Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 08, 2020

The U.S. Has Surrendered To The Pandemic. Protect Yourself.

Yesterday the United States registered more than 60,000 new Covid-19 cases. As the number of new cases continues to increase unabated about two weeks from now it is likely to reach hundred thousand new cases per day.

Source: 91-divoc - bigger

The increase of testing is not the cause of higher new case numbers. The rate of people among those who were tested and were found positive has also increased. In Florida, which yesterday had nearly 10,000 new cases, the positive test rate has reached nearly 20%. That means that the epidemic is still accelerating.

This did not need to happen. Yesterday Germany, at a quarter the size of the U.S., had 279 new cases. It does 1 million tests per week and the positive rate is decreasing. China has defeated a new local outbreak in Beijing by testing more than 10 million people. The last two days it reported zero new cases.

Many of those who test positive, especially the younger ones, will not fall ill with severe symptoms. But some 10-15% are estimated to need medical support. How many of them will die depends on the quality of care that can be given to them. Some thirty hospitals in Florida have already run out of space in their intensive care units. That is the point where the real emergency begins.

Six months after the disease was discovered more is known of how to care for Covid-19 cases. The death rate per cases has therefore decreased. But this only holds when there are sufficient beds, doctors and staff available. At the current U.S. rate that will soon no longer be the case.

We do know that the hospitalization curve follows the testing/symptoms curve by some 10-14 days while ICU admittance follows the above curve with some 15 to 20 days delay. The eventual recovery in an ICU bed takes up to four weeks. A bed once occupied will not be available for quite some time.

Trump's new policy is to ignore the epidemic. He hopes that the people will get used to the carnage it causes:

Trump’s advisers [..] are seeking ways to reframe his response to the coronavirus — even as the president himself largely seeks to avoid the topic because he views it as a political loser. They are sending health officials to swing states, putting doctors on TV in regional markets where the virus is surging, crafting messages on an economic recovery and writing talking points for allies to deliver to potential voters.

The goal is to convince Americans that they can live with the virus — that schools should reopen, professional sports should return, a vaccine is likely to arrive by the end of the year and the economy will continue to improve.

White House officials also hope Americans will grow numb to the escalating death toll and learn to accept tens of thousands of new cases a day, according to three people familiar with the White House’s thinking, who requested anonymity to reveal internal deliberations. Americans will “live with the virus being a threat,” in the words of one of those people, a senior administration official.

“They’re of the belief that people will get over it or if we stop highlighting it, the base will move on and the public will learn to accept 50,000 to 100,000 new cases a day,” said a former administration official in touch with the campaign.

That may, to some extent, be possible. But 100,000 new cases per day also means that there will soon be 1,000 or so new deaths per day. The hospitals will fill up and the death rate will increase. More and more people will know someone who died of Covid-19. The economy will continue to only limp along as long as people fear getting infected.

My take is that Trump's calculation is simply wrong. The epidemic will continue to get wide media coverage. The hot spots will change but without local lockdown measures each of them will lead to the overflow of local hospitals. This will increase the death rate.

It is now too late to stop the epidemic in the United States. That makes it even more important for its citizens to take personal safety measures.

All spreading events that affected multiple people took place in enclosed spaces. The virus prefers it cool and dry. Places with unfiltered air conditioning should therefore be avoided. Open a window to create airflow if possible. Stay at a distance from other persons. Wear a mask.

Masks significantly reduce the chance of catching Covid-19. Your mask also protects the people around you should you unknowingly have caught the disease. This week high quality N95 masks (FFP-2 in Europe) were again available in my local pharmacy. The price (€6.80) was ridiculous but I bought two to use them in turn. I put one on whenever I leave the house. (It is not required to wear one outside but I am simply too lazy to put it on and off whenever I enter or leave some place.)

These masks (see pic below) are quite comfortable, tight enough to not fog my glasses and there is no problem breathing through them. The masks are officially one time use only but there are safe and simple ways to steam sterilize them for reuse.

My FFP-2 masks are similar to the one below but white and without a brand name printed on them.


Get used to wearing a mask. It is the new normal that is likely to stay with us for at least another year.

Posted by b on July 8, 2020 at 17:55 UTC | Permalink

« previous page

Please enough with the mask debate. Use them properly and distance where possible. Get it? Got it? Good!
It seems that some of the mask deniers view them as a symbol of lockdown approval. If u feel that the lockdown does more harm than good then still wear a mask.
I see a lot of posters trying to turn debates into black vs white. Run all the info u take in through your common sense filters people. Don't let delusion wrap u up in a warm hug. That being said I think it's safe to say that we're all sick of the whole mask debate and yet there is debate and so many souls to save.
B is trying to point out that (USA) is headed off a cliff into a fire and wants those of u who have to endure that to look out. Some of u value his insight into other issues but want to ignore his advice on the pandemic because you're sick of the subject matter. I understand but the subject matter is still front page news folks whether you're sick of it or not.
To those who believe that how we're dealing with this pandemic is a smoke screen for more (probably) important matters I agree and see very little attention being paid to an impending economic collapse for example. A lot of pissed off angry people are about to go hungry without a safety net. The ripple effects and consequences of the pandemic are just starting and far more important imo.
I know you're only a team of one b but I'd like your talents elsewhere.

Posted by: PleaseBeleafMe | Jul 9 2020 14:21 utc | 201

Muzaffar @187: "I am having a discussion with a friend who insists if Trump is replaced America will shine again."

In the sense that with sufficient effort you can polish poop, I have no doubt that with a front man with carefully cultivated artificial charisma like ol` "Kill List" Obama, and with the best marketing in the world, people can be fooled into believing the see not only shine, but angel wings and halos too.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 9 2020 14:23 utc | 202

john @Jul9 13:00 #192

... and all it took was about 70 years of lockdown.

You're attempting to conflate the recent lockdown with Gaza's treatment by Israel. But the fact is just the opposite. Gaza has benefited from a lockdown that is recent ...
No new cases of the coronavirus have been recorded in the Gaza Strip since 10 June.

This is largely due to a sharp decrease in the number of people moving in and out of Gaza in the past few weeks.

... and the Palestinian Authority has attempted to get Israel (which has many people infected) to also lockdown the West Bank as well (to no avail).

Muzaffar | Jul 9 2020 13:54 utc | 199

what is Gaza doing different?

They are "locked down" and fight the virus instead of accepting the terrible loss of life and hardship that "herd immunity" would cause them.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 9 2020 14:30 utc | 203

JaimeInTexas 201

Its not about acquiring land these days but about acquiring control.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 9 2020 14:33 utc | 204

Trump's dallying on Covid was based on a simple concern: he is worried about revenue streams for his highly leveraged resort and hotel properties. It would look really bad for him to have to declare bankruptcy, especially over a loan from the Bank of China or Vladivostok or Saudi Arabia or Azerbaijan...he has tons of slush fund money that can be used to plug the gap for now, but at some point, even that will run out...

Posted by: ralphieboy | Jul 9 2020 14:37 utc | 205

"Trump's dallying on Covid was based on a simple concern: he is worried about revenue streams for his highly leveraged resort and hotel properties..."
In other words he worked in his own interest, which is the story of his life, though he is not always certain what his real interests are.
Much more worrying is the likelihood that the capitalists, as a class, are taking advantage of the crisis and the circumstances arising from it to socialise the people into accepting the inevitability of epidemics, and the impossibility of preventing them or treating them. It would be much more economical to use them to cull the old and the vulnerable, which is what is currently happening everywhere except in those places-including New Zealand and Vietnam- where life is, in theory at least, treated as priceless.
“No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee.”

Posted by: bevin | Jul 9 2020 14:52 utc | 206

Arizona has now surpased New York's April peak of new daily confirmed cases per capita, and Florida has now surpassed New Jersey's April peak of new daily confirmed cases per capita, both on a single day basis and over a 7-day average.

Graph showing NY/NJ per capita cases surpassed by AZ/FL

Posted by: Canadian Cents | Jul 9 2020 15:08 utc | 207

Empire is financial these days. Shiny metal hats and funny walks are so century before last. Imperialists of today don't care who pretends to own a piece of real estate or collection of resources so long as the imperialists get to command any profits extracted from those properties.

Ex: South China Sea. The US doesn't care if Brunei, Malaysia, the Philippines, or whoever gets it because when it comes to resource extraction (drilling for oil) it will be done by a corporation whose major stockholders are oligarchs in the empire. China, on the other hand, doesn't need to contract the work out to Exxon or Halliburton or some subsidiary. If China had to rely upon US corporations to do the resource extraction then America wouldn't care about the South China Sea at all. There would be no "Freedom of Navigation" operations or any of that nonsense.

So you see, it is still about territory, but only after a fashion. Modern imperialists no longer have to urinate on the borders to mark their territory.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 9 2020 15:08 utc | 208

I grew up in Arizona, have family and friends there and the news distresses me greatly. Because it all could have been prevented.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Jul 9 2020 15:13 utc | 209

@207 bevin

If the epidemics were an isolated incident out of the blue, it might be possible, as you speculate, for the capitalist class to beat the laboring class into accepting the death, terror and loss as the new normal to be accommodated.

But pestilence will be joined by multiple other calamities and poisonings as the planet continues forward under increasing stress from capitalist exploitation - be it climate change, overshoot, whatever we want to call it. So I think there's a good chance that a global crisis period will occur when the rich as a class are wiped from the planet.

I recognize that the rich would prefer to cull the poor and reduce the population to about half a billion workers - this would be their ideal solution to relax the stress on the planet. Whether they will get what they want or not remains an open question, in my opinion.


I know that some will regard it as NOT an open question, but that's the point at which discussion can only end, and can only be replaced with action. The future beckons.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 9 2020 15:24 utc | 210

How many posters on this thread now calling for death to any who fail to agree with them?
Calling for death to those who do not express agreement in correct and approved form?
Calling for death to shut down discussion?

What kind of bar is this?

Posted by: oldhippie | Jul 9 2020 15:28 utc | 211

@ Posted by: oldhippie | Jul 9 2020 15:28 utc | 212

What kind of bar is this?

A crumbling bar.

And, by "bar", I mean the Western Civilization, which was always what this blog's community was about: a bunch of closeted Christian paleoconservatives who idealize the 1950s.

Posted by: vk | Jul 9 2020 15:39 utc | 212

Jackrabbit @ 204

They are "locked down" and fight the virus instead of accepting the terrible loss of life and hardship that "herd immunity" would cause them

yes, but fight it how? the video i linked to doesn't suggest much a lockdown. Gazans are indeed a young and robust crowd and they undoubtedly revere their elders whom they've obviously protected.

as far as 'herd immunity' goes, at least against fear, i'm certain they're light years ahead of the rest of us.

Posted by: john | Jul 9 2020 15:43 utc | 213

Bevin 47

Excellent post....thank you for taking the time to spell it out so completely

Best wishes

Posted by: Muzaffar | Jul 9 2020 15:46 utc | 214

calling people morons is not conductive to any type of positive exchange.... i am disappointed in grieved for supporting that bullshit...

Posted by: james | Jul 9 2020 15:57 utc | 215

@212 oldhippie.. it is an intolerance that is being supported by some, but not by all.... i am disappointed in those who support intolerance... i think there is a saying here - i am intolerant of the intolerant or something like that...

funny how these covid threads attract like bees to honey...

Posted by: james | Jul 9 2020 16:01 utc | 216

What a shock that we have a spike after the country just had a nationwide hissy fit? Also how many new cases illegally come from Mexico? Well at least Hydroxychloroquine has finally been shown to be effective. Sorry for the glibness, but everything is a lie anymore. All they want to do is chip us and give us a vaccine that likely won't work. If we refuse, we'll be at the very least socially canceled. Sooner or later it will be physically canceled. If the death rate doesn't go up, just consider it bioweapon fail with which you will have to live with.

Posted by: Old and Grumpy | Jul 9 2020 16:02 utc | 217

Vk @ 213

I rarely agree with you and often enough do not even read your posts past the first line. And have always said to myself ‘It’s a different perspective and I’ll take a small dose’. Don’t think I’ve ever posted anything addressed specifically to you. No need.

You just hit the nail on the head. Well done.

Posted by: oldhippie | Jul 9 2020 16:09 utc | 218

oldhippie @212: "How many posters on this thread now calling for death to any who fail to agree with them?"

Wouldn't that be all of the ones arguing against wearing masks?

"I want to go back to crowded bars and sports venues, so all you mask people can just die!" is what I am hearing.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 9 2020 16:15 utc | 219

U.S.A. for all its "hi-tech", and "first world" health facilities has about half the coronavirus cases on the planet. Yep, reality is that the U.S.A, us quickly becoming the joke of the whole world. Time to ditch the dollar, forget the U.S.A., and get on to better things.

Posted by: Robert | Jul 9 2020 16:20 utc | 220


I believe it is the rich capitalist class that would like to see our populations grow as that way their will be more for them to exploit. Imagine what would happen to economic enterprizes if population suddenly dwindled. If we the "ordinary folk" are to get out of this cycle of environmental madness, it would have to be by way of us exhibting self control and figuring a way to get control of our population in some humane and ethical way as well as reducing our basic consumption of material goods. Of course getting rid of the rich capitalist folk would certainly be a positive start.

Posted by: Robert Shule | Jul 9 2020 16:35 utc | 221

@ Posted by: oldhippie | Jul 9 2020 16:09 utc | 219

When the MoA mainly published things about Syria, everybody was happy:

1) the Christians could talk about the evils of Zionism;

2) the American secular nationalists could talk about the evils of a bloated military and for the end of interventions in the ME, without menacing the supremacy of the USA over the world (as Syria is not a menace to the American way of life or hegemony);

3) the socialists/communists could talk about the contradictions of imperialism as always;

4) the Europeans (social-democrats) could keep talking about the superiority of their system while eating the proverbial popcorn.

When the Syrian war was over and China begun to ascend (2012) while the Western Civilization begun to crumble (2014-2016), the MoA had to begin to talk about China's success story (and the West's decadence). That's when the "four groups" mentioned above couldn't be pleased at the same time.

The proverbial bar ran out of the proverbial beer. And you know what happens to a bar without alcohol: the fraternal love ends immediately, and fights ensue.

Posted by: vk | Jul 9 2020 16:50 utc | 222

I'm not sure if it was you, Richard Steven Hack who objected to yet another post on the covid situation, but I would say to you that in any case your multiple postings here are extremely valuable and belie the objection. This entity, the virus is continually changing and more important messages are coming forward on its persistence, its challenges, and the results of encountering it. There is really a lot of new information in this thread, so it is a matter of letting the tares grow along with the wheat, to use a biblical expression.

And Sabre, thank you for your polite and kind response to my post. I will explain that I did read carefully your entire original post and there was much that I agree with in your analysis. However, as I saw it the most important thing you have stated again @ 126 is this:

"..Money and lives are both valuable things that we want to maximize. You MUST make trade-offs between them in order to make good decisions..."

This I do not agree with! And thank you for coming right out and saying what you think is true. I find it an infinitely shameful, if true, statement of belief.

We ought to know by now that at least in the US the government has the power to fund important health measures, emergency ones, just as easily as it sends those trillions to the big corporations and it should be doing so!

Not only health but education and food supplies could be treated as the emergencies they are for every person in the community, and the devil take the cost!

This because the true wealth of a country is its people and their welfare ought to be paramount. From that care will come the country's security, its foundation to build a real economy, not just welfare to the rich who have had the government's concern for their welfare for way too long. I am not against a richer class at the top, like cream. This is the stuff pigs feed on -- it is not cream! It is swill.

So, there has to be a different way of building an economy than topdown orchestration of trillions to corporate fatcats that does not benefit anyone but Wall Street!!! Which clearly somebody thinks we have the resources to fund, even though in the end there will be no people at the bottom to do the work of the real economy, the slaves having all died off, as Richard Steven Hack has pointed out.

We need a New Deal now more than we did for the first one!!! And this one ought to say to the top .001%:

"That was then, and you've had your fun. This is now; you are finished!!!"


Thank you b, please keep on keeping on.

Posted by: juliania | Jul 9 2020 16:55 utc | 223

And I will add to that list of emergencies, housing. Sorry I left that out.

Posted by: juliania | Jul 9 2020 16:59 utc | 224

@224 juliania

You will like this article by Indi Smarajiva:
Old Lives Matter

Western countries that haggled demographics with this virus have gotten hammered. Eastern countries that fought for every single life have done well. In this case, the right thing is the smart thing, and if you’re debating sacrificing grandma you’re both an asshole and dumb. [...] If the virus infects grandma, it also infects her family, or her caregivers. Those people continue going to work and infecting people there. Yes, it kills younger people less, but it still kills them a lot. If you try to bargain with a contagious disease you just get more disease. It’s a devil’s bargain.

The West keeps offering up human sacrifices — their old people, their minorities, their medical workers, their working-class — and the virus keeps saying…. nothing. It’s a fucking virus. It doesn’t negotiate. You either fight for every life or it spreads.

The modern west is honestly worse than the Aztecs because human sacrifice back then at least wasn’t contagious.
The countries that have bent or eliminated the curve have fought for every single life.

The economics of culling the old population could only look attractive from a neoliberal perspective, which knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 9 2020 17:19 utc | 225

Thank you, Grieved @ 226, yes I do!

Posted by: juliania | Jul 9 2020 18:03 utc | 226

@ 223 juliania..thanks for addressing this comment from sabre which i too don't agree with... as usual - i always appreciate reading what you have to say!

Posted by: james | Jul 9 2020 18:09 utc | 227

James, they are morons. Sorry, but they are.

Posted by: juliania | Jul 9 2020 18:09 utc | 228


saying this to long time posters who have contributed a lot of value and insight to moa seems really wrong and unfriendly to me.... i have a very hard time with grieved supporting rsh in this.... it is an unfriendly attitude towards others and while some might think it is acceptable, it isn't.... it's intolerance as i see it, especially when you look at the specifics of it... has sabre called you a moron? has old hippie called grieved or rsh a moron?? once this can of worms opens up, it just turns everything into shite... i am not into it and i lose respect for people i would ordinarily hold a lot of respect for..

Posted by: james | Jul 9 2020 18:20 utc | 229

james @ 229

Well, such is the way that many important blogs seem to evolve. From a gem of a resource, to a co-opted platform for any number of keyboard blowhards, that devolves into a sandbox for people who love to hear their own voices. Any disagreement is greeted with derogatory remarks and ad hominem attacks. Sad to see that MoA is headed that way. It was a good site while it lasted. Looks like moving on is the way forward. Cheers.

Posted by: Digital Spartacus | Jul 9 2020 19:03 utc | 230

"How many posters on this thread now calling for death to any who fail to agree with them?"

yeah but come on... people disagree. people get upset when they're not listened to. that's human nature.

sure some are too impatient, too repetitive, axe to grind, refuse to believe anyyhing not seen with their own eyes, etc etc.

So be it. If I want to see a monoculture of beliefs I can go watch cnn/fox.

Posted by: ptb | Jul 9 2020 19:06 utc | 231

Is MIT graduate Dr. Andrew Kauffman stupid, or a conspiracy theorist? I say neither. I ask the same question of German Virologist Stefan Lanka. Nether are either. I strongly urge everyone who has a doubt over what is going on world wide to look and listen to one or both of these brave men.
You may ask, why only a handful of doctors agree with these 2 guys. Well, that question is answerable in the frame work of the system. If a student of medicine in his thesis years, or a virologist, desires or needs funding they won't get it if they go against the norm in germ and virus theory. It's similar to 911, when a curious reporter, would and has been fired or de-published, called a conspiracy nut, for going against his common sense and the state's approved explanation. Here's an example: On that Tuesday morning in September 2001 we all watched the same broadcast of those terrible events. (all major stations broadcast the same video and audio, no exceptions). When the 2nd plane hit the south tower it was filmed exiting, intact, the opposite side of the building. That was a physical impossibility, but there it was. Did, any MSM station, that day or anytime after, expand on what we saw? No-one, not one MSM station, then or today, will go through that mornings events frame by frame, pointing out the obvious. That's exactly what is happening with the virus numbers. The PTB informed us all that, in every possible case of death, COVID19 will be credited. That means: you die of lung cancer but have the Corona Virus, your death is tagged COVID19.Even though anyone can be diagnosed positive by today's available PCR test. They told us they were doing it this way, and we sheepishly said nothing. My daughter asked me; when this will end? I answered. When the media says it's over. Nothing has changed. And B, I respect you and this site. I am not saying that there is not an illness. There obviously is. However, what it is versus what is reported, may be 2 separate things. Like 911 this is a psy-op, and should, by responsible reporters, be called for what it really is. Death rates are down cases are up. Please explain? Waffling, contradicting, orders to mask up, close up, open up, close up again, are not explainable. Only in the sense of pandemonium and chaos, does any of this make sense. Here's a quote I took from Yoichi Shimatsu:

Posted by: joetv | Jul 9 2020 19:31 utc | 232

I just commented above, but the quote I posted didn't take. So here it is again. It's by Yoichi Shimatsu, and very relative to today.

We are living in a bubble of illusion left by a stronger generation that fought and won the Second World War and the Cold War. We, however, are not of the same mettle as our fathers and grandfathers in terms of raw courage and physical endurance, but have grown up comfortable and soft, and worse spiritless in defense of core values.

Posted by: joetv | Jul 9 2020 19:34 utc | 233

I am about to let you all in on the REAL TRUTH about what this corona virus is really all about. But there is still a good chance I am wrong. I sure hope I'm wrong.

But first some details from my fairly extensive readings. Of course these details could always be off the mark, but here goes.

First, I would not count on steam to disinfect this virus. I read that it is very resistant to heat and can withstand temperatures bordering on the boiling point of water. I wash my hands with plain dish detergent when I come home (but I don't leave that often). When out and about I use 70% rubbing alcohol, which is more irritating to the skin, but leaves no soap on the skin. I think they about equally effective, and they work in the same way, by binding water to the virus's waxy lipid coat, which causes it to unravel. I even heard that 100% pure alcohol will not kill the virus, but it is the water that pulls the virus apart, and makes it unravel.

The mask situation is quite complex and perplexing. I see some people wearing skimpy bandannas that probably do very little. From my electronics background I am inclined to have serious doubts about the 'electrostatic charge' notion, since where the heck does that 'electrostatic charge' come from? I often wear a 'military shemagh' mask (costs about $10 on eBay). This is a simple cotton cape-like piece of cloth that people in the desert wrap around their heads to protect eyes and lungs from fierce dust storms. I put two together and fold them about four times, for eight layers. I spray them with water to dampen them, and this water has about 7% dish detergent plus enough hydrophilic fructose powder to make it slightly viscous (the fructose is so attractive to water that the mask takes two days to dry out on dry days). If the virus contacts any layer of this mask it becomes a 'dead' virus. It's a bit heavy so I wear a cord overhead attached to both sides to keep it above my nose (looks kinda funny). My doctor thinks it's PROBABLY a good idea.

I try for 'physical spacing as best I can. I pretend that everybody around me is smoking a cigarette, and I don't want to smell it (they say that this virus can 'ride' on tobacco smoke). I take lots of vitamin D3, zinc gluconate, and ascorbic acid (vitamin C).

Now for the promised REAL TRUTH about what this corona virus.

I suspect that this 'covid' epidemic only masks the final end of the all-time economic super cycle. So, the West is about to undergo a total economic collapse, and this will be blamed entirely on the virus pandemic, instead of on the greedy bankers and rich oligarchs, et al. It provides absolutely perfect cover. So perhaps the virus was created and dispersed by some Western agency. That's what I think.

Posted by: blues | Jul 9 2020 19:43 utc | 234

@ 230 Digital Spartacus... lets hope some here come back to their senses.... we don't have to have everyone seeing everything the same way and we don't have to refer to others that see it differently as morons... i expect more from some here... if they let me down, so be it... i continue to have faith in our ability to rise to a higher standard then calling others morons if they have a different viewpoint.. thanks for your comment!

Posted by: james | Jul 9 2020 20:06 utc | 235

james @ 235

It isn't so much that there are dissenting opinions, it's the lack of civility here that irks me. I liken it to the idea that once the shouting starts, you've lost the argument. Everybody here reads from a variety of sources so disagreements are inevitable as opinions are shaped by what we read. But to downplay someone else's opinion by insisting they are less informed or moronic doesn't advance understanding of the issues being discussed. I, too, had hoped for a higher calibre of discourse here. A lot of the joy of coming here was because of the comments section, graciously monitored by b, as there are and were many astute observers here. It serves no purpose here now to read the comments.

Posted by: Digital Spartacus | Jul 9 2020 20:15 utc | 236

digital spartacus... we are on the same page...however, i still hold out hope... i am described by my friends as overly idealistic and of giving people the benefit of the doubt when most others will have moved on... i hope you stick around... thanks for this conversation!

Posted by: james | Jul 9 2020 20:24 utc | 237

I think the problem mostly shows up on the Covid threads. I peruse them quickly , and I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure there is not one poster who has changed his position on Covid.

Posted by: arby | Jul 9 2020 20:25 utc | 238

Posted by: blues | Jul 9 2020 19:43 utc | 234

>>First, I would not count on steam to disinfect this virus. I read that it is very resistant to heat and can withstand temperatures bordering on the boiling point of water

It is actually not resistant to heat, especially moist heat. Moist heat is far better at killing microorganisms that dry heat.

One study did find that some smaller percentage of it survived in *dirty* surfaces at 80C 30 minutes dry heat (in oven), but it did not survive in cleaner surfaces. Steam is at least 100C, almost nothing can survive it and it is widely used for baby feeding items sterilisation for example.

One of the medical rules for masks is that visibly dirty masks (stained for example) should not be reused.

Other studies found that it dies fast at 70C - 80C dry heat.

Specifically, here are studies about using dry heat on respirator masks to kill Sars Cov 2.

Here is a study on moist heat being much more effective at killing highly resistant microorganisms compared to dry heat.
A key point.

The UK government also recommends using steam for surface cleaning against Sars Cov 2.

Additionaly, you should know that microwave generated steam is better at killing microorganisms compared to ordinary steam, as the water molecules of the steam and within the mask start to vibrate due to the microwaves and that kills microorganisms even faster.

This is why you need 30 minutes dry heat to kill most microorganisms, but only 2 minutes using MGS.

Posted by: Passer by | Jul 9 2020 20:28 utc | 239

arby @ 238

I agree...this topic seems to bring out the zealot in a lot of posters here. I also believe you're right, that no one has changed their position based on the large number of sites that have been cited here. And I think we all know that for every site someone uses as irrefutable "proof" of something, it's very easily refuted by something that someone else found elsewhere.
You're welcome James.

Posted by: Digital Spartacus | Jul 9 2020 20:30 utc | 240

"I suspect that this 'covid' epidemic only masks the final end of the all-time economic super cycle."

I am not understanding the purpose of requiring a mask to disguise capitalism reaching its natural limits and self-destructing like Marxists expect it to do on occasion. It is not possible for the same powers to emerge on top that were on top before the crisis, as the capital they control needs to be redistributed if capitalist markets are going to develop renewed vitality. The only alternative to that is to "acquire" new markets.

More likely the connection between the "novel coronavirus" and the stalemate in capitalist profitability is more classic. Normally when capitalism finds itself in this bind it will resort to war and destroying other capitalists' capital and seizing their markets, as with the case of the big wars in the first half of last century. Unfortunately the existence of nuclear weapons makes such wars on a scale large enough to "reset" markets an unwise move for the capitalists. Instead of risking just the destruction of their own capital in an effort to destroy other capitalists' capital, they risk ending the game altogether. Basically, to restore real economic growth in the US, Asia's economy (productive capacity) needs to be destroyed. China having nukes means that we cannot use bombs to accomplish that destruction as was done to Europe last century. A weapon is needed that can cripple a country's economy, but is not likely to trigger a nuclear response.

Enter covid.

What is happening to the US right now was supposed to happen to China instead. Since the "novel coronavirus" was greatly improved over the first SARS virus and far more virulent, the Chinese shouldn't have been able to defeat it. Since the virus was tuned for Asian characteristics, and since America and the rest of the West have expensive and presumably very effective healthcare systems, the virus was never supposed to gain a foothold in the West. Much to the surprise of the war planners in Washington, neither of those expectations panned out. The Chinese treated the virus like a biological attack (because it was) and mobilized their entire country to defeat it. Because viruses are not good at following orders, the "novel coronavirus" mutated slightly to greatly expand the number of hosts available to it, and thus became highly infectious among non-Asians. Suddenly the virus was no longer a laughing matter in Washington as it began to rage through populations that the original version wasn't designed for.

Call it karma, or the biggest own goal of all time. In any case, war is to be expected at this stage in capitalism's "cycle", so the empire deploying weapons against its "adversaries" should not at all be a surprise, and using a virus probably seemed like a good idea at the time. But cooking up that virus just to disguise the fact that capitalism is going through a crisis that nobody can do anything about anyway? I don't see the point in that. It is not as if there are many real socialists in America that could propose a workable solution that would be a threat to capitalism anyway, so why such a drastic move? Doesn't make much sense.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 9 2020 20:49 utc | 241

Posted by: blues | Jul 9 2020 19:43 utc | 234

>>I even heard that 100% pure alcohol will not kill the virus, but it is the water that pulls the virus apart, and makes it unravel.

Only use 60% to 80 % alcohol for disinfection, and also not methanol. When it is below that it is too weak and when above that it causes fast coagulation of the microorganism surface leading to the alcohol not being able to penetrate it.

>>I am inclined to have serious doubts about the 'electrostatic charge' notion, since where the heck does that 'electrostatic charge' come from?

Here is the inventor of the electrostatically charged fibre used for respirator masks and his thoughts on this.

"Tsai’s invention is not new. He filed the first patent for the filtration technology back in 1995. His invention gives the masks' filter fabric a permanent electrostatic charge by exposing it to a halo of electricity. Scientists call this an electrical “corona.” Tsai named his process “coronal charging.”

>>If the virus contacts any layer of this mask it becomes a 'dead' virus.

Problem is it won't contact it if its not a special material that uses several methods to capture particles.

Still, eight layers sounds better than nothing and it should have some effect.

Posted by: Passer by | Jul 9 2020 21:00 utc | 242

This comment section is a perfect demonstration as to why we're fucked.

Posted by: barovsky | Jul 8 2020 19:11 utc | 28

I quote the Chief Medical Officer for the UK, Chris Whitty:

For the vast majority (85%) the virus is NOT life threatening, most don't even know they've had it. Even most of those with co-morbities, survive, the overall death rate (not the total numbers) is around 0.1%

And what of the half-dead, the ones that didn't die but didn't "return to normal" after contracting COVID-19?

We're finding out that the number of deaths have been under-reported. We don't friggin know what the true numbers are. This is STILL early in the game.

Given that the US and UK have reacted poorly to this virus I'd think that the claims/statements by representatives of either country ought to be viewed with less than full acceptance as fact.

This virus isn't like polio where one either gets it or doesn't, that one either lives or dies. We are seeing people who have continuing damage from COVID-19; whether this is permanent or not we will never know without the passage of time. With a sure degradation of people's economic positions is it wise to risk a possible future of handicap with reduced medical care (due to declining economy)?

Look up "COVID-19 long-haulers" to see why "0.1%" is a stupid figure to cite.

Posted by: Seer | Jul 9 2020 21:06 utc | 243

Gruff, I agree. If the system does fall apart this time, then in all probability it will be blamed on the virus.

Are Viruses Alive

Posted by: arby | Jul 9 2020 21:08 utc | 244

@ Posted by: blues | Jul 9 2020 19:43 utc | 234

100% alcohol doesn't work because it evaporates too quickly. 50% doesn't work because it has too little alcohol and too much water. 70% seems to be the only concentration (commercially available) that work, as it has enough alcohol to kill the virus (99%) and enough water for it to stay on the surface for enough time for it to attack the virus.

Posted by: vk | Jul 9 2020 21:11 utc | 245

Seer @ 243

Finally, some perspective.

Posted by: Digital Spartacus | Jul 9 2020 21:17 utc | 246

When you hear someone say "this didn't need to happen" this is a clear sign they are listening to the work of Chris Martenson

The problem is that Martenson is a shill.

Just last week Martenson was claiming the case fatality rate was between 7-10% (It is in fact nearer to 0.1%.)

Martenson is a vaccine proponent and reckons Fauci is a stand up guy. Nuff said.

Posted by: ian seed | Jul 9 2020 23:13 utc | 247


from Kay Fabe:

Anyways, deaths are trending lower, getting to pre-epidemic/lockdown status. Its ovah for corona. May she rest in peace although she has made a lot of billionares richer so she will no doubt be replaced

From Kevin:

If the cases are exploding, why are the deaths declining. I have yet to hear an explanation for this.


Third straight day of exploding US death tolls, third straight day of 7 day moving average deaths on the rise.
Explanation of deaths lagging increase in cases explainable by the timeline from initial infection to death.

What say you KF and Kevin

Posted by: lone plateau | Jul 10 2020 6:04 utc | 248

james, pardon me for offending. First, I have never called anyone directly a moron, and while I won't go checking on Richard, it's my understanding he doesn't do so in individual terms but generally as I did (could be wrong on that). However, earlier in this thread he posted some very helpful news items, factual posts, and on that score Grieved thanked him as did I. I actually consider the term somewhat less ascerbic when used in a general way so that's how I used it, as a kinder way to address folk who haven't seen the sensibility of donning a mask to deter the spread of a virulent disease. This is a very serious problem in the US right now, and yes, I do consider such behavior moronic, which is a milder form of saying that such people are off their rockers. Would you prefer that I say they have lost all proportion, they have gone round the bend, they don't have all their marbles?

I don't think saying they have a different opinion is quite strong enough, frankly, though in answering a response to me directly, I will always be as polite as possible, and they usually respond in kind. That's how it works well; I agree. I did have strong disaffection with myself for even using the strong argument I used with Sabre, and I hereby also apologize for that. It wasn't meant personally, but might have sounded so.

My post @ 228 was lightly meant but if it offends, I am glad to withdraw it.

Posted by: juliania | Jul 10 2020 8:40 utc | 249

Is MoA a scientist ,a doctor of some kind ,an expert in the field of pandemics ...? No . But he keeps preaching ...on and on .

Posted by: Czerny | Jul 10 2020 9:15 utc | 250

The EU knows better: all borders are open, even the UK can travel outside without quarantines, and this is in my estimation 3 weeks
before we see a peak in the UK (thanks to pubs and beaches crowds).
No difference with the US. Money and entertainment rule instead of solidarity and consciousness.
I haven't seen pictures of temperature taking in EU airports. Move on...

Posted by: Mina | Jul 10 2020 10:58 utc | 251

I'm late to this thread, but my niece (a new physician in a university hospital) just pointed out something to me regarding masks that for some reason I hadn't thought about. I just bought a 10-pack of N95 masks (the kind without the purpose-defeating exhale vent), and mentioned to her I had thought hanging the used masks outside in the sun would be a pretty good way to disinfect them for re-use without being too hard on the mask. My niece said they simply had one mask for each day of the week, so by the time they got back around to re-using a mask it was naturally disinfected. Doh! Of course! Aside from special cases like freezing or something, the virus only lives a matter of hours outside a host, or up to two or three days max on certain surfaces like stainless steel or plastics. Point is, no need to induce wear on masks by putting them in the oven, microwaving, or other harsh solutions. Simply store a used mask in a warm, well-ventilated place for two or three days between use and you should be fine.

Posted by: J Swift | Jul 10 2020 13:46 utc | 252

Wow. More virus fear porn. How original. The reason so many people died in the Bronx and Queens is poor health care. The wealthy are fine. Rather than intubation followed by death the wealthy actually receive treatment. They get the math+ protocol and Hydroxychloroquine with zinc if they are smart. Funny how nobody is talking about Sweden anymore. How did they really do by the way? How closely was that really looked at? Were the other countries and their media (plus Moon of Alabama) just in full blown CYA mode? Sweden Comparison not based on propaganda

Posted by: Goldhoarder | Jul 10 2020 14:05 utc | 253

@ 249 juliania... thanks... if you look more closely you can see rsh calling old hippie a moron @ 175..old hippie is a generous and fairly gracious poster too fwiw... so, while rsh may make the comment in a general sense, it isn't always the case... i get what you are saying... thanks..

Posted by: james | Jul 10 2020 15:49 utc | 254

Posted by: J Swift | Jul 10 2020 13:46 utc | 252

Unfortunately, J Swift, newer studies have found that Sars Cov 2 could survive for up to 8 days on a mask, for up to 7-8 days on metal and plastic (that at 22C), and for at least one month at 4C temperature. It is very stable in cold environments.

Yes, the mask rotation method is not bad, and decreases the threat, but the threat remains. This is why US health official guidlines back up hydrogen peroxide vapor, UVGI light, or moist heat decontamination, in cases where mask reuse is necessery. Not to mention that many other pathogens can survive mask rotation. A large amount of studies, including by 3M, have validated these methods.

If they are using just mask rotation, and nothing else, in order to reuse masks, they are violating medical rules in the hospital.

The rotation method can be used in conjuction with other decontamination methods but it is not sufficient in itself.

Posted by: Passer by | Jul 10 2020 21:24 utc | 255

Call it karma, or the biggest own goal of all time.
William Gruff | Jul 9 2020 20:49 utc

I truly and sincerely hope your scenario is not what actually happened. It would really suck to know such people walk among us.

Posted by: dan of steele | Jul 10 2020 22:02 utc | 256

The reason the COVID-19 test for immunity remains low, typically less than 10% so far is that COVID-19 is not a novel unique virus as advertised.

COVID-19 is the seventh coronavirus that has been identified since 2002.

As reported by the BBC,scientists have discovered that a large segment of the population already has the T-Cell reactors that characterize the natural immunity to COVID-19 .  For every person that tested positive for  COVID-19 specific cell immunity, two more tested as having the same T-Cell reactors.

This basic framework for the virus cycle was evident from the first virus episode, the Princess Diamond cruise ship stranded off-shore near Japan.

Despite the unusually easy transmission of the virus, only 17% the Princess Diamond passengers and crew tested positive for the virus. This implies that more than 70% of people exposed to the virus simply repel the virus without being infected.

This framework is being proven by the crashing death rate in places where the virus has already thoroughly spread.

Herd immunity beckons for Sweden and  parts of the United States.

Posted by: Liberty Blogger | Jul 12 2020 22:10 utc | 257

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