Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 27, 2020

'Mostly Peaceful' Rioting And Looting Is Helping Trump's Campaign

The Civil War of 2020 continues apace.

2020

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After three months of continuous clashes in Portland between Antifa rioters, who hide behind peaceful protests, and the police, the mayor is finally concerned about the damage:

Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler said Wednesday he hasn’t done enough to focus on damages caused by some city protests over the last three months and the fallout from coronavirus. He called on the community to help him come up with better solutions to city issues.

During the last months the Magnificent Mile in Chicago was looted - twice. Yesterday new riots and looting occurred in Minneapolis after a rumor of another police killing incited some people:

Police Chief Medaria Arradondo tried to dispel rumors that spread on social media about the death of the unidentified Black man, who was suspected in a Wednesday afternoon homicide and fatally shot himself on the Nicollet Mall as officers approached several hours later. His death, which was captured on city surveillance video and released by police within 90 minutes, nonetheless sparked protests and unrest in the heart of downtown.

The video confirmed the police account of what happened and showed the man glancing over his shoulder before pulling out the gun and firing, then collapsing to the ground as a half-dozen witnesses ran away with their hands in the air. The officers, one of whom had his gun drawn, shooed a remaining witness away and kicked the suspect’s gun away before performing chest compressions.

Last Sunday police in Kenosha, Wisconsin proved to be too incompetent to arrest a man they had already had under control. They shot him 7 times into the back when he was trying to get into his car. Nights of rioting followed. Buildings were burned down and businesses were looted.

Yesterday a white teen with a semi-automatic weapon had the stupid idea to join others in 'protecting the businesses' in Kenosha from further looting. He ended up killing two people and wounding more after he was attacked by some of the rioters. The teen was arrested and he is facing charges but I doubt that he is guilty of more than sheer stupidity and manslaughter in self defense.

The cycle of violence will likely continue. There are too many racist in the police and the level of U.S. police training seems to be abysmal. There is also too much tolerance for violence within the general community.

Politically this plays into Trump's law and order campaign. The Democrats have lauded Black Live Matters and the protests but have hardly spoken out against the rioting and looting that comes with them.

This CNN chyron from yesterday evening is an expression of their position:


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'Mostly peaceful protests' are like the 'moderate rebels' in Syria - propaganda constructs that do not exist in the real world. The people who owned the burning cars and whose businesses were destroyed will not be relieved by such phrasing.

Joe Biden's attempt to swing Republican voters to his side has failed. At the same time he has rejected many of the issues progressives favored. This will hurt the election turn out the Democrats will need. Add to that the unrest which plays into Trump's hands. The Democrats who fear that are right:

“There’s no doubt it’s playing into Trump’s hands,” said Paul Soglin, who served as mayor of Madison, on and off, for more than two decades. “There’s a significant number of undecided voters who are not ideological, and they can move very easily from Republican to the Democratic column and back again. They are, in effect, the people who decide elections. And they are very distraught about both the horrendous carnage created by police officers in murdering African Americans, and ... for the safety of their communities.”

Trump, of course, is positioning himself as the antidote to urban unrest. "So let me be clear: The violence must stop, whether in Minneapolis, Portland or Kenosha," Vice President Mike Pence declared in his Republican convention speech Wednesday night, with Trump looking on. "We will have law and order on the streets of this country for every American of every race and creed and color."

Republicans had chided Joe Biden and other Democrats for not calling out the violence in the aftermath of the Blake shooting. Biden immediately addressed the shooting, but didn’t condemn the ensuing violence until Wednesday in a video posted on social media.

Despite Trump's failure to bring the pandemic under control his job approval rating continues to be high while Biden's lead in the polls is shrinking. The United States seem to have a higher tolerance for avoidable death by guns or viruses than other societies have. It is not the only point that makes it exceptional.

Posted by b on August 27, 2020 at 17:39 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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Just a word of warning, "ContraConspiraloon" - I've been reading MoA for almost a decade and those who bring nothing but name calling and repetitive argumentative attitudes along with an unwillingness to actually have an honest debate don't last very long around here.

I provided a compilation of every angle of the shooting in the street. There is only one person with a weapon other than Kyle Rittenhouse. Do you dispute that? If so, point out the other one.

Daily Caller and other right wing news outlets have published a doctored still photo from one of those videos. Do you dispute that? If so, point out - in the video I linked, not the doctored still - which other person had a gun.

It's really pretty straight forward. You're either interested in a good faith discussion/debate or you're a childish, name-calling brat here to muddy the waters. Best of luck if it's the latter.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Aug 28 2020 19:53 utc | 301

Are you fucking serious Kiza? Karlof1 a troll manipulator??????Yer a fucktard

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Aug 28 2020 19:53 utc | 302

@ wg 300, LOL!

Posted by: james | Aug 28 2020 19:54 utc | 303

Sorry b I shouldn't have been so abusive w language in regards to kiza calling Karlof1 a troll. There is only so much one can take......The most prolific diseminator of actual useful info besides yourself on this blog is labeled a troll is too much I say

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Aug 28 2020 19:58 utc | 304

gepay | Aug 27 2020 19:27 utc | 29

There is a question of who exactly is turning these protests into property and injurious riots. What are their motives? These present riots are unlike the 60s where the violent protests were the last resort of the powerless to get change.

I am not a US citizen, I have never been to the US, so my opinion may be worthless, but looking from outside it seems to me that the most probable explanation of all the facts available to me is that this is "divide & rule" writ large. The a large part of common people of the USA is in a terrible situation economically and this is/has been frequently a cause of revolutions. What better way of staving off a revolution than having a race war?

Posted by: foolisholdman | Aug 28 2020 19:59 utc | 305

So many people here are essentially arguing or making excuses along the lines that it's a good idea to use a skateboard to attack someone who has a semi-automatic rifle.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Aug 28 2020 20:00 utc | 306

@ Posted by: Contra-Conspiraloon | Aug 28 2020 19:47 utc | 297; @ Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 19:48 utc | 298

We should stop debating on Rittenhouse under the terms of if he's the ideal petit-bourgeois or not. It seems he gunned down two non-rioters (maybe even people on his side of the battle):

Rittenhouse charged with multiple counts of homicide

According to the criminal complaint, Rittenhouse was speaking to a reporter named Richard McGinnis just before the first shooting at about 11:45 p.m. at a used car lot on the corner of Sheridan Road and 63rd Street.

So, he was not "defending his property". He was at a parking lot, guns in hands, in guard. The journalist, McGinnins, is our main witness here.

McGinnis told police he was walking with Rittenhouse and warning the teen he was not handling his weapon well. Shortly thereafter McGinnis then saw Rosenbaum and others moving quickly toward Rittenhouse. According to the complaint, Rosenbaum appears to throw a plastic bag at the teenager.

The complaint states that Rosenbaum appears to be unarmed throughout the encounter. McGinnis told police he saw Rittenhouse raise the gun.

Oops. That's so self-defense! Plastic bags are very dangerous, after all! Kids really do suffocate in them!

But the comedy doesn't end there:

“McGinnis stated that the first round went into the ground and when the second shot went off the defendant actually had the gun aimed at Rosenbaum. McGinnis stated he did not hear the two exchange any words.”

[...]

Other people on the street then shout that Rittenhouse had shot someone as they see him running down Sheridan Road.

According to the complaint, video shows Rittenhouse falling as he runs away. Huber is seen approaching with a skateboard in his hand. Huber tries to grab Rittenhouse’s gun with one hand while hitting him in the shoulder with the skateboard with his right hand. “The defendant then fires one round which can be heard on the video. Huber staggers away, taking several steps, then collapsing to the ground.”

So, Huber is the first to decisively try to grab the kid's gun, and people only begun to pay attention to him after he killed the first person, not after.

Rittenhouse then points his gun at Grosskreutz, who freezes and ducks and takes a step back, according to the complaint.”Grosskreutz then puts his hands in the air … then moves toward the defendant who aims his gun at Grosskreutz and shoots him.”

Yep, looks like first degree murder to me. For all we know, Grosskreutz could even be a non-rioter.

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 20:01 utc | 307

Apologies for the poor phrasing and typos!

Posted by: foolisholdman | Aug 28 2020 20:02 utc | 308

@_K_C_ #299

What is this BS you're pushing? The link you provided does not contain the text string you showed, or anything at all concerning Rittenhouse being involved with the dumpster. Instead it gives the exact same information I did. The term "dumpster" appears 6 times on that page, none associated with Rittenhouse. You clearly have access to the correct information but are still making utterly false statements. Why?

Posted by: Farquad | Aug 28 2020 20:06 utc | 309

@vk #307

Grosskreutz was a felon armed with an illegal handgun. He feigned surrender and and then pulled the gun, but was not fast enough.

Posted by: Farquad | Aug 28 2020 20:10 utc | 310

Farquad - 1. The hyperlink text provided was not intended to be a direct quote from the article. That's not how that works. But you could be right - I am not in the US and that site is blocking me from viewing, but I read numerous accounts yesterday on Reddit and Twitter that the group Rittenhouse was with was in fact putting out fires in dumpsters and threatening those who attempted to set more or confronting them during their activities. I will find a Twitter/Reddit link to back up what I'm saying shortly.

2. You conveniently ignored my challenge yet again to produce a single example of any counter protestors or pro-cop vigilantes being killed in ANY of the protests nationwide. Do you concede on that one?

Posted by: _K_C_ | Aug 28 2020 20:10 utc | 311

vk @307: "Yep, looks like first degree murder to me."

See, that's why I say you are thinking with your gut rather than your head here. You are trying to fit the evidence into your preconceived notion of what happened. When the courts acquit the kid of the crime that you currently think is obvious, please don't go fully off the rails and claim that the jury was all white supremacists and such nonsense.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 20:12 utc | 312

karlof1 @ 244, thank you. I will remind the folk who think guns are the answer and there's no way to eliminate them that Australia did a very creditable job back in the day, but only after a horrible crime spree by a person wielding an automatic weapon that shocked the country back into its senses.

The crazed folk on this thread boasting their active seige mentality is truly sickening. I hope we don't have to face a tragedy such as the one that brought Australia back to right behavior. This should have been tragedy enough to have a young man become the killer of two human beings before he has reached maturity and so many posts hereon praising that -- it is bestial. You are not helping this young man, and you are shaming your country in the eyes of the world. Well, I said before there was no energy in the Biden campaign. I take it back -- you are providing it!!

All I can hope here is that you are in the minority. I might even vote for Biden myself - never thought I would say that, but this thread has convinced me. And it will convince a lot of other people as well.

Posted by: juliania | Aug 28 2020 20:13 utc | 313

Rob | Aug 27 2020 20:05 utc | 38

How exactly is he supposed to make it better, when it's obvious to anyone with eyes and a functioning brain that Trump makes it worse?
Where's the problem? US politicians often proclaim obvious lies as TRUTH! Take almost any of Pompus Maximus's pronouncements as a striking example of what I mean.

Posted by: foolisholdman | Aug 28 2020 20:14 utc | 314

Rittenhouse then points his gun at Grosskreutz, who freezes and ducks and takes a step back, according to the complaint.”Grosskreutz then puts his hands in the air … then moves toward the defendant who aims his gun at Grosskreutz and shoots him.”

----

Tsk tsk vk.

No mention whatsoever that Grosskreutz had a (presumably loaded), automatic pistol in his hands. Not only that but he then proceeded to point it at Rittenhouse.

You know this, you've seen the same videos we all have seen

How very dishonest of you

----++

"Rosenbaum appears to throw a plastic bag at the teenager.
The complaint states that Rosenbaum appears to be unarmed throughout the encounter. McGinnis told police he saw Rittenhouse raise the gun."

Oops. That's so self-defense! Plastic bags are very dangerous, after all! Kids really do suffocate in them!

-----

Again having watched the exact same videos we all watchef, you know that there was another person very nearby, one armed with a pistol and firing that pistol, at the time Rosenbaum was attacking Rittenhouse.

How very dishonest of you to pretend you don't already know that

Tsk tsk vk.

Posted by: Contra-Conspiraloon | Aug 28 2020 20:14 utc | 315

So, we lost a lot of time for nothing.

Turn out this Rittenhouse kid was just a far-right snowflake showing off to a local reporter with his big and shiny AR-15, and couldn't take a little bit of bullying from local (possibly infiltrated) ex-felons on the loose. Hell, he was not even in the radius of action of the whole thing - the reporter saw everything.

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 20:21 utc | 316

@_K_C_ #311

I have corrected enough of you false claims, you can go some work if you are interested in knowing.

@juliania #313

Are these crazed folk the ones working hard to simply present the (rather easily verified) facts of what happened, in opposition to the falsehoods a few longtime MOA posters are pushing hard? Indeed, "Truth is Treason in an Empire of Lies".

Posted by: Farquad | Aug 28 2020 20:22 utc | 317

@ Farquad 317 -

You've corrected absolutely nothing. You've made counter allegations and refused to provide a scintilla of proof for any of them.

The simple fact of the matter is that ZERO counter-protestors or pro-police vigilantes have been killed in 2020 and you know it, but it hurts your right wing friendly narrative to admit it and you're just deflecting now. Meanwhile I can think of at least 4 protesters who have been shot, of which 3 have been killed in two different cities off the top of my head. So I ask for the last time for everyone to witness: Provide me with any proof that you might have of a counter-protestor or any other vigilantes being shot and killed or killed or seriously maimed in any other manner. Just ONE example and that's too much for you, eh?

Regarding the dumpster fire. This is the confrontation that allegedly - based on my sources - led to the eventual chase of and shooting by Kyle Rittenhouse. It could be incorrect, but in fact he is visible in this video. The Twitter user here is definitely pro-Rittenhouse. More information will surely come to light in the next week or two. https://twitter.com/zerosum24/status/1299423954797559808

Posted by: _K_C_ | Aug 28 2020 20:29 utc | 318

So, we lost a lot of time for nothing.

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 20:21 utc | 316

---

Nah, it wasn't a complete waste of time vk.

We found out that you are prepared to lie (by ommission) in order to further an idealogicallly-driven false-narrative

Posted by: Contra-Conspiraloon | Aug 28 2020 20:33 utc | 319

And a jury of Kenosha citizens, fed up with the looting and burning of their town, will have noticed that sequence of events too: that the looting and Rioting ended after several looter/rioters were shot by a 17 yr old kid trying to defend himself from attack.
_________________________________________________________
That's possible but maybe they will also have noticed that the rioting stopped when the militias strutting the streets with guns disappeared.

The riots stopped but the protests did not
The protests are all about the unfair administration of justice.
If that is a problem where you live then don't be surprised if there are protests that follow and don't be surprised if bad actors show up to take advantage of the situation.


Posted by: jinn | Aug 28 2020 20:37 utc | 320

_K_C_ @318

Thanks for the video. Obviously they were very peaceful (`specially that BLM guy in the corporate logo shirt with the automatic handgun). They were just upset that someone was putting out their dumpster fire, which is apparently symbolic of everything the rioters stand for.

It all makes sense now.

/s

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 20:38 utc | 321

@ Posted by: Contra-Conspiraloon | Aug 28 2020 20:33 utc | 319/315; @ Posted by: Farquad | Aug 28 2020 20:10 utc | 310; @ Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 20:12 utc | 312

Dudes, please, stop lying. You know you lost the argument. Stop trying transforming an inbred 17 year old kid playing vigilante in a parking lot a petit-bourgeois hero, it's hilarious at this point.

If that's what the right-wing American hero looks like, the BLM has nothing to fear, that's for sure.

In fact, this Kenosha riots don't seem to be that big or that dramatic. Just some higher intensity street gangs fight level of combat. Not that WWI-level of shit both liberals and conservative have been telling us from the rest of the world.

I'm beginning to suspect these riots/conflicts are not nearly as dramatic and intense as both sides of the political spectrum tell they are.

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 20:45 utc | 322

William Gruff @Aug28 11:18 #169

Yes, Rittenhouse was on the phone to the 911 operator.

You state this as fact but you could not know that it was true.

Kenosha News reporting (linked by _K_C_ @Aug28 19:49 #299) tells a different story:

“As the defendant is running away he can be heard saying on the phone (on video) ‘I just killed somebody,” the complaint states.

. . .

A friend of Rittenhouse spoke to a detective and told him Rittenhouse had called him and said he shot someone.


<> <> <> <> <>

Who was this "friend of Rittenhouse"? Is he in the militia? Was he part of the militia group that Rittenhouse was with that night? Could such communication be considered coordination/conspiracy? Will the militia members be named in Civil Suits?

I really hope they are so we can see what type of people these militia members are. I'd bet that they have members that have criminal records like the people that Rittenhouse shot. Then we can put an end to the bullshit that suggest that people with records are automatically up to no good and thus DESERVED to be shot/killed.

And was Rittenhouse and/or the militia PAID to "guard property" for untold hours in Kenosha that night? If so, those owners could lose their property via Civil Suits. And payment for services comes in many different forms.

Not too smart to bring along/hire a disturbed 17-year to guard property.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 28 2020 20:48 utc | 323

That's possible but maybe they will also have noticed that the rioting stopped when the militias strutting the streets with guns disappeared.

Posted by: jinn | Aug 28 2020 20:37 utc | 320

-----

I suspect the average jury-serving Kenoshan will probably see it a little differently than you do

Posted by: Contra-Conspiraloon | Aug 28 2020 20:51 utc | 324

You're welcome, Gruff. /s

Seriously I normally look forward to your commentary here, but you're off the rails on this one. Nobody is apologizing for any bad behavior on the part of the "protestors" (which I put in quotes because there has in fact been infiltration by right-wing groups and police - Umbrella Man - in case you missed about 19 other mentions of him), and nobody is saying it was a "good idea" to pursue a guy with a loaded semi-automatic rifle and attempt to hit him with plastic bags or skateboards.

What I and others are saying is that there are multiple angles from which to view what happened and that the situation is a lot more nuanced than: "Good samaritan with AR-15 crossed state lines to help protect property (that he was not asked to protect) and did the ONLY thing possible that he could to "defend" himself in the situation."

For one thing, state lines are state lines, regardless of whether I'm crossing from East Saint Louis (Illinois) into St. Louis proper (Missouri). Same laws apply as does the obvious-to-anyone-with-a-functioning-intellect fact that it's still crossing over a federally recognized state boundary.

For another thing, you yourself have shared what appears to be a doctored photo depicting TWO individuals approaching Rittenhouse in the middle of the street, as he was recovering from a trip and fall, brandishing firearms. In fact I shared a YouTube link with every video angle currently available and I don't see anyone except the ONE guy with what you allege is an "automatic" pistol. Who's to say that this person wasn't an infiltrator? Do you have any sources that speak to his reasons for being there that night?

Also, why doctor video stills to make it appear that there were more armed individuals involved in the second confrontation in the middle of the street when it's not necessary to do so? Could I be wrong and multiple viewings of multiple angles of the video can in fact be shown to depict two such individuals? Possibly, yes, but I've watched it a number of times and only one is there from what I see. You're not even willing to admit that the photo you shared might be doctored for partisan political reasons.

Also, I'm not defending ALL of the protestors or the ones who cocked their weapons, whether they were infiltrators or protestors or something altogether different. Nobody said this particular protest was completely peaceful. But if you can't acknowledge that numerous other protests started out peacefully and were goaded into violence by heavy handed police actions or set in motion by agents provacateur, then it's clear you're coming at this purely from an emotional standpoint and not a logical one.

As I said before, more details will emerge in the coming weeks. I don't think the prosecutorial strategy is even final yet. The feds could be brought in given the state line issue, regardless of whether one is a "bedroom community" to the other, as you allege. We don't know much about the other people involved that night yet. You can sit here and predict that he'll never be convicted of murder in the first, but it's pure speculation and projection on your part just as VK is speculating and putting forth his own opinions on the matter. For my part, I don't really care what he gets convicted of, so long as all the information comes out and we can all view the events from a more educated and comprehensive perspective.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Aug 28 2020 20:52 utc | 325

@_K_C_ #318

Rittenhouse is not in that video, although at least 3 of the thugs lighting the dumpster on fire are armed.

Keep believing your lies about no one being killed in the riots - although maybe you want to search for the one of the black security guard bleeding out while the looters take videos.

Posted by: Farquad | Aug 28 2020 20:52 utc | 326

vk @322 "I'm beginning to suspect these riots/conflicts are not nearly as dramatic and intense as both sides of the political spectrum tell they are."

Bingo!

I mean, it sucks for the people whose town it happens in, but most of the drama, including that surrounding the initial police effort to arrest Blake, is hyped far beyond its significance.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 20:52 utc | 327

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 20:45 utc | 322

The most amusing thing about reality-denying idealogues is when they double-down on the reality-denial.

Especially when they do it to try and distract from the fact that they have just been caught lying

Posted by: Contra-Conspiraloon | Aug 28 2020 20:55 utc | 328

@ jinn | Aug 28 2020 19:35 utc | 291
"Probably not but conviction on some lesser charge of murder is likely. You don't get to violate firearm laws that result in death and not be held responsible."

Assuming that Wisconsin succeeds in extraditing him (a virtual certainty in my opinion) then at the least he will be convicted of a Class A misdemeanor involving a firearm.

//
2019-20 Wisconsin Statutes & Annotations

948.60 (2) (a) Possession of a dangerous weapon by a person under 18.

(a) Any person under 18 years of age who possesses or goes armed with a dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor, and upon conviction may be fined not more than Ten Thousand Dollars ($10,000), or imprisoned not more than nine (9) months, or both.
//
Note that the short prison sentence will not show up on any background check for potential firearms purchasers, so Mr. Rittenhouse will most likely be able to go on purchasing firearms to his heart's content, for as long as he shall live.

Posted by: AntiSpin | Aug 28 2020 20:57 utc | 329

@313 juliania

Sounds like you made up your mind.

Too bad we can't bring you to the dark side.

But in all seriousness, if there were no guns in the U.S., let's say, then these idiots burning dumpsters on the street wouldn't even dare go out there.

They are not physical humans, in that the majority of them do not consider physical fitness a priority in life. And because the physically stronger in the U.S. do usually side with those advocating discipline and law, you would likely see many of these unemployed losers who are riotting, now, beaten to a bloody pulp in hand-to-hand violence.

So, you see, gun culture in the U.S. actually brings a well-disciplined and understanding ownership which do not show themselves on the street until absolutely neccessary. In a sense, you can say that this, gun ownership, does provide an opportunity to the disaffected and pathetic to burn storefronts and loot in the name of racial justice.

Unfortunately, this can only go on for so long and, indeed, can only encroach so far away from urban centers until those law-abiding gun owners feel like they need to engage.

The Black Bloc among them know this and this is why I can pull several videos of these guys shouting, "we are coming to a neighborhood near you!" to those watching from home. And, lookee here, that is exactly what happened and the result will continually to be exactly the same if they continue to encroach from their safe urban ramparts.

How this is surprising or horrifying to anyone is interesting.

You don't have your finger on America's pulse evidently.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Aug 28 2020 20:59 utc | 330

Farquad - Indeed, Rittenhouse is not in that particular segment of the video. But that was a group of which he was part at least at one point during the night. Other videos are all over Twitter that, if you're really interested, you will seek out and find for yourself. There is also a long one up on one guy's Patreon account (no fee or login necessary) of the events that led up to the shootings. So I urge you to take your own advice and do your own homework.

Regarding the "black security guard" (why does race suddenly matter to you here?) who bled out while being videoed, if it's the one I'm aware of - in Oakland - it was in fact a right-wing "boogaloo boy" who did it. So you can subtract that from your short list and add it to mine. Thanks again.

Do you too deny that there have been infiltrators and agents provocateur present at at least some, possibly most of the protests? Are you aware of these people shooting federal security (see above) or breaking out windows in Minneapolis to instigate further violence and perhaps justify a harsher federal crack down on civil liberties?

Posted by: _K_C_ | Aug 28 2020 21:15 utc | 331

@322 vk

No, not currently, but they have the grave potential to erupt as I laid out in my above post.

That is what makes the situation a powder keg. The shrill level of indecency and obfuscation and finger-pointing is building to a fever-pitch where there is potential for something that will make this AR-toting kiddo a "mole hill."

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Aug 28 2020 21:15 utc | 332

LOL @ Nemesis w/: "And because the physically stronger in the U.S. do usually side with those advocating discipline and law, you would likely see many of these unemployed losers who are riotting, now, beaten to a bloody pulp in hand-to-hand violence.

Thanks for the laugh. Is that why so many police are unable to subdue subjects such as Jacob Blake and then resort to shooting him 7 times....in the back?

Most MMA enthusiasts and athletes I know - both back home in the States and here in Europe are decidedly anti-right. The right-leaning men I know and see both in person and online are mostly skinny basement dweller types or beer gut sporting wannabe Hells Angels who probably smoke 3 packs a day. Aren't stereotypes fun? Thing is, I'm actually going from direct first hand knowledge and you're just fantasizing about a bunch of tough guy wingnuts beating down some granola eating tree hugging wimps. Again....LOL

Posted by: _K_C_ | Aug 28 2020 21:24 utc | 333

Automatic handguns (pistols, revolvers) exist in various forms but they are still relatively rare (and usually highly illegal but not always) despite how China is mass-producing simple modifications for Glocks for something like 5 USD.

Many would kill themselves trying to use them. They would be too shocked to let go of the trigger and would lose control and end up like that little girl with the Uzi. Dead.

Automatic Glocks have an insanely high rate of fire compared to normal "every-day" semi-automatic Glocks that anyone can buy legally almost anywhere in the world (and illegally absolutely everywhere).

So all the people talking about automatic what you are trying to say is semi-automatic. It's okay for you to not understand the difference and it's okay for you to tell the world that you don't understand the difference, but it's also okay to learn a little :)

Sorry for the snark*, it drives me up the wall :) (and since it can't reach me up here it will go for you).

*
1. "Adorably cute but very bitey creature from the game Half-Life. When released it will chase and try to bite any other nearby creature (Including its former owner) before literally bursting with excitement."
2. "Fictional animal species in Lewis Carroll's The Hunting of the Snark."

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Aug 28 2020 21:26 utc | 334

Acrimony and inanity is the sum of this thread as the underlying roots to the event are paved over just as the Troll Masters desire. I generally don't endorse articles, but having lived through 1968 and experienced much of its more important events up close and personal, I do endorse this one which was published well before the Kenosha event. The notion that 2020 feels very much like 1968 resonates with many as the roots causing both are the same--something the Post is unwilling to admit--but the surface events differ quite a bit as the article does acknowledge.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 28 2020 22:30 utc | 335

Richie McGinniss interview with Kyle Rittenhouse just before the shit hit the fan
(Note: not the full interview)

Rittenhouse: "Our job is to protect this business."

As I wrote @Aug28 20:48 @323, the business owner and the militia group that was protecting the business will likely be subject to civil suits over the wrongful death and injury.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 28 2020 22:35 utc | 336

@ 335 karlof1.. if i am not mistaken you were born in 1955.. that would make you 13 at the time of the events of 1968....

Posted by: james | Aug 28 2020 22:40 utc | 337

Sorry if this has been covered. I have not had time to catch up on posts.

It appears there may be a legal loophole for the 17y/o to be carrying the gun.
I spoke with a gun law expert in Wisconsin and he said while you must be 18 to open carry, there is language specifically designed to allow 16 and 17 year olds to carry “hunting style rifles”.

Needless to say, this could be another hot button issue going forward.

Posted by: Kevin | Aug 28 2020 22:42 utc | 338

Listen to him.

This is a kid. In a riot. With an AR15 assault rifle.

Anyone that portrays him as a hero is seriously warped. They wouldn't put themselves or their own kids into such a situation but they applaud that a disturbed kid was placed in that situation and celebrate the tragic result.

Sad.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 28 2020 22:46 utc | 339

Kevin @Aug28 22:42 #338

there may be a legal loophole for the 17y/o to be carrying the gun.

AR15 is an assault rifle, not a "hunting style rifle". The distinction is well known.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 28 2020 22:49 utc | 340

You all might be interested in the latest article on the Burning Platform, which provides a lot of detail plus photos of the men who were attacking Kyle Rittenhouse; one was a convicted pedophile who had spent nearly a decade in jail for sexual misconduct with a minor, who was required to register as a sex offender for the rest of his life. Another photo shows the second attacker (25 year old white male) slamming a skateboard down on Kyle's head. The third attacker was holding a pistol and was reportedly shot when he drew down on Kyle; there is a photo of him still holding the pistol after being wounded in his right bicep.

I don't think this is a simple case of murder. Sure, what the hell was the kid doing there in the first place with an AR-15? But why in hell have armed, violent protestors been characterized as "peaceful", why in hell have the police been ordered to stand down and been defunded as cities (run by democrats) burn? People attempting to defend their property have been characterized as "unlawful" when confronting a crowd threatening to kill them and burn down their homes. This is a recipe for civil war; perhaps that is the plan?

Posted by: Perimetr | Aug 28 2020 23:33 utc | 341

@ Jackrabbit | Aug 28 2020 22:49 utc | 340
"AR15 is an assault rifle, not a "hunting style rifle". The distinction is well known."

There is a distinction, but it is between two versions of the rifle that Rittenhouse was carrying, and not between his rifle and a "hunting style rifle."

An "assault rifle" is a low-to-medium power, magazine-fed, short-barreled rifle with select-fire capability. That is, it can be fired in semi-auto mode, or fully auto mode, or burst-fire mode. In other words, not a "hunting style rifle."

If Rittenhouse was carrying one of those, then by doing so he was committing a felony. If not, then he was carrying a rifle that is used by millions of hunters, usually in .223 caliber for small game, or .308 caliber for bigger game. In other words, a "hunting style rifle."

Posted by: AntiSpin | Aug 28 2020 23:40 utc | 342

@ 323

“... I really hope they are so we can see what type of people these militia members are. I'd bet that they have members that have criminal records like the people that Rittenhouse shot. Then we can put an end to the bullshit that suggest that people with records are automatically up to no good and thus DESERVED to be shot/killed.”

Wowwwww. Really? This has to win the award of the day for the most ridiculous comment in this thread. Are you really that desperate for attention and engagement that you are willing to even defend known felons and assume the militia have criminal record, without any evidence? Is this how you conduct objective discourse by spouting conjecture and assumptions? Or do you have an agenda?

What part of this is unclear to you? A known felon cannot legally possess arms. Period. There is no discussion here. Furthermore, felons with repeat violent offenses do not get the benefit of the doubt. Neither sympathy for that matter. Especially, when engaged in violent behavior, yet again.

Nothing in the behavior of Kyle R. and/or his cohorts suggest that they are WS or racist. Not one black person was hurt even though one attacked him. But he didn’t deem him a threat to his life since he didn’t have a weapon. And to turn your question to you, why is being part of a militia is automatically considered being a WS.?

Can’t, wanting to defend your community against outside criminals and looters, be reason enough to want to join a militia in lieu of lack of police protection? The constitution guarantees that right. Hell, even black communities are turning against these criminals by forming armed neighborhood watches and turning these thugs away. Plus, We see black militia out there. I bet you don't call them black Supremacist, do you?

In fact, more of these criminals should be taken out to send a message, and you will see a sharp drop in recruitment, since most of them are on payroll and have no conviction. Risking their lives for that paycheck will not be worth it. Unfortunately, that is the state of affairs we are living in and drastic times require drastic measures.

Racism is a disease that unfortunately has no cure. You have to find a way to contain it and that’s it. However, the suggestions that the events in Kenosha having a racist motivation is utterly dishonest, ridiculous and pure conjecture, as the results speak for themselves. The victims are all white. No black person hurt. There was no random shooting spree and the kid did not go there for killing blacks. Can we please dispense with the BS?

Sorry Dude, but you are out of your element. Leave this to others with an objective lens.

And for the rest of the armchair pundits here trying to directly or indirectly defend this band of thugs and criminals known as Antifa. You are not doing anything to help your reputation. Black community has legitimate grievances but there is no room in a civil society for Antifa and their violent tactics. None.

Posted by: Alpi | Aug 28 2020 23:58 utc | 343

The criminal complaint against Kyle Rittenhouse (Scroll down)

There are six charges:

  1. FIRST DEGREE RECKLESS HOMICIDE (Rosenbaum)
  2. FIRST DEGREE RECKLESSLY ENDANGERING SAFETY (McGinniss)
  3. FIRST DEGREE INTENTIONAL HOMICIDE (Huber)
  4. ATTEMPTED FIRST DEGREE INTENTIONAL HOMICIDE (Grosskreutz)
  5. FIRST DEGREE RECKLESSLY ENDANGERING SAFETY (Unknown)
  6. POSSESSION OF A DANGEROUS WEAPON BY A PERSON UNDER 18

Huber threw a plastic bag at Rittenhouse but never touched him. Huber was hit 5 times. AFAICT Rittenhouse only fired 4 times at Huber so one of the bullets must have exited and struck a different part of his body.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 28 2020 23:59 utc | 344

Alpi @Aug28 23:58 #343

I'm not supporting Antifa. Look back at my comments.

I'm denouncing a callous attitude that essentially amounts to anyone with a criminal record being worthless.

I've also denounced those that want to make Rittenhouse into some kinda hero. They are just encouraging other 17-year old useful idiots when they, themselves would not do the same nor would they like to see their own 17-year old placed in such a situation.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 29 2020 0:05 utc | 345

Here's the link for the complaint against Rittenhouse:

STATE OF Wisconsin vs. KYLE H. RITTENHOUSE - CRIMINAL COMPLAINT
DA Case #: 2020KN003907 Agency Case #: KPD 2020-00047360

Let's admire this exceptional specimen of the libertarian heroes.

Victim #1: Rosenbaum:

The video shows that as they cross the parking lot, Rosenbaum appears to throw an object at the
defendant. The object does not hit the defendant and a second video shows, based on where the
object landed, that it was a plastic bag. Rosenbaum appears to be unarmed for the duration of this
video. A review of the second video shows that the defendant and Rosenbaum continue to move
across the parking lot and approach the front of a black car parked in the lot. A loud bang is heard
on the video, then a male shouts, “Fuck you!”, then Rosenbaum appears to continue to approach
the defendant and gets in near proximity to the defendant when 4 more loud bangs are heard.
Rosenbaum then falls to the ground.

The picture here is clear: Rittenhouse was pursuing Rosenbaum, for a significant distance, because the latter threw a plastic bag (and probably told him some profanities) on him. Not self-defense. Rosenbaum was certainly not rioting, as he was clearly unarmed (i.e. no Molotovs, no knifes, no guns etc.).

The only eye witness, reporter McGinnis, confirms the impression given by the two videos:

Before the shooting, McGinnis was interviewing the defendant. The defendant told McGinnis that he was a trained
medic. McGinnis stated that he (McGinnis) has handled many ARs and that the defendant was not
handling the weapon very well
. McGinnis said that as they were walking south another armed male
who appeared to be in his 30s joined them and said he was there to protect the defendant
.
McGinnis stated that before the defendant reached the parking lot and ran across it, the defendant
had moved from the middle of Sheridan Road to the sidewalk and that is when McGinnis saw a
male (Rosenbaum) initially try to engage the defendant. McGinnis stated that as the defendant
was walking Rosenbaum was trying to get closer to the defendant. When Rosenbaum advanced,
the defendant did a “juke” move and started running. McGinnis stated that there were other people
that were moving very quickly. McGinnis stated that they were moving towards the defendant.
McGinnis said that according to what he saw the defendant was trying to evade these individuals.

So, the boy was teased and begun to pursuit the deceased-to-be like a school kid going to get revenge against his bully. By the way, the kid didn't even know how to handle the AR-15 properly, as noted by McGinnis himself. But this is the prowess of the Libertarian redneck, nothing more to say.

The second armed man (who some commenters here were "attacking" the shooter), by the way, is Rittenhouse's friend, as is also stated.

Rosenbaum definitely tried to get the AR-15 from Rittenhouse's hands. But the context is not one of a Libertarian hero dramatically defending the properties of the good and great petite-bourgeoisie: it's a boy who doesn't know how to handle a gun falling from some cheap provocation by a common street thug (hence the guy having a criminal past) who, coincidentally, was wandering around the city at night (almost 00:00) probably fooling around. There's no indication the dead guy was even rioting - let alone a member of the BLM or Antifa.

After Rosenbaum's murder, people from the city who saw or were nearby begun to pursuit Rittenhouse, who fled northwards (page 4, ante-penultimate paragraph). So, he definitely was being chased because he shot Rosenbaum, and not for anything else (as videos 3 and 4 also demonstrate).

During the chasing, our Libertarian hero once again demonstrated his species' physical prowess: he tripped and fell to the ground while fleeing like a rat. This fall cost another man's life: a nearby skater (Anthony Huber) who also was stupid enough to try to get the AR-15 from the hands of the fallen (literally) hero.

But our hero didn't try to get up and continue to flee. No, getting up is too difficult! Instead, he stayed in a seated position and shot a third person, probably one of the pursuing mob, Gaige Grosskreutz. Grosskreutz raised his hands (with a gun in his right one) while walking towards our Libertarian hero. That is clearly a peaceful position, as in the guy is signalling the other guy he has a gun, yes, but he doesn't intend to use it.

The first shot caught Grosskreutz's right arm (the one with the gun). Grosskreutz runs away, southwards (therefore, away from the shooter, in the opposite direction). He cries for a medic out loud.

So, here we have the overall scenario:

1) the 17-year old kid with an emotional IQ of a pea, killed a guy walking on the streets because he teased him;

2) the kid didn't even know how to handle his AR-15 properly;

3) the kid fled like a coward when a bunch of people sought to apply good ol' street justice for the death of the first guy;

4) he fell on his flight, in a show of both lack of preparation and of lack of physical fitness;

5) his puerile mistake cost the life of a second man, and injured a third, who was clearly trying to help (i.e. maybe he wasn't even from the mob).

Posted by: vk | Aug 29 2020 0:14 utc | 346

William Gruff | Aug 28 2020 13:43 utc | 196

Everyone there is and was an idiot. This is US foreign policy being perpetrated domestically.
The elite will continue to work both sides against each other to cover for their latest crime spree. The idiots actually think they live in a democratic republic and can vote their way out of this. One pack of idiots follows BLM which is not at all grass roots movement and perhaps never was which is funded by the elite and the other side is a bunch of idiots and psycho's that include police and perhaps even some spooks to stir the pot who just want to shoot their political opponents and brag about it.

I'll stay out of this psyop and encourage anyone else to do the same. Making an already violent situation more violent over what is almost certainly insured property is just stupid to begin with, let alone forming militias so they can pretend not to be a lynch mob.

Tricking a kid into doing something this stupid is as immoral as it gets, but the kid also seems to have a weird cop fetish and be a bit of a Yankee doodle dumbf*ck that was raised to believe in American "exceptionalism" and gun worship.

After decades of priming half of America to hate the other half via the fake political parties it seems the elite are well on their way to the goal of corporate industrial zones instead of countries and ruling them by corporate fascist boards made up of elites only and using debt peonage for control over the slaves.

Hope I'm wrong, but I'm not betting on it. Stay smart and safe, don't let anyone else choose your enemies for you. This divide and conquer thing is getting old.

Posted by: dave | Aug 29 2020 0:16 utc | 347

B seems to rush to judgement. I might rate this version of events more highly: https://www.theonion.com/blue-lives-matter-supporters-say-kyle-rittenhouse-not-r-1844869225

A 17-year old in Illinois and probably Wisconsin too is not able to legally purchase an AR. So his possession of it was illegal. Did his single-parent mother buy it for him, and then let him have it unsupervised? Or did he acquire it illegally? He wanted to be a cop. He wanted to join the Marines. He dropped out of high school. His former classmates worried that he might one day be a school shooter.

The invective and vituperation against rioters and property destruction and BLM was removed when the facebook was taken down. Screen shots will not do him any favors in court.

There is the collusion and collaboration of the Kenosha police, which has been filmed--"We appreciate you guys" and here's some water, and we'll drive 'em down to where you can deal with 'em... And he is clearly not stopped or arrested and allowed to leave the scene.

About the first murder, we don't know much yet, and details have yet to emerge. It would seem that bad jacketting of the people involved has begun. People chased him down the street because he'd shot someone. One of his pursuers, who was shot in the shoulder, had a handgun, which is visible in the photos. You cannot claim "self defense" if you initiated the violence or escalated the confrontation. As Trevor Noah put it, you don't load up an AR and drive to another state to "defend businesses." Again, look at the posts before they were taken down. There was a confrontation between white (and lemme guess? they really were all whites?) gun-toting vigilantes and various BLM/ would-be rioters among them presumably, all after curfew. Again, the Kenosha police failed to separate the "counter protesters" from the "protesters." This will not serve them well in court, particularly with the aforementioned palling around and patting on the back of the white AR-toting Trump supporters.

The second and third shootings are problematic. A group was chasing him from the scene of the commission of a murder. Many shouted ugly and aggressive things. He tripped and fell. At least one person kicked him. Still another may have attempted--very ill advisedly--to wrench the rifle from his grasp, and was shot to death. Still a third had a handgun and approached him. This person deserves the "darwin award" except that he survived, shot through the bicep by a rifle bullet. If you have witnessed a murder, and the person is fleeing the scene but you fear he will kill you or other people, you can fire on him as plausible "self defense." Those latter two shootings will be difficult to assess, but I'm thinking the murder one conviction for arming up and heading to kenosha--premeditation--and then getting into some kind of invective laden confrontation with people drive away from the courthouse by the Kenosha PD and shooting one of them to death--dependent on details--is not going to allow much by way of "self defense" claims. As Trevor Noah put it: How did this guy not get shot seven times in the back, what with him carrying a rifle and having shot three people?

Posted by: Dave C | Aug 29 2020 0:19 utc | 348

james @337--

Yes, you are correct! I lived in Davis, California with family in Southern California. Much action took place in both the Central region where Davis and San Francisco are and in the Southland. I went door-to-door passing out RFK for POTUS flyers, watched his victory speech on TV then not much later learned he was dead like his bro, victim of the same forces I suspected and was later proven to be true to my satisfaction. In 1965 during Watts, I was at the family house in Upland where you could smell the smoke, see the orange glow on the Western horizon at night, ask questions as to why but told nothing by seemingly clueless family, parents and elders both being mute but knowing nonetheless. My Mom went to UC Berkeley, Class of 1953. We had similar protests at UC Davis, all of 60 miles away to the East. We traipsed through Haight-Ashbury--Hippie Ground Zero--to Golden Gate Park where Kezar Stadium was then to watch the SF 49ers play NFL football--my grandfather quipping: "You have to walk through the dog shit to sit on the bird shit."

For me, 1968 was the year I became aware of a great many things, and I was located where I could find a few answers to my questions. My appearance then was straight and square, although I was a Rocker. The region was saturated in cides of all types, and it's a minor miracle my daughter wasn't born with more deformities than she was. I'd lucked out in that regard but my brother and sister weren't as fortunate. My dad worked for UC Davis as an agronomist deeply involved in the Green Revolution farming experimental plots from Redding in the North to the Imperial Valley in the South; I drove a tractor as soon as I was big enough to work the clutch and went all over the state; so, I very much was a Farm Boy, but by no means the usual sort. I was hip to the very questionable legality of Vietnam and had read the official JFK Murder cover-up Warren Report the year before. I'd watched all too many of the Freedom Marches, seen JFK send troops to ensure Black kids could go to college, and the disgustingly ugly violence and demeanors of those whose hatred of Blacks totally consumed them. The trolls on this thread remind me of those things that looked like fellow humans but were something else altogether.

If you had your eyes and mind open during the 1960s and 1970s, you learned a great many things not taught in school or by your parents. Another thing. My heritage is Spanish-German--a Visigoth--and I learned Spanish very early as it was the only way to converse with my Great Grandfather. As a result, I could talk with the farmworkers I met in the fields during my travels with my dad. That was an additional education in the years prior to Chavez and the United Farmworkers Movement, which I also participated in when it arose. My first job at 10 years of age was picking iceberg lettuce for 5 cents a head in the blazing Summer heat of Central California fields alongside Braceros. Yeah, I was young, but I wasn't.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 29 2020 0:32 utc | 349

Yesterday a white teen with a semi-automatic weapon had the stupid idea to join others in 'protecting the businesses' in Kenosha from further looting. He ended up killing two people and wounding more after he was attacked by some of the rioters. The teen was arrested and he is facing charges but I doubt that he is guilty of more than sheer stupidity and manslaughter in self defense.

Hold on there! A 17-year old carrying a semi-automatic rifle, in a state that is not his own, in a place that is under curfew... He is guilty of sheer stupidity? Really? Impeccable logic! Oh look he is so silly and harmless that he carries a semi-automatic rifle and dispenses justice to law breakers with a gun that is more than half his length. He seems "smart enough" to choose the right group of friends he likes to hang out. I pity the parents who let their kids into this kind of shit.

Both the police and rioters have a lot of wrongdoings. But this is like a bank robber saying "I killed people in the bank in self-defense who pointed gun at me while I was robbing the bank." Analyzing events without the word of law automatically reduces to taking sides!

Posted by: Innocent Civilian | Aug 29 2020 0:36 utc | 350

Jackrabbit lost me when he said an AR15 is an assault weapon, and vk when he said this kid is a coward for not lying for these rioters to beat him to dead.

Oh well, he lives and his attackers back off, they can talk about cowardice, but they will never be able to change reality.

Posted by: Smith | Aug 29 2020 0:40 utc | 351

@ Posted by: Innocent Civilian | Aug 29 2020 0:36 utc | 350

The funny thing here lies in the fact that the backup institutions (fail safes) the USA has been claiming for decades it had are an absolute joke.

It's one thing to state the police corps is a failure. That's the root of this whole episode after all. It's not unheard of an important institution failing in a Western Civilization country.

The hilarious part comes from the so-called "militias" of which the Americans are so proud of. An obese 17-year old kid from "a militia" literally killed two people (who may've not even been rioters, let alone BLM and Antifa members) because of pure unpreparedness (emotional, training and physical).

So far, I give those vaunted American militias a 0/10. Very disappointing.

Posted by: vk | Aug 29 2020 1:01 utc | 352

He killed two oldboys who were chasing and attacking him.

He ended the riot.

The militia did the job that cops couldn't do.

I don't know about you, vk, but I don't think we share the same opinions.

Posted by: Smith | Aug 29 2020 1:04 utc | 353

@vk #346

Congratulations, you finally red the link I posted a page ago. However, instead of using the quite detailed info contained in there, the majority of your comment is your own outright falsehoods and absurd speculation.

"The picture here is clear: Rittenhouse was pursuing Rosenbaum, for a significant distance, because the latter threw a plastic bag (and probably told him some profanities) on him. Not self-defense. Rosenbaum was certainly not rioting, as he was clearly unarmed (i.e. no Molotovs, no knifes, no guns etc.)."

Except the video and witness testimony is clear that Rittenhouse NEVER Rosenbaum, rather it was the other way around. Rosenbaum was clearly shown with the crowd around the burning dumpster and previously hanging out with armed thugs, shouting "shoot me nigger". These people you so desperately want to portray as peaceful protesters going after "The Man" are violent criminals, felons and rioters, many of them armed, destroying public and private property and making the lives of common people miserable.

What a shame to see people tell themselves and others lies out of desperation to "win".

Posted by: Farquad | Aug 29 2020 1:06 utc | 354

Richard Steven Hack #106

Thank you for that link, and there is so much more from that report/analysis of that time in 1965 that informs this time of the pre-revolutionary conditions within the USA:

Some extracts:

What American blacks are really daring to demand is the right to really live, and in the final analysis this requires nothing less than the total subversion of this society. This becomes increasingly evident as blacks in their everyday lives find themselves forced to use increasingly subversive methods. The issue is no longer the condition of American blacks, but the condition of America, which merely happens to find its first expression among the blacks. The Watts riot was not a racial conflict: the rioters left alone the whites who were in their path, attacking only the white policemen, while on the other hand black solidarity did not extend to black store-owners or even to black car-drivers. Martin Luther King himself had to admit that the revolt went beyond the limits of his specialty. Speaking in Paris last October, he said: “This was not a race riot. It was a class riot.”

The Los Angeles rebellion was a rebellion against the commodity, against the world of the commodity in which worker-consumers are hierarchically subordinated to commodity standards. Like the young delinquents of all the advanced countries, but more radically because they are part of a class without a future, a sector of the proletariat unable to believe in any significant chance of integration or promotion, the Los Angeles blacks take modern capitalist propaganda, its publicity of abundance, literally. They want to possess now all the objects shown and abstractly accessible, because they want to use them. In this way they are challenging their exchange-value, the commodity reality which molds them and marshals them to its own ends, and which has preselected everything. Through theft and gift they rediscover a use that immediately refutes the oppressive rationality of the commodity, revealing its relations and even its production to be arbitrary and unnecessary.

And when you digest that analysis there is this to consider in the waste of the O'bummer years:-

How do people make history under conditions designed to dissuade them from intervening in it? Los Angeles blacks are better paid than any others in the United States, but they are also the most separated from the California superopulence that is flaunted all around them. Hollywood, the pole of the global spectacle, is right next door. They are promised that, with patience, they will join in America’s prosperity, but they come to see that this prosperity is not a fixed state but an endless ladder. The higher they climb, the farther they get from the top, because they start off disadvantaged, because they are less qualified and thus more numerous among the unemployed, and finally because the hierarchy that crushes them is not based on economic buying power alone: they are also treated as inherently inferior in every area of daily life by the customs and prejudices of a society in which all human power is based on buying power. ... Freedom Now is the password of all the revolutions of history, but now for the first time the problem is not to overcome scarcity, but to master material abundance according to new principles. Mastering abundance is not just changing the way it is shared out, but totally reorienting it. This is the first step of a vast, all-embracing struggle.

It is now often said that American youth, after thirty years of silence, are rising again as a force of contestation, and that the black revolt is their Spanish Civil War. This time their “Lincoln Brigades” must understand the full significance of the struggle in which they are engaging and totally support its universal aspects. The Watts “excesses” are no more a political error in the black revolt than the POUM’s May 1937 armed resistance in Barcelona was a betrayal of the anti-Franco war.(2) A revolt against the spectacle — even if limited to a single district such as Watts — calls everything into question because it is a human protest against a dehumanized life, a protest of real individuals against their separation from a community that could fulfill their true human and social nature and transcend the spectacle.


SITUATIONIST INTERNATIONAL
December 1965

China since 1945 has made the transition from a feudal society where hope had been crushed to an infinitely more egalitarian structure - and did so with a huge wave of community support and will. The party of state tapped into the will of people and responded with programs to fulfill their needs within the constraints of its economy and adherence to its communist path. There was little violence.

The USA political ruling class has just rejected its chance to make reasonable change in support of the wellbeing of its people and their future. The political ruling class and its predatory capitalist directors have embarked on a course of violence against the people of the USA. Violence against their shared economy, violence against their health, violence against their security, violence against their education and now violence against the founding principles and aspirations of their very identity as americans.

The USA ruling political class and its predatory capitalist directors hve spat on the "United" in the United States of America. This will not end well as they have none of the dignity, compassion or subtlety that carried China to success.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 29 2020 1:11 utc | 355

Posted by: juliania | Aug 28 2020 20:13 utc | 313 karlof1 @ 244, thank you. I will remind the folk who think guns are the answer and there's no way to eliminate them that Australia did a very creditable job back in the day, but only after a horrible crime spree by a person wielding an automatic weapon that shocked the country back into its senses.

No, Australia did not. Or to be more precise, the effect is not clear as this article shows.

Then there's this: The Myth That Australia's Gun Laws Reduced Gun Homicides

Then there's this: The Mass Shootings Fix.

Bottom line: There is no proof that Australia succeeded in solving gun violence, or even proof that its measures helped more than a little.

More importantly, Australia is not the US and vice versa. The measures Australia took are *impossible* to implement in the US for the reasons I cited previously. Note the following in the "Mass Shootings Fix" article: "In Australia, estimates of the share of guns collected range from 40 to 80 percent of the guns sought." This is in line with what I said - at least ten percent and as much as thirty percent of firearms will not be turned in. For the US, that leaves *40 million* to *120 million* firearms still on the street in the best case scenario.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Aug 29 2020 1:19 utc | 356

Smith @Aug29 0:40 #351

Jackrabbit lost me when he said an AR15 is an assault weapon

An AR-15 is the civilian equivalent to the military’s M-16. The only real difference is that it's not fully automatic.

Rittenhouse had a magazine of 30 bullets. Many States (NY, NJ, CT, MA, MD, CA, CO, some cities in IL) and Washington D.C. limit magazine size to half of this or less.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 29 2020 1:28 utc | 357

WTF vk you are still getting basic things wrong.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 29 2020 1:28 utc | 358

Posted by: vk | Aug 29 2020 1:01 utc | 352 An obese 17-year old kid from "a militia" literally killed two people (who may've not even been rioters, let alone BLM and Antifa members) because of pure unpreparedness (emotional, training and physical). So far, I give those vaunted American militias a 0/10. Very disappointing.

I agree with you there as far as his unpreparedness and his stupidity in getting involved in this to the degree he did (whatever that eventually proves to be.) But I wouldn't extrapolate that to all militias. A lot of these groups have military training because of prior military service and ongoing training. A lot of them are the standard "rednecks" in terms of their social and political attitudes but they still have skills. The fact that this kid was an idiot doesn't change that.

I have no opinion on what happened because I wasn't there and neither were you and videos are evidence, not proof. I don't even care, which is why I haven't bothered to watch any of the videos or read the news accounts. But the mere fact that the kid put himself in the position where shooting people became his only or preferred option is proof that he was unprepared. If I was intending to shoot people, they would be dead and I would have disappeared. Getting involved in situations like this kid did is simply stupid on the face of it. Getting into an argument here over it is equally stupid.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Aug 29 2020 1:31 utc | 359

Many hunting weapons were derived from military weapons and vice versa, you boomer. You said it yourself, AR15 is a civilian version of a military weapon, not a military weapon.

And what about the magazine size? When war time comes, that matters jack.

This kind of argument is why leftists are always deemed as outdated fools.

@Richard Steven Hack
Yeah, I think being chased around and forced to defend himself is going to defend his position wonderfully.

Posted by: Smith | Aug 29 2020 1:36 utc | 360

Was young Kyle Rittenhouse set up?

KR was there with militia but they did nothing to help him.

KR wound up running to police lines by himself as he was chased by an angry mob.

<> <> <> <> <>

Either KR said something that angered the Antifa lunatics or they saw that he was young and thought they could steal his AR-15.

Either way, a 17-year old shouldn't have been there on his own, if at all. And the militia did nothing to guide him or protect him.

Were they using him as bait? Did they hope for a confrontation?

Who is Dominic Black, the friend that KR called after he shot his first victim? Is he a policeman, is he a militiaman? Did KR to go to Kenosha at his request?

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 29 2020 1:39 utc | 361

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 29 2020 1:28 utc | 357 An AR-15 is the civilian equivalent to the military’s M-16. The only real difference is that it's not fully automatic.

AR-15's are classed as "sporting rifles". Actual differences are listed here: ​AR15 vs M16 vs M4: What’s the Difference? As the article states, an M16 is an AR-15, but an AR-15 is not an M-16.

"Rittenhouse had a magazine of 30 bullets. Many States (NY, NJ, CT, MA, MD, CA, CO, some cities in IL) and Washington D.C. limit magazine size to half of this or less."

Which is irrelevant to anything except the desire of some states and cities to enact "gun control" legislation which has no effect on anything except to annoy legal gun owners. Also as I pointed out before, you don't take a handgun to a fight where you expect multiple opponents (unless you're John Wick - and even he had a rifle and a shotgun in the cavern shootout.)

Anti-gun people are generally clueless about anything related to firearms. They rely on emotional claims and a significant degree of ignorance.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Aug 29 2020 1:39 utc | 362

Smith, Hack

Ok, you gun experts, then tell us what is the distinction claimed in Kevin's comment @Aug28 22:42 #338:

I spoke with a gun law expert in Wisconsin and he said while you must be 18 to open carry, there is language specifically designed to allow 16 and 17 year olds to carry “hunting style rifles”.
(emphasis mine)

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 29 2020 1:44 utc | 363

@ Jackrabbit 345

Here let me rephrase your sentence for you. Any felon with a violent Criminal past, engaged in violent and criminal behavior does not deserve to stay among us and is a legitimate target. There. Doesn’t that sound better?

I am baffled and astonished at the level of partisanship among the so called pundits that are willing to totally discount what is in front of their eyes for the sake of ideology. By taunting a 17 year old, calling him racist without any evidence, who was out there defending a property while not mentioning a word about armed and violent felons paid to incite chaos and destruction.

Then, other idiotic comments about how Kyle travelled across state line with a rifle, but no mention of the fact that a known felon was carrying a weapon illegally with intent to harm. Now, who do you think should have stayed home. Kyle or those three thugs. And why isn’t this felon arrested? Sorry but you are defending known criminals. Whether you like to admit it or not.

Joseph Rosenbaum’s life WAS worthless. The other two thugs as well. Too bad the 3rd one got away. As a violent felon, you don't prove your worth to stay among a civil society by going out and inciting riots and threatening a 17 year old’s life with deadly weapons. If they wanted to prove their life was worth preserving, they should have stood side by side with Kyle and defend that business. They might have even got a clemency out of it.

Fact of the matter is that more of these criminals should be eliminated and you will see how fast recruitment will go down since they are on a payroll with no convictions. Losing one’s life is not worth a paycheck. That is the message. Drastic times call for drastic measures.

The suggestion that Kyle should have stayed home, in fact all of us should just stay home and let this play out is the most asinine comment I have heard. Who is going to defend your local pharmacy when your grandmother depends on them for meds? Who is going to defend the supermarket where you buy milk and diaper for your 2 year old? The police have been told to stand down, by the very same politicians that many here are voting for. Shame on them.

Who should be out in the street are the adults to eliminate this joke of a government and even a worse congress. Otherwise, we will be looking at a civil war which is exactly what Soros/Gates/Bezos et al want.

Posted by: Alpi | Aug 29 2020 1:45 utc | 364

@ Posted by: Farquad | Aug 29 2020 1:06 utc | 354

The document clearly stated Rittenhouse had the time to stop, wait for the second shooter and talk to the reporter, before the "plastic bag" episode happened. The relative movement of the two is irrelevant, as only one of them is armed (Rittenhouse) and the two videos don't show the whole thing.

Either it was a very lame pursuit and the plastic bag episode had no importance, or there was nothing happening before the plastic bag episode, and it was the plastic bag episode that triggered the pursuit. The most you can claim is the kid was with the adrenaline high by the moment of the plastic bag episode because he was previously staving off rioters elsewhere; but that doesn't have anything to do, legally, with the two assassinations.

And the complaint I linked to does contemplate the four videos available. They never mention Huber and Grosskreutz are from the mob, or that the mob ever reached Ritthenhouse (which it obviously didn't, as Rittenhouse is alive).

If it was a real war, the kid's two mistakes would've cost the lives of at least two comrades in arms, and himself. Both victims are not black, and thus probably not members of the BLM; rather, they're either infiltrated thugs or common bandits of the city, who walk by the streets during the night. This was all a waste of time and resources - specially if the kid gets a life sentence.

Posted by: vk | Aug 29 2020 1:45 utc | 365

The Kenosha police union has just released its version of the events. As expected, the cops are saints and Jacob Blake is the devil. There are countless interpolations in this version in relation to the Wi-DoJ one, all of which greatly favor the cops:

Police union releases statement on Blake shooting

It is pro-cop, but at the same time it comes from an union. The far-right must be in short-circuit right now.

Note: this version straight out claim the videos available tell us a completely false story. By the same logic, we can discard the four videos on Rittenhouse or make any extrapolation we want from them.

--//--

@ Posted by: Alpi | Aug 29 2020 1:45 utc | 364

You can claim that. But then, you would be entering in another realm, an extra-legal one. Beware with what you wish for.

Posted by: vk | Aug 29 2020 1:58 utc | 366

"'Mostly peaceful protests' are like the 'moderate rebels' in Syria - propaganda constructs that do not exist in the real world. The people who owned the burning cars and whose businesses were destroyed will not be relieved by such phrasing."

Knowing a number of actual peaceful protesters that were gassed or shot in the face with teargas canisters in Minneapolis I am going to say that the majority of protesters were indeed peaceful. The fact that nefarious actors (many white) deliberately incited the violence was obvious to us, on the ground. I live a mile away from ground zero in the Floyd protests. This post, that glosses over the ongoing police brutality and murder in order to equivocate about "peaceful protesters" and "moderate Syrian rebels," is reprehensible. Bullshit. Murder by police--law enforcement--for freely expressing outrage at this ongoing practice is especially odious.

The fact that this plays to fascist Trump's advantage is a sign of the decadence of the neoliberal left that fundamentally supports this "unequal justice under the law." You couldn't pick better candidates--Biden and Harris--to make that point, both up to their necks in corruption and advocates for injustice based on race, class, and privilege.

This post is rank with neofascist undertones. And, after frequenting this site for some time, I can now bid you adieu for good!

Posted by: Tower | Aug 29 2020 2:00 utc | 367

Wow, so much damage. Such an epic riot... [pictures of the "devastation at the end of the article]

WATCH NOW: Kenosha County Sheriff David Beth says that he has not seen video of Jacob Blake shooting

I'm beginning to think this "civil war" theory is just a petit-bourgeois fabrication. Pure hysteria. A simple insurance will surely cover that.

Posted by: vk | Aug 29 2020 2:01 utc | 368

@367 "Knowing a number of actual peaceful protesters that were gassed or shot in the face with teargas canisters in Minneapolis I am going to say that the majority of protesters were indeed peaceful. The fact that nefarious actors (many white) deliberately incited the violence was obvious to us, on the ground."

I can believe that. But why do the peaceful protesters let the violent minority get away with it? You shouldn't let them control events and manipulate you

Posted by: dh | Aug 29 2020 2:06 utc | 369

Alpi @Aug29 1:45 #364

The suggestion that Kyle should have stayed home ... is the most asinine comment I have heard.

Kyle Rittenhouse is proof that a 17-year old isn't mature enough to be in that situation by himself, if at all. I think he may have been placed in that situation ON PURPOSE.

And what about this asinine comment from you:

Who is going to defend your local pharmacy when your grandmother depends on them for meds? Who is going to defend the supermarket where you buy milk and diaper for your 2 year old?

Oh come on.... grandma can get her meds from the other 4 pharmacies in the area. And no one needs to die for diapers.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 29 2020 2:16 utc | 370

@ karlof1 349.. thanks! i do recall you growing up on a farm in california... i was just trying to put it all together as i am a year younger then you.. maybe it had to do with the fact your parents and grandparents were more active in recognizing the injustices going on and wanting to keep you informed given your location and etc... i didn't really become aware of a lot of the craziness going on in the world until i met i number of draft dodgers when i was about 17-18 years of age.. of course living in canada would make it different too.. this was in vancouver in the 70's for me...

don't get disheartened by a lack of response to your many thoughtful posts.. i don't often say anything, but i do read them and most of the time when i have time - i read the links you share too! thanks for all your generousity!

@ dh 369 - we've had a few drive by naysayers or trolls or whatever you want to call them - you know.. people you have never seen the handle of before coming and saying much the same as tower who you direct your comment to... but in answer to your question - i think peaceful protests are ripe for the picking and it is an easy jump to see how a small group - cia, or whoever - can turn it upside down very quickly... so, as to saying these peaceful protesters shouldn't let these people control the narrative - that is a lot easy to say, then it is to do!! just imagine all the possibilities here and you get my drift...

Posted by: james | Aug 29 2020 2:20 utc | 371

In my opinion there are no real immediate solutions as the problems of class division , militarism and obscene financial inequality coupled with a perfectly planned “scamdemic “ which unfortunately B has bought into hook line and sinker are massive and systemic. The weight of the oppression will not abate regardless of who’s in power. It’s so easy to point out the flaws and not offer solutions. But frankly I’m at a loss and that’s exactly how the elites want us to feel. Abbie Hoffman said it best “Revolution for the hell of it”

Posted by: Tucson69 | Aug 29 2020 2:20 utc | 372

"I can believe that. But why do the peaceful protesters let the violent minority get away with it? You shouldn't let them control events and manipulate you"

Violent minority? You of course are referring to the police? No? But many protesters did try to prevent property damage, actually. You would know that if you were interested in what actually happened. But maybe it's better to transform this into a "property rights issue" instead of a "human rights issue"? But that exposes where you come from. Talk about propaganda. This site has gotten creepy.

Posted by: Tower | Aug 29 2020 2:29 utc | 373

"I can believe that. But why do the peaceful protesters let the violent minority get away with it? You shouldn't let them control events and manipulate you"

Violent minority? You of course are referring to the police? No? But many protesters did try to prevent property damage, actually. You would know that if you were interested in what actually happened. But maybe it's better to transform this into a "property rights issue" instead of a "human rights issue"? But that exposes where you come from. Talk about propaganda. This site has gotten creepy.

Posted by: Tower | Aug 29 2020 2:29 utc | 374

@371 I actually found Tower's comment quite enlightening james and I welcome new viewpoints. And I don't totally buy the 'CIA instigators' idea. Obviously there are people who like trouble for it's own sake and protests give them an opportunity. If the peaceful protestors can't handle these clowns they should let the police do it.

Posted by: dh | Aug 29 2020 2:31 utc | 375

@374 Nown, now Tower. I know these are exciting times but you don't have to fly off the handle. I only see these events from a distance that's true but I'm just trying to understand. Seems to me the peaceful protesters are in the best position to reduce the violence. They must know who the looters and instigators are.

Posted by: dh | Aug 29 2020 2:40 utc | 376

dh why on earth would they know who planted right wingers are? how on earth would they be in the best situation to stop the violence? the cops let rittenhouse and other violent armed right wing thugs through, gave them refreshment, thanked them for their help, and told them they would be herding the protestors toward them for them to "take care of". explain to me how the protestors controlled any of that. explain to me how letting the cops set up the situations where the peaceful protestors get killed is an argument for "letting the police handle it". i can only conclude that you, like b, are unfamiliar with the situation. if you trust the u.s. government to handle the "situation" in syria and venezuela and iran and afghanistan and iraq and libya, etc. etc. etc. then by all means trust the cops that that government supplies with military weaapons, that are often ex military themselves, having served in one of the numerous foreign interventions of the u.s.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Aug 29 2020 2:54 utc | 377

tower, i'm sorry to see you go, but sympathize. you expressed this very well, and it's kind of jarring to be reading this and suddenly i'm reading something pat lang might well write.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Aug 29 2020 2:59 utc | 378

"If it was a real war, the kid's two mistakes would've cost the lives of at least two comrades in arms, and himself. Both victims are not black, and thus probably not members of the BLM; rather, they're either infiltrated thugs or common bandits of the city, who walk by the streets during the night. This was all a waste of time and resources - specially if the kid gets a life sentence."--vk
vk i have no clue what you are talking about. lots of the protestors are white. the people he shot were white protestors. the kid was an enthusiastic proponent of right wing violence, given some of this social media posts, and the white protestors are left wing, so how did you come to the conclusion that they were his "comrades"?? the cops let the kid get away with it. they encouraged him and the other members of this right wing militia mob to do precisely what he did, and they drove protestors toward them. there is no mistake here--violent right wing extremists want to kill and maim left wingers. supporting the cops here is exactly like supporting the fake "syrian moderates". believing the cops here is exactly like believing that the bullshit about syrian goverment gas attacks is true. and believing that the victims were the comrades of the killer is exactly like believing that the bodies left behind to support the story of aerial gas bombs were the comrades of the white helmets.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Aug 29 2020 3:06 utc | 379

@377 I'm not on anybody's side. You presumably want the unrest to continue whereas I'm just watching from a distance. My only yardstick is human behaviour. It takes two to tango.

Posted by: dh | Aug 29 2020 3:09 utc | 380

and by the way, the reason the kid was separated from the main body of the vigilantes is because he went out by himself hunting protestors. and after he shot one and was chased by others (they are mostly not carrying guns, that's more of a right wing militia trait, but they clearly need to start doing that) and shot them, he walked back toward the cops and his comrades, and the cops just let him go. the cops are fine with this.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Aug 29 2020 3:11 utc | 381

smith, the violent little psychopath shot one guy, was chased by two others, and shot them too. it's revealing that you think he stopped the riot by executing a few protestors, the opposite is what happened. you execute people in the street, whether it's a violent cop or a violent albeit not officially sanctioned right wing terrorist, and you are going to get pushback. your response is the age old right wing imperialist war cry of "bomb them back to the stone age" as a useful way of dealing with countries that don't want to be subjugated by the united states.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Aug 29 2020 3:17 utc | 382

"it takes two to tango". using that tortured logic libya was responsible for being invaded because "it takes two to tango". iraq was responsible for being invaded on false pretenses because it "takes two to tango". but like you said you don't know much about this, so maybe you need to learn more about it.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Aug 29 2020 3:19 utc | 383

@383 I was referring specifically to the current protests in the US which don't seem to be anywhere near conclusion. There seem to be conflicting views about law and order.

But since you ask I was appalled by the attack on Libya, and I don't like what is happening in Syria, Yeman or Venezuela. Perhaps there is a connection but it lies in an American perception of hegemony. Is that what people in the US are protesting about?

Posted by: dh | Aug 29 2020 3:30 utc | 384

@ 375 dh... i was only using the cia as one example that typically does it in other countries.. .. i don't think that is the case here.. however their is a long list of groups that would be happy to destabilize this protest without naming names... remember you are talking with someone who said "And, after frequenting this site for some time, I can now bid you adieu for good!" let them... i think they are full of shit myself..

Posted by: james | Aug 29 2020 3:39 utc | 385

I understand the revulsion incurred by the Kenosha video, even the full video which shows Blake breaking free of police physical control attempts and the failed tweeting.
Not is the shooting particularly clearly justified.
But then again, what are those police to do? Let him go?

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 29 2020 3:44 utc | 386

@385 I'll talk to anyone james until the ad hominem starts anyway. I can understand there are people following MOA who are very stressed out by all this stuff. They are more involved than me.

Posted by: dh | Aug 29 2020 3:48 utc | 387

@385 I'll talk to anyone james until the ad hominem starts anyway. I can understand there are people following MOA who are very stressed out by all this stuff. They are more involved than me.

Posted by: dh | Aug 29 2020 3:48 utc | 388

dh - i am the same... i am really talking with you about the idea that protests can't be co opted by others.. i believe they can and are which is basically what tower and pretzelattack are saying and to which i do agree with...

Posted by: james | Aug 29 2020 3:50 utc | 389

@389 The protesters obviously are being jerked around. I do think some people are too ready to blame the police for everything....yes I know some of them are rotten. Anyway that view doesn't seem to fit the prevailing narrative so I'll say no more.

Posted by: dh | Aug 29 2020 3:58 utc | 390

@dh... no one is perfect...i think the types of people drawn to being police are a mixed bag - some good and some not so good.. the environment on a regular basis might make some (or many of them) jaded.. it's a tough job.. someone has to do it.. i think many including myself as too ready to blame any number of sources... i don't know that it is one group in any of this.. i like what peter au said much earlier in the thread - it is a reflection of a society that is being challenged with some of the unpleasant sides to itself... well, that is my saying that, but peter said something along those lines.. i don't mean to put down the poster tower.. i liked what they said for the most part.. i took exception to the part of leaving for good and taking a shot at b who i did say earlier lives in germany, like i live in canada - and might not be able to properly appreciate all of the nuances in what is happening here... however, i do believe b generally sees the bigger picture better then most...

Posted by: james | Aug 29 2020 4:21 utc | 391

@391 Covid, riots, etc. I think a lot of commenters are quite happy watching the empire collapse. Getting a taste of it's own medicine so to speak. I'm not sure things are quite that bad. It could just be going through a necessary purging. Or it could get worse. Who nows? I won't be around much longer anyway.

Posted by: dh | Aug 29 2020 4:36 utc | 392

Unpacking this thread is a night's work and then some. Some of my favourite posters are coming out bloodied in this exchange and posters I have never seen before or rarely noted are making points that resonate with me. I am observing a full blown intellectual riot here.
The mob has its own "organic" logic and that logic is not rooted in law. It's like Vegas - what happens there stays there. Normal people who find themselves "protesting" are prone to act like idiots in the moment. That's why law enforcement is invested with extraordinary powers to keep the peace and are not usually subject to civil liability. I am surprised that somebody as erudite, wise and intelligent as Karlof1 is baffled that nobody in authority is challenging qualified immunity. The answer is obvious.
The young lad foolishly, but with good intentions, put himself in a law enforcement position without qualified immunity. Now look at what he is facing as a result.
But now that the State has decided to let the Courts sort the matter out, I predict that young Rittenhouse will not only be exonerated in the courts, but will become a kind of folk hero for what he did. When America was on the brink of disintegration and the mob rules, a 17-year old boy held his ground.
It's the stuff of legend!

Posted by: Activist Potato | Aug 29 2020 5:05 utc | 393

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 29 2020 1:11 utc | 355 -- "The USA ruling political class and its predatory capitalist directors hve spat on the "United" in the United States of America. This will not end well as they have none of the dignity, compassion or subtlety that carried China to success."

Beautiful encapsulation, Uncle. The US leadership lacks humanity. Been that way since before WW2. But their propaganda is exceptional. Think Hollywood. Think CIA. Think Great Satan

Posted by: kiwiklown | Aug 29 2020 5:34 utc | 394

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 29 2020 0:32 utc | 349 -- "Yeah, I was young, but I wasn't."

Thanks, Karlof1 for all that you share with us at this site. As someone noted upthread, other than B, you are the leading light here. And to see young minds calling you a troll... LOL. But then youth has no time to learn: they already know all there is to know.

I agree that a discussion is much-needed on the evil called "qualified immunity". But then, few here even notice that you brought it up, just as few would engage psychohistorian's "private vs public money". And there is the ongoing raid on the US Treasury while the deplorables fight each other in the streets ( masks, floyd, blake, 17-year old boy ). If this site, with its above-average readership, is anything to go by, the enemy has succeeded to set us fighting each other endlessly over minutae while meta-level issues slip under the radar.

Posted by: kiwiklown | Aug 29 2020 6:03 utc | 395

Congratulations vk

You have graduated from dishonest and deluded to dishonest and demented.

You're clearly nothing but a troll, not remotely interested in presenting an honest case, preferring instead a mix of dishonesty and clearly demented fantasy.

You should apply to CNN MSNBC or Foxnews for a job, as you'd clearly fit right in

Posted by: Contra-Conspiraloon | Aug 29 2020 6:14 utc | 396

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2020 20:45 utc | 322

The most amusing thing about reality-denying idealogues is when they double- triple(!)-down on the reality-denial.

Especially when they do it to try and distract from the fact that they have just been caught lying

Posted by: Contra-Conspiraloon | Aug 28 2020 20:55 utc | 328

Posted by: Contra-Conspiraloon | Aug 29 2020 6:19 utc | 397

And there is the ongoing raid on the US Treasury while the deplorables fight each other in the streets ( masks, floyd, blake, 17-year old boy ). If this site, with its above-average readership, is anything to go by, the enemy has succeeded to set us fighting each other endlessly over minutae while meta-level issues slip under the radar.
Posted by: kiwiklown | Aug 29 2020 6:03 utc | 395

Several brought up the topic of the looting of the treasury being coveredup by CoVid panic, several months ago when covid lockdowns were initially enforced.

Your hero karloff immediately started accusing them of wanting to murder people susceptible to CoVid, and then went on to imply anyone making that case was a fascist in league with the worst elements of the elite

Spare us the sycophantic hero worship of a clearly blinkered and idealogue, who like all idealogues is quite often little more than a willing slave to a narrative, and is willing to bend truth in service of that narrative

Hes not quite as twisted and demented as vk, but he's certainly willing to venture down the same dishonest routes to achieve his aim

Posted by: Contra-Conspiraloon | Aug 29 2020 6:31 utc | 398

Posted by: Tucson69 | Aug 29 2020 2:20 utc | 372 -- ".... there are no real immediate solutions as the problems of class division , militarism and obscene financial inequality coupled with a perfectly planned “scamdemic “.... are massive and systemic. The weight of the oppression will not abate regardless of who’s in power. "

The weight of oppression will not only abide, but it will rise. Happens to all empires in decline. First, the deplorables taste it; they have nowhere to run, and so many will die off. Nothing dramatic, since the culling will occur over decades. Next, the elite taste it. Initially they flee from newly-created shitholes such as NYC, escaping to Martha's Vineyard, the Hamptons, even Florida. As the shit follows them, they finally flee to NZ, Russia, and horror of horrors.... Shanghai !!! Along the way, they die off due to advancing age, coronavirus, anxiety; and they lose sons and daughters to drug overdoses, etc.... you can fill in the blanks if you read enough history. Again, nothing dramatic, but just more dramatic, because, errrr.... they are rich and famous, see?

The single most vital meta-issue that is being missed here is the "scamdemic" named by tucson69. The elite grew fat on the trillions of freshly-printed USDs, while MainStreeters got a few measly thousand dollars. Americans continue to not see the Magician's Other Hand.... while the covid19 show and tell is all the rage, the US Treasury is robbed blind. Because the USD is the current global reserve currency, what happens to the USD affects the entire world. There will be hell to pay. Main Street will do the paying. And then, the world. The pain will come, abide, and rise. For the other 7 billion of us too.

Some here note that while Americans are busy killing each other, the rest of the world might get a respite. I say yes to that, but global development -- the advancement of the good life for all the 7 billion of us -- will be on hold for decades more until the Americans are done dying.

Harsh judgment, no?

But isn't it more harsh that a clutch of Americans (Brits? Zionists?) cause so much pain for so many decades as they "lead" 7 billion humans towards "democracy"?

Posted by: kiwiklown | Aug 29 2020 6:50 utc | 399

@395 kiwiklown
Don't consider myself young, but in this geriatric tavern 40's is probably a spring chicken. I appreciate and am an avid reader of Karlof, a troll he is not. I don't always agree with him, some Covid issues come to mind, but I realize with the older crowd Covid is a bigger deal than it is to me. I am much more worried about keeping a roof over the heads of my family and me. I think the older crowd's working days happened during a historical period where it was much easier to earn a living and even become wealthy. It is hard to detach one's mind from what was, and fully comprehend what is, even if one's intentions are noble.

VK, who is also being accused of being a troll is someone else I enjoy hearing from, although I will grant you he goes off on some crazy tangents, but also provides good insight, especially in regards to China. His take on the Kenosha shootings is rather warped, and he spun himself into a corner tripling down on a bad interpretation of events, but cutting folks some slack is something I like to do. A vehement disagreement on a topic won't lead me to throw out every argument a person makes.

The differences between a so-called assault rifle and a hunting rifle are primarily cosmetic. Assault rifle is a term invented by the gun-control lobby. My hunting rifle is semi-automatic, as many are. If I replaced the heavy wooden stock with a lighter one, added a pistol grip and a shorter barrel, it would be considered an assault rifle even though it is functionally the same gun, although the recoil would be worse and I'd lose a little range, in return I'd have a lighter, more mobile weapon. Not sure how that will play out in court in regards to Rittenhouse.

Posted by: Jason | Aug 29 2020 7:29 utc | 400

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