Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 18, 2020

Why The Chinese-Indian Skirmishes May Escalate

On Monday night a fight between Indian and Chinese soldiers cost several dozen lives:

Twenty Indian Army personnel, including a commanding officer (CO), were killed in a fierce clash with Chinese troops in the Galwan Valley in eastern Ladakh on Monday night, the biggest military confrontation in over five decades that has significantly escalated the already volatile border standoff in the region.
...
Government sources said the Chinese side too suffered "proportionate casualties" but chose not to speculate on the number. An ANI source has speculated that at least 43 Chinese soldiers have been seriously injured or killed in the clash.

Both sides have agreed to not use guns along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) between the two countries. The soldiers used clubs and stones to fight each other during the night on a mountain ridge at 4,000 meter (14,000ft) height above the steep canyon of a very cold river. Apparently many of the dead fell off the ridge down into the river and died of hypothermia.


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Minor clashes in the area over the historically ill defined and disputed border have been ongoing since April. The immediate reason seems to be a new military access road that India has built towards the LAC and more aggressive patrolling on both sides. But the strategic reasons behind these clashes loom much larger.

First a reminder of the area's history:

At the time of the British withdrawal from India, Maharaja Hari Singh, the ruler of the state, preferred to become independent and remain neutral between the successor dominions of India and Pakistan. However, an uprising in the western districts of the State followed by an attack by raiders from the neighbouring Northwest Frontier Province, supported by Pakistan, put an end to his plans for independence. On 26 October 1947, the Maharaja signed the Instrument of Accession joining the Dominion of India in return for military aid. The western and northern districts presently known as Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan passed to the control of Pakistan, while the remaining territory became the Indian state Jammu and Kashmir.

The accession was limited to certain issues and Jammu and Kashmir became an autonomous state.

During the India-Pakistan partition in 1947 Pakistan had taken the norther part of the area known as Gilgit-Balistan while China took Aksai Chin, a historic part of Tibet. Out of historic, religious and cultural reasons both would probably like to claim even more of the currently Indian area.


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Kashmir is largely Muslim and Pakistan sees it as part of its country. The eastern Ladakh region once belonged to Tibet. It is thinly populated with people who are Buddhist and speak a similar Tibetan dialect as the people in Aksai Chin on the Chinese side.

In August 2019 the Hindu-fascist government under President Narendra Modi unilaterally revoked parts of the constitution that guaranteed the autonomous status of the Jammu and Kasmir region. It also asserted direct control of the Ladakh part along the Chinese border. We predicted that this would lead to renewed clashes with Pakistan:

J&K is majority Muslim. It is of strategic importance as the headwaters of Pakistan's main water source, the Indus river system, are situated in J&K's mountains. Pakistani nationalist believe that it should be part of their state.
...
J&K's special status protected its inhabitants from overwhelming migration of Hindus from main India. Modi will now push his followers to move into the state. His aim in the end is to create a majority Hindu state in a currently majority Muslim one.

When the Indian government move was discussed in parliament a government minister asserted claims on the areas that now belong to China and Pakistan:

Home Minister Amit Shah on Tuesday asserted in Lok Sabha that Pakistan occupied Kashmir (PoK) and Aksai Chin are part of Jammu and Kashmir and that Kashmir Valley is an integral part of the country.
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“Kashmir is an integral part of India, there is no doubt over it. When I talk about Jammu and Kashmir, Pakistan occupied Kashmir and Aksai Chin are included in it,” he said.

The claim set off alarm bells in Islamabad and Beijing.

The only common boarder China and Pakistan have is within the Pakistan controlled Kashmir (POK). Should India eventual try to (re-)gain the area Pakistan and China would be separated. The China Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC), a $50 billion project that creates road, rail and pipeline connections from Pakistan's coast towards China, would be interrupted.


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China is financing the corridor as an alternative strategic trade route to the U.S. controlled sea ways through the South China Sea and the Strait of Malacca.


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China needs the Pakistan connection to keep a line of communication with the oil fields of the Middle East during an eventual conflict in the Pacific.

China’s core interests have dictated that India should be firmly dissuaded from considering recovery of Gilgit-Baltistan to fulfil its long-stated goal of unifying Kashmir, in pursuit of a unanimous parliamentary resolution passed in 1994. China has also been vocal about retaining Aksai Chin — the essential link between Tibet and Xinjiang.

The removal of autonomy from J&K last year was not the only issue that alarmed China. India under Modi has given up its traditional neutrality and joint the U.S. 'Indo-Pacific' project in a pact against China. India has for quite a while built up its military infrastructure in the region:

[T]he Chinese have also been uncomfortable with infrastructure development along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) with India, especially due to the pressure it imposes on Aksai Chin.

By 2008, India had reactivated airfields of Daulet Beg Oldie (DBO) and Fukche, reducing reliance on Leh as the main air support hub for Ladakh. A year later, the Nyoma airfield had also been revived. “DBO is on the old Leh-Tarim basin trade route through the Karakoram pass and only nine kilometers northwest of Aksai Chin. It is also important because India’s physical link with China’s Xinjiang province, and not Tibet, is routed through DBO,” says a former diplomat, who did not wish to be named.

The revival of the aviation infrastructure has augmented India’s capacity to quickly insert troops and military supplies along the LAC. “DBO, Fukche and Nyoma have supplemented Leh, providing a major boost to intra-theatre movement of Indian forces and equipment along the LAC,” Air Vice Marshal (Retd.) Amit Aneja, told The Hindu.

Indian road construction activity, with the 255-km Darbuk-Shayok-Daulat Beg Oldie (DSDBO) as the spine has steeled Indian connectivity along the LAC, adding further pressure on Aksai Chin.

Satellite pictures show that China has positioned more troops behind the LAC and is ready should the current situation escalate further. India has likewise sent reinforcements into the wider area.

The U.S. and Australia have verbally supported India during the recent clashes. But neither seems inclined to become involved in an actual conflict.

The Sino-Indian war of 1962 started over similar border skirmishes and also with a larger strategic background. Within a few days China took several areas from India but after a month it pulled back from Indian territory. The idea had been to teach India a lesson and the point had been made.

Should the conflict escalate I expect a similar short and limited conflict as a reminder to Modi that a non-neutral alignment and claims on foreign territory do carry certain costs.

Posted by b on June 18, 2020 at 16:51 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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- This is NOT the first time prime minister Modi has deliberately increased tensions with Pakistan.

Posted by: Willy2 | Jun 18 2020 16:56 utc | 1

thanks b... excellent overview and summary.... M. K. BHADRAKUMAR also has an article out today for anyone interested..1962 India-China war redeux?

Posted by: james | Jun 18 2020 17:11 utc | 2

As I Tweeted.
Your breath of outlook is outstanding considering the lack of Strategic vision available to CIA & State's "Policy Wonks."
Duffers Mostly.
In my embedded stay in your Military, the Mediocrity of USA Military Officers IQ was Appalling.
Just Gym, Coffee & running after their own Tales!
And it was the peak of Iraqi insurgency in 2007.
I from exotic east, found the American "Obliviousness" to reality, amusing and strangely "Comforting!"
I Predicted 2020, American Military would be doing, "Pity Please!! Get me outta AFG!"
Happened.

Posted by: Haider | Jun 18 2020 17:20 utc | 3

There is a chinese proverb: The rat that gnaws the tiger's tail invite destruction. The self delusion of the Indian elites is stunning.

Posted by: aquadraht | Jun 18 2020 17:34 utc | 4

They had guns but decided to fights with stick probly just another border flair up, both sides claim V and go home

Posted by: Bob | Jun 18 2020 17:44 utc | 5

Modi's a loose cannon. Unfortunately, inclusion of India and Pakistan into the SCO has failed to reduce the issues between them; indeed, they've escalated instead. Partition created a monster that didn't previously exist, but that's just one problem European Colonization created. The other is a major ideological lie known as the Aryan Invasion, which is a myth as eventually admitted by its originator Max Muller but not until much damage was done--damage that persists to this day. This preview provides an short introduction to the problem. One would think that the genuine history of the region's people would gain precedence over a disproven myth, but the need to maintain dominance (Hindu Caste System) perpetuates the lie. This ties into the short note I wrote about corruption and humanity on another thread. IMO, there are two peoples who view themselves as exceptional--Anglo-Americans and Bhrama Caste Hindus--both of whom pose differing dangers to humanity.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 18 2020 18:04 utc | 6

1962? What? A lot has changed since 1962, so no, it's not a redux of 1962. India cannot compete with China. Hell, in India they're still shitting in the streets just as they were in 1962. China, on the other hand, has entirely migrated from an agrarian society of peasant farmers to an industrialized society with mostly urban dwelling citizens. Citizens who know how to use a toilet and understand why they should.

Toilets Schmoilets

Posted by: 450.org | Jun 18 2020 18:04 utc | 7

India and China in a Water War

Since the completion of the Zangmu dam by China in late 2014, the largest hydropower dam on the Brahmaputra River, security observers have been warning of the onset of water wars between India and China.

"With exponential economic growth and expanding population, China is staring at crippling water shortages,” he said. “It is already one of the most world's water-stressed countries and relies on mega-infrastructure projects such as Three Gorge Dams and South–North Water Diversion projects to deal with its water challenges. It is also diverting waters from the Brahmaputra to its dry north. All these have ramifications for India."

Menon added that though Indian and China have mechanisms over water sharing, there's no bilateral water treaty without which water conflicts can potentially become a serious challenge to Sino-Indian relations. "It wouldn't be far-fetched to imagine a scenario in which control over the river becomes enmeshed with a larger border conflict," he said.

Posted by: 450.org | Jun 18 2020 18:26 utc | 8

Thank you, b, for the history lesson. It needs another read to fully absorb it.

I don't know. Killing each other with fists and stones seems to say this is not a fly-by-night skirmish but the result of generational ethno-nationalist mistrust among the Chinese and the Indians.

When the CCP rose to central command over all of China, gobbling up power and territory where it could, would China lovers in here agree that this was a fascist takeover, the same way that b has ascribed the situation involving Kashmir under Indian control?

Fair is fair and it takes two to tango. There are myriad reasons border skirmishes can exist btw two very different states. To lay it solely at the feet of any one invites chinks in the armor.

Cooler heads will prevail. My guess an area of neutrality will be settled again.

There is no proof anywhere I can see of Trump's fingerprints. If anything, his willingness to mediate speaks volumes that he is standing by his oath to not intervene in quarrels among nations, except as a fair-minded observer.

Those who insist otherwise are not looking closely at the facts on the ground.

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Jun 18 2020 18:34 utc | 9

@b

Wait for India to use her temporary UNSC seat for the next 2 years to get the US to help against China. Now let's see the scramble for the islands in the Indian Ocean on one hand and the African Nuclear Weapons-Free Zone (ANWFZ) on the other hand. India is looking to set a foot on the island of Agaléga to compete with the Chinese PLA in the Indian Ocean.

“He who controls the Indian Ocean shall control the world.”( dixit US Admiral Mahan). Since China put forward its 21st Century Maritime Silk Route (MSR) initiative, Japan, USA, Australia has followed suit with the Free and Open Indo-Pacific (FOIP). India has come up with the Security and Growth for All in the Region (SAGAR) and the European Union has its Maritime Security (MASE) program.

À suivre...

Posted by: Yul | Jun 18 2020 18:51 utc | 10

You some may find interesting, @qiaocollective, Twitter account of collective of diaspora Chinese challenging US aggression on China....In the event communications are cut off in the future, as has happened with DPRK/SK...For what I have read so far, just I found it retwitted at another account I follow, they seem to broadcast Chinese point of view/position...

https://twitter.com/qiaocollective

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Jun 18 2020 18:58 utc | 11

Modi needs toilets for the 500,000,000 citizens who still use the road and sidewalks for toilets. (Yes, half a billion people).

Indian development for all its people is the challenge, yet, Modi thinks the border war makes him look like a leader.

China offered to build the Indian railways. Modi turned it down. His infrastructure is dirt roads and structures from colonial times.

He's a moron. Perfect to manipulate by the West.

Posted by: Red Ryder | Jun 18 2020 18:58 utc | 12

This Himalayan squabble is the way all future wars should be fought if wars must be fought and apparently they must be. Keep the weapons manufacturers and their parasitic profit-taking out of it. Fight with your bare hands and sticks and stones and let the war profiteers starve and die on the vine.

I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. ~ Albert Einstein

Posted by: 450.org | Jun 18 2020 18:58 utc | 13

Nemesiscalling @9--

When the CCP prevailed in 1949, it restored sovereignty over the vast majority of Chinese territory, throwing out Colonialists, Japanese Imperialists, and Chinese gangsters, which was most certainly NOT "a fascist takeover." It was a war of National Liberation and Rejuvenation, and it's still not complete--it still needs to recoup the island where the Gangsters fled to--Gangsters being the term used to describe Chiang Kai-shek by those from the Outlaw US Empire who knew him best: Generals Stimson, Marshall and Stillwell.

I view India as very unstable politically. It's been very poorly served by those upper caste Hindus who've ruled it since partition. Of course, India suffered great damage from the British as did Pakistan, and both still wrestle profoundly with their Colonial legacy. The differences between Modi and Khan are stark--the former being a divider, the latter a uniter. Both face hard futures thanks to the environmental degradation of their nations, but I see Pakistan in a slightly better position. Both need peace to prevail so their problems can be addressed.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 18 2020 19:20 utc | 14

@14 karlof1

Ok, how bout Tibet? Uyghur's? Seeing the parralel?

No? Yeah, thought so.

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Jun 18 2020 19:26 utc | 15

@ 15 nemesiscalling... karlof1 is trying to be helpful.. if that is your attitude, it is not an encouraging one that fosters more commentary from karlof1!!

Posted by: james | Jun 18 2020 19:29 utc | 16

@ Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Jun 18 2020 19:26 utc | 15

China's borders are the same left by the Qing Dynasty. They didn't conquer any more land than the greatest extension of the Chinese Empire.

Tibet was a brutal feudal regime. It is considered to be the last feudal kingdom in History. The Dalai Lamas were brutal warlords before the ultimate communist liberation of its people.

Nowadays, Tibet grows ten times faster than the rest of China. It was a very good deal to the Tibetan people (except, of course, the Dalai Lama himself and his feudal court).

Posted by: vk | Jun 18 2020 19:44 utc | 17

I saw a documentary on southern China not long back. In some of the villages older women had tattooed faces. Tibetans used to raid into China take the women and tattoo their faces. We are swamped with crap about peaceful buddhists, but for the Chinese border towns,Tibetans were anything but peaceful. Just another dumb country that thought working with the CIA made them invulnerable.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 18 2020 19:44 utc | 18

Nemesiscalling @15

There is no parallel, and if you try to pretend that you give a shit about anyone living in Tibet or Xinjiang then everyone will just laugh at you. If you really gave a shit then you would know more about those places and realize that your disingenuous gesture of concern is misplaced.

Anyway, there is a huge difference between a socialist revolution and a fascist takeover. They are polar opposites, in fact. In the former the population takes down the capitalist elite's power structures and in the latter the capitalist elites destroy working class organizations/power. You'd have to be utterly clueless to confuse the two.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 18 2020 19:46 utc | 19

very interesting and informative review from B, not sure if anyone else has tried looking on YouTube for information on the conflict but it gave me a ridiculous series of videos on how India troops will quickly "steamroll over the pathetic Chinese soldiers" and how China's army is made up of "little Emperors" who cant fight made by a bunch of Indian youtubers with less than a dozen subscribers. Not sure why YouTube would put a bunch of videos by Z-listers as the top results, I guess Modi's supporters must have gamed the algorithm to push their preferred results to the top.

Posted by: Kadath | Jun 18 2020 19:56 utc | 20

Hello @karlof1 | Jun 18 2020 18:04 utc | 6

The link inside the link

http://indiafacts.org/aryan-invasion-myth-21st-century-science-debunks-19th-century-indology/

...while the numbers may be true, apparently only discussing half of them, the story reads an awful lot like regular Hindu nationalism

Bhrama Caste Hindus

Referring to Modi? or the author?

Posted by: Just Me | Jun 18 2020 20:05 utc | 21

I suppose I need to know the geographical history of the region before I can adequately draw a parralel between India and Kashmir and China and its reasserted regions that were according to vk, liberated from the brutal buddhists.

Do any of you know India's claim to the territory dating back to vk's parralel of the Qing Dynasty?

I will have to look it up.

And, Gruff, I don't care about what China does in its backyard, contrary to the neocon opinion you have of me. IMO, Trump does not mention Tibet nor the Uyghurs BECAUSE of backroom diplomacy and because Trump feels the same way...it isn't our backyard.

And, James, Karlof1 does not need your goody intervention. He is grown man and was trying to selectively lecture me on the infallibility of the CCP. Unfortunately, for anyone who has read a lick of Thucydides or has a cursory understanding of Hegel, parralels can be drawn across the geopolitical board and there is no convincing me that the CCP has somehow managed to avoid "The Trap."

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jun 18 2020 20:20 utc | 22

the only point about China's crimes (and "crimes") is to justify ongoing Western imperialism. it makes no difference whether any of this happened or not; the Uighurs have rhetorical value, period. no one in the US, certainly not Nemesisisknocking, gives a shit about Tibet or any of these causes they spout off about. that Nemesis knows nothing is apparent, but irrelevant. he or she should run for Congress or apply to replace J Bolton. that people in the West are worried at all about what China is up to is the problem. such fake worry is nothing but a distraction. The US mows down the peaceful native flower children everywhere in the world...except apparently Tibet. oh no. their "spiritual leader" gets his own Apple commercials, b/c Steve Jobs was such a spiritual man. and We Care about Things. we care so much about Tibet and Taiwan and N Korea. just look at all the good things the British did for China.

of course these cold warrior assholes never consider that China (much less Cuba or VZ or Iran) is responding to a world China did not create. there is no history at all, no force outside autonomous state actors. China does things cuz China is bad. period.

Nah. they see nothing of their own history in the USG flooding its own populace with drugs. commie paranoia created revolutionary movements. like Russian outside agitators and antifa BLM activists and vegan rights terrorists today. why could one possibly be dissatisfied w/this capitalist shithole planet?

no one in the US where I am can do a damn thing about China. except support US imperialism. people here don't even know what is happening in Mexico. but they think they know all about the Uighurs. funny.

Posted by: jason | Jun 18 2020 20:21 utc | 23

re: Modi has given up its traditional neutrality and joined the U.S. 'Indo-Pacific' project

Not so. India has refused to join 'The Quad' with US, Japan & Australia. It's “strategic autonomy" for India. In fact The Quad has not been formalized. Japan and Oz aren't too keen on it either.
The US has threatened India with sanctions if it buys the S-400 missile system from Russia.
India has been and will continue to be non-aligned, probably due to its British experience. Modi has recently affirmed this:
. . . .Times of India article, May 12, 2020 -- (won't copy)
Full text: PM Modi's address to nation on Covid-19
--"self-reliant India"
--The debate on Human Centric Globalization vs. Economy Centralized Globalization is on.
--self-reliant India will stand on five Pillars
--'Atma Nirbhar Abhiyan' (Self Reliant India Campaign)
--local manufacturing, local market and local supply chain . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 18 2020 20:28 utc | 24

vk @17 says: "China's borders are the same left by the Qing Dynasty. They didn't conquer any more land than the greatest extension of the Chinese Empire."

Actually minor correction: China's borders are considerably SMALLER than left by the Qinq Dynasty - but don't tell that to Nemesiscalling. He would start saying that Qinq is not "Chinese", blah, blah, blah,... I have enough experience with those ignorant people.

Posted by: d dan | Jun 18 2020 20:35 utc | 25

NemesisCalling @22

If you understood Thucydides then you would know that "avoiding the trap" is not a choice the rising power can make except by not rising. The only party to the trap that has a choice in whether the trap is sprung into war is the waning power. I am sure karlof1 understands that quite well.

As well, the CCP is infallible in the same way that the Scientific Method is infallible, which is to say not at all. It does, however, have methods to correct its errors, though, just like the Scientific Method. This self-correction is what bourgeois democracy was (notionally) intended to accomplish, but it should be obvious looking out on the street today in America that bourgeois democracy doesn't really work that way.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 18 2020 20:38 utc | 26

Doesn't sound like anyone commenting here has been to India in the past 20 years, if ever. India is a rich country now and could hold its own if it decided to push back hard. China has more troops it can use as canon fodder, which is its modus operandi. It can go either way. I don't think Modi is crazy. And calling him a fascist is a category error. He's a Hindu nationalist. Same people who assassinated the Mahatma.

Posted by: Bugs Bunny | Jun 18 2020 20:45 utc | 27

Here’s an article saying the conventional wisdom that China is the clearly stronger party militarily might not be true in this specific region at this particular moment in history: https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/17/asia/india-china-military-comparison-hnk-intl-scli/index.html

Despite coming via CNN from U.S. establishment think-tank land, it looks like a fairly serious attempt at analysis. On the other hand, maybe it’s just a better disguised version of the usual U.S. penchant for prejudice-as-policy.

However, if it is true that India has (or merely thinks it has) a military edge in Kashmir presently, but one that is expected to erode with China’s continued to rise to superpower status, and with a nationalist (irredentist?) government in New Delhi (i.e. if India may be feeling they are in a “use it or lose it” scenario — well, that sounds like a potentially highly unstable situation.

Posted by: David G | Jun 18 2020 20:46 utc | 28

It sounds to me like “an affair of outposts”.

It will remain a mystery - probably for ever - why Mountbatten did not award Kashmir, with its strong Muslim majority, to Pakistan at Partition. We can only guess the reasons.

Posted by: Montreal | Jun 18 2020 20:49 utc | 29

This is the type of posting that commenter BM is going to have a hard time attributing to someone other than b

Thanks for the posting b and must add that I tire easily of the scene-by-scene demise of America that your postings keep bringing us back to.

As for the India/China situation, Modi's actions fit into the civilization war that I write is between public/private finance. India's aggression is typical of elitist types which karlof1 has described above as upper caste Hindus in India. This sharing of elitist values/people of India with empire is being played by failing empire as a war front against China. I expect the efforts of India will be neutered quickly and Modi will be forced to back down because both India and China know that any war between them will only improve other nations positions and hurt their own.

All of humanity has skin in the game of the civilization war we are in. Act accordingly.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jun 18 2020 20:56 utc | 30

China needs the Pakistan connection to keep a line of communication with the oil fields of the Middle East during an eventual conflict in the Pacific.

Inevitable?

"We have always been at war with Oceania". Really now b.

Posted by: Jay | Jun 18 2020 20:58 utc | 31

Don Bacon | Jun 18 2020 20:28 utc | 24:

It isn’t accurate to say India has refused to join the Quad. It may just be a talking shop, but such as it is, India is a member. (Otherwise it would still be the “Tri”, as it was earlier this century.)

Posted by: David G | Jun 18 2020 21:00 utc | 32

Bugs Bunny @27

I spent a brief period a few years back teaching "Technical English" at a Bangalore "university" specializing in IT in which, oddly enough, "Technical English" was the only course taught. "Get your Information Tech Bachelor's in six weeks!"

I felt really dirty after that experience and was happy when that gig was up and I could head to much less polluted pastures in Yunnan, China, where everyone had indoor running water and electricity.

I didn't see this richness of which you speak in India. Just dirt.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 18 2020 21:07 utc | 33

b -- Aksai Chin is pretty much uninhabited, except for the military posts. (One reason the Indian side had no clue that the Chinese had built a road that they claimed (or rather, would claim)). It is now included in Xinjiang by the Chinese, I believe.

Posted by: Utpal Lahiri | Jun 18 2020 21:08 utc | 34

The quad is an informal alliance. India has been participating in it since inception.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 18 2020 21:08 utc | 35

this is not a "himalayan" squabble...The US is in full battle mode with Russia, China, Iran, Syria, and anyone else they can piegonhole...The road the Chinese and Pakistan are building from the Pakistani coast to the Chinese border goes through the NW portion of the disputed area.

Posted by: donten | Jun 18 2020 21:13 utc | 36

@ David 32
I put "The Quad" in quotes because it doesn't formally exist. India has maintained its non-alinement as I said in my 24.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 18 2020 21:25 utc | 37

@ Peter 35
re: The quad is an informal alliance. India has been participating in it since inception.
What does that "participation" consist of?

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 18 2020 21:28 utc | 38

Don 37

A partial list here of US India defence ties https://archive.defense.gov/pubs/US-IND-Fact-Sheet.pdf
That list is only until 2015. More have been signed since. I believe one a year or so back gave each access to the others defence facilities. I don't see Idian using US airbases for strikes on Canada or Mexico but US will be making use of India's bases for its war on the world. The Indians may think they are using US for their own ends, but they are fools. US will fight China to the last Indian, and for that matter to the last Japanese and Australian.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 18 2020 21:33 utc | 39

H Schmatz @ 11
Thanks for that brilliant link ! Wow that’s a breath of fresh air.
In the west we only here less than half the truth, which is no truth, ‘spun elite agenda’
I Recommend that link.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 18 2020 21:41 utc | 40

Good to see you back PeterAU1 @...

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 18 2020 21:46 utc | 41

Prime minister Modi's recklessness is becoming hard to fathom.

Posted by: Steve | Jun 18 2020 21:50 utc | 42

Funny how I just finished reading Vladimir Putin's essay aimed at correctly retelling the events that led to WW2 and its legacy, oozing with honesty, heartfelt homage to his past and an underlying seriousness aimed at those deliberately warping the past, to then come here and read the attack against myself for doing essentially the same with regards to the CCP's well deserved recapture of the vast majority of China. The reality is we learned more about the nature of the creature going by the moniker NemisisCalling than anything else, just as we learned about the nature's of those denying the Soviet People's massive contributions to the defeat of Hitler. Yes, Funny in that sad sort of manner most of us are familiar with.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 18 2020 21:54 utc | 43

@ Peter 39
>So we agree, no India participation in any so-called Quad.
>India may have several inconsequential defense "ties" to the US, to keep the master at bay.
>India's most important "tie" to the US is the shutting off of India's petroleum imports from Iran, the home of India's prospective trade-door to Central Asia, the Iran port of Chalabar.
>Modi's recent promotion of "self-reliance" (in my 24) was probably aimed at the US more than anything, wouldn't you agree?

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 18 2020 21:55 utc | 44

Don Bacon | Jun 18 2020 21:25 utc | 37:

Actually you initially said India “refused” to join it. Now, with goal posts freshly moved, you’ve defined it as something it isn’t (the absence of which was ostensibly communicated by quotation marks), and then instruct us that it isn’t the thing which no one said it is. So helpful; thanks so much.

Meanwhile, India made an affirmative decision to be part of the Quadrilateral Security Dialog, which “formally” exists as whatever it is. I don’t see any reason to make any more or less of it than that.

The troll handbook now prescribes a response from you with further meaningless parsing of words.

Posted by: David G | Jun 18 2020 22:00 utc | 45

Posted by: d dan | Jun 18 2020 20:35 utc | 25

"Actually minor (Major) correction: China's borders are considerably SMALLER than left by the Qinq Dynasty "

You're absolutely correct! I still remember after WW2 attended a 2-3 roomed Chinese school, later transfer to mission school - It's between British Colonial Atlas maps and Chinese's maps. I was stunned, and many of China territory seem to disappear into the thin air. Example Outer Mongolia Stalin forced Chairman Mao Zedong as independent State while retaing Inner Mogolia I also knew Korea was Chinese autonomous administrative division or protectorate. However Sakhalin Island the northern tip of Japan island chains. Now registered as Russian Federation Far East..

I did not made it up! Recently came across a map showing some of the missing pieces, see it yourself.... PLEASE

https://asiapacificcurriculum.ca/learning-module/opium-wars-china

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakhalin#Tributary_of_Qing_dynasty

Thanks for reading.

Posted by: JC | Jun 18 2020 22:03 utc | 46

Xinjiang and Tibet were widely contested areas during Antiquity and the Middle Ages (Xinjiang literally meaning "The New Borderlands"). Tibet itself was a huge empire once (it collapsed from within in a civil war).

But, by the Westphalian era (the modern Nation-State era), it was already internationally accepted that both regions were part of the Chinese Empire.

The modern, Westphalian Nation-State doesn't need to be ethnically homogeneous to have legitimacy; it is a purely geopolitical entity. This is a myth created in Europe post-WWI in order to justify the partition of the Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian empires. Nowadays, only Europeans believe a Nation-State is only legitimate if they are ethnically homogeneous and speak the same language (i.e. the Nation-State as a cultural unit); I guess they keep telling themselves this little story to explain to themselves why their own countries are so small.

The Popular Republic of China officially is a multi-ethnic Nation-State. Even the Han are not a real ethnicity: the Han were just a dynasty that existed during Classical Antiquity and is considered the first prosperous moment of China's History. The conception of the Han as a single, homogeneous ethnicity (a la the Yamato from Japan - which is also not a real ethnicity, as they were a forced fusion of more than 30 different tribes in medieval Japan) was more a KMT thing; Chiang Kaishek was a Han supremacist, and wanted to wipe out all the minorities in China: no wonder all of them opted to fight for the Communists, as they did.

Posted by: vk | Jun 18 2020 22:15 utc | 47

quoting a section from my link @2 with emphasis on the last paragraph under discussion in some of the comments here..

"Be that as it may, India’s foreign policy got co-related to the alliance with the US, and a belief grew, which the present government inherited, that a muscular approach towards China becomes sustainable and that is the language China will come to fear, now that the Sino-American tensions are also cascading.

On the other hand, given the ultra-nationalist fervour sweeping the country, sections of the Indian public also began believing in our own rhetoric that the Indian military is today more than a match for China’s — that, in a conflict in the Himalayas, India can give a ‘bloody nose’ to the Chinese military.

Indeed, such beliefs are delusional. China is a superpower. Although Indian military strength has increased in the recent decades, the fact remains that China has phenomenally modernised its armed forces with technologies that have a force multiplier effect that are way beyond India’s capability.

Nonetheless, delusional thinking is rampant in our country, including among sections of the elite who ought to know better. This is further compounded by the ‘testiness’ in India’s posturing toward China in the period since the Doklam standoff, which the establishment spin had touted as a victory, but experts increasingly debunked as a mere face-saving retreat. "

bold meant for only one sentence near the bottom.. i hope it works..

Posted by: james | Jun 18 2020 22:18 utc | 48

Bugs@27

Maybe you might want to let everyone here know, then, how long it has been since you've been in India. Nice pontification without any background.

Posted by: Digital Spartacus | Jun 18 2020 22:20 utc | 49

d dan | Jun 18 2020 20:35 utc | 25:

And don’t forget the Ryukyu Islands. China hasn’t:

“Chinese general says Okinawa not Japan's”
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/chinese-general-says-okinawa-not-japans

Posted by: David G | Jun 18 2020 22:21 utc | 50

Sorry, my last comment was actually directly in response to JC | Jun 18 2020 22:03 utc | 46.

Posted by: David G | Jun 18 2020 22:24 utc | 51

Literally mentioned it would be great to get one of B's analyses on this topic yesterday.. and bam! What a legend. Cheers.

Posted by: Et Tu | Jun 18 2020 22:26 utc | 52

Nemesiscalling #(

When the CCP rose to central command over all of China, gobbling up power and territory where it could, would China lovers in here agree that this was a fascist takeover, the same way that b has ascribed the situation involving Kashmir under Indian control?

It certainly wasn't a fascist takeover.It was a liberation of miilions of people who had lived under an oligarchic feudalism that enslaved them via the use of thugs and village warlordism. Dissent led to immediate death.

The villagers throughout the lands liberated by the Communist Army were mighty pleased with their new democracy and the leadership and knowledge given them by the Communist Party cadres that helped reorganise from the old fascist oligarchic tyranny. For the first time they had agency and participation in the decision making within their villages and cities.

I urge you to read Ten Mile Inn - mass movement in a Chinese village (by Isabel and David Crook, 1979). They were there researching the process and events in 1947.

In the middle of the civil war between the Chinese Communists and the Guomindang, we floated on a barge down the Grand Canal through no man's land and into the Liberated Areas. As we passed into these vast scattered patches of North China, we entered a world of over 140 million people engaged in the final stages of the struggle against Jiang Jie-shi. The year was 1947, the turning point in the demise of Jiang's twenty years of corrupt and reactionary rule. Feudalism in China was collapsimg, even in the smallest villages.

This grateful acceptance of a liberation by the vast majority of Chinese people becomes abundantly clear as you progress though this book and its accounts of the various elements of redistribution from the accumulators and hoarders to the mass of the people. From goods in warehouses, housing, farm lands and power itself.

This was a remarkable revolution, an extraordinary liberation and major step forward to the democracy and egalitarianism long desired by many throughout the world.

It is not fascism by any stretch of the imagination. It expunged fascism from mainland China in its defeat of both Japan and the Guomindang armies.

It is a democratic form unlike the west and it is definitely Communism. It is definitely democratic with electoral processes embedded in it and it has resulted in one of the greatest liberations of humanity.

Read this book as it is one of the great historical accounts of change and change-making.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 18 2020 22:34 utc | 53

@ David
re: Actually you initially said India “refused” to join it. Now, with goal posts freshly moved, you’ve defined it as something it isn’t

References to The Quad were rife several years ago and the US PACOM changed its name to INDO-PACOM with India as an expected participant, until like a stroke of lightning. . .
>May 23, 2018 -- Indian Navy chief says no need to give military angle to ‘the Quad’ ‘The quad’, a proposed alliance among the United States, India, Japan and Australia to counter a rising Chinese presence in the Indo-Pacific, does not have a military dimension, says Admiral Sunil Lamba
>Aug 7, 2018 -- NEW DELHI: India has stayed away from a joint initiative launched by the United States, Japan and Australia to fund infrastructure projects to counterbalance China’s Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) in the Indo-Pacific region. The decision not to join the US-led trilateral initiative, launched on July 30, is in keeping with India’s emphasis on multipolarity in the Indo-Pacific region and non-bloc security architecture, said people aware of the matter.
>Mar 2019 - The recent statement by the Commander-in Chief of the US Indo-Pacific Command Admiral Phil Davidson at a press conference in Singapore that the ‘Quad’ or the Quadrilateral Security Dialogue between the USA, Australia, India and Japan may need to be shelved was met with a mixed reaction in the regional maritime security discourse.
>May 1, 2019 --US State Dept.... U.S.-Australia-India-Japan Consultations . . .Senior officials from the United States, Australia, India, and Japan met in Bangkok on May 31, 2019 for consultations on their collective efforts to advance a free, open, and inclusive Indo-Pacific. The four nations reaffirmed their shared commitment to preserving and promoting the rules-based order in the region. . . .blah blah blah

So it "doesn't have a military angle" and they can sit around and discuss the price of barley.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 18 2020 22:54 utc | 54

A wonderful read: "India's China War" by Neville Matthews, the London Times correspondent in Delhi at the time.

Posted by: Godfree Roberts | Jun 18 2020 22:55 utc | 55

uncle tungsten @53--

Thanks for the hat-tip! It sounds quite similar to Edgar Snow's Red Star Over China, the 1944 version of which can be freely downloaded at the link, the original was published in 1937. Snow travelled with the Red Army during 1936 and often interviewed Mao and Chou and recorded their account of the Long March. I got a used copy just after Nixon visited China and was very impressed as I'd already read Buck's The Good Earth. Ten Mile Inn is only available for a short borrow at that same site, unfortunately, although it can be found for under $5 through a libris.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 18 2020 22:59 utc | 56

Don Bacon

The Quad mainly consists of joint naval exercises. Exercise Malabar. Australia takes part in them so they are in the news here when they're on.
The wikipedia page probably covers it pretty well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadrilateral_Security_Dialogue

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 18 2020 23:10 utc | 57

Don Bacon | Jun 18 2020 22:54 utc | 54:

“… the US PACOM changed its name to INDO-PACOM with India as an expected participant …”

Right, the other participant obviously being the republic of Pacifica.

Or maybe both parts of the name refer to the oceans, and metonymously to the regions the U.S seeks to dominate with that “combatant command”.

Posted by: David G | Jun 18 2020 23:20 utc | 58

Kadath '20

"Not sure why YouTube would put a bunch of videos by Z-listers as the top results"

To be sure, just ask Google: who owns Youtube?

Posted by: Piero Colombo | Jun 18 2020 23:36 utc | 59

karlof1 @ 6, Just Me @ 21:

Reading both your comments and the links they contain, I had a quick look online for more information and found this link which shows that even some researchers in India are NOT convinced that the genetic research they did supports whatever A L Chavda in his "Aryan Invasion Myth ..." book claims it supports.

From what I understand, the Indus Valley civilisation was one of the largest ancient civilisations by physical area and possibly extended as far north as the Amu Darya river which itself extends into Uzbekistan from Afghanistan and Turkmenistan and into what remains of the Aral sea. The civilisation had contacts with civilisations in Sumer and Elam (in modern southwest Iran; the Elamite language has been tentatively linked to Dravidian languages by some linguists) so it is possible that two-way migration flows occurred between these civilisations at different periods through their existence, either by land, sea or both.

If the Indus Valley civilisation extended far north into Central Asia, then it is completely possible for steppe peoples speaking early Indo-European dialects on the northern borders to have moved into the civilisation's territories and then moved gradually down south, at the same they were moving into Europe. The modern distribution of the Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a and its derivatives might be one result of these movements.

I would suggest Just Me has hit the nail on the head in suggesting that Chavda's work reads like Hindu nationalism. It does seem that the biggest supporters of the supposedly discredited Aryan Invasion Theory and its modern equivalent the Aryan Migration Theory are themselves Hindu nationalists.

Posted by: Jen | Jun 19 2020 0:02 utc | 60

Posted by: Piero Colombo | Jun 18 2020 23:36 utc | 58 To be sure, just ask Google: who owns Youtube?

More importantly, who assisted in the creation of Google? The CIA. Do a Google (ironically) search on "CIA created Google". Should come at or near the top.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 19 2020 0:25 utc | 61

And if you think 2020 wasn't bad enough, and now the possibility of a war between China and India, two nuclear powers...wait for it...

Kim Jong Un’s Well-Timed ‘Surprise’ Portends Another Nuke Crisis

That's right - yet *another* crisis between two nuclear powers (three if you count China - which you should.) China, under the current pressures from the US, is not likely to be forgiving to the US in a new round of US-NK crisis.


All of this foretells a very dangerous few weeks or months to come. If North Korea were to test an ICBM, Trump would lose one of the signature diplomatic accomplishments he loves to brag about time and time again. It stands to reason Trump would take great offense to such a move, knowing the Biden campaign would use the launch as ammo in the campaign. And that can only mean one thing: Trump getting ultra-aggressive in trying to get North Korea to heel. In the pressure cooker that is a U.S. presidential election, there is no telling what Trump will say or do to push back against North Korea’s act of defiance.

Welcome to the North Korea crisis of 2020. North Korea warned us it was coming.

2020 is beginning to look like a "perfect storm" year.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 19 2020 0:30 utc | 62

karlof1 #55

Thank you for the Red Star Over China link. Just downloaded that and I look forward to comparing the earlier decade with that described by Isabel and David Crook.

We in parts of the west (and presumably parts of the east) live in a dense atmosphere of coercive propaganda and elite persistence in self preservation at all costs. Vigilance and the persistence of the people in maintaining a form of functional democracy is critical to our survival. To fail at that maintenance of democratic access to civil power sharing is exemplified in the current circumstances in UKUSA, perhaps Malaysia - and I am sure we all can point to examples. It is vital to persist lest the oligarchy of accumulators thoroughly ratf#k our world.

These thieves of both the material elements of the world and especially our spirit of freedom from unwarranted violence against our race, our health, our gender, our knowledge, our productivity, our common wellbeing, must be resisted and described and stripped of their coercive power. That is what happened in China, Cuba, Vietnam, Russia, and so on. The opportunist thieves and accumulators stole foreign 'free' lands and murdered the indigenous resistance. I trust we have all learned much from that dark history and can turn that ugly knowledge into a better world.

My issue with Nemesiscalling is one of lack of solidarity. Through human solidarity and knowledge we can transform our sad and grand histories and knowledge into a better existence. It takes awareness, persistence and the love of freedom to respect each other.

But I am off topic and I would like to point out a peculiar oddity in b's map where it describes the northern part of Kashmir as 'Pak Occupied Kashmir' while the southern part is Jammu & Kashmir - not Indian occupied. I always understood that the entire Kashmir state was bent on independence or was that just the dream of the oligarch thief that b refers to as Maharaja Hari Singh. It appears the people lost out to thieving religious manipulators and their priests/oligarchs. Now Modi is repeating the crime against humanity with his lying evil.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 19 2020 0:58 utc | 63

re
uncle tungsten | Jun 18 2020 22:34 utc | 53
the China of Mao Zedong & Zhou Enlai, two of the greatest humans of the 20th century, is a very different nation than that of Xi Jinping, who came from one of those families of mandarin elite who had supported feudalism until in deference to the way the wind was blowing, they switched sides to the PLA late in the revolution.
During the cultural revolution not only was Xi's father sent to a camp for re-education, Xi himself was banished to a cave in Yanchuan.

After Mao died, then came the "Gang of Four" show trials resulting in a purge which turned the tables on socialism in favour of proto-capitalism under Deng. Xi, by that time was in Fujian province a south eastern state which by way of the islands off its coast shares a boundary with Fujian province Taiwan.
Xi utilised his connections with Taiwan's KMT gangsters to foster development in Fujian eventually becoming governor. After that he was promoted to governor and Party Secretary of Zhejiang, the arriviste was on his way.

Some old school socialists in the Party had hoped that Li Keqiang from a small rural village & definitely a graduate of the proletariat, a capable economist and honest negotiator could overcome Xi's momentum but it was not to be. Xi who considers himself as much an emperor as Erdogan considers himself Sultan, gained control for life thanks to a relaxed attitude towards corruption in Party members who gave Xi their support.

You live in the Pacific and must have seen incidents by China attempting to pervert political systems that are little different than the antics of england & amerika.
China is correctly pissed at the weak arsed effort by India to do as amerika instructs, but that doesn't mean any of us can be blind to China's imperial ambitions. For at least the next 50 years, politicians in our part of the world are going to have to tread very carefully if they are to avoid getting their nation caught up in either side of a conflict between large imperialist states.

Posted by: A User | Jun 19 2020 1:03 utc | 64

Richard Steven Hack #61

2020 is beginning to look like a "perfect storm" year.

And to think that for a small few $million and some token stretched out series of 'relaxing' sanctions Trump could have achieved a dream run with one major peace agreement to wave up Biden's dribbling nose.

But no. Pompeo scuttled it and the class (coven?) of '86 West Pointers reinforced the scuttle. Bolt-on likely helped.

Trump has no marbles in this game and his family coven were too busy doing deals with Israel to save their dad as President. Morons all.

I guess if Trump assumes the mantle Captain Queeg AND is able to prevent a rerun of the Caine mutiny, he might succeed. But then that class of '86 has him by the short and curlies IMO.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 19 2020 1:14 utc | 65

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 19 2020 1:14 utc | 64

Speaking of "morons all"...

The incumbent President of the United States of America ran now-banned Facebook ads loaded with Nazi references

They might be reaching with the "88" reference, but the red symbol might be accurate. This *could* be conspiracy theory, but given Trump's nature and his supporters' nature, probably not.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 19 2020 1:24 utc | 66

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 18 2020 22:34 utc | 53

The irony is the CCP has been whitewashing those feudal robber barons called the KMT for the sake of reunification PR. The truth was the KMT and whatever local warlords were pretty much hated all over China for their brutality and callousness, to the point people actually preferred Japanese rule.

This also explains why the KMT forces were so incompetent: Fear of the KMT wasn't enough to dissuade forcibly recruited KMT conscripts who figured out they could have a better life just by surrendering to the CCP. By the end stages of the war, the CCP was covering ground at an incredible pace despite hostile terrain in west and south China; which was impossible unless the locals are welcoming them with open arms.

Posted by: JW | Jun 19 2020 1:25 utc | 67

A User #63

Thanks and I agree, NOW is very different to THEN.
But the revolution in China was genuine and it was never fascist.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 19 2020 1:27 utc | 68

I doubt any escalation will happen especially when both sides agree to NOT use guns. IMO, the spark for the skirmish is not the CPEC but, a hydro-electrical dam project on a major waterway that runs through India and Bangladesh.

Posted by: Ian2 | Jun 19 2020 1:44 utc | 69

Richard Steven Hack | Jun 19 2020 0:30 utc | 61:

To add to the 'perfect storm', apparently there's a growing "alliance" forming against Turkey and their ambitions in Libya.

Posted by: Ian2 | Jun 19 2020 1:51 utc | 70

Most western politicians are simply a commodity that is bought and sold. Chinese ... like the saying goes - when in Rome, do as the Romans do. Waste of time blaming corrupt politicians on the Chinese. I don't see much difference between local or US based multinationals or the Chinese buying the fuckers. If China wants to compete, it has to out bid the compition.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 19 2020 1:54 utc | 71

Ian2 68

Hydro electric gives continuity of water supply rather than flood and famine.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 19 2020 2:05 utc | 72

Nemesiscalling @ 9 -- "There is no proof anywhere I can see of Trump's fingerprints. If anything, his willingness to mediate speaks volumes that he is standing by his oath to not intervene in quarrels among nations, except as a fair-minded observer. Those who insist otherwise are not looking closely at the facts on the ground."

"no proof"? Yes, no proof available to us today. Wait 50 years for White House documents to be declassified, and then we'll see about truth.

"facts on the ground"? [1] The US instigated, financed, organised, promoted the Hong Kong rioting, and then Trump offered to mediate. [2] The US made an offer that Indian leadership cannot refuse, and India began acting up against China. Then Trump offers to mediate. Let's wait 50 years for docs to prove / disprove these statements.

"standing by his oath"? That from a man whose negotiating technique is to start with chaos, shamelessly contradicting himself, confusing his enemies, even his friends, and then grabbing what is pried loose in the chaos!!! Trump does make oaths. But keeping them? Too early to tell. Let history tell his story.

Posted by: kiwiklown | Jun 19 2020 2:18 utc | 73

Wait 50 years for White House documents to be declassified, and then we'll see about truth.
You may just be trading antibiotics to the tribe in the next valley for arrow heads.

Posted by: Duncan Idaho | Jun 19 2020 2:29 utc | 74

re Peter AU1 | Jun 19 2020 1:54 utc | 70
Sorry Peter but that is a very naive attitude, especially given China's preference for conservative politicians in everyone else's country.
I dunno if it is because they are more corruptible or just more ready to do as they are told but in the last two decades one of the chief reasons both Oz & Aotearoa have been dominated by conservative governments has been China's funding of the fuckers.
But the real problem will come when an issue arises where China and say Australia do not have the same interests, they are diametrically opposed say on a resource extraction issue. Oz has finally elected pols who decide that ripping everything outta the ground asap is not in Australians'best interest, China on the other hand wants it now when costs are less even though environmental controls are lacking.
In that situation Oz or Aotearoa for that matter could end up in a real mess. This is why wholesale flogging off of resources & the corporations who hold those resource rights is an abomination.

Posted by: A User | Jun 19 2020 2:31 utc | 75

karlof1 @ 14 -- ".... the island where the Gangsters fled to--Gangsters being the term used to describe Chiang Kai-shek by those from the Outlaw US Empire who knew him best: Generals Stimson, Marshall and Stillwell..."

Today's Taiwan was where the traitors fled, with a mountain of war loot, museum treasures, gold stolen from the Chinese nation, to push aside the Taiwanese island's native First Nation people. For the US to fight Mao and the Chinese nation alongside known gangsters, and then to support said gangsters until today speaks of depravity. But those of us who read only the anglozio history will never know China's and the Chinese people's point of view. And that is why a well-read, knowledgeable, deep-thinking person such as karlofi1 is "challenged" by people who think sticks and stones an argument make.

Posted by: kiwiklown | Jun 19 2020 2:34 utc | 76

re Peter AU1 | Jun 19 2020 2:05 utc | 71 who reckoned :
Hydro electric gives continuity of water supply rather than flood and famine."

There is no reason for you to be aware of devastation wreaked on the Lakes of Central Otago & Southland to create the Manapouri hydro system, just to provide sufficient energy for an aluminium smelter at Bluff, a smelter for the bauxite extracted from the Yirrakala community's traditional lands - whitefella 'development'. I have been up close and worked with people at both ends of that inexcusable devastation. However I would have thought you would have been cognisant of the furore over the Franklin River hydro development in Tassie.

Or much more recently the concern of Sudan & Egypt about Ethiopia's hydro scheme. War has been an option. Hydro dams cause havoc with established agriculture and while one can call Egypt a hypocrite after the devastation caused by Egypt's Aswan dam in the early 60's, that doesn't address the destruction ordinary people will suffer.
Large hydro schemes are never an environmentally sound means to extract energy. IMO they are the worst after coal or oil fired generation.
I'm not tryin to have a go at you Peter its good to see you here & I hope both you and your wife are well.

Posted by: A User | Jun 19 2020 2:54 utc | 77

vk @ 17 -- "Nowadays, Tibet grows ten times faster than the rest of China. It was a very good deal to the Tibetan people (except, of course, the Dalai Lama himself and his feudal court).

There are two histories. There are many history books about the 1 percenters -- kings, wars, empires, their glory. There are few history books on the 99 percenters -- their struggles, their hardship. The people accept CCP leadership because they serve the needs of the 99% ( for English speakers, go read Jeff Brown ). That is why "deplorable" Tibetans continue to accept CCP leadership. But that is not what the CIA wants the West to hear. That is why poorly-read Westerners swallow the Tibet and the Uyghur and the Hong Kong and the Taiwan lies so much so that they would mock a more knowledgeable person. But then, stupid is as stupid does, as Forrest Gump might have once said.


Peter AU1 @ 18 -- "Just another dumb country that thought working with the CIA made them invulnerable."

Just look at the fake of a Dalai Lama. Fake smile. Fake face. Fake stoop. Just another CIA asset to be wheeled out against China when needed.


William Gruff @ 19 -- "There is no parallel, and if you try to pretend that you give a shit about anyone living in Tibet or Xinjiang then everyone will just laugh at you.

Wow, this makes it three in a row of my favourite commenters here. But stupid does not know they are stupid. Or to be kinder, ignorance does not know ignorance, even if they are well-meaning. Unless they are trolls?

Posted by: kiwiklown | Jun 19 2020 3:04 utc | 78

@53 Uncle

Thank you for the reading suggestion and the thoughtful post.

Both yours and vk's seem to share the similar theme that Tibet was a brutal feudalist kingdom and they are grateful to now be liberated.

Pardon me, but that does sound a little like neocon R2P talk to me.

Substitute Afghanistan for Tibet and U.S.S.R or U.S. for China and, once again, the parallels are eery.

That being said, it's China's backyard (and Afghanistan certainly wasn't in ours) and we shouldn't be involved except as a mediator in this Indian-Chinese affair.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jun 19 2020 3:23 utc | 79

A User

I have read about Downer as foreign minister bugging the East Timour embassy in the guise of aid then receiving a well paid consultancy position from woodside. There are many more like it. There was one case of an oz politician taking a bribe from a Chinese business that was much reported on.
Under the current McCarthy type times, if corruption of Australian corruption was a big thing, it would be much more reported on.
My son has started buying some stock and so forth and his work is agricultural so I keep an eye on what China is and is not buying.
As Australia has turned anti China with the advent of the Trump admin there is a number of things they have stopped buying and that is being added to all the time. Every time oz does its US good, China bad megaphone stunt, China cuts something else from the list.
Perhaps this sounds like naive pro china stuff, but for me, with the McCarthy type anti China sentiment in oz at the moment, if there was more corruption in which China was involved, it would be heralded with trumpets and be swamping the MSM news.
To believe the constant anti china shit that is put forth on oz media, I would also have to believe the Elliot Higgens version of the mh17 shootdown.

Posted by: Peter AU | Jun 19 2020 3:25 utc | 80

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jun 19 2020 3:23 utc | 78 we shouldn't be involved except as a mediator in this Indian-Chinese affair.

Here's a question for the class: Would you accept Russia as a mediator? :-)

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 19 2020 3:28 utc | 81

Talking about dams and Modi's fascists, I wonder if Arundhati Roy, The God-ess Of Small Things (like wholesale dispossession of paupers in India) has expressed an opinion about Modi's China-busting daydream?

I can't shake the feeling that Modi, being a right-wing crank, has 'forgotten' that China has been preparing for war with Christianity's greedy White mass-murdering Satanists for more than 50 years. Would he be surprised if China squelched India's skirmish specialists in fewer than 14 days?

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jun 19 2020 3:39 utc | 82

@43 Karlof1

How was that an attack? That I correctly chided you for lecturing me on China's moral superiority in the game of nations.

How thin-skinned you are.

And that is an attack.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jun 19 2020 3:39 utc | 83

Thucydides trap do not apply in this situation , china is not athens and US is not sparta..

china and russia allied is FAR WORSE equation to US empire , a dying naval empire who have too many military commitment outside it's land.

more like the old carthage naval and trading empire get trashed by rising roman military juggernaut.. with US playing as corrupt and decadent carthage

Posted by: milomilo | Jun 19 2020 3:46 utc | 84

@ Peter 56
re: The Quad mainly consists of joint naval exercises. Exercise Malabar. Australia takes part in them so they are in the news here when they're on.
>The Quad doesn't exist militarily.
>Asia Times:
Australia last participated in Malabar in 2007. ...Australian diplomats continue to maintain that “the Quad” is simply a consultation mechanism. . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 19 2020 3:47 utc | 85

According to this, Hindus ruled Kashmir until Muslim conquest in the 15th century. Muslims then ruled for the next five while India suffered under British rule.

Is that enough food for ya R2Pers and other "restorative" map enthusiasts.

Take it back, Modi! /sarc

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jun 19 2020 3:49 utc | 86

@james and all , why you all engage with nemesiscalling ? his past posts showed he is nothing more than western MSM narrative peddlers and even his discussion here reflect his bias / anti china post.

tibetian kingdom have excessive cruelty , even against the christian missionaries who they tortured and then put into leeches filled well..

that they got bombed by chinese bombers are par for the course.. cruel nations will get punished by other nations who God use as hammer.. same thing will come to US with it's endless murders and pervertion of God's name

Posted by: milomilo | Jun 19 2020 3:49 utc | 87

Poke the dragon, and step back. Yahoo:

Sydney (AFP) - Australia's prime minister said Friday his country was under a broad cyberattack from a "state-based actor" targeting government, public services and businesses, with suspicions falling on China.
Warning Australians of "specific risks" and an increased frequency of attacks, Scott Morrison told a hastily organised press conference that a range of sensitive institutions had been hit.
"This activity is targeting Australian organisations across a range of sectors, including all levels of government, industry, political organisations, education, health, essential service providers and operators of other critical infrastructure," he said. . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 19 2020 3:53 utc | 88

Apologies for posting so many comments and not bundling them...

When I mentioned the Thucydides Trap, I meant that China has not been able to resist the temptation to empire and so is employing the same ruthlessness as its enemy in the existing U.S.-led empire.

To be caught in the trap is to be barreling headlong into confrontation. It is escalation and no signs of weakness. It seems the Indians are no Melians, however. The U.S. is winning the containment-war. China can either respect Modi or turn the whole card table over.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jun 19 2020 3:59 utc | 89

@86 milomilo

Did they also unplug the incubator machines and give their monk-warriors viagra to rape American missionaries?

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jun 19 2020 4:02 utc | 90

@ 86 milomilo... i like giving people the benefit of the doubt time and time again until a certain line is crossed.. we all have to learn to live together.. cheers..

Posted by: james | Jun 19 2020 4:03 utc | 91

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jun 19 2020 3:59 utc | 88 The U.S. is winning the containment-war.

I'm just gonna laugh at that one.

And apparently, no, he wouldn't accept Russia as a mediator.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 19 2020 4:21 utc | 92

@ NC 88
I see little or no similarity between China and the US, considering especially that (1) China has been around for 5,000 years, in and out of empire and (2) the US in its short life has engaged in many, many domestic and foreign wars and gained territory thereby. China has not, and (3) China does not meddle in other countries' internal affairs and regime change as the US does and (4) China does not have, and may never have, 300 foreign bases and 'combatant commands' worldwide as the US does.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 19 2020 4:22 utc | 93

Amazing how much one can learn about the history of China from numerous posters here, even when their views are divergent. After a bit of background reading I came across this interesting titbit on wiki of all places:

(Rama) Mitter has observed that, ironically, today's China is closer to Chiang's vision than to Mao Zedong's. He argues that the Communists, since the 1980s, have essentially created the state envisioned by Chiang in the 1930s. Mitter concludes by writing that "one can imagine Chiang Kai-shek's ghost wandering round China today nodding in approval, while Mao's ghost follows behind him, moaning at the destruction of his vision".

Posted by: krypton | Jun 19 2020 5:05 utc | 94

vk @ 47 -- "Chiang Kaishek was a Han supremacist, and wanted to wipe out all the minorities in China: no wonder all of them opted to fight for the Communists, as they did."

Interesting. So that makes the gangster a racist Han who thought he was a patriot, but in actuality, a traitor to the nation of China. Guess that's why the US found him useful against China.

Posted by: kiwiklown | Jun 19 2020 5:09 utc | 95

@93

That should be ‘Rana’ Mitter.

Posted by: krypton | Jun 19 2020 5:25 utc | 96

From "the Hindu" (basically communist) today: Ladakh face-off: Satellite images show Chinese activity at Galwan before clash
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ladakh-face-off-satellite-images-show-chinese-activity-at-galwan-before-clasah/article31866359.ece

PM Modi is tarred as a nationalistic fascist here by too many for Kashmir while Pres. Xi Jinping is heralded as a global demi god- forgetting Xinjiang, Hong Kong, Taiwan etc.. In gymnastics that would be a once in a lifetime split. One person managed to up PM Imran Khan of Pakistan as some sort of enlightened liberal- Ask the Balochi's.

The Chinese are fine; the question is whether the PLA and CCP have fine leaders. They surely have an efficient technocratic setup, but so had the Nazis with their Autobahns and Volkswagens. Then came Sudentenland etc.
Life is not only about materialism folks..

Posted by: Antonym | Jun 19 2020 5:26 utc | 97

uncle tungsten @ 53 -- "It certainly wasn't a fascist takeover.It was a liberation of miilions of people who had lived under an oligarchic feudalism that enslaved them via the use of thugs and village warlordism. Dissent led to immediate death."

The people's experience of the CCP is generally positive, but they do not think to write history books for the West.

The 1 percenters' point of view is vitriolic: they lost their lands, warehouses, slaves, power, etc. So they run to the West to become 'experts' speaking ill of the CCP to an adoring audience, hoping to land a tenured professorship, or to work in some CIA-funded spook shop. Russia has those types. Cuba too.

It is deplorable how uneducated Westerners sound like echo chambers -- loud but empty -- not knowing that they further the CIA's cause by repeating bunkum.

Posted by: kiwiklown | Jun 19 2020 5:29 utc | 98

Looks like I was wrong about Australia taking part in Malabar each year.

2018

In the aftermath of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to China, India once again refused Australia’s bid to participate in the 2018 Malabar exercises. The Malabar exercises were first established in 1992 between India and the United States, but due to tensions arising from India’s nuclearization in 1998, it became an annual feature only in 2002. The bilateral exercises evolved from basic naval drills to include aircraft carriers in 2005 and added anti-piracy drills and search and rescue with a U.S. strike group and Coast Guard ships from both countries in 2006.

https://thediplomat.com/2018/05/india-keeps-australia-out-of-the-malabar-exercise-again/

2018

Australia has been excluded from a major multilateral naval exercise in the Indo-Pacific.

For three years, Australian officials have been lobbying to take part in the annual Malabar Exercise - but India has refused, under pressure from China.

The war-gaming exercise includes the US and Japan and will take place off Guam this June.


https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/worldtoday/india-blocks-australia-from-malabar-naval-exercise/9704084

2019

Involving Australia in the Malabar exercises would send a political message, which India is not prepared to do. But there is no pressure from China to keep Australia out of the exercises with the U.S. and Japan, a defence source said on Monday.

“If we do a quad exercise, it has political messaging. So what is the big value in having that exercise as opposed to Malabar? So we strengthen the bilateral engagement, focus on practical engagement, have closer dialogue bilaterally and plurilaterally with Australia,” the defence source said on Australia’s request to be part of the trilateral Malabar exercise involving India, Japan and the U.S.


https://www.thehindu.com


2020

In a significant development that has been through multiple rounds of headlines and controversy, India might be finally getting ready to invite Australia to the Malabar naval exercise, according to media reports. The next edition of the exercise is scheduled to take place around July or August this year.

The question of inviting Australia to the exercise, which currently includes India, Japan and the United States, has been controversial. India has for several years resisted bringing Australia on board, reportedly because of possible negative reactions from China. The fact is that the first and only time Australia has been part of this exercise was in 2007, when both Australia and Singapore were invited to join India, Japan and the United States.

Nonetheless, if India finally agrees to invite Australia for the 2020 Malabar naval exercises, it will be a welcome break and would suggest the growing seriousness and synergy among four key Indo-Pacific powers – Australia, India, Japan, and the United States.


https://thediplomat.com/2020/02/will-india-now-finally-invite-australia-to-the-malabar-exercise/

This is what the Indian Navy have to say about it.
https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/content/exercise-malabar-2019

The 23rd edition of the Trilateral Maritime Exercise MALABAR, is scheduled between the navies of India, Japan and USA from 26 September to 04 October 2019 off the coast of Japan. Two frontline indigenously designed and built Indian Naval Ships, the Multipurpose Guided Missile Frigate Sahyadri and ASW Corvette Kiltan, with Rear Admiral Suraj Berry, Flag Officer Commanding Eastern Fleet embarked onboard, arrived at Sasebo on 25 September 2019, to participate in the Exercise. In addition to the ships, a 'P8I' Long Range Maritime Patrol Aircraft, also arrived in Japan for the Exercise. The US Navy is being represented by USS McCampbell, a Los Angeles-Class Attack Submarine and a 'P8A' Long Range Maritime Patrol Aircraft. The JMSDF would be participating with its Izumo Class Helicopter Destroyer JS Kaga, Guided Missile Destroyers JS Samidare and Choukai and a 'P1' Long Range Maritime Patrol Aircraft.

MALABAR 2019 would endeavour to further strengthen India - Japan - US Naval cooperation and enhance interoperability, based on shared values and principles. The Exercise would encompass conduct of complex maritime operations in the surface, sub-surface and air domains, and focus on Anti-Submarine Warfare, Anti-Air and Anti-Surface Firings, Maritime Interdiction Operations including Visit Board Search and Seizure and tactical scenario based Exercise at Sea. In addition, the partner navies would conduct official protocol visits, professional interactions including Subject Matter Expert Exchanges, reciprocal ship visits, sports fixtures and social events during the harbour phase.

Participation of Indian Navy ships and aircraft in the exercise would significantly bolster the strong maritime bonds of friendship between the three countries and contribute to security and stability in the region.


Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 19 2020 5:47 utc | 99

@james , thats what i like about you , you tried to engage in civil discussion but when the troll move to insult and nonsense maybe time to stop responding and trying to keep up with his constantly moving goalposts ? lol

btw our favorite lame duck colonel lang having a melt down of massive proportion when his beloved confederate statues being taken down one by one.. He allowed an obvious sicko to post a very nasty arti cle recommemding US intelligence services 'silently' aka covertly kill protesters's leaders (as if there is one except in tucker carlson's mind).. the article was up for few days before it is removed..

that such article allowed to be published on SST indicate's Patrik Lang's state of mind
'

Posted by: milomilo | Jun 19 2020 5:51 utc | 100

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