Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 17, 2020

Georgia's Gov. Kemp Faked The Numbers, Fights Mask Mandates And Hurts Its Economy

Yesterday I asked about Georgia's governor Brian Kemp:

What does Kemp think will happen in Georgia? Does he wish for more deaths in his state? Is it malice that is driving him? If not malice what is it?

The question is still open and there is now more data to find an answer.

Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp Sues Atlanta to Block City From Enforcing Its Mask Mandate

Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp is suing Atlanta to block the city from enforcing its mandate to wear a mask in public and other rules related to the COVID-19 pandemic.

Kemp and Georgia Attorney General Chris Carr, in a suit filed in state court late Thursday in Atlanta, argue that Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms has overstepped her authority and must obey Kemp’s executive orders under state law.

“Governor Kemp must be allowed, as the chief executive of this state, to manage the public health emergency without Mayor Bottoms issuing void and unenforceable orders which only serve to confuse the public,” the lawsuit states.

Kemp on Wednesday clarified his executive orders to expressly block Atlanta and at least 14 other local governments across the state from requiring people to wear face coverings.

This is irresponsible. It is not Atlanta Mayor Lance Bottoms who is confusing the public. It is Kemp who is doing it. We do not just ask people to put on seat belts, we mandate it.

It was also Kemp who decided to put out fake numbers:

Georgia Massaged Virus Data to Reopen, Then Voided Mask Orders

Among the last U.S. states to lock down, Georgia in April was first to widely reopen, after just three weeks. Critics said the state misrepresented its data to justify the move, and they predicted disaster.
...
[T]he same week Kemp ordered the reopening, his administration began presenting data in a way that made the state appear healthier than it was, said Thomas Tsai, a professor at Harvard University’s T.H. Chan School of Public Health.

The technique involved backdating new cases to the time of first symptoms or taking a test, instead of reporting them as they were reported to the state, like Georgia had previously done -- and like most states do.
...
The effect -- as states were being told to predicate their reopenings on two weeks of declining case numbers -- was to artificially make Georgia’s trends look better. The state began adding new cases to past dates on its trend line, making current numbers both too low and incomplete, Tsai said.

“What’s deceptive is that they shave off the most recent two weeks,” he said. “If you look at the most recent two weeks, it’s always very low. It always looks artificially like a downward trend.”

Looking again at Georgia's data we can tell the moment Georgia did this.


Source: COVID Tracking Project - bigger

Around the beginning of June the new case numbers suddenly went to zero while a hump was added to the earlier data. The trick helped Kemp to reopen the state.

But the virus can not be tricked by fake accounting. Without sufficient countermeasures the epidemic will accelerate, more people will die from it no matter how many times Kemp massages the data.

A leaked White House document lists Georgia as one of the 18 states which are in a coronavirus "red zone" and should take serious measures to stop a further rise:

A document prepared for the White House Coronavirus Task Force but not publicized suggests more than a dozen states should revert to more stringent protective measures, limiting social gatherings to 10 people or fewer, closing bars and gyms and asking residents to wear masks at all times.

The document, dated July 14 and obtained by the Center for Public Integrity, says 18 states are in the “red zone” for COVID-19 cases, meaning they had more than 100 new cases per 100,000 population last week. Eleven states are in the “red zone” for test positivity, meaning more than 10 percent of diagnostic test results came back positive.


Source: Public Integrity - bigger

Kemp, some of the other governors, and Trump do not understand that it is not the virus that is now hurting the economy. The economic damage that is occurring now in Georgia and elsewhere is caused be the lack of countermeasures which are needed to be able to live with the virus while it continues to circulate.

We are still a year or so away from a good vaccine that can be produced in sufficient numbers. Until at least half of the population is somehow immunized against it we will have to live with it without allowing it to spread freely. Masks are the easiest and cheapest way to stop the virus from jumping from person to person.

The experts in the latest Grand Round video of the UCSF explain why that is the case. They also add a point that should reinforces the message. There are signs that countries with mask mandates had on average less serious cases. The reason is that the dose matters. We know from other viruses that an infection with a high dose of viruses will create more damage than one with a low dose. Masks may not stop all infections but the help to keep the virus dosage low.

Under the current circumstances wearing a mask, even a not perfect one, is the best thing one can do for ones health AND for the economy. It is high time for Kemp to learn that.

Posted by b on July 17, 2020 at 18:26 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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I really must say that I do not undrstand why the mask wearing is such a problem for USAians. I can see how the way one opens or closes the economy can be an issue since it actually affects people's livelyhoods. So I would expect a debate there, but masks and a certain amount of social distancing really does not affect anyone negatively.

It is simply applying the precautionary principle, and when done properly can lead to much of the economy remaining open since fewer Covid 19 cases would be likely to occur. This would keep more people working, and shopowners earning money to pay rents, etc. Doing this while protecting the most vulnerable, usually retirees who are not working, shouldn't be such an issue.

If you want to avoid extreme lockdowns and spikes in Covid cases, you do the little things that can make a difference, especially when they are so very simple and painless, physically and eonomically.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Jul 17 2020 18:51 utc | 1

My wife's from Georgia, so we follow events there very closely since she has kin there. Kemp is trying to force his version of federalism onto his state which is likely unconstitutional and is completely at odds with the usual GOP state's rights/local control is best mantra. In our opinion, Kemp is worse than the virus and must be quarantined to safeguard all Georgians. Do note how it's the Sun Belt states that are now getting hammered, and they (Republicans) said the Summer heat would master the virus whereas the opposite's occurred.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 17 2020 18:55 utc | 2

Blue Dotterel @1--

You highlight a very important bit of intellect that's missing from far too many Americans including many of those in power--Common Sense.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 17 2020 18:59 utc | 3

I lived in Georgia for about two years. We were in a smaller town north of Atlanta.

The first day we moved there one of our neighbors asked us with piqued interest if we had "been to the Super Walmart yet?" That was the big excitement in the town.

I met a lot of intelligent people in Georgia, but there was always an overwhelming pressure on society there to be religious and respect the authority of old white men. A concept like wearing a face covering in public for any reason would gain great pushback from most of the population for many reasons; Islamophobia, fear of not being able to catch a criminal if their identity is concealed, even the fear of disrespecting your own religion by not allowing your faith and prayer to be the only mask you need are all ideas you will likely hear from people like Kemp.

Hopefully the citizens at large will wear masks anyway, but this Kemp figure seems likely to prosecute mask-wearers at this rate. Scary stuff. Don't move to Georgia.

Posted by: Rutherford82 | Jul 17 2020 19:04 utc | 4

Until at least half of the population is somehow immunized against it we will have to live with it without allowing it to spread freely. Masks are the easiest and cheapest way to stop the virus from jumping from person to person.

Contact tracing and HCQ would also help. AFIK USA still doesn't do contact tracing like it should. And the hatched job on HCQ so as to favor Big Pharma - especially remdisivir - constitutes criminal malfeasance IMO.

Twitter user Gummi Bear has conducted a 'deep dive' into virtually everything we know about HCQ. His conclusions:

  • HCQ Studies are overwhelmingly positive;
  • Negative studies get lots of attention but have some serious flaws;
  • Country data offers some convincing arguments;
  • Need to wait for RCTs to be proven.

  • !!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 17 2020 19:19 utc | 5

This analysis takes us absolutely no where until we review what the worst case scenario is.
In the meantime an Oxford team that was highly thought of (before Neil Ferguson got a load of stuff wrong and the media only reported one side of the story) has come out with 20% sufficient for herd immunity.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-herd-immunity-second-wave-oxford-study-boris-johnson-a9623791.html

A smart policy would just be to get to herd immunity as fast as possible and let hospitals and doctors get back to saving lives the normal way.
In my view masks delay economic and health service recovery and are an extremely dangerous public policy.

(b, I'd love it if you got around to trying to prove me wrong, but you keep ducking the big questions on this. Please return to subjects where you are adding value).

Posted by: Michael Droy | Jul 17 2020 19:24 utc | 6

Every state South of 37 N lat. plus UT, NV has more than the US average of new cases per day. All NE states (above 37 N lat. and E of the Ohio River plus CO, HI, AK, MI) are below half the average, and all states in the NE of the NE (VT, NH, ME plus HI) are below ten percent.

I’m in ME (dealing every day with official corruption) where it is hard to see any endemic virtue. When I left FL end of April (dealing with official corruption there) it had the same rate as ME, but now has about 45 times the cases of ME. Fools angrily refused to wear masks in both states.

Posted by: Sam F | Jul 17 2020 19:26 utc | 7

Fun facts:

- US Center for Disease Control (CDC) is based in Atlanta

- Atlanta Mayor Bottoms is rumored to be a contender as Biden's VP

- Martin Luther King lived in Atlanta and Atlanta is still considered a center of the US Civil Rights Movement

- Black and brown minorities are much more likely to die from Covid-19 than Whites. 30% of Georgia's population is black. That is about twice the national average.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 17 2020 19:29 utc | 8

Deaths related to SARS in Ontario in 2003 were approximately the same number as COVID

This is a conspiracy, my friends.

A conspiracy that was derived from the Strong/Soros Agenda 21 manifesto, upgraded to Agenda 2030 by the UN, and Canadians have a "leader", who is doing everything he can to sell us out, using a fake "pandemic" as his justification.

Shame, shame, shame on all of you for drinking the Koolaid.

Posted by: Jose | Jul 17 2020 19:30 utc | 9

thanks b... usa has an interesting combo if ''sue your ass off' -legal attitude' combined with hanky panky or completely deceitful accounting practices - enron, arthur anderson, aig and etc. etc.... funny how it is showing up here in your example... frankly, none of it helps and is more confirmation of a failed state as it presently stands...

@ 6 michael droy - any proof on the herd immunity concept?? you probably missed this post on the previous thread.. -
"Michael Droy @7

Why can't you (and the likes of you) first get ground level information that is at the fingertips of every 7-year-old before you post insanities?

I am 75 and have concomitant heart disease and slight diabetes, like many of this same age. Combined, they drive the risk of dying of a coronavirus 19 infection, if I catch it, around 25%. Meaning one in four.

So I cannot keep cool and suave when you guys continue to bombard the likes of you, i.e. the clueless, with noxious nonsense because it leads to unsafe practices, which drive the infection rate up, which increase my risk of kicking the bucket because of a goddam idiot who can't be bothered to inform himself and think.

Posted by: Piero Colombo | Jul 17 2020 4:57 utc | 107"

Posted by: james | Jul 17 2020 19:31 utc | 10

@8 jackrabbit... thanks for pointing out all that, some of which i was tempted to also mention..

Posted by: james | Jul 17 2020 19:32 utc | 11

@ 6 michael droy -
There is no herd immunity. Antibodies disappear. Read the medical literature if you can, rather than regurgitating (a medical term for vomiting) lame stream media talking points.

Posted by: ISL | Jul 17 2020 19:37 utc | 12

Michael Droy @Jul17 19:24 #6

A smart policy would just be to get to herd immunity as fast as possible and let hospitals and doctors get back to saving lives the normal way.

Hurd immunity means lots of people die unnecessarily.

Hurd immunity represents government's wilful failure: other countries are fighting the pandemic with much fewer cases of Covid-19 and much fewer deaths.

Hurd immunity protects the wealthy more than at-risk groups.

Hurd immunity means fat profits for Big Pharma.

Hurd immunity allows this new virus more opportunity to mutate.

Hurd immunity may not even be possible if immunity wears off in a matter of months.

Those who advocate for herd immunity focus only on deaths and not on the terrible toll the virus takes on those who survive: long-term lung damage; chronic fatigue syndrome; and more.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 17 2020 19:42 utc | 13

I think one can write of the hopes for a vaccine. First of all a vaccine takes years to develop. The problem is not so much the research itself but the thorough testing to make sure that it is safe tu use. I don`t see how one can shortcut this. And secondly coronaviruses mutate quite quickly.

Posted by: m | Jul 17 2020 19:52 utc | 14

@8 Jackrabbit

Excellent points, but as far as Bottoms being a VP candidate to Biden...

Wouldn't an uncontrolled outbreak and a higher death rate in Republican states help Biden rather than hurt him?

Please consider that the wealthy donor class may all prefer Biden this election cycle. Or else, why wouldn't Republicans push to replace Trump against a very beatable Biden.

No, Kemp is only going to hurt Republican politics with his actions, but it will likely only affect Trump at the ballot box and possibly Kemp himself depending on how well-rigged Georgia elections are.

Posted by: Rutherford82 | Jul 17 2020 19:55 utc | 15

I just went and did some errands around Corvallis, OR on my bike and will continue to report a reduction in mask wearing over 2 weeks ago. I don't understand it but this is not Portland.

At a minimum the elite and their puppets are taking advantage of this crisis to further many aligned agendas. Throwing America under the bus as I predicted is moving along swimingly but can the elite save global private finance when the music stops? What will happen to the floodgates of debt once the momentum grows in this crisis?

Are there any adults in Georgia that can cut through the political agendas and try and save lives? This would just be an interesting soap opera if so many lives were not truly at stake.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 17 2020 20:01 utc | 16

There are no honest numbers or clean numbers and there will not be. Here in Cook County entirely impossible to get accurate or consistent daily stats because the County Public Health Department is split into six separate competing not cooperating petty jurisdictions. With all the goodwill in the world they just could not produce numbers that would bear examination.

The Surgisearch scandal is also local. Palatine, Illinois. Stats created to order from thin air by an MD, a science fiction writer, a hooker. Good enough for publication in NEJM and Lancet. That those two pubs later do a retraction does not undo the damage. Countless other data sets fabricated for publication from same shop.

It’s a game that goes on and on. Every corner of this is politicized and monetized. Above Florida’s numbers are cited but we know Florida test labs are returning positivity rates of 100%. Those numbers can be revised. There is no reason to believe the revision.

This country is corrupt top to bottom. Don’t expect to make any sense of the puzzle. It does not matter here what your politics are. It doesn’t matter what your agenda is. There is no solid data anywhere. All corrupted.

Posted by: oldhippie | Jul 17 2020 20:03 utc | 17

Surprised to still see HCQ being promoted. If HCQ is being held back only so that nefarious pill manufacturers can have us take more expensive drugs, why aren't countries without significantly large pharmaceutical rentiers, such as Cuba, prescribing it to people?

The answer is: it doesn't work, and the studies suggesting it does work are either not properly designed or can not be replicated. Cuba, for their part, have focused on antivirals like the homegrown interferon-Alfa 2b as treatment.

Other countries have shown that lockdowns, universal mask-wearing policies, and eventually contract tracing and targeted quarantines can eliminate the virus. It worked for New Zealand, it worked for Vietnam, it's working for Cuba. The difference is, these countries didn't surrender to what they perceived to be economic imperatives that override concerns for human well-being. These countries have governments that can snap into action and direct resources to where they need to be in response to changing environmental conditions.

It's ironic, especially, because Marxist-Leninist single party states like Cuba and Vietnam are often regarded as being not resilient, or as being sclerotic, but it's precisely societies in which markets and commerce take overriding precedence for leaders that the coronavirus has done the most damage, and will in the end do the most lasting damage to. Market fundamentalism, or capitalist realism, is an ideology with a death toll that rises every day.

Posted by: fnord | Jul 17 2020 20:09 utc | 18

So much for China cooking covid 19 numbers. Shoe's on the other foot yo! How'd you like them apples?

But of course no newswire is going to care because 'murica!

Posted by: A. L. | Jul 17 2020 20:09 utc | 19

I see no reason to wear masks while in the open air in uncrowded spaces. If you never get closer than 10 feet from anyone and it's open air, there's little benefit to masks. But inside stores, etc. I'm all for it and always wear them. I used to scoff at the Asians I'd see in airports wearing masks, but now I get it and even when Covid 19 fades away, I'll still wear them on aircraft, etc.

Posted by: A. Pols | Jul 17 2020 20:16 utc | 20

I think the chance of a safe and working vaccine is slim to none in a time scale that matters. Or ever.

This is going to be beaten by large scale, accessible, cheap testing and effective early treatment regimes.

We are not catching and managing the asymptomatic carriers.

People are just going to keep spreading it and dying if we keep focusing on only medically intervening when people are ill enough to admit themselves.

Posted by: A. L. | Jul 17 2020 20:18 utc | 21

What does one expect from Dixie, which Georgia is a major part of.

Back in the 1950/60s many there in Dixie, including elected officials and [white] "upstanding" members of the communities, proclaimed that efforts to allow black people to register to vote and/or be housed in a neighborhood (or hotel if traveling) of their choice and capacity to afford was a Masonic-Jewish-Catholic plot.

True to form much of Dixie is treating the conronavirus as an invented plot by various "powers".

Posted by: Jay | Jul 17 2020 20:22 utc | 22


There are two writers who help explain the Kemp response imo. One is Greg Palast — see. https://scheerpost.com/2020/07/08/how-trump-stole-2020-the-hunt-for-americas-vanished-voters/“> the hunt for vanished voters


and the Martens:

“If Trump allowed the federal government to become the hero in saving the American people from the ravages of COVID-19, he would be undermining decades of Koch money infused into politics and the economics departments of colleges and universities across America to brainwash the public that big government is evil and only the corporations can save us.

“So this is what Trump did: he refused to formally invoke the Defense Production Act but allowed all of the wonderful Hank Reardens in corporate America to voluntarily manufacture masks and ventilators.

“Trump refused to issue a federal order for mask wearing because that is a federal regulation and he was put in the Oval Office to gut federal regulations, not impose more.

“Even after a study by Victor Chernozhukov of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Hiroyuki Kasahara and Paul Schrimpf of the University of British Columbia’s Vancouver School of Economics found that 40,000 lives could have been saved in a two-month period if there had been a federal mandate for employees working in public-facing businesses to wear masks, and the policy had been strictly obeyed, Trump issued no federal order on masks.”


https://wallstreetonparade.com/2020/07/heres-what-everyone-including-mary-trump-gets-wrong-about-donald-trumps-failed-response-to-covid-19/“> Here’s What Everyone Gets Wrong About Trump’s Response to Covid


I followed the link formula. Hope it works and does’t mess up the page. Been having trouble with this. Advice welcome.

Posted by: suzan | Jul 17 2020 20:25 utc | 23

It would be really helpful if Governor Kemp- who also specialises in preventing poor people from voting- were to use his position of authority to host an international conference of those who, like Michael Droy, understand that Covid poses no danger to people.
Plenty of seminars and long hours of debate inside an air conditioned building could lead to enormous social gains.
Masks would, of course, be banned, as would be handwashing while, in order to enhance the spirit of comradeship and good fellowship, physical contact of every kind, between participants would be encouraged.
The opening of the Conference ought to include personal introductions to Governor Kemp with handshaking and kisses for those who prefer the Gallic custom.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 17 2020 20:32 utc | 24

What Mendeleev's table would look like if PI were 3.

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Jul 17 2020 20:48 utc | 25

Trump made it clear from the outset that he wanted to see the numbers tweaked to make him look better, the good Governor is just being an obedient servant...

Posted by: ralphieboy | Jul 17 2020 21:47 utc | 26

Georgia and Repugs?
Please, have you ever spent time there?
(I like Atlanta- worked there for while)

Posted by: Duncan Idaho | Jul 17 2020 22:26 utc | 28

Thanx lone plateau. I've not been able to get the a href formula to work. Cheers.

Posted by: suzan | Jul 17 2020 22:32 utc | 29

Agree with Michael - no use wearing a mask just walking down an uncrowded street or (God forbid) in the beach!!

I feel sorry for the workers who are mandated to wear them all day seeing their eyes darkened by extended co2 re-breathing.

Building immunity requires commitment and consistency but it's far superior to wearing a mask everywhere - even if it means choking down some gross apple cider vinegar every damn day!

Posted by: Nick | Jul 17 2020 22:36 utc | 30

"We do not just ask people to put on seat belts, we mandate it."

Not a great example in one way: someone not wearing their seat belt does not make me more unsafe; someone not wearing their mask indoor potentially does.

But in another way it is actually a very good example of government overreach: there is really no justifiable reason to require seat belt wearing in a limited government. Like drugs laws, vice laws, and all manner of other unnecessary laws, seat belt laws are government intrusion in what should be people's private decisions. These laws should be anathema to a free people; but then again we are not a free people, are we?

Government can mandate mask wearing on its own premises: schools, courts, other government buildings. Anywhere else, it should be up to the owner of the house or business what the rules are inside. And outside, in the open air, no one has a right to tell you what to wear.

Posted by: Caliman | Jul 17 2020 23:15 utc | 31

how about a condom caliman? better example?

Posted by: james | Jul 17 2020 23:21 utc | 32

#1:

"I really must say that I do not understand why the mask wearing is such a problem for USAians."

I wear my mask indoors all the time. And I don't go to places where they don't insist on good mask wearing practice.

But I also disagree with mandatory rules; for USAians like me, outside of its own premises, govt has no business or right telling me what to wear.

We have a constitutional, federal, and limited government here in the US and we used to like it that way, despite its occasional inconveniences and tragedies. Fans of unlimited government can look to live elsewhere.

Posted by: Caliman | Jul 17 2020 23:22 utc | 33

#33:

"how about a condom caliman? better example?"

An excellent example ... and no, we don't have any laws for mandatory condom wearing either. Now, if one is intelligent, prudent, and enjoys multiple sex partners, then I think one would be a fool not to use condoms. But the crucial thing is it's you and your partner's choice!

Posted by: Caliman | Jul 17 2020 23:25 utc | 34

suzan.. thanks for those links btw...

i dunno... why have any rules or guidelines for anything?? forget about seat belts and who says you have to drive on the right or left side of the road?? civil liberties ya know... who cares about others?? why bother?? no wonder the usa is going to hell so quickly... the ayn randian bullshite is very thick ....

Posted by: james | Jul 17 2020 23:26 utc | 35

this less gov't concept was designed for whack jobs and predators.. of course the predators will profit off the whack jobs.. it is how it works... why have any rules?? why bother?? just get rid of all gov't - and it starts looking like what you have going on in the usa - a loony bin essentially....

Posted by: james | Jul 17 2020 23:29 utc | 36

More excellent examples of what I wrote @3--the total lack of common sense. It's quite appalling but then the electorate elevated not one but two TV lackies to the office of president and somehow thought they'd govern well and solve problems when it was evident the opposite would occur. It seems logic is a cork being painfully twisted from the minds of so many to be removed and never reinserted.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 17 2020 23:36 utc | 37

It is sad to see so many so willing to endlessly empower government overreach under these endless and constant crisis situations. Terrorism, war, crime, now pandemic ... instead of self-reliant women and men, doing the right thing ourselves because it is the right thing to do, it's "oh, please save me from my neighbor!"

As Frank Herbert said in Dune: Fear is the mindkiller. Fear drives people to regulation, to violence, and to war. I really would have thought better of this site's viewers.

The sad/funny thing is that the fearful and furious look at liberty seekers as the crazy ones. In an insane world ...

Posted by: Caliman | Jul 17 2020 23:43 utc | 38

If Atlanta Mayor Bottoms decides to grow a spine, she might re-open the investigation into Timothy Cunningham's death (an African-American epidemiologist):

CDC Epidemiologist Found Dead Weeks After Going Missing, Drowning Suspected

Timothy Cunningham, a 35-year-old epidemiologist at the Centers For Disease Control and Prevention, vanished after leaving work Feb. 12, complaining he felt unwell; some seven weeks later, his decomposed body was spotted by fishermen in a rugged area along the banks of the Atlanta area's Chattahoochee River, according to officials.

Gorniak added that the condition of Cunningham's body is "consistent" with having been in the water since the day he went missing and that there were no signs of trauma or underlying medical conditions.

... And yet many questions remain unanswered.

Police do not know, for example, how Cunningham's body got onto the banks of the river.

The area — not far from Cunningham's home — was inaccessible by walking, police said, noting they struggled to find a place to launch a boat to reach his remains.


Everyone likes a quick jump in the river when not feeling well, right? Especially Harvard-educated epidemiologists.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 17 2020 23:44 utc | 39

fnord | Jul 17 2020 20:09 utc | 18

" It worked for New Zealand..." - proof that mandatory wearing of masks are not required.

NZ achieved their result by implementing a hard lockdown - level 4 very early on.
Australia achieved a similar result with level 3 lockdown & no mandatory mask wearing.

Which brings us to this.....
Blue Dotterel | Jul 17 2020 18:51 utc | 1

"I really must say that I do not understand why the mask wearing is such a problem for USAians."

Because Americans lack the discipline, intelligence & any sense of community responsibility. A fractured, divided country with little chance of being put back together.
Like everything in America, mask wearing has become highly politicized, something that has been deliberately stoked by the MSM.

In NZ & Australia wearing a mask is not a political issue..
Americans are incapable of doing what the Kiwis or Aussies did.

Posted by: ted01 | Jul 17 2020 23:52 utc | 40

james, Caliman

Nah, a better example is speed limits. Why do we have them? Most people will drive at a safe speed. The few that want to go really, really fast are a hazard to the themselves and others on the road.

<> <> <> <> <>

IMO the libertarian fury around masks is astroturfed by Republican partisans and Big Pharma. We don't see the libertarians flooding blogs with complaints about money laundering laws, speed limits, the draft (still possible if there's a war), dress codes (try flying naked - ain't gonna happen), bank bailouts, etc.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 17 2020 23:57 utc | 41

I think JOSE in #9 got it right. "This is a conspiracy my friends .. "

The state of the art N-95 respirator was designed for a large tuberculosis bacteria 0.30 micron, no more. CO -19 virus is 0.06-0.14 microns. no masks exist for the CO-19 virus.

Why is no one writing about this ?

Posted by: Frar Ockham | Jul 18 2020 0:01 utc | 42

"Nah, a better example is speed limits."

The public roadways are owned by the government. That is the only reason that government has the right and in fact the responsibility to set a safe speed limit, mandate certain lights and other warning devices, etc..

There are no speed limits on private roads.

Posted by: Caliman | Jul 18 2020 0:05 utc | 43

caliman - read the links that lone plateau shared from suzan.... the more go'vt concept is off the charts completely bonkers... fear can produce the exact opposite of what you suggest as well, but i like to think you are capable of seeing that, although you only presented one side of it.. fear of more gov't being a major straw man the usa political system has put up on such a high pedestal and which, lolol - some people appear to..... fear! that and the endless mantra about less taxes.... i live in canada... i don't share these fixations that many, but not all, americans have seemed to swallowed without question..

Posted by: james | Jul 18 2020 0:12 utc | 44

Caliman @Jul18 0:05 #44

Public health is also "owned by the government". As is commerce - from business licensing, to regulation, to interstate commerce.

As is national defense. Where's the furious complaining about draft laws that remain on the books? Where's the furious bitching about expensive weapons systems like F-35, nukes, and weaponizing space?

How DARE the government make it illegal to yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theatre!

<> <> <> <> <> <>

Astroturfed bitching by pretend libertarians is simply annoying trolling. They pretend that governments overrule commensense. I run without a mask in morning and nobody cares or stops me. The few runners I see do the same. But if I go to a store, I wear a mask.

It's not complicated. It's not a mystery. It's not a government take-over. It's just commonsense: wear a mask to protect others and expect them to do the same.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 18 2020 0:32 utc | 45

@Frar Ockham, Jul 18, 0:01

no masks exist for the CO-19 virus.

Exactly. As Dr Vernon Coleman described it, wearing a mask to stop the virus is like using chickenwire to stop a fly.

Posted by: cirsium | Jul 18 2020 0:32 utc | 46

When you have a system where 50 Governors run 50 Public Health departments, how can you be surprised that some are total screwups? 50 megalomaniacs exercising "states rights"?
Masks are mostly to protect others when you are sick. Since most of the infected have mild or no symptoms, what is the harm in wearing masks? You would think the states would provide them if important. Scientists now say SARS-COV-2, in addition to be sneezed or coughed out in droplets, can also float about in the air and travel across rooms and subway trains, so the question is how much inoculum does it take for a productive infection? The Saudis claim their infections correlate with airconditioning and recirculated air. Japan follows their three C's: avoiding crowds, closed spaces, and close contact with others. The US refuses to quarantine the infected and the EXPOSED, first rule of public health with a contagion.
Better hope your T lymphocytes are primed and ready, since they seem more important in covid-19 than antibodies.

Posted by: michael888 | Jul 18 2020 0:33 utc | 47

Posted by: Michael Droy | Jul 17 2020 19:24 utc | 6 20% sufficient for herd immunity.

This is contrary to every other epidemiologist I'm aware of and the history of pandemics and viruses. Every other study indicates at least 70% of the population must be exposed, and for highly contagious diseases up to 90-95%, and in the case of COVID-19 70% would result in an unacceptable level of deaths. The Oxford Vaccine Group said in 2016 that for very contagious diseases like mumps, an estimated 90-95% of the population would have to be exposed, absent a vaccine.

Cherry-picking studies is not the way to address the pandemic.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 18 2020 0:34 utc | 48

Frar Ockham @Jul18 0:01 #43

no masks exist for the CO-19 virus.

You're dumbfuckery is legendary so I'm not surprised to see this comment from you.

I have no doubt you know that what you say is nonsense.

The virus is spread by droplets that are bigger than the virus itself. Most of these droplets can be stopped by a mask.

Now f*ck-off.

!!


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 18 2020 0:37 utc | 49

#45 - James:

I agree: fear can and has driven the other side (ostensibly pro-liberty but actually mostly just conservative and old) mad as well. Gun sales are through the roof, across the country, even here in California. Constant exaggeration on both sides does not help anyone. Every disagreement becomes a battle to the death, black and white rather than shades of gray, righteousness versus evil.

I long for a time when politics becomes mostly irrelevant ... when it almost does not matter who is president because it simply does not affect your daily life. But what is happening now is politics are irrelevant because we have no say AND our lives are heavily and increasingly controlled by govt mandates.

Posted by: Caliman | Jul 18 2020 0:37 utc | 50

Jackrabbit

There's a heap of bitching about wearing masks that are for their own good, but these clowns don't think to bitch about the massive wealth transfer that took place under cover of covid19.
For those at the top in the US, those wealth transfers are like taking candy from a baby while the dumfuck peasants are busy pulling down statures and refusing to wear masks and thinking they're attacking the 'system'

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 18 2020 0:39 utc | 51

michael888 @Jul18 0:33 #49

When you have a system where 50 Governors run 50 Public Health departments ...

Correction: When you have a system that is run by and for the power-elite ...

Stop pulling punches.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 18 2020 0:41 utc | 52

@ 52 caliman.... thanks.... as it stands - all of covid has become extremely politicized - masks and etc.. every aspect of it.. i too would like to see a less polarized atmosphere too.. not sure how we get there! one step at a time...

Posted by: james | Jul 18 2020 0:45 utc | 53

Peter AU1 @Jul18 0:39 #53

... these clowns don't think to bitch about the massive wealth transfer ...

They're not paid to think. Or to act in their own best interest.

They are truly pathetic.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 18 2020 0:47 utc | 54

One of the biggest blowhards in my town owns a bar restaurant where for years he has posted signs saying: 'No Shoes or No Shirt, NO SERVICE'. Yet he was whining like a baby this morning when the grocery store wouldn't let him in without a mask. He turned belligerent on the poor teenage bag boy/stock clerk that was at the door wiping down grocery cart handles with clorox. Took several customers to get him out of there. He went out screaming four letter curses to every man, woman, and child in the parking lot.

Posted by: mike | Jul 18 2020 0:47 utc | 55

"Where's the furious complaining about draft laws that remain on the books? Where's the furious bitching about expensive weapons systems like F-35, nukes, and weaponizing space?"

You must not frequent many actual libertarian sites, hmmm? Try Antiwar.com ... they have everything you are looking for.

Glad to hear you wear masks when you go shopping; so do I, as I said above. The issue is MANDATORY mask wearing, soon to be followed by mandatory vaccining and registration.

A mature and democratic society (like, say, Sweden) relies on the citizens themselves to basically do the right thing, which people do most of the time.

Posted by: Caliman | Jul 18 2020 0:47 utc | 56

Posted by: A. Pols | Jul 17 2020 20:16 utc | 20 If you never get closer than 10 feet from anyone and it's open air, there's little benefit to masks. But inside stores, etc. I'm all for it and always wear them.

The problem with that approach is you are with some frequency putting on and removing the mask - which leads to increased risk of contamination, due to your hands contacting the mask.

I wear food service plastic gloves when out of my room and a mask. I avoid touching the mask when out. If my nose runs due to the temperature inside the mask, I carry a small bottle of hand sanitizer. You put sanitizer on the gloves to deal with any contamination, slip the mask down, deal with the issue, then re-adjust the mask. Otherwise, I keep it on all the time I'm out.

This procedure is what people who have to wear a mask all the time - medical workers, essential service workers, etc. - do, if they don't have sufficient supplies of disposable masks. The goal is to minimize hand contact with the mask and any other contaminated surface and thus minimize transmission to the vulnerable parts of the body by the hands.

You are correct that generally speaking open air is not much of a risk. It is possible for viral particles to be blown long distances and remain aloft for some time. But the probability is that you won't be infected in open air with wind movement except by sheer bad luck. As I've said before, it's a probabilities game. Any little bit one can do to decrease the probability of infection is worth doing if it's practical.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 18 2020 0:48 utc | 57

Caliman @Jul18 0:47 @58

I agree with you about any sort of mandatory vaccination.

The government is not going to get me to take a vaccination that is necessitated only because they refused to fight the pandemic. That doesn't pass the smell test.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 18 2020 0:50 utc | 58

Caliman 44

"Privatization of toll roads is a growing trend. During 2007, sixteen states had some privatized road project formally proposed or underway. In the last two years Indiana and Chicago signed multi-billiondollar private concession deals for public roads for 75 years and 99 years respectively. As a result of these deals, toll rates on these roads will increase steadily and revenues will be paid to private company shareholders rather than to the public budget."
https://uspirg.org/reports/usp/road-privatization

I guess there's no speed limits on these private roads in the US?
I believe there's a few private roads in Australia now but they all have speed limits.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 18 2020 0:57 utc | 59

Posted by: suzan | Jul 17 2020 22:32 utc | 30 I've not been able to get the a href formula to work.

Having bollocks up links before, my advice is to follow the Text formula *precisely*.

That means proof-reading the link carefully for the opening equal sign and quote before the link, and the end quote and angle bracket after the link. And also verifying the looks exactly like that and that the HREF is spelled correctly. It's ridiculously easy to screw up any of that if one does it too fast.

Believe me, any rush to use that HTML code without proof-reading will lead to failure. I've done it many times. The same with

and
- mis-spell those and they don't work right.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 18 2020 0:57 utc | 60

Hah! See? I used BLOCKQUOTE and end BLOCKQUOTE and forgot that they won't show! This is how one screws up when posting! LOL

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 18 2020 0:58 utc | 61

Caliman @Jul18 0:47 #58

Try Antiwar.com ... they have everything you are looking for.

I've been to antiwar.com many times. I very much sympathize with that POV.

What is strange the barrage of anti-mask comments on every post that b makes about the pandemic. I don't see the same effusive complaining about other libertarian issues on other websites.

But, as I have said several times, I don't think the ferocious response to masks is a libertarian 'thing'. I think it is mostly Trump-supporters and Big Pharma paid trolls that are pretending to be libertarian. And some libertarians might get roped into that.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 18 2020 1:01 utc | 62

Posted by: james | Jul 17 2020 23:29 utc | 37 just get rid of all gov't - and it starts looking like what you have going on in the usa - a loony bin essentially....

I know you ignore my posts, so you can ignore this one, too.

What you describe is actually the other way around. The more government you have, the more loony bin the society becomes.

OTOH, there is a smidgen of truth in your point. As I've said before, given the way humans are, loony bin is all you can expect to achieve, government or no government. At least without a government, you don't have a single source of violence imposing on everyone, supported by people brainwashed into thinking government is "the answer" to their own personal failings in dealing with life.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 18 2020 1:03 utc | 63

Richard Steven Hack

I always have spelling mistakes and typo's so when I use HTML tags, I simply copy and past the ones b has conveniently provided... though at times I still manage to mess it up.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 18 2020 1:04 utc | 64

@ 65 rsh.. i read your posts - not all of them... there are typically way too posts from you, but i scan most everything... well, single source of violence doesn't seem to be a problem in this wonderful example we have of less gov't that the usa demonstrates! it seems violence is coming from countless directions and mostly all i see is violence - either physical or, mental, verbal and etc. etc! so becoming loony doesn't seem to hinge of more or less gov't... i think it has to do with the kindness or compassion we are either capable, or incapable of showing others, regardless the type of gov't that one has... either way the usa seems particularly unhinged at present..

Posted by: james | Jul 18 2020 1:13 utc | 65

I had asked a couple of months ago about the prophylactic benefits of "common cold" coronaviruses in circulation. A new interesting study in Nature says “Common Cold” Coronaviruses Could Help Produce Anti-SARS-CoV-2 Immune Cells:

https://www.technologynetworks.com/immunology/news/common-cold-coronaviruses-could-help-produce-anti-sars-cov-2-immune-cells-337504

What I've been wondering is this: it is becoming quite well established that these common viruses cause immune reactions that are then protective for the novel virus. Why then are we not (or perhaps are we?) investigating purposeful infection by these viruses as a way to immunize the population against COVID19?

In other words, instead of spending months if not years looking for a vaccine to help provide protection, why not use what nature has already provided. This is similar to how cowpox was used to develop limited protection for smallpox, until a reliable smallpox vaccine was developed. Is anyone looking at this?

Posted by: Caliman | Jul 18 2020 1:15 utc | 66

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 18 2020 1:01 utc | 64 But, as I have said several times, I don't think the ferocious response to masks is a libertarian 'thing'. I think it is mostly Trump-supporters and Big Pharma paid trolls that are pretending to be libertarian. And some libertarians might get roped into that.

I agree. "Libertarian" is a very broad definition - it applies to Ayn Rand Objectivist types, left-wing anarchists, right-wing anarchists, individualist anarchists, even "Christian anarchists" (which I despise.) It also applies to people like Ron Paul. There is also a distinction between "big L" Libertarians and "small L" libertarians. A lot of the latter despise the former. As Bob Black once said, "Libertarians are just Republicans who smoke dope."

I started out as a teenager as an Ayn Rand Objectivist. Once exposed to right-wing anarchism, I examined her position on the notion of a "limited state", and realized there was more to philosophy than her take on it. But I was familiar with big and small L libertarianism for many years, which included a lot of anarchism.

That's another point - a lot of people think anarchism means socialism. They forget there is a large American native anarchism which is pro free market, going back to Lysander Spooner in the 1800s. And then of course there is individualist anarchism which has had considerable influence on anarchism over the last century and is opposed to collectivism and socialism (check the Wikipedia entry.)

There's also a huge distinction between people with a consciously developed philosophy - big or small L - and those who just have a grab-bag of opinions. The pandemic deniers fit the latter category (when they aren't paid trolls.)

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 18 2020 1:18 utc | 67

Richard Steven Hack @Jul18 1:03 #65

At least without a government, you don't have a single source of violence ...

My understanding of anarchists is that they are against concentrated power, not government itself.

Unfortunately, "anarchy" is easily depicted by the establishment as chaos, something that frightens most people.

Libertarians are ok with concentrated power. They see it as natural - less powerful simply need to develop coping skills.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 18 2020 1:19 utc | 68

Posted by: Kay Fabe | Jul 18 2020 0:18 utc | 46 t should be on protecting the population most at risk (elderly and sick)

How many FUCKING TIMES do I have to point out that there are over ONE HUNDRED MILLION AMERICANS AT RISK due to underlying comorbidities?

And still this bullshit about "protect the people at risk" comes up in every goddamn thread.

And that doesn't even include the kids at risk for this other disease COVID-19 can cause in them, and the fact that even asymptomatic people exhibit changes in lung function, etc.

Get a fucking clue before posting this BULLSHIT.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 18 2020 1:25 utc | 69

Richard Steven Hack

Without government there is only privatization. You Americans have lived with privatization so long that you think it is a government.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 18 2020 1:33 utc | 70

@Michael Droy | Jul 17 2020 19:24 utc | 6

an Oxford team .... has come out with 20% sufficient for herd immunity.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-herd-immunity-second-wave-oxford-study-boris-johnson-a9623791.html

A smart policy would just be to get to herd immunity as fast as possible and let hospitals and doctors get back to saving lives the normal way.

Herd immunity might be possible against a SINGLE strain of virus. As the virus is mutating constantly, however, a second lethal strain could emerge, making your immunity to the first strain worthless -- and maybe killing you.

Furthermore, the more infected people there are, the more the virus reproduces, and therefore the more chances there are of another lethal strain emerging. Thus an attempt at herd immunity for a huge population -- in the hundreds of millions for the US -- is probably a bad idea.

The 1918 Spanish Flu is an example. The first wave was lethal but rather mild ("just another flu"), but it infected a lot of people. The large number of replicating particles of that virus was probably why a SECOND lethal strain emerged, and that was a killer. The world probably acquired some herd immunity against the first wave, but that didn't protect anyone from the second wave.

In my opinion, you are playing with fire if you try for herd immunity in a large population.

Posted by: Cyril | Jul 18 2020 1:35 utc | 71

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 18 2020 1:19 utc | 70 My understanding of anarchists is that they are against concentrated power, not government itself.

Uh, no.

Anarchism is explicitly against government in any form. You may be confusing anarchists with socialists, some of whom want government to run things, some prefer social organizations to run things. As I said, people tend to confuse anarchists with socialists and communists - right-wingers especially tend to lump them all together as "Commies" or "socialists". I've seen a lot of that recently given Bernie Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez, as well as these discussions about Antifa and BLM. There's very little precision in terminology.

The distinction between anarchists is whether they support collective organizations as the organizers of society or not. Left-wing anarchists support socialism of the form where things like workers councils run things. That makes them socialists or "small C" communists, but they still oppose government. Right-wing anarchists want a free market. Individualist anarchists are usually right-wing, but don't necessarily care about social organization at all. Then there are "chaos anarchists" who are even more dismissive of any social organization.

But it's not always that straight-forward. There are a *lot* of variations of anarchist philosophy, as the link I gave to the Wikipedia entries above show.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 18 2020 1:36 utc | 72

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 18 2020 1:33 utc | 72 Without government there is only privatization.

Depends on what you mean by "privatization." If you mean a completely free market - which doesn't exist anywhere in the world, really not even in black markets - then you would be correct. Of course, that assumes there isn't such a thing as workers councils running things, as the Situationists wanted.

See, there is a lot more to anarchist philosophy than either-or "government" or rampant chaos. That's a simplification.

"You Americans have lived with privatization so long that you think it is a government."

Well, I agree that most people think corporations running the government is not a bad thing, or that governments don't need to rein in corporations, at least on the right-wing side. But I think most Americans don't trust corporations, either.

I happen to believe that corporations are creatures of the state. They exist because of laws allowing them to exist. A "company" is just a group of people working together, in the original sense of the term. A "corporation" is *licensed* by the state to exist and to engage in activities under regulation (however limited the regulation and no matter how much the state is bribed to allow rampant non-regulation.) That makes the corporation intrinsically tied to the state - which in turn allows it to use it economic influence to manipulate the state for its benefit and not the benefit of people outside the corporation.

That's where the problem lies. Get rid of the state, you get rid of corporations. All you have left then is companies - if people want them. Or the people could turn into Situationists and demand workers councils run everything.

As an individualist anarchist, I prefer no one to run anything. But I'd accept workers councils a lot faster than I would a government.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 18 2020 1:45 utc | 73

Speaking of varying anarchist philosophy, that Wikipedia entry I linked to above has a list on the right side of the various schools.

Schools of thought:
Black
Capitalist
Christian
Collectivist
Communist
Egoist
Existentialist
Feminist
Green
Independence
Individualist
Insurrectionary
Jewish
Mutualist
Naturist
Pacifist
Philosophical
Platformist
Post-anarchism
Post-colonial
Post-left
Primitivist
Queer
Social
Syndicalist
Synthesist
...and without adjectives

Bottom line: It ain't all one thing. Dismissing it as such is a mistake.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 18 2020 1:54 utc | 74

Richard Steven Hack

I would liken large corporations to warlords or oligarchs. They may operate as a board of investors or whatever, but under a no government situation they would just hire their own enforcers. Basically the same as they do know now, just that the enforcers are called government.

A government of the people that actually works for the people does occur at different points in history.
Some things are too big to be tackled at community level.

Covid19 is something that concerns you. China as a nation, under its method of governance, was able to operate as a single unit and use the resources of the nation to eradicate the virus. They have had, and will have more small outbreaks but these will be quickly brought under control as the entire nation has the ability to work together for a common cause.

China like current day Russia has strong foundations, but the US has booted its foundations out from beneath itself.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 18 2020 2:01 utc | 75

Thank you, b, for again posting the link to the UCSF series of discussions. This one has no political aspect except for the host's final quote:

"When you mix science and politics, you get politics."

I'm sorry, I didn't catch the name of the person he quoted, but it is an excellent statement in light of what the governor of Georgia has done. I will disagree with some comments and say that it is within the power he has as governor to override a mayor in his state on an issue. The problem being that what he has done is not science based but a political matter. In my state of New Mexico our governor overrode one of the mayors and it was a good thing because that mayor wasn't observing the lockdown earlier in this crisis, so the virus was spreading.

I think the matter is serious enough that it ought to be brought to the State Supreme Court in Georgia. After watching the video from San Francisco it is evident that masks do play such an important role in fighting the virus that it should not be a matter of politics; it should be a matter of science. One important aspect of mask wearing is that it apparently diminishes the intensity of the disease if the wearer still gets infected since anything diminishing the amount of the virus encountered diminishes the intensity of the disease. Would that the governor of Georgia would take the time to watch that video! I hope everyone contributing to this thread will do so.

Posted by: juliania | Jul 18 2020 2:08 utc | 76

The reason Kemp is behaving like a lunatic is because Trump IS a lunatic. He wasn't taken seriously at first, but now that he's deployed his secret militia to Oregon, there can be no more doubt that he's dangerous like his niece Mary says he is. Kemp will assert his manly authority over the black Atlanta mayor, Keisha Bottoms, and he might even put his own brown shirts on the streets to punish any terrorists who resist his authority. Entirely possible.

This pandemic does not command universal respect because the deaths of 140,000 Americans is not enough. Would Kemp be acting this way if there were a more respectable 500,000 covid corpses? The people who enable Trump & Kemp, some right here on this blog, might change their tune if they tripped over a stinking corpse now and then.

Live free and die, Americans!

Posted by: jadan | Jul 18 2020 2:09 utc | 77

@suzan | Jul 17 2020 20:25 utc | 23

The following link should work: Here’s What Everyone, Including Mary Trump, Gets Wrong About Donald Trump’s Failed Response to COVID-19

An interesting speculation that Koch's influence is pervasive in the Trump administration. Koch's advocacy of libertarianism -- that the government does nothing competently -- is apparently why The Donald failed so dismally to use the government's powers against the epidemic.

I'm not sure I agree with this, but it is interesting.

Posted by: Cyril | Jul 18 2020 2:10 utc | 78

"Herd immunity might be possible against a SINGLE strain of virus. As the virus is mutating constantly, however, a second lethal strain could emerge, making your immunity to the first strain worthless -- and maybe killing you."

+++++++++++

The evidence so far is that many people have T-cell immunity (*innate* immune system) to SARS-CoV-2, and the way they have gotten this is through cross immunity: previous exposure to other corona viruses. In fact, herd immunity is the safest and most efficient way to protect against future mutations. People who get a vaccine geared to a particular virus and whose *adaptive* immune systems create antibodies in response to that virus are the most at risk if a similar but not identical virus comes along because t their antibodies will overreact to the new virus but will not be able to defeat it. This problem has been widely observed in the case of the flu vaccine (which is always an approximation to the actual flu in any given season, based on earlier seasons' viruses).

Posted by: Really?? | Jul 18 2020 2:20 utc | 79

Really??

Very early on, it was known that the virus can be systemic and that it fucks with the immune system. Those that recover from a severe bout can have permanent damage to the lungs and other organs. That was known early on.
Now it is becoming known that a percentage of people not considered in the risk group and do not get to the stage of being considered critical can have debilitating effects that last for some time most likely due to autoimmune type problems. A small percentage of kids also are getting hit with autoimmune type problems.

A number of the more simplistic types here think if you live healthy, your immune system will protect you from everything.

But the immune system is like software that can easily be corrupted and not just cause glitches, but actively attack what it is supposed to defend.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 18 2020 2:37 utc | 80

oldhippie @ 17, I too can't get my head around the testing and the various charts - there are so many different versions, each a significantly different appraisal depending on the particular state and all the unique properties of each.

I think you would enjoy watching the video b has put here because it is on an entirely different level. Each of the participants - there are three from different university science departments - has done or overseen actual studies in different situations - there is a hamster who won't wear a mask, a cat which will, and just a reliance on what the studies show with carefully limited but understandable results. The virus is transmitted mainly by respiration, with finer droplets (classed by the medicals as aerosols) being retarded or not in different situations depending on air flow. And as b is pointing out, what matters is that a mask will prevent a large dose of the virus so that even if you do get sick, the illness will be milder. And if you are already unknowingly mildly ill, it will prevent transmission from you to another or others. That's a good thing!

I think that's far better than waiting for 'herd immunity' going around possibly infecting who knows how many in the process in a huge country like the US.

Let the governor of Georgia have his fight. We should wear masks. That's our fight. It will markedly reduce the ability of the virus to hop from one person to another. It will bring us back to where we want to be. I think it is the only way to do that, each of us trying personally to save every life.

The folk in Atlanta can do this, even without the mayor's edict. The black community there is strong; they can show the way. Let the governor be like old King Canute ordering the tide to stand still. I'm tired of posters saying Americans are stupid -- show them they are wrong!

Posted by: juliania | Jul 18 2020 2:45 utc | 81

Interesting to see the discussion about government versus no-government.

I think the eternal and only war is that of the rich and powerful against the poor and powerless, whom they exploit and make and keep poor and powerless.

In this scheme of things, government becomes the greatest innovation that the poor have yet devised. If only they could get government to work as it is conceived to work.

But the rich and powerful take over and come to own government, and so the poor are once again dispossessed, and all intellectual thought that arises within the time scale of this tragedy sees the failure of government as a characteristic of government, instead of a subversion of government.

~~

Imagine a future that draws from past and present governments in some countries already existing, and creates a government that works according to the manual, and proves itself to be the greatest innovation of the poor and powerless against the depredations of the rich and powerful.

We could look at instances from this very year of 2020 to establish that all the tools for such a society already exist, even in the corrupted societies such as the US. The tools exist, the means exist, the knowledge exists, and the political will is all that awaits.

But to say it cannot be is a lie. It can be. All the pieces lie to hand.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 18 2020 2:45 utc | 82

Richard Steven Hack

I agree with remarks by Peter AU1 @Jul18 2:01 #77.

No-government and other forms of Anarchy are not practical now or anytime soon. In fact, history shows that anarchist idealists have not achieved much but have instead been manipulated by unscrupulous actors that want to gin up a revolt.

The best thing that anarchists could do as a group is warn of the danger of concentrated power - with pertinent examples - and propose solutions to prevent concentrated power. I count it a failure of anarchists that the public is still so clueless and generally have a bad view of them.

Any government is susceptible to overreach and take-over by organized groups. But many of us find that socialist governments are generally on the side of the people. They stand against capitalist excesses like war and neoliberal/fascist oligarchs that promote crony-capitalism, disaster-capitalism, vulture capitalism, and mafia-like rackets: protection, health/drugs, prostitution (on-the-take politicians, pressitute media, undocumented 'guest workers'), loan-sharking (aka credit cards), etc. And we are all poorer for it.

We need a practical solution asap. Depression and war are fast approaching.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 18 2020 2:53 utc | 83

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 18 2020 2:01 utc | 77 I would liken large corporations to warlords or oligarchs. under a no government situation they would just hire their own enforcers. Basically the same as they do know now, just that the enforcers are called government.

Yes, that is likely. But since that is the same situation as today, the difference is whether people will allow that. History shows that they will. In some right-wing anarchist theory, since there would be no government to impose a monopoly on violence, people could then hire their own protectors to compete with other "protection agencies". This basically reduces down to the same situation we have now - various "states" claiming a monopoly on violence. However, the anarchist theory suggests that with no "religious belief in the state", these agencies, good or bad, would have to rely on convincing people to support them, rather than hanging their acceptance on the notion of "state."

I don't argue for or against that proposition. I just point out that it's been discussed extensively in right-wing anarchist literature.

"A government of the people that actually works for the people does occur at different points in history."

Can you be specific? I've never seen such a list - mostly because I don't think there is one. It also depends on what you mean by "works for the people." Current China might qualify, and certainly they've done better than the US in terms of the pandemic, but there have been period in recent Chinese history where that clearly wasn't the case - at least in comparison to what other governments might have done in various circumstances. China has modified its government policies considerably in the last few decades, so taking current policies into account might be considered cherry-picking.

"Some things are too big to be tackled at community level."

Very few. Besides, anarchism doesn't presuppose everything is at the community level. There are variants that do presuppose that, but it's not a given part of the concept.

"the entire nation has the ability to work together for a common cause."

And if people were to work together - as everyone seems to assume can be done to *change* government - then why can't they work together to deal with such a situation *without* government?

You see - it cuts both ways. Either you need a government or you don't. If "the people" can do one thing with a government, they can do another without a government. Karl Hess once said something to the effect, "Do I ask the President if I need to get a haircut, or decide to buy a new car? No. But if I'm walking down the street and suddenly decide to ask, 'Should we go to war with Denmark?', then maybe I would call the President."

It's just a matter of organization. If people can organize on a large scale, as everyone seems to assume, then they can do so and form organizations to deal with any crisis. As the Null-A science fiction novels suggested, a society of rational people would be able to immediately deal with any crisis.

Unless, of course, you believe as I do that people in groups larger than a few hundred to a few thousand really can't function well in *any* society, government or not. I remind you that technically I am a "post-anarchist" - meaning I no longer believe even anarchism is possible for humans, let alone any form of society or government that would be actually rational and effective. They may not be utterly dysfunctional, perhaps sufficiently so to enable technological progress for some time, as the US and other countries have, but eventually the SHTF, as the preppers say. In the meantime, there is a steady progression of loss of civil liberty and wealth concentration - because that's what humans *do* when given access to *any* power, political or social.

With regard to China, you might be interested to look up the book "Daoism and Anarchism - Critiques of State Autonomy in Ancient and Modern China" by John A. Rapp. He discusses whether Daoism in early China was explicitly anarchist or not, but also discusses the influence of Chinese anarchism on the development of Chinese Communism up to the modern day. It's pretty revealing of internal Chinese Communist philosophical arguments and how neo-anarchists in China influenced Chinese government policies (or at least tried to.)

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 18 2020 2:58 utc | 84

Posted by: Really?? | Jul 18 2020 2:25 utc | 83 Hmm, you are an intelligent young keyboard warrior. Can you think of a way to say the same thing without spewing verbal viruses into the commonly breathed air at the bar?

First of all, I'm 71 - so, yeah, I'm young.

Second, I have seen this nonsensical BULLSHIT posted in every pandemic thread here by *morons* who don't bother to look up 1) what constitutes an "at risk" person in COVID-19 terms, and 2) how many Americans have those conditions.

So until these *morons* stop posting their ignorant BULLSHIT, yes, I will continue to "spew" (unless b tells me not to.)

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 18 2020 3:07 utc | 85

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 18 2020 2:45 utc | 86 I think the eternal and only war is that of the rich and powerful against the poor and powerless, whom they exploit and make and keep poor and powerless.

Correct.

"In this scheme of things, government becomes the greatest innovation that the poor have yet devised. If only they could get government to work as it is conceived to work. But the rich and powerful take over and come to own government, and so the poor are once again dispossessed, and all intellectual thought that arises within the time scale of this tragedy sees the failure of government as a characteristic of government, instead of a subversion of government."

Mostly correct. The problem is the notion that it can happen any other way. Most people believe it can. I and most individualist anarchists don't believe that. If you give human beings power - and it doesn't matter how circumscribed that power is, such as the US Constitution - the people who *believe* in power will subvert that government. And since the bulk of the population *believe* in government as a religious belief based on ten thousand years of the existence of the state in one form or the other - but always remaining the "state" - they will succeed in doing so. Those power seekers have a *focus* on getting power. "The people" don't have a *focus* on *resisting* power. They're too busy dealing with their own local concerns. So they end up allowing the subversion of their government by the power seekers.

This has been going on for ten thousand years in every civilization in history. Yet today we're supposed to believe that history can be changed if we just "come together" and sing "kumbayah".

Quoting Percival Rose yet again: "That ain't gonna happen."

"Imagine a future"

And right there is where the mistake is made. The only such future is one where humans are not human. And everyone seems to hate that idea.

Call me when your perfect government comes into existence. Hopefully I'll still be around in another ten thousand years...

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 18 2020 3:16 utc | 86

@Really?? | Jul 18 2020 2:20 utc | 82

The evidence so far is that many people have T-cell immunity (*innate* immune system) to SARS-CoV-2, and the way they have gotten this is through cross immunity: previous exposure to other corona viruses. In fact, herd immunity is the safest and most efficient way to protect against future mutations.

History apparently contradicts your "evidence". Why didn't herd immunity work against the 1918 flu? Presumably the world acquired antibodies against the first wave of the flu, but that immunity was apparently worth little when the second wave came, which was far more lethal.

I reiterate: if you allow lots of people to get infected, you risk a deadly second wave evolving from the giant reservoir of the first wave.

Posted by: Cyril | Jul 18 2020 3:17 utc | 87

Really?? @Jul18 2:13 @81

there is no scientific basis for 24/7 mask wearing, also out of doors

Most mask laws that I've seen mandate that the mask be worn in public places like stores, restaurants, and streets - basically places where you'll be near others.

"24/7 mask wearing" is a strawman for the anti-mask crowd.

<> <> <> <> <>

Really?? @Jul18 2:20 #82

The evidence so far is that many people have T-cell immunity (*innate* immune system)

T-cell immunity is only partial. The virus mutates to defeat this. Corona viruses are very good at doing so - that's why many people catch cold every year, sometimes multiple times in a year.

Gene expression has been found to be a factor. For example, young people don't get sick because genes that would cause susceptibility haven't yet kicked in.

<> <> <> <> <>

Really?? @Jul18 2:55 #89

Enjoy your fetid, petri-dish mask!!

Another strawman. Everyone knows that most masks don't provide full protection. And neither does "social distancing". But the combination makes it much less likely to get infected.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 18 2020 3:23 utc | 88

Really

For the early stuff on immune reactions to the bug look up what china put out a couple of weeks after it got the bug under control. Then look up the various western shit when they reinvented the wheel and surprise surprise who woulda thunk it, the immune system does nasty stuff.

The immune system is a fragile thing and as I said easily corrupted. With SARS-CoV-2 it is not just the pathogen that is the problem but the immune system as well.

Over reaction of the immune system is usually limited to a small percentage of a population, but with this bug, it is much more widespread.
The yank way of dealing with it, and their groupies that post here, is very much survival of the fittest type stuff.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 18 2020 3:27 utc | 89

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 18 2020 2:53 utc | 88 No-government and other forms of Anarchy are not practical now or anytime soon. In fact, history shows that anarchist idealists have not achieved much but have instead been manipulated by unscrupulous actors that want to gin up a revolt.

I agree, as I said before.

"The best thing that anarchists could do as a group is warn of the danger of concentrated power - with pertinent examples - and propose solutions to prevent concentrated power. I count it a failure of anarchists that the public is still so clueless and generally have a bad view of them."

Heh, and how do you expect anarchists to "convince the public" of the dangers of concentrated power when the entire religious belief of the public is that anarchism is a fool's errand and to be dismissed as you do? You think anarchists haven't *tried* for the last hundred years or more? Why do you think they engaged in revolutions like the Paris Commune, the anti-Fascists in Spain, union organizing in the US, etc., ad nauseum.

It doesn't work because people have a religious belief in the state conditioned by ten thousand years of state existence.

"But many of us find that socialist governments are generally on the side of the people. They stand against capitalist excesses like war"

Uhm, have you forgotten the Soviet Union? Are you in favor of Stalin? I don't even "normal" Communists approve of him. But he arose in a Communist state.

Governments of *any* stripe are *never* "on the side of the people" - except to the degree that they can use that perception to remain in power. No government wants a revolution, by definition. So some accommodations have to be made. To what degree they are made depends on the intelligence of the rulers. Smart ones do a lot of accommodation. Dumb ones don't and get kicked out. Gorbachev was the first "smart Communist". He recognized that Communism was a dead end, and that ruling in the manner of the capitalist states was the smart play. You give the people a better economy than socialism can provide in terms of products people want (and would otherwise buy on the black market) and in return they let you stay in power.

I shouldn't have to point this sort of thing out - it's blatantly true throughout history. This is how governments and rulers work.

"We need a practical solution asap."

You're not going to get one. So better buckle up.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 18 2020 3:28 utc | 90

It's obvious to me this site is a CIA mouthpiece. There are many important issues to discuss and this hyped virus is dominating the discussion

Posted by: Bungartz | Jul 18 2020 3:33 utc | 91

Posted by: Really? | Jul 18 2020 3:24 utc | 99 You are insufferable with your constant spewing.

You are insufferable with your constant bullshit.

"You do not read the actual arguments made"

More bullshit. I am very careful to list sentences stated and respond to each point, if a specific point has been made. Much of the time it's mere assertions by ignorant people who haven't done the research. I do the research and present links supporting my points. Morons like you don't.

"I am surprised the b allows you to spew in this obnoxious fashion."

I suspect he knows that I do indeed provide links to useful information and which support my opinions, as opposed to the ignorant posters who don't.

"Actual reports from the WHO and CDC and ONS analyses of them, citations and analyses of European studies, etc."

Many of which I've posted links to. Just not the ones that allegedly inform your ignorance, such as stuff by Rancourt and Huber which the mask deniers cherry pick to rely on.

"I really don't have to read an expletive-spewing shut-in in order to inform myself regarding SARS-CoV-2, covid-19, and related subjects."

If you don't bother to inform yourself, then perhaps you don't. And it would appear from your opinions that being informed is not one of your motivations.

"In fact, I am surprised, after an absence of a few weeks, at how there has been so little visible progress in the understanding of covid-19 on the part of most of the barflies."

In other words, too many people still disagree with your nonsense.

"Pfui! I'll go elsewhere. Sorry I stopped in for a drink. There are other much better-informed and pleasant bars."

Once you're gone, this will be a more pleasant bar. Less bullshit.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 18 2020 3:34 utc | 92

Really? @Jul18 3:24 #99

You recognize the campaign against HCQ and the profit motive of Big Pharma so why can't you see that the herd immunity, anti-lockdown, and anti-mask people are one and the same. And all of that simply lines the pockets of Big Pharma and kills lots of people that the power-elite see as a burden.

First they came for the journalists ... then they came for the old and weak ...

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 18 2020 3:36 utc | 93

thanks grieved..... i liked what you said.... it kind of echos peter au and jackrabbits views on this which i also share...

rsh - why wait for a perfect gov't? you think there is such a thing as a perfect non gov't?? i think you are being unrealistic..at this point in time the gov't of the usa has been quite corrupted thanks the political system in place... people can change that and eventually they will... in fact what the usa is doing to itself right now is real proof of it in the state of collapse... what would you like to see come out of this?? no gov't, or a gov't that ideally serves the people?? at present it sure ain't that... most all of the gov'ts now are mostly just rubber stamping a corporate agenda that is definitely not in the interests of the great many people who are subject to this..

Posted by: james | Jul 18 2020 3:48 utc | 94

@96 Richard Steven Hack - "Hopefully I'll still be around in another ten thousand years..."

Don't worry, you will. You won't remember this particular view that you held today. I won't remember mine. But the world may have changed, and you may then think different things accordingly. So may I. Ten thousand years is not so long. A good horizon to aim for.

Intention and aspiration, although thought of as "intangible" in materialistic views, are nonetheless vital, and energetic, and have form, and can serve as cause for consequence.

I wish you familiarity and friendship with the unseen worlds.

I wish you well.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 18 2020 3:51 utc | 95

Richard Steven Hack | Jul 18 2020 1:25 utc | 71

"How many FUCKING TIMES do I have to point out that there are over ONE HUNDRED MILLION AMERICANS AT RISK due to underlying comorbidities?"

US population @ 331,000,000 - so approx 30% of the population.
Obesity, heart disease, diabetes, high blood pressure & cancers - all the result of poor diet eating shit in massive quantities. Obscenely sized meals that are considered normal.
Self inflicted.

If the US had the same % of at risk elderly/immune compromised as other countries "protecting the population most at risk" would be a viable option.

As I said before, the American lacks any form of self discipline, they are weak willed & feeble minded, greedy over consumers.
Like pigs at a trough.

Good luck with masking - your lot won't have them on long enough before they have to stuff another fistful of lard down their gob hole.

Posted by: ted01 | Jul 18 2020 3:54 utc | 96

so many troll and sockpuppet today , some even forgot to change their username and posted frank herbert dune quote lol.. next time change your username to your sock puppet accounts dr yueh and duncan idaho..

Posted by: milomilo | Jul 18 2020 4:01 utc | 97

this is what america is today , i hope Trump win in november 2020 , preferably with suspicious counting and cheating.

Four more years of trump will destroy america from inside..

lets all vote for trump

Posted by: milomilo | Jul 18 2020 4:03 utc | 98

Really?? @Jul18 3:50 #106

much more informative, urbane, and pleasant company

That's just an excuse for you to slink away without engaging those who have countered your weak position.

I think you're afraid of Covid-19 so you promote herd immunity in the hope that it will protect you. You're thinking that its the only realistic chance for protecting yourself. You recognize that government and Big Pharma have played you and everyone but you ignore the implications of that in order to make a play for your own safety.

Your best chance is a government that works for you and and all its people - a government that would really fight the virus. Your willingness to play along with a corrupt government only puts you more at risk. There may not be a vaccine that works. And there will be future disasters where this crony-capitialist government will put you and yours at risk.

You will always pay for your failure to hold them accountable. They grow rich on the cowardice of suckers like you./unpleasantness

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 18 2020 4:12 utc | 99

"Lockdownskeptics.org.
Plus, much more informative, urbane, and pleasant company than at this bar.
Posted by: Really?? | Jul 18 2020 3:50 utc | 106"

toby young is the guy that started and runs this blog...

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Toby_Young&oldid=855141565

a real savoury character, lol... i can imagine how 'pleasant' and much more 'informed' the company is...

Posted by: james | Jul 18 2020 4:56 utc | 100

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