Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 24, 2020

U.S. - China Spat Over Quarantine And Consulates Continues

The U.S. closed down the Chinese consulate in Houston in revenge for Chinese demands that diplomats coming from abroad to China undergo Covid-19 testing and quarantine. No U.S. media I have read has yet confirmed that fact which Moon of Alabama was first to report:

The unmentioned reason for the State Department's move is a squabble over virus testing and quarantining of U.S. diplomats who are supposed to return to China.
...
The squabble continues. The U.S. diplomats have not returned and the consulate in Wuhan has still not reopened. The U.S. order to close the Chinese consulate in Houston is obviously an attempt to press China into lifting its testing and quarantine demands for U.S. diplomats.

The Global Times, China's flagship English language media, has asked two experts. Both confirmed our reporting:

Wu Xinbo, dean of the Institute of International Studies, Fudan University:

According to my understanding, it is a move to pressure Beijing to get more US diplomats back to their posts in China. Since the outbreak of the COVID-19, the US had hurriedly evacuated quite a number of American diplomats and citizens from China. Now Washington believes it is time for them to continue their China mission. Yet negotiations on their return did not go quite smoothly. ...

Wei Zongyou, a professor at the Center for American Studies, Fudan University

It has been quite some time that China and the US have remained locked in negotiations over conditions for the return to China of US diplomats and their family members. The harsh requirement for the closing of the Chinese Consulate General in Houston can be regarded as the US retaliation over this dispute. ...

The U.S. media still behave as if they have not noticed the unreasonable demand of Cootiestan's State Department. China would risk another Covid-19 outbreak if it were to exempt newly arriving diplomats from testing and quarantine.

China responded to the U.S. order to close its consulate in Houston with a mirror order to shut down the U.S. consulate in Chengdu. But notice how different the purposes of those outlets gets described:

As the United States lashed out against the “new tyranny” of China, Beijing on Friday ordered the closure of the American consulate in Chengdu, a retaliatory move that threatens to drive the two powers into an even deeper divide.

Beijing blamed the Trump administration for the deterioration in relations, calling its own action justified after Washington told China this week to shutter its consulate in Houston and accused its diplomats of acting illegally.
...
[T]he Trump administration has said the closure of the Houston consulate was necessary because it had become a hub of illegal spying and influence operations, allegations that Chinese officials have denied.
...
[T]he closure of the consulate in Chengdu, in Sichuan Province, the westernmost of the five American consulates in mainland China, deprives the United States in a city that is a hub for China’s commercial expansion across Central Asia. Chengdu is also its most valuable diplomatic outpost for gathering information on Xinjiang and Tibet, the two sometimes-restive regions in China’s far west.

Both regions have been the locations for wide-ranging security crackdowns that have drawn international criticism as abuses of human rights.

The Chinese consulate in Houston is accused, without any evidence, of being a "hub of illegal spying and influence operations". The U.S. consulate in Chengdu is, according to the New York Times, involved in "gathering information on Xinjiang and Tibet" and also used for the fake "human rights" campaigns against China - i.e. CIA information operations. Why is the chosen depiction so different?

As U.S. has many more diplomats in China than China has in the U.S. We can therefore be sure that the U.S. has more agents doing their nefarious stuff in China than Chinese agents are doing in Washington, Houston and elsewhere.

Some U.S. diplomats who had evacuated in January and February are now returning to China:

Washington and Beijing have been negotiating for weeks over the terms of how to send U.S. diplomats back amid disagreement over COVID-19 testing and quarantine procedures, as well as frequency of flights and how many each can carry.

There is no word yet how the testing and quarantining of these diplomats will be handled. I find it likely that China has stuck to its demands and that the U.S. conceded on the issue. That would of course be another issue the media would not want you to know.

Posted by b on July 24, 2020 at 18:17 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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thanks b... it is interesting why the media in the west is not going into the details here, and yet you are connecting the dots... i tend to agree with your conclusion at the bottom.. interesting that china has opted to close chengdu consulate.. i am sure they put some thought into this!

Posted by: james | Jul 24 2020 18:27 utc | 1

Hence Popeo’s Frankenstein statements...

Posted by: Beibdnn | Jul 24 2020 18:27 utc | 2

Why the "diplomats" cannot be allowed to be tested: They already have antibodies, and that will make the Chinese suspicious.

That's my bet.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 24 2020 18:28 utc | 3

Pompeo’s

Or Poopeo’s

Whichever is more relevant or childish...

Posted by: beibdnn | Jul 24 2020 18:29 utc | 4

Gruff @ 3

I'm sure that all who need to know, do already know about origins, antibodies,etc. I believe it's long past time of suspicions....facts have been found to substantiate suspicions.

Posted by: Digital Spartacus | Jul 24 2020 18:37 utc | 5

Digital Spartacus @5

True, but I wouldn't put it past Pompeo and "Bloody" Gina Haspel to think they still have the Chinese fooled.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 24 2020 18:48 utc | 6

William,

I think that's a given....

Posted by: Digital Spartacus | Jul 24 2020 18:53 utc | 7

...
That's my bet.
Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 24 2020 18:28 utc | 3

Love the theory, but it's too good to be true.
It would start US Civil War II if word seeped out.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 24 2020 18:58 utc | 8

Hoarsewhisperer @8

And the Chinese have no reason to keep it secret, thus they cannot be allowed to acquire the evidence.

You're right, though, that would trigger a feces storm in the US.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 24 2020 19:07 utc | 9

As I've reported, China will not allow Outlaw US Empire crap to deter it from its development plans as the opening paragraphs from this article show:

"At a time when the US is actively pushing its allies to ramp up confrontation with China, it is more essential than ever for China to ensure that its economic development progress won't be derailed by diplomatic tensions intentionally orchestrated by the White House.

"In recent years, China has been promoting a domestic consumption upgrade while seeking cooperation with the outside world to resolve its trade imbalance issue. Such an approach could still apply in the post-pandemic era....

"At this juncture, if China can adhere to its opening-up policy and improve home consumption levels, the country will create a more favorable economic and trade environment to counter the pressure from the politicians at Washington."

All signs point to China accomplishing the above and more. As for the Outlaw US Empire, the damage is all self-inflicted despite Pompeo's rants for domestic consumption. I highly suggest barflies read my Open Thread comment citing Hudson's most recent interview as to the fundamental nature of the Empire's self-made crisis.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 24 2020 19:09 utc | 10

According to CGTN, 2 minutes ago, China is sticking to the "restoration of mutual respect" line.
No mention of the quarantine sticking point.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 24 2020 19:13 utc | 11

Thanks for the ongoing coverage and your assertion about why the friction.

Reducing the number of US "agents" on China soil reduces exposure to potential bio-warfare carriers as well.

I agree that Gruff's scenario has potential as do many others involving empire criminality.

It will be interesting to see if US diplomats/agents are indeed agreeing to China covid testing and quarantine as b speculated.

It is too soon to know for sure but the momentum seems to be against empire continuing unipolar control of the world's finances.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 24 2020 19:15 utc | 12

No sense being surprised at the coverage. As most of the readers of this site know, it's just generally a good idea to treat Times (and Post and WSJ and any other large outlet) articles and editorials as missives from the American bureaucracy. These reporters are basically the PR arm of the deep state. And these missives, given the imprimatur of the "august newspapers of record" then set the narrative that is slavishly reported by all other respectable western MSM.

And awaaaay we go! Cold War 2 is on the way, just in time as the WOT was getting ridiculous to even the biggest jingoistic rubes, bigger and better than the original cold war even, just as China is bigger and better than the old SU ever was.

Oh, the weapons the mil-ind-sec complex will sell ...

Posted by: Caliman | Jul 24 2020 19:17 utc | 13

https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1195536.shtml
"Sources told the Global Times that there have not been any chartered flights between Washington, DC and Shanghai Pudong International Airport in the past three days, after media reported that a flight carried US diplomats to China on Wednesday amid escalating tensions between the two countries."

So much for yankistan fake news.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 24 2020 19:22 utc | 14

Just as all governments lie, all governments spy

Posted by: O | Jul 24 2020 19:24 utc | 15

@ karlof1 at #10 who provided this quote

"At this juncture, if China can adhere to its opening-up policy and improve home consumption levels, the country will create a more favorable economic and trade environment to counter the pressure from the politicians at Washington."

If China consumer consumption increase even a little bit it will overwhelm the reduction of consumption now occurring and expected to continue to trend lower in the US. And if China's consumption includes products from countries along its Belt and Road developments, it will cement those nations relations with China as relations with empire/US wane.

The Gordian Knot yet to unravel is the migration away from the current US Reserve Currency status and the associated Bretton Woods agreements.....maybe this time when they agree to eliminate the private BIS (Bretton Woods agreement) they will really create a public version of a world bank serving all nations equally instead of the current privately owned and operated BIS manipulating Forex markets for profit and control.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 24 2020 19:28 utc | 16

The Issue:

"Much of the focus of the Trump administration's trade dispute with China has centered on the size of the U.S. bilateral trade deficit. Most economists agree that this focus is misdirected, and that the existence or size of bilateral trade deficits should not generally be a matter of concern or a target of public policy. Instead, there is bipartisan agreement regarding a different problem at the core of trade issues with China: China's persistent misappropriation of foreign technology. Forced technology transfer occurs when foreign multinational companies have to provide strategically significant technology to an indigenous entity they do not control in order to gain access to the massive Chinese market."
https://econofact.org/what-is-the-problem-of-forced-technology-transfer-in-china


The western oligarchs want the Chinese oligarchs to be more fair, in particular Huawei to transfer their tech the other way in order to play in western markets.


"The global business community would generally prefer that business with Huawei could just go on as usual. Huawei and its affiliates are the acclaimed leaders in 5G technology, and the rest of the commercial world wants to have access to that technology, and also to be able to interoperate with it. In other words, to the extent that western companies agree with the US administration the risks, they have decided that the rewards outweigh those risks and are willing to accept them -- as most recently evidenced by the news yesterday relating to how many US components are finding their way into Chinese handsets."
https://www.zdnet.com/article/huawei-changes-its-patent-story/


Furthermore, Houston is one the main cities where total 5g tech is being implemented first along with L.A and Chicago.


Houston’s a player in the race for 5G dominance
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/techburger/article/Houston-s-a-player-in-the-race-for-5G-dominance-14484221.php


Posted by: O | Jul 24 2020 19:30 utc | 17

Forced Tech Transfers Are on the Rise in China, European Firms Say
The practice has become more widespread despite official assurances from Beijing it would be stopped

https://www.wsj.com/articles/forced-tech-transfers-are-on-the-rise-in-china-european-firms-say-11558344240

Is the US right to cry foul about forced technology transfer to do business in China – and what is Beijing’s position?
Foreign companies’ concerns about having to share their tech secrets are among the matters being discussed in ongoing US-China trade talks
Beijing’s draft foreign investment law could legislate against the practice, but businesses are sceptical about enforcement

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/2181528/us-right-cry-foul-about-forced-technology-transfer-do-business

This is about trade and tech not lame inconsequential quarantine rules.

Posted by: O | Jul 24 2020 19:38 utc | 18

psychohistorian 16

The dollar dropped recently with the EU agreement on Covid19 rebuilding - easy money at mates rates for their mates no doubt but whatever - Gold's going up and the dollar is going down. I thought this would occur sometime back but - better late than never. My thought was that Obama and Kerry spent their time running around trying to prop up the crumbling dollar empire, then with the Trump admin, I have had the impression they believed the dollar empire was finished so were going to use the last of the dollars power to set up a new racket in a make or break move.
Up against the likes of Putin and Xi, the real estate conman and Goering just don't have what it takes. Now its just a matter of seeing if the will put up a fight like armed bankrobbers or preside over the collapse of empire.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 24 2020 19:49 utc | 19

Trump hints at closure of more Chinese consulates as China fumes


"The US has long accused China of stealing intellectual property and technology, an allegation that is one of the core issues in the trade war between the world's top two economies. Beijing denies the accusation, but committed to addressing some of the US complaints in the first phase of a trade deal that was signed in January.

The commitment includes following through on previous pledges to eliminate any pressure for foreign companies to transfer technology to Chinese firms as a condition of market access."


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/07/orders-closure-china-consulate-houston-200722090154988.html

Posted by: O | Jul 24 2020 19:50 utc | 20

@ O in #18 who wrote
"
This is about trade and tech not lame inconsequential quarantine rules.
"

China has public banking at the core of their government and the West has private banking there.....China has outlawed usury

This is the real civilization war going on........not lame inconsequential trade and tech rules.....grin

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 24 2020 19:50 utc | 21

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 24 2020 19:50 utc | 21

The global oligarchs(east and west) care nothing for nation states. Patriotism and nationalism are quaint notions for the little people to believe in.

Posted by: O | Jul 24 2020 19:55 utc | 22

@ Posted by: O | Jul 24 2020 19:30 utc | 17

[...]forced technology transfer[...]

So, that's what they call joint-venture nowadays? In my time, this was a legitimate economic contract, and nobody forced the Europeans to sign the contracts at gunpoint. As you admit: "foreign multinational companies have to provide strategically significant technology to an indigenous entity they do not control in order to gain access to the massive Chinese market."

Just to give you a fairly recent example not involving China: Swedish jet producer Saab won a huge contract in Brazil (against the French and the Americans) purely because it offered technology transfer. And this was widely and publicly propagandized in Brazil at the time (they were still in the good times of Lula's government). And the deal really happened: there's a factory of jets in Brazil (at the city of São Bernardo do Campo), and the technology is being gradually transferred, with components of the supersonic jet being assembled both in Linköping and in an Embraer factory at Gavião Peixoto.

At the time this happened, I remember vividly of it not causing any revolt in any Western MSM at all. In fact, I suspect they didn't even know it happened at all.

The concept of IP was created in the post-war period in order to protect the First World from the rise of the Third World. It keeps the Third World perpetually with their economies being just raw materials exporters. It is one of the main generators of world poverty ever invented by humanity.

But even this is a moot point. The problem with the West (be it Europe, Japan or the USA) is not that it doesn't have the technology, but that they don't find it profitable to implement said technology in their home soil. Only Huawei has the economy of scale large enough to install it in the West on a profit. The rest is mere bickering between intelligence agencies of each country and willingness to create a casus belli to expropriate Huawei for easy bucks.

China is, nowadays, the world's leading nation in IP registries. This is happening not because they are stealing the ideas from the "innovators" from the West, or because the West suddenly forgot how to innovate: it is happening because the West is in a long period of decline, while China is still on the rise.

Posted by: vk | Jul 24 2020 20:00 utc | 23

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 24 2020 19:50 utc | 21

And want nonsense are you talking about China outlawing usury?


The current Chinese interest rate PBC (base rate) is 3.850 %

https://www.global-rates.com/interest-rates/central-banks/central-bank-china/pbc-interest-rate.aspx

Posted by: O | Jul 24 2020 20:00 utc | 24

William Gruff @Jul24 18:48 #6

I wouldn't put it past Pompeo and "Bloody" Gina Haspel to think they still have the Chinese fooled.

More likely that they would simply push forward against Chinese objections then claim that China was excalating conflict with USA.

Trump/Pompeo propaganda is that a vile, mendacious CPC is responsible for all problems with USA and the West: Hong Kong, Uyghurs, "China virus", espionage, South China Sea, etc., unfair trade, and more. They will push that line as much as they can to justify their 'maximum pressure' tactics against China.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 24 2020 20:09 utc | 25

Posted by: vk | Jul 24 2020 20:00 utc | 23

I agree, "forced" is a loaded word no one is forced into any of these deals. As you mentioned Huawei that is what the western oligarchs want of the Chinese now in order to play in western markets especially concerning 5 g.

Posted by: O | Jul 24 2020 20:09 utc | 26

vk @ 23

I believe the West have been imitators,not innovators for quite some time now. That's why the hue and cry over IP now.

Posted by: Digital Spartacus | Jul 24 2020 20:14 utc | 27

To the extent coronavirus tensions are what’s at work here, then that’s good news for China-U.S. relations, since they’ll fade in importance month by month. But who really thinks that’s the case?

Kudos to MoA for observing a wrinkle that others have missed, and which may be playing a role in this particular spat, but the self-congratulation looks a bit like pride in noticing a few new trees while still not seeing the forest.

Posted by: David G | Jul 24 2020 20:14 utc | 28

@Posted by: O | Jul 24 2020 19:38 utc | 18

If I was in China's place, I too would acquire foreign technology any way I can from countries I payed billions or trillions of dollars that I will not get back at some point.

China is playing long game, and knows there is great chance that USA and its poodles will default on all the money they owe to China. It is both fair and natural for China to gets its worth back by other means.

Posted by: Abe | Jul 24 2020 20:20 utc | 29

@O 17+18

FORCED transfer? Get off the koolaid...

Did China park a carrier group off NY and said give us the tech or we shoot? There's nothing forced about it. Get off the neocon hymn sheet.

Technology was shared in return for access to the market. No one put guns on anyone's head for the transfer. You don't like it then you could opt to stay out of the market. It's a free choice. Most firms chose the market that will be >4x of USA. Pure and simple.

In fact most firms did it by shipping China obsolete product tooling for superseded models to contain the knowhow. for the longest time VW in China was making old 70s satanas into the 2000s.

China simply leveraged the only advantage it had in negotiating favourable terms when it was lacking in technology. Its vast population and market.

ART OF THE Deal! BITCH.

The Chinese didn't forget about maths and science. Technology transfer only kickstarted its resurgence after the failed experiment of Chinese socialism 1.0

I'll let you in on another thing. The domestically produced products in China are getting better and better as the domestic consumers are now making more money and therefore more discerning on quality. Keep it up, go ahead and sanction more, China won't just pass you by, it'll fly right pass you.

Posted by: A.L. | Jul 24 2020 20:22 utc | 30

Is Chengdu burning? please China keep surveillance drones all around our consulate and record any evidence of document destruction to shut up the western press about China's burning of papers being unusual.

1. The shorter the notice, the more pressure to dispose of documents rather than transfer them.
2. I wonder if there is a limitation in terms of what diplomats are allowed to carry off with them from the consulate. If they are restricted to carry on items then that would compel them to destroy documents as well.
Now in a civilized world, no one would have to do this or harass passenger jets with fighter jets illegally stationed in other countries like Syria.

Posted by: Christian J. Chuba | Jul 24 2020 20:24 utc | 31

Blood Samples of all diplomats for covid 19 testing would allow China access to their DNA for future checking of their non standard activities.

Posted by: KAIAMA | Jul 24 2020 20:25 utc | 32

From the previous open thread: @psychohistorian | Jul 24 2020 4:42 utc | 90

Pompeo as much as just stated that China is Frankenstein which I consider an act of war.

Yes, China has been threatening to make the Secretary of State behave like an honest man.

Posted by: Cyril | Jul 24 2020 20:27 utc | 33

@vk 23

You're way more eloquent than I could ever hope to be. Well put.

Posted by: A.L. | Jul 24 2020 20:27 utc | 34

Frederick Pohl 1982 The Cool War.
It only took 38 years to become reality.

Posted by: Kaiama | Jul 24 2020 20:29 utc | 35

O is just the latest incarnation of donkeytale (previously: 'king lear' and 'nero').

The POV is always the same: the notion that the US-China conflict is just a commercial dispute among neoliberal elites.

That's a truism that conveniently ignores the geo-political aspects of the conflict, notably: Thucydides Trap, so as to make a false equivalence between US and Chinese elites. The intent is clearly to excuse Western elites/"Deep State" as people of the West increasingly suffer from the effects of the conflict.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 24 2020 20:31 utc | 36

Posted by: A.L. | Jul 24 2020 20:22 utc | 30

Good grief, how many times must I say this, I don't endorse neither eastern nor western oligarchs. The word "forced" yes is a loaded word, it is the term western economist are using and I am just quoting them. My point is this 'trade war' centers around tech transfers going either way, east and west, as you allude its just business.

Posted by: O | Jul 24 2020 20:36 utc | 37

@O 26

Huawei will happily licence the technology to any market but not without itself gaining access to the same.

But it seems the west now wants the tech but no market access for Huawei.

So much hypocrisy....

Posted by: A.L. | Jul 24 2020 20:37 utc | 38

Re: consulate closures are of course propaganda war. Will it work for the US public -- develop a feeling of victimhood, willingness to make sacrifices? Sure we could've had health care, sure we could've sent poor kids to decent schools, but we have all these gold plated stealth battleships to finance, dontchaknow... Oh ok, I guess there's a war to fight.

Re: the injustice of tech transfer - complete nonsense of course. Greed by corp's, pure and simple.

Posted by: ptb | Jul 24 2020 20:37 utc | 39

Is what China doing now in requiring foreign firms engaged in joint ventures with Chinese companies to share technological and engineering knowledge and intellectual property rights any different from what Japan used to do 50 or 60 years ago?

I must say also that it's a masterstroke on Beijing's part to close the US consulate in Chengdu, in Sichuan province. I bet no-one in the White House saw that one coming and even in recent past MoA comments forums, only one commenter (Occupatio) picked up news that Beijing was looking at closing down either the Chengdu consulate or the consulate in Shenyang due to its location near North Korea.

Posted by: Jen | Jul 24 2020 20:38 utc | 40

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 24 2020 20:31 utc | 36

"O is just the latest incarnation of donkeytale (previously: 'king lear' and 'nero')."

Unbstantiated nonsense.


In your simplistic worldview everything is black and white, heroes and villains the signs of an immature mind and it seems you are not alone on this comment board with such childish framing of the world.

Posted by: O | Jul 24 2020 20:43 utc | 41

@jen 40

Chengdu and shenyang also happens to be amongst other things, where the new Chinese jet fighters are being developed.

So this may be China saying if the USA wants to reframe this as a spying incident then let's play.

Posted by: A.L. | Jul 24 2020 20:47 utc | 42

psychohistorian

Early days yet but a couple of interesting headlines currently at Reuters.

"Dollar slump continue on U.S. economic worries, safe-haven yen gains"
"Shares retreat globally on U.S.-China tensions, gold soars"

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 24 2020 20:52 utc | 43

@KAIAMA 32

should do that in hk. More than a thousand staff at the US consulate in Hong Kong and they're sure as hell not here for the shopping!

There must be so much evidence awaiting DNA matching..

Posted by: A.L. | Jul 24 2020 20:54 utc | 44

I once read a transcription of a conversation between a French Maoist and Foucault...

The Maoist indicated something a Cuban had referred to in so many words or less: You are welcome here, but if you militate against Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity...You are unwelcome here.

Posted by: donten | Jul 24 2020 21:05 utc | 45

The American Revolution was a catastrophe for its economy, which had to endure decades of reconstruction. In order to neutralize the threat of the British Empire, it stroke multiple trade deals with it.

The USA is home to the father of protectionism: Alexander Hamilton. He stated that a national industry in its infancy should be protected from its more mature competition. The USA followed his advice and protected its nascent industry from the British threat.

When the British Empire begun to degenerate, the Americans used the cheap British capital in excess in the financial markets to build up their infrastructure, specially their railways. Australia did the same.

The Founding Fathers did what they had to do in order to protect their country and make it flourish. When the ideology of the time stated they shouldn't, they invented a new ideology that stated they should. And the could: when the British and French tried to destroy the USA through a sea embargo, they responded in kind (Embargo Act of 1807) and prevailed; they did not cave in to the then imperial powers.

So, I don't understand why so many Americans are offended with China. The capitalist world tried to keep China poor and as a raw material exporter, sweatshop conglomeration. China didn't accept this, and decided to fight back. The result is here for all of us to see.

Posted by: vk | Jul 24 2020 21:09 utc | 46

*circlejerk interrupt*

what was the moa selling price?

Posted by: fgr | Jul 24 2020 21:11 utc | 47

@fgr 47

Feeling left out? C'mon cupcake don't be a stranger. We promise to be gentle.

Posted by: A.L. | Jul 24 2020 21:16 utc | 48

@ 14 peter au... do they use military aircraft for transferring diplomats to china??

@ 40 jen... yes - looks like a master stroke closing this particular embassy.. usa gets caught with its pants down again... oh well..

Posted by: james | Jul 24 2020 21:17 utc | 49

Regarding trolls...if you feed them, they will come

It's actually very easy to set a record straight with your own input without making reference to the one you think may be a troll.

In the Story of..., there's no doubt about that one.

Remember, when it bites, don't feed it.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 24 2020 21:39 utc | 50

james

Reading this part of the article I linked made me doubt US had used military aircraft.

"Reuters reported that the US State Department was planning to arrange a chartered flight to Shanghai from Washington on Thursday.

Also, a tentative July 29 flight to Tianjin and Beijing was in the initial planning stages, and a target date for another flight, to Guangzhou, was still to be determined.

Wang Wenbin, a spokesperson of the Chinese Foreign Ministry, said on Friday that China and the US maintain communication on the return of US diplomats to China, in response to a question at the ministry's daily press conference."

Maintaining communication.... sounds like the Americans made an announcement prematurely.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 24 2020 21:47 utc | 51

peter au,

thanks! it is interesting how this usa hissy fit reminds me of the previous dynamic that happened with the russian consulate in san francisco... thank god that are no iranian consolutes in the usa, or are there?? when does the usa throw a hissy fit on a venezualan consolute having to shut down in the usa?? i will give the usa one thing.. they are pretty easy to read..

Posted by: james | Jul 24 2020 21:53 utc | 52

A.L. All posts.

Thank you, exactly that. Plus you don't need an embassy to effect industrial espionage. Poor pay and conditions in the target company is the primary state sufficient to attract participants.

The USA and many other countries in the West are in prime condition for 'marketing knowledge' for cash.

Also the embassy closures are a matter of state security imperative for many eastern nations after the Ukraine and Hong Kong criminal interferences. All looking good from my pov.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jul 24 2020 21:58 utc | 53

fgr

Less than the participation cost. Your contribution is awaited.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jul 24 2020 22:01 utc | 54

I've been in front of the Chinese Embassy in Los Angeles demonstrating numerous times.
It's off the beaten path, with little exposure.
It has been a while.
I've had visitors from the Mainland visit me, and a relative in Hong Kong.
But that is in the past.

Posted by: Duncan Idaho | Jul 24 2020 22:05 utc | 55

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 24 2020 21:39 utc | 50

It is this type of thinking and accusations that create stale repetitive echo chambers that you oh so were lamenting about not so long ago.

Posted by: O | Jul 24 2020 22:11 utc | 56

The choice of embassies was interesting after a global times editorial I linked a few days back. It was a recognition of cold war and that what is currently being ramped up by the US will not change no matter what slimebag is in office. It was a notice that China would now respond to all US hostile moves but in such a manner that US was more damaged by its moves than China.
US wanting to decouple would have been hoping China would shut a consulate that was involved in a lot of US - China trade.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 24 2020 22:14 utc | 57

Same as the US moves against Russia.

"HOUSTON (Reuters) - A group of men who appeared to be American officials were seen forcing open a back door of the Chinese consulate in Houston on Friday, shortly after a U.S. government closure order for the mission took effect at 4 p.m. Central Time.

The men did not respond when asked who they were by reporters. Earlier, the same group of men was seen padlocking a door on another side of the building."

The consulate, even though the diplomats have been told to leave, is I think still Chinese sovereign territory.
No doubt there will be caretakers at the Wuhan consulate but with no diplomats there, would notice need to be given? To give 'caretakers' time to burn paperwork?

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 24 2020 22:47 utc | 58

Part of the ideological fencing during the Cold War was characterized as being between the Communist Menace and the Imperialist/Colonial Devil. Post 1989, all that remains is the now very visible proven truth that the Communists were telling the truth about the Outlaw US Empire--it remains the Imperialist/Colonial Devil for one and all to see. In fact, it rarely defends itself along those lines anymore. Its dream of attaining Full Spectrum Domination most importantly for the world has remained a dream; yet, it still acts as if it still is capable of being realized. Reality says no, then repeats itself since nobody within the Empire's Politburo seems to be listening. Iran began the No, was followed by Russia and now China. IMO, many still need to be deprogrammed from the propaganda of that Age, particularly that of China's Cultural Revolution. Reading the free preview of The Unknown Cultural Revolution provides a good beginning, particularly when augmented by Ramin Mazaher's 8-part review, "A much-needed revolution in discussing China’s Cultural Revolution: an 8-part series." For contrary to the very longstanding falsity of that propaganda, the Cultural Revolution was a resounding success that launched the growth of China's internal market and its system of representation known as democratic centralism--both of which made Deng's "reforms" possible and successful. The result is many are operating from a set of false premises when it comes to China and how it became what it is today and what it will achieve tomorrow. Eurasian and African nations are asked if they want to join the BRI development plan devised by China or if they want to ally with the Imperialist Devil. Most African nations having been victimized by the Empire's SAP's Neocolonial policies look at its current behavior and say Hell No, unless their undemocratic leaders are bribed. A similar outlook lives within Eurasian nations not within NATO, while even a few NATO/EU nations see the future, don't like the path they're on and want to change direction. The Outlaw US Empire holding a losing hand tried to bluff, bluster and bully its way into winning the hand; but that didn't work, so now it's resorting to outright violence by calling China a cheater, which will be followed by shoving its chair back violently while commanding Draw! a la Hollywood barroom shootout--or perhaps without the command as with Soleimani.

The reality as I wrote a few days ago is China has already passed the Outlaw US Empire's economy as measured by Real GDP, not PPP or with the Empire's false numbers. The Empire in a manner is self-flagellating yet cannot admit the truth that it did it to itself to enrich the Financial Parasites that currently rule the roost while continuing to give them Trillions and sacrificing Main Street. And even if the Duopoly were ousted tomorrow and its policies reversed, the USA won't be capable of catching China, just as it will never regain parity with Russia in sophisticated weapons systems. IMO, Main Street America doesn't give a damn about either of those two points. Rather, want it wants is to retain the status as a moderately prosperous society, which in reality is rapidly eroding. That's what the real Critical Mass is all about--In absolutely every way imaginable, All Lives Matter.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 24 2020 23:52 utc | 59

Who cares what pretext they come up with? This is concern mongering, not an underreported story. What the hell happened to you?

Posted by: Midwest Jesus | Jul 25 2020 0:11 utc | 60

karlof1 @Jul24 23:52 #60

The Outlaw US Empire ... tried to bluff, bluster and bully its way into winning the hand ... which will be followed by shoving its chair back violently while commanding Draw!

Yup. Pompeo's "Frankenstein" reference to China is wrong-headed. "We hoped they would change", he says - but China DID change. It's a capitalist economy.

The problem for the AZ Empire is that China didn't go as far as they wanted. They retained a strong sense of nationalism. So they didn't integrate into the Western capitalist economy in a way that allowed the West to compromise and subdue their leadership. It's THAT aspect of China's 'peaceful rise' that Pompeo and the US Deep State are so angry about.

The question now is whether USA/AZ Empire can bring China to heel. IMO the answer to that question is not as obvious as either side would have you believe.

=
USA ... will never regain parity with Russia in sophisticated weapons systems.

That seems overly pessimistic/optimistic (depending on one's view). USA is now testing hypersonic missiles. And they are ahead in space.

And USA's propaganda is second to none. That's important because winning a war, whether Cold or Hot, requires a populace that will accept sacrifices. Blaming the other side for the need for such sacrifices is an art as much as a science.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 25 2020 0:16 utc | 61

Escobar and others are correct. It's a Clash of Ideologies/Philosophies from whence flow societal mores, organizations and actions. Yes, I've written about that before--Collectivism versus Individualism. By indoctrinating children through the innocent appearing mechanism of a board game--Monopoly--the Zero-sum ethos is ingrained and very difficult to wash out. The USA's Founders were actually Collectivists who undermined their philosophy by wanting territorial expansion.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 25 2020 0:41 utc | 62

"Escobar and others are correct. It's a Clash of Ideologies/Philosophies from whence flow societal mores, organizations and actions. Yes, I've written about that before--Collectivism versus Individualism. "
Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 25 2020 0:41 utc | 63

No personal offense to you karlof1, but this just more pseudo-intellecutal claptrap that the global oligarchs used to get so called patriots of the east/west divide to kill each other.


Both the western and eastern oligarchs can give a rat's ass about philosophies and ideologies just along they have a mindless mob of consumers, be they Americans, Chinese of fucking martians. These oligarchs fight over who gets the lion's share of profits and they don't care how many bodies it takes to achieve that goal.

All governments lie, spy and cheat because they are all owned by these global oligarchs.

Posted by: O | Jul 25 2020 1:24 utc | 63

karlof1 63

The clash of civilizations. The center of the world shifting from Anglo/European west to Asia. Can't have chinks running the show. Racism ... fear of the unknown ... Anglo dominance ... I think these things are more a driving force than ideology.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 25 2020 1:33 utc | 64

Excellent point Kaiama! "Blood Samples of all diplomats for covid 19 testing would allow China access to their DNA for future checking of their non standard activities." KAIAMA | Jul 24 2020 20:25 utc | 32

Posted by: Richar David | Jul 25 2020 1:44 utc | 65

Posted by: vk | Jul 24 2020 20:00 utc | 23

Correct.

I would add, in my view intellectual property is an oxymoron, as Thomas Jefferson said once. What matters is execution of an idea, not the idea itself. Also, the free dissemination of ideas helps the evolution of the species and thus benefits everyone. Intellectual property is an attempt to invade others' freedom under the guise of a fake "contract" and is really an attempt at "monopoly status" which under Austrian theory is by definition coercive as all monopolies are coercive (so-called "natural monopolies" are rare and usually undermined by competing technology).

I recommend Stephan Kinsella's "Against Intellectual Property".

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 25 2020 2:05 utc | 66

Posted by: O | Jul 24 2020 19:50 utc | 20

Why are you emphasizing this forced bullshit again, after me and others ripped that laughably weak trite to shreds the last time?

Tell us, are you also "forced" to troll by your own greed and selfishness like Yankistaners?

Posted by: J W | Jul 25 2020 2:09 utc | 67

Richard Steven Hack

Intellectual property. The first oxymoron to patent his/her thoughts gains ownership and nobody else has a right to have those thoughts. Oxymoron A has a thought a week before oxymoron b has the same thought. If oxymoron a is smart he patents his thoughts and oxymoron B has no rights to his thoughts.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 25 2020 2:13 utc | 68

Posted by: A.L. | Jul 24 2020 20:47 utc | 42Chengdu and shenyang also happens to be amongst other things, where the new Chinese jet fighters are being developed.
So this may be China saying if the USA wants to reframe this as a spying incident then let's play.

Very interesting point.

From an infosec viewpoint, there are people in infosec who point out that China doesn't just have agents operating out of their consulates like the US and every other nation does. They also have Chinese immigrants in the US who are "seeded" here and do things like run Chinese restaurants near major US corporations and the like as spying operations to overhear lunch talk, etc. I suspect this is true - it would be a smart move. And the US probably doesn't do as much of that as the Chinese do - although I assume McDonald's and Burger King and Starbucks operate in China? So it would be the pot calling the kettle black to accuse China of doing anything the US doesn't do.

The US got caught stealing secrets from a Brazilian oil company, I recall, noted in the Snowden papers. And before that, the French got caught bugging Concorde airplanes in first class.

I read a book years ago about industrial espionage. People have no idea how widespread that is. Today they call it "business intelligence", in order to conceal the fact that it's done by everyone of any size. The Internet has just made it a lot easier.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 25 2020 2:15 utc | 69

Meanwhile: China yet to disengage from most LAC spots, says new report
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/china-yet-to-disengage-from-most-lac-spots-says-new-report/article32186068.ece

Posted by: Antonym | Jul 25 2020 2:18 utc | 70

Posted by: J W | Jul 25 2020 2:09 utc | 68

Probably in your frantic rush to score self appointed brownie points with the herd that you obviously need approval from, you didn't read my post at 37 or anything else. Its ok, you can apologize to me or continue swatting at phantoms of your own creation. Makes no difference to me.

Posted by: O | Jul 25 2020 2:29 utc | 71

Antonym

SARS-CoV-2 is a nasty bug. Best to head off to India and partake deeply of the life giving waters of the sacred cow.

I guess the clowns that videoed themselves well past the line of control with wood sticks facing off with Chinese with riot shields did not drink deeply enough of the life giving waters. If cow piss can defeat coronavirus, surely it can fend of the glacial waters the clowns ended up in.
But not to worry. China has set up a permanent position at patrol point fourteen and the construction crews have retreated.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 25 2020 2:32 utc | 72

Posted by: O | Jul 25 2020 1:24 utc | 64 Both the western and eastern oligarchs can give a rat's ass about philosophies and ideologies. All governments lie, spy and cheat because they are all owned by these global oligarchs.

I would agree and disagree with these two sentences. I agree with the second.

As to the first, no one operates without some sort of personal philosophy. But many if not most of the oligarchs probably don't have any strict adherence to a specific philosophy, as you correctly say. They operate out of personal emotion primarily. Trump is an excellent example (except he's more of an idiot than the true oligarchs.)

The amusing thing to me is all those who postulate this conflict as "collectivism vs individualism". As an individualist anarchist, I can say that I do indeed view the conflict in that light - on a personal level. And it is precisely "collectivism" - i.e., society and so-called "civilization" per se - that is the problem on a world scale. Or perhaps more precisely, the brainwashing of humanity by society and civilization into the notion that individual freedom is the real problem of said society and civilization. How often have we heard the line that "being selfish" is the worst "sin"? That "self-sacrifice" is the highest "virtue"?

The fun part is that everyone who is against the "masters" who run society and civilization in virtually every country are arguing for a "collectivism" that will invariably turn into the same thing. This is precisely what happened in Russia, what happened in China, and what happened in the US. And that was the case regardless of whether the dominant "official philosophy" was "collectivist" or "individualist".

The false dichotomy of "collectivism" vs "individualism" is one of the way the "masters" keep these fools divided. In fact, neither term has any real meaning - not when the Communists use them or when Ayn Rand uses them. It's just another propaganda ploy by the "masters" and their philosopher toadies.

As an individualist anarchist, I don't have any problem with the "masters" - except the fact that I should be taking their shit and not allowing them to do things which harm me. If everyone had that attitude, there would be a lot fewer "masters". But that is never going to happen, given human nature, and I recognize that. So bitching and moaning about "collectivism vs individualism" doesn't interest me. It's just another boring fake "either-or" dichotomy that 99% of the population can't see through.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 25 2020 2:37 utc | 73

Posted by: Antonym | Jul 25 2020 2:18 utc | 71

Ah yes, India. Crying unfair only because when they can't beat Chyyyyyna in a fight they started. Were they raising the same concerns when they were bullying their other much weaker South Asian neighbors?

They are far from the might of the US, but they are just as every bit of a pussy as the Yanks are.

Posted by: J W | Jul 25 2020 2:41 utc | 74

Thanks for referring us back to your post at the open forum, karlof1 @ 10. I was taken by your comment about your wife's changed view as she saw what has been happening in the US government as a whole. It gave me the thought that an idea expressed here at times about a separation of segments of the country might indeed be the result. Not as I've seen it described, an out and out civil war, but simply a loss of relevance on the federal level and more actual power accruing to each state in alignment with their neighbors. It seems to me this is already happening, as each state copes with extraordinary stress and strain coping with the virus, while the federal government is on an entirely different set of priorities for itself.

Perhaps, as did the Soviet Union, the time has come for fragmentation in a very practical sense with the federal system more or less shrinking to what it and the original 13 could manage for itself. Then, following the Russian example, a loosely grouped family of former states whose leaders have practical agendas for their people without needing to be MAGA on the world scene?

Plenty of questions. But people, this current pushmepullyu isn't working! Can we just do this the way our planetary plates do it, shifts, readjustments, multipolarity...peaceably?

It's too darn big. Well, maybe with climate change we'll get that inland sea situation science says existed for this continent way back when. All in good time.

Posted by: juliania | Jul 25 2020 2:52 utc | 75

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 25 2020 2:37 utc | 74

I agree with you, I would paint myself as an anarchist as well, probably more of the socialist leaning or volunteerism in that I accept that that most human individuals live in a society of some kind.

And I think you hit the nail on the head with:

"The false dichotomy of "collectivism" vs "individualism" is one of the way the "masters" keep these fools divided. In fact, neither term has any real meaning - not when the Communists use them or when Ayn Rand uses them. It's just another propaganda ploy by the "masters" and their philosopher toadies."

Posted by: O | Jul 25 2020 2:53 utc | 76

volunteerism should be voluntarist

Posted by: O | Jul 25 2020 2:59 utc | 77

'Appears to me more like a stupidity trap and those who fall into it are the ones who don't recognize the global capitalist game for the fact the assets and owners are no longer confined by nation state identity. They move freely and amorally wherever the returns on investment are magnified."
Posted by: donkeytale | Jul 25 2020 2:41 utc | 75

This^^^^^

Posted by: O | Jul 25 2020 3:03 utc | 78

I am not aware of a single poster in this forum who doesn't recognize that assets and owners aren't confined to nation-states...what a shoddy, strawman argument.

I guess i shouldn't be surprised at such retardation when the Empire's NeoCon Beast of Burden and associated sock puppets show up. LMAO!

Posted by: Haassaan | Jul 25 2020 3:29 utc | 79

Here is a report in the World Socialist Web Site on the personal impact of the China shutdown.

There is no doubt why any sane country would allow USA or UK or Brazilian etc etc visitors to enter after one considers the social and economic and political costs of responding to another viral spread.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jul 25 2020 3:47 utc | 80

So it has come to the need for nations to close embassies - well tut tut. What will it take for the west to comprehend China? What have recent political and public health crises demonstrated regarding the fusion of Marxist economics with Confucian philosophy.

For Confucius, the first rule of governance – even above ensuring food or national defence – was to induce the people to have faith in their rule. Mencius, the Second Sage of Confucianism, took things a step further. Mencius warned that a ruler who does not act on the people’s behalf ceases to be a legitimate ruler and can be deposed by the people.

Confucius also offered this advice: “To guide a state great enough to possess a thousand war chariots, … treat persons as valuable”. Clearly, treating persons as valuable, and even humanely, has has always been a hallmark of Marxist philosophy. People - above corporations or czars or oligarchs is the foundation of communist philosophy. Sure not always practiced in some ‘marxist’ forms but it is the foundation.

Chairman Xi Jinping is certainly streets ahead of some past Chinese practitioners. Indeed Xi Jinping has promoted a fusion between the economic philosophy of Marx and its transition through Leninist and Maoist practice and the Confucian philosophy.

In his 2014 address to the International Confucian Association Xi praised Confucianism as “the cultural soil that nourishes the Chinese people”. “Confucianism,” he said, is the key to “understanding the national characteristics of the Chinese as well as the historical roots of the spiritual world of the present-day Chinese”. This event celebrated the 2,565th anniversary of Confucius’ birth.

Not your normal discourse from the materialist stable of Marxist thought but certainly deeply respectful of the philosophical roots of the Chinese sages and the people. The rejection of religious and spiritual thought was a cornerstone of Marxism as it responded to the murderous and usurious alliance between church and state of the past centuries. Perhaps in these times a fusion can negate the rise of a venal class of ‘priesthood’.

Xi made this point - “Some people of insight, believe that the traditional culture of China, Confucianism included, contains important inspirations for solving the troubles facing us today.” Xi then spelt out several traditional ideas that could benefit Chinese society, mostly by helping to reduce corruption in government.

Some principles of Confucianism - the twin concepts of wren (jen) and li are often said to constitute the basis of Confucianism. wren is human heartedness, goodness, benevolence, wren is a sense for the dignity of human life--a feeling of humanity towards others and self-esteem for yourself. Confucius recognized that you need a well ordered society for wren to be expressed. Li – conveying two elements:- (1) concrete guide to human relationships or rules of proper action that genuinely embody jen and (2) general principle of social order or the general ordering of life. Li sets out the way things should be done or propriety: positive rather than negative ("Do's rather than Don't's). Secondly LI sets out the principle of social order; ritual; ordering of life; conforming to the norms of jen.

Then there is Yi - a moral sense: the ability to recognize what is right and good; the ability to feel, under the circumstances what is the right thing to do. There is showe (Hsiao) filial piety; reverence. Once the reverence and respect is understood for parent, showe can be extended by generalization to family, friends, society, and mankind. Then chee (Chih) - moral wisdom; the source of this virtue is knowledge of right and wrong. Chee is added to Confucianism by Mencius (muhn shoos) who believed that people are basically born good. Then the principle of choon dzuh (Chun-tzu) - the ideal person; the superior person; a gentle person in the most significant sense.

Finally there is Day (Te) power by which men are ruled; the power of moral example - the whole art of government consists in the art of being honest. More from https://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/main.html

This looks to me to be a very compatible twin for Marxist economics and the development of a humanist egalitarian society. It goes a long way to illuminate the current processes at work in China and points to a future that could nurture inclusive and prosperous communities. It stands in stark comparison with the western direction.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jul 25 2020 3:54 utc | 81

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 25 2020 0:16 utc | 62

"And USA's propaganda is second to none. That's important because winning a war, whether Cold or Hot, requires a populace that will accept sacrifices. Blaming the other side for the need for such sacrifices is an art as much as a science."


Was causing the death of two million Iraqi’s is one of the scarifies you talk about that the populace had to accept?

Sometimes I have a problem to understand the way the so called “western people” behave. I am almost reaching a conclusion that the art of media is to give the populous an excuse to themselves why they appear to be accepting scarifies. We should stop lying to ourselves that we care about others. As long suffering is not at your doorsteps, human race as individuals, is as bad as our governments.

Posted by: Man | Jul 25 2020 4:09 utc | 82

Sputnik News via that fucking bitch Epoch Times...Jennifer Zeng

https://sputniknews.com/world/202007251079980061-us-officials-break-into-chinese-consulate-in-houston-after-staff-evicted-local-media-report/

"US Officials Break Into Chinese Consulate in Houston After Staff Evicted, Local Media Report"

The incident took place just 40 minutes after the eviction deadline ordered by US President Donald Trump, citing the need to "protect American intellectual property" from China, who the White House

Posted by: JC | Jul 25 2020 4:13 utc | 83

what is with you JC? fucking bitch? why do you say this shit?

Posted by: james | Jul 25 2020 4:17 utc | 84

Another site RT - My hope China tit-for-tat will do likewise in Chengdu and possibly including HongKong as well.

It's war baby!

"US officials force entry into shuttered Chinese consulate in Houston soon after evicted staff left"

24 Jul, 2020 22:28 / Updated 4 hours ago

https://www.rt.com/usa/495809-china-consulate-houston-entry/

Posted by: JC | Jul 25 2020 4:27 utc | 85

That behaviour is really incomprehensible. The American diplomats are guests in China and should behave accordingly.

Posted by: m | Jul 25 2020 4:41 utc | 86

Man @Jul25 4:09 #84

Was causing the death of two million Iraqi’s is one of the scarifies you talk about that the populace had to accept?

Yes and no.

In terms of karma, yes.

And in terms of the huge cost - paid year after year - of US military, intelligence agencies, and police forces is also a sacrifice. A sacrifice that is excused as "necessary".

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 25 2020 4:49 utc | 87

...fucking bitch? ..

Posted by: james | Jul 25 2020 4:17 utc | 86

How about this one?
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2018756540/samantha-power-top-us-diplomat-s-life-and-career

Posted by: tucenz | Jul 25 2020 4:52 utc | 88

Posted by: tucenz | Jul 25 2020 4:52 utc | 90

Thank you brother!

Posted by: JC | Jul 25 2020 5:02 utc | 89

Posted by: james | Jul 25 2020 4:17 utc | 86

Can someone tell the idiot who that fucking bitch Jennifer Zeng, Epoch Times, New Tang Dynasty or NTD? I repeat fucking bitch.

Please everyone expect the worst.... and it ain't gonna get any better. That mad man in the WH determine to go to war to win the presidency.

Posted by: JC | Jul 25 2020 5:33 utc | 90

86

A quick look at her twitter account and she is very much pro US anti China.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 25 2020 5:42 utc | 91

Man 84

Understand what we are. As a species. Human character. And work with that. Goering understood it well.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 25 2020 5:47 utc | 92

Thank you b for the real story. That is one reason I come to this site. I also enjoy the comments even if I don't always agree with all of them I can still pick up interesting and valuable insights. I follow the Australian and New Zealand media too and there is not a word about the Chinese insisting on quarantine restrictions for everyone including returning diplomats. I worked in the media long ago and I saw their distortions and omissions first hand, but only for their favourite people countries and groups. That only made me more interested in the real story.

I think it is only a matter of time before China will leverage their near monopoly on rare earth mining to their advantage.

https://thediplomat.com/2019/07/rare-earths-in-the-us-china-trade-war/

A number of Australian mining companies have discovered some very valuable rare earth deposits, particularly in the Northern Territory and South Australia. A number of proven deposits also have valuable gold, uranium and other minerals too. Rare earths are a necessary component in many new technologies including in the "defence" industries, super magnets and electric cars.

Posted by: Paul | Jul 25 2020 5:53 utc | 93

@JC

Calm down bro. Don't pop a vein over it.

Likes of Jennifer Zeng, Joshua Wong and Gordon Chang are dime a dozen, like PEZ in a dispenser with "Chinese house niggar"* written on the side.

Even if you get rid of one another one is ready to go. Like PEZ we just grow out of it one day. Evidently the world is not ready to grow at this juncture.

*If you know what it is you shouldn't be offended at my usage of the term. It is in fact the most accurate term I could think of.

Posted by: A.L. | Jul 25 2020 5:55 utc | 94

@Jackrabbit | Jul 25 2020 0:16 utc | 62

And USA's propaganda is second to none. That's important because winning a war, whether Cold or Hot, requires a populace that will accept sacrifices. Blaming the other side for the need for such sacrifices is an art as much as a science.

The use of propaganda is a sign that the propagandist is in weak position in the real world. Liars risk their credibility; when it's gone, it's gone forever. Why would anyone take this risk if he could achieve the same effect by other honest means? The answer is because has lost the strength to do it honestly, or never had that power in the first place, so he lies.

That is why propaganda has suddenly become so important to America. The country is losing on multiple fronts at the same time: in medicine, in economics, and perhaps most importantly, in its global prestige. So what is left but the lie?

The joke is that the liar damages himself. It's very difficult to sustain a lie without tripping over something. ("O, what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive!" said Sir Walter Scott.) When people start to notice inconsistencies, the liar loses more of his prestige. And this loss, when combined with the lack of strength that caused him to lie in the first place, forces him to lie more frequently, more blatantly to get things done. And that costs him even more prestige, and so on in a losing spiral. Very soon his influence is gone completely.

That is what happened to the Soviet Union: in my opinion, it imploded primarily because of its propaganda. There were other reasons, of course, but I think it was done when its citizens started saying things like "There is no truth in Pravda". The US is well down the same path.

Posted by: Cyril | Jul 25 2020 6:25 utc | 95

@Cyril | Jul 25 2020 6:25 utc | 97


That is why propaganda has suddenly become so important to America. The country is losing on multiple fronts at the same time: in medicine, in economics, and perhaps most importantly, in its global prestige. So what is left but the lie?

Propaganda has always been important to the US. The propaganda even managed to make some people believe "America" is synonymous with the US. What is happening now is not that propaganda has suddenly been injected into the picture, but the fact that the quality of US propaganda has diminished significantly and become transparent to most people around the world.

I agree with the observation that such poor propaganda is a sign of weakness, and that the result is loss of credibility. As you say, once credibility is gone, it is gone forever. This is in fact one of my personal guiding principles, you can never regain credibility once it is lost.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jul 25 2020 7:16 utc | 96

@O | Jul 25 2020 1:24 utc | 64


Both the western and eastern oligarchs can give a rat's ass about philosophies and ideologies just along they have a mindless mob of consumers, be they Americans, Chinese of fucking martians. These oligarchs fight over who gets the lion's share of profits and they don't care how many bodies it takes to achieve that goal.

This is a key observation. The "Climate Change" and "Covid" smokescreens plus imagined differences in ideology ("communist" vs. "capitalism") are simply attempts to hide the reality, which is who gets the profits. Historically, wars are about power and power determines who controls trade and profits. What is going on now is no different, except that it is the western oligarchs who are trying to provoke conflicts because in an honest and free marked they are losing. Western oligarchs are now also openly looting the western populations by killing off small business in favour of their corporate conglomerates.

The goal of terrorism is to create fear, from fear comes control. Western populations are constantly subject to corporate terrorism, they are bombarded with all kinds of real or imaginary "threats", including computer viruses, false flag terror, "climate change" or "pandemics", all with the effect of increasing oligarch control and thus profit. It is all so laughingly obvious, e.g. Bill Gates created a computer OS wich enabled large profits in "protecting" against computer viruses, and now it is attempted to extend this successful business model to the world OS.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jul 25 2020 7:54 utc | 97

Posted by: A.L. | Jul 25 2020 5:55 utc | 96

Not sure why he should be angry when these comedians has been singing the same tune since the founding of the PRC. The funniest of them all IMO is the ex-Taiwanese president Lee Teng Hui in the 1990s with his incredibly accurate prediction that the PRC would break up into 6 or so independent states in the same decade. I wish this old man good health since every day while he still lives is yet another mark of shame for him.

Posted by: J W | Jul 25 2020 8:05 utc | 98

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jul 25 2020 3:54 utc | 83

I'm more a Daoist myself. I can pretty much guarantee the Chinese government will never be big on that philosophy, which is significantly anarchist.

I referenced in an earlier thread here a text on that subject, the influence of Chinese anarchism on modern China:
Daoism and Anarchism: Critiques of State Autonomy in Ancient and Modern China (Contemporary Anarchist Studies)

They've had more influence, according to that text, than most people know.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 25 2020 8:23 utc | 99

Posted by: JC | Jul 25 2020 5:33 utc | 92 That mad man in the WH determine to go to war to win the presidency.

I'm not so sure. Maybe that madman in the State Department. But the one in the White House just wants to win re-election by pandering to his clown supporters who have been brainwashed (not that it was hard, since most of them hate "foreigners" anyway - my father was one) into hating Chinese for a variety of BS reasons.

So I think he is willing to push it to the point of some sort of military "confrontation" - but not to an actual shooting war.

For two reasons:
1) Even if he isn't, the Pentagon is well aware of Chinese military capability, in particular China's nuclear weapons that can destroy the US just like Russia can.
2) An actual shooting war with a major adversary like China is going to result in many, many US military deaths within a short time frame, and even Trump is smart enough to not want that *before* his second election. *After*, maybe... Not before. (Note: This doesn't apply to Iran because Iran probably can't cause *too many* US deaths before the election - depending, of course, on *when* such a war might start.)

The risk, of course, is that Trump or the Pentagon miscalculate Chinese response and the situation escalates out of control.

A third reason, however, is that there might not be time enough to get a war started before the election. As I mentioned with regard to an Iran war, getting a war started is not *that* easy. Getting a military confrontation started isn't too hard. But setting up the logistics to actually prosecute a real war requires significant time and effort - and there is no evidence that I'm aware of that the US is prepared to do that with China, nor is it likely to be able to do so before the election. If we were to see wholesale movement of forces - other than the two sitting-duck carrier groups we have in the far Pacific - into the region, then perhaps we should become concerned.

Until then, I'm not expecting a war with China this year - and probably not for some time yet. Iran - that's another story.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 25 2020 8:36 utc | 100

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