Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 25, 2020

The Back And Forth About Navalny's 'Poisoning'

The case of the alleged 'poisoning' of the Russian rabble rouser Alexey Navalny is becoming more curious.

Navalny fell ill on August 20 during a flight from Tomsk in Siberia to Moscow. The plane made an emergency landing in Omsk where he was transferred to a hospital. Navalny fell into a coma. The doctors diagnosed a sharp drop in his blood sugar. Navalny has diabetes and his symptoms as described were consistent with a diabetic shock. We therefore (somewhat prematurely) concluded that Navalny was not poisoned.

After a day and a half in the Omsk hospital the patient stabilized. On request of his family he was flown to Berlin and admitted to the Charité hospital. The Charité is a very large (14,000 employees) state run university clinic that is leading in many medical fields. Its laboratories found effects consistent with the ingestion of, or contact with, a cholinesterase inhibitor:

Following his admission, Mr. Navalny underwent extensive examination by a team of Charité physicians. Clinical findings indicate poisoning with a substance from the group of cholinesterase inhibitors. The specific substance involved remains unknown, and a further series of comprehensive testing has been initiated. The effect of the poison – namely, the inhibition of cholinesterase in the body – was confirmed by multiple tests in independent laboratories.

As a result of this diagnosis, the patient is now being treated with the antidote atropine.

Cholinesterase is needed in the human nerve system to break down acetylcholine which is a signaling substance between synapses. Inhibitors of cholinesterase are used in the therapy of Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, anxiety disorder and other illnesses. Cholinesterase inhibitors can be found in certain plant extracts or synthesized. There are two types of cholinesterase inhibitors, carbamates and organophosphates. Both types are also widely used as pesticides. During World War II organophosphates were developed as chemical weapons (tabun, sarin, soman) but not widely used.

The wording of the Charité statement seems to imply that the laboratory results point to the potential effects of a cholinesterase inhibitors, not to a specific substance itself. This is consistent with a statement by the clinic in Omsk which insists that no cholinesterase inhibitors, i.e a 'poison', were found:

“When Alexey Navalny was admitted to the in-patient clinic, he was examined for a wide range of narcotics, synthetic substances, psychedelic drugs and medical substances, including cholinesterase inhibitors. The result was negative,” said Sabayev, chief of the acute poisoning unit at the Omsk emergency care hospital where Navalny was treated before being airlifted to Germany.

“Besides, he did not have a clinical picture, specific for poisoning with substances from the group of cholinesterase inhibitors,” Sabayev, who is also the top toxicologist in the Omsk Region and the Siberian Federal District, added.

We can be quite sure that a trained toxicologist would recognize a Cholinergic crisis. There is however a documented case from India in which an organophosphate poisoning was falsely interpreted as diabetic ketoacidosis (hat tip Bernd Neuner):

We present a 15-year-old girl who was initially treated for “diabetic ketoacidosis” with further worsening of her general condition. This delayed recovery, coupled with focused investigations, finally led us to a diagnosis and the appropriate management of an intentional overdose with organophosphorous (OP) pesticide, presenting as diabetic ketoacidosis.

But according to Kremlin spokesman Dimitry Peskov the Russian doctors made the right diagnosis and applied the correct therapy (machine translation):

The statement by German doctors on the diagnosis of FBK founder Alexei Navalny is nothing new for Russian specialists, Dmitry Peskov, press secretary of the Russian President, told reporters.

“We have not yet learned anything new from this statement. We specifically contacted our doctors and asked how, from a professional point of view, we can relate to what was written. The fact is that the fact of this lowered cholinesterase was established in the first hours by our doctors in a hospital in Omsk. And the atropine, which the Germans are talking about and which is now being given to the patient, began to be administered during the first hour of the patient's stay in intensive care,” said Peskov.

The presidential spokesman stressed that the level of cholinesterase may decrease for a variety of reasons, including from taking a number of medications. At the same time, German doctors did not identify a toxic substance in Navalny's analyzes.

“Therefore, it is very important here to find out what caused the decrease in cholinesterase levels. And neither our doctors, nor the Germans have yet been able to establish the cause. At least, this follows from the statement of our German doctors' colleagues. There is no substance, unfortunately, it cannot be established, analyzes do not show it,” Peskov explained.

He stressed that the analytical data of Russian and German doctors are the same, but the conclusions are different.

“We do not understand why our German colleagues are in such a hurry, using the word “poisoning”. You know, this version was among the first that our doctors considered, but I repeat once again: the substance has not yet been established. Maybe the Germans have some data,” said Peskov, noting that Russian doctors are ready to provide samples of the first tests.

If Navalny was poisoned - which is not established - the next question must be how Navalny came into contact with a cholinesterase inhibitor. Was the contact caused by himself or by someone else? Was it intentionally or unintentionally?

Navalny's spokeswomen has insisted that the only substance Navalny ingested that morning was a tea from an airport bar. A CCTV video from the airport shows that the tea was brought from the bar by a person that then sits down with Navalny. They presumably traveled together. How would the airport barkeeper, if he supposedly poisoned Navalny, knew for whom the tea was?

As 'western' media continue with their "Putin poisoned Navalny" nonsense it is important to again point out that other people have more reason to harm Navalny than the Kremlin does:

During the last years Navalny has made some enemies by uncovering corruption cases. His latest one was about the local governor of Tomsk. It was also the reason why he had flown there. Should Navaly become the victim of a crime the suspects should be sought there.

Posted by b on August 25, 2020 at 11:57 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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the poison theory constructors are creating a colorful james bond style movie script.
It captures the imagination. If the exciting, easily visualised, movie script is solidly imprinted in the imagination, then dull, tedious, evidence based reality doesn't get a look-in.

Posted by: mijj | Aug 25 2020 12:19 utc | 1

The India girl case is an interesting case if you're a doctor, but it is too over the top to claim they are common. The important thing to consider here is that the Russian doctor who treated him (and saved his life) discarded that possibility.

It is only the doctor that can diagnose his/her patient. Hunting for exotic cases around the world is not diagnosis.

Besides, this doesn't explain the almost immediate poisoning accusation by Merkel and then, the next day (today), by top EU ideologue Josep Borrell. The German State (at least the BND) must be involved - the fact that the Charité is owned by the State itself only strengthens this hypothesis.

Posted by: vk | Aug 25 2020 12:39 utc | 2

Here's food for thought:

German economy contracts at record pace, recovery hinges on consumers

The numbers consolidate last month's preview. It's bad, and Germany is officially in an economic depression (2009-2020).

Uniting this data with my previous speculation on the "Prussian" and the "double-header" hypotheses, I'm inclined to think the Belarus-Navalny operations are a gambit by the EU to expand further to the East (Russia) and, ultimately, to dispute with China over the control of Eurasia in the 21st/22nd Centuries.

Posted by: vk | Aug 25 2020 12:47 utc | 3

Why is Peskov putting out statements????

This is an issue that should be handled at arms length from the president .

After all Navslny is a nobody and should be treated as such

Get some third string person to respond to this nonsense.

No one but Navalny / his family and his handlers care about this issue

Posted by: Jane2 | Aug 25 2020 12:49 utc | 4

I am a great fan of MOA, a refugee from ZH which is now an almost unreadable and tainted by its anti-China drumbeat.

However, with all due respect I find that our host tends to come to conclusions a bit too quickly... Navalny could well have been poisoned, but by whom? Guaido and her female clone Tikhanovskaya better watch out - their handlers in the CIA may see them more useful as martyrs than as "legitimate opposition".

As for other topics, I also find b to have way, way too quickly dismissed the Beirut blast as anything other than AM.
As in, too quickly because the ramifications were too terrible to contemplate, as in the ascendence of unspeakable evil on the part of the shitty little state. As to whether the blast was nuclear or conventional, that is a minor point.

Posted by: gadzooks | Aug 25 2020 12:57 utc | 5

While it is rumored that the method of choice for assisinations of Western intelligence services are car accidents the prefered Soviet/Russian method ist said to be poison.

And that makes sence. If it is done correctly you get pretty much the picture you habe with Navalny. A sudden worsening of medical condition, a lot of suspicion and speculation and no conclusive evidence.

Indeed, in the 1920s-1050s there were a number of high Soviet officials - including both Lenin and Stalin - who spontaneously broke down and died or became terminally ill out of the sudden.

Is there any statistical material how often people in Russia break down with a diabetes shock and end up in coma? How likely is this?

And what do you mean by "not widely used"? To my knowledge tabun, sarin and soman where not used at all during World War II. I think soman has even never been used in combat at all.

Posted by: m | Aug 25 2020 12:58 utc | 6

Kremlin sees no grounds to launch criminal probe into Navalny’s condition

"If the substance is established and if it is established that this is poisoning, then, of course, this will be a cause for investigation," he [Press Secretary Dmitry Peskov] said.

Posted by: vk | Aug 25 2020 13:03 utc | 7

Someone on the web (might even be here) mentioned that cholinesterase inhibitors can be used against Cocaine dependence. Is this true or not? I do not have any other information and I am not a Medecin/doctor or user. But these days I am naturally cynical about any "official" statements, whoever makes them.

This (anti-cocaine use) might equally be "disinformation", but with its' widespread use in "elite" circles, it is not inconcievable. Navalny being in the toilets rather than having an immediate reaction to the tea at the airport, could be an indication that something happened in there.

Posted by: Stonebird | Aug 25 2020 13:10 utc | 8

This is what I put in an email..........
Alert! It is with great concern and sorrow ………… And to everyone’s Fears and Horror and with solemn disappointment it has been announced…….Alexei Navalny was not Poisoned!
His Team and closest Aids refuse to give up on Alexei and believe the Germans are in cahoots with the Russians to deny their Leader, the “Celebrity Status” of being one more of those Poisoned by Putin!
The Germans have gone so far as to say …The Russian Doctors saved his life and all they found was the chemical residue of the poor quality Airport plastic cups on his clothes and in his stomach.
Which is what you would expect from a Country and a Madman who doesn’t follow …. Rules Based Order?
In reality this amounts to a careless disregard by any other means to poison people such as a “Freedom fighter” who exhibits the selfless qualities of self-denial to fast in times of Stress!
If it had not been for our Leader to have had nothing since the previous evening but a plastic cup of tea laced with manufacturing chemicals who knows what would have happened?
By chance he may have not passed out if he had eaten some Borscht. or Pelmeni and Putin would have gloated in any event, waiting for the next opportunity!

It’s to be hoped the Germans having spent all Angela Merkle’s money going all the way to Omsk and back to Berlin with a Military Ambulance from the Airport to “THE ONLY” Hospital worth a peanut…….
……. Would do more than, only to lose their nerve and succumb to the wiles of Putin.
But that’s what you’re up against?
Someone who spends his time riding horses in the wild without his clothes on and walking about as if he’s Peter Sellers marching?
A man so powerful that in 20 years of having his arse on the same seat everyone want’s to polish it…The seat?
So you have to take your hat off to Alexi because in the same time what he has to show is a Conviction with his brother for embezzling $300,000 from a French Perfume Manufacturer.
A referral, (in an investigation into a Logging Company where he was the Legal Consultant to the Authority selling the Timber.), to be investigated for excessive fees .
Inciting an Illegal Demonstration calling out everyone in a City of 15Million and 4 to 6 thousand turned up blocked the main Freeway through Moscow and the police let those they arrested (20-40) go?
Set up a Charitable Foundation which he recently closed down and now investigated for over $1Million+ not appearing to have receipts?
And he can’t get a successful poisoning recognised?
All I can say is ……..He’s got Balls?
And as he says?............. He’s a Corruption Fighter? But he didn’t say which side?

I would have taken the Perfume money myself and thought I was on a winner?

William Kierath.

Posted by: William Kierath | Aug 25 2020 13:10 utc | 9

The Russians caused the hurricanes in the Gulf of Mexico in a plot to meddle with the U.S. elections by causing disruptions in Texes which may vote Democrat in November. Considering this it is plausible to think Putin poisoned Nav' in an attempt to take over the world.

Posted by: Robert | Aug 25 2020 13:21 utc | 10

why is a diabetic person only drinking tea for breakfast? Upon rising from sleep, your blood sugar levels are at their lowest because you've effectively been fasting all night. Breakfast = break fast. The first thing a diabetic needs to do upon waking is eating something to increase their blood sugar levels. Very strange. I don't know any diabetics who skip breakfast, or any other meal for that matter.

Posted by: M. Sciet | Aug 25 2020 13:50 utc | 11

From 3/3 on twitter thread:

https://twitter.com/elenaevdokimov7/status/1298208566281527296

3/3 Though a doctor from another region of Russia, who did not treat Navalny, wrote that in his practice, cholinesterase inhibitors Proserin &Ubretid are allegedly widely used to prevent disorders developing in patients placed on mechanical ventilation.

Posted by: mpn | Aug 25 2020 13:52 utc | 12

Posted by: vk | Aug 25 2020 12:39 utc | 2

Josep Borrell as the top ideologue of the EU is overestimating a gray functionary belonging to the Felipe González group, a group that somehow preceded the false center left of Blair in the UK or Clinton in the USA. From that same group of politicians that first campaigned against Spain joining NATO back in the ‘80s with the slogan “De entrada no”, something like to start with NO, well one of those socialists later became NATO’s secretary general and lead the organization during its sinister days of the Yugoslavia bombings, handsomely rewarded monetarily later became Mister Pesc, a strange definition for the sort of foreign minister of the EU, the place than Borrell has been rewarded with nowadays, which means he has rendered the required services to the empire. Those guys true ideology is personal advancement and nothing else, so it kind of sounds funny to think he is the top ideologue of the EU, but then again, he could be, which is a true mesure of what the EU is worth politically, a pitiful colony.

Posted by: Paco | Aug 25 2020 13:59 utc | 13

Yes, the governor of Tomsk, biochemist by night, governor by day, knowing that Navalny is diabetic and that a certain pesticide can produce a toxic shock that mimics insulin shock, spiked the latter's tea...😉

It's really so convenient that Navalny is a diabetic and therefore there's that pesky plausible deniability, or, insidious criminal genius at play. Now who excels at plausible deniability in the commission of crimes, hmmm 🤔????

Oh, that's right! Zionists, Russians and Americans. Now, which of these had motive?

Definitely, Russians. Probably an intelligence service that excels in committing crimes with plausible deniability.

29155?

But spiking the teapot, again? That's kind of sloppy.

You know, there was a time when I actually liked Putin, thinking he was a gobal monopoly spoiler, but he since hangs with too many Zionists, and has become a bird of a feather. So screw him.

Posted by: Circe | Aug 25 2020 14:07 utc | 14

Stonebird @8: Cholinesterase inhibitors for cocaine addiction

Note that this is an off-label use of cholinesterase inhibitors, so an American doctor would not likely prescribe it. Someone who has a supply of cocaine sufficient enough to become an addict, on the other hand, probably would not have difficulty obtaining a cholinesterase inhibitor like Galantamine, though. Navalny's CIA/State Department handlers who keep him in coke could probably get him anything he asked for, though if I were in his shoes I wouldn't put anything from them up my nose.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 25 2020 14:14 utc | 15

For some reason RT seems to have gone rogue

When commenting on the Berlin diagnosis, Peskov noted that the German medical analysis “is absolutely the same” as that in Russia, but “the conclusions differ.” Doctors from Omsk have denied the presence of the inhibitor.

Basically, Russia does not care. Same seems to be the case with Belarus.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 25 2020 14:25 utc | 16

@9 William Kierath

And after all that, your point is?

Never mind. Once was enough.

Posted by: Circe | Aug 25 2020 14:26 utc | 17

Circe 14

Have you seen any proof anywhere that Navalny is a diabetic. Something that was said or written before the current drama?

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 25 2020 14:30 utc | 18

@18 Peter AU1

No actually, I first found out about his diabetes here, and I only assumed that our host had the facts on Navalny's diabetic condition.

Posted by: Circe | Aug 25 2020 14:36 utc | 19

Posted by: vk | Aug 25 2020 12:47 utc | 3

Unlikely. Europe hardly survived WW2. Russia plus China are a lot of people to make angry.

It's more likely some projects continuing because someone has forgotten to stop them or because they still have got money left. You would have to carry Europe to fight and even then they would not fight.

As is, Europe's south has been bought up by Chinese investment. They invest strategically not for short term returns.

Noone will climb a tree before knowing the results of US elections.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 25 2020 14:49 utc | 20

There is however a documented case from India in which an organophosphate poisoning was falsely interpreted as diabetic ketoacidosis

So what? Doctors make false diagnoses all the time. It is called medical error. A significant proportion of deaths in hospitals worldwide are due to medical error. India? Now, if somebody is going to suggest that medical error never happens in India I am going to say either they are a liar or an idiot. Medical errors also happen in German hospitals, by the way, including Charité - plenty of them! Including both with and without intent.

This whole Navalny "poisoning" fantasy stinks to high heaven. It differs very little in essential essence from the Skripal fantasy so far, and I am quite sure it is headed on the same path.

Posted by: BM | Aug 25 2020 15:00 utc | 21

But have we missed a point here? Is this not just trying to round the anti-Russia circle started by the Skripal poisoning? Will not everyone now assume that Navalny was poisoned with Novichok and that this proves beyond doubt that this is the preferred way for getting rid of Kremlin enemies? You don't really have to prove anything more, it is now all out there, like Russia gate, the dog whistle has been blown.

Posted by: Orage | Aug 25 2020 15:16 utc | 22

Somebody 16
The findings of low cholineesterase was the same in Omsk and Berlin but the conclusions are different. There is no problem here.

Posted by: Orage | Aug 25 2020 15:19 utc | 23

@ BM (21)

Re: "This whole Navalny "poisoning" fantasy stinks to high heaven. It differs very little in essential essence from the Skripal fantasy so far, and I am quite sure it is headed on the same path."

I agree completely. The whole script is so old and tired one would have to have spent the last few decades living under a rock not to see through it, throw enough shit and hope some of it sticks. It is probably just another ploy to put pressure on the German government to cancel Nordstream 2.

Posted by: MarkU | Aug 25 2020 15:21 utc | 24

An accompaniment to b's excellent analyses of the novichokked navalny:

Cartalucci: 'Poisoned' Kremlin Critic Flown to Germany as German-Russian Nord Stream 2 Nears Completion

https://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2020/08/poisoned-kremlin-critic-flown-to.html

Posted by: John Gilberts | Aug 25 2020 15:36 utc | 25

thanks b....

@ Jane2 | Aug 25 2020 12:49 utc | 4 quote "No one but Navalny / his family and his handlers care about this issue"

i guess you thought the same about the skripal case too.... unfortunately you are not a keen observer of geo politics...

Posted by: james | Aug 25 2020 15:57 utc | 26

@ 21 bm... just seeing your comment... i have said exactly the same the past few days...

Posted by: james | Aug 25 2020 15:58 utc | 27

Circe 19

In his previous Navalny article, b referenced this in the update.
https://www.intellinews.com/doctors-deny-navalny-poisoned-but-refuse-to-let-him-leave-190208/
"Navalny said himself that he suffered from diabetes in 2019, giving some credence to this explanation."

This is the source a few other articles on the net also quote from, but where did it come from. I spent some time searching for other earlier references to Navalny having diabetes but could not find any.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 25 2020 15:59 utc | 28

HA! Peter, I was just about to post this when you beat me to it....

Peter AU1, come in Peter...

Navalny has diabetes and his symptoms as described were consistent with a diabetic shock.

The source of b's statement is BNE IntelliNews as he linked in previous article on Navalny. He and article both state Navalny admitted to this in 2019. Which begs the question: Where is Navalny's actual quote?

From BNE article: Navalny said himself that he suffered from diabetes in 2019, giving some credence to this explanation.

intellinews

*********

Did you also come across this article I came across while trying to find proof of Navalny's condition.:

diabetic-activist-claims-russian-authorities-denied-him-insulin-as-punishment

Unlike Navalny and Litvenenko, he prefers coffee to tea.

Just kidding:)

Posted by: Circe | Aug 25 2020 16:14 utc | 29

Circe 29

Yep. That turned up in my searches.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 25 2020 16:17 utc | 30

@vk #3
Why do you believe that the EU and/or Germany wish to expand eastward when their economy is in deep recession and they already have 45 million Ukrainians for cheap labor?
I would note that even East Germany is lagging West Germany in terms of economic progress since reunification, which itself was incredibly expensive.
Ukraine isn’t a great example either of neither economic progress nor contributing integration into the EU.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 25 2020 16:20 utc | 31

From southfront:
The air travel between Russia and Germany is mostly suspended due to coronavirus limitations. The flight to Germany was organized by the Berlin-based Cinema for Peace Foundation. The flight was paid by businessman Boris Zimin. Boris Zimin is the son of Dmitry Zimin – the founder of VimpelCom (Beeline telecommunications brand).

PJSC VimpelCom is the third-largest wireless and second-largest telecom operator in Russia. It is wholly owned by VEON Ltd. through which it is linked to Mikhail Fridman, Russian Western-linked business magnate. Fridman’s Alfa Group Consortium is among the main shareholders of VEON Ltd.

These persons and entities represent the Russian influence group linked to the global finance. The very same group has links and support work of think tanks affiliated with the Higher School of Economics, the center of the Alma Mater of the liberal economic block of the Russian government. Moscow Mayor Sergey Sobanin and Chairwoman of the Bank of Russia Elvira Nabiullina also could be considered a part of the global finance in Russia.

In Russian media, this network of Western-linked persons, organizations, influence groups and top officials is often described as the ‘liberal tower’ of the Kremlin. Thus, despite the image of the opposition figure, Navalny receives support from the highest levels of the Russian governance and business systems.

Posted by: Gary | Aug 25 2020 16:35 utc | 32

c1ue @31

Capitalists are desperate for markets, not cheap labor.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 25 2020 16:37 utc | 33

@ Posted by: c1ue | Aug 25 2020 16:20 utc | 31

1) the plan was never to make the DDR prosperous. On the contrary: too much people living prosperously is damaging to capitalist expansion;

2) that's the pattern of recent EU expansion, with the latest great batch of new members coming from ex-Yugoslavia and the Iron Curtain (why not, for example, insisting on the accession of Norway and Switzerland, which are much richer and culturally alike countries?);

3) besides the huge pool of cheap and relatively well-educated labor power (which can be imported to Germany proper, thus rising unemployment rates, thus eroding the power of the mighty German unions), there's the pot of gold of the old communist infrastructure (water, electricity, communications, education, healthcare), which is already centralized and thus would result in monopolistic rent for the German capitalists who will inevitably buy them in a privatization process (as happened with Slovakia);

4) Belarus is the natural springboard to invade Russia, thus increasing Germany's leverage within NATO.

Posted by: vk | Aug 25 2020 16:45 utc | 34

William Gruff | Aug 25 2020 14:14 utc | 15

Thanks for the reply. - Even if Navalny was suffering from a "manque" of his favourite substance, the Germans and others would not mention it. He would not have had (much ?) trace in his blood either.

Posted by: Stonebird | Aug 25 2020 16:58 utc | 35

Navalny had nothing on the plane as the flight had just taken off. Witnesses say he started feeling ill right after takeoff and went to lavatory and was in groaning and screaming pain. So are you in screaming pain when you have hypoglycemic shock and wouldn't you cry out for something sweet or candy if you knew you had diabetes and were in insulin shock?

Posted by: Circe | Aug 25 2020 17:05 utc | 36

Circe

I linked a video from the plane in the last thread. He wasn't screaming in pain. He was making a load noise that carried through the plane and I thought is was for show after hitting himself up with something in the toilet.
From what I've read though, the stage before hypoglycemic coma can be loss of awareness. The mind is gone but the body can still move and make noises.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 25 2020 17:22 utc | 37

Esteemed B, I am still waiting for a source reference for Navalnys diabetes. It is still important to get the information confirmed. His environment says that he did not consume anything except the tea. That would be a very risky behavior for a diabetic in itself.
Whether a diabetic shock can be ruled out due to the cholinesterase problem, which can probably be considered certain after it has been confirmed by two hospitals, I cannot judge. You seem to assume that.
The way Merkel and other politicians immediately jumped on the poisoning thesis is reminiscent of May's reaction in the Skripal case. It is difficult not to become suspicious.

Posted by: pnyx | Aug 25 2020 17:25 utc | 38

I am sure there are more effective ways to assassinate a diabetic man. Who ever did it is an amateur.

Posted by: Virgile | Aug 25 2020 17:25 utc | 39

I dwell on the words Navalny spoke in Tomsk to his crew, about him becoming a martyr and it not helping Putin, then his trauma on the following day. Yes, the observation about the tea at the airport is of great importance. The time between its ingestion and boarding the plane is similarly important IF he was administered a toxic agent via that tea. And if he's diabetic or even pre-diabetic, there's a suite of meds he'd need to take daily if not requiring insulin, and those meds must be ingested with food--I know.

I imagine all security camera footage of his time at Tomsk airport has been scrutinized, the result being the Kremlin's ruling no investigation's warranted. That decision's good enough for me.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 25 2020 17:26 utc | 40

karlof1

navalny's words the day before about being a hero if Putin killed him is I think key. Russia seems to produce a few Rasputin types - like the clown that nailed his balls to the pavement.
Seen some photos of Navalny when he was younger and his eyes looked normal. Those wide open staring eyes in selfies and so forth in recent years give more than a hint of madness.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 25 2020 17:32 utc | 41

I agree with Karlof1. If Navalny is diabetic, he seems a bit careless to me to just drink a tea all morning. He should eat something according to his diet and probably take some meds as well (if the disease isn't at a very early stage).

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Aug 25 2020 17:37 utc | 42

@ Gadzooks 5

Nuclear or conventional ‘ a minor point ‘.

That has to be one of the most absurd, ill considered and ridiculous comments I’ve ever read.

IF the explosion had been caused by a nuclear weapon, the world would very possibly be in a Niclear winter right now.

Not to mention there wouldn’t be much of Lebanon and surrounding area left...

Posted by: Beibdnn | Aug 25 2020 17:38 utc | 43

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 25 2020 17:32 utc | 41

To compare Pavlensky to Rasputin is not proportional. The monk was the victim of the British services and has been thoroughly discredited and demonized, by the same guys that killed him. Check out the movie about Rasputin’s life with no other than Gerard Depardieu. Rasputin had the Tsarina’s ear and he was against Russia going to war, the first world war, and that was the main motive to eliminate him.
Pavlensky on the other hand is a freak useful to the empire propaganda on a condom basis, use and throw away, just like the Pussy Riots, always referred to as the punk group, a group that never issued a first album, save for a couple of clips on youtube after leaving Russia. Freaks of that caliber are a dime a dozen everywhere, but since they are useful to discredit Russia, well then they are endowed with media attention, and even Hillary receiving one of the Riots member, Tolokonnikova, the one that being pregnant engaged in a public orgy, another one of the group hits was introducing a frozen chicken into a members vagina. Pavlensky was hailed as a hero for burning the FSB building entrance door, the feared Lyubianka. He tried the same trick with the gates of the Bank of France, and he was sent to a psychiatric ward, with no media noise at all. If that would have occurred back in Moscow we would be still hearing and reading about psychiatric torture back to the good old days of the Soviet Union.

Posted by: Paco | Aug 25 2020 17:50 utc | 44

Russia did it. Evil Putin ordered it. Horrible China sponsored it. Iran backed it. Hezbollah played a hand as well.

Thank Glorious God for the Indispensable Nation of American Exceptionalism. Rescuing the world from evil dictators and conspiring theorists plots. Evil doers who hate OUR way of life stand no chance against the Glorious Christians and their Honorable Zionist gatekeepers.

Thanks and Glory to American Gods that Juan Guaido is now the President of Venezuela. Soon the Zionist will offer their Chosen Ones to replace Evil Dictators.

Thanks and praise to MOA for shining Gods Light and dancing on Western narratives giving them validity against the Evil doers of Poison and injustice.

Trump and Pence are "Men of the Bible" seeking out injustice and filling the world with Christian values of Bro Love and world Peace. May all you Christians take a knee and pray for these Mens souls and the Soul of America for leading the way to righteousness. Oh yeah- and pray for whatever the fuck his name is Nirvany Nalvinny poisoned guy.

Posted by: CitizenX | Aug 25 2020 17:52 utc | 45

Peter, I saw the video and he's howling in pain.

Posted by: Circe | Aug 25 2020 17:53 utc | 46

Tactical nuclear weapons can have yields as low as 10 tons of TNT, approximately a thousandth of the yield of the Hiroshima bomb.

Posted by: lysias | Aug 25 2020 17:56 utc | 47

Diabetes is insulin deficiency. Mild cases controlled by diet - carbohydrate intake and exercise matched to the amount of insulin the body produces.
Next stage is oral medication which (I think) increase body production of insulin. Next stage insulin injections. In these cases carbohydrate intake and exercise also has to be matched to the insulin levels. No carbohydrates and artificial insulin level does not compensate which results in hypoglycemia. Undiagnosed diabetic or diabetic not taking meds would mostly have high blood sugar levels.

Doctors are not giving a lot out, but most of what has occurred matches with deliberate insulin overdose, which would be particularly severe in a non diabetic.

Did the Doctors check blood insulin levels? They seem to have been fairly thorough. The Russian doctors at the start looked to toxins as the cause for the readings they were getting but none showed up. A conference of Russian doctors decided the most probable cause of the various issues (carbohydrate metabolism disorder and I take it the cholinesterase problem) was the sharp drop in blood sugar levels.
The clown is being kept in an induced coma which means he has fried whatever he has for a brain to some extent.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 25 2020 18:05 utc | 48

they like to reuse the same propaganda memes over and over. russian bounties to the taliban become iranian bounties to the taliban, novichok becomes cholinesterase inhibitor, rinse and repeat.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Aug 25 2020 18:19 utc | 49

Beibdnn @43

The blast in Beirut was bigger than that generated by some tactical nuclear weapons. Dramatically larger devices were tested regularly back before the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty was signed by the major nuclear powers, and those devices did not trigger nuclear winter. It would take a significant exchange of strategic scale devices by nuclear powers, say a hundred or two devices of 50kt or larger, to trigger a nuclear winter.

In fact, the physical damage observed in Beirut is not much different from what you would expect from a "bunker buster" tactical nuclear weapon. We're not talking Tsar Bomba here, after all.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 25 2020 18:20 utc | 50

Source for Navalny being a diabetic may be buried in another language.
Amazing how much of the internet is relatively dark because it isn't translated.

Posted by: PleaseBeleafMe | Aug 25 2020 18:22 utc | 51

Circe 46

A lot of people suffer pain. The noise he was making was either theatrical or his mind was gone.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 25 2020 18:26 utc | 52

@48 Peter AU1

Stop with that shet. Every source I checked described him as screaming or howling in pain. I watched and he's crying out in pain, period! Don't try to tell me it's sunny when it's pouring rain.

Crying out like that is not symptomatic of hypoglycemic shock!

Something else is going on and you know it, but hate to admit the truth.

This has all the marks of poison and foul play.

Posted by: Circe | Aug 25 2020 18:30 utc | 53

You're a true nutter circe if you are going to believe the novichuck propaganda.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 25 2020 18:32 utc | 54

Theatrical my ass!

Posted by: Circe | Aug 25 2020 18:32 utc | 55

PleaseBeleafMe 51 "Amazing how much of the internet is relatively dark because it isn't translated."

And fucking amazing nobody has bothered to translate it.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 25 2020 18:35 utc | 56

@54 Peter AU1

And you're a bigger nutter if you think Putin never had a political threat assassinated.

Posted by: Circe | Aug 25 2020 18:36 utc | 57

As the collective west, including Germany, proceed to fabricate another "highly likely" Putin play, may I ask what they have been doing while the collective west has buried Julian Assange alive? Hypocricy is a much too weak word for it.

Posted by: Nathna Mulcahy | Aug 25 2020 18:39 utc | 58

Circe @57 There is far more proof that the Clintons have committed political assassinations than there is that Putin has, so cough up your proof because I've not seen it. Link please.

Or is this just more Russiagate hysteria rehashed?

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 25 2020 18:40 utc | 59

I find fault with this poison idea. Whether Skripals or this guy, why can't Russians competently kill somebody? It can't be that difficult.

Also, did his aide give him the tea? How was the poisoning supposedly engineered?

Posted by: CHRIS ZELL | Aug 25 2020 18:43 utc | 60

@ Posted by: Circe | Aug 25 2020 18:36 utc | 57

Navalny's still alive.

--//--

@ Posted by: Clueless Joe | Aug 25 2020 17:37 utc | 42

There's an extreme treatment for diabetics type 2, where you live in a near state of starvation for months. In some mild cases, it is stated to cure diabetes.

Navalny could be going through this treatment, hence just a cup of tea (there are many teas famous for cutting the appetite) in the morning.

Posted by: vk | Aug 25 2020 18:49 utc | 61

CHRIS ZELL @60 True.

If the Russians are really trying to assassinate, why do it in so theatrical a manner? Just shoot him twice in the back of the head and call it suicide like the Americans do.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 25 2020 18:49 utc | 62

August 24, 2020 Expert reaction to statement from Charité-Universitätsmedizin Berlin hospital that Alexei Navalny may have been poisoned with a substance from the group of cholinesterase inhibitor

I've seen this site before - they post statements from various medical people on matters of public medical interest, such as the pandemic. Useful for people who want some background on the chemicals involved.

Posted by: Circe | Aug 25 2020 16:14 utc | 29

Yup. Just ran across that piece while searching for anything on Navalny having diabetes. Found nothing so far beyond that. b's source appears to be the only one mentioning any diabetes in Navalny's medical history. Apparently his personal doctor has denied this, saying that the "diabetes" issue appears to have more a "description" of his medical condition rather than an actual diagnosis.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 25 2020 17:26 utc | 40 And if he's diabetic or even pre-diabetic, there's a suite of meds he'd need to take daily if not requiring insulin, and those meds must be ingested with food--I know.

Yes, Metformin is the preferred drug. I started on twice a day, then once I lost 45 pounds, the doctor dropped me to one a day. In fact, now I could stop taking it, but I continue to do so because it has alleged anti-aging properties. The only real negative is that it leeches vitamin B-12 from the body - but I take tons of B-12 anyway, so doesn't concern me. Metformin usually needs to be taken with food because otherwise it tends to give you "the runs".

I found an article that says the following:


Russian news agency Interfax later quoted officials in Omsk as saying tests had identified the presence of an industrial chemical in his body.

Russia's Ministry of Internal Affairs told the agency that since the substance they claim was present is commonly used to increase plasticity in products, "it is possible that it could appear in surface washings through the contact of Alexei Navalny with similar objects, for example, through a plastic cup".

Studies have previously shown that the chemical officials were referring to - 2-ethylhexyl diphenyl phosphate - does not have a strong toxic effect on humans.

So it appears from the articles so far that initially the police detected that specific chemical, but medical experts ruled it out as a cause, merely a by-product of having drunk from a plastic cup.

This article discusses the term "metabolic disease", clarifying that it doesn't necessarily mean diabetes.

Bottom line: There is no evidence Navalny had diabetes, although he might well have had either Type 2 or Type 1 diabetes but never diagnosed. However, if he was in a diabetic coma, that should have been detected almost immediately, even by first responders in the ambulance. Beyond that, it appears that whatever chemical was the cause of his condition, it's likely undetectable now.

So another "nothing-burger" which will be seized on to drum up hysteria against Russia. And I've spent *way* too much time on this irrelevant crap.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Aug 25 2020 18:52 utc | 63

Richard Steven Hack

At your age, you should take an interest in dissecting and studying insects.
Re coma from undiagnosed diabetes. From what I can find, that would be due to high blood sugar, whereas a diagnosed patient taking meds can be hit with low blood sugar if carbohydrates and insulin are not matched.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 25 2020 19:05 utc | 64

We need a timeline showing when tea drunk; when airplane boarded; when Navalny went to loo on plane. Video showing his demeanor as he boarded would be great. It's been said his stomach was empty except for the tea, so anything in that tea presumably would have acted quickly, prior to his boarding. Or there was nothing in the tea and Navalny injured himself--or was injured by someone during the walk in the jet-way from the terminal to the plane. Security Video?

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 25 2020 19:13 utc | 65

You seemed a bit rational for a while there Circe. You should take your meds regularly.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 25 2020 19:15 utc | 66

@ William Gruff 50.

My point was that if a tactical nuke was used anywhere, the response by Russia would be a total retaliation strike. Therefore to consider the difference between a nuclear and a conventional bomb is not a minor matter.

The more sensible people in the U.S. are well aware of the gravity of a ‘ mistake ‘ with a tactical nuke.

I find it difficult to comprehend why some commentators fail to realize how dangerous the idea of a limited nuclear war is. There can never be a limited nuclear war. Once the first warhead is detonated, than M.A.D. must follow.

Posted by: Beibdnn | Aug 25 2020 19:26 utc | 67

karlof1

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8654453/Pictured-Vladimir-Putins-arch-foe-Alexei-Navalny-minutes-collapsing-suspected-poisoning.html
"The opposition leader posed with the female supporter moments before taking his seat on a flight from the Siberian city of Tomsk to Moscow on Thursday."

"Mr Navalny drank a cup of tea at a cafe inside Tomsk airport, which his supporters suspect had been poisoned because it was all he ate or drank that morning."

"The saleswoman, who did not want to be identified, said one of Mr Navalny's entourage bought the tea at the counter and took it to him at the table."

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 25 2020 19:37 utc | 68

Posted by: CHRIS ZELL | Aug 25 2020 18:43 utc | 60

Hey, you got a point there.

Posted by: Beibdnn | Aug 25 2020 19:26 utc | 67
To be clear: Russia reserves the right to respond to a conventional strike by nuclear weapon.
They explicitely informed Scandinavian countries that by joining NATO they would become a target. color revolutions will have to fight for themselves, they will get weapons but no NATO intervention.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 25 2020 19:47 utc | 69

Beibdnn @67

I think you are exaggerating Russia's response. It is unlikely that Russia would even know that a 0.5kt device was used without some investigation.

Many people strangely seem to think that everyone in the world would automatically know if a tactical "bunker buster" nuclear weapon were used anywhere in the world. Who here carries a geiger counter around with them to check if there is extra radiation from everything that goes Boom!" in their neighborhood? I've not heard negative evidence about radiation in Beirut, only people exclaiming "If anyone checked it would be obvious!" Well, has anyone checked?

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 25 2020 19:51 utc | 70

Gadzookz @ 5

Start your own blog then. So many fail to realize a blog is an opinion.....everyone has one

Posted by: Digital Spartacus | Aug 25 2020 20:02 utc | 71

William Gruff@70

Russia's rescue team reportedly took the west side of the bomb site, while France's team took the crater site itself. Given the seriousness of the suspicions at hand, I would bet radiological measurements were taken, if nothing else for the teams' own safety. I have no doubts those readings must have been taken, I would regard it incompetence otherwise (which I exclude at least on the part of the russians)

Posted by: Vasco da Gama | Aug 25 2020 20:04 utc | 72

Excuse me, I said "bomb site" in a knee-jerk fashion... I don't know what it was! I should have said "explosion site".

Posted by: Vasco da Gama | Aug 25 2020 20:06 utc | 73

I suppose we can anticipate them having to replace the roof at the airport....

Posted by: Digital Spartacus | Aug 25 2020 20:13 utc | 74

@ Gruff

The tell-tale signs of a nuclear detonation of any size would be hard to hide from inspectors who visit the site within a day or so. Furthermore, as the wind blew towards Damascus, so you may assume that air samples were taken there as well, if not by Syrians or Russians then by Iranians. There would be an outcry if unusual isotopes were encountered.

Anyway this is off-topic for this thread. OP @#5 should have posted his nookoolar mizzle shizzle to some nutter board, not here and certainly not in this particular thread.

Posted by: Lurk | Aug 25 2020 20:15 utc | 75

The long delay between administration of the poison and the onset of effects AND the apparent nonlethatity are clear evidence of novichok. Case closed.

Posted by: Lurk | Aug 25 2020 20:18 utc | 76

Lurk @77

Precisely four hours between contact with novichok and onset of symptoms, regardless of victim age, weight, health, and quantity of novichok contacted. It is a truly amazing chemical weapon, though not very practical for battlefield use.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 25 2020 20:25 utc | 77

Hi B,
testing for circulating cholinesterase activty is very simple-- a chromogenic assay with acetyl thiocholine and DTNB. So its the first thing you would do in a case like this. In the case of a nerve agent there should be no circulating activity. The Russians must have known this.
So the question is now -- is there anything stuck to the active site serine of the enzyme-- an adduct. This one for Porton Down -- they will find it probably by immunoprecipitation and mass spectrometry and they ought to get the mass and some structural data on the toxin. Clinically, he should have had a bradycardia and excess secretions and pupils constricted. Doesn't sound like that. The question is can we trust the West to be truthful here. After various OPCW fiascos I doubt it.
CJ

Posted by: cj | Aug 25 2020 20:29 utc | 78

One would assume that if someone with some sophistication were going to poison Mr Nalvany that they would use a means that would be difficult to detect. But of course failure to detect it would not be evidence of poisoning either. Really poison seems a bit to Sherlock Homes-ish. In the U.S. I think the use of a 9MM handgun is found to do the job. Not meaning any ill will toward Mr Nalvany, this would seem more an effort to gain attention rather than to avoid it. It is my impression that the CIA is pretty simply, even indifferent to the method of assasination - this level of incompetence points to the British. As with the Skirpals, my thought was that if Putin wants someone dead, the will be dead not sick.

Posted by: jared | Aug 25 2020 20:33 utc | 79

jared @80

Whenever Navalny does end up dying the Russian government will be blamed anyway, so if they wanted him dead then why not just blow him up with some missiles like the US did with General Soleimani? Why not just arrest him, claim he resisted arrest, then shoot him like happens with so many people in the US?

This talk about him being targeted by the Russian government using obscure toxins that don't work is beyond silly.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 25 2020 20:46 utc | 80

Due to Navalny's dealings in Tomsk, this smells more of a bid to leave the country. Orchestrations set in place by Germany suggests an asset that has run his course, but they can't leave him in country to deal with any complications of him being taken by someone else. This doesn't feel like state acting....or at least not the Russian state. Gruff is right, this isn't targeting by the Russians. Navalny hasn't been relevant in Russian circles since at least 2012-13 if he was even then.

Posted by: Digital Spartacus | Aug 25 2020 21:04 utc | 81

I don't understand why people commenting here still insist on playing CSI Miami. The Russian doctors have already publicly stated their own lab results showed absolutely no signs of Cholinesterase Inhibitors. As in evidence of zero CI - not zero evidence of CI:

Russian Doctors Deny Navalny Had Traces, Symptoms of Cholinesterase Inhibitors Poisoning

"Upon his admission to the [Omsk] hospital, Alexey Navalny was tested on a wide range of narcotics, synthetic substances, psychodiletics and medicinal substances, including cholinesterase inhibitorsall tests came back negative," Sabayev said in a press statement, as quoted by the Omsk Ministry of Health.

No cholinesterase inhibitors were used, according to the Russian lab results. It's not that they didn't test Navalny for the substances - they did and they came out negative.

Sabayev even called the Germans' bluff:

"Additionally, Navalny lacked symptoms specific of the poisoning with cholinesterase inhibitors substances. As we said earlier, we are ready to share Alexey Navalny's samples with our German colleagues for examination," the health official [Sabayev] added.

MoA's own German source state the lab tests in Germany were carried out by "independent laboratories". They most likely are in BND's control, in one way or the other. Many Western European nations have constitutional clauses that allow their respective governments (usually, at the discretion of the executive) to intervene directly on the private sector in specific occasions, normally under "national security" reasons. The executive of the British government, for example, has a legal device that allows it to outright censor (without the need for legislative approval) any specific information from all the British media outlets. I'm sure modern Germany also has many constitutional clauses that allow its government and intelligence agencies to intervene anywhere, anytime in the German economy instantly and covertly, under the umbrella of national security.

As I predicted, the Russians aren't that stupid. They stored some blood samples from Navalny, and they know, for sure, that he wasn't poisoned with CIs. That's why Peskov was so direct, so sudden and so confident when he declared the Kremlin was in no hurry - because they saw no reason - to initiate an investigation on Navalny's sudden health problems. And he also called the German bluff ("If the substance is established and if it is established that this is poisoning, then, of course, this will be a cause for investigation", i.e. there won't be an investigation because there's no poison).

Posted by: vk | Aug 25 2020 21:05 utc | 82

PleaseBeleafMe #51

Amazing how much of the internet is relatively dark because it isn't translated.

Yes I gather there are many millions of people who are forever relieved that english keeps to itself.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 25 2020 21:24 utc | 83

William Gruff @81--

This talk about him being targeted by the Russian government using obscure toxins that don't work is beyond silly.

But that's the West's MO when it comes to trying to frame the USSR/Warsaw Pact Member/Russia over the decades--an old Big Lie Narrative that will be used until the Outlaw US Empire finally drowns. From yesterday:


"'The Russians were there and they are there now 24/7 trying to interfere in our election, but they're not the only ones', Pelosi said."

But then Pelosi added:

"We take an oath to protect and defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. And sadly, the domestic enemies to our voting system and our honoring of the Constitution are right at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue with their allies in the Congress of the United States".

Amazing that Pelosi is suddenly aware of her duty.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 25 2020 21:27 utc | 84

Too true uncle.....amazing how many people that use the internet remain relatively in the dark because they only speak english or lack the skills to use a translator

Posted by: Digital Spartacus | Aug 25 2020 21:28 utc | 85

karlof1, I imagine writers at The Onion have a much easier task writing their brand of satire with the political class of the US tossing out bon mots such as those.

Posted by: Digital Spartacus | Aug 25 2020 21:32 utc | 86

CHRIS ZELL #60

I find fault with this poison idea. Whether Skripals or this guy, why can't Russians competently kill somebody? It can't be that difficult.

Also, did his aide give him the tea? How was the poisoning supposedly engineered?

Heart breaker herb will do the job. Apparently easy to source for Asian residents. Person dies of apparent heart attack but getting them to eat it requires a food preparer etc in the link. I am sure there are many other assassins tools out there that are more definite and subtle. Fungi are fun.

It does not look like a 'state' job. This looks like he was the target of revenge and for all to see. Or that he was set up to smear the Russian state. Either way he has been eliminated.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 25 2020 21:42 utc | 87

karlof1 #85

"We take an oath to protect and defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. And sadly, the domestic enemies to our voting system and our honoring of the Constitution are right at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue with their allies in the Congress of the United States".

Amazing that Pelosi is suddenly aware of her duty.

Thank you karlof1 - LMFAO - coffee all over the keyboard.

Perhaps Pelosi should take her own advice and discuss this belief of hers with Debbie Wasserman Schultz. After all Schultz promoted the Awan family spy and blackmail ring to other members of the Democrat caucus in Congress.

Another swamp pond yet to drain, take note Barr, there is still a lot of work ahead ha ha ha.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 25 2020 21:48 utc | 88

It is known that activation of acetylcholine receptors (specifically M3 muscarinic receptors) in the pancreas promotes insulin release into the bloodstream, which consequently would tend to decrease blood glucose.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11588141/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550413106001598?via%3Dihub

It's therefore possible that hypoglycemia could be triggered by increased acetylcholine levels (drug-induced or otherwise). This would be less likely to occur in diabetics, as such individuals would be deficient in either the ability to produce (type 1 diabetes) or respond (type 2 diabetes) to insulin.

Posted by: farm ecologist | Aug 25 2020 22:13 utc | 89

About Beirut and supposedly "nuclear" explosion - please give it a rest.

While technically small fission nukes like this (or smaller) exist for a long time (like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_%28nuclear_device%29 ), using it would leave 100% detectable radiation trace. All states in Med area down the wind would detect it in following days without a shred of doubt.

Also nuclear blast greatly differs from conventional explosion (most of energy goes into blinding light), and there are numerous videos of blast being only expanding gases.

Posted by: Abe | Aug 25 2020 22:13 utc | 90

"In fact, the physical damage observed in Beirut is not much different from what you would expect from a 'bunker buster' tactical nuclear weapon. We're not talking Tsar Bomba here, after all."

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 25 2020 18:20 utc | 50

So the Israelis or whoever planted the nuke in the same building as the fireworks and the organic fertilizer, right? And that was to cover up the nuke, right?

Can anyone tell me what is wrong with this picture?

Posted by: Dr. Pornsak | Aug 25 2020 22:37 utc | 91

From Ekonomika Segodnya:
Anastasiya Brotskaya (24 August 2020): "Charite suspected of unprofessionalism because of conclusions on Navalny"

Dmitri Petrovsky, a doctor of medical sciences, a surgeon and deputy of the municipality of Yaroslavl, questioned the competence of German doctors who said that blogger Alexei Navalny had been poisoned.

Doctors [trreating] Navalny [at] the German clinic "Charité" reported on Monday, August 24, about the presence in the body of the blogger substance, part of the group of inhibitors cholinesterase. According to them, this indicates the poisoning of the head of the Anti-Corruption Foundation (recognized as a foreign agent).

Dmitri Petrovsky, M.D., surgeon and deputy of the municipality of Yaroslavl, commented on the statement of German medics.

"What they found in Navalny cholinesterase inhibitors after being in intensive care is normal. They should be in the man who was in intensive care and was on ventilator. And if the doctor finds them in the analysis of the person after a stay in the operating room and concludes that he was poisoned, then the conclusion is: either it is a political order, or an illiterate doctor," the expert said.

According to public figure Ernest Makarenko, the hospitalization of Navalny in ["Charité"] is nothing but a political matter. Omsk doctors coped perfectly with the blogger's treatment, but to make Navalny a "victim", he had to be defiantly taken to the West, the expert added.

Readers will need to use Google Translate.

In other words, if Navalny had not been found to have cholinesterase inhibitors in his body after being treated in an ICU with intubation, then the doctors at the Omsk hospital who initially treated him hadn't been doing their job properly.

Posted by: Jen | Aug 25 2020 23:07 utc | 92

@91 Abe

The radiation would have been detected in a matter of hours because most of those 4,000 injured would have been dying of radiation poisoning. Well, most of those 4,000 would have been dead because of the heat produced from a nuclear explosion, but there would have been an additional 5,000-10,000 injured who would have been dying of radiation poisoning.

Posted by: Haassaan | Aug 25 2020 23:17 utc | 93

Aha - found MPN's comment @ 12, clicked on the link to Elena Evdokimova's tweets and then clicked on a link she provides and here is another article (from Zhurnalistskaya Pravda)
on Dmitri Petrovsky's comments about Navalny's treatment in Germany.

"Dmitry Petrovsky: Charite Clinic shows amateurism in conclusions on Navalny"

What they found in Navalny cholinesterase inhibitors after being in intensive care is normal. They should be in the man who was in intensive care and was on ventilator. If they weren't there, it would be strange, I'd be surprised.

Tonight, doctors of the German clinic "Charite" found in the blood of blogger Alexei Navalny substance, which, in their opinion, could provoke his illness, and hastened to announce the poisoning. However, in Russian practice, this substance is widely used to prevent disorders that developing in patients on ventilator.

German doctors found in Navalny substance - cholinesterase inhibitor.

"The effect of the toxin, i.e. the inhibition of cholinesterase in the body, has been proven several times in independent laboratories. According to the diagnosis, the patient is treated with an antidote to atropine. The outcome of the disease remains unsafe and the subsequent effects, especially in the nervous system, cannot be ruled out at this time," the statement obtained by Izvestia reads.

Deputy of the municipality of Yaroslavl, M.D., surgeon Dmitry Petrovsky commented on this "find" of German colleagues.

"Cholinesterase inhibitors are widely used medicines in medicine. Basically, they are used in the postoperative management of patients, when transferring to independent breathing. That's what Navalny had. He was first on ventilator and when trying to translate it, could use the drug Proserin. It is a cholinesterase inhibitor that is officially administered to all patients when transferred to independent breathing. It must be used. I think it was used. But I also understand that, most likely, he had to shine as Proserin's German colleagues. Perhaps used not Proserin in its pure form, but another drug, more rare - Ubretide, which is also an absolutely official drug, which is used in intensive care, in postoperative practice to prevent bladder atony, to prevent bowel atony and, accordingly, widely used. But, I admit, it can be used little in Germany, and it was not in the toxicology kit, so they could be surprised, and because of this all the cheese-bor.

What they found in Navalny cholinesterase inhibitors after being in intensive care is normal. They should be in the man who was in intensive care and was on ventilator. If they weren't there, it would be strange, I'd be surprised.

When a person breathes with the help of the ventilator, various disorders develop, including respiratory, cardiovascular, with the intestines, with the bladder. Various drugs are used to prevent these disorders, including cholinesterase inhibitors. And if the doctor finds them in the analysis of the person after a stay in the operating room and concludes that he was poisoned, then the conclusion is: either it is a political order, or an illiterate doctor."

Perhaps next time Navalny is in Russia and has a seizure or a collapse requiring IC treatment and intubation, hospital staff should just arrange to send him to the closest international airport and phone Charité to collect him as he is.

Thanks MPN for the link to Evdokimova's tweets.

Posted by: Jen | Aug 25 2020 23:21 utc | 94

My gut says this has something to do with Belarus; a side show maybe?
Things in Belarus are not looking good for Lukashenko and Putin will have to intervene to avoid NATO coming closer.
Is this Navalny thing, I support the diabetes argument, an accidental opportunity for the West to raise the cost on Putin, trying to prevent an intervention?

Posted by: HossCara | Aug 25 2020 23:37 utc | 95

Jen @93 & 95--

Thanks for providing those! IMO, sometime after the Skripal kidnapping a memo was sent to all Russian medical personnel about the handling of known dissidents--to use kid gloves and a fine tooth comb whilst saving all fluids taken for testing and using an impeccable evidence chain, for that's what's related by the doctor. I'd like to think such attention to detail is usual practice in Russia.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 25 2020 23:52 utc | 96

He has diabetes. He ate nothing but tea. Ergo diabetic shock. Qed.

Posted by: Thom Prentice | Aug 25 2020 23:55 utc | 97

i recommend a new ''military grade chemical agent" navalchok in honour of Alexey Navalny... maybe alexeychok is better... it has a nice malevolent russian ring to it!

Posted by: james | Aug 26 2020 0:59 utc | 98

@Posted by: Haassaan | Aug 25 2020 23:17 utc | 94

Of course, I omitted most obvious immediate consequence of using nuke in city - lot of dead, burned and irradiated people with symptoms showing right away - for those doubters thinking Lebanese gov. could suppress something like that.

Even smallest of nukes would make a lot of fires and burn injuries at great distance, not to mention lethal radiation dosage at great distance. Even Dave Crockett tactical nuke (10-20tons range) would kill anyone in range of 400m in unobstructed line of sight due to lethal radiation dosage. All those people recording explosion would be either dead, blind and/or severely burned within mile or two.

Posted by: Abe | Aug 26 2020 1:11 utc | 99

james @Aug26 0:59 #98

Maybe "Wonderland grade chemical agent" and "Alicechok"?

Off with his meds!

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 26 2020 1:43 utc | 100

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