Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 27, 2020

'Mostly Peaceful' Rioting And Looting Is Helping Trump's Campaign

The Civil War of 2020 continues apace.

2020

bigger

After three months of continuous clashes in Portland between Antifa rioters, who hide behind peaceful protests, and the police, the mayor is finally concerned about the damage:

Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler said Wednesday he hasn’t done enough to focus on damages caused by some city protests over the last three months and the fallout from coronavirus. He called on the community to help him come up with better solutions to city issues.

During the last months the Magnificent Mile in Chicago was looted - twice. Yesterday new riots and looting occurred in Minneapolis after a rumor of another police killing incited some people:

Police Chief Medaria Arradondo tried to dispel rumors that spread on social media about the death of the unidentified Black man, who was suspected in a Wednesday afternoon homicide and fatally shot himself on the Nicollet Mall as officers approached several hours later. His death, which was captured on city surveillance video and released by police within 90 minutes, nonetheless sparked protests and unrest in the heart of downtown.

The video confirmed the police account of what happened and showed the man glancing over his shoulder before pulling out the gun and firing, then collapsing to the ground as a half-dozen witnesses ran away with their hands in the air. The officers, one of whom had his gun drawn, shooed a remaining witness away and kicked the suspect’s gun away before performing chest compressions.

Last Sunday police in Kenosha, Wisconsin proved to be too incompetent to arrest a man they had already had under control. They shot him 7 times into the back when he was trying to get into his car. Nights of rioting followed. Buildings were burned down and businesses were looted.

Yesterday a white teen with a semi-automatic weapon had the stupid idea to join others in 'protecting the businesses' in Kenosha from further looting. He ended up killing two people and wounding more after he was attacked by some of the rioters. The teen was arrested and he is facing charges but I doubt that he is guilty of more than sheer stupidity and manslaughter in self defense.

The cycle of violence will likely continue. There are too many racist in the police and the level of U.S. police training seems to be abysmal. There is also too much tolerance for violence within the general community.

Politically this plays into Trump's law and order campaign. The Democrats have lauded Black Live Matters and the protests but have hardly spoken out against the rioting and looting that comes with them.

This CNN chyron from yesterday evening is an expression of their position:


bigger

'Mostly peaceful protests' are like the 'moderate rebels' in Syria - propaganda constructs that do not exist in the real world. The people who owned the burning cars and whose businesses were destroyed will not be relieved by such phrasing.

Joe Biden's attempt to swing Republican voters to his side has failed. At the same time he has rejected many of the issues progressives favored. This will hurt the election turn out the Democrats will need. Add to that the unrest which plays into Trump's hands. The Democrats who fear that are right:

“There’s no doubt it’s playing into Trump’s hands,” said Paul Soglin, who served as mayor of Madison, on and off, for more than two decades. “There’s a significant number of undecided voters who are not ideological, and they can move very easily from Republican to the Democratic column and back again. They are, in effect, the people who decide elections. And they are very distraught about both the horrendous carnage created by police officers in murdering African Americans, and ... for the safety of their communities.”

Trump, of course, is positioning himself as the antidote to urban unrest. "So let me be clear: The violence must stop, whether in Minneapolis, Portland or Kenosha," Vice President Mike Pence declared in his Republican convention speech Wednesday night, with Trump looking on. "We will have law and order on the streets of this country for every American of every race and creed and color."

Republicans had chided Joe Biden and other Democrats for not calling out the violence in the aftermath of the Blake shooting. Biden immediately addressed the shooting, but didn’t condemn the ensuing violence until Wednesday in a video posted on social media.

Despite Trump's failure to bring the pandemic under control his job approval rating continues to be high while Biden's lead in the polls is shrinking. The United States seem to have a higher tolerance for avoidable death by guns or viruses than other societies have. It is not the only point that makes it exceptional.

Posted by b on August 27, 2020 at 17:39 UTC | Permalink

Comments
« previous page | next page »

Jackrabbit @199

Indeed, all the white adults who got shot were also looking for trouble, and they too found it.

Lots of trouble to go around.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 13:50 utc | 201

I'll just place this here gently:

Rittenhouse

and step back now.

Posted by: Bemildred | Aug 28 2020 13:53 utc | 202

@ Posted by: Walter | Aug 28 2020 13:47 utc | 198

When everybody has a gun, nobody has a gun (arms race principle). Hence, people will begin to search for AR15s (so they can subjugate the people with Glocks).

Then, when everybody has an AR15, nobody will have an AR15. Rocket launchers will be the new AR15.

Then, when everybody has a rocket launcher, nobody will have a rocket launcher. Enter the tanks.

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 13:54 utc | 203

Biswapriya Purkayast | Aug 28 2020 13:49 utc | 200

Well, yeah. Dangerous though. Internal contradictions is one way to see it, sort of like the internal contradictions of nitroglycerin, highly metastatic.

Occupation of some sort will be necessary to prevent poisons from getting out as the power of the States falls away.

How far that goes...nobody knows.

Yeah. Starvation.

Posted by: Walter | Aug 28 2020 13:57 utc | 204

: vk | Aug 28 2020 13:54 utc | 203 (Everybody will)

Where has that happened? It is a nice theory though.

Any half-qualified fitter or machinist can make rockets and machine guns and all that stuff.

I have not seen that they do so. Most people just want to have a gun, and most do not want to shoot at anybody.

Posted by: Walter | Aug 28 2020 14:10 utc | 205

vk @203

True, but you cannot get from where we are right now to a gun-less society in one easy step. The public doesn't trust the government, and for good reason. Also, there really are armed thugs roaming the streets, and disarming the law-abiders really will leave them defenseless against the criminals (cops themselves will tell you that there is no way for them to arrive at the scene of a call in under ten minutes, but violent criminals will have you dead in under a minute, so your only hope is to be able to defend yourself).

You need a real knock-down, drag-out revolution that totally upends power relations in society before we can think about going gun-less, and even then law enforcement will have to be continued for some time by armed community militias until the dust settles. Such militias, with mandatory rotating duty from the entire community, would conceivably be able to safely sequester weapons in armories over time as the threat from criminals abates, but this is a long term process. The capitalist power structure outlawing weapons is not going to get us there.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 14:12 utc | 206

Most of the US is rural and people need their guns for practical use, and, as you see, the cops are not helpers but enforcers and thugs (at least often)...so practical use means also creating the disinclination to steal and assault... Everybody knows that busting into a house is liable to result in getting shot.

Posted by: Walter | Aug 28 2020 13:47 utc | 198

If deterrence worked, statistics about burglary rate would clearly show USofA as a best-of-class, which it is not really.

Posted by: Herr Hesser | Aug 28 2020 14:16 utc | 207

Circe@117 wrote:
You are being fooled again by a crass, immoral, hypocritical master manipulator and b is carrying his water twisting truth into a pretzel.
_____________________________________________________________

well yes of course that is what trump is and you are one of the people being manipulated. The reason trump is going to win in November is because the people you are rooting for are working harder than even trump is to achieve that outcome.
You are cheering for one head of a two-headed monster.

Posted by: jinn | Aug 28 2020 14:17 utc | 208

@ Posted by: Walter | Aug 28 2020 14:10 utc | 205

They just want a gun because the majority of the American population still doesn't own one (most of the guns are concentrated in just a portion of the population, who owns large arsenals, i.e. are either survivalists and/or gun collectors). A normal handgun is still effective.

But, in a riot scenario, where everybody is expected to own a handgun, and where you need to kill a large number of people (with handguns) as quickly as possible, then an AR15 is necessary.

But then, the Antifas will quickly realize that, and will begin to buy AR15s, too. Tanks will be then necessary to stop a horde of rioters with AR15s.

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 14:27 utc | 209

vk | Aug 28 2020 14:27 utc | 208 Your argument about the escalation to rockets and AR's seems to have been defeated by "the majority does not.." argument. Sorry about that.

Posted by: Walter | Aug 28 2020 14:40 utc | 210

What kind of a country allows a 17 year old punk carry a loaded assault rifle around anywhere? Is that what the Yanks mean by "FREEDOM".

That is sick and absolutely a very nasty accident primed to happen. The parents should be charged along with the politicians and the whole rotten system.

FREEDOM my ass.

Posted by: arby | Aug 28 2020 14:41 utc | 211

'Mostly Peaceful' Rioting And Looting Is Helping Trump's Campaign.
Republicans actively incite and encourage violence for their law and order strategy.
Trump wants violence, and by God, his allies are going to give it to him. They don't much care who gets hurt or killed along the way.

Posted by: Iguana | Aug 28 2020 14:41 utc | 212

Bemildred @Aug28 13:53 #202

From your link:

  • BLM is not a protest movement, it’s not even a civil rights movement. It’s a Trojan Horse funded by sinister globalist troublemakers

    BLM is blamed for Antifa violence.


  • The Democrats and the media have encouraged this madness from the very beginning by praising the protests while downplaying the magnitude of the damage.

    That the rioting helps Trump and that establishment Democrats (Republican-lite) support Trump is completely overlooked.


  • But it will change and change won’t be pretty. The state will deploy all its assets to reclaim its monopoly on violence. You can bet on that. Security will be reestablished with brute force and an iron fist. A Crackdown is coming and the innocent are going to be crushed along with the guilty.

    Just as I said @Aug28 13:47 #199. Antifa+militia violence are a presecription for a stronger police state.


  • !!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 28 2020 14:43 utc | 213

@ Posted by: Walter | Aug 28 2020 14:40 utc | 209

But the principle still applies: a 17-year old had to get an AR15 to subdue gun-armed people.

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 14:47 utc | 214

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 28 2020 14:43 utc | 212

We go from "defund the police" to "stronger police state" in what, a week? Two?

I think Whitney has lost his mind lately, but he has a lot of company.

I feel like I'm watching a nuthouse and commenting on the residents.

Is the US government up to the job of running a police state? They have lots of plans, everybody has a plan, but I doubt it. The only parts of the US government still working well are legacy systems like the USPS and they are under attack.

Posted by: Bemildred | Aug 28 2020 14:53 utc | 215

vk @208

Every household in my neighborhood has guns. I know because when there were threats of riots a few months back we had a neighborhood meeting and discussed the issue of protecting the street, and we did a rough inventory of what was available. Everyone would bring their own weapon. We agreed that if we had to we would set up roadblocks at the top and the bottom of the street and do checks on anyone entering (a couple streets to either side have set up similar plans). Some small trailers, sawhorses, and old tires were earmarked for blocking the road (my back yard has a bunch of old tires in it now because I am near one end, lol! I have to remember to keep mosquito dunks in them). We have all of each others' phone numbers now with a list of ones to call if there is a problem. This is actually a pretty good idea even in the absence of rioters as we activated the call list over a possible tornado a few weeks back.

Your scenario is a little dramatic. I doubt the rioters will try to get past basic barricades defended by light arms. They will just move on and look for easier targets.

Oh, and by the way, there are only two other white families on my street. Two families are Black, and the rest (the majority) are of Latin American heritage. Your basic Southern US blue collar working class residential urban neighborhood. I would guess gun ownership is much lower in gated and/or suburban upper middle class areas.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 15:03 utc | 216

Movement for a People's Party

We’re building a major new progressive populist party in America. A party that is completely free of corporate and billionaire money. Because Wall Street has two major parties and working people have none.

A large majority of Americans want a major new party, support progressive policies, and want money out of politics. With more than sixty thousand members and supporters like Nina Turner, Jimmy Dore, and Cornel West the Movement for a People’s Party is making it happen.


<> <> <> <> <>

The Democratic Party wants to lose to Trump.

F*ck 'em.

Make your vote count! Vote People's Party.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 28 2020 15:05 utc | 217

"The United States seem to have a higher tolerance for avoidable death by guns or viruses than other societies have."

Um, you mean like Mexico, that has a per-capita murder rate nearly five times that of the United States? Or South Africa, with a muder rate maybe seven times higher?

https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5/rankings

It should be noted that the murder rate has almost nothing to do with gun "control" (see again, Mexico) but rather social cohesion. As the United States is torn apart in the drive by the corporate elite to divide and conquer, look for our murder rate to spike, and gun control laws won't help. I mean, they never have anywhere else.

Posted by: TG | Aug 28 2020 15:07 utc | 218

The kid was an EMT, and was there to defend property. He was being interviewed by a reporter from the Daily Caller at the time he was attacked by the pedo felon and others. The reporter has given his account to the police, all of which directly corresponds to the video and autopsy, and every move made by Rittenhouse was in defense. He would no doubt be dead if he had not. One of the people with the now dead pedo felon was clearly armed in pictures from right before, and the guy who got hit in the arm was holding a hand gun he clearly intended to use (he was also a felon and should not have had the gun).

A 17 year old should not have been out there, but lest we forget the AVERAGE age of men killed in wars is 19. He handled himself very well, did not shoot anyone who was not a threat to him, and did not fire indiscriminately.

The left is livid that those who go out to burn, loot and destroy the livelihoods and lives of others have been opposed with force. Others are delighted.

Posted by: Farquad | Aug 28 2020 15:08 utc | 219

I agree with whoever wrote that it come down to culture.

The culture in the US and the West are the the result of the social contract that has finance be a private owned and controlled element. It created the top/bottom class structure which has been glossed over with left/right brainwashing.

The elite have manufactured the ignorance underpinning the misdirected protesting we are seeing and all the "undesirables" who have been created by the system of inequality of opportunity. The manufacturing of ignorance is called agnotology and came out of the study of the decades long propaganda by the nicotine industry about cancer......are we sure, we are sure, we are sure, we are sure that smoking causes cancer?

There are a few of us out here saying that private banking causes the culture you are seeing in America and China is showing the way with purely sovereign central banking and finance. We see the rest of you as victims of agnotology.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 28 2020 15:12 utc | 220

Bemildred @215: "We go from "defund the police" to "stronger police state" in what, a week? Two?"

That is faster than I was expecting, but it was entirely predicted. When the masses do not find a solution in one direction, they will reverse course. The rioters are not offering a solution, so the masses turned.

Of course, police state doesn't provide a solution either, but I think it is something for which the establishment has been preparing for some time, at least since the Reagan days. Whether the establishment can effectively manage it is another question. I'm thinking "No!" is the correct answer.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 15:15 utc | 221

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 14:47 utc | 213

So if everyone has a pointy stick then nobody has a pointy stick? Do we ban the pointy sticks? When subjugation is the goal escalation will occur almost anywhere on the lethality scale.

Posted by: One Too Many | Aug 28 2020 15:16 utc | 222

@ Posted by: One Too Many | Aug 28 2020 15:16 utc | 222

Pretty much. There's even a saying for that in America: "never bring a knife to a gun fight".

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 15:23 utc | 223

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 12:04 utc | 177 Stop wasting your time with virtue signalling and CSI-Miami here in this forum.

Agreed. This thread was worse than even the pandemic threads. Rush to judgement on both sides.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Aug 28 2020 15:29 utc | 224

I see the usual suspects have all now conceded that Trump will win and the Democrats wanted this to happen.

Talk about "stretching to fit."

It never dawns on these people that the Democrat party is indeed populated by totalitarian morons who genuinely thought that chaos in urban centrals would reflect poorly on Trump. The estab. believed that with the "mishandling" of the corona pandemic - which is itself a dubious claim as states themselves have the means and the authority to enact measures through reasoning that might have made the Fed response a moot point - that the chaos in the streets would effectively offer up the finishing blow on a double whammy that would end POTUS' chance.

The fact that these posters can not even entertain the occam's razor aspect of what I describe above is indeed frustrating.

Ted Wheeler in Portland, and Gov. Kate Brown, with her absolutely muted response to the 80 days of rudderless demonstrations, have realized that the Golem is out of control and is now trying to pull back to heel. Too late, guys. Idiots!

As are other Dem executives in states the U.S. over.

There are many many actors in these interesting times.

The urban, the rural, the conservatives, the libs, police unions, political and education establishment, local governments, the Fed...

Grasping at straws, no one seems to want to cut to the heart. But this situation is ripe for assigning your worldview onto it and then saying, "Look, it fits!"

But you can't argue the point reasonably that DJT isn't, actually!, playing 4-D Chess. Remarkable dude, that one.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Aug 28 2020 15:30 utc | 225

Farquad @Aug28 15:08 #219

This is the kind of disinfo that has to be called out.

... the AVERAGE age of men killed in wars is 19.

Soldiers are trained and led. This disturbed 17-year old kid was off on his own in a riot.

=
The left is livid that those who go out to burn, loot and destroy the livelihoods and lives of others have been opposed with force.

You mean the imaginary "Radical Left" that Trump uses as a strawman? Antifa is not "the left" and there are suspicions that it is an organization that is used by the government/establishment to defeat protest/dissent.

I don't know left-leaning person that condones rioting and looting. They may understand the anger, but they don't endorse it.

"The Left" is rightly livid that a young white man with a rifle and police-militia connections is allowed to walk past police after an after-curfew shooting while a black family man is shot seven times in the back at point-blank range because of thought crime.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 28 2020 15:31 utc | 226

@ Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 15:03 utc | 216

You prove my point: when something becomes common, it becomes part of your daily life, part of your "landscape", i.e. part of your culture. You don't notice it because its part of your routine, like the clothes you wear.

When riots and militias become more common in the USA, AR15s will also become more common, they will also be part of the landscape, part of the culture of the country.

But then, if the riots escalate to civil war, AR15s may not be enough. White supremacists are already talking as if only them can own AR15s - but Antifas can do the same. The principle of the Arms Race stands.

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 15:36 utc | 227

Despite increasingly large percentages of voters in the USA polled expressing concern with violent crime on par with covid, the Dems failed to address it during the convention. Thus the supposed lead Sloppy Joe had is no more. Add to that many USAns see the Dems as overtly and/or covertly supporting the BLM/Antifa consortium and are none too pleased about it.
Granted the RED-BLUE uniparty is a ruse, but there does seem to be factionalism of exactly what nature I cannot say for sure.
If I were a gamblin man, I would place bets on a landslide for the Orange Man Bad.

Some of the more more refined EU types have expressed exhasperation at the notion that USAns have access to firearms and that is in some way barbaric. Taken more broadly, possession of weapons systems has throughout history has been a great equalizer (amongst other things). I often ask the the broader question of 'who gets to own and operate weapons systems'....
In the case of the USA, guns are deeply embedded in the culture. As the final stages of unravelling begin, firearms will play a crucial part. The biggest gun-buy in history is happening right now. A small group of lefties advocating that armed goons confiscate weapons from citizens is more of the fantasy or "magical" thinking mentioned by posters above.

What needs to be understood is that everybody in the USA(minus the pseudo pacifistic lefties) owns firearms, criminals included. With the police castrated there is very little deterrent left, and violent crime is doubling and growing from there. To all the posters who are decrying self defense and justifying the violence and destruction on the part of the mostly peaceful protests: There comes a time when reality kicks in. It may be when you are personally threatened, or someone of something nearby you is harmed. All the whining and keyboard exhasperation will not help you or keep you safe. If you have nothing to worry about, then that is great, but perscribing behavior to people who's situation you neither relate to nor understand is misguided and a bit pompous. In reality without defense you are a victim.

I keep hearing all the outrage about the young man who engaged in CQB and managed to escape after dispatching the assailants. I wont wade into this (I'm with Gruff et.al.) but I will note that if you dont wanna get shot it's best to stay outta the way. Nobody in the situation is innocent. Watch as these situations unfold around the nation more and more, and you will note that fortune favours the prepared. If it matters so much to the keyboard SJWs, then go out there and express your outrage.
No? That's what I thought. Then your options are slinging words, or just STFU.

Posted by: Chevrus | Aug 28 2020 15:39 utc | 228

letting everyone have a gun might not be a good idea... what could possibly go wrong?? but i suspect the gun fanatics will rip a strip off me here...

Posted by: james | Aug 28 2020 15:39 utc | 229

@ Peter AU1 | Aug 28 2020 5:46 utc | 150 quote

"the way i see it, the us problems go much higher than the looters or the cops. it goes higher than their 'elite'. it is the culture." looks the same to me here too..

Posted by: james | Aug 28 2020 15:43 utc | 230

@ Posted by: Chevrus | Aug 28 2020 15:39 utc | 228

The cops who unloaded their Glocks on the back of the man with a knife didn't look "castrated" to me. On the contrary: they seemed very emboldened with their toys.

--//--

@ Posted by: NemesisCalling | Aug 28 2020 15:30 utc | 225

The Fed can't be part of the equation because it has been practically ineffective since at least Janet Yellen: no inflation and employment goals have been met (not even close) since the last years of Obama.

It's very unlikely the Dems were worried about Powell making the American economy click. None of his policies were ever close to doing something right. None.

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 15:48 utc | 231

@jackrabbit #226

The legitimate state organs appropriately trained to use force to stop violence (police, national guard, etc.) are being prevented from acting by Democrat politicians in the places where the riots and mob violence is occurring. So others are now taking up that role.

The rioting is occurring exclusively in areas controlled by the left, therefore the weight of evidence is against your assertions.

I'm not a young man and I used to be a liberal, for all the usual reasons that appealed to classic US liberals. What you fail to grasp is that the people behind this have nothing in common with classic liberals, and those who once sought to bring the benefits of society to more people, to make a more inclusive, fair and just society, will be unable to ever make common cause with them. The useful idiots out burning cities seek rather the destruction of the society, not the improvement of it. They are manipulated into this so as to remove any remaining coherent social identity, leaving only fragmented, isolated and weak tribal groups, and thus there will be no way to oppose the consolidation of power at the top. The foolish Democrat officials in these states are also useful idiots, thinking perhaps this is just a tool to win power in the next election, but it is far more than that. They will all ultimately find that they have been conned into destroying their own worlds for the benefit of others, but that will be too late.

Of course normal left-leaning people don't condone rioting and looting, they are simply too slow to understand what is happening, and to wedded to their "team" ideology to adapt rapidly enough to avoid the trap.

Posted by: Farquad | Aug 28 2020 16:00 utc | 232

Posted by: TG | Aug 28 2020 15:07 utc | 218

Logic behind what you linked can easily be reversed… with those very same stats (remember Twain's third lie type). Sudan, Kazakhstan, Pakistan or Rwanda are safer places than the USofA, if we use that logical scheme.

A relevant comparison should be done w/ other developed countries (Intentional homicides rate /100,000 people):

-USofA: 5.30
-Canada: 1.80
-UK: 1.20
-France: 1.30
-Germany: 1.00
-Australia: 0.80
-Italy & Spain: 0.70
-China: 0.60
-Japan:0.20

Fortunatly, US brainwashed-by-MSM-narratives citizens can still console themself w/ that one:
-Russia: 9.20

Posted by: Herr Hesser | Aug 28 2020 16:01 utc | 233

The city was under siege by rioters with intent to do property damage and citizens were in fear of their lives. Under these circumstances gun laws don't matter. Would rather be judged by twelve than carried by six. Those commenting here questioning the actions of a 17 year old; due to his age, might I say, demonstrate by their talk that they don't have much life experience. This person demonstrated by his actions that he is very capable of defending himself. I'm sure the military is looking at this with envy. I am sure his actions will inspire others to take action against this rising tide of misfits terrorizing our communities.

Posted by: Conrad Lyman Wareham | Aug 28 2020 16:06 utc | 234

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 14:47 utc | 214 But the principle still applies: a 17-year old had to get an AR15 to subdue gun-armed people.
Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 15:23 utc | 223 There's even a saying for that in America: "never bring a knife to a gun fight".

These are the comments you get when someone knows absolutely nothing about firearms.

1) There is a saying that a handgun is only good for fighting your way to your rifle - which is absolutely true. Handguns are carried for convenience and because carrying a rifle around is inconvenient and also frowned on even in places where open carry is legal. But when you are facing multiple opponents, a rifle is indeed the way to go. Rifles are better than rockets and tanks - because you can kill the guy with a rocket from a distance further than he can see you - if you're a good sniper - and you can kill the tank guys if they are dumb enough to stick their heads out - which is why tanks are *always* accompanied by infantry.

2) You can bring a knife to a gun fight. It's been done. There's even a rule about it: the Tueller Drill or the 21-Foot Rule. Anyone within 21 feet (actually closer to 30) is a serious threat because he can close the distance and stab someone before that person can draw his weapon. Most police take 1.5 to 2 seconds to draw their firearm. Someone fast can close over 21 feet and stab in that time. It's been proven - you can go on Youtube and watch it being demonstrated by martial artists like Doug Marcaida: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fjMpn7JCJ0

3) The presence of firearms in civilian hands has been demonstrated to counter US crime literally hundreds of thousands of times per year in the US. One estimate is that it deters crime as much as the presence of the entire US police force. Gun Rights and Self-Defense

4) Culture, history, and government laws affects weapon choice and usage patterns and this varies extensively around the world. The US has a history of being armed since the US was formed on a frontier, which necessitated firearm use for hunting and self-defense as well as revolution and civil war. So it's no surprise that the US continues to have a significant portion of the population armed. There are an estimated 400 million firearms owned by 80-100 million Americans. Due to fears over the pandemic and the protests, another five million people purchased guns for the first time so far this year. 16-20 million people have concealed carry permits - that doesn't count the criminals who carry.

Complaining about US gun ownership is a waste of time - it's not going to change. Outlawing or attempting to confiscate firearms from this many owners will fail miserably no matter how it's done. The more successful confiscation is, the bigger the black market that will form. A minimum of ten percent and a likelihood of thirty percent of those 400 million firearms will not be confiscated - that's 40 million to 120 million firearms will remain on the street - not counting those owned by criminals. Everyone who owns a firearm will become a concealed criminal. The prison population will soar based on the level of success of prosecution of those who disobey the law.

It's physically and socially impossible to disarm the US. People like Biden who think they can are delusional idiots. Not to mention they're liars - Dianne Feinstein, when she was mayor of San Francisco, did a publicity stunt where she turned in a .38 that she owned. Then someone found out she had permits for *two* guns. Then there's the famous picture of Obama being quoted as saying "guns don't protect anyone".

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Aug 28 2020 16:07 utc | 235

@227 vk and others re: open-carry ARs

Is it Sweden or Finland that has similar open-carry laws where citizens shop their grocery stored with ARs strapped to their backs?

Hasn't been a detriment to their culture empirically or has led to more gun violence.

Armed citizentry does not, by itself, carry any meaning withthe exception of letting government and would-be bad guys who you need to avoid.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Aug 28 2020 16:13 utc | 236

"Of course, police state doesn't provide a solution either, but I think it is something for which the establishment has been preparing for some time, at least since the Reagan days. Whether the establishment can effectively manage it is another question. I'm thinking "No!" is the correct answer."

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 15:15 utc | 221

Yep, me too, I think they are/will-be fully occupied with their own disputes, fighting over what's still left, etc. Good time to found a new religion too.

Posted by: Bemildred | Aug 28 2020 16:13 utc | 237

NemesisCalling @225: "...totalitarian morons who genuinely thought that chaos in urban centrals would reflect poorly on Trump."

Yes and no. Those you refer to are absolutely convinced of the moral superiority of the delusions that their imagined "wokeness" is based upon. While there is an element of Trump Derangement Syndrome involved, it is this moral high ground that they imagine themselves holding that compels them to continue to support the riots. Furthermore, it is the absolute nature of their faith in their own moral superiority that makes them blind to any possibility of compromise or common ground, which in turn makes conflict inevitable.

This isn't really about Trump, but is rather a deep culturally-based misunderstanding. Trump merely rides the wave of a pushback in society against this delusional "wokeness" and its associated sense of absolute moral superiority.

Obviously the Dems and the neoliberal mass media are not secretly trying to get Trump reelected by acting like moronic asshats and pouring gasoline on the fire. They actually believe they are doing the right thing, and that the moral superiority of "Ol` Gropin` Joe" is obvious to all. To say that Trump is their man rather than part of a stupid plot to get Clinton elected that went wrong is the same as saying the coronavirus epidemic is plot to enrich big business and make people wear masks rather than a bioweapon effort to take down China that went horribly wrong. These narratives that turn reality on its head are just attempts to preserve the illusion of infallibility of the establishment and make their screw-ups look intentional.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 16:17 utc | 238

@ Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Aug 28 2020 16:07 utc | 235

1) Rocket launchers can be used to blow entire homes with the whole family inside. Or blow someone inside a car or a truck. It has a usefulness beyond the normal fire arms.

2) Yes, but, as a rule, the gun is mightier than the knife.

3) That only demonstrates the principle of the arms race. The moment the civilians got their hands on guns, the bandits had either to stop robbing or to up the ante.

4) Yes, I know that. But it doesn't stop them of getting better guns (you're not using your 19th Century Winchester, are you?)

I know the USA will never be disarmed. My argument is the exact opposite: that there will be an arms race as the riots continue and escalate.

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 16:19 utc | 239

Yeah,the left is livid alright, this kid killed two of their goons and maimed the 3rd and they couldn't harm him. So now the only card left is to use state power to defame and jail him and throw away the key.

Imagine that, a 17 year old making leftists seething. Pathetic and typical.

If the right does not rally upon this kid like a mountain, all is lost and it effectively proves you can't defend yourself against criminals and rioters.

Posted by: Smith | Aug 28 2020 16:20 utc | 240

Also the guns are non-issue, no guns, you have crossbow, bow, blade, bats, pipe, knife, bomb.

Especially in case when a civil war starts brewing, guns will suddenly show up out of nowhere.

Ban guns, not ban guns, it does not matter. What matters is will and courage.

Posted by: Smith | Aug 28 2020 16:35 utc | 241

These are the comments you get when someone knows absolutely nothing about firearms.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Aug 28 2020 16:07 utc | 235


I would be inclined to think that American people are way too much familiar with firearms and that it is one of their major problems (among a vast mass of others).

By the way, international stats on burglary and homicide rates don't really confirm some of your assertions.

Posted by: Herr Hesser | Aug 28 2020 16:41 utc | 242

vk @239: "I know the USA will never be disarmed. My argument is the exact opposite: that there will be an arms race as the riots continue and escalate."

Oh, I thought you were advocating some liberal fantasy.

Yes, there will be an "arms race", but it won't really go so far as tanks on a wide scale. Anyway, the antifa and BLM types are mostly white upper middle class "kids". I call them "kids" despite many being thirty-something virgins living in their parents' basements because most are economic neuters with worthless college degrees, no work experience, and no prospects for real employment. As society breaks down, the safe spaces these kids depend upon will dwindle, and along with those vanishing safe spaces their "activism" hobbies they use to get out of their parents' houses for a few hours at night will also dry up. They will not make it far in the arms race.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 16:50 utc | 243

Interesting how we suddenly have all these omniscient commentators who all know exactly what occurred AND why, along with the usual attempts to misrepresent what others have written. The prevailing modus is as usual to divide and rule as one regular barfly noted way back up the thread. The kid, his parents and Kenosha PD will be in the courts quite some time with the most damage happening to the kid and his parents. The analogy I echoed--that the kid went hunting--seems to have dropped like a ton of bricks onto some overly sensitive heads; and contrary to accusations, I never cited one video or linked to one. My effort's centered on the unconstitutional judicial doctrine that allows police to kill without any accountability, which is at the root of this entire problem. And given the very interesting attacks I received, some entity(ies) don't want that to be made into the focus of any movement since the prevailing doctrine enables the conflict so divide and rule can continue its normal operations.

Those defending the kid's actions need to think about that doctrine as it affects them too--it takes away everyone's constitutional rights, not just those with a certain skin color or hairdo. And therein lies the rub. Those defending the kid are actually defending the State and Class that oppresses them and keeps them from their own aspirations to provide for the wellbeing of their families--Ultimately, they are fighting themselves while thinking they're engaged in fighting others.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 28 2020 16:53 utc | 244

...
But you can't argue the point reasonably that DJT isn't, actually!, playing 4-D Chess. Remarkable dude, that one.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Aug 28 2020 15:30 utc | 225

Yep.
And it's hilarious to see the ADD folks, who've allowed themselves to be bullied into believing that Trump is an ignoramus, stumbling into MoA to flaunt their gullibility and bewilderment...
Especially the ones blaming b for noticing circumstances which might help Trump...

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Aug 28 2020 16:59 utc | 245

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 16:19 utc | 239

"1) Rocket launchers can be used to blow entire homes with the whole family inside. Or blow someone inside a car or a truck. It has a usefulness beyond the normal fire arms."

True. But it's not better than a firearm in an insurgent situation.

"2) Yes, but, as a rule, the gun is mightier than the knife."

True - if the gun owner knows how to use his weapon properly. Evan Marshall, a former Detroit Police Sergeant and a well-known firearms expert, once said his biggest nightmare was being caught in an elevator with an expert knife wielder. He figures he would win the fight but would lose an arm doing so. He may have over-estimated his chances. Also, more people die from knife wounds than gun shot wounds; IIRC the figure is 20-25% from gun shots, 30% or more from knife wouonds.

"3) That only demonstrates the principle of the arms race. The moment the civilians got their hands on guns, the bandits had either to stop robbing or to up the ante."

Of course it's an arms race. But based on examinations of criminals firearms vs civilian firearms, and the level of criminal training in the use of firearms, civilians are way ahead. Most criminals simply don't have the competence. A NYPD study showed that cops hit what they're aiming at only 25 percent of the time. Criminals only hit what they're aiming at 11 percent of the time.

"I know the USA will never be disarmed. My argument is the exact opposite: that there will be an arms race as the riots continue and escalate."

No, there are limits to that - unless law enforcement breaks down completely. The existing firearms laws and background checks work very well. Most criminals get their guns from criminal associates or relatives who own guns. When criminals do things like rob gun stores or National Guard armories - which is fairly rare - they do so basically to get firearms to sell to other criminals. Also, they are subject to the same problem I mentioned before - carrying around a rifle draws attention. If you're a criminal, you can't do it - especially since getting caught with a firearm while a prior felon means an automatic extra five years in prison. Most criminals carrying and using firearms are members of gangs or drug dealers - they mostly carry for self-defense from other criminals just like ordinary citizens do. A few are home invaders - they carry because they know many Americans have guns. And a lot of them end up getting shot by those home owners because it's easier for the home owner to have a shotgun or AR or AK at home than for the criminal to carry one to the scene of the crime.

I'm not saying that there won't be further cases of people involved in these protests using rifles. But it will be relatively rare. And it won't go beyond rifles because it's just too hard to get, carry and use military grade weapons unless you military experience and have contacts in the military with access. Some militia groups do have such contacts and former military in their organization. But why bother getting weapons you can't effectively use when you can easily buy ARs and AKs? Especially since the minute someone uses a hand grenade or a LAW, the Feds will be all over them. Most of the militia groups are infiltrated by either the FBI or the Secret Service or ATF - or all three. If they get military grade weapons, the Feds will know it and the militia group will end up like Waco.

Bottom line: There may be escalating violence - in fact, it's almost a certainty. But it won't involve large amounts of rifles on both sides - not until the organizations on both sides actually do organize. And when that happens, the National Guard will come in with precisely the armored cars and machine guns you talk about.

I can see small-scale insurgencies starting at some point. But they won't succeed in being more than a nuisance because law enforcement is too efficient in this country and the bulk of the population won't support any such groups. And those groups, if they attack ordinary citizens, will find out what the home invaders and other private property thieves know - Americans shoot back. Until they can get significant numbers of Americans on one side or the other, it's not going to be a "revolution" or a civil war on either side. Most people simply won't get involved in that - not until they themselves are desperate enough to risk getting shot.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Aug 28 2020 17:05 utc | 246

@ Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 16:50 utc | 243

They may not be smart, but they certainly have survival instinct: if you mow them down with an AR15, they will get AR15 to mow you down. It's that simple. That's why humans invented diplomacy, rules of escalation, treaties, laws, politics etc. etc. - so they can keep themselves from gratuitously killing each other.

Unless, of course, you're advocating for a preemptive extermination of the American Left. Then we're in another kind of territory with another set of implications.

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 17:06 utc | 247

Posted by: Jason | Aug 27 2020 22:43 utc | 92

I have always tried to wrap my head around the riddle why rioters burn down their own areas but don't go where rich people live.

There are presumably a lot of psychological, sociological and policing explanations but it renders them ineffective.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 28 2020 17:06 utc | 248

Posted by vk:
"The cops who unloaded their Glocks on the back of the man with a knife didn't look "castrated" to me. On the contrary: they seemed very emboldened with their toys."
What I meant is that entire urban police forces are being defunded, thus the deterrent to criminals is far less. This is non-fiction being played out as we type. Hope that clears it up.
The man you mentioned had a warrant for his arrest, a violent criminal record and yet he chose to walk away from armed men and head for his vehicle within which could be a gun. If he had followed instructions he would probably not be paralysed. What would YOU do?!

Posted by: Chevrus | Aug 28 2020 17:10 utc | 249

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 16:50 utc | 243 They will not make it far in the arms race.

Agreed. This is why I don't see significant chance of either a "revolution" or a "civil war". There are only a small percentage of people who are likely to be willing and *able* to participate - and they will be hounded by the state if they do. This could change, of course, historically it's happened. But it's not likely within the next X years in this country. Not unless a significant percentage of the population gets a lot more desperate than they are now. I don't think the upcoming economic disaster is going to be enough to make people desperate enough to risk their lives in actual combat against either the state or other perceived enemies. Protests, yes - civil war, no. Revolution - hell, no.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Aug 28 2020 17:12 utc | 250

@243 Not strictly virginal in this case WG. The girlfriend has a nice turn of phrase. Here is a 'clear unbiased' account from Huffpost which neglects to mention armed protesters....

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/victims-kenosha-jacob-blake-protest-202413691.html

Posted by: dh | Aug 28 2020 17:12 utc | 251

@karlof1 #244

Interesting how those who have not bothered to do any investigation still feel entitled to pontificate. Here, let me help:

Rittenhouse.pdf

Posted by: Farquad | Aug 28 2020 17:14 utc | 252

vk @247

Nobody "mowed them down with an AR15"before they were torching neighborhoods, and nobody will "mow them down with an AR15" when they find less destructive hobbies. Simple as that.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 17:18 utc | 253

vk @247: "preemptive extermination of the American Left"

Perhaps these upper middles class kids really are all America has for a "left"? You yourself described the American middle class as embracing fascism some weeks ago, so if they are what there is of the "left" then "exterminating" them as you suggest wouldn't make much difference.

But the fact is that these upper middle class kids are not the ones who will be rounded up and dumped in the FEMA camps when the US population gets fed up with the rioting. Because the rioting is being done under the cover of support for Black people, the backlash will end up being against Black Americans. These upper middle class kids doing the rioting will slink back to their gated communities and pretend they had nothing to do with it.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 17:31 utc | 254

@ Posted by: Chevrus | Aug 28 2020 17:10 utc | 249

Your version of the facts was already debunked by the Wi-DoJ itself.

--//--

@ Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 17:18 utc | 253

Yeah... good luck with that.

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 17:45 utc | 255

@vk: Then post it.

Posted by: Chevrus | Aug 28 2020 17:53 utc | 256

@vk #247

Nice strawman - nobody was "mowed down" at all. The AR-15 is as semi-auto, and the kid shot those who were attacking him.

As for "advocating for a preemptive extermination of the American Left" - are you saying it is the American Left burning down cities? Well, had not realized the American Left was taking responsibility for that, but if you will go into cities and towns and burn loot and destroy, then you should expect resistance and ultimately retaliation.

Posted by: Farquad | Aug 28 2020 17:54 utc | 257

Chevrus @Aug28 17:10 #249

What I meant is that entire urban police forces are being defunded ...

It's been only about two months since the first calls to defund the police. They police are not yet defunded or substantially weakened.

In fact, "defund the police" - a perfectly valid response the stonewalling that protestors have received - has become a rallying cry to strengthen the police and the police state.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 28 2020 18:00 utc | 258

It appears according to bail bonds HQ website (looks legitimate (?)), the first white rioter that 17yr old Kyle Rittenhouse apparently shot and killed, 36yr old Joseph D. (not "Andy", as widely stated in media reports) Rosenbaum, multiple pedo-sex offender felon, has been imprisoned in the Arizona State penal nearly continuously for 13-14 years from 2002-2016 (or 2017).

Joseph D Rosenbaum Prison record: https://www.bailbondshq.com/arizona/azdoc-inmate-JOSEPH/172556

During time in prison, Rosenbaum racked up a long (>30) list of infractions/violations, which included assaults/throwing things on staff/inmates, assault with weapon, arson, weapons, drug/narcotics possession, sex acts/stalking, tampering with security equipment, disobeying guards orders, etc.

It also appears that following his release, there is no record of Rosenbaum ever being registered as a sex offender in the State of Wisconsin, as required by law.

This raises the question of whether he was actually/ever a legal resident of Wisconsin, as has been reported/alleged widely in by the media.

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/kyle-rittenhouse-arrested-for-murder.7025072/page-10


Posted by: gm | Aug 28 2020 18:03 utc | 259

@ Posted by: Chevrus | Aug 28 2020 17:53 utc | 256

You're late for the party, but I'll post it again (from two days ago):

Wisconsin DOJ Names Cop Who Shot Jacob Blake, Says No Bodycam Footage of Incident Exists

--//--

@ Posted by: Farquad | Aug 28 2020 17:54 utc | 257

The kid only killed 2 because he was stopped before he could kill more, as far as evidence goes (the video only shows the mass shooter being immobilized, it doesn't show him "in self-defense mode").

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 18:03 utc | 260

Farquad @252--

So, what am I supposed to do with a copy of the charge sheet? Where does it relate to anything I've written?

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 28 2020 18:06 utc | 261

@vk #260

"The kid only killed 2 because he was stopped before he could kill more, as far as evidence goes (the video only shows the mass shooter being immobilized, it doesn't show him "in self-defense mode")."

Apparently you've no knowledge of the incident at all, as you are making utterly false statements which can easily be confirmed with only a modest effort. There is very clear video and audio, detailed eyewitness testimony and an autopsy of the fist guy killed.

The kid was never immobilized at all, he stopped when his assailants were down and no more attacked, then walked away and tried to surrender to the cops who ignored him.

Posted by: Farquad | Aug 28 2020 18:13 utc | 262

@karlof1 #261

You found it interesting (and I assume baffling) that others knew something about what had happened. Since you clearly didn't I provided you with a link to an eye-witness account and the autopsy of the first guy killed. There is also very good video and audio of everything that happened if you were to be interested in facts. No doubt it does not show what you'd like it to show, or fit narratives you'd like it to, but it's there nonetheless.

Posted by: Farquad | Aug 28 2020 18:20 utc | 263

We all know US Regime foreign policy has no bearing or influence on it's domestic conduct.

A nation that spends as much as the entire world combined on militarism would expect a docile citizenship right?
A nation that has constantly been at war bombing shooting overthrowing lying stealing and destroying abroad should have a peaceful honest friendly society right?

How could there possibly be any societal connection to the most murderous Regime in History post WW2? How could there possibly be any influence at home when a Nations Govt/Military has murdered 10's of millions globally in wars of profit and aggression? No connection at all.

Any American with a sense of decency should be pointing their weapons in one and only one direction. US Regime are the terrorists. Both "parties" are disgusting and completely corrupt (translation= most Americans are disgusting human beings).

Perhaps the good news for the rest of the planet is that propagandized retarded Americans will be murdering each other taking some pressure off the Global Death toll abroad.

God Bless America and its raping murdering torturing conduct.

“The greatest purveyor of violence in the world : My own Government, I can not be Silent.”

― Martin Luther King Jr. 1967


Us is a failed Nation.

Posted by: CitizenX | Aug 28 2020 18:21 utc | 264

vk @260: "The kid only killed 2 because he was stopped before he could kill more..."

Sorry, but you are as wrong about this as you are about the mandatory arrest of Blake that Blake resisted. The kid stopped shooting because the adults pursing him and trying to hurt him stopped their pursuit, which allowed the kid to escape to the safety of the police line. You should watch the videos that the bunny posted. If you had then you would know this.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 18:26 utc | 265

@ Posted by: Farquad | Aug 28 2020 18:13 utc | 262; @ Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 18:26 utc | 265

He did so because he knew the police was on his side, thus was safe when he crossed its sphere of influence. He then surrendered because, had he continue to fight the rioters, he would have died.

Politics never stop. You two should read the content critically, not literally.

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 18:37 utc | 266

The delusional thinking and "I'll completely ignore what the available video evidence clearly shows and keep repeating some pseudo-logical bullshit i just pulled outta my ass and I will surely win the argument by boring everyone to death" attitude displayed by commenters such as vk and karloff is proof positive that idealogues have simply replaced reality-based thought with ideology.

Its easier than acknowledging reality, or engaging in real critical thought and is one of the reasons Trump won the last election and will probably win the next one

Posted by: Contra-Conspiraloon | Aug 28 2020 18:46 utc | 267

re: Kiza | Aug 28 2020 7:46 utc | 156

Kiza, I look forward to the posts by psychohistorian and karlofi. It seems to me that you are the person acting as a troll here.

Posted by: Perimetr | Aug 28 2020 18:47 utc | 268

@vk #266

Oh, ok, sure - I'll take the word of someone who posted complete falsehoods and clearly knew nothing of what happened. I have no doubt you know exactly what he was thinking. You should try observing what actually happened rather than trying to make what you observe fit your narrative.

Posted by: Farquad | Aug 28 2020 18:48 utc | 269

To those making a fuss about the state lines issue - the guy is literally right now awaiting EXTRADITION. Do you know what that means? It means he traveled across state lines and is accused of doing so to commit a crime. He'll be lucky if federal charges are not brought as well as a result.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Aug 28 2020 18:50 utc | 270

@Contra-Conspiration -

So would you call the Qanon phenomenon or viral "Plandemic" YouTube videos largely circulated by Trump supporters or the Wayfair child trafficking theory "reality based thinking"?

Posted by: _K_C_ | Aug 28 2020 18:52 utc | 271

Good luck with finding a jury In Kenosha that will convict him of shooting criminals trying to burn down businesses owned operated and used by the citizens of Kenosha

Posted by: Contra-Conspiraloon | Aug 28 2020 18:54 utc | 272

@William Gruff -

You are equally guilty of speculation when you say that the kid was being pursued by ONLY people who wanted to "hurt him." In fact after he and his right wing militia goon buddies confronted some people about "arson" (in this case a dumpster well removed from any structures), threats were likely made by Rittenhouse and his "crew" of uninvited, mostly out-of-state vigilantes and an escalation likely occurred causing one of the "rioters" to challenge him to a fist fight or got in his face to yell at him. See how easy speculation is?

What you're doing is writing excuses for insane behavior that, back in the day - even the "old west" was solved by a fair fight or a duel. What the kid did was no different than what the American right complains about re: Chicago. MOST of the killings there are based on revenge or "self defense" because the police are not interested in responding to those areas. So if this was "self defense" by the kid, then the same label should be applied to MOST of the gun violence in Chicago. Would you agree?

Posted by: _K_C_ | Aug 28 2020 18:57 utc | 273

vk @266

Oh, come now! You are being infantile on this point. At all instances where the kid shot the adult rioters he was obviously trying to escape from them, and at no point did he try to pursue them. Had he wanted to murder there were plenty of other opportunities, but he very precisely shot only the ones who were an immediate threat to him.

The cops are supposed to be on everybody's "side", and most of the time they are. Indeed, that is why they were responding to a domestic disturbance call in a Black community in the first place. Someone called for help and they tried to help. If they were such racists as you imagine then why respond to calls for help from Black neighborhoods at all? Just let the Black people kill each other.

You are being irrational on this particular issue. Clearly you are allowing yourself to be carried away with emotions.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 19:00 utc | 274

I'm glad someone already brought up "Umbrella Man" from the early days of the George Floyd protests in Minneapolis.

Has anyone arguing so stridently here for one side or the other considered that there may be many such persons, intentionally 'infiltrating' otherwise peaceful protests and inciting looting and violence?

And as a secondary question - Has Umbrella Man, who it is said has been identified by authorities, been brought into custody or charged? The "leftist" US news media is silent on it, as well as on any potential other incidents sparked by either pro-cop infiltrators or right wing, white supremacist gangs (such as was the case for Umbrella Man). There was one story in the Star Tribune (linked by previous commenter on page one of comments) and that's about it. Isn't this an important element of the violence and looting that has been going on? How widespread and common is it? Apparently neither the right-wing media/Internet or the allegedly "leftist" US corporate media are interested.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Aug 28 2020 19:06 utc | 275

@ Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 19:00 utc | 274

So, let me see. I'm a 17 year old boy who crossed States (he's facing extradition right now) with an AR15, in direction of a big riot.

What would I do in this scenario? Throw myself right into the eye of the hurricane, thus not lasting more than 5 minutes, or position myself into a privileged position, between the cops and the rioters, facing the later, so I can shoot and retreat?

Hmmm... my guess is I would do the latter, because I want to kill but I don't want to die.

The video doesn't give us the overall view of the battlefield. You don't know if the boy knew or not the lines. My guess is he's not a complete retard and new the lines.

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 19:08 utc | 276

i am not blaming the kid... i just think it would be easier if kids weren't as exposed to guns as they are in the usa... but i realize i am dreaming.. it is like trying to put the genie back in the bottle... she got out and the rest is history... i go back to peter au's comment - "the way i see it, the us problems go much higher than the looters or the cops. it goes higher than their 'elite'. it is the culture." but the conversation revolves around the kid for the most part... he is too young to know what he is doing for the most part... he is probably realizing here now that there are some serious implications in acting out what he would have only previously entertained in his head..

how about all the violent video games and hollywood movie industry and what it has been cultivating 24-7? like peter says - this is in the culture and not going away any time soon.... richard - rsh - might be right - only protests and no civil war and etc... either way, i go back to my first statement @1 - empire in fast decline is what it looks like to me...

Posted by: james | Aug 28 2020 19:09 utc | 277

_K_C_ @273: "You are equally guilty of speculation when you say that the kid was being pursued by ONLY people who wanted to "hurt him.""

I never said that those pursuing him ONLY wanted to hurt him. I leave open the possibility that there were those among the pursuers who wanted to thank him for his efforts earlier in the day cleaning up the mess from the previous night's rioting. The video evidence is quite clear, however, that the kid only shot ones intending him harm.

I repeat: There will be no conviction for first degree murder.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 19:10 utc | 278

gm @ 259

A prisoner with that jacket does not get paroled. Once theoretically paroled that guy does everything possible to break back into prison. Would not have been loose as long as that “record” says he was. Complete non-person. PTB creating a narrative. An amazingly threadbare narrative.

Posted by: oldhippie | Aug 28 2020 19:13 utc | 279

vk @276

Apparently the kid did start "in the middle" where he was helping to protect someone's business.

Your emotions on this are really ruining your logic, which I normally respect a great deal.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 19:16 utc | 280

Also to William Gruff - Wisconsin "Stand Your Ground" laws are different than those in other states. It is much harder to prove self defense if what I have read is correct. Furthermore, albeit a very dumb decision to chase him down on the part of his pursuers both before and after he shot the first victim, from my time "on the streets" it was common to see an armed guy talked down, tackled and disarmed or chased off. Instead of running, however, this guy continued acting as though he was a warrior retreating from an advancing enemy attack. The video I've seen does not back this viewpoint, however.

The still shot you posted earlier from Daily Caller shows two individuals with guns, but that shot has been heavily altered. In the original video, it is only the second guy who got shot with a gun that he had just drawn but not pointed at the shooter who was on the ground after tripping. But the other guy clearly didn't have a gun, so why is the right wing media/social media editing one in? What if the other guy just wanted to disarm Rittenhouse and hold him to be arrested?

The long and short of it is that there's a real pussy mentality in many Americans, including cops and gun nuts. They think that lethal weapons are the only way to go when in a potentially violent (or violently worded) confrontation. If this kid was such a law enforcement worshiper it speaks to the lack of de-escalation and physical hand-to-hand combat training they obviously don't receive. As b mentioned in the post, the cops in the case of the man shot 7 times in the back had him under control...or SHOULD HAVE. He wasn't very big, so why can't 4-5 cops just gang tackle him? IF he did have a knife in his hand it sure as hell wasn't a butcher knife and the blade couldn't have been longer than 3". But why would he still have a knife in his hand, as those on the right are arguing, if he had already previously been tackled and tazed? From what the mainstream media is reporting, the knife was on the floor board of his car which also contained two young children. But it's all speculation by me and anyone else at this point. Yes he had warrants and yes he resisted arrest, but 7 shots in the back instead of a decent football tackle and restraint is absolute bullshit.

Same thing with the shooting of Daniel Shaver in Arizona. Any non-pussy cop would have simply dove on the guy and physically restrained him. Instead, as many cops now do, they barked conflicting or impossible to follow orders at him until they decided he did something that gave them an excuse to shoot him. Watch that video if you have a strong stomach and haven't already. Do you see any justification in that shooting? The jury apparently did and let the murderer cop off scott free.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Aug 28 2020 19:16 utc | 281

james @277: "...probably realizing here now that there are some serious implications in acting out what he would have only previously entertained in his head..."

But that is true for everyone who went out that night to riot as well.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 19:19 utc | 282

wg - true...

Posted by: james | Aug 28 2020 19:20 utc | 283

Gruff says: " The video evidence is quite clear, however, that the kid only shot ones intending him harm."

I disagree. What evidence of that do you see that actual harm was intended. Do you mean harm to his fragile ego or legitimate deadly physical harm - something that I am not aware of happening to anyone other than the protesters in any of the melees across the country?

I agree that first degree murder will be difficult to convict him on. BUT if the feds get involved because he brought a firearm across state lines with the intent to possibly use lethal force to "protect property" that was not his to protect, then we could indeed see Murder One charges and a conviction or two.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Aug 28 2020 19:21 utc | 284

@ Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 19:16 utc | 280

"Apparently"? So you can speculate?

It doesn't change the logic. The kid came from the outside (another State, even), so the only way (unless you're assuming he was airborne!!??) he could've approached Kenosha was from the periphery of the riots. He certainly knew where the police was positioned and where the rioters were positioned. We know he knew because he did his incursion and "came back", to the cops' line.

The most likely scenario is this: he came to the city (from the outskirts, of course) and positioned himself to the police side (because they are his comrades, he's fighting on their side), then, like a good 17-year-old, he decided to play vanguard and went too deep into the rioters' lines.

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 19:21 utc | 285

Gruff - Again, if what I have read is correct, the confrontation that led to the shootings was over a dumpster fire. Literally - he chose to THREATEN deadly force to people lighting a dumpster on fire, well removed from a structure and then when he was called on it or called a pussy, and rightly so, he ended up shooting several people and killing a few of them. Why was he running in the first place? And why wouldn't the normal person's perception of a guy carrying a gun be that he can still be subdued or talked down and disarmed and held for arrest after the first shooting?

Your answer to that last question will be a statement on the American id. We have devolved into a bunch of frightened wimps whose only defense against a POSSIBLE black eye or bloody nose is deadly gun violence.

He didn't have a right to cross state lines and use lethal force to allegedly defend another person's property. It is you that is allowing emotions to cloud your analysis here, not VK.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Aug 28 2020 19:26 utc | 286

@_K_C_ #248

I disagree. What evidence of that do you see that actual harm was intended. Do you mean harm to his fragile ego or legitimate deadly physical harm - something that I am not aware of happening to anyone other than the protesters in any of the melees across the country?

Then you are clearly not very aware.

Posted by: Farquad | Aug 28 2020 19:26 utc | 287

Farquad - please provide some examples then. I want you to point me to instances of counter-protesters or pro-cop vigilantes like this kid being killed. I said "deadly physical harm" which means being killed. SO.....when can I expect a few examples? Heck - even one!

Posted by: _K_C_ | Aug 28 2020 19:28 utc | 288

    The still shot you posted earlier from Daily Caller shows two individuals with guns, but that shot has been heavily altered. In the original video, it is only the second guy who got shot with a gun that he had just drawn but not pointed at the shooter who was on the ground after tripping. But the other guy clearly didn't have a gun, so why is the right wing media/social media editing one in? What if the other guy just wanted to disarm Rittenhouse and hold him to be arrested?

    Posted by: _K_C_ | Aug 28 2020 19:16 utc | 281

Utterly delusional. You're proving my point

The QAnon-types have nothing on you guys when to comes to delusional thinking.

Completely bonkers is what you are


Posted by: Contra-Conspiraloon | Aug 28 2020 19:30 utc | 289

vk @285

More emotional nonsense, VK. The kid came from closer than most of the rioters. Arioch is a bedroom community for Kenosha, even if it is in another state. The kid was present in Kenosha doing clean-up work from the previous night's riots in the daytime, which is to say before the rioters crawled out of their parents' basements and headed to town to enjoy their night of rioting.

Get the sequence straight --> Kid was already in Kenosha all day then the rioters showed up after sunset for their evening fun.

Even though there will be lots of pressure to throw the book at this kid, there will be no conviction for first degree murder. Manslaughter? Maybe, but certainly to first degree mmurder.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 19:31 utc | 290

Gruff wrote

I repeat: There will be no conviction for first degree murder.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Probably not but conviction on some lesser charge of murder is likely. You don't get to violate firearm laws that result in death and not be held responsible. Its like if you are drunk and involved in an car accident even if you are not at fault you are held responsible.

One thing that strikes me as most notable is the rioting seems to have stopped pretty abruptly. There have been a couple evenings of peaceful protest with all the bad actors having crawled back into their holes.


Posted by: jinn | Aug 28 2020 19:35 utc | 291

@Contra-Conspiraloon. Am I "bonkers"? If so point me to where you see TWO armed people threatening Rittenhouse in this unedited video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdMTghlrFiw
Skip ahead to roughly 4:50 for when that part of the confrontation begins in the middle of the street. There are TWO people with guns - One is Rittenhouse, the other is the guy he shot. Daily Caller and other right-wing outlets are claiming that there were multiple individuals threatening him with guns and they either produced or shared a doctored photo which had two people with pistols in their hands in the same frame as Rittenhouse while on the street. Watch the video and tell me how many armed people you see.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Aug 28 2020 19:37 utc | 292

Probably not but conviction on some lesser charge of murder is likely. You don't get to violate firearm laws that result in death and not be held responsible. Its like if you are drunk and involved in an car accident even if you are not at fault you are held responsible.

One thing that strikes me as most notable is the rioting seems to have stopped pretty abruptly. There have been a couple evenings of peaceful protest with all the bad actors having crawled back into their holes.


Posted by: jinn | Aug 28 2020 19:35 utc | 291

------

And a jury of Kenosha citizens, fed up with the looting and burning of their town, will have noticed that sequence of events too: that the looting and Rioting ended after several looter/rioters were shot by a 17 yr old kid trying to defend himself from attack.

The chances of this kid being convicted of any sort of murder charge by a jury made up of Kenosha citizens is fast approaching zero

Posted by: Contra-Conspiraloon | Aug 28 2020 19:42 utc | 293

@_K_C_ #286

What is this nonsense you keep spouting about the dumpster fire. There is no video evidence of that, and prior to Rosenbaum going after him he was being interviewed:

Detective Cepress interviewed McGinnis and indicates the following: Before the shooting,
McGinnis was interviewing the defendant. The defendant told McGinnis that he was a trained
medic. McGinnis stated that he (McGinnis) has handled many ARs and that the defendant was not
handling the weapon very well. McGinnis said that as they were walking south another armed male
who appeared to be in his 30s joined them and said he was there to protect the defendant.
McGinnis stated that before the defendant reached the parking lot and ran across it, the defendant
had moved from the middle of Sheridan Road to the sidewalk and that is when McGinnis saw a
male (Rosenbaum) initially try to engage the defendant. McGinnis stated that as the defendant
was walking Rosenbaum was trying to get closer to the defendant. When Rosenbaum advanced,
the defendant did a “juke” move and started running. McGinnis stated that there were other people
that were moving very quickly. McGinnis stated that they were moving towards the defendant.
McGinnis said that according to what he saw the defendant was trying to evade these individuals.

And you can go do your own research, it isn't hard. You've been spouting off nonsense you've made up in your head, go do a little work and educate yourself.

Posted by: Farquad | Aug 28 2020 19:44 utc | 294

jinn @291: "...but conviction on some lesser charge of murder is likely"

Sure, no doubt about that at all. Like I said, manslaughter is probable.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 19:44 utc | 295

@ Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 19:31 utc | 290

Then even better for him, as he certainly knew the geography of the city in a more detailed way. He knew where to fight, and where to retreat.

Unless, of course, you're insinuating the rioters literally woke him up, by surprise, with torches and pitchforks at hands. Then he's very stupid.

--//--

@ Posted by: Farquad | Aug 28 2020 19:26 utc | 287

Oh, I don't know. Maybe the AR15 in his hands?

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 19:45 utc | 296

@Contra-Conspiraloon. Am I "bonkers"?

-----

Dude, you, vk, and several others here are like the PR Dept of the firm "Bonkers 'R us!" PLC, Headquarted in the great city of Bonkersville USA!

Posted by: Contra-Conspiraloon | Aug 28 2020 19:47 utc | 297

vk @296

Do Molotov cocktails and handguns count as torches and pitchforks?

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 19:48 utc | 298

Sorry Farquad but that's utter projection on your part on both counts. It's you making up or believing in fantasies that don't hold up to scrutiny. Do YOUR research.

Re: dumpster - They were putting out a dumpster fire and threatening people who continued to approach it.

Re: counter protestors or pro-law enforcement vigilantes being shot or otherwise killed in ANY of the violence across the nation for the past few months - Exactly what I suspected. You're doing exactly what you're accusing me of doing: throwing convenient preconceived bullshit at the wall and hoping it sticks. You can't find a single such example. Are you intellectually honest enough to admit it now?

Posted by: _K_C_ | Aug 28 2020 19:49 utc | 299

Contra-Conspiraloon @297

In his defense, VK is not normally this irrational.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 19:49 utc | 300

« previous page | next page »

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Working...