug 26 2020 2:44 utc | 105

RSH

It was obviously one of Trump's Super Duper missiles.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/16/politics/trump-super-duper-missile/index.html

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 26 2020 2:56 utc | 106

Could be a crash from an exotic synthetic. Could be the 'assistant' slipped him something. Diabetic shock could do it. Will the hospital officials share data from the labs?

Posted by: Josh | Aug 26 2020 3:51 utc | 107

Will trace amounts of any quantifiable substance at all be detected, as the result of labratory sample analysis?

Posted by: Josh | Aug 26 2020 3:53 utc | 108

The Title of "Opposition Leader" is overblown.
Ukrainian.
Yale Attendee and Fellow, with a Daughter in Stanford.
Just an owned, 5thColumn Attention-Whore who cries "Corruption" at every turn.

Posted by: IronForge | Aug 26 2020 3:59 utc | 109

Porton Down tea - special blend?

https://www.interfax.ru/russia/723210
"INTERFAX.RU - The State Duma's Security and Anti-Corruption Committee will check the circumstances of what happened to opposition leader Alexei Navalny for foreign interference, said the speaker of the lower house of parliament Vyacheslav Volodin on Tuesday.

"The State Duma Security Committee will be instructed to analyze what happened in order to understand whether this was an attempt on the part of foreign states to harm the health of a Russian citizen in order to create tension in Russia, as well as formulate new accusations against our country," Volodin quotes the press service of the State Duma.

According to the speaker, statements by German Chancellor Angela Merkel and EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy Josep Borrell , following the removal of the oppositionist to Germany, indicate the possibility of a provocation ."

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 26 2020 4:27 utc | 110

No diabetes. Navalny's attempted martyrdom results from currently unknown causes.

INTERFAX.RU - Press Secretary of the President of Russia Dmitry Peskov considers it hasty and incorrect to talk about the fact that opposition leader Alexei Navalny was definitely poisoned.

"We do not understand why our German colleagues are in such a hurry , using the word poisoning. This version was among the first that our doctors considered, but the substance has not yet been established," he said at a briefing on August 25.

According to him, "the medical analytics itself is absolutely the same for our and that of the German doctors, but the conclusions differ."

“Maybe the Germans have some data. In this regard, our doctors are ready to provide samples of the first analyzes, to offer their German colleagues to exchange biological materials,” the press secretary assured.

The Kremlin does not see anything new in the statement of the Berlin clinic "Charite" about the possible reasons for the sharp deterioration in Navalny's health.

"There should be no room for noisy and empty statements. Here you need to calmly analyze what has been written," Peskov said. ".

"The fact is that the fact of a low cholinesterase content was established in the first hours by our doctors in a hospital in Omsk," the spokesman recalled and added that atropine, which the Germans had chosen for treatment, began to be administered to Navalny in the first hour of his stay in intensive care ...

"A decrease in the level of cholinesterase is possible for a variety of reasons: it is possible when taking and using medications, various medications. That is, drugs lower the level of cholinesterase," Peskov continued. the Germans have not yet been able to establish. At least, this follows from the statements of the German colleagues and our doctors. The substance is not present, unfortunately, it cannot be identified, analyzes do not show it. "

"My German colleague immediately began to talk about the likelihood of poisoning. We can only partially agree, because he had to say that there is also the likelihood of a second, third and fourth option. These are all the options that were considered by our doctors, we think about only one thing. incorrect at this stage, "Peskov continued."

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 26 2020 4:36 utc | 111

The link for 111 https://www.interfax.ru/russia/723148

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 26 2020 4:40 utc | 112

...
Deputy of the municipality of Yaroslavl, M.D., surgeon Dmitry Petrovsky commented on this "find" of German colleagues.

"Cholinesterase inhibitors are widely used medicines in medicine. Basically, they are used in the postoperative management of patients, when transferring to independent breathing. That's what Navalny had.

...
Thanks MPN for the link to Evdokimova's tweets.

Posted by: Jen | Aug 25 2020 23:21 utc | 95

And thanks to Jen for staying focused on core issues.
It's pretty simple. Who do we believe? Spokesmen from Germany, a country which has been under AmeriKKKan-Nazi Military Occupation since 1945, or spokesmen from Russia, a country which hasn't been occupied by Nazis of any stripe, and never will be?

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Aug 26 2020 4:50 utc | 113

@ 100 jackrabbit... those names would work too! either that or peter's porton down tea! it is hard to take all this with a straight face...

Posted by: james | Aug 26 2020 5:00 utc | 114

From the interfax link
"The fact is that the fact of a low cholinesterase content was established in the first hours by our doctors in a hospital in Omsk," the spokesman recalled and added that atropine, which the Germans had chosen for treatment, began to be administered to Navalny in the first hour of his stay in intensive care ...

And
There must be a reason to investigate what happened to Navalny, Peskov said. According to him, doctors must first find the substance that influenced the policy, establish what caused this condition.

Knowing Navalny had low cholinesterase, all known inhibitors medical and otherwise would have been tested for. The Russian hospital gave the Germans results of blood tests and treatment including atropine. German tests have not found any known inhibitor...

Sounds like something M got the boffins to cook up for 007.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 26 2020 5:25 utc | 115

By the way, with all due apologies to Hoarsewhisperer @ 113, I'm going a bit off the topic: Nordstream II must be coming close to being completed.

Oh my! That wouldn't have been possible had the Germans pulled their heads in and capitulated to US and other NATO countries' demands and pressure.

Oh well, what the Lord giveth in one thing, He also taketh away in another ...

Posted by: Jen | Aug 26 2020 5:28 utc | 116

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 25 2020 17:32 utc | 41 -- "Those wide open staring eyes.... give more than a hint of madness."

Oh, good. Another person who pays attention to physionomy.

I see 3 others with wide-open eyes -- shiffty shit (thyroid problem? lunacy?); maxine waters (certifiably bonkers); AOC (name of a poison?).

But... but... but... these are "normal" leaders of a "normal" nation.... right?

Posted by: kiwiklown | Aug 26 2020 5:35 utc | 117

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 25 2020 17:32 utc | 41 -- "Those wide open staring eyes.... give more than a hint of madness."

Oh, good. Another person who pays attention to physionomy.

I see 3 others with wide-open eyes -- shiffty shit (thyroid problem? lunacy?); maxine waters (certifiably bonkers); AOC (name of a poison?).

But... but... but... these are "normal" leaders of a "normal" nation.... right?

Posted by: kiwiklown | Aug 26 2020 5:38 utc | 118

Jen 116

A few odd things going on. EU the opposite to US with Iran and also to an extent on China. But EU very enthusiastic about regime change in Belarus. There was also a mess up in the protests with people being marched everywhere and getting tired. The Europeans blamed this on the US/Brit/Polish operation Nexta because all that marching around wasn't in their plans. The Europeans look to be operating through Lithuania.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 26 2020 5:39 utc | 119

Peter AU1

Hello? It's the Germans that gave him the atropine and now according to Jen a Russian doctor is claiming that if the Germans find Navalny has Cholinesterase inhibitors in his blood it's because they are administered after a person has been on a ventilator to protect vital organs, and probably the doctors at Omsk followed this procedure. Who knows what the hell they followed or if they even gave him atropine! If you had a life-threatening illness would you put yourself in their hands? I'll answer for you: HELL NO.

@98 james

It figures you would make a mockery of the suffering of a human being and his family.

@95 Jen

I'll wait for the 2nd non-Russian professional opinion, thanks. And I imagine that the pharma-type Cholinesterase inhibitors he would have been given by Russian doctors would not have the severe adverse effects Navalny was already suffering as the industrial ones have or they wouldn't be used medically. And besides, the doctors at Omsk claim that while they found no inhibitors his Cholinesterase was low, so wouldn't it be dangerous to give him a medical inhibitor that would lower it further? That opinion you posted makes no sense.

Therefore, if the Germans gave him the antidote, atropine, that is administered when there is severe nerve cell distress affecting the lungs and brain; it's because he was poisoned probably with the lethal, industrial type inhibitor since he had severe symptoms, okay? Their statement reads: clinical evidence suggests an intoxication through a substance belonging to the group of cholinesterase inhibitors.

So it's probably bullshet or incompetence that the Russian doctors found no inhibitors but only low Cholinesterase. They put him on a ventilator, yes, but, did they really administer 2 doses of atropine as they now claim? Who knows what they really did. The Germans have administered the atropine. We'll see now how he comes out of this and what more in-depth analysis reveals. For now I'm not reading any more of your spin and bull.

But for james and rabbit to make fun of someone who went into shock which is frightening and might suffer brain damage as a result is TOTALLY DEPRAVED insensitivity.

Posted by: Circe | Aug 26 2020 6:06 utc | 120

Circe

I have linked and quoted the piece on atropine. The doctors opinion that had nothing to do with the case is meaningless. German tests, like the Russian tests did not detect any known inhibitors.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 26 2020 6:16 utc | 121

Posted by: Nathna Mulcahy | Aug 25 2020 18:39 utc | 58 -- "....the collective west has buried Julian Assange alive? Hypocricy is a much too weak word for it."

Yuppp. I tried, but cdn't find a word for such evil. Made me recall other evil words, eg. "We came, we saw, he died", and "500,000 dead (brown) children? It was worth it."


Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 25 2020 18:49 utc | 62 -- "If the Russians are really trying to assassinate, why do it in so theatrical a manner? Just shoot him twice in the back of the head and call it suicide like the Americans do."

Yuppp. And then shoot the useful idiot who fired those two shots. End of story. Just like in the great indispensable exceptional "normal" nation.

Posted by: kiwiklown | Aug 26 2020 6:20 utc | 122

Circe @ 120:

You can read whatever your tiny little mind wants to see in whatever we MoA commenters post.

When Navalny first went into hospital in Omsk, he was tested for various substances including drugs that act as cholinesterase inhibitors. When he was in intensive care, he was put on other cholinesterase inhibitors to counteract possible side-effects of other medication he was being given to stabilise his metabolism.

The German doctors at Charité need to say what drug or drugs of the cholinesterase inhibitor group they found in Navalny when he came into their care. Should these drugs turn out to be what Dmitri Petrovsky was talking about when he spoke to Journalist Pravda, the Germans are going to look like fools.

It is best to wait to find out if Navalny really was poisoned while on the plane that was supposed to have flown him from Tomsk to Moscow, and which was diverted to Omsk, or before he boarded that plane. The Russians have samples of his blood taken while he was in the hospital in Omsk. Those samples can be flown to laboratories in countries that do not have a dog in the spat between Russia and NATO, and the results compared with what the Germans claim they found.

Posted by: Jen | Aug 26 2020 7:47 utc | 123

Reading the comments it’s easy to conclude that a over informed public is the most ignorant of all. All of the sudden a doctorate in biology, pharmacy, chemistry and a lot of other sciences is needed, when it is so simple, who the hell benefits from an intoxicated spent blogger that never was a real threat to the powers that be in Russia? Simple answer, but no, we need to know molecular biology to see the whole picture, Belarus, gerontocracy, pandemia, Wisconsin, and a very long list of catastrophes, the main one: common sense is lost.

Posted by: Paco | Aug 26 2020 8:00 utc | 124

Jen 123

I don't think Navalny has been given inhibitors to come of incubation or otherwise. To the contrary Navalny was treated with atropine from the start by the Russian doctors.

many countries have laws about what doctors can say publicly about patient records and treatments. Russia appears to be somewhat like Australia as far as those laws go. only the patient has full rights to all medical records, and if they are moved to the care of another doctor, that doctor has the right to the patient records. The Russian doctors said as much as they could under Russian law. As this is now a geo-political case, it will be up to the Russian government as to what information is released.
The Russian government has said that an early clinical finding was low cholinesterase of unknown cause as test did not reveal any traces of known inhibitors.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 26 2020 8:25 utc | 125

CarlD #102

Circe, my dear Circe

Nice to see you back.

Except you are back with your special glasses.

Putin may be a son of a bitch. But he is not dumb. And I believe the people at the GRU are perfectly capable of a clean hit.


I like Putins style, just ask James le Mesurier.

James Le Mesurier, who helped organize Syria's civil defense The White Helmets, was found dead in the Turkish capital Istanbul on Monday. The body of Le Mesurier, 48, was discovered near his apartment at around 4.30 am. Turkish media said that, with fractures to his head and legs, he appeared to have fallen from a balcony.

First floor balcony at that. Just a little whisper from Vlad the Dread and he fell for it. There is nothing too demeaning that can describe Mesurier's evil existence. I'm with Vlad.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 26 2020 9:38 utc | 126

uncle tungsten 126

I'm not sure about Vlad the Bad, but I suspect I would have inflicted some punishment on the managers of white helmets after watching some of their snuff movies.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 26 2020 9:43 utc | 127

Thank you Peter AU1 #127

Yes, for the white helmets something special could be formulated. I wont elaborate with anything too vulgar here right now but they deserve a special place in the Marquis de Sade's consideration especially for all the children they murdered.

I must say though that I am astounded at the infantile nonsense that humans have descended to as a result of the 'hate russia. hate russia' chanting. SAD :(

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 26 2020 9:52 utc | 128

I do not really see the point of delving into complicated medicinal debates. Even if one of us here was a qualified MD, even a doctor would need to have access to the patient's records to have an informed opinion. So, we are all shooting in the dark anyway.

The problem is intractable. Russophobes will never trust the Russian doctors and results of tests done in Russia, as nobody can fully exclude falsification or political pressure.

Sane people (sorry, I meant non-russophobes) will not trust Germany either. I mean, Navalny was practically given a BND escort and Angela Merkel's spokesman has already gone on the record accusing Russia in an underhanded way. How can you trust whatever the German doctors will say, in an hospital a few hundred meters from Germany's political decision centers and literally swarming with BND operatives ? Which doctor will have the guts to contradict political leadership and risk being found at the bottom of the Spree in a few weeks ?

Only conclusion is that the beliefs that Navalny was or was not poisoned are equally infalsifiable and cannot be proven. I do not see what could be admitted as conclusive proof by all the parties.

So we can only fall back to the good old cui bono analysis. And here, simple logic dictates that poisoning Navalny is easily the worst move of the decade for Russia, at the worst possible time : when Russia is trying to stabilize the Belarusian situation, as well as completing Nord Stream II pipeline. We are asked to believe that Putin basically said "hey you know what, screw the international situation and my carefully nurtured strategic projects, I absolutely need to eliminate a guy who polls at around 2% for some elections no one outside Russia cares about, and which my party would have won anyway". The same guy who for years has gone out of his way to appease Turkey in Syria, and has systematically been extremely cautious in the Donbass despite half of Russia clamouring for annexation.

When faced with all this, the only answers I saw until now from MSM/Russophobes are either
1. Putin doesn't care about international opinion, he kills whomever he wants. Sure, then why doesn't Putin annex Donbass, or bomb the Turkish military to smithereenr, or kill dozens of guys much more nefarious and influential than Navalny ?
2. Putin is just an evil madman.

It's a testament to the West's extraordinary propaganda machine that there are still people who can utter or imply such insanities without being laughed out of the room.

Posted by: Micron | Aug 26 2020 9:56 utc | 129

More deaths under protesters in fascist US ...

3 shot, 2 dead in overnight Jacob Blake protests in Kenosha, Wisconsin
https://abcnews.go.com/US/shots-fired-tear-gas-deployed-wisconsin-jacob-blake/story?id=72616792

Silence from EU states is deafening ...

Posted by: Oui | Aug 26 2020 10:19 utc | 130

@129
Sane people (sorry, I meant non-russophobes) will not trust Germany either.

Maybe our host could elaborate on that point, generally the germans have a well earned reputation for being a more civilized country than the imperial metropolis, but they're no saints. They actively participated in the Yugoslavia dismemberment, they screwed the ossies, and they accused the cucumber producers of Southern Spain as responsible for the E-coli outbreak when in fact the origin was within Germany, with sprout producers. Besides the bad reputation the losses were considerable and an out of court settlement was reached, but the damage was done. So they are no angels, and I have no reason to trust them more than to trust anybody else.

Posted by: Paco | Aug 26 2020 10:41 utc | 131

Oui 130

Just business as usual for the authoritarian state. There is 1000 extrajudicial cop killings per year in the US. Around three per day on average. Yank propaganda a year or two back was that it was "surmised" there were 1000 executions per year in China.
In yankistan, its nothing more than statistics, that can be found in wikipedia and yank gov publications that show the number of extrajudicial killings is as high or higher than the propaganda figures on executions in China.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 26 2020 10:43 utc | 132

Micron

One solid fact that does need to be taken into consideration as to what happened is Navalny's words of the day before.

Russian doctors did not come to a solid diagnosis of what caused his clinical condition.

What happens now depends very much on the narrative. The Russian doctors believe that they got him past a critical point and he should now survive.
I suspect the narrative says he will die a long drawn out death like Litvinenko. I think he had a much better chance of survival in a Russian hospital.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 26 2020 10:55 utc | 133

@Peter AU1

I do not think Navalny's death would be useful to the anglo-zionists. I think following narratives are possible from their point of view :

1. Navalny survives. Then it will be the story of a heroic save against all odds by those skilled German doctors, who managed to bring Navalny back from the dead and the evil deeds of the Russian siloviki. Russia will be blamed for the murder attempt.
2. Navalny stays in a coma. Then the story will be that the German doctors did all they could, but the poison was too subtle and too advanced for even the super-duper Western medicine. Russia will be blamed. In a few months tabloids will trot out lurid tales of ultrasecret Soviet research and secret poisons.
3. Navalny dies. See above.

Contrary to Skripal, where there was a real risk he would not play along and go back to Russia, blowing the whole thing, Navalny can be expected to play his part even if he survive, and to continue being an asset for the West. There may be a complication related to his residence ; if Navalny goes back to Russia, this will suggest he didn't take the poisoning attempt seriously, and if he doesn't go back, it will reduce his propaganda value, making it a little too obvious who his puppetmasters are (a bit like Kasparov). My impression is that no matter what, professional dissidents like Kasparov or Khodorkovsky are less bankable since they moved out of Russia. That may be the biggest argument for his backers to prefer Navalny dead rather than alive. You can bet that in six months you would see the Navalny act being passed by Congress.

Posted by: Micron | Aug 26 2020 11:21 utc | 134

"Even smallest of nukes would make a lot of fires and burn injuries at great distance..."

Ah, yes, and laser beams in the vacuum of space make electronic "beamy" noises there, and cars blow up in crashes, and Rambo is seven feet tall and gets a photogenic scratch on his bicep in every fight.

[Aside: Sylvester Stallone, who played Rambo, was only 5' 10" tall. The magic of movies!]

People who get their understanding of atomic weapons and novichok and other sensationalized things from Hollywood should leave their understanding of them in the theater. While 100 tons of TNT contains a lot of energy, that energy doesn't suddenly become magical when released by an atomic weapon.

Here's some nice reading on the effects of a nuclear explosion, though do keep in mind that it mostly discusses air bursts of much larger devices than tactical "bunker buster" ones. Here is the first couple paragraphs:


The effects of a nuclear explosion on its immediate vicinity are typically much more destructive and multifaceted than those caused by conventional explosives. In most cases, the energy released from a nuclear weapon detonated within the lower atmosphere can be approximately divided into four basic categories:



Depending on the design of the weapon and the location in which it is detonated, the energy distributed to any one of these categories may be significantly higher or lower. The blast effect is created by the coupling of immense amounts of energy, spanning the electromagnetic spectrum, with the surroundings. The environment of the explosion (e.g. submarine, ground burst, air burst, or exo-atmospheric) determines how much energy is distributed to the blast and how much to radiation. In general, surrounding a bomb with denser media, such as water, absorbs more energy and creates more powerful shockwaves while at the same time limiting the area of its effect....


Pay attention to that part where it is said "...surrounding a bomb with denser media, such as water, absorbs more energy and creates more powerful shockwaves..." That part has bearing on the issue.

Since any notional nuclear device used in Beirut would have been of the bunker buster type, there would be no fires and no prompt radiation as the nuclear reaction itself would occur underground and the environment surrounding the blast site would be shielded from the immediate effects of nuclear fission by surrounding soil, and further attenuated by the existing smoke cloud from already burning fireworks, ammonium nitrate, and other materials in the warehouse above the blast.

People, please stop getting your information about these things from Hollywood. Nuclear weapons are not magical and novichok does not wait precisely four hours before first symptoms.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 26 2020 11:27 utc | 135

If the OPCW gets involved like with the Skripals and Syria, it is very important to note that the changes in the OPCW policy now allow the OPCW being weaponized for propaganda.

https://www.opcw.org/media-centre/featured-topics/decision-addressing-threat-chemical-weapons-use
"The decision further affirmed that whenever chemical weapons use occurs on the territory of a State Party, “those who were the perpetrators, organisers, sponsors or otherwise involved should be identified” and it underscored “the added value of the Secretariat conducting an independent investigation of an alleged use of chemical weapons with a view to facilitating universal attribution of all chemical weapons attacks”."

Well documented by various whistle blowers is how the OPCW abused this authority in relation to Syria.

https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/12/opcw-whistleblower-mistreatment-douma-investigators/

So when the OPCW gets involved this "highly likely" confirms a western intelligence operation.

Posted by: JR | Aug 26 2020 11:55 utc | 136

It's all coming together, folks [machine translated]:

Will Nord Stream 2 "Respond" for Navalny?

Meanwhile, the German press is already in full swing discussing what should be the response to what happened. And the most popular option is to stop the construction of the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline.

In particular, the business publication Handelsblatt calls for the introduction of sanctions in response to the "attempt to assassinate Alexei Navalny." What kind? The construction of the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline cannot be completed.

“The desire to reduce dependence on Russian oil and gas is now acquiring an additional political dimension. With the help of energy projects such as Nord Stream 2, Russia earns the money it uses, among other things, to finance its repressive apparatus. From energy supplies from the East, it will protect Russia from revenge for new and tough sanctions, "- this is the strategy described by Handelsblatt.

The fact the Handelsblatt is a business newspaper/magazine is important information, because, in post-war liberal democracies, business publications are traditionally more direct, more "to the point", more sincere than the usual mass media publications, as their target audience is usually the capitalists or the upper middle class proto-capitalists.

The Pravda article also mentions at least one relevant German politician who's been openly calling for the cancelling of the Nord Stream 2 [again, machine-translated]:

The deputy chairman of the Free Democratic Party faction in the Bundestag, Alexander Lambsdorf, also demanded sanctions. Note that earlier he had already called on Angela Merkel to stop the gas pipeline construction project in connection with the case of the murder of Georgian citizen Zelimkhan Khangoshvili in Berlin in 2019, charges of which were brought against the Russian.

So, we have documented evidence of at least one political faction in the Bundestag that's against the Nord Stream 2 since at least 2019.

This gives strength to my hypothesis that there are two factions in modern Germany: a Rhine (Atlanticist) and a Prussian one.


Posted by: vk | Aug 26 2020 11:55 utc | 137

TASS reports :


Omsk doctors in an open letter stated the inadmissibility of the pressure of supporters of blogger Alexei Navalny on doctors who treated him after an emergency hospitalization.

“People without medical education make diagnoses, talk about treatment, manipulate information. At the same time, none of them witnessed his condition and was unfamiliar with the narrowly professional and requiring additional knowledge of the results of analyzes and examinations. In fact, we are faced with such a phenomenon, as a "political" diagnosis that has nothing to do with medicine," the letter says.

Just to remind - earlier, the doctor who treated Navalny received threats.

Posted by: alaff | Aug 26 2020 12:16 utc | 138

@123 Jen

Missy, don't call me a tiny mind when you offer cockamamie, lame-brain, state-approved scripted theories.

First of all, even Peter and b agree with me that Navalny was not given inhibitors in Omsk and they found no other drugs of the type you allude to.

However German doctors clearly state clinical evidence suggests an intoxication through a substance belonging to the group of cholinesterase inhibitors..

You know, the Germans were one of the most efficient in handling the pandemic and containing deaths. I think I'd rather entrust myself to them than doctors in Siberia.

FYI, there is a long list in the group of industrial pesticide nerve agent-type cholinesterase inhibitors and it takes time to find the precise one.

And okay, maybe they gave him atropine in Omsk, but just the fact that they claim not to have found intoxication by a substance in cholinesterase inhibitors group leaves me skeptical, since they admit no other drugs were found in his system and yet his cholinesterase was low and he was suffering severe inhibitor-related symptoms!

Do the research as opposed to reading off the state script. Who's the pea brain, now?

Posted by: Circe | Aug 26 2020 13:10 utc | 139

Let me just throw this silly notion out there.

Why might Navalny have been poisoned/deprived of what he needed (diabetes after all and if he has late onset Type 1, which I suspect might be true, then it is an auto-immune disease and that complicates other physiological functionings (including, for example, also having celiac disease)? And I do not mean by Russia, especially not any of the government agencies (over here you'd think Mr V P had nowt else to do other than "meddle" in western elections and poison his compatriots).

What about a western agency, set up, what have you, interfering in some way with Navalny's physiological functioning in order to increase the pressure on Merkl....

What for? Nordstream 2.

How will she be able after this to carry on with that deal? Maybe it is a German government confabulation in order to give her the wiggle room to extricate herself from the Nordstream 2 deal and to fall into full compliance with US demands....

This is - of course - a "conspiracy theory" - but is it any more ridiculous than imaging, believing that Mr Putin and/or his admin ordered this? To what bloody end? How would it be useful? Not at all...

Posted by: AnneR | Aug 26 2020 13:15 utc | 140

@ Posted by: Circe | Aug 26 2020 13:10 utc | 139

Your hypothesis could be valid, if it wasn't for the fact that the Russian doctor who first took Navalny as a patient said that, in addition to the lab tests coming all negative, he also didn't show symptoms compatible with CI poisoning (see my previous comment here @ # 82, but I'll post here again):

"Additionally, Navalny lacked symptoms specific of the poisoning with cholinesterase inhibitors substances. As we said earlier, we are ready to share Alexey Navalny's samples with our German colleagues for examination," the health official [Sabayev] added.

The symptoms didn't match, and the lab results came negative. Every doctor in the same situation would exclude the diagnosis (in this case, of poisoning). Unless, of course, we begin to play Alice Through the Looking Glass and doubt every event we observe in the real world; in this case, we could doubt every doctor we visit in our annual check up routine, and always claim we were poisoned.

Posted by: vk | Aug 26 2020 13:20 utc | 141

@141 vk

So then why did they supposedly administer atropine which is the antidote to inhibitor poisoning?

He didn't show signs of inhibitor poisoning? And yet he was in severe respiratory failure with low cholinesterase. 🙄

You see, that's precisely why in a life-threatening medical emergency having a choice, I'll choose the German docs over the Siberian ones, even if the latter supposedly went through the motions of saving his life. But why the script doesn't jive with their actions is worthy of healthy skepticism.

Posted by: Circe | Aug 26 2020 13:51 utc | 142

Posted by: Circe | Aug 26 2020 13:10 utc | 139

You know, the Germans were one of the most efficient in handling the pandemic and containing deaths.

Check out the statistics, Germany 112 deaths per million, Russia 114. That is a less than 2% difference, USA 551 per million, that is a big difference.
As I said before, germans have good reputation, probably well earned, but we should not forget the XX century and its big wars. Their cars and anything that implies mechanics are the best, I learnt how to drive with a VW van, the one with collapsible windows as windshield ))) We could also talk about their optical equipment and Leica photography, but that is all mechanics, not politics.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Posted by: Paco | Aug 26 2020 13:54 utc | 143

Posted by: Circe | Aug 26 2020 13:10 utc | 139

You know, the Germans were one of the most efficient in handling the pandemic and containing deaths.

Check out the statistics, Germany 112 deaths per million, Russia 114. That is a less than 2% difference, USA 551 per million, that is a big difference.

Posted by: Paco | Aug 26 2020 14:01 utc | 144

@Circe

You assume things based on a handful of press releases, having gone through several translations, written by journalists having no particular knowledge of medical matters, and based on a few sentences from doctors which are bound by medical secret. It's a bit like trying to reconstruct an animal from a single bone, and you're no Cuvier.

The other assumption you seem to make is that German doctors would be immune to political pressure. That's a pretty tall order.

Posted by: Micron | Aug 26 2020 14:04 utc | 145

Posted by: AnneR | Aug 26 2020 13:15 utc | 140

Re NORDSTREAM2: Interesting idea, I do wonder what Merkel is up to, jumping on this "crisis" with Navalny. Seems unwise to me.

Posted by: Bemildred | Aug 26 2020 14:04 utc | 146

@ Posted by: Circe | Aug 26 2020 13:51 utc | 142

So then why did they supposedly administer atropine which is the antidote to inhibitor poisoning?

Because Atropine has a wide usage, not restricted to CI poisoning.

Posted by: vk | Aug 26 2020 14:08 utc | 147

The only reason I see why you poison a guy like this at the airport, right before he gets on the plane, while be monitored on video is because you either want him to die in Moscow or you don't want him to die in Tomsk. Seems either one could be handled in a more secure method. As in this case and the Salisbury case, the "victims" didn't didn't die so if it is directed poisoning it means the perpetrators are inept.

Posted by: Steve Roberts | Aug 26 2020 14:09 utc | 148

James and Jackrabbit
Since the agent is crap at killing anybody it should be called crapichok.

Posted by: Orage | Aug 26 2020 14:13 utc | 149

Orage @148

But... but novichok is "eight times as deadly as VX* nerve agent"!

*developed at Porton Down. It is just a coincidence. Really. Trust me.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 26 2020 14:35 utc | 150

At least one commenter here, on previous occasions, reported first hand that doctors may need years to arrive at a correct diagnosis. If a condition is unusual, they can figure out relatively quickly that this is an unusual condition, unless you are a commoner and then even that feeble conclusion may take a long time. And figuring out what and how may follow, but that is not guaranteed.

In a way, this is a good argument against "intelligent design" theory. Intelligent design should avoid adding a myriad of poorly documented features with unpredictable consequences and next to impossible to maintain. Such effects can be achieved by a horde of morons hired by, say, Google or Microsoft, but hardly by a benevolent Deity.

In any case, Navalny has unusual symptoms, and atropine was a medication used on the basis of those symptoms, without knowledge how those symptoms could take place. How to derive from that that "the West" must impose a series of sanctions against a certain state belongs not to medicine but to what Russian speakers call "polit-technology".

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Aug 26 2020 14:45 utc | 151

@ Posted by: Piotr Berman | Aug 26 2020 14:45 utc | 150

Intelligent design is not a theory. It is religious dogma disguised as theory.

No doctor ever takes intelligent design seriously (if they ever heard of it in the first place), ever had (or should) studied intelligent design in college or will do so in the future.

We know for a scientific fact that intelligent design is false. It's not up for dispute (never was). The debate between Evolution vs Intelligent Design is a political one, not a scientific one.

Posted by: vk | Aug 26 2020 14:52 utc | 152

Atropine is a drug of common use at ER and ICU... Not especially related to cholinesterasa inhibitors...

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Aug 26 2020 15:02 utc | 153

It's getting ugly to the Germans. Today, on Russian live TV, Omsk hospital’s Chief Physician Alexander Murakhovsky called their bluff again:

"We have asked for lab reports that indicated intoxication with cholinesterase inhibitors," he said.

Let's see if the Germans will give them. My guess is they will, as it is not difficult to falsify a blood sample. But it will be immediately caught by the Russian doctors, which will trigger an open propaganda war.

Posted by: vk | Aug 26 2020 15:12 utc | 154

Piotr Berman @150

Hey, those hordes of morons, hammering away on countless keyboards, brought us Mocrosoft Windows! It is predicted that within another million years they may even come up with coherent sentences.

As for "Intelligent Design", it is like "Flat Earth Theory" in that even its proponents don't really believe it. It is just a way to troll people on the Internet.

Likewise, posters like Circe must be trolling if they expect us to believe they are so stupid as to think Putin ordered a hit on Navalny and the entire Russia medical profession is in on it.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 26 2020 15:15 utc | 155

Things do not look as bright as a few days ago for the color-revolutionaries either. The Nobel laureate Alekseevich was summoned to court where she declined to declare against herself, she might be called again as witness since she did not attend the first meeting of the … don’t now how to call it, the junta of sorts based in Poland and lead by Guaidanovskaya. Aleksievich advised the ukrainians back in '17 to ban the russian language, curiously that is the language she wrote her books to obtain the Nobel, and sets the tone for the junta if it ever gets to govern.

The members of a Minsk theater were invited by Luka to experience the delights of freedom and free enterprise, go to the USA he said and keep performing, free market, if people go to see you and pay in dollars that’s what you’ve made. Luka does not look like another Yanukovich, and the red and white balloons are deflating.

Posted by: Paco | Aug 26 2020 15:21 utc | 156

1° According to Sputnik, Omsk Chief Toxicologist Alexander Sabayev said on Monday (24 August)

"Upon his admission to the [Omsk] hospital, Alexey Navalny was tested on a wide range of narcotics, synthetic substances, psychodiletics and medicinal substances, including cholinesterase inhibitors — all tests came back negative," Sabayev said in a press statement, as quoted by the Omsk Ministry of Health.
"Additionally, Navalny lacked symptoms specific of the poisoning with cholinesterase inhibitors substances. As we said earlier, we are ready to share Alexey Navalny's samples with our German colleagues for examination," the health official added.

2° I'm not very interested by the speculations of Dmitri Petrovsky, M.D., surgeon and deputy of the municipality of Yaroslavl, who, according to an article of Anastasiya Brotskaya (Ekonomika Segodnya, 24 August 2020), commented in this manner on the statement of German medics :

[QUOTE
"What they found in Navalny cholinesterase inhibitors after being in intensive care is normal. They should be in the man who was in intensive care and was on ventilator. And if the doctor finds them in the analysis of the person after a stay in the operating room and concludes that he was poisoned, then the conclusion is: either it is a political order, or an illiterate doctor," the expert said.
[/QUOTE

If Petrovsky is right, one should expect that the doctors from the Omsk hospital would say : "The symptoms of cholinesterase inhibitors observed by the Germa doctors are a consequence of the treatment we gave to the patient."

3° On 24 August, Sputnik had already quoted the Omsk hospital saying that tests for cholinesterase inhibitors were negative upon Nalvany's admission and that Navalny lacked symptoms specific of the poisoning with cholinesterase inhibitors substances. (See 1°.)
So, how is it that on August 25 Peskov said : "the fact of this lowered cholinesterase was established in the first hours by our doctors in a hospital in Omsk. And the atropine, which the Germans are talking about and which is now being given to the patient, began to be administered during the first hour of the patient's stay in intensive care."


Posted by: Inquirer | Aug 26 2020 15:36 utc | 157

It has been difficult for me to figure out how to best explain the implausibility of Russian state actors having anything to do with this to Americans, because the US media has so conditioned people to equating "Putin critic" with automatic motive, and the dastardliness of the Russian state is just a given.

It finally occurred to me to present it to people like this: You just heard Ralph Nadar was hospitalized. Is your first thought "oh, it must be the US deep state or CIA trying to sideline him?" No, of course not. He's a nobody who's somewhat dubious claim to fame was investigative work, later dabbling in politics, but certainly long past his "best by" date and hardly worthy of attention. Navalny is like that. Only I think Nadar actually polled quite a bit higher than Navalny, in his day.

Posted by: J Swift | Aug 26 2020 15:40 utc | 158

then the conclusion is: either it is a political order, or an illiterate doctor."
Posted by: Jen | Aug 25 2020 23:21 utc | 94

Fits Charité to a tee!

Posted by: BM | Aug 26 2020 15:56 utc | 159

i recommend a new ''military grade chemical agent" navalchok in honour of Alexey Navalny...
Posted by: james | Aug 26 2020 0:59 utc | 98

I assume you are referring to the tea, James? The question remains, though, whether Navalchok Tea has potential as a cosmetic ...

Posted by: BM | Aug 26 2020 16:00 utc | 160

@160

Go for Navalchok and register it, Petroff&Bashiroff® is a registered trade mark, they intended to sell perfumes, have’t heard how the business is going. Navalchock Norris in some markets…

Posted by: Paco | Aug 26 2020 16:07 utc | 161

The Germans are doubling down. It's officially Novichok part 2 now:

Die Kreml-Mär vom Komplott des Westens

The journalist - Christina Hebel - literally called all the Russian doctors involved liars and directly connected to the Kremlin. She also gives for certain Navalny was poisoned (with no argument).

Posted by: vk | Aug 26 2020 16:08 utc | 162

Lowered cholinesterase can be observed without any inhibitor being discovered. Some seem to be confused on this issue.

Posted by: T | Aug 26 2020 16:13 utc | 163

Meanwhile underneath the gaze of everyone's radar is the continuing rollout and emplacement of S-500 systems and the beginning of "already designed" S-600 production which will result in an genuinely efficient Star Wars Missile Shield for Eurasia. Also note that Russia still believes in and practices Civil Defense:

"Russia has built an extensive network of nuclear bomb shelters in big cities to protect at least 40 million people."

And recall Putin's latest announcement that any missile targeting Russia will be assumed to be a Nuke and retaliated in like manner. (The quotes are from Escobar's latest, which will emerge from behind the paywall in 24 hours or so at other sites.)

The German Mind is the puzzle here with its role in Belarus and now Navalny. Escobar briefly addresses this:

"Backdoor intel discussions made it very clear to German industrialists that if Germany ever lost its Russian source of oil and natural gas, and if the Strait of Hormuz were shut down by Iran in the event of an American attack, the German economy might simply collapse."

Navalny as a player in this Grand Game is no more than a pawn. As I wrote earlier, Russia and China are wise to the game tactics of their opposites and are being very concise and prepared to pick-off each lie as they're uttered--remember there's a Global Audience closely watching, and their futures will be affected by the outcome of this struggle.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 26 2020 16:29 utc | 164

Kim Jong-un Appears in Public, Deflating Media Claims of His ‘Comatose’ State

What a streak by North Korean medicine! Not happy with just reviving the dead, they now dominated the technology of reversing comas!

Christ who?

Navalny's family flew him to the wrong country!

Posted by: vk | Aug 26 2020 16:56 utc | 165

Ask Navalny's ophthalmologist why his cholinesterase is inhibited......

Posted by: number | Aug 26 2020 17:41 utc | 166

Some interesting observations...

(1) The west doesn't need any evidence. They are going after "highly likely", again

(2) Based on the Handelsblatt article, (that vk had posted?) this may now well be tied to an attempt to detail Nordstream 2

(3) The height of hypocrisy of the west on display again in two ways. The Der Spiegel article (previously referred to by vk) shamelessly accuses the Russian side for demanding evidence that Navalny was poisoned. Obviously the west is exceptional. For the west, it is up to Russia to provide evidence that it is innocent (instead of the accusing party having to provide an evidence) https://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/alexej-nawalny-die-kreml-maer-vom-komplott-des-westens-a-656101e7-e6fd-40be-9e9e-cb7bc3facc58

(4) The first question I would ask any news media or politician getting indignant about this case is, what have they done over the many years while the collective west has buried Julian Assange alive. Their indignation is hypocritical

Posted by: Nathan Mulcahy | Aug 26 2020 17:52 utc | 167

@J Swift (158) Ralph Nader is still revered in left wing circles in the U.S., but his influence is quite small at this point. He is 86 years old, but his mind remains very sharp. I was unaware that he is ill. If it is true, I wish him a speedy and complete recovery.

Posted by: Rob | Aug 26 2020 18:33 utc | 168

Obama/Biden ordered the assassination and MURDER by drone of American and non-Amurican citizens around the globe.

Obama/Biden acknowledged the US Regime (President Shrub and VP Vader-Cheney) ordered and oversaw TORTURE of prisoners and claimed there would be no prosecutions of torturing.

Trump/Pence ordered the assassination MURDER of Gen Soleimani.

Three back to back Presidents/VPs have all factually and historically committed MURDER and TORTURE. Crimes against Humanity, International and Constitutional Law.

Bush/Cheney Obama/Biden Trump/Pence should all have been prosecuted and in Prison for these factual crimes. Twenty Years (2000-2020) of Presidential Admins committing murder and torture !

Circe- rather than jumping up and down on your righteous American dildo hissing fabricated accusations on Putin, look in the mirror at your OWN Govts atrocities and proven crimes?

MOA- why not cover these historical AND factual crimes that have gone unanswered rather than ignoring them with the latest Fabrications from the same criminals?


Posted by: CitizenX | Aug 26 2020 18:44 utc | 169

The cholinesterase enzymes and sugar enzymes look to be both made in the liver.
https://iliveok.com/health/causes-increase-and-decrease-cholinesterase_84717i15974.html
https://www.britannica.com/science/metabolic-disease/Disorders-of-carbohydrate-metaboli

Navalny may have fried his liver as well as his brain (induced coma is often to prevent further brain damage).

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 26 2020 19:11 utc | 170

The liver also releases glucose into the blood - sugars absorbed by the gut move to the liver via the portal vein....

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 26 2020 19:20 utc | 171

Typical headline:

Alexei Navalny: Tests indicate Putin critic was poisoned, German doctors say

The doctors said they have not yet discovered which chemical but several tests at independent laboratories suggest it is a poison.

----------

One has to congratulate doctors, if they were quoted correctly, that they did not contemplate other possibilities like voodoo rituals or congenital condition. But it seems that they misused "scientific method". For example, one can establish a relationship between the size and depth of feet traces in the snow with the size and the weight of the individual who left them, and if the formula shows someone with the weight above 300 kg, there is only one logical answer: Sasquatch! But there are rare situations when traces in the snow get bigger over time.

Here is the level of an enzyme is consistent with the subject absorbing one of several known poisonous substances (typically, used in agriculture, lawn care etc.) and no traces of any one of these are present, the conclusion is not voodoo or unusual metabolism of the victim, but an unknown poison. Honestly, if some stuff like that would be submitted to a medical journal, an editor would write a properly caustic rejection (then again, when all the Furies of NATO are against it, perhaps the journal would sit on the issue without any opinion, or
write something weasely, not going as far as accepting it).

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Aug 26 2020 22:27 utc | 172

@ 120 circe... sorry circe.. i am with peter.. i think you need to get back on your meds! you have completely missed what is going on here..

@ 146 orage... ''crapichok'' is good too!

@161 bm - Navalchok Tea works as well... could be a british speciality!

Posted by: james | Aug 26 2020 22:42 utc | 173

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Posted by: Piotr Berman | Aug 26 2020 22:44 utc | 174

Peter AU 1 @ 125:

I do not think the Vedomosti report that B quotes and what Dmitri Petrovsky tells Journalist Pravda actually contradict each other. Bear in mind B is using a machine translation of the Vedomosti report and I was also quoting machine translations of the Ekonomiya Segodnya report @ 93 and the Journalist Pravda report @ 95.

When Navalny was admitted to the hospital in Omsk, he was given atropine among other medications as part of the toxicological tests run on him to rule out poisoning as a precaution, since his assistants claimed that he had been poisoned. Some of these medications may well have side effects on patients while they are in intensive case and are being intubated, so they must be given additional medication to counteract those side effects and those medicines may include other drugs that are also cholinesterase inhibitors or act like them.

So I think it would be incumbent on the doctors at "Charité" to say what cholinesterase inhibitors they found, that are the basis of the "poisoning" claims.

Like you, I am also suspicious of claims that Navalny was poisoned before boarding the plane in Tomsk that was to take him back to Moscow or during the plane trip. Navalny did have diabetes or borderline diabetes some time in the past two years. He apparently did not have anything to eat for some time before boarding the flight at Tomsk. As you and others here have said, he could have had cramping or seizures consistent with diabetic shock going into a coma.

Navalny is also said to be a regular cocaine user, enough to be considered a cocaine addict. He may be using other substances that are or which act like cholinesterase inhibitors to mitigate the side effects of using cocaine or mask his use of cocaine to avoid being arrested and charged with possession of illegal substances.

I Googled "cocaine" and "cholinesterase inhibitors" together and found references to Donepezil which is used to treat symptoms of Alzheimer's disease and Parkinson's disease, and also shows potential in treating symptoms of cocaine dependence.

Yukio Takamatsu et al, "Differential effects of donepezil on methamphetamine and cocaine dependencies"

Abstract

Donepezil, a choline esterase inhibitor, has been widely used as a medicine for Alzheimer's disease. Recently, a study showed that donepezil inhibited addictive behaviors induced by cocaine, including cocaine-conditioned place preference (CPP) and locomotor sensitization to cocaine. In the present study, we investigated the effects of donepezil on methamphetamine (METH)-induced behavioral changes in mice. In counterbalanced CPP tests, the intraperitoneal (i.p.) administration of 3 mg/kg donepezil prior to 2 mg/kg METH i.p. failed to inhibit METH CPP, whereas pretreatment with 3 mg/kg donepezil abolished the CPP for cocaine (10 mg/kg, i.p.). Similarly, in locomotor sensitization experiments, i.p. administration of 1 mg/kg donepezil prior to 2 mg/kg METH i.p. failed to inhibit locomotor sensitivity to METH, whereas pretreatment with 1 mg/kg donepezil significantly inhibited locomotor sensitivity to cocaine (10 mg/kg, i.p.). These results suggest that donepezil may be a useful tool for treating cocaine dependence but not for treating METH dependence. The differences in the donepezil effects on addictive behaviors induced by METH and cocaine might be due to differences in the involvement of acetylcholine in the mechanisms of METH and cocaine dependencies.

It's quite possible also that some of the symptoms Navalny was experiencing that led to his collapse and hospitalisation could be side effects of long-term cocaine use or symptoms of withdrawal (because he might not have taken cocaine for some time before boarding the plane). One side effect of cocaine use is loss of appetite which would be dangerous in someone who is diabetic or borderline diabetic.

Posted by: Jen | Aug 27 2020 0:04 utc | 175

@Jen 176

"Navalny is also said to be a regular cocaine user,"
The link on these words doesn't work.

Posted by: Inquirer | Aug 27 2020 7:47 utc | 176

US diplomats involved in trafficking of human blood and pathogens for secret military program


The US Embassy to Tbilisi transports frozen human blood and pathogens as diplomatic cargo for a secret US military program. Internal documents, implicating US diplomats in the transportation of and experimenting on pathogens under diplomatic cover were leaked to me by Georgian insiders. According to these documents, Pentagon scientists have been deployed to the Republic of Georgia and have been given diplomatic immunity to research deadly diseases and biting insects at the Lugar Center – the Pentagon biolaboratory in Georgia’s capital Tbilisi.

This military facility is just one of the many Pentagon biolaboratories in 25 countries across the world. They are funded by the Defense Threat Reduction Agency (DTRA) under a $ 2.1 billion military program – Cooperative Biological Engagement Program (CBEP), and are located in former Soviet Union countries such as Georgia and Ukraine, the Middle East, South East Asia and Africa. ******

In cases of importing to Russia, this biological material must be carried by diplomats in a diplomatic pouch and sealed as diplomatic cargo.

The Pentagon: Prostitutes strictly prohibited, no sex abroad

Other instructions to US personnel working under the military program prohibit the use of prostitutes, and any interaction with individuals who may reasonably be assumed to be working as prostitutes. ******

https://dilyana.bg/us-diplomats-involved-in-trafficking-of-human-blood-and-pathogens-for-secret-military-program/

Posted by: Alicia | Aug 27 2020 7:48 utc | 177

@Jen 176

Could you give a reference for these words : "Navalny is also said to be a regular cocaine user,"

Thanks in advance.

Posted by: Inquirer | Aug 27 2020 14:07 utc | 178

The US decision to blacklist Russian research institutes is a 'sanctions theater of the absurd,' Kremlin Spokesman Dmitry Peskov told reporters on Thursday.

"This is a follow-up to some sanctions dependence, a kind of the sanctions theater of the absurd," Peskov said, explaining that Washington is dependent on imposing sanctions and cannot live without sanctions and without declaring restrictions for anyone every day.

According to him, the Kremlin dismissed any claims that Russian organizations "could be behind developing chemical and biological weapons." "This is absolute nonsense. And given the scientific research of one of the institutes [which is engaged in developing Russia’s coronavirus vaccine] we cannot rule out that this is another example of uncovered and rampant non-competitive struggle," Peskov said.

The US Department of Commerce earlier blacklisted the 33rd Central Research and Testing Institute and the 48th Central Research Institute of the Russian Defense Ministry, as well as the Moscow State Research Institute of Organic Chemistry and Technology.

https://tass.com/politics/1194391

Posted by: Mao | Aug 27 2020 16:48 utc | 179

Navalny's Daughter Confirmed Her Father's Cocaine Use
https://www.stalkerzone.org/navalnys-daughter-confirmed-her-fathers-cocaine-use/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-Ev0O8S8D0

Posted by: Mao | Aug 27 2020 16:59 utc | 180

No elements of crime found during checks into Navalny’s hospitalization, says authority

If that's the case, then the substance (if it exists) was taken by Navalny himself, and flushed in the airplane's toilet.

If so, then there are only two realistic possibilities:

1) the cocaine addiction is true;

2) it was a propaganda coup.

Most likely, though, is the Russian doctor is telling the truth: he took nothing and, because of this, had a severe hypoglycemic episode.

Posted by: vk | Aug 27 2020 17:24 utc | 181

vk "Most likely, though, is the Russian doctor is telling the truth: he took nothing and, because of this, had a severe hypoglycemic episode."

The Russian doctors have said they do not know what caused the combination of clinical symptoms Navalny was showing. The symptoms that have been made public to date is hypoglycemia, low cholinesterase, and a carbohydrate metabolic disorder.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 27 2020 17:46 utc | 182

@ Lurk | Aug 25 2020 20:18 utc | 76

The long delay between administration of the poison and the onset of effects AND the apparent nonlethatity are clear evidence of novichok.

That must have actually been 'novichoklat'.

Now Case closed.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Aug 27 2020 20:29 utc | 183

Inquirer @ 179:

Sorry for my tardiness, I just got up now, early morning here in Sydney. I see Mao @ 181 has found the Stalker Zone link you are asking for.

Posted by: Jen | Aug 27 2020 20:40 utc | 184

The funniest part in all of it is how Russians allegedly poisoning everybody with the most horrific substances known to man, and yet almost nobody actually ends up dead. MI-6 and CIA need to fix that.

Posted by: Venom | Aug 28 2020 4:16 utc | 185

AnneR #140

Thank you and I agree that it is a plausible theory. Time will tell as Merkel is not a trustworthy person and is in DEEP strife at home.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 28 2020 4:31 utc | 186

CitizenX #170

Bravo and very well expressed :))

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 28 2020 5:02 utc | 187

AnneR @ 140:

I agree with Uncle Tungsten @ 187. Your notion is not silly at all, indeed I should think of all the people most likely to want to throw Navalny under the proverbial bus, those he should most fear are those he trusts.

Posted by: Jen | Aug 28 2020 6:03 utc | 188

Posted by: james | Aug 26 2020 22:42 utc | 174 -- "Navalchok Tea works as well... could be a british speciality!"

Yuppp, tea has never been the same since the bloody brits first stole tea plants from China.


Posted by: kiwiklown | Aug 28 2020 7:03 utc | 189

More news about Navalny....

Russ. anti-gov. TV Rain said that when the flight from Tomsk with Navalny on board was about to land in Omsk, some people twice called&said that Omsk airport "had a bomb", allegedly to stop the plane from landing https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZpsXc2luOvo Who knew that the plane was to land there?

https://twitter.com/elenaevdokimov7/status/1299549616023564291

Hmmm....The person/persons who were travelling with Navalny...hmm...concretely the one who brought to him the cup of tea?

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Aug 29 2020 19:25 utc | 190

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