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July 9, 2020
Open Thread 2020-54
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I had never heard of ISGP so I just had a look. The reference to moonofalabama is wrong. I find the reference was made in one of the comments, not by b. himself. Not exactly a good start.
Browsing through the articles my first impression is they are actually thorough and well researched.
I can see that censorship certainly is not the only thing why people don’t know the site and there are things in it which put people off : there are dissonant points of view which will offend one crowd or another. For instance an article on black crime concluding black people commit more murder. Or an article on Epstein concluding his record as an actual rapist is mild and the claim of ‘rigging his place with cameras’ is false, while putting the emphasis on the corrupting nature of his network. I think there is value in that point of view. There is a good degree of independent thinking. I intend dig a bit deeper to see if he(or his associates?) ruins it with ‘connecting the dots’ type thinking. Whatever the outcome it could still be a useful resource.
Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Jul 11 2020 10:06 utc | 101
For all the complaints about Erdogan and his pals turning Hagia Sophia back into a mosque – something of which I entirely disapprove, the museum status was the correct one. Nevertheless, there’s a lot of hypocrisy going on by the complainers – the Catholic Church has resolutely refused to disgorge the mosque in Cordoba to become a museum (there’s a 16th century cathedral implanted in the middle of the building, which was not otherwise damaged). Muslims attempting to say their prayers in the building are arrested and fined, but none of the complainers says anything. It’s a scandal if Muslims do something, but no-one says a word when Christians do precisely the same. Atatürk was of course strongly anti-Muslim, which is how Hagia Sophia became a museum in the first place. The Spanish are not so liberal-minded.
Posted by: Laguerre | Jul 11 2020 10:27 utc | 102
File this under For Future Use. Can anyone use this?
Take a hyperbole – square it and then double it.
A hyperbole squared and then doubled,
now that is a hyperbole.
Was reading about the CIA war in Afghanistan 1970s and 80s,
and reminded of the CIA bee poop scandal.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/07/10/i-could-live-with-that-how-the-cia-made-afghanistan-safe-for-the-opium-trade
It was a “fact,” [CBS Dan] Rather announced, that the Soviets had used chemical weapons against Afghan villagers. This was a claim promoted by the Reagan administration, which charged that the extraordinarily precise number of 3,042 Afghans had been killed by this yellow chemical rain, a substance that had won glorious propaganda victories in its manifestation in Laos a few years earlier, when the yellow rain turned out to be bee feces heavily loaded with pollen. As Frank Brodhead put it in the London Guardian, “Its composition: one part bee feces, plus many parts State Department disinformation mixed with media gullibility.”
‘Where oh where,’ I wondered did the CIA come up with “the extraordinarily precise number of 3,042” ?
The answer could be found elsewhere in the same article.
There was a Hitler hyperbole floating out there at about the same time as the “yellow chemical rain”, care of the MIC-Mouthpiece the NYT.
Specifically rendered by the “NYT Defense Department correspondent” — or to put it another way, the
Defense Department’s correspondent at the NYT — Drew Middleton.
Drew Middleton, then a New York Times Defense Department correspondent, filed a tremulous post-invasion analysis in January 1980: “The conventional wisdom in the Pentagon,” he wrote, “is that in purely military terms, the Russians are in a far better position vis-à-vis the United States than Hitler was against Britain and France in 1939.”
Pentagon Wisdom
c/o the NYT
“In purely military terms, the Russians are in a far better position
vis-à-vis the United States
than Hitler was
against Britain and France in 1939.”
Pretty good hyperbole, no? A Hitler invoking hyperbole, no less.
So…never let a good hyperbole just sit there on the shelf.
Square it and then double it.
“Hitler in 1939”
Take ’39
square it
and then double it
and that is how many Afghans died from “yellow chemical rain”, Washington tells us –
3042
(Grab your calculator and see. 39 squared is 1521. Double 1521 and you get 3042)
Frank Brodhead almost had it when he said,
As Frank Brodhead put it in the London Guardian, “Its composition: one part bee feces, plus many parts State Department disinformation mixed with media gullibility.”
We discovered an additional formula:
Take a good hyperbole – square it and then double it.
Posted by: librul | Jul 11 2020 10:30 utc | 103
Interesting article on the Ghislaine Maxwell arrest and charges:
https://wallstreetonparade.com/2020/07/ghislaine-maxwell-wall-streets-secrets-and-the-u-s-attorneys-office/
Wall Street on Parade is a good website overall. Worth looking at many of their articles.
Posted by: teri | Jul 11 2020 11:37 utc | 104
This is the smell of the Democrazis:
The man responsible for some of the most inhumane punishment of whistleblower Chelsea Manning stands a good chance of becoming a Democratic Congressional candidate. On July 14, Democrats in Alabama’s First District will go back to the polls to choose from one of two candidates. In the March primary, James Averhart finished less than 2,000 votes behind leader Kiani Gardner, forcing a runoff. A 30-year military veteran, Averhart began as a Marine infantryman in 1987 before transferring to the Military Police and becoming a corrections officer. Between 2010 and 2011, he was in charge of the military brig at Quantico, VA, where Manning was held on 22 counts of leaking classified information to Wikileaks.
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jul 11 2020 11:38 utc | 105
Bickering, fighting and commenting on commenters while the beer goes stale, I’ll wish a warm-hearted FU to the new wave of resident backsliders and bait-slingers. You’re on watch..
UT: You’re late to the game ie Argentina, look into it. Oh and yes debs, backhandle it and own it..
Posted by: Lozion | Jul 11 2020 13:10 utc | 107
There is an important article on the Grayzone about Bill Gates. I like that they avoid depicting Gates as an evil mastermind. I am not convinced by the data on vaccines being ‘bad choices driven by financial gain’.
Gates is an entrepreneur and a capitalist. The capitalist approach is based on ideology(capitalism is good) and pragmatism(how to get things done in a capitalist world). I think criticism of people like that should focus on understanding the role of capitalism and on distribution of power , more than on evil intent. I think Gates believes in approaches which make people rich and at the same time deliver value.
I believe in checks and balances and in integrity and I think he’ll fuck things up . But not because he’s an evil mastermind. In a similar way I think Al Gore hopes to address global warming through capitalism, assisted by all the modern tools of getting things done, including massive PR. He’ll fuck things up in a similar way too.
Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Jul 11 2020 13:19 utc | 108
Posted by: vk | Jul 10 2020 17:34 utc | 71
The greedy jesuits lost the money of charity during lockdowns .. somehow they must be able to eat too..poor guys..they need money for lawyers too..being sex assaulters has a price for the catholic church.
Posted by: LuBa | Jul 11 2020 14:13 utc | 109
@96 uncle
I see it another way.
Flynn was the two birds with one stone immediately following POTUS’ election.
Flynn had bucked the trend on employing jihadis in the MENA and was quite vocal about it. MCchrystal and Flynn were no doubt on the same page about a lot of the Obama-methods in the MENA as they carried over from prior Neocon-instruction.
By indicting Flynn, you offered up bait to POTUS, too, that he could die on that hill defending Flynn and making himself further into some jealous Russia-lover. But as we have seen time in and time out, Trump views those around him as straw dogs, to be thrown on the ground and trampled when he is done with them.
What good was Mattis when the buck stopped with Trump? A broad coalition, which we are seeing currently, is the thing able to stop or impede Trump’s Afghan withdrawal.
Again, Flynn did not get to where he was by being the dullest tac in the box. You can say that, but it doesn’t make it true.
Flynn does not take POTUS’ lack of support as a slight, coming from a businessman of course. Rather, the whole affair probably tought Flynn something about restraint and not taking the bait.
Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jul 11 2020 14:43 utc | 111
@ Posted by: Laguerre | Jul 11 2020 10:27 utc | 102
As long as these kind of bickering remain in the sphere of the theological, I see no problem: they can kill themselves for eternity for all I care.
The problem is that the Russian Patriarch called it an “existential threat” to the “entire Russian people”. That means he’s willing to start a real war between Russia and Turkey because of a building.
Christians have a history in turning their personal problem into a universal problem. As soon as Constantine, for all intents and purposes, turned the Roman Empire officially Christian, the future emperors had to deal with internal strife among different factions of Christianity (which they always petitioned to the emperor, and started riots if he didn’t listened) non-stop. The first wars against Persia in the name of defending the Christian minorities living there also begun. Some emperors literally lost their lives because they couldn’t solve another Christian schism, and the Roman Empire wasn’t able to reunite later in good part because of the schism between Catholics and Orthodox (the Catholics, as leverage against the Emperor in the East, chose the side of the Franks, putting a definitive end to the empire in the west).
At least the Islamic can claim to have founded their empire. The Christians are mere parasites. Sincerely, from the point of view of a non-religious person raised in the West, there’s no difference between the Abrahamic religions: they’re all essentially Christians with different flavors to me.
NemesisCalling @Jul11 4:14 @93
Are you saying Flynn was set-up and that this set-up was sanctioned by POTUS who knew about this?
Yup. Along with Manafort who had been warned that his work in Ukraine was counter to US interests and the smearing of Wikileaks/Assange as complicit in “Russian meddling” in the US election to make it easier to arrest Assange.
=
So why would Flynn not condemn POTUS? Indeed, he even put out an OP-ED …
It’s the smart move. You might also ask why Syria and Venezuela allow USA bullying. Why get bogged down in war with USA/Trump. Better to move past.
=
Are you saying that Flynn would not know after three years that POTUS was actually complicit in his indictment?
Flynn likely knows – especially after he fired his lawyers that weren’t doing him any good and found one that would fight on his behalf. His strange sweetheart to represent a Turkish company with ties to the Turkish government would probably have done him in but the call with Russian Ambassador Kislyak presented an opportunity to charge him.
<> <> <> <> <>
Important context: the 2016 Presidential election was clearly a sham. Hillary faced her good friends Sanders and Trump. Sanders was a sheepdog that wouldn’t raise questions about Hillary’s character and fitness for office, and Hillary threw the election to Trump by alienating (progressives), ignoring (blacks), or insulting (white “deplorables”) important groups that she needed to win. In the closing weeks, she refused to go to campaign in the 3 states she knew would decide the election.
To counter Russia and China, Kissinger had advocated for a resurgent USA based on past glory (essentially MAGA) in a 2014 WSJ Op-Ed. Trump entered the Presidential race 10 months later.
!!
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 11 2020 15:06 utc | 113
NemesisCalling @Jul11 14:43 #111
By indicting Flynn, you offered up bait to POTUS, too, that he could die on that hill defending Flynn …
This is the view of those that believe that the partisan divide is real.
The fact is, the Empire is a bi-partisan affair and the two-party system is mostly a charade. Establishment Democrats and Republicans (which means the vast majority of both) drink from the same poisoned well of industry lobbyists, MIC, and AIPAC.
!!
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 11 2020 15:15 utc | 114
@ 90 jackrabbit… i am not sure what you mean by this – “I’ve said it many times now: IMO Manafort, Flynn, Assange were targets that were set up via the 2016 Deep State selection of the US President.” if you want to explain that more — feel free…
@ 101 Tuyzentfloot…. – @9 stubbs gave the correct answer…. .com is not .org…. it is a minor but important distinction to make! however the link that @3 doubter provides has changed this minor detail over the past 24 hours…. i thought it was just promo for their site, and it seems clear they are reading the comments on it here at moa too…. regarding your link to the january 2017 article – the post by Roman rugantine | Jan 13 2017 19:32 utc | 60 – is where one can read the quote… perhaps @ 3 doubter and @ 60 roman rugantine are the same person on a promo drive for the website??? looks like it… at any rate – thanks for finding that!!
Posted by: james | Jul 11 2020 15:41 utc | 115
@113 jr
I have already said your view on this is moronic and fails to see that the much more likely reality is that two factions of elite are vying for control. The old-money with Trump are more confederated forces against the career beauracrats and centralized forms up against POTUS.
Hillary desperately wanted to win in her hilarious and shameful arrogance. Tge fact that you don’t recognize this is proof that you will do anything to make the square pieces fit into your round holes.
Was McChrystal’s firing also a lead-in into your narrative?
Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jul 11 2020 15:46 utc | 116
Tuyzentfloot | Jul 11 2020 13:19 utc | 108:
IIRC, Gates already fucked up in India. I believe 200,000 children were affected.
Posted by: Ian2 | Jul 11 2020 16:00 utc | 117
NemesisCalling @Jul11 15:46 #116
McChrystal’s firing also a lead-in into your narrative?
McChrystal was fired in 2010, long before planning for the 2016 election.
<> <> <> <>
I’d ask you to explain Trump’s nomination of Gina Haspel for CIA Director.
The “law and Order” President nominated a women that had destroyed evidence in a Congressional Investigation. And she was supported by Trump’s supposed ‘Never-Trump’ nemesis John Brennan. A third strike against her: Trump’s misogyny.
VP Pence was a rather curious pick as well. He was close with supposed Trump-hater John McCain.
Acosta, who arranged the sweetheart deal for Epstein got a cabinet post despite Trump’s insistence that he had distanced himself from Epstein. Was Trump unaware of the the sweetheart deal even though he claims to have barred Epstein from Mar-a-Lago?
William Barr is said to be close to Robert Mueller. And Barr’s father helped Epstein get started.
So many strange connections. So incestuous at the top. But apologist water-carriers insist that it any suspicion of collusion is bonkers.
!!
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 11 2020 16:24 utc | 118
@james 116, I see that ISGP noticed their sloppiness and corrected the quote. Now this leads to the unfortunate situation where you use as praise ‘some commenter at moonofa mentioned my site in positive terms’. Better to remove such a reference then and accept that very few people know ISGP despite many years of hard work.
And on your other remark, I have no problem believing that more than one commenter at moonofa has discovered that site independently.
Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Jul 11 2020 18:22 utc | 119
@118 jr
I will admit to you that the feeding of all these relationships by the media is titillating. But I would posit that you, yes, little old plebian you, and me, will never ever know what really happened on Lolita Island, whether or not Lolita Island ever existed as described, and whether or not Epstein is even dead or if they even have his Madame fixed up in the NY jail like they say they do.
You can create fall guys out of anyone and you can create narratives out of mist. For you to swallow all the little tidbits that the media throws you says, I believe, a lot about what you are willing to admit is real from the msm and what you believe to be fake.
For me, I disregard everything I hear about Epstein and couldn’t care about this dude one iota. Why? Because you and I will never ever get to know the truth behind the name and whether or not anything from this drip drip leak even smacks of truth. It’s a fool’s errand. A distraction. The fact that, say, reddit is tacitly trying to tie Trump to Epstein in posting pic after pic, is building and reinforcing subconsciously that something is dark and sinister in the pairing. I couldn’t care less. And it is not because I have rosy-colored glasses for my man Trump.
Meanwhile, the Flynn situation and Obamagate has oodles more interest. And coincidentally, why is it that anytime the Flynn stuff makes waves, up pops the Epstein crap, which we will never ever get to the bottom to. It is such a useful diversion and it is so straight out of their playbook: just enough to whet the appetite. French Cuisine in nine small courses while never does one do the trick.
…
But I don’t care jr. I don’t hang my hat on the Trump phenomenon, anyway. As a Christian, I have to bear witness regardless, in good times and bad. The sad thing will be watching our children suffer in the years to come.
Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jul 11 2020 18:40 utc | 120
@ian2 117 , the number is higher, closer to half a million over a decade. It appears that the type of polio vaccine used in India increases the risk of polio-like paralysis, which may mean it causes polio but it is classified as something else , a ‘non polio paralysis'(direct link to study). I hesitate to base my judgement on that. Large scale vaccinations may have costs in human lives which in absolute terms are large but about which a consensus exists that they are acceptable when compared to alternatives. And there may be miscalculations, errors which one refuses to admit and so on.
Once the organization starts to change the structure of health systems because it believes much more in markets and technology then I become alarmed.
Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Jul 11 2020 18:50 utc | 121
The stage is almost set for Ghislaine Maxwell’s exit from public life.
Posted by: krypton | Jul 11 2020 19:26 utc | 122
Is it so sure that Ghislaine Maxwell is going the way of Epstein? I encountered a fleeting comment about the possibility she might have a way out – forgot where – and realized I don’t know.
Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Jul 11 2020 20:12 utc | 123
What is this about: https://www.newsweek.com/judge-rules-virginia-giuffres-lawyers-must-destroy-jeffrey-epstein-files-1514909 . Dershowitz makes it appear as he wants the files preserved but the judge wants them destroyed. That means it could well be the opposite.
Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Jul 11 2020 20:23 utc | 124
The Dershowitz complaint stems from a defamation lawsuit that Guiffre had brought against Ghislaine Maxwell which was settled out-of-court in May 2017. Part of the settlement agreement was for the evidence in the case, including Maxwell’s recorded testimony, be sealed forever. It appears Guiffre’s lawyers wanted to use information in that sealed evidence in the new case between Dershowitz and Guiffre. Judge Loretta Preska would have none of it.
Posted by: krypton | Jul 12 2020 1:18 utc | 125