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August 28, 2020
Open Thread 2020-68
Comments
Peter AU1 | 32
Yes, the way you express it there, it’s more likely an indirect effect. Been thinking about liver involvement, too. Couldn’t come to any conclusion.
As for Navalny’s howling in this one video, I agree with you (you discussed this with someone else here), it seemed odd. Not just the straight-forward sounds of someone in pain.
“The Daily Mail” and “Der Spiegel” claiming that Charité hospital has contacted Porton Down, that seems very far-fetched, to say the least. I might just as well say it sounds like a wild fantasy. There’s nothing pointing to such a scenario in the Charité’s latest press release, which simply runs like this:
Alexei Navalny has been receiving treatment at Charité – Universitätsmedizin Berlin since last weekend. His condition is stable.
There has been some improvement in the symptoms caused by the inhibition of cholinesterase activity. Mr. Navalny continues to be treated in an intensive care unit, where he is being kept in a medically induced coma and on a ventilator. While his condition remains serious, there is no immediate danger to his life. However, due to the severity of the patient’s poisoning, it remains too early to gauge potential long-term effects.
The treating physicians remain in close contact with Mr. Navalny’s wife. After consultation with the patient’s wife, Charité is reassured that the decision to make details of the patient’s condition public would be in accordance with his wishes.
Nothing.
A word on the term “poisoning” that’s used in the statement. I don’t know about possible connotations of the term in English, I’ll leave that to the native speakers. But the German version uses the word “Vergiftung”, which is an unspecific noun with a pretty broad range denoting the state he’s in. He has/had a certain poisonous substance in his system and his health is suffering the consequences. You would use the same word if you accidentally included the wrong kind of mushrooms in your home-cooked mushroom dish – Pilzvergiftung. So it can easily cover any accidental and also self-induced instance of coming into contact with a poison (eg Alkoholvergiftung, Medikamentenvergiftung). What’s more, Charité’s statements have never used any other way of expressing the fact. So any media outlet writing things like “Charité says Navalny was poisoned” (as in malicious 3rd-party involvement) is absolutely fake news at this point. It really is, so please people don’t fall for that claim.
Have a nice weekend everyone!
Posted by: Scotch Bingeington | Aug 29 2020 21:14 utc | 101
@ 100 kiza.. you put yourself in the doghouse with that one comment! i know you make worthwhile comments… that was a mistake on your part… sometimes it’s just best to accept you made a mistake.. hard to do, but worth it most of the time… i think most people are forgiving… i could be wrong. it is how i view it all..
Posted by: james | Aug 29 2020 21:22 utc | 102
H.Schmatz #98
Thank you for all of your posts on this thread.
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 29 2020 21:31 utc | 103
@Scotch #101 re: poison
The use of ‘poison’ in that context is a dry medical statement of condition. Nearly anything can be poisonous, including water, if concentrations overwhelm the processing power of the body. It’s a medically accurate term, but sadly allows for such linguistic contortions.
Posted by: Dr Wellington Yueh | Aug 29 2020 21:33 utc | 104
Scotch Bingeington 101
Navalny may have taken it knowingly or unknowingly, but I think he has taken some chemical compound that caused a sudden drop in both blood sugar levels and cholinesterase, but no traces of it in blood tests.
I take it the Skripals also had low cholinesterase, and I would put a bit of money on them also having hypoglycemia.
Known cases of cholinesterase inhibiter poisoning do not have hypoglycemia as a side affect and vice verse. The two are not linked in any medical publication I can find.
Both Navalny and the Skripals collapsed 40 to 60 minutes after eating or drinking something. My theory… perhaps time for a substance to be absorbed in the gut, from where it travels to the liver and shuts down some liver functions – amongst them releasing glucose into the blood and production of cholinesterase.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 29 2020 22:30 utc | 105
Time for “Anthem for a Lost Cause”….by MSP…
https://twitter.com/sacedator/status/1299435166901903360
Posted by: H.Schmatz | Aug 29 2020 12:56 utc | 81
Or this . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw6JO_l8NyQ
Posted by: AntiSpin | Aug 29 2020 22:31 utc | 106
The black out on the 2 massive and peaceful
German protests and gross undercounts for the few mentions it gets is in MSM is hilarious. b is in Germany, right?
Posted by: Kay Fabe | Aug 29 2020 23:02 utc | 107
Peter AU1 | Aug 29 2020 22:30 utc
In my understanding, Skripal’s symptom led to a suspicion of fentanyl poisoning, and Navalny’s symptoms did not.
—————–
My theory… perhaps time for a substance to be absorbed in the gut, from where it travels to the liver and shuts down some liver functions – amongst them releasing glucose into the blood and production of cholinesterase.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 29 2020 22:30 utc | 105
I think it takes more time for a drink to reach intestines, be absorbed there and enter the liver, and “shut down some liver functions”. For example, a mushroom poisoning that attacks the liver takes days to show full symptoms.
Posted by: Piotr Berman | Aug 29 2020 23:02 utc | 108
Self-described “Sandia Labs electrical engineer/former infantryman Casey Peterson” launches truth bomb against Sandia Labs’ white racial guilt training. This is going to be big.
Written summary. 2 min excerpt. Youtube channel. 1 hr full video. Horror story from American motivation re-education camp.
Engineers are pissed. It’s about to get a lot more interesting.
Posted by: Imagine | Aug 29 2020 23:06 utc | 109
Kiza #100
I promise to try to find time to explain why I called ‘karlof’ a troll in one of the next Open Threads. I do not do drive-bys as his 2IC ‘psychohistorian’ skillfully and effectively called it.
I take it you did not have time or evidence available at the time you jumped to your hasty and erroneous accusation at the time of you original insult.
Now you ask us to be patient while you research, find time, and mull evidence to substantiate your knee jerk post.
Ridiculous.
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 30 2020 1:42 utc | 110
Dr Wellington Yueh #104
The use of ‘poison’ in that context is a dry medical statement of condition. Nearly anything can be poisonous, including water, if concentrations overwhelm the processing power of the body. It’s a medically accurate term, but sadly allows for such linguistic contortions.
Not buying that one Dr, perhaps you might try taking up whitewash for a trade.
The words that are more appropriate in that statement that reads
While his condition remains serious, there is no immediate danger to his life. However, due to the severity of the patient’s poisoning, it remains too early to gauge potential long-term effects.
condition
illness
impact on the patients organs
One has no need to apologise or automatically support a statement that is supposed to be a medical report rather than ammunition for a political football match. And the good doctors of this institution in particular would be well aware of the mendacity of media and ideologues to use their statement to score a goal.
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 30 2020 1:53 utc | 111
Since Karof1 threatened (or promised?) to bring lawyers and lawsuits into the picture I’m not sure why Kiza needs to document anything.
Everyone should have at least a tiny sliver of self-awareness: there is no one posting here (including me) who couldn’t and wouldn’t be accused of being a troll by someone else. It comes with the territory.
And every once in a while someone blows up. I know Karlof1 has done it before (against Jackrabbit) and I have too.
– – –
Berman: thank you, I think I understood what you said, you said “yes” with a lot of detail(?) 🙂
Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Aug 30 2020 1:58 utc | 112
Peter AU1 #105
Both Navalny and the Skripals collapsed 40 to 60 minutes after eating or drinking something. My theory… perhaps time for a substance to be absorbed in the gut, from where it travels to the liver and shuts down some liver functions – amongst them releasing glucose into the blood and production of cholinesterase.
The Skripals may have been simultaneously sprayed with an agent by a passerby. Note ALL CCTV of Salisbury has been confiscated. It is among the most CCTV intensive villages in UK. Full of spooks and ex spooks and people in need of watching or being watched over.
Food journey in digestive tract is too slow: see here
Fentanyl contact is mostly immediate.
Navalny seems very different perhaps even initially faked and then plane diverted to an airport other than he anticipated.
Diabetics eat immediately on waking – not so Navalny and that is mighty odd. Or did he eat a snack at the hotel prior to journey to airport? What were his moves in the past 24 hours? Is there a sticky gel on his hotel bed? :))
None of this excludes him being tagged with fentanyl between airport lounge and within the plane. He was well past his ‘use by’ date and immediately was greater value to the ‘hate russia’ game as a dead or poisoned man.
“The Daily Mail” and “Der Spiegel” claiming that Charité hospital has contacted Porton Down, that seems very far-fetched, to say the least.
Not too far fetched for Integrity Initiative or the Institute for Statecraft. They have Journalists on their payroll at both media companies according to the original leaked papers. AND these two institutions are the fully paid agents of the UK state – they are the primary propaganda agents for the ‘hate russia’ campaign that has been ongoing for a century or more. The Great Game.
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 30 2020 2:22 utc | 113
ld # 55
Great post. :))
I will shout you a Gin and tonic for that.
or maybe a black and tan
red wine?
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 30 2020 2:28 utc | 114
re: uncle tungsten’s sharp knee
Not buying that one Dr, perhaps you might try taking up whitewash for a trade.
Not at all referring to the veracity of the article, simply that the word can and is used in such a manner in a medical context.
As for the gate-keeping shit, please stop.
Posted by: Dr Wellington Yueh | Aug 30 2020 2:38 utc | 115
Navalny and his liquid inputs
Peter AU1, I found this:
It can take anywhere from five minutes to two hours to digest water, depending on what’s already in your stomach.
So given that we are told he did not buy food or eat(?) at the airport and have no idea if he rose early and snacked at hotel or ate prepared breakfast on the drive to the airport then we can’t assume the tea he drank was spiked. What is the time between tea drink and boarding? and then tea drink and onset of the yelling and groaning? Is there a published timeline of his previous 12+ hours prior to the airport?
There is the possibility that this was his last paid performance prior to leaving Russia (as arranged). It would be ironic if he unintentionally fell into the hands of competent Doctors in Omsk and blew it badly.
Is this pilot error? :))
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 30 2020 3:19 utc | 116
Robert De Niro @RobertDeNiroUS
Capitalism.
[VIDEO]
https://twitter.com/RobertDeNiroUS/status/1299064536868282369
Posted by: Mao | Aug 30 2020 3:35 utc | 117
So last night (my time) we had Merkel spouting the multilateralism line and today it is the French FM and the Chinese FM who provides 4 point proposal to support multilateralism. Below is a Xinhuanet posting about such
”
PARIS, Aug. 29 (Xinhua) — China and France, as major responsible countries, need to actively promote and practice multilateralism which is essential for the well-being of most countries, especially small- and medium-sized ones, visiting Chinese State Councilor and Foreign Minister Wang Yi said here on Saturday.
In talks with French Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian, Wang said that upholding multilateralism is the biggest consensus reached during his trip to Europe.
He said that unilateralism is on the rise today as some countries ignore international agreements and refuse to fulfill their international obligations.
Without multilateralism, he said, the multilateral mechanism and international order established since World War II will be seriously damaged, and small- and medium-sized countries will suffer a huge impact.
“Under such circumstances, China and France, as major responsible countries, should actively promote and practice multilateralism,” he said, making a four-point proposal for the two countries.
First, China and France need to adhere to the concept of multilateralism. The two sides should actively promote multilateralism on various occasions, resist unilateralism and make multilateralism the consensus of the international community.
Second, both sides should take multilateral actions. China supports France in continuing to play a leading role in tackling climate change. China has already met its 2020 emission reduction target ahead of schedule and is actively studying the next step. The two sides should support each other in the upcoming Conference of the Parties to the Convention on Biological Diversity in Kunming, China, and the World Conservation Congress in Marseille, France, both to be held next year.
Third, China and France should abide by multilateral agreements. Unilateralism, including irresponsible withdrawal from international organizations or violation of international agreements, is unpopular. China and France should strengthen coordination and cooperation on international affairs, and safeguard major outcomes of international agreements and multilateral diplomacy, such as the Iran nuclear deal.
Fourth, the two sides should strengthen multilateral institutions. The United Nations is the most important platform for supporting and practicing multilateralism, and the two sides should support the United Nations in playing its due central role in international affairs.
”
Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 30 2020 4:13 utc | 118
Covsploitation is a real thing. Essential goods and services such a basic food cost three times as much as before the transdemic.
Write your con-gressperson. Use words that cannot be spoken here.
Pompeo presses Israel to cool ties with China US Secretary of State asks Netanyahu to limit Chinese investment in Israeli infrastructure projects, points out Chinese support for Iran.
Israel, US close to signing deal on leaving China out of 5G infrastructure
Another one bites the dust under
The Exceptional’s
Global Chinese Exclusion Act.
Posted by: denk | Aug 30 2020 5:06 utc | 120
uncle tungsten 115
some things are absorbed through your stomach not long after downing them. Especially water soluble stuff. Other stuff takes longer to break down so it depends on the break down process as to what part of your entrails absorbs them and depending on the speed it moves though the shit pipe as to how long before you absorb them.
Skripals were found 45 minutes after leaving the restaurant and Navalny collapsed 40 minutes into the flight.
It would be interesting to know how long before the flight Navalny had his cup of tea. He seems to have flown a lot so Idoubt he went there ultra early. Book in, go and find a cup of tea, get on the plane.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 30 2020 6:01 utc | 121
Piotr Berman
A lot of water soluble stuff is absorbed by the mouth and stomach. Something in a drink will be absorbed very quickly. A number of medications you simply put under your tongue.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 30 2020 6:26 utc | 122
Peter AU1 #120
After restaurant they went to pub. That is where the shit hit the fan and they dashed away to be found shortly after sprawled on the bench. It was at the bench where they were attended to by the daughter of the most qualified cbw senior officer/nurse in the UK army – the daughters mother. They just happened to be right there. Serendipity sucks eh?
They entered the pub Stone cold sober and Sergei immediately ordered a drink, went to toilet as drinks arrived and appeared drunk on return from toilet then hasty drinks and bolted off to their doom at Park bench. No CCTV.
The pub was shut for months, the staff repeatedly interrogated by special branch. There was something big going down there.
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 30 2020 7:36 utc | 123
@Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 30 2020 2:22 utc | 113
For what I read at a Russian Twitter account, Navalny passed his stay in Tomsk from one birthday party to another similar event, drinking mainly alcohol for what it seems…
If he slept few, as it is to be guessed, plus ate few, plus drank a lot of alcohol, it is to be suspected that, at his age, at least a gastritis was developed.
Add to that a tea cup through an empty stomach early in the morning and you have an stomach ache mostly guaranteed…
All this “life style” coincides with the Russian doctors´diagnosis, as it implies an almost asured low glucose levels and even a metabolic reaction…
IMO, Navalny just suffered an acute stomach ache and hypoglycemia he awarded to himself by negligence in his own self-care. The Russian doctors´diagnosis was right.
Then, something happened in the flight to Germany, once he left Russian hospital´s custody…as NATO operatives ( amongst whom there are Germans…) are always most interested in creating a crisis in Russia, through a “opposition figure” as prime way, which could lead to regime change….
Posted by: H.Schmatz | Aug 30 2020 10:42 utc | 124
H.Schmatz # 124
Sounds about right. The German NATO officers will never forgive Russia for kicking their arse in 1944 an 45.
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 30 2020 11:21 utc | 125
@ Sunny Runny Burger | Aug 29 2020 16:11 utc | 87
Sounds very much like the eighties revisited, this time with internet memes.
I really liked The truth.
Posted by: Lurk | Aug 30 2020 11:50 utc | 126
This is the Twitt on Navalny´s whereabouts in Tomsk…
https://twitter.com/elenaevdokimov7/status/1298951478871113729
During his trip to Tomsk, Navlny drunk every day – at a birthday party, in a hotel, in Kaftanchikovo :
“poisoning with cholinesterase inhibitors?”
Study: (AchE) activity was measured in the
blood of 36 alcoholic subjects and 41 healthy volunteers. The mean activity in the alcoholics was significantly lower than that in the control subjects.”
“>https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.117
Also, on Navalny way of funding…and why this guy, at his age,continue going to night parties, as he did not need to wake up early ever, unless to catch a flight, and why that makes him feel so badly…so that he does not have time to get breakfast, out of lack of custom to get up at such ill-timed hour…
https://twitter.com/elenaevdokimov7/status/1299165471128788993
Interesting insides in this article, in French:
“Navalny has virtually unlimited funds that come to him either through Bitcoin from anonymous donors or through well-stocked envelopes received during discreet meetings with employees of the US Consulate”.
As a proof on that what they need is dead people…and on that what they aim is not peaceful….This could be applied to everywhere else, including the US with its own “protests”, as the play book have its origins precisely there…
A political vampire from Lithuania, conservative politician & Member of European Parliament, Vytautas Landsbergis, said that political struggle in Belarus requires more people deaths- “it will not be a big tragedy and will serve freedom”
https://twitter.com/elenaevdokimov7/status/1299874895174619136
Posted by: H.Schmatz | Aug 30 2020 11:55 utc | 127
@ uncle tungsten | Aug 30 2020 7:36 utc | 123
Thanks for reminding us of some of the sordid details that got so little attention in the headlies.
They tell us that “We’re in an information war with Russia”, but it’s more like it’s these people who are claiming this are in a war with the rest of us all.
Could be that Russia is in on it, could be not. But that THEY are in on it is plainly undeniable. Cue more diversions…
Posted by: Lurk | Aug 30 2020 12:03 utc | 128