Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 28, 2020

The MoA Week In Review - Open Thread 2020-51

Last week's posts at Moon of Alabama:

Prof Francois Balloux @BallouxFrancois - 20:26 UTC · Jun 27, 2020
Newspaper headlines from the the 1918/19 influenza pandemic. A furious debate about masks raged throughout the 1918/19 winter in San Francisco, with arguments essentially indistinguishable from those populating my Twitter feed
(for more info see:
> The New York Times publication that Russia allegedly offered secretly bounties to Afghan militants for killing coalition forces was fabricated by the US intelligence agencies, Russia’s Foreign Ministry told TASS on Saturday.
The Russian Foreign Ministry pointed to US intelligence agencies’ involvement in Afghan drug trafficking.

"Should we speak about facts - moreover, well-known [facts], it has not long been a secret in Afghanistan that members of the US intelligence community are involved in drug trafficking, cash payments to militants for letting transport convoys pass through, kickbacks from contracts implementing various projects paid by American taxpayers. The list of their actions can be continued if you want," the ministry said.
"We can understand their feelings as they do not want to be deprived of the above mentioned sources of the off-the-books income," the ministry stressed. <

Office of the DNI @ODNIgov - 3:19 UTC · 28 Jun 2020
Statement by DNI Ratcliffe: "I have confirmed that neither the President nor the Vice President were ever briefed on any intelligence alleged by the New York Times in its reporting yesterday." (1/2)
"The White House statement addressing this issue earlier today, which denied such a briefing occurred, was accurate. The New York Times reporting, and all other subsequent news reports about such an alleged briefing are inaccurate.” (2/2)

Other issues:


The mortality rate of hospitalized Covid-19 patients is declining in Italy as well as in England. The reasons are unknown. My hunch is that by now doctors have learned much more about the disease's progression (cytokine storm, blood clotting) and how to manage it. The case load in both countries has also declined leaving more time for individual cases. This is really good news. The chances to find a good vaccine are not great. This makes good disease management and the right mix of medications for all the problems the virus causes even more important. An example is this man who endured more than two months of ventilation and survived!

SARS-CoV-2 timeline:

This well conducted study from Italy on old sewage samples found that SARS-CoV-2 was in Italy as early as December 18. In contrast this not peer reviewed study from Spain claims that SARS-CoV-2 has been found in March 2019 sewage samples from Barcelona. Several media have picked up on that. It contradicts the analysis of sequenced virus genomes which say that the virus jumped onto humans only in November 2019. There is only one sample in the study that shows partial virus debris and it is not even specific for SARS-CoV-2. I therefore agree with this comment:

Alan McNally @alanmcn1 - 22:14 UTC · Jun 26, 2020
They are using a PCR target shown to have Toss of a coin specificity and their amplifications are right on borderline. This is another example of importance of peer review I am afraid. This is not true!

Pandemic consequences:

737 MAX:

Use as open thread ...

Posted by b on June 28, 2020 at 12:50 UTC | Permalink

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Mr Gruff- As your Attorney I'd like to advise you to NEVER, as in don't ever, talk about shooting people, especially on a public forum. It's just plain ignorant to do so. You make yourself, and all responsible owners look foolish.

There are three main approaches to weapon use and owning-
1- Target, sport, skeet recreational target use.
2- Hunting
3- Defense

I firmly believe that anyone choosing to own a firearm should train in self-defense/martial skill for a minimum of 3 yrs. One needs to learn timing, distance, coordination and be pressure tested to as close to reality that a true violent encounter entails.

Martial Traditions nearly all train from empty hand techniques and then progress to weapons- stick/staff/edged weapons in increasing ranges. Zen in the Art of Archery is an outstanding read about refining Martial Spirit and self growth. One doesn't need to advertise their beliefs, especially when it comes to violence. You are either a force for good or you are not- Martial Spirit doesn't fuck around with bravado.

An interesting story about the Most Dangerous Man in the Room-


When they kick at your front door
How you gonna come?
With your hands on your head
Or on the trigger of your gun?
When the law break in
How you gonna go?
Shot down on the pavement
Or waiting in death row
You can crush us
You can bruise us
But you'd have to answer to
Oh, the guns of Brixton
The money feels good
And your life you like it well
But surely your time will come
As in heaven, as in hell
You see, he feels like Ivan
Born under the Brixton sun
His game is called survivin'
At the end of "The Harder They Come"
You know it means no mercy
They caught him with a gun
No need for the Black Maria
Goodbye to the Brixton sun
You can crush us
You can bruise us
But you'll have to answer to
oh, the guns of Brixton

Posted by: CitizenX | Jun 30 2020 19:56 utc | 301

dh @296--

Population movements and competition over resources are very longstanding aspects of human history and were well known by Eurasians. That the Spanish and Portuguese knew what they were about to do was against God's Law is proven by the need to devise the series of Papal Bulls that began with the Treaty of Alcáçovas in 1479, followed by the main culprit, Treaty of Tordesillas in 1494, and lastly by the Treaty of Zaragoza in 1529, all of which can be found at the main link provided. The reasoning followed was the same that provided for the expulsion of Jews and Muslims from Iberia--they weren't Christians and thus a form of sub-human not allowed all the rights to which only Christians were entitled.

The root "logic" of those Bulls still exists within Western jurisprudence and need to be uprooted for all time. It made no difference to other Christians that they were omitted in the Bulls as they just adopted them for themselves. The grand crimes I describe @294 are also crimes made by Christendom that also have yet to be formally admitted/confessed and atoned for. All the wealth displayed at the Vatican is stolen, as is that on display at Europe's Grand Palaces and Imperial Cities--aside from the Kremlin--and the fundamental infrastructure and wealth accumulated of/by Capitalism constructed/provided by slaves.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 30 2020 19:57 utc | 302

The point is, karlof1@295, Putin has just as many (though different) very evident black marks to elaborate with respect to Stalin's and others' not so praiseworthy actions before the Nazis invaded - some that he has spelled out in his recent interview and some he hasn't. You have enlightened us previously on the US unsavory ones, so I am not surprised by what you spell out here. Putin gave us a truthful telling of how the Nazis performed - he left out a lot about the shortcomings of pre-war Russia. As I said, all nations had those - the US was not exceptional in this. Russia demonstrated that its country and its people, much as they did with Napoleon back in the day, could rise to the occasion, and they did.

I am saying we haven't yet truly been tested. Not the way Russia was. Its people had to choose between the shoddy regime they suffered under and the more threatening Nazi madness. It was a choice, and they chose well. It's a good example to remember.

We did something a little like that choosing Trump over Clinton, though that has not turned out as well as we'd have hoped. We chose Obama for the same reason, but he betrayed the people. It's not the American people who are at fault. It's those who have deliberately and for their own gain corrupted the system -- whenever they did!

Posted by: juliania | Jun 30 2020 20:00 utc | 303

@302 Oh the Spanish Conquistadores were the worst of the lot. The Pope probably didn't know what people like Cortes, Alvarado and Pisarro were up to in MesoAmerica and Peru. But the Spanish king was happy to get the gold.

My point was that violent competition predates the more recent concept of morality by thousands of years.

Posted by: dh | Jun 30 2020 20:06 utc | 304

Blue Dotterel @299--

Yes, that's one of the "objections" I knew about but didn't include. But IMO, the series of Papal Bulls show beyond doubt that the reason for their being was to justify the crimes to be committed, and that the Home Invasion of the Western Hemisphere and the Genocide that accompanied it was premeditated. IMO, it's that salient, emphasized fact that most deny or are ignorant about, and why I took the Home Invasion topic in that direction.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 30 2020 20:06 utc | 305

dh, your comment at 296 is well taken. I've always been amazed at the bloody history of such a tiny country as Great Britain, a subject which as a colony country New Zealand school children in my day studied much more than we did our own island history. (I'm of a mixed heritage, I am proud to say, and much of my own family history was better kept in the oral tradition than it was by my European forebears.)

Currently, the mayor of Santa Fe is tiptoeing over the hot coals of Spanish/Pueblo/Anglo conflicts with respect to the healing of old wounds and the sorting out of an amalgamated historical record that does justice to all claims. I believe it can be done through, as Putin recommends on the larger scene, continuing dialogue among all involved citizens. And if they do it honestly and carefully, something rather wonderful could well, like a phoenix, be born from the ashes of the old way of seeing things. I'd like to see them follow Putin's example in emphasizing the good aspects and forgiving the bad. It's the only way forward.

Posted by: juliania | Jun 30 2020 20:17 utc | 306

dh @304--

Thanks for your further reply. It provides yet another admittedly speculative topic: Will the human animal ever transcend its animalness and become a peaceful being governed by ethics and morality?

juliania @303--

True, the USA has yet to be tested like the Russians were on four occasions, one of which resulted in their being dominated for @200 years. But then in moving back Eastward to make their nation Continental in scope, Russians didn't engage in genocidal land theft, although their treatment of Inuit and other Native Alaskans says they weren't much different from any other European.

Home Invasion is a good metaphor/analogy when it comes to discussing invading sovereignty--an act forbidden by the UN Charter and thus by the US Constitution yet is practiced daily by the Outlaw US Empire. Even in its science fiction, US-based writers continue to invade the sovereignty of other peoples despite its being against the #1 Prime Directive in one very famous TV and Film series.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 30 2020 20:27 utc | 307

The idea of reparations for slavery isn't necessarily a bad one, but it should be subject to careful consideration lest it result in much more damage than good.

First consideration should be that the great majority of the American population had never owned slaves, nor had their ancestors owned slaves. While there are those who abstractly assert that ALL Americans benefited from slavery regardless of whether they owned slaves or not, there is no economic evidence to support such a narrative. The great majority of the US population (other than the native populations) has always been working class. For those working people slavery represented massively unfair labor competition. The existence of slavery drove down wages and crippled efforts to improve working conditions for working class people.

Then we must consider the millions of families that immigrated to the US after the Civil War and thus where not even in the country when slavery was being practiced.

Keeping in mind that the vast majority of the US population never supported nor profited from slavery, we must then ask how the reparation are to be financed. The typical non-class-based solution that is floated is that the reparations should be paid from taxes on the general American public. Since the great majority of the current US population never even had ancestors involved in slavery, demanding that they sacrifice to cover for the sins of others will unavoidably generate resentment. This resentment, to say the least, will not function as a unifying force in American society.

It wouldn't be at all paranoid to suspect that generating this resentment and further dividing the US working class is the very reason that reparations are being discussed.

If, on the other hand, we were to investigate businesses and families who owned and profited from slavery all of those years ago and seize their assets to pay reparations, targeting businesses and descendants of people actually responsible for slavery, then it may be possible to avoid much of the natural resentment that we would otherwise have to deal with.

Or should we face up to the fact that it will largely be Black Americans who have to deal with that resentment alone? It is difficult to think of a better way to alienate Black Americans and further inflame race tensions in America than reparations as they are currently conceptualized. After all, the elites don't really need most Black people's labor right now, and we've already got all of those FEMA camps... A heaping helping of resentment might go a long way towards getting most of America to look the other way while redundant Black workers are rounded up and relocated. "For their own safety!" of course.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 20:48 utc | 308

Thanks, karlof1 @ 307, and you could be right about the Russian treatment of native Alaskans on the state level. But I do know that the involvement there of the Russian church was far different from that of Western churches at least in the early years of both encounters. Western church leaders wanted to wipe out native traditions, while the earlier Russian Orthodox left such alone as being not perceived to be offensive. 'Alternate versions of the same truths' is how I understand the attitudes of Orthodox monks and ministers of the church in those regions. Hence there is a strong Orthodox presence in native communities to this day. And to a lesser extent, so is there a strong Catholic tradition in New Mexico's pueblos - beside the traditional kiva for native ceremonies there is often a Catholic church and both ceremonials are important to many pueblo families. So, while there were atrocities committed in the past by rigid 'our way or the highway' priests and practitioners, the gentler Catholicism I encounter here must also have been present in earlier times, and is very similar to my own understanding of Orthodoxy and its involvement with Alaskan native tribes.

Posted by: juliania | Jun 30 2020 20:49 utc | 309

Re: Boeing

Dark humour:

Posted by: Guest | Jun 30 2020 20:53 utc | 310

@306 Times change juliana. I find most Brits apologetic these days. Almost anxious to make amends. And I don't think Maori people club each other to death quite so much as they used to before colonisation. (That won't go down well).

@307 "Will the human animal ever transcend its animalness and become a peaceful being governed by ethics and morality?"

Some of us will, some won't. There will always be outlaws and misfits. I think the main problem we are facing now is population density. It creates new pressures that we have to deal with. Covid may be a symptom of it and I think there will be more virus's coming.

Posted by: dh | Jun 30 2020 20:58 utc | 311

Blue Dotterel @ 299
I take issue with your ——- America has many problems but slavery isn’t one !
Look a bit closer at the US prison industry including ‘3 strikes and your out’
Look at the numbers /statistics the efnic proportions / percentage, the cost to the US tax payer. The sheer scale of misery involved.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 30 2020 21:05 utc | 312

There have been many an injustice that has occurred in history of every country/culture! How to pick and choose which deserves recognition and ultimately put a dollar sign on it?
Tired of this waste of time. Just more fucking white man's guilt bullshit. Time to move on as well. Time for people to just start being people and stop thinking they're victims. "I'm ugly as fuck and I can't get laid unless I pay for it. Where's my compensation cheque?". How much does France owe Haiti? Israel/Palestine as if that would happen.
Trying to enforce equality by compensation is a waste of time. It's a circle jerk. Just distraction. I'd like to provide Canadian aboriginals as an example:
I'm a newf from newfoundland. My forefathers probably collected the scalps of the native beothuk while they was out bird hunting. U know? "There's them savages let's shoot em pa cause I ears dat dem scalps is wort 50 pence down to da church". Just a horrible probable fact of circumstance and.... Ignorance? Is this horrible? Obviously yes but because we wiped em out we pay no compensation! Disease was also another/main factor(I'm kinda off topic but a good reason for genocide????)
Still native populations in labrador (part of the Canadian province of newfoundland and labrador) while enduring, are continuously portrayed as victims of "the White way of life". Gas sniffing, shift less youth, crappy living conditions and constant oppression from "whitey" who doesn't appreciate his way of life. People who want to hunt and fish for a living but go home and watch the game and order a brand new snowmobile/truck/etc. need money and will bitch to get it!
Now this obviously seems racist but it's also true of whitey and I'm just sick of the distraction as if our racist as fuck governments made up of the assholes that made money off of slavery etc. Should spend the mostly innocent multi generational offspring (and non white immigrant) monies as reparations for social inequality or capitalism is a joke.

Posted by: PleaseBeleafMe | Jun 30 2020 21:14 utc | 313

Has anyone else noticed how the price of silver has picked up speed in recent weeks? It used to be pretty much disconnected from the ever-increasing gold price, which was weird. Apparently, not any longer.

Posted by: Scotch Bingeington | Jun 30 2020 21:15 utc | 314

William Gruff @308--

On who within USA benefited from slavery, as I wrote above, the vast majority of the initial infrastructure of the colonies/states was constructed using slave labor--harbors, draining of swamps, formation and cultivation of plantation fields, construction of roads, the providing of trade goods--particularly those called Naval Stores and tobacco, and so forth. There are several excellent books documenting the fact that Capitalism's initial Capital was provided via slavery.

IMO, the people to ask are African-Americans like Margaret Kimberley. Here's one of many Black Agenda Report articles on the topic. An excerpt follows:

"Resources are important, and any reparations scheme that does not have a price tag in the many trillions is an insult to the living and the dead. According to one estimate, the Federal Reserve bank bailout amounted to $29 trillion – to save the criminals that caused the economic collapse! Redressing crimes against the Black people whose unpaid labor created America’s wealth is at least as large a project. But reparations is more than material resources; it is the power to use those resources for the betterment of one’s people, and to be secure in not being victimized again by the historical oppressor. It means Black self-determination, without which 'democracy' is a sham and a farce."

There're many excellent points raised in that short essay. But most salient was this from the final paragraph that speaks to what's happening today:

"In his book Black Visions, Dr. Michael Dawson analyzes the results of an exhaustive political survey of African Americans that he oversaw in 1994. The survey showed that a majority of Black people, while not in favor of politically separating from the United States, nevertheless see Black America as a 'nation within a nation.'" [My Emphasis]

IMO, that perception has only grown since the survey.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 30 2020 21:17 utc | 315

This is an open thread right ?
James. I love your Vancouver Island, beautiful land beautiful trees, (I’m a tree climber)
At present I’m hooked an a series of YouTube vids training and general interest.
Am wondering if your aware of him.
Recommended distraction and therapy!

Reg Coates tree work YouTube

Totaly irelivent to any thing here but worth watching a great bloke.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 30 2020 21:18 utc | 316

@308 william gruff.. here is a thought i am curious for your feedback on.. what about the idea that different people are motivated for different reasons.. not everyone wants to adopt the capitalist, private property mantra... i think the native people who were on the north american continent didn't hold to this same ideology... unfortunately the ideology was forced on them... i think it might be the same for the black people... they are forced to live in a set of values that are more the white man's values - finance and economics and getting ahead being one of the main themes.. perhaps they identify with a different set of priorities and values that don't dovetail with wall st nearly so well?? i realize i am stereotyping here for the sake of talking about it... at some point one system or way of doing something must give way to another system and way... i think we are in the process of seeing this come about, but it looks like it is going to come about via a more cataclysmic way, then in a peaceful way...

@ 311 dh... i got raked over the coals for saying something along similar lines to your comment here - "I think the main problem we are facing now is population density." the idea that the planet can sustain an infinite number of people seems to be the backdrop to this.. either that, or one is pursuing a nazi- rothchild, or was it rockerfeller concept of population control.. apparently there is no inbetween and when i talked about it before i got chastised for it!

either way - i agree with you on that, but how to move forward, i have no idea... what we are doing on and with the planet at present is unsustainable.. that is my main belief.... how we change this, i have no idea.. it does look like a battle between economics verses the environment... others try to explain to me how i am failing to appreciate that we can have both, but i can't see it.. one is dominating - economics, and the other is subject to it - environment...

Posted by: james | Jun 30 2020 21:23 utc | 317

@ thanks mark2! i will take a look... cheers..

Posted by: james | Jun 30 2020 21:24 utc | 318

CitizenX @301: "One doesn't need to advertise their beliefs, especially when it comes to violence. You are either a force for good or you are not- Martial Spirit doesn't fuck around with bravado."

I am not really into violence, and unlike many Americans who have traveled a bit beyond the country's borders I have never done that travelling armed and in a pack of similarly armed guys. Solo and unarmed has worked for me. That said, I have had some training and do not need a gun to defend myself. In fact, in a home invasion situation I will not likely even reach for my gun (it's locked up anyway). If I happen to need a gun I would probably just borrow one from whoever is invading my home.

But I didn't raise the points to talk about me. People in general shouldn't have to be brave or strong or meaner than the next guy in order to live their lives in peace. If the gun helps dissuade the hyperaggressive freaks that thrive in American society from intruding on those people, then I think it is a good thing. Granted, it is tough for people to live in peace when America is bombing and droning their country and hiring death squads to terrorize the neighborhood, but even then I think they might have a better chance at living in peace, or at least living, if they are armed.

More importantly, I think people glorifying home invasion are encouraging impressionable youth to do stupid things that could end their lives while permanently ruining innocent people's peace of mind. I think suggesting to kids that there might be something like honor in violent criminal behavior does everyone a disservice.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 21:24 utc | 319

mark2... i have seen a lot of this... it goes right into the issue of population density... have to get rid of the trees to make way for the people... i can't see it working out for us on planet earth..

@ 319 wg.. nice post... i agree with you... the only part i am confused about is who glorifies home invasion?? i don't know anyone who does...

Posted by: james | Jun 30 2020 21:29 utc | 320

Given the intersection of topics, the story of these St. Louis homeowners has made the news, and is somewhat irreverently reported at the link by Abby Zimet, who I often criticized for her hypocrisy back when I was allowed to comment at that site. The comments are pretty good; I liked this one the best:

"Just looking at them proves that you don’t need to live in a trailer park to be trash."

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 30 2020 21:35 utc | 321

This is the guy on Vancouver Island good therapy !

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 30 2020 21:40 utc | 322

@317 What happened james? Did you get called a Malthusian. Shame on you. Go back into the woods and never show your face on MOA again.

Posted by: dh | Jun 30 2020 21:47 utc | 323

karlof1 201

Having read a number of Ehret's articles I did attach such importance to that paragraph or take it the same way you have.
Through several of his articles he has quotes on the likes of Rhodes and Churchill who's vision was to pull the US back into the anglo fold. That I think occurred at the end of WWII with the beginnings of five-eyes.
My view is that the anglo five-eyes deep state is the seat of power in all our countries. They control the media and they can easily control elected politicians and foreign policy with the media and through their multinational 'intelligence' operation.

In an earlier conversation we tossed around the civil rights and hippie era. Five-eyes have taken that up and used it in their R2P destruction of countries and colour revolutions. Five-eyes is about anglo world dominance. US nationalists also went along with this for a time, but with the writing on the wall for the US, they are trying to pull out. What you are seeing in the US now is an anglo five-eyes regime change operation - no different to the many that US/UK ect has pulled on numerous other countries in the past.
There are other issues involved in the breakdown of society - for US, exceptionalism has contributed greatly, but the anglo deep state is a major problem that must be removed before anything else can be fixed.

Wikipedia gives a pretty good over view of five-eyes
"In the late 1990s, the existence of ECHELON was disclosed to the public, triggering a major debate in the European Parliament and, to a lesser extent, the United States Congress. The FVEY further expanded their surveillance capabilities during the course of the "war on terror", with much emphasis placed on monitoring the World Wide Web. The former NSA contractor Edward Snowden described the Five Eyes as a "supra-national intelligence organisation that does not answer to the known laws of its own countries".[7] Documents leaked by Snowden in 2013 revealed that the FVEY has been spying on one another's citizens and sharing the collected information with each other in order to circumvent restrictive domestic regulations on surveillance of citizens"

Here in Australia, we are now shooting ourselves in both feet similar to Ukraine. Trade with China will stop in the not too distant future which is our main export market for the mining industry. Checking the Australian news this morning and I see anti China and Anti Russia propaganda is now included in domestic news rather than the world news section. our supreme leader has announce a heap extra money over the next years to build a larger and more aggressive military.

Trump? He fronts the US nationalists but his aims are to take down China and grab some oil.... but to do that he needed good relations with Russia so Russia would stand aside, but Russia, as a great power is the hereditary enemy of the anglos.

There are no clear cut crisp lines, most aspects overlapping, but I believe the five-eyes multinational deep state is the leading cause of most problems and must be removed before any other changes can occur.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 30 2020 21:58 utc | 324

Oh brother, here we go ...

pl has taken MSM fearmongering up a notch.

Is white is the new black? Are we ALL victims now?

pl @SST

"White Supremacy" is code for the present forms of government and economy. These movements are deeply Marxist, deeply against private enterprise, deeply anti-democratic except for the Soviet definition of the word. "Government ownership of the means of production and distribution."

The insurrectionists are hoping for a collapse of the will to resist ...

LOL. The CHAZ/CJOP "insurrectionists" have failed with several dead and multiple lawsuits - barricades are being removed now as the city moves to reclaim the area.

One gets the sense, from his multiple comments on this matter, that pl looks forward to shooting into a crowd some day. As if that would end the torture of his deluded victimhood.

<> <> <> <> <> <>

Can we agree on some things short of Civil War? I think so. But that'll never happen as long as extremists on both sides work overtime to divide us. A division that, I fear, distracts from troubling developments and will only be healed - as if by magic! - when propaganda directs people's anger to a common enemy (Russia? China? Iran?). A war pre-planned by the Empire's power-elite to serve THEIR interests.

In short, any student of history should be smart enough to question the fearmongering about the radical left. It seems over-blown, and that is likely to be purposeful. I can't shake the feeling that we are being played.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 30 2020 22:02 utc | 325

james @Jun30 21:29 #320

... who glorifies home invasion?

I'm beginning to wonder if "home invasion" is the polite way to disparage reparations.

Amiright wg?


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 30 2020 22:05 utc | 326

Still more HCQ studies without Zinc. Just to say that they are studying it? Constantly. So YOU don't have to! STFU and leave it to the 'experts'.

Global Hydroxychloroquine Study To Resume After Positive Trial Results

The study is funded in part by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Unsurprisingly, their website makes no mention of the inclusion of zinc - largely credited by pro-HCQ physicians as the key ingredient to the treatment.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 30 2020 22:20 utc | 327

More proof (if any were needed) that the Erdogan skeptics were right:

U.S. Senate To Vote On Whether To Purchase Russia’s S-400 Missile Defense System From Turkey

If this goes through, USA will have captured S-400 systems without firing a shot. All it took was the promise of Libyan oil and printing a little more fiat.

Russian ice-cream FAIL? The Sultan wanted something sweeter./sarc


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 30 2020 22:37 utc | 328

Considering the highly biased fake news main media mind control propergander !
I link this for a more balanced overall view point !
Also I recommend the many different twitter accounts this one will lead you too.
PS dont mess with Auntie !
Auntie fa !!!

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 30 2020 22:49 utc | 329

Forgot the link, been a long day, night all.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 30 2020 22:52 utc | 330

Peter AU 1 @324--

I once divulged being offhandedly connected to the NSA when I was in military and knew about ECHELON prior to its being publicly admitted. Intel sharing between ANZAC and NATO I also knew about. Walter seemed to think there's some substance to FDR's demise not being natural and the timing being suspect. The unseating of Wallace during 1944 I've studied as well as some bits of the 1933-4 "Businessmen's Plot." But IMO, the international linkage begins after the US Civil War and aims at stopping the drive to end "Feudal Privileges," which also happens to coincide with the rise of the North's police force with "social control" being seen as a need. LaRouche always struck me as an outlier, but there may be some there there with him. Ehret isn't the only writer at Strategic Culture with a connection to his organization--Cynthia Chung does too, is Canadian and works at a similar institution as Ehret, the Rising Tide Foundation. GHW Bush was likely a very key player with Full Spectrum Dominance springing directly from his New World Order. But how do the Zionazis fit in? If Full Spectrum Dominance was already the proclaimed #1 Policy Goal, why was there any need for OKC then 911? To destroy evidence is my answer. I wrote a short note to Pepe Escobar at his FB today about the implementation of Hong Kong's new security law, to which he replied he'd keep his own counsel. I gotta go for now, but we'll resume this again since events will provide us with context.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 30 2020 22:53 utc | 331

@322 mark2... thanks man... i honestly prefer to see them standing, then taken down!

@ 323 dh.. you crack me up every time!! thanks for that...

@ 325 jackrabbit... regarding pat lang... i asked him this question - "so pat, what is worse??? feith and the neo con freaks, or an msm beholden to the them?? it seems the msm is run by the same koolaid drinkers, so maybe i am splitting hairs here.... until the usa figures out how to get rid of the whole lot of them, you will continue to read this stupidity on a regular basis in the non free msm - fox, nyt - it really doesn't matter... they all seem to serve the same interests and it definitely isn't the publics interest." here is pats response... the last line is especially informative...


It does not seem to me that the corporate owners of the MSM are neocons.. They cooperated with the philosopher kings and their "gentlemen" in various causes in the ME because what the neocons wanted was what Israel wanted and they are Zionists. In other matters they seem to me, to be standard variety lefties. I think it likely that there will be a general collapse of society, some form of civil war and then Bonaparte will appear."

he follows this up in the current thread on blm - he seems to believe a civil war is definitely in the cards in the usa... that is a pretty dark set up.. i don't know how to respond to that...

@326 jackrabbit... i dunno.. i like to think not, but frankly i don't think any amount of reparations is going to fix what is happening in the usa at present.... i don't see an easy way forward in all of this and the scenarios including the one pl seems to believe - are all quite disturbing... i hope for something better.... trump is not bonaparte by a long shot..

Posted by: james | Jun 30 2020 23:15 utc | 332

james @Jun30 23:15 #332

I'm not saying that reparations will fix anything. Just that it seems to me that white Americans think of reparations almost like a home invasion.

If there is to be any reparations, it would have to be a Government-initiative. But MSM talk about the possibility as though individuals would have to pony-up the dough from their own pockets. Anathma!

<> <> <> <>

pl's worldview is reactionary and often illogical. I look in at what he is saying from time to time as a indicator of thinking on the right. Much like Rachel Maddow on the left.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 30 2020 23:29 utc | 333

thanks jr... i think i am doing the same, but it is only on websites and i don't believe rachel maddow has a website! i don't watch tv, or youtube for info.. it is relevant and informative to follow what others have to say, even if i don't share their viewpoint...

Posted by: james | Jul 1 2020 0:13 utc | 334

Jackrabbit & james

Lang hasn't got past the juvenile left vs right crap. He's led along as easily as the mobs in the streets.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 1 2020 0:45 utc | 335

I highly suggest barflies read this latest from Hudson. We were discussing Home Invasion earlier. What he describes is violent in its own way:

"Individuals who are unable to pay their debts, workers who’ve been laid off, are told to borrow from their pension funds or social security accounts. That means that they won’t be receiving the retirement income they need to live. Likewise, the states and the cities that Jeffrey Sachs mentioned also are facing a debt crisis with their bondholders. Mitch McConnell, the Republican Senate head, said that Democratic states like New York, New Jersey and California should cover their shortfall by taking the pension funds that they’ve set up for public employees. The financial sector’s intention is to use this crisis to wipe out the pension funds and transfer the savings of the wage-earners to pay bondholders and other creditors. The promises that state and local governments made for pension in exchange for not asking for higher wages are to be wiped out.

"The debts that have been built up are being used as a financial warfare tactic. It is more efficient than military warfare. Debt has been used to strip away the assets of middle-class people, of home owners, of employee pension funds, to suck their savings and property up to the top of the economic pyramid. The pandemic crisis has created a battlefield. Its rules have been written by the financial sector and their lobbyists as an opportunity for the largest property and financial grab since the Great Depression."

Yes, Class War via Financial Warfare as we've discussed is already a reality and is soon going to be escalated unless we defend ourselves from what amounts to something worse that a Home Invasion--being dispossessed almost completely and left homeless. The Invaders will use a pen instead of a gun to put you on the streets.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 1 2020 0:54 utc | 336

@jackrabbit 333

Why l vs r? You're a wise rabbit but look at individuals individually.

Posted by: PleaseBeleafMe | Jul 1 2020 1:04 utc | 337

@ peter au... i agree with you ... however, most in the usa are very polarized along these same lines - left and right... the usa at present seems very polarized...

i was thinking of this civil war concept... when the usa had its last civil it was over north verses south and issues involving slavery.... i can't see having a civil war here as their are no clear boundaries separating everyone, other then these right and left polarities which you can't tell from watching someone walk down the street... how would a civil war happen in the usa, if it was to happen?? i am seriously curious, if anyone can imagine this as a real possibility - please chime in.. thanks..

@ 336 karlof1... thanks for that... can you find the basis for a civil war in the usa based off that?? i am curious.. how would it start? are the street people and those who have been disenfranchised going to go on the attack on wall st for example?? how is it going to play out?

Posted by: james | Jul 1 2020 1:08 utc | 338

All this talk of home invasion and thievery in the current thread made me wonder: Is everyone here OK with me stealing, lollipops?

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | Jul 1 2020 1:54 utc | 339


Most if not all of the old world powers have seen revolutions where the people tossed out their governments in the last few hundred years. Britain has had continuity of government for 800 years or more. Their only failure was the American colonies.
The Brits are very good at preventing revolution - I liken it to a fisherman playing a fish on a light line, letting some line out when it runs then reeling it back in. They have also been very good at playing factions against each other in their far flung possessions. many countries gained their independence after WWII when Britain no longer ruled the seas but the commonwealth still lives. Australia, Canada, New Zealand - all have a governor general who answers to the monach and has the power to sack an elected prime minister.
Nazi's and wahhabi's are tools to be used. The Israeli's? Saker calls it the anglo zionist deep state. I'm not sure it was that at the start. I suspect Israel was set up by the British as a tool but become something of a god for Americans. Early on Israel was an outpost in what was then a Soviet sphere. The sing along babbling evangelists of the US make up a large voting block and with Trump as the nationalist front man are far more Zionist than five-eyes.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 1 2020 2:01 utc | 340


A decent civil war that would keep the Americans occupied for a while would require a split in the military Perhaps it would be more along the lines of anarchy and insurgency. The way things a cooking up in the US, this coming election may be the last they have.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 1 2020 2:24 utc | 341

peter - thanks.. what are the chances of a split in the armed forces?? as for the election in november, i am wondering if it will even happen... that is not a sure thing here..

Posted by: james | Jul 1 2020 2:53 utc | 342

At the moment I could see some splits or defections in the upper politicized ranks but no idea about the rest.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 1 2020 3:07 utc | 343

"People in general shouldn't have to be brave or strong or meaner than the next guy in order to live their lives in peace. If the gun helps dissuade the hyperaggressive freaks that thrive in American society from intruding on those people, then I think it is a good thing. Granted, it is tough for people to live in peace when America is bombing and droning their country and hiring death squads to terrorize the neighborhood, but even then I think they might have a better chance at living in peace, or at least living, if they are armed."
Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 21:24 utc | 319


Copy that good Sir.

Tragic that kids grow up in the self induced insanity of the US military war and rape culture of amurika. Violence Nation hyped up on war porn 24/7.

Some people seem to choose willingly to be eaten by a Grizzly as part of the food chain or leave themselves open to being physically attacked or raped. I made a choice long ago to try to look out for my fellow living being and not create bad situations.

I would love to see a Grizzly in the wild and I would hate to shoot one. There would also be no hesitation to defend myself from 2 or 4 legged predators. We all get to choose and realistically train for any such events.

It's those who can't believe it can happen to them I'm bewildered by.
What woman starts their day thinking they will be raped today?
What person thinks today I will be robbed and beaten?
Who thinks their neighborhood will be a war zone with bullets flying and homes destroyed by drones?

Yet all those things are occurring regularly around the planet daily- Much of it lead by the very same Govt that its citizens proclaim "it can never happen to me".

Posted by: CitizenX | Jul 1 2020 3:27 utc | 344

james, peter

1) IMO there will not be any split in the military.

2) IMO the election in November will go ahead with little real difficulty.

3) IMO the Deep State will arrange for their favored candidate to win (as always) - almost certainly Trump unless Biden chooses Hillary as his running mate (which I very much doubt).

4) IMO war propaganda and hyped suspicions of foreign influence behind the protestors will be used to unite USA (as I wrote of @325). Venezuela looks likely.

5) IMO the deep recession we have entered is a wild card.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 1 2020 3:32 utc | 345

I came across this interview at, in Lambert's watercooler. The comments there were few and mostly positive, but even though some of Wilkerson's statements are good ones, the whole 'movement' if I can call it that, plus players involved, I found extremely disquieting.

I was particularly alarmed to hear Nebraska's senator mentioned as a key player. His involvement in promoting voting machines that could be manipulated from 2000 on makes his involvement highly suspect to me. (I sensed some reservations on the part of Lambert in posting the interview also.)

Posted by: juliania | Jul 1 2020 3:33 utc | 346

Jackrabbit @Jul1 3:32 @348:

hyped suspicions of foreign influence behind the protestors

That didn't take long!
China Caught Smuggling 10,800 Assault Weapons Parts Into Louisville By US Customs


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 1 2020 3:42 utc | 347

@338 I can't see a full blown civil war. But I can imagine a situation where 20 or 30 armed BLM guys, perhaps with 1 or 2 antifa, get themselves holed up in a building somewhere. There will be negotiations but it will probably be another Waco.

Posted by: dh | Jul 1 2020 4:38 utc | 348


The anglo US colonies, after its war for Independence from Britain was unique for its day in eliminating hereditary titles. i have often thought the US went on to replace hereditary titles with hereditary money.
I ran onto this speech by Roosevelt.

A couple of sections from it..
"That very word freedom, in itself and of necessity, suggests freedom from some restraining power. In 1776 we sought freedom from the tyranny of a political autocracy—from the eighteenth century royalists who held special privileges from the crown. It was to perpetuate their privilege that they governed without the consent of the governed; that they denied the right of free assembly and free speech; that they restricted the worship of God; that they put the average man’s property and the average man’s life in pawn to the mercenaries of dynastic power; that they regimented the people.

And so it was to win freedom from the tyranny of political autocracy that the American Revolution was fought. That victory gave the business of governing into the hands of the average man, who won the right with his neighbors to make and order his own destiny through his own Government. Political tyranny was wiped out at Philadelphia on July 4, 1776." ...

.... "For too many of us the political equality we once had won was meaningless in the face of economic inequality. A small group had concentrated into their own hands an almost complete control over other people’s property, other people’s money, other people’s labor—other people’s lives. For too many of us life was no longer free; liberty no longer real; men could no longer follow the pursuit of happiness.

Against economic tyranny such as this, the American citizen could appeal only to the organized power of Government. The collapse of 1929 showed up the despotism for what it was. The election of 1932 was the people’s mandate to end it. Under that mandate it is being ended.

Today we stand committed to the proposition that freedom is no half-and-half affair. If the average citizen is guaranteed equal opportunity in the polling place, he must have equal opportunity in the market place.

These economic royalists complain that we seek to overthrow the institutions of America. What they really complain of is that we seek to take away their power. Our allegiance to American institutions requires the overthrow of this kind of power. In vain they seek to hide behind the Flag and the Constitution. In their blindness they forget what the Flag and the Constitution stand for. Now, as always, they stand for democracy, not tyranny; for freedom, not subjection; and against a dictatorship by mob rule and the over-privileged alike."

It seems that with the passing of Roosevelt, the royalists won

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 1 2020 4:46 utc | 349

i think a civil war in the u.s. would be more of an all against all, maybe warlords fighting it out. the various governments could still play a role, but they wouldn't control it.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Jul 1 2020 5:10 utc | 350

For anyone wanting to understand Australia's commitment to taking down China, read this shit.

I think that unlike Italy, we should be hanging our politicians from bridges before, rather than after we are defeated.

Nowdays I constantly have visions of brits in pith helmets as an outpost of anglo empire.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 1 2020 6:21 utc | 351

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 30 2020 21:05 utc | 312

"Look a bit closer at the US prison industry including"

I do not disagree, and am aware of it. I was considering a more traditional form of slavery.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Jul 1 2020 6:58 utc | 352

James @ 332
Agree with you defiantly, but that’s the guy that keeps your lovely homes and roads safe. And looks after your trees.
Stunning place though, keep safe from the bears.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 1 2020 7:16 utc | 353

Two days ago General Flynn put pen to paper. From his words you can see why the other side are desperate to remove him from the political scene. Incidentally, Sidney his lawyer has confirmed that he is under no gagging order. These are the first paras to set the tone, the rest at either link.

I was once told if we’re not careful, 2 percent of the passionate will control 98 percent of the indifferent 100 percent of the time.

The more I’ve thought about this phrase, the more I believe it. There is now a small group of passionate people working hard to destroy our American way of life. Treason and treachery are rampant and our rule of law and those law enforcement professionals who uphold our laws are under the gun more than at any time in our nation’s history. These passionate 2 percent appear to be winning.

Despite there being countless good people trying to come to grips with everything else on their plates, our silent majority (the indifferent) can no longer be silent.

If the United States wants to survive the onslaught of socialism, if we are to continue to enjoy self-government and the liberty of our hard-fought freedoms, we have to understand there are two opposing forces: One is the “children of light” and the other is the “children of darkness.”

As I recently wrote, the art and exercise of self-governance require active participation by every American. I wasn’t kidding! And voting is only part of that active participation. Time and again, the silent majority have been overwhelmed by the “audacity and resolve” of small, well-organized, passionate groups. It’s now time for us, the silent majority (the indifferent), to demonstrate both.

Posted by: JohninMK | Jul 1 2020 9:31 utc | 354

Blue Dotterel @ 352
Fair comment and thanks for that ‘
After longer consideration ——
Then there’s the back street sweat shops where immigrants live in fear worked as slaves, and are told if they run away their family at home will be killed.
Plus The American outsourced slave Labour abroad mining minerals for mobile phones, scraping ships, making cloths. growing cheap food for a US public, who know it but pretend not to know it.
All the while despising people with a different skin colour!

Granted the historical slavery was of a much more brutal scale. So that perhaps we can agree on.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 1 2020 11:30 utc | 355

Here's a scenario for you Gruff, because it's real and I experienced it. You live in a gated community. You're out in front of your neighbor's house, a female, speaking with her when you see two middle-aged individuals, a male and a female, riding past on their bikes. They wave to you and say hi, what do you do? You question the female as to whether or not the gate is open and why she is riding her bike in a private gated community.

This happened to my wife and I when we visited my brother a couple of weeks prior. I was ahead of my wife so I didn't hear what the British prick said to her. When she rode up to me, I asked her what that was all about and she told so I doubled back and proceeded to the edge of the British prick's property or his neighbor's property actually and asked him what he said to my wife. When he proceeded to tell me, I let loose on him with an incredible verbal tirade. I dressed him down in front of his female neighbor. He told me I didn't need to get aggressive and hostile and I told him I wasn't the one who was aggressive and hostile, but instead he was the hostile aggressor. I told him he was a paranoid pussy who had no perspective. The mere fact he feared that this middle-aged couple on bikes were there to rob him shows what an idiot he is, and, if he didn't think we were there to rob his home, well, he's a fucking prick who needs his face rearranged. My hope was that he would have approached me and taken a swing, giving me the pretext to rearrange that privileged British face of his. But he didn't give me that opportunity. Instead, he went inside his home with his tail between his legs or maybe to call the police or to get his gun.

Fyi, we were guests of my brother and his wife and had every right to ride a bike around their gated community. Something the hostile, pussified British prick never considered. As he was walking back to his home, I said to him, "I bet you're a Trump supporter. You fit the profile."

What would you have done, Gruff? Because as of right now, I see you as the British prick.

Posted by: | Jul 1 2020 12:28 utc | 356

So let me get this straight, the same American government that has failed this COVID-19 crisis so miserably is to be trusted with creating and implementing reparations legislation? Get out of my face with such hypocritical and contradictory nonsense. Reparations could never and would never work. It makes no sense and like everything else, would quickly evolve, or devolve, into a boondoggle for hustlers of every stripe.


Posted by: | Jul 1 2020 12:55 utc | 357

PleaseBeleafMe @Jul1 1:04 #337:

Why l vs r?

Personally, I don't put any store in l vs. right. And I understand that people differ in how much the follow the left-right paradigm.

Nevertheless, left-right is one of the major ways that we are controlled so it's worth understanding how the gullible are being misled.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 1 2020 16:03 utc | 358

@ 345 jackrabbit.. okay... thanks for sharing your take!! business as usual seems to be the response!!

@ 348 dh... thanks dh... i kind of see it like you... one, or a few waco, texas types events maybe, but at this point in time - that will be the extent of it..

@ 353 mark2... thanks mark... what you are missing in the picture is all the building of these homes and how when this happens, it means less and less of nature and more and more of trees being cut down... in fact many communities have been putting in place laws over the taking down of trees, including the one i live in.. too much of this is happening - development over nature - on vancouver island.. that is what i find challenging.. thus i think about things like population control as an important topic worthy of discussion and consideration..

Posted by: james | Jul 1 2020 16:59 utc | 359

@ peter au.... what do you think it would take for 5 eyes to be broken up? it sounds as though much of what is going on in australia towards china is messed up! i don't know how australia or canada for that matter, extract themselves from this alliance... the political will for this is not present at the moment - far from it... most people i know here in canada are quite okay to paint russia and china as villians.. i wish it was viewed differently..

Posted by: james | Jul 1 2020 17:01 utc | 360

JohninMK @Jul1 9:31 #354

With these remarks, Gen. Flynn enters the political arena.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 1 2020 17:03 utc | 361

A useful parallel:

Decent Americans get guns for the same reason North Korea got atom bombs.

Some people would argue that the North Koreans are now eager for some other country to invade them so that they can use their atom bombs on that country. Such people think the North Koreans want to be attacked so that they can use their atom bombs on the attackers.

I am afraid that people who think that way do not have a solid grasp of reality.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 1 2020 18:15 utc | 362

"That didn't take long!
China Caught Smuggling 10,800 Assault Weapons Parts Into Louisville By US Customs"

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 1 2020 3:42 utc | 347

Confirmation that ZERO Hedge is a complete rag of misinformation and gossip trash posing as "investigative journalism". Tyler Durdur should be beaten with the moron cudgel and fired for that published garbage. Maybe Durdur will do a follow up story on Iraqs yellow cake program, or ties to Al Queso Fundito 911 culprits.

Posted by: CitizenX | Jul 1 2020 18:57 utc | 363

@ william gruff... as a country, north korea was exposed to a bullshit war on them with chemical weapons and etc.... since the war on korea in the 50's they have witnessed the usa time and time again, invading other countries - typically countries that don't have the means to defend themselves.... to suggest ordinary americans have been subjected to the same and thus need guns is a real stretch as i see it..gun culture is a cultural phenom centered in the usa... we have home invasions and etc in canada, but ordinary people still put much more faith in the police dept then in having the ''right to bear arms''... it also explains why the number of innocent people murdered by some whacko with a gun is on fairly regular display in the usa too... now, i realize the usa would like to export its 'culture' to the rest of the world, but fortunately not everyone is onside with that..

Posted by: james | Jul 1 2020 19:03 utc | 364

James @ 359
As a tree lover myself James, I agree with all you say there,
Sadly I have never been to Vancouver Island.
I only know it from Reg’s vids, plus a dozen one to one conversations with him on a trade forum.
He did express the same concerns you state, plus added a major concern that the govenment were again issuing clear fell felling liesenses in prehistoric exsisting forest areas.
He takes no part in that. Anyway thanks for your time. A welcome break from trying to change minds on this blog.
Trees life’s matter !!!

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 1 2020 19:10 utc | 365

thanks mark! come visit when you get a chance... get hold of me beforehand and we can connect in person.. there is always more then meets the eye in everything!

Posted by: james | Jul 1 2020 19:30 utc | 366

@363 citizen x.... it was interesting as i went to the zerohedge link jackrabbit linked to and then proceeded to the original link on this article.. it takes you to website based in india and i think to myself of the ongoing dynamic between india and china and wonder if india would have any reason to stir up any hostility towards china? i agree with you on zerohedge and i question the veracity of the article in the link from india... it seems dubious at best..

Posted by: james | Jul 1 2020 19:34 utc | 367

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 1 2020 18:15 utc | 36

It's not a cultural issue to have nukes when you are surrounded by thugs that want fire your ass..But it is(or it should be) an issue to have a society full of firearms and the producers' lobby that make the laws about it..Unfortunately home invasions happens everywhere it's not an american specialty.

Posted by: LuBa | Jul 1 2020 20:05 utc | 368

Thanks James it would be a privilege to meet you.
Just been watching this. Reg again. 30 mins of lovely escapism.
Good therapy!

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 1 2020 20:09 utc | 369

james @317: " might be the same for the black people... they are forced to live in a set of values that are more the white man's values..."

Replace "white man's values" with "capitalist values" and you will be onto something.

Here is a mental exercise that will help limber up your mind and hopefully put this "white man = problem" narrative into perspective. The poster psychohistorian correctly rants about private finance. It is an interesting fact that the largest ethnic group represented among the business leaders and oligarchs in global finance are the Jews. Considering that private finance is a very major problem with the world today and Jews are grossly disproportionately represented in that industry, how comfortable would you be with saying that the problem in the world is therefore the Jews?

Hopefully you balk at that and think "Sure, but most Jews are not bankers! Most Jews are just regular working folks trying to live their lives as best they can as decent human beings, just like most everyone else! Tarring all of them for what a few do is wrong!"

Capitalism oppresses white people just as it does people with more melanin in their skins. If you really think you need an ethnicity to blame for that oppression then start with the Jews and see how picking a particular race as the bad guys should makes you feel (there is history to blaming the Jews, and hopefully you are familiar enough with that history to realize how wrong blaming them is).

Humans need society to live, just as much as they need air, water, and nutrition. Even when that society is less than perfect, humans still need it to survive. Societies allow specialization, combination of effort, and distribution of effort. Societies function according to rules and assumptions that derive from how production of goods is organized in that society. In our society the organizing principal is capitalism. To gain benefit from that society one has to play by that society's rules. People who choose to break that society's rules bring harm to that society and the people who depend upon it. Society will sanction people who choose to break that society's rules, and that is to be expected.

If people choose to benefit from a society, then it is reasonable for that society to require compliance with its rules. If one dislikes the rules, then one has the option of working towards changing the rules (what is sometimes referred to as a revolution) or to relocate oneself outside the sphere of influence of that society and curtail benefits of membership in that society. To benefit from living in a society while refusing to comply with that society's rules yet expecting not to be sanctioned by that society is not rational.

We are all forced to live within a set of values that may not be a perfect fit for our ideals. I know that American values are far from a perfect fit for myself. If I find that compliance with the rules is too much of a burden then there is still the option to head out into the wilderness, cut my ties with society, and eat wild animals and clothe myself in their skins. After all, I no more chose the society that we are currently saddled with than did any Black man alive, but the option to rob from society while giving nothing in return doesn't sit well with me and so is not a viable option for me. Maybe some people can rationalize to themselves that bad experiences by their ancestors justifies them only taking and not giving in society, but I don't think that is a healthy mindset that will serve their well-being.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 1 2020 20:10 utc | 370

@ 370 i' not sure what you are arguing. what group are you saying is robbing society? many groups in american society have been taking and not giving back without even the justification of past victimization. in the particular context of the current protests. the cops have been taking lives instead of giving the protection and service they are supposed to.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Jul 1 2020 20:21 utc | 371

William Gruff @ 370
Sorry Gruffy but you’v got that all wrong.
It is the society you speak of that is letting down its citizens by murdering them and wasting financial resources on need less war. The section of the silent or vocal public that support that crime, are equally to blame.
Your above view amounts to victem blaming. And condoning US crimes at home and abroud.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 1 2020 20:32 utc | 372

pretzelattack @371

I think you might be misunderstanding what cops are supposed to do. They exist to protect property relations. That is to be expected in a capitalist society.

The issue of giving and taking is purely economic. Morality has nothing to do with it. This actually transcends how the economy is organized and is more fundamental to all societies in general.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 1 2020 20:40 utc | 373

Mark2 @372

It is unfortunate, but killing workers and lumpenproletariat members is not outside the de facto rules of capitalist society. It never has been. Wouldn't it be nice if we could change those rules?

We can change the rules, but it take a great deal more than complaining about the situation or casting a vote once every couple years.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 1 2020 20:47 utc | 374

William Gruff that’s double standards and hypocrocy right there. Nothing to do with morality you say. So why shouldn’t by your rules people invade your home. Some thing I would disagree with. All black lives matter are asking for is that your bent cops and political criminals don’t break the law.
The length they have to go to, to be heard is your failing not there’s ! How can you be an apologist for all that is wrong with US & U.K. governments being a regular here and knowing what we know ?

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 1 2020 20:56 utc | 375

"So why shouldn’t by your rules people invade your home."

Because they didn't work for it.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 1 2020 20:57 utc | 376

What this people work at? In case they work for a living....
If not, who pays them for these performances?
What do they pretend, that this ridiculous extravaganza becomes the "new normal"?

I am all in favor LGBT people can live their private lives as everybody else without being beat, discriminated, or despised, but from that to this there is a long run I am not willing to support. They must do their silliness at home. I any of us would do such espectacle in the streets someone for sure would call the police, why they should be allowed?

This, promoted at private TV channel prime time:

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Jul 1 2020 21:04 utc | 377

Gruffy, it was a ‘ protest’ The point they are making and you better hear, is you won’t get peace until they get justice !
You live in a society or you don’t you choose.
Put it the other way round either there living in a law abiding society or they are not. It’s your choise. Remember this protest is about the cold blooded murder of George Floyd.
By people in law inforcement uniform paid by the tax payer to uphold the law. The point is your life won’t matter until theirs does. You need ‘empathy my man’

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 1 2020 21:12 utc | 378

@ 370 william gruff... i like what you are getting at... i suppose what i am trying to get at is that certain systems seem to work better for some then others and it appears to break down along racial maybe that is just an accident... maybe it is an accident many of the professional basketball players are black, or that black people suffer more from the impact of covid then whites, and etc. etc.. i will probably get labelled a racist for saying this, but i would like to see equality and fairness for all... if a certain system - economic, or whatever - seems to favour some over others - what interest will those with the most advantage in whatever system it is, what to give away that advantage?? this is why i believe wanting to get rid of the capitalist system will benefit those who have been hurt by it the most.. and those who have benefited the most from it will be least interested in getting rid of it..

and then there is the issue of inheritance which casts a long shadow over everything as well....

the way i see it - it is primarily the white people that have been in power and written the laws to keep them in power... many people like to think the laws are written for the benefit of all society, and to some extent this is true, but it also breaks down in a system where wealth has more power to pay for a lawyer, or to have the money to get bail and etc. etc... much of this seems set for those with the money and power to maintain their position, or to benefit from their position of power, to influence any number of outcomes...

it sounds quaint to think we can have a revolution and that everyone is going to be a ''law abiding'' citizen at the same time... i can't see it myself as i maintain the laws are made by those in power and they are not working in a system that is in no way egalitarian and giving ''everyone equal rights before the law'', as the saying goes.. something has to give in all of this...

but, i like where you are going with some of your thoughts and challenges to my way of framing it..

Posted by: james | Jul 1 2020 23:29 utc | 379

@ 377 h. schmatz... performance art.... if you want to stop that, may as well try to stop hollywood too while you are at it... the craziness is endless and i don't know that a law or whatever to stop any of it is going to succeed... if people give these kinds of things attention - and many do - they get what they deserve.. stop looking at twitter for a start...

Posted by: james | Jul 1 2020 23:34 utc | 380

Peter AU 1 @349--

Thanks for your reply! I'm rather busy today but will have more time tomorrow to formulate a reply.

William Gruff--

Those people "invading" your home Hudson describes will steal it with a pen and never provide you with the opportunity to defend against the invasion. Too bad so few have even a clue about what's actually happening!

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 2 2020 0:08 utc | 381

regarding my post @ 279.. upon further consideration - maybe it is cultural, not racial... we grew up in cultures that cherish certain things and everyone aspires to it - although we don't all start with equal footing... a good example of this unequal footing is inheritance... some have that and some don't.. if it was a level playing field, inheritance would be outlawed....

@ 381 karlof1... your comment to william gruff is so true... this is what i was getting at with those who write the laws do some from a position of power and so often it seems the laws are meant to retain that same power.. i can't go back to some long ago position where i thought the laws were for the benefit for all in society... and this is why i continue to believe the biggest crooks are the ones who are given the legal authority to be so - wall st being a good case in point... and when they haven't screwed over the little people enough - 2008 a case in point - they get bailed out by the gov't! that is power for one group and suckers for the rest... that is not a society that can last long and this is where we find ourselves today..

Posted by: james | Jul 2 2020 0:29 utc | 382

CitizenX @Jul1 18:57 #363

Confirmation that ZERO Hedge is a complete rag of misinformation ...

On China, Z-Hedge toes the USA party line. Several comments at moa have already noted this.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 2 2020 2:42 utc | 383

So at the end of this long long thread, now would be a good time to ask this simple question !
Who is behind this US internal unrest, and fear of home Invasion ?
The Left or the Right ? The right should include Trump in the run-up to the elections.
Here I think is the definitive answer.

Don’t be taken in by Trumps far right devide and rule !

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 2 2020 10:36 utc | 384

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 2 2020 10:36 utc | 384

The "Top" as opposed to the "Bottom"

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Jul 2 2020 10:52 utc | 385

Blue Dotterel @ 385
Yep, thank you,
And I love your economy of words.
Could give you a hug, oh no wait the virus !
Consider it done.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 2 2020 11:01 utc | 386


GCHQ was behind the Steele dossier. Australia and no doubt Canada added to it. Any good regime change operation does require some pre-existing problems they can work with and five-eyes is exploiting those divides to the full in trying to remove Trump.
With luck, US will implode or explode sometime around the next election, though I doubt that's what five-eyes wants. Biden is their candidate at the moment.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 2 2020 11:03 utc | 387

james "what do you think it would take for 5 eyes to be broken up?"

A lot of pain. Five-eyes is an international deep state. They control the media and they control the populations. The implosion or collapse of US would go a long way towards it, but Australia Canada and New Zealand have to become independent states. For all of us, the monarch of England is head of state and our elected so called leaders swear loyalty to that monarch rather than to their own countries.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 2 2020 11:15 utc | 388

Peter Au1 @ 387
I’v been following your comments about the U.K. powers behind the powers closely. I haven’t committed, but have to say you’v been bang on target with all you say !
It’s a war not a single battle the difference is important to note.
The virus, China, the BLM, Middle East all connected. What possible chance has the public got to make sense of any of it, considering the media and censorship.
We need to keep a firm grip on the truth, for sanity’s sake.
Much respect Peter.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 2 2020 11:20 utc | 389

I’d just add - The people running our county’s, are not running our country’s but are part of a criminal cartel !
The charge sheet is endless, the effects ON OUR DOOR STEP !

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 2 2020 11:28 utc | 390

Typo. ‘county’s’ should read countrys

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 2 2020 11:47 utc | 391

US has just scored an easy billion dollars.

"LONDON (Reuters) - Britain has recognised Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaido as the country’s president, the English High Court has ruled, in a case over whether Guaido or Nicolas Maduro should control $1 billion of its gold stored in London."

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 2 2020 11:57 utc | 392

Have not got to read the last 90 comments but this gun thing has got me thinking.

The justification for this massive gun ownership is apparently to protect one's self and their family from these sort of fuzzy threats.
I find it somewhat similar to the acceptance of a massive, massive military that is in theory protecting the country from more , larger very fuzzy in most cases , threats.
Interesting that the strong and brave and free seem to be so worried.

Posted by: arby | Jul 2 2020 14:12 utc | 394

Add to my above.
All of the folks on boards like this assume that guys like Bolton, and Pompeo, etc., are lying, but maybe they actually believe that all of these conjured up threats actually exist.

Posted by: arby | Jul 2 2020 14:21 utc | 395

Ghislaine arrested by the FBI in New Hampshire. Expect a big rush on popcorn.

Posted by: dh | Jul 2 2020 14:25 utc | 396

thanks peter au... regarding @ 392 and the legal system of the uk giving guaido the billion in gold - it is just as karlof1 and i noted earlier in the thread to william gruff... these criminals write the laws, so it only stands to reason - the real crimes are happening on a much bigger level then some folks want to acknowledge...

@ 396 dh.. i saw that... i wonder what fate awaits her, here forward? off today for some fly fishing..

Posted by: james | Jul 2 2020 16:04 utc | 397


A massive fraud occurred here when governments brought in zoning that covered land titles and land ownership. Original land titles for freehold ownership in some states were called Estate in Fee Simple. It is an old English legal term and its exact legal definition was spelled out in a court case between the commonwealth and NSW over the land for the Australian capital territory. What it means is you own the rights to the land rather than the land. The land is not the surface of the ground but a volumetric area. Under that title you own all possible rights bar any specific rights that are defined on the title.
A government can pass laws to either confiscate rights or repurchase them through compulsory acquisition. For what they wanted to do, no government would survive if it passed laws for confiscation, and compulsory acquisition far was out of reach for the government financially.
The way they got around this when people kicked up because zoning had adversely affected them, they said 'you own the land not the rights'. The worst of this was land zoned as conservation. Under that the landowner is up for costs of fencing, fire prevention, pest and weed control but could make no income from it.
About 7 years ago, one you know what to look for, the full transcript of the court case could easily be found at a government website that has many court cases online. I found a small group of people around Australia that were also looking into it and contacted them. A few things happened over the next few days and then the place we were staying was raided while nobody was around for and hour or so and all internet devises and computers taken. It scared my wife and I didn't take it any further. I had a look for the transcript a couple of years later and no western search engine would bring up any trace it. The Russian search engine yandax immediately brought up references to it, and the relevant quoted section in a blog or two but the transcript of the court case is no longer online.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 2 2020 16:37 utc | 398

The justification for this massive gun ownership is apparently to protect one's self and their family from these sort of fuzzy threats.

All of the folks on boards like this assume that guys like Bolton, and Pompeo, etc., are lying, but maybe they actually believe that all of these conjured up threats actually exist.

Posted by: arby | Jul 2 2020 14:21 utc | 395


On the cusp of "Independence Day" celebrations, igniting Chinese gunpowder from Chinese made fireworks with Chinese made Amurikan Flags while bashing the Chinese in general...

Purportedly part of the myth on gun ownership was for Citizens to be able to defend themselves from both Domestic (ones own Govt) and Foreign threats. Eisenhower came to Jesus and confessed to the brainwashed masses in 1961 that the true threat is US.

Sales for War is the backbone of Economy in a perverted nation- The U.S. is a war/murder for pleasure and profit Nation.

No confusion here on the Regime claims regarding conjured threats. Regardless of whether you believe your (own) lies to be true, they are still lies. Believing something doesn't make it true-

Just as voting for the "lesser of two evils" is still a vote for evil. Now to be "politically incorrect"- the vast majority of Americans are mentally ill fucktards without any real insight as to their own behavior.

Posted by: CitizenX | Jul 2 2020 17:40 utc | 399

I’m with ———CitizenX @ 399

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 2 2020 19:22 utc | 400

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