Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 28, 2020

The MoA Week In Review - Open Thread 2020-51

Last week's posts at Moon of Alabama:

Prof Francois Balloux @BallouxFrancois - 20:26 UTC · Jun 27, 2020
Newspaper headlines from the the 1918/19 influenza pandemic. A furious debate about masks raged throughout the 1918/19 winter in San Francisco, with arguments essentially indistinguishable from those populating my Twitter feed
(for more info see:
> The New York Times publication that Russia allegedly offered secretly bounties to Afghan militants for killing coalition forces was fabricated by the US intelligence agencies, Russia’s Foreign Ministry told TASS on Saturday.
The Russian Foreign Ministry pointed to US intelligence agencies’ involvement in Afghan drug trafficking.

"Should we speak about facts - moreover, well-known [facts], it has not long been a secret in Afghanistan that members of the US intelligence community are involved in drug trafficking, cash payments to militants for letting transport convoys pass through, kickbacks from contracts implementing various projects paid by American taxpayers. The list of their actions can be continued if you want," the ministry said.
"We can understand their feelings as they do not want to be deprived of the above mentioned sources of the off-the-books income," the ministry stressed. <

Office of the DNI @ODNIgov - 3:19 UTC · 28 Jun 2020
Statement by DNI Ratcliffe: "I have confirmed that neither the President nor the Vice President were ever briefed on any intelligence alleged by the New York Times in its reporting yesterday." (1/2)
"The White House statement addressing this issue earlier today, which denied such a briefing occurred, was accurate. The New York Times reporting, and all other subsequent news reports about such an alleged briefing are inaccurate.” (2/2)

Other issues:


The mortality rate of hospitalized Covid-19 patients is declining in Italy as well as in England. The reasons are unknown. My hunch is that by now doctors have learned much more about the disease's progression (cytokine storm, blood clotting) and how to manage it. The case load in both countries has also declined leaving more time for individual cases. This is really good news. The chances to find a good vaccine are not great. This makes good disease management and the right mix of medications for all the problems the virus causes even more important. An example is this man who endured more than two months of ventilation and survived!

SARS-CoV-2 timeline:

This well conducted study from Italy on old sewage samples found that SARS-CoV-2 was in Italy as early as December 18. In contrast this not peer reviewed study from Spain claims that SARS-CoV-2 has been found in March 2019 sewage samples from Barcelona. Several media have picked up on that. It contradicts the analysis of sequenced virus genomes which say that the virus jumped onto humans only in November 2019. There is only one sample in the study that shows partial virus debris and it is not even specific for SARS-CoV-2. I therefore agree with this comment:

Alan McNally @alanmcn1 - 22:14 UTC · Jun 26, 2020
They are using a PCR target shown to have Toss of a coin specificity and their amplifications are right on borderline. This is another example of importance of peer review I am afraid. This is not true!

Pandemic consequences:

737 MAX:

Use as open thread ...

Posted by b on June 28, 2020 at 12:50 UTC | Permalink

« previous page | next page »

Peter @188--

Thanks for your reply. I find Ehret questionable regarding his historical interpretation, although he mostly asks the right questions. He says the following in yesterday's essay:

"What I am saying is that there are demonstrably now, just as there have been since 1776, TWO opposing dynamics operating within America, where only one is in alignment of the ideals of the Constitution and Declaration of independence while the other is entirely in alignment with the ideals of the British Empire and hereditary institutions from which it supposedly broke away."

In this he's quite correct, but why shouldn't it be that way? There's a POV that the USA has always been an appendage of the British Empire; and to my knowledge, no one's ever argued that it shouldn't play that role. Orwell surely saw that configuration as being proper. But from which side of the pond did the writing-out of the academic discipline of Political-Economy occur and from whence did Neoliberalism spring? Who educated the Adams--Henry and Brook, and why does that matter? And there are many more important questions that relate to his overall thesis that the USA's always been a British pawn. That also happens to be the thesis of his main source of backing, the Lyndon LaRouche organization. Read some of his older works and a few from his main organization, the Canadian Patriot Review. I have which is why I'm leery.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 30 2020 0:36 utc | 201

Recommend the read:

What are the advantages of China's CPC-led political system?

Posted by: vk | Jun 30 2020 0:42 utc | 202

US Revokes Hong Kong Special Status, Ends Exports of Defence Equipment, Sensitive Technologies

"Exports of Defence Equipment, Sensitive Technologies" = regime change funding and infrastructure.

Posted by: vk | Jun 30 2020 0:55 utc | 203

karlof1 @195

True, America does home invasions on the global scale, and it is 100% justice for the residents of those nations/homes that Americans are invading to defend their homes by shooting and killing the Americans/invaders. And it is perfectly true that this hideous violence on the global scale cannot be prevented from "trickling down" to the individual level back home.

This interpersonal antagonism in America is palpable and in-you-face. I have never felt anything like it anywhere in Europe, Asia, or even Latin America. Venezuela, which I was assured by stay-at-home Americans is a hotbed of violence and crime, was a charmingly peaceful garden experience compared with typical high-stress American cities. Sure, Venezuela has middle class WHITE youth forming right wing death squads, doubtless organized and paid by the CIA, but I never felt any sense of threat in the working class neighborhoods in Venezuela.

So yes, American society is poisoned. The American working class is eating itself. Trying to insist that Americans not defend themselves when there is nobody else who will defend them is guaranteed to alienate those people, though. And they will be right not to listen to such pleas. To turn things around the aggression and attacks must be halted before you can expect the defense to stop. After all, it is not as if mean people are luring innocents into breaking into their homes so that they can shoot those innocents.

It is my belief that by focusing the fight against the elites that this self-destructiveness in the US working class can be halted... or by halting the attacks within the working class the fight can be redirected at the elites. Doubtless it has to be approached from both directions.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 0:58 utc | 204

Posted by: lizard | Jun 29 2020 23:46 utc | 193 the man tried claiming some stand your ground defense, but he was convicted because he had chased the kid out of the garage and shot him in the driveway.

That's the legal rule (in this country, anyway.) If the criminal is in retreat, you can't shoot him because the threat is (allegedly) over. "Stand Your Ground" only applies in the street, not the home. You can use deadly force in the street with no requirement for you to retreat. But you still can't shoot the guy in the back.

"Castle Doctrine" applies in the home and always has. You have no requirement to retreat in your own home and can use deadly force. But you still can't shoot the guy in the back if he is retreating.

As an aside, it's amazing how many people who comment on firearms have no clue about either firearms or the laws involving them.

That's where the cops' "qualified immunity" comes in. They get to shoot you in the back if you are running away. Their claim is that they are preventing a criminal from escaping to harm another citizen. I don't see why that concept trumps the courts' alleged concern for human life. This is why the courts are unrealistic and inconsistent about violence. If it's a citizen, they are restricted, if it's cops, they can do whatever they want (unless it's more than blatant.)

The courts also have a bizarre notion about "reasonable use of force" in physical confrontations. In reality, anyone who attacks you could kill you by accident. This makes any physical fight a potentially lethal event, justifying any level of force required. Of course, legally and logically speaking, beating a guy down, with him unable to rise again, and then smashing his head with a chair, over a bar argument, would be an improper use of force. But an enemy is an enemy, and treating them as such is logically correct, as they will invariably treat you that way.

My opinion as an individualist anarchist is obvious. Anyone who attacks me or my stuff anywhere anytime dies. But that obviously has to be tempered by the legal consequences. I was mugged many years ago in the foyer of my building at the time by a guy with a hunting knife. Had I a weapon, I would have shot him as he turned to leave, but I might have been wary of shooting him in the back. If I could have followed him down a side street with no witnesses and no cameras, then I would have shot him. But if I were already being sought by the police, or if the situation is a "without rule of law" situation, then I wouldn't hesitate.

Selco Begovic wrote a book about the realities of urban survival during the Bosnian civil war. He has a lot of stores about what happens when you're not prepared to defend yourself in that sort of situation. Simply put, you'll die. Ordinary citizens become blatant murderers and so do the cops. People will kill you for a pack of cigarettes in that situation. He told one story about some occupants of a house. The criminals involved tethered some women in front of them, using them as human shields, then murdered the occupants when they got close enough. This is how people behave when they are in hard conditions and there isn't a superior use of force that can restrain them.

William Gruff 196 Correct. What don't realize about burglars is that it's generally an individual choice whether or not to be prepared to use violence if discovered. Some do, some don't. I read an article about New York back around the turn of the 19th century. At that time, crime was rampant, even more so than the '60s and '70s. Burglars would regularly enter peoples' apartments while the owners were present - and it was said the recommendation was to pretend to be sleeping, because if you got up they would kill you. Modern burglars are less likely to be that murderous, but it will always boil down to whether the burglar has the edge on use of force over the homeowner.

This is why gun purchases have soared since the pandemic and especially since the riots. FBI background checks are at their highest ever. It is because people don't trust the police and especially don't trust the police to be present when something happens. They also don't trust their fellow citizens. They released thousands of prison inmates because of the pandemic, and people knew instinctively that the crime rate would rise as a result. Whether that is true or not is irrelevant, what's relevant is that people believe it will.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 30 2020 1:02 utc | 205

A User @200

You are a middle class coward who will never "disturb elites in their villas". Perhaps you can succeed in goading some dark skinned folks into doing that "disturbing", and they will end up jailed or killed, and you will wring your hands over it all in feigned grief. That's all you can do. That's all the middle class has succeed at for generations. You help urge potential revolutions into the meat grinder. That is how you serve capitalism.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 1:06 utc | 206

uk @Jun30 0:55 #203

US Revokes Hong Kong Special Status, Ends Exports of Defence Equipment, Sensitive Technologies

Not surprisingly, we now see reports that China is sterilizing ethnic minority women (see @Jun29 19:36 #154 and Tuyzentfloot's reply @Jun29 20:15 #159).


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 30 2020 1:19 utc | 207

@ 158 william gruff... where would the gun folks be without these wonderful images of having houses broken into on a daily or regular basis? does anyone know how often it happens? i am sure the gun folks will tell me it happens all the time, or that the only reason it isn't happening so often is because people have there guns to ''protect'' them and keep these countless thieves away..

i was just teasing your with the story on the couple from st. louis..

i do agree with bevin though that it's especially interesting how supposed marxists - and i have never understood what exactly that meant either - get worked up over their private property to the point they would want to blow someone away... i think you are splitting hairs trying to say a rented home and private property are 2 different things.. they way you want to kill someone immediately tells me you don't seem to make much difference either when it comes right down to it..

as for your comment @206 - that is disappointing.... you are going to 'disturb elites in their villas? i doubt it myself based on your earlier comments...

lets just stick to the main theme of amerikkkans having to man up with guns to deal with home invasions, but ignore the ugly reality most of those who have little or nothing happen to be a different skin colour oh and that we aren't racist and etc. etc...

Posted by: james | Jun 30 2020 1:20 utc | 208

Posted by: Ian2 | Jun 29 2020 22:40 utc | 183

"AFAIK, China's One Child policy ended at least a few years ago which was replaced to a Two-Child policy. Also the policy only applies to ethnic Han and if you live in a urban setting."

Under the much more accurately termed "One child only for the Han Policy" the minority population grew like 10 times at the expense of the Han. Yet we are also supposed to believe the CCP was culling the former with the policy according to the Americanazi propaganda when the facts say this would be like the worst genocide attempt ever in history.

Posted by: JW | Jun 30 2020 1:23 utc | 209

james @208

Of course I won't be "disturbing elites in their villas" because that serves no purpose beyond making oneself feel good about intimidating someone else, which has never given me a rise. Nobody needs to intimidate the elites. The working class just needs to organize itself sufficiently to take over control of the economy from the elites. That doesn't necessitate killing them or even making rude gestures in their direction.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 1:29 utc | 210

@ a User 200
I see the point that u are making: human life shouldn't be wasted for an act of desperation.
u are making a unsafe assumption that no physical harm is meant to you or yours and for some reason that the physical well being of an intruder means u must play possum and wait for them to take what they need to survive and go away?
Anyone who enters anothers residence for any nefarious purpose without permission takes their chances. Some mistakes u only get to make once. U wouldn't be allowed to marry my daughter.

Posted by: PleaseBeleafMe | Jun 30 2020 1:50 utc | 211

I could start listing cases where armed citizens prevented crimes - I read those on a daily basis in my RSS feed. But A User wouldn't be persuaded since his agenda is all that matters and facts merely intrude.

Another good one from Tim Cushing at TechDirt:

North Carolina Cops Fired After Their In-Car Camera Catches Them Talking About Wiping Black People 'Off The (Expletive) Map'

More on the BlueLeaks leak:

An embattled group of leakers picks up the WikiLeaks mantle
DDoSecrets was banned from Twitter after releasing hacked law enforcement files.

Apparently a lot of people were *really* upset by that BlueLeaks leak. I'd get that leak (I've downloaded Wikileaks leaks before - the CIA software stuff), but 269GB is a bit more than I want to download at one time, plus it would eat up a lot of my disk space. LOL

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 30 2020 2:12 utc | 212

@208 It's fear james. On Vancouver Island you probably don't even lock your front door but if you were living in the US you might think about it. The fear may be irrational and home invasions may not be that numerous but the possibility is always there. Perhaps people don't want to sit up all night with a loaded shotgun but if they can't sleep they will. They may also feel angry and frustrated because life doesn't have to be that way. .

Posted by: dh | Jun 30 2020 2:20 utc | 213

Over the course of my life I have had my dwelling burgled twice. The first time was in Oz where a bunch of teenagers broke in looking for pot, broke a few louvers on the way in, made a bit of a mess and ripped some reggae cassettes.

It took about 5 seconds to suss the most likely culprits, so I went to visit the dad of one of them who listened to what I said, said "hang on mate I'll ask him" and went into his house grabbed the kids plus a coupla the cassettes and told the kid to start talking. The kid apologised and offered to repair the window, but these weren't rich fellas and it would probably be the parents who had to pay, so I said "Nah I'll sort that myself if you get the rest of my tapes back" Dad reckoned that wasn't enough so the kid had to wash the car & mow the lawns next weekend.
Maybe that is the difference community the notion of pulling a shooter or calling the cops never occurs if you live in a real community. The kid and his mates were what the sociologists referred to as "Urban Aboriginals" and the fact they had nothing better to do in the day than go burgling for pot was more my fault than theirs. I realise some of you will not see it that way but the fact remains that when something like that goes down, if you treat the other parties with basic respect, it is likely that everything will get sorted.

The other issue was more problematic, it happened in Aotearoa, a kid well not really young adult is more apposite who is the son of a chap I knew would visit us from time to time, generally around meal times, we'd invite him to dinner and afterwards he would hop on the playstation with my disabled son who was about 7 back then.

One day we got home after picking the kids up from school & the playstation plus all games was gone. The house (a rental in Auckland) had those useless ranch slider doors and the kid had forced one with a screwdriver, grabbed the console & games then disappeared.

My kid was really upset cos that console was where he showed all & sundry he could beat all comers like an old tin drum disability be damned. I didn't have a clue who could have done it, we weren't insured so no point in calling the coppers, so I had to shell out for a PS2 which had just come on the market plus games. Times were pretty tight as I had two young kids to bring up on me todd and no income, but we managed.
A few days later this young fella's best mate dropped by, all upset, to tell me what had happened.
The kid/ 20 yo adult, had been hopping into 'P' they call it here, aka crystal meth, and was knocking off all and sundry to feed his indulgence.
Jules (his mate) had just found out about my kid's playstation when he went to see his now ex friend and the guy told him, boasting what he'd done.
that was not long before he come to tell me.
I jumped into the car with steam coming out my ears and went to where the prick was staying.
Denial, denial I had gone in on my own, but I was mad and gave him a couple of light slaps, then he admitted it and went straight in to victim mode - insult to injury, so I gave him a couple more & left.
Next thing the dad is on my case for hitting the 'kid'. He knew the circumstances but just didn't get it. Guilt probably since he had shot thru on his son when the kid was a little kid.
I said "What you would have preferred me to call the coppers? "no he said of course not" I barred both him and his kid from my joint and haven't thought about it since.
The other kid who was younger, just 16, the one who came and told me what had happened, we gave a room to-an excellent housemate who stayed with us until we moved south.

There are no solutions particularly when dealing with homelessness and addiction but I don't believe a gun could have done anything other than make things worse.

Guns are tools, totally unsuited to a domestic situation.
Fighting a revolution or even helping defend a group from the effects of imperialism a gun is essential, but since a) I'm now too old for that stuff and
b) there are few committed people where I currently am, there is absolutely no need for a gun for me or anyone else.

Posted by: A User | Jun 30 2020 4:28 utc | 214

karlof1 201

I will get back to you tomorrow with a reply. Been trying to work today and a bit knackered. Read the last five or so articles by Ehret though.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 30 2020 5:04 utc | 215

This is what you get when conspiracy theories run the country...because the government and corporations can't be trusted.

Will People Get the Coronavirus Vaccine?
For a vaccine to work, people have to take it

The amusing part is that people who think the virus can be defeated by "herd immunity" are probably the same ones who won't take a vaccine - which is the only effective way to get to herd immunity without killing a million people - because they're afraid the vaccine will kill them.

You can't make this stuff up, folks. Only on a planet of the apes...

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 30 2020 5:12 utc | 216

And of course, the one procedure that links testing, contact tracing and isolation - the only effective way to deal with the virus - isn't being done in the U.S.

Hey America, What Happened to Contact Tracing?

If experts are correct, nearly 100,000 contact tracers are needed to conduct adequate and efficient contact tracing for Covid-19 in the U.S. Although in flux, the current number of contact tracers at work is likely well below that figure. Last week, CDC Director Dr. Robert Redfield testified that about 27,000 or 28,000 people were doing contact tracing work across the country at the beginning of June. (As of June 26, there’s no update on the current number of contact tracers.)

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 30 2020 5:19 utc | 217

U.S. Politicians Still Do Not Understand the Coronavirus Time Lag
If state governors don’t learn what a time lag is between cases and hospitalizations and deaths, we are in trouble

Recent news — massive growth of cases, increased hospitalizations — is not the result of today’s action. It is a result is actions in May.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis said the spike in cases has “nothing, nothing” to do with the reopening. (I think his explanation was “goblins” or “magic fairies.”) But definitely not him. He and others fail to understand time...

Things will get worse, much much worse, for every day you don’t change course.

The lag between opening, people testing boundaries, feeling symptoms, deciding to get a test, and getting a result is weeks. Hospitalizations a couple weeks later. If you don’t understand how two becomes four becomes 16 become 256 then and you’re a governor, stop what you’re doing.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 30 2020 5:26 utc | 218

And then there's masks myths...

Myths and Facts about Cloth Face Coverings
From Washington State Department of Health.

Also, see the link I gave earlier in this thread from a trauma doctor who bulldozed a bunch of these myths.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 30 2020 5:29 utc | 219

Pandemic ‘Headed in the Wrong Direction at Top Speed’
Ostrich-like federal response blamed as new cases soar

The Covid-19 pandemic in the United States is no longer a potential disaster looming on the horizon. It’s a full-blown national crisis that has forced even the most reluctant governors to tacitly admit their failure to recognize the seriousness of the problem and increase efforts to contain a virus that experts now say is totally out of control, all while the White House has offered virtually no help at all, critics charge.

Scientists who know what will happen next, if something serious isn’t done soon to slow the spread, are sounding alarm bells like never before.

“The acceleration of outbreaks in a number of states is very serious. This should be our number one national priority right now,” says Caitlin Rivers, PhD, an epidemiologist at the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security and assistant professor at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. “We are headed in the wrong direction at top speed.”

The situation today is far more grave than when the number of daily new cases peaked previously at 36,738 on April 24. Yesterday, there were 41,113 new cases across the country, a record, and “the curve” is now on a steep upward slope again, with case numbers rising in 30 states and skyrocketing in several, including Arizona, Florida and Texas and even Montana, Nevada and Utah.

And then there's this...

Surge in Younger Covid-19 Infections Could Worsen the Pandemic

Without new or renewed efforts to control the spread of the coronavirus, the skew to younger carriers will likely initially cause the death rate to fall, since the virus is deadlier for older people, explains Thomas Tsai, MD, a surgeon and health policy researcher at Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston. But the overall rising number of infections will likely drive the daily death toll back up again eventually, due to sheer numbers of infections.

The trend could cause the pandemic to get even worse this fall, Tsai and other health experts say.

The two are linked. More morons means more cases means more dead people - even if most of them are older. But that won't last, as more younger people (under 60-65) with comorbities get infected and the disease takes advantage of their asthma, diabetes and heart disease - which afflicts around 100 million Americans.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 30 2020 5:37 utc | 220

What’s Behind the Covid-19 Age Shift?
More cases of Covid-19 are reported among people in their 20s and 30s

As the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security shared in a recent newsletter, there are likely several reasons for why there’s an increase in younger people with Covid-19. One is the fact that reopenings mean younger people are interacting more and likely increasing their potential exposure. Testing and contact tracing have also increased throughout the U.S., which could mean that more mild cases of Covid-19 are being identified and those milder cases tend to be seen in a younger population. “Limited testing capacity was largely focused on hospitalized patients, which skewed toward older patients,” the newsletter says.

However it’s worth noting that young people can still experience severe forms of the disease and the infections can be fatal. In Texas, people under age 50 are making up 50% of the people hospitalized in Dallas-Fort Worth hospitals and 30% of the people in critical care.

And I'll bet most of those 30% in the ICU are there because of the comorbidities I listed above - which afflict scores of millions of Americans.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 30 2020 5:43 utc | 221

Talking about protecting your personal zone with firearms. No is is talking about the Chop police that shot the two African American children in their vehicle. One was 14 and the other was 16. Obviously the choppers miss Stalin or do they miss the guillotine of the French Revolution?

Maybe they have not assemble one correctly yet? They do come with instructions I presume. Maybe the instructions are in French?

Both black teens shot were BLM activists so I doubt they drove into Chop shooting. It appears they tried to drive into chop through a barricade.

‘Enough’: 1 killed, 1 critically injured in shooting in Seattle’s protest zone

Only a true Marxist can carry a firearm. A dam reactionary lot they are.

The illness extends to all sides. Some more than others

Posted by: Delirium tremens | Jun 30 2020 5:54 utc | 222

re Delirium tremens | Jun 30 2020 5:54 utc | 222

That link is only available in amerika, this blog is published in euro land

Posted by: Dolores P Candyarse | Jun 30 2020 7:26 utc | 223

lizard #132

That rabbit hole was so deviant that my tablet cant hack it. Goes totally rs up and gets the jitters. I will check it out in a few days when i return to the pod bay. I was intrgued and thirst to get some analysis done on that dude.

Thank you and i just hope he is not a bitter and twisted crank.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 30 2020 7:49 utc | 224

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 1:06 utc | 206

Wait to shot a man in your'll fulfill the american dream of man every nation has its dreams have the right to kill eachother in the name of your false freedom.

Posted by: LuBa | Jun 30 2020 7:57 utc | 225

A User #197

The occupiers of Palestine are desperate to hang on to the entirety of the Permanent State. Corbyn rattled them to the core and I suspect they have not been this destabilised since the 1600's when they expanded and occupied Amsterdam and London.

There will be a war in Lebanon as soon as the USA presidential election is done providing either one of their parties wins.

Keir Starmer is a craven tool of their mendacity.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 30 2020 7:58 utc | 226

A User #214

Thanks for your recounting community justice experience. I fully support that approach and have seen it work well in many places. Spent a good part of my life working to get that approach adopted by the straigt laced legal system so we xould keep juveniles out of the justice conveyor belt to suicide or big house sex toys.

Sweden has or had a mighty good restorative justice system as well. There are many examples in the world, some good some crappy. The big statistic that needs emphasising is that once a juvenile enters the justice system for some petty offence then they have a 95% chance of landing in the big house, the main adult prison. Break the conveyor belt, monkey wrench the motors, talk to the offender and always try to save their arse as they will sure lose it in the big house.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 30 2020 8:19 utc | 227

RSH #220

Is Mike Pence still the Trump appointee to solve ghis Covid19 stuff?

Is Pence going to be the christian sacrifice?

That would be too good :))

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 30 2020 8:25 utc | 228

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 30 2020 7:58 utc | 226 There will be a war in Lebanon as soon as the USA presidential election is done providing either one of their parties wins.

There has to be. Taking out Hezbollah is the only way to get the Iran war started. Israel can't afford it otherwise.

Oops, now I've done it. That Iranian moron will swoop in now.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 30 2020 8:47 utc | 229

So guns are the preferred method of defence in America.
And that will include for black people to defend themselves
as well ?
Great as long as we know !
Those police must be nervous.
uncle tungsten.
A belated thank you for your kind words and advice on the preveous ‘mask thread’ have been full on with life’s details. at present.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 30 2020 8:53 utc | 230

It strikes me as ironic that both that couple protecting their life and property, and the ‘black life’s matter’ protesters are on the same side. The clue is in the protest name.
In a sane world those well heeled Bevely Hill Billy’s should show sympathy ! But Wait ! Zoom in and take a long hard look at her eyes. That speaks volumes or is it only me that can see it.
That right there is what is wrong with America.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 30 2020 9:08 utc | 231

Posted by: Delirium tremens | Jun 30 2020 5:54 utc | 222

You are assuming "CHOP" is run by BLM or the Marxists. It is probable that they are run by or at least influenced by the oligarchs through their intelligence services. This can be done by either infiltratng a movement or even creating it. Then you direct it to ends that will ultimately benefit your own objectives.

In fact, the oligarchy may be waiting for CHOP to be attacked by extremists of an opposite ideology. They may even have to set that up themselves. We'll see.

This has been done before.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Jun 30 2020 9:11 utc | 232

LuBa @225: "Wait to shot a man in your have the right to kill eachother in the name of your false freedom."

Very true. But all of these people that you imagine "want" to kill other people have to wait in their homes for their "victims" and "hope" those "innocent victims" break through their door.

But imagine if nobody ever broke into their homes? Oh, the disappointment! Then they would have to join the police or the military to go find people to kill.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 9:56 utc | 233

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 9:56 utc | 233

Heck, in the states, you would be darn lucky if it weren't the police invading your home in the wee hours of the morning. Of course, then the gun won't do you much good - bang, bang, you and your dog are dead.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Jun 30 2020 10:01 utc | 234

Mark2 @230: "So guns are the preferred method of defence in America.
And that will include for black people to defend themselves as well?"

Of course! They are Americans too, are they not? Are you trying to suggest that many Black Americans are not armed? Many say they have to be because they live in dangerous neighborhoods, or so they tell me. Even the ones that live in less dangerous neighborhoods like mine are armed. I think gun ownership might even be a residency requirement in this part of the US.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 10:11 utc | 235

I had a bit of a problem one time and the CIB blokes advised me to camp there with a shotgun. They new what these blokes were up to but couldn't pin them in court. The outcome was good all round. When they rocked up, they did as they were told so they stayed alive and I stayed out of jail.
Another case - a blackfella bad news all round. First offence was at eighteen with the victim suffering machete wounds to the head. Constantly released by the one judge who believed he just a mixed up young bloke and jail would make him worse. A constant history of being released on bail after assaults, one was for the sexual assault of a minor. He was still doing the same at age 25 - so 7 years of assaults and the judge refusing to jail him. He was released on bail after breaking the cheekbone of a sixty year old women that answered her door. He walked the streets for an hour or so then walked into my fathers back yard, started talking to him for a bit then knocked him down and started stamping on his head. The old man was 86 at the time and was in a coma for a week.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 30 2020 10:11 utc | 236

Blue Dotterel @232: "This has been done before."

Exactly. Lacking clear ideology and organization, the masses are mindless. They push one way as a herd, but if that doesn't lead anywhere then they turn and push another way. Watched from above this surging to and fro of the masses can easily be timed and with resources (mostly the mass media these days, but religion is still used too) the direction of the turns can be controlled. What is difficult, if not impossible, to control is the amount of energy in the motion of the masses desirous of change. This energy tends to build as desire for change is stymied. Because with sufficient energy the mindless masses might spill out of the ghettos and trailer parks, breaking from their corrals and posing a potential stampede threat to the elites, the elites split the masses into pieces and get those pieces surging in opposite directions before directing them at each other. This way the energy contained within the mindlessly heaving masses will be expended in destroying each other. This is a tactic of control that goes back a very long time and is nowadays quite refined and reliable.

If one's goal is to preserve the status quo (that's the role the middle class plays) then you encourage one of these split-off pieces of the surging masses to attack one of the other split-off pieces of the masses. You can cancel out much of the energy for change in the masses this way and leave them dissatisfied but largely motionless.

What is most dangerous for the elites is the development within those masses of an ideology of their own and the organization to express that ideology independently of the capitalist mass media. Then the motion of the masses is no longer mindless. It develops class consciousness. It becomes intelligently self-directed and unified, and very, VERY dangerous to the established order. Of course, this danger to the establishment is why the middle class and their masters hate the very concept of ideology and vilify any ideology that unites the masses at every chance they get. This is why they desperately promote "Identity Politics" as it represents the ultimate division of the masses into atomic units that are mutually antagonistic. With the perfect expression of "Identity Politics" it is believed that the surging of the masses can be entirely eliminated, leaving them simply (and safely) vibrating in place and with the masses as a whole having no net motion. It would be much easier to exploit the masses that way.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 11:02 utc | 237

William Gruff @ 235
The problem is at what moment of the perceived threat do you pull the trigger ?
The presence of a gun automatically escalated that situation. As in an arms race. Far from making themselves safer that coulple by producing guns put their own life further at risk.
Better they had stood with ‘black life’s matter’ placards and a tray of cookies !
Conflict resolution.
George Floyd didn’t have that luxury.
I would never carry a gun or weapon, it escultes, provokes and can be used against you.
Aah but then there’s that look in her eye !
It says ‘politically triggerd’ don’t think we don’t see that, we know who are the oppressed and who the oppressors.
Weapons ? Just look at global US politics same problem same failure to learn.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 30 2020 11:23 utc | 238

"at what moment of the perceived threat do you pull the trigger ?"

In the case of home invasion, which I believe we've been referring to, it is safe to say that the invaders are not there to do home maintenance work and wash your dishes. The threat is immediate and delays decrease the dwellers' chances of survival. When someone chooses to break into another person's home the situation has already escalated to the point that the use of deadly force is appropriate.

Had George Floyd's prior victims been armed and ready to defend themselves from his armed assault upon them in their own homes then perhaps Floyd may have never have been alive to become a posthumous TV star. Perhaps some would believe that to be unfortunate.

"Conflict resolution."

Except there would be no conflict resolved. You know that as well as both sides in the little bit of street theater referred to.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 11:45 utc | 239

Blue dotterel @ 232 @ William Gruff @ 237
Regarding lack of leaders !
Leaders like —-
Martin Luther king
Malcolm X
Those black power leaders ?
How did all that work out ?
Plus as far as their policy goes it’s —- ‘black life’s matter’

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 30 2020 11:48 utc | 240

William Gruff
The more sucsessfull robbers will be those people pointing the guns, how do you think they got to own that big house.
Here in the U.K. self defence has to be proportionate !
So you look out your window see a black man, shoot him dead, turns out he’s delivering a parcel !
I note your cherry picking the points I make that you chose to answer, I hope others notice that to.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 30 2020 12:06 utc | 241

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 30 2020 5:37 utc | 220

RE: Younger infectees getting sick, this is to be expected, esp. with it running free all over the planet now; in the same way that it is to be expected that it will evolve in the direction of being less fatal. It's settling in to live among us now.

RE: Hezbollah/Lebanon, it does not appear to me that the Israelis can afford to have us attack Lebanon/Hezbollah. Iran/Syria are quite likely to take the opportunity to get some licks in too while we/they are busy trying to subdue Lebanon. They/we can do a lot of damage to Lebanon sure, but not before Hezbollah & friends do a lot of damage to Israel. If I am not mistaken the "annexation" is being put off now, too hot to handle, despite all the bluster. Biden might be nuts enough to do it, but the Israelis don't appear to be nuts enough to tell him to yet. Still you cannot completely rule it out. On the other hand it's been 16 years since the 2nd Lebanon war, no repeat attempts yet, and the position is not improving for Israel on that front. So I doubt it's going to happen.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 30 2020 12:06 utc | 242

@ Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 1:29 utc | 210

If that's your mindset, then you're in a disadvantage, because the "elite in their villas" will not hesitate in coming to your home, drag you and your family out, and execute everyone one of you.


‘Our Luck May Have Run Out’: California’s Case Count Explodes

"Luck"? You know it's bad when your own leader puts your own destiny at the hands of luck.


One more bailout in Europe:

Italy hands Fiat Chrysler a multi-billion-euro bailout

Soft power is one hell of a drug, but it eventually ends. Europe will learn the hard way you can't survive on being the glamorous part of the world forever.


Coronavirus: UK economy suffered largest fall since 1979 in first quarter

So much for Brexit; so much for the "herd immunity" fanboys...


The final failure of social-democracy:

Are Moon's labor policies failing?

It's happening exactly as I predicted.

Posted by: vk | Jun 30 2020 12:47 utc | 243


You are a middle class coward who will never "disturb elites in their villas". Perhaps you can succeed in goading some dark skinned folks into doing that "disturbing", and they will end up jailed or killed, and you will wring your hands over it all in feigned grief. That's all you can do. That's all the middle class has succeed at for generations. You help urge potential revolutions into the meat grinder. That is how you serve capitalism.

This is an excellent point worthy of further analysis and discussion. Just as surely as Israel uses Evangelicals and NeoNazis as foils in influencing and manipulating American policy and governance, so too so-called "Liberals" and "Progressives" use minorities. It's one reason of many I do not support #BlackLivesMatter.

I'll refuse to defend my home and family when Putin & Xi decide to refuse to defend their homes and their families. I use them as examples because many here appear to worship these two tyrants while 24/7 decrying America as though America is solely responsible for the world's ills. There is plenty of blame to go around and tyrants come in many shapes and sizes. As America's power diminishes, what takes its place will prove to be equally tyrannical if not more so. It won't be some kind of global utopia just as peace was never recognized after the fall of the Soviet Union.

Posted by: | Jun 30 2020 12:50 utc | 244

Wait a second, hold the phone. Gruff, are you stating as fact that George Floyd had a history of home invasion and/or robbing homes? If so, can you prove it or is it just innuendo and speculation in order to control the narrative?

Posted by: | Jun 30 2020 12:53 utc | 245

vk @243

"...the "elite in their villas" will not hesitate in coming to your home, drag you and your family out, and execute everyone one of you."

Nonsense. That's what they have the police for, and in your neck of the woods they also have death squads. The "elite in their villas" don't dirty their hands with that sort of stuff. The elites are organized, are conscious of their own class, and thus can enforce the rules of the game. Criminals killing a few of the elites' lower level lackeys won't change the rules and you know it, so stop being silly and suggesting that it would.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 13:05 utc | 246

George Floyd was not an angel. (Daily Mail) Maybe he became one, though? Probably not.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 13:09 utc | 247

Okay, I looked it up on Snopes and it's true, Floyd was convicted, he plead guilty in fact, for invading a home while brandishing a deadly weapon. This is indefensible as far as I'm concerned. It's unrelated to his murder at the hands of Chauvin and the other cops, but it is related to the glorification and canonization of Floyd by the manipulative Liberals/Progressives.

It irks me to no end how the NYT and CNN and MSNBC will characterize a black male victim killed by police as some innocent saint. It's racist on their part. They feel they need to paint the victim in the most positive light possible rather than letting the case for police brutality and police murder stand on its own merits without disingenuously embellishing the story.

Anyone here taking part in this ruse is a provocateur and certainly not interested in truth & justice. Trying to provide apologia for home invasion and/or burglary is preposterous. What would Xi do? What would Putin do? Many of you are extremely fond of Xi and Putin so you must ask, as their admirers, what would they do about a career criminal like Floyd? Would they glorify him and also ordain home invasion and burglary? I don't think so. Be consistent, at least, otherwise your strategy, much like a/your slip, is showing.

Posted by: | Jun 30 2020 13:09 utc | 248

@ Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 13:09 utc | 247

That still isn't death penalty in the USA.


@ Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 13:05 utc | 246

Of course. You didn't expect Bill Gates to take arms and fight himself, did you?

Posted by: vk | Jun 30 2020 13:16 utc | 249

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 13:09 utc | 247
"George Floyd was not an angel. (Daily Mail)"

Raise your hand - if anyone is....

Posted by: Nathan Mulcahy | Jun 30 2020 13:35 utc | 250

vk @249

Nope, not a death penalty, but had Floyd died in the process of the residents of the home he invaded defending themselves, those residents would be heroes on the evening news and nobody would have cried for Floyd.

As for Gates taking up arms, he doesn't need to. His class sets the rules and he plays by them.

Just in case anyone is wondering, it doesn't look like the residents of the home Floyd invaded were wealthy capitalist elites. I suspect Floyd's motivation in that armed assault was unlikely to have been ideological.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 13:36 utc | 251

Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 30 2020 12:06 utc | 242 RE: Hezbollah/Lebanon, it does not appear to me that the Israelis can afford to have us attack Lebanon/Hezbollah. Iran/Syria are quite likely to take the opportunity to get some licks in too while we/they are busy trying to subdue Lebanon.

No, neither Iran or Syria would intervene if the US and Israel attacked Lebanon. Those countries can't afford to give the US reason to attack them. Certainly they would help Hezbollah with weapons or intelligence, but that would be the extent of it. Unless of course, the US or Israel attacked them first.

Israel can't attack Lebanon on its own or it would suffer the same fate if it attacked Iran and Hezbollah then attacked Israel. So Israel requires the US to assist it in attacking Lebanon. The US has more resources it can devote to attacking Hezbollah than Israel does - especially B-52 high-altitude tactical bombing which might be effective against Hezbollah bunkers whereas Israeli fighter bombers are not so effective. A B-52 can drop 70,000 pounds of precision-guided ordnance in one sortie. Nothing Israel has can match that, short of a nuke.

The only way Israel can win against Hezbollah is to have the assistance of the US in terms of troops and bombers. And Israel has to commit its ground troops immediately in concert with the US - something Israel failed to do in 2006 which is why it lost.

However, the other main problem for Israel is that it needs to attack Hezbollah in the Bekaa Valley, which is Hezbollah's "defense in depth". The only way to do that is to cross Syrian territory so as to come in on Hezbollah's flank. The problem with that is Israel then has to deal with Syrian forces. What Russia would do in that event is unclear. But if the US commits to assisting Israel with troops, the US could send troops into the Bekaa Valley via airborne assault or even via a sea landing and overland, while Israel concentrates on going into Southern Lebanon.

"They/we can do a lot of damage to Lebanon sure, but not before Hezbollah & friends do a lot of damage to Israel."

That's where the B-52s come in. They can conduct continuous bombing across Southern Lebanon which will force Hezbollah to limit its missile barrages into Israel - and possibly destroy a number of their missile caches. Israel can afford to absorb a certain amount of Hezbollah missiles. What Israel can't afford is for Hezbollah to have a free land launching missiles for a month or three months or more, which would devastate the Israeli economy, if not the Israeli infrastructure.

"no repeat attempts yet"

That is because of Hezbollah's missile arsenal. Then in 2007 the Iran NIE took the wind out of Bush's sails. Then when Obama came in, tensions rose but Obama was concentrating on Syria. That's because when the Arab Spring occurred, someone got the idea to take out Syria in the same way as Libya. Had that happened, that would have given Israel a free hand to cross Syrian territory to attack Hezbollah in the Bekaa Valley. But Russia's entry into the Syrian conflict foiled that plan. And then the JCPOA deal was reached. All of this derailed Israel's efforts because the US was not prepared to take out Hezbollah.

Once Trump came in, however, the timing is perfect. He ripped up the JCPOA which removed one obstacle. But Israel still couldn't use Syrian territory to attack Lebanon - not with Russia in the mix. But Trump was fixated on Iran and Syria, not to mention his domestic problems and China, North Korea and Venezuela, not Lebanon. Although Israel and the neocons did manage to get more sanctions on Hezbollah and more bluster about attacking Hezbollah.

Now with the election coming up, Trump probably won't want to commit the US to assisting Israel in Lebanon. *After* the election, if he wins, however, I think it will be a done deal. That's assuming something else doesn't come up to distract the US - China or North Korea or Venezuela.

There's no guarantee, of course. But as I keep telling people, the three things which are ground truth are: 1) Israel wants Iran attacked by the US, and 2) Israel can't afford to do that unless Hezbollah is taken out, and 3) Israel can't do that without US help. Those facts have not changed and will not change.

The only other option is if the US and Iran get into a fight by themselves. But if Hezbollah decides to join in, Israel is screwed again. So Israel *has* to have the US assist it in attacking Lebanon, either before or during an Iran war. Israel has no choice if it wants a war with Iran. And they definitely want that war.

And before the Iranian idiot weighs in, let me point out that nothing he says about an Iran war is even remotely relevant. He fantasizes that Russia and/or China would get involved militarily directly, which ain't gonna happen. As I said with regard to Iran and Syria above, Russia and China might sell Iran weapons and give them intelligence support, but that's the extent of it.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 30 2020 13:37 utc | 252

Nathan Mulcahy @250: "Raise your hand - if anyone is [an angel]...."

You are right. I once left my car parked in a spot after the parking meter expired. That's almost like breaking into someone's home and threatening them with a gun, right?

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 13:42 utc | 253

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 30 2020 11:48 utc | 240

I am not sure what you are referring to. Martin Luther King was not only about "black lives matter". He was about ALL lives mattering.

That is why he was murdered.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Jun 30 2020 13:45 utc | 254

Blue Dotterel @254

Yes, that is why MLK was assassinated.

While Malcolm X never really cared about non-Blacks, he did discover that the enemy was the capitalist system and it would take white working class and Black working class fighting on the same side to defeat that enemy. That discovery likewise resulted in the establishment deciding they had to kill him.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 13:55 utc | 255


I have been wondering who called the medics and the ambulance to the site of George Floyd's death. If the police knew he was sick or dying, why did they keep restraining him?

It appears it is standard operating procedure in Minneapolis and much of the United State to seduce suspects with ketamine. For this the police need the medics. (This is ethical issue number 1. Doctors should only apply medicine to treat patients.)

As George Floyd Died, Officer Wondered About “Excited Delirium”

Minneapolis police have a controversial history involving excited delirium. An independent review commissioned by the city attorney found that between 2016 and 2018, officers were deciding that some people they encountered had excited delirium, apparently without consulting medical experts. According to the Minneapolis Star Tribune, police would ask that emergency medical personnel use the powerful sedative ketamine on people—at times against their will and while they appeared to be restrained, or in some cases, when they were not accused of committing a crime. Some people stopped breathing after getting injected and had to be put on a ventilator.

When people die in the United States after police use of force, it is often claimed to be a result "excited delirium". Such diagnosis only exists in the US and lacks a scientific or medical basis. (This is ethical issue number 2. Doctors should not invent fake a diagnosis to defend the police.)

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jun 30 2020 13:57 utc | 256

@ Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 13:36 utc | 251

Yeah, sure. Everybody dies someday. It's the circumstances of one's death that is political, not the death itself (as death is a fact of life).

Floyd wasn't killed while trying to invade someone else's property. He was killed in a public space, under an alleged accusation of using a forged USD 20 bill.

Even if his crime was death penalty worthy, it isn't in the cop's role to apply the sentence. Cop isn't a judge.

Posted by: vk | Jun 30 2020 13:59 utc | 257

Well the relevant question seems to be the flwg:
Is there any n.e.e.d of Russians or anyone else to take the trouble of convincing, I said, convincing let alone funding, the Taliban to punch and burn the heck of the US ass in Afghanistan?

Posted by: augusto | Jun 30 2020 14:00 utc | 258

vk @257: " isn't in the cop's role to apply the sentence. Cop isn't a judge."

Yep, that's the rules anyway. I wonder if the capitalists will change the rules or force their enforcers to obey the rules as they are? I cannot wait to see how they handle this!

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 14:07 utc | 259

Israel is in a bit of a pickle. It wants to advance it's agenda and there may never be a better time to do so politically. With all the distractions of covid and very possible smokescreen of a heavy tussle in Libya. Biden may lick Israel's hole but not as well or as deep as the Don of Orange. Donny needs a successful war if he's gonna get that second term or a new Trump tower over looking the wailing Wall.
Oh but the but.....they would have to go all in. No fucking around all in. Call everyone up n give em a rifle, extended line and shoot anything that moves and don't stop til Afghanistan all in.
They of course won't and if bogged down for any length of time might end up being their ruin.
Depends on how enthusiastic the us or Saudis feel about a big ol' war.
Lebanon will be flooded with money to try and create rifts and in fighting but I expect the unexpected in the near future. An half disguised attempt repeated ad nauseum by mass media. False flag of a sort... weapons of mass distraction...
The status quo suits Hezbollah and Iran just fine but the Israeli end timer alliance r getting antsy pantsy.

Posted by: PleaseBeleafMe | Jun 30 2020 14:12 utc | 260

Blue dotterel @ 254
Thanks, you make my point for me.
If a black leader preaching peace and unity gets assassinated on a stage in front of a large audience
. What would be the point of - ‘Black Lifes Matter’ or ‘Antifa ‘ appointing leaders ?
We are finally learning that lesson ‘ Anonamouse’ never had leaders and were ‘automonus’ but were hijacked by right wing and psycop accounts. Ditto the U.K. Labour Party.
It’s the swap we swim in unfortunately. But don’t assume we don’t learn. It’s called realism !
The above fact has consequences the right wing seems incapable of realising, namily white deaths some inocent.
Empathy is the salution not weapons.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 30 2020 14:18 utc | 261

You cannot defeat the assassination of your leader by not having leaders. You defeat it by making ALL of your class leaders, or at least as many as you can. If they kill one, then two will step forward in his or her place. Of killing or just character assassinating like they did with Corbyn won't harm your movement, then they are less likely to bother with the assassination.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 14:32 utc | 262

William Gruff
First I need to say you are one of the top ten of my most respected ‘go to’ commenters’
We can all be misinformed by the pressure and onslaught from the right wing media.
Please listen to the lyrics on the following link ! Very carefully.

It describes the reality of what we discusse here.
I post it as a balence!

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 30 2020 14:41 utc | 263

"and that is why it is ALWAYS a very bad idea to teach your kids that even sometimes it is OK to rob people's homes."

Gruffy, I don't recall teaching my kids that it is a bad idea to rob people's homes however I'm quite sure they never have tried. I daresay that is probably true in almost every family.
Seems to me that somehow you are equating home invasions with parents who did not stand their kids up against the wall and drive it into their skulls of how bad an idea that was.
This seems to indicate that all kids want to invade other's homes and only the above or a gun will fix this inherent problem.

Posted by: arby | Jun 30 2020 14:42 utc | 264

arby @264

I thought I was somewhat less than opaque about suggesting that it is a parent's behavior that teaches these things, not lectures. My initial comment was that my neighbor, who is a parent, was trivializing home invasions not with her words but with her behavior.

Here's the difference: When my parents heard about a home break-in, they would show their concern for the residents of the invaded home and express dismay at what a terrible experience that family must have had. If they concerned themselves with the invader at all it would be to wonder how anyone could be that awful.

My neighbor's first concern, on the other hand, is about the well-being of the invader, while the trauma the home residents experienced is completely dismissed.

These behaviors by parents do far more to inform their children on acceptable behavior than do any amount of lecturing.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 15:02 utc | 265

“And before the Iranian idiot weighs in, let me point out that nothing he says about an Iran war is even remotely relevant. He fantasizes that Russia and/or China would get involved militarily directly, which ain't gonna happen. As I said with regard to Iran and Syria above, Russia and China might sell Iran weapons and give them intelligence support, but that's the extent of it.”

Moi? An idiot? Trying to get more licks out of that stolen lollipop, huh?
I see there are more conditions/ if, then, elses now, before the the ‘War’ starts.

For the bar: this is the kind of stealing that I’m OK with. With dreams shattered, psychological torture ensues.

This, is what this idiot — moi — had to say. Remember, it’s a rule now. Anytime you want to predict a ‘War With Iran’ you have to cut and paste it, and start your argument from there, you end-of-timer ideologue.

Here is where the cut and paste starts. You do cut and paste well, don’t you? Lacking your own thoughts, that is.

The problem of ‘The war with Iran’ IS NOT ‘The war with Iran.’
The problem of ‘The war with Iran’ IS ‘How to stop — The war with Iran?’
Surely, Iran will fight to a nuclear death if it has to. Once a nuke is detonated over Tehran, follow up runs will be, on Isfahan, Mashhad, and Shiraz. From there, Moscow, St. Petersburg, Beijing, and Shanghai.
Whomever advocates for this, is advocating for end times. Nuclear annihilation of the planet. Rapture, that is.

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | Jun 30 2020 15:19 utc | 266

First the Bolivian coup rejects Cuban Doctors

And Now they have

collapsing hospitals

Posted by: arby | Jun 30 2020 15:22 utc | 267

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 30 2020 13:37 utc | 252

I think your assumption that Iran/Syria will stand by while Uncle Sugar & Israel team up on Hezbollah is quite mistaken. We could sit here rehearsing the arguments all day, but there seems no way to prove it one way or another, it depends on whom one thinks is making empty threats. I think Iran would promptly set large parts of the Middle East on fire, starting with Tel Aviv & Riyadh & assorted US bases now ringing Iran. Time will tell. But thanks for the response.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 30 2020 15:22 utc | 268

WhoEverTheFhak said: " The idea that a home is some sort of castle rather than just a place to eat sleep & shit, lies at the heart of capitalist excess."
I sincerely hope you have the oportunity to put this thesis to the test. Many states in the USA have something called the Castle Doctrine. It is not being back up against the wall, it is not Standing Your Ground, it is defending your home and your life. This is a basic animal instinct and the neoliberal nanny state would have this stipped from our behavioral library. Frankly I regard all the posters picking away at Mr. Gruff with contempt. You are all welcome to be unarmed emascualted pansies and crimimal appologists, and will likely behave like the snivelling cowards you are when the time comes. Those of us that choose to protect ourselves will continue to do so despite attmets to disarm the population.
Weapons are tools and have been force multiplies and equalizers for centuries. I can just imagine y'all decrying the use of swords and bows as the Mongols rolled over your village. So what would you do now? Ask someone else to defend you? Better yet you could get an army of armed goons to confiscate other peoples weapons for you because you fins them so distasteful...? It should now be completely clear that nobody will provide protection in a WORL situation. The cops wont and are not required to as per the SCOTUS. So keep on talking shit, ridiculing armed citizens and enjoy being prey.

Posted by: Chevrus | Jun 30 2020 16:00 utc | 269

@ 210 william gruff... thanks... i like the ideal you aspire to and hope it comes about sooner then later..

@ 213 dh... of course it is fear, but there is also a cultural aspect to it which some of the people in the usa seem oblivious to as well... that is the part i was trying to get at... it is a different culture in canada in this regard.. as a consequence it feels automatically a wee bit safer... as for the island here - you'd be surprised or not to know we have had our car stolen from the driveway, people coming into the backyard and stealing stuff and there is no shortage of petty crime where we live... however, the response is not to immediately murder someone with a gun... i think that is the big difference at present... mind you, there are some who would like to be more like the usa.. they are still in a minority thankfully...the conservative party in canada seems to attract them...

Posted by: james | Jun 30 2020 16:17 utc | 270

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 30 2020 14:18 utc | 261

Well, your point wasn't very clear to begin with, so I am happy to have helped you out.

But WG is correct in that you do need leaders of a sort, hopefully, to get a coherent message out to others, and maybe set a strategy.

One of the problems with BLM and antifa is that they operate through violence, real and/or perceived. This and BLM's perceived narrow stance on "race" demonstrating a racist attitude toward "whites" creates a possible misperception that works right into the establishment's strategy - keeping society divided to control it.

MLK's movement had a coherent message and that message was clearly all inclusive. Even the panther's Fred Hampton, whom I quoted on a previous thread had a clear message, and I quote again:

"We got to face some facts. That the masses are poor, that the masses belong to what you call the lower class, and when I talk about the masses, I’m talking about the white masses, I’m talking about the black masses, and the brown masses, and the yellow masses, too.
We’ve got to face the fact that some people say you fight fire best with fire, but we say you put fire out best with water. We say you don’t fight racism with racism. We’re gonna fight racism with solidarity. We say you don’t fight capitalism with no black capitalism; you fight capitalism with socialism"

Hampton was also murdered by the police.

I hear nothing really about the ongoing class war from BLM or Antifa. All, I cerceive is that they esstentially attack the masses, themselves. The establishment couldn't have more useful idiots. They even mock them by taking a knee.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Jun 30 2020 16:19 utc | 271

Wow, Guns R US. Scary.

To see little punks and drug addicts as THE ENEMY is deep rooted I see. I have even read boards where people are just itching to have open season on the black ENEMY as well.

I am not defending these peoples right to steal however the sound I see on many boards that Americans frequent is an over the top worship of guns and a paranoid thought that they are surrounded by enemies.

Maybe more guns are the answer. Seems that is always the recommended thing.

Posted by: arby | Jun 30 2020 16:24 utc | 272

spoken like a typical american offering contempt for anyone who doesn't share the same view.... why am i not surprised.... no wonder the usa is so polarized... it breeds an atmosphere of hostility, as opposed to understanding and many are absolutely fine with that...

Posted by: james | Jun 30 2020 16:24 utc | 273

@ Posted by: Chevrus | Jun 30 2020 16:00 utc | 269

You need to be a special kind of degenerate to call neoliberalism a "nanny state".

But regardless of that, yes, I agree in part with the spirit of your argument: in a system dominated by private property (which is the case of capitalism), in an area sparely populated, it is inevitable for the owner of the property to be armed. This is a purely practical issue, emanated from geographical factors.

However, it doesn't make any sense for a citizen to be armed in heavy populated urban centers. Imagine if you live in an apartment build and has a gun: you could shoot upwards or downwards and kill your neighbor. In that case, owning a fire arm is unproductive, as it directly hurts the right to own property (in this case, an apartment). Apartment buildings already are natural fortresses against the common bandit, there's no need to own a firearm inside one. In rural areas, where collateral effects are minimal and police force is scarce, it's another story.

Posted by: vk | Jun 30 2020 16:41 utc | 274

I do not offer contempt to ANYBODY who doesnt share my view. I offer contempt to you, very specifically. You can ascribe whatever slanderous assumptions you like while not addressing anything I said directly, no harm done. You may live in a country that offers to make blunt steak knives, but in the USA criminals are armed. As I stated: weapons are tools that get used. So tell me, who gets to use weapons systems? Me but not thee? Only government troops? Only police? Only criminals?
Granted I was writing in a somewhat inflammatory style, so I expected the pushback. But tell me what you really think, James and Arby....Ok Guns are scary, got it. USAns worship them and are eager to kill perps, got it. Care to look at the FBI statistics on who does the crimes or are the emotional responses all that are needed? The USA is polarized because of......guns? Having a Red Blue BiPolar uniparty is most likely a greater factor. For the amount of firearms in the USA there is surprisingly little death.
Bicycles have a higher fatality rate than rifles. Where do you live James? I've lived on all three coasts in the USA. In the deep South everyone is armed and people are very polite. I support other peoples right to choose emascuation and it's fitting they should leave well enough alone those that choose to arm themselves.

Posted by: Chevrus | Jun 30 2020 16:42 utc | 275

A User @ 214, your anecdotes were my first read today, and thank you very much. I grew up in an 'Aotearoa' (it was not often called that then, but I love it, and the national anthem sounds so much more beautiful in maori than in English) that misprounounced maori words with abandon, so that is how I called the beautiful names that were at least kept as far as we knew them, until my family left home when I was a teenager and came to the US of A. I later learned that the little town in which I was born was named as being a birdway crossing between the two harbours spanning the first capital, Auckland. Must be why I have come and gone so many times in my life.

Your story has relevance on several counts. First, the Aotearoa I left had been drug free - a huge advantage to me in my early years. Also, single parent families were well treated there when I too became a single parent and needed to be helped later on. And again, the police system had not yet invaded the schools which were so friendly to my 'yank' children at the time we were there that their early years also were positive ones.

It's not rocket science. Drugs, even the ones that some adults think are okay fine, are medicines. They are not to be used or promoted recreationally ---because of the great harm they do to our younger generation!!! And yet I see even folk I admire for their attention to societal improvement letting us in on their own recreational habits. Please, if you have to indulge, don't boast about it here! Those of us who are parents, and particularly the single ones who have a mighty big row to hoe, do not appreciate it. It really isn't cool. You may be able to handle it; young minds can't. And especially if you are yourself so inclined, don't suggest that a young person going out of his mind in helpless addiction is a target for assassination.

A User has a good memory of how he handled his own home invasions. What sort of memory will you carry for the rest of your life if you shoot a young person, no matter what his crime? It will cripple you for the rest of your days to do such a thing, just as it cripples soldiers in wars that should never have happened. We are hardwired that way; it's in our dna.

Posted by: juliania | Jun 30 2020 16:44 utc | 276

Thank you, Richard Steven Hack @ 220. It is truly frightening that even in New Mexico the 'rules of the road' have been slackened, so that one can feel the increased tension even as we do the mandatory shopping trip for food twice a month. The warning about the time lag is definitely the statistic to watch. I personally don't feel that numbers of cases are the operative number to be concerned about, although it would be very nice to see that number start to diminish in the US, if the same or greater numbers of people are still being tested.

Unfortunately, the vaccine issue is still not sufficiently grounded for many of us to feel it is well supported. I do remember how important it was to have the polio vaccine. We had a lot more faith in the system back then; times are very different now.

Posted by: juliania | Jun 30 2020 17:00 utc | 277

Apparently the children of India were less happy about the polio vaccine.....

Posted by: Chevrus | Jun 30 2020 17:10 utc | 278

@272 This paranoia of which you speak may be simply a human characteristic. As cave dwellers we were no doubt wary of wandering bands looking for caves.

The American variety may go back to the early days of colonisation when settlers saw the environment as hostile.

Slightly of topic but I have just finished "Mayflower' by Nathaniel Philbrick where he gives a detailed account of how native/settler relations developed...friendly at first and resulting eventually in all out war (King Philip's War).

Posted by: dh | Jun 30 2020 17:10 utc | 279

@james and arby,

when you fully appreciate the broken health care/mental health systems in the US, and when you understand the circulation of drugs and the complicity of those who are supposed to protect and serve, and when you have direct experiences with unstable people, you make a logical determination to buy a gun and learn how to use it.

I have a permanent order of protection against a guy sitting in our county lock-up because he attacked me and then threatened to kill me in front of medical staff. this guy has also threatened to kill judges in Washington state. I have had knives pulled on me. I had an order of protection on a schizophrenic woman who thought I was her kid. she somehow got my home address where I used to live and sent me dozens of letters.

I didn't grow up with guns, but with a depression coming and more social unrest coming and food scarcity coming if you don't at least own a rifle, you won't survive long.

Posted by: lizard | Jun 30 2020 17:18 utc | 280

@ vk "A special kind of degenerate" Has a nice ring to it, I trust it is a well worn phrase for you.
For the record I was not advocating discharging any and all firearms in crowded living conditions. Just wanted to clear that up lest we catch any straw men on fire.

Posted by: Chevrus | Jun 30 2020 17:20 utc | 281

I offer two pieces of evidence as to why Russia will never be defeated: Rzhev Memorial and speeches and Putin's Address to Russian People made from Rzhev Memorial. And here's a third bit if you've never seen it, Mamayev Kurgan, the Memorial at Stalingrad.

Tomorrow, Russians will vote on amendments to their Constitution. The following is what Putin said to his nation about the coming vote:

"We are not just going to vote on amendments that have been clearly formulated as legal norms. We are going to vote for the country where we want to live, with cutting-edge education and healthcare, a reliable system of social protection and an effective government accountable to the people. We are going to vote for a country to the benefit of which we have been working and which we would like to pass on to our children and grandchildren.

"Therefore, I have no doubt that every one of us, while taking this important decision, will be thinking about their near and dear ones, as well as about the values that keep us together – respect for professionals, senior citizens, our families and children, their health as well as moral and spiritual education.

"These amendments to the Fundamental Law, provided you approve them, will formalise these values and principles as supreme and indisputable constitutional guarantees.

"Stability, security, wellbeing and a decent life for our people can only be guaranteed through our development, and we alone can do this by acting together. The sovereignty of Russia depends on our responsibility and our sincere feeling of patriotism and concern for the country, as well as on respect for our history, culture, our language and traditions, and our remembrance of the achievements and accomplishments of our forefathers."

And the only answer the Outlaw US Empire and its NATO vassals have is a neverending stream of lies as their Financial Parasites drain the wealth and vitality from their collective nations.

It's not so much that I revere Russia. Rather it's because I loath to the nth degree what the American Citizenry have allowed their nation to become. Their social nature is such that the events that fostered the erection of the memorial complexes at Mamayev Kurgan and Rzhev would never have occurred for the collective will to mount a pair of such defenses was absent then and now. America's House has long been Divided and remains so whereas Russia with its 100+ ethnicities stands steadfast as one.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 30 2020 17:33 utc | 282


"Apparently the children of India were less happy about the polio vaccine....."

I'll be kind to you and respond. Obviously in my post I was referring to the original polio vaccine when it first came out. As I said, times are different now, and the sad cases of contamination in India simply buttress my point.

You are on notice as misrepresenting my post.

Posted by: juliania | Jun 30 2020 17:40 utc | 283

The US black population is fully aware of how White Americans rob and murder in other country’s and have empathy due to their own history.
Bare that in mind before you decided who the perpetrator and who the victem. Some here should know better.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 30 2020 17:56 utc | 284

"What sort of memory will you carry for the rest of your life if you shoot a young person, no matter what his crime? It will cripple you for the rest of your days to do such a thing..."

Absolutely! A truly terrible experience no matter how you look at it.

What would be an even worse experience, though, is for the home defender to not get the first shot, and for that first shot to not be one that disables the intruder. I've have seen evidence that being shot by an intruder can be very crippling as well. After all, the realistic assumption that the home defender must make when awakened in the middle of the night by a stranger entering their home is that the stranger is armed and means them harm. Of course, people from more sheltered environments might say that if the home dweller were not armed, then perhaps the invader will then choose not to be armed either. Fantasy worlds are pleasant like that.

As an aside, I recall one of the times I visited relatives in Ireland. When planning over the phone to meet up, they asked where in Dublin I was staying. When I gave them the address of the cheap hostel I was at they flew into a panic, exclaiming how terrible was the side of town I happened to be on. Expressing deep concern for my safety they demanded that I not venture out the door of the hostel and that they would soon arrive to pick me up.

I never did tell them that I had already been in that hostel for a few days and had thoroughly explored that neighborhood and adjacent ones. That I had already investigated the darkest and most dangerous corners that Ireland had to offer would probably shock their poor sheltered hearts.

I always knew that there were people even more sheltered than ones who assume neighborhoods where they might be exposed to coarse language were terribly dangerous.

Just so that the reader knows, when someone is breaking into your home in America, "the rest of your life" might be quite brief indeed. A long life wondering if you might have been able to handle the situation better versus a few fleeting moments before the intruder's bullet shatters your skull... apparently that is a difficult choice for some people.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 17:56 utc | 285

@ 275 chevrus / @280 lizard.. you ask a lot of questions chevrus.. i think this is a good thing, especially on the downward spiral you find yourself on.. i hope you keep on asking questions on yourself, as opposed to getting in a locked in position inflexible to alternative views.. i don't have the answers for you.. i have them for myself... i wish you both the best of luck with the guns as the answer to what ails you in the usa... it isn't a resolution that works for me where i live... in fact, it isn't a resolution i would put much faith in, not to mention how i wouldn't want to live in that situation... i live close to bears and cougars... i walk in the same area as them.. i don't carry a gun... they are a part of nature and my response is not to carry a gun every time i walk in the terrain that belongs to them as much as it belongs to me..

people need to find the answer for themselves for where they find themselves in although as i see it certain choices breed paranoia and are healthy choices as i see it... regards..

Posted by: james | Jun 30 2020 17:56 utc | 286

lizard@ 280:

"...I didn't grow up with guns, but with a depression coming and more social unrest coming and food scarcity coming if you don't at least own a rifle, you won't survive long."

Even in a depression, with food scarcity, it is possible to survive without guns. Many communities did so in the US, and apparently your childhood was gun free, so you benefited from your parents' peacefulness then. And even if it seems we are in for dark times, much depends on the kinds of sacrifices you feel willing to commit to, so be aware of the risks. Certainly MLK and others who have died were aware of the risks. And they felt it was worth it, in order to live a full life. They were not wrong.

There are always risks. The point is, you have one life and it is a short one regardless. Make it count. They did.

Posted by: juliania | Jun 30 2020 17:57 utc | 287

are- aren't..

Posted by: james | Jun 30 2020 17:57 utc | 288

@ jullianna Mentioning polio vaccines in a context other than the one you posted is not misinterpretation. Thanks for responding although I’m note sure I’d call it ‘kindness’’
How exactly am I on notice? Are you in possession of administrative right on this forum?

Posted by: Chevrus | Jun 30 2020 18:09 utc | 289

One thing I now see on the morning news almost everyday in the GTA (greater Toronto Area) is shootings, shots fired, and gun deaths. This was not so a few years ago.
I attribute a lot of this to our closeness to the US and the massive amount of guns available very near by.
I have read stories of how the DEA in a brilliant move flooded Mexico with guns and with that came a horrendous amount of killings and armed violence.

On the other hand I have read where Australia cracked down on guns and severely limited their access and guess what, Murders and gun violence plummeted.
Fortunately for Australia the supply is thousands of miles away.

Posted by: arby | Jun 30 2020 18:19 utc | 290

I think the way it works is that by @jullianna brining it to our attention, your credibility decreases the next time you post here.
Kinda like the troll that quoted me out of context to get his point across.

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | Jun 30 2020 18:23 utc | 291


"...It's not so much that I revere Russia. Rather it's because I loath to the nth degree what the American Citizenry have allowed their nation to become. Their social nature is such that the events that fostered the erection of the memorial complexes at Mamayev Kurgan and Rzhev would never have occurred for the collective will to mount a pair of such defenses was absent then and now. America's House has long been Divided and remains so whereas Russia with its 100+ ethnicities stands steadfast as one."

Respectfully, I will disagree. What occurred for Russia did occur in part for the US after Pearl Harbor. And lest you tell us about all the inequities and malfeasance that was occurring in the US at the time of Pearl Harbor, Putin would tell you as well there were many such occurring in the USSR, and even more corrupt practises against the people there, before they were faced with the greater danger of invasion. Every country had its warts and imperfections laid bare when that war came upon them.

The USA has never been invaded, unless you count the earliest invasions of Europeans upon a land already populated by native communities. Those earlier invasions resulted in tragedies of major proportions for the indigenous peoples, and were not successfully resisted. So it happened also in Russia. If you go that far back, we are very similar.

But undergoing invasion, and successfully countering it, Russia itself is like the many strains of diversity which it contains. And like steel, it was forged through the success of countering that last great battle against invaders as an amalgam of diverse communities. The US has never, NEVER, had to do that. We are not steel in that way. But that is not the fault of its peoples. We are still awaiting the fire. It doesn't have to come through war; in fact, it looks like it will come through a miniscule virus.

The world doesn't need to invade; it is we who are at the brink of an apocalypse, a conflagration. We are about to be tested...And then, after that, maybe we too will have a nation of steel. I truly hope we will; it is what the good leaders, when we had them, were urging upon us.

Posted by: juliania | Jun 30 2020 18:31 utc | 292

@ 291 Sakineh Bagoom.. that is exactly how i see it too.... either we'e a community that can have communication with one another and are genuinely curious of alternative views, or we aren't... mischaracterizing others is not the way forward.. in so much as any of us do this - and it is worth reflecting on for all of us - we take away from the community we wish to be a part of..

Posted by: james | Jun 30 2020 18:37 utc | 293

What's known as the Age of Discovery and Colonization ought to be called the Age of the Global Home Invasion for that's exactly what occurred. Europeans invaded the homes of the native peoples in the Western Hemisphere, Oceania, Africa and Asia, all legally justified by a series of Papal Bulls as I've pointed out several times. This made the resulting "Settler Societies" and Colonizers vastly different from those from whence they came; for although exonerated from the crime they committed, they still carried the moral stigma and a type of PTSD for doing what was done that afflicts those societies today. African Americans are present within the Western Hemisphere because their parents were kidnapped from their homes. Native Americans are confined to Bantustans called Reservations after their initial homeland was invaded and they were ousted. Not all Europeans who came to the Western Hemisphere are guilty of the original crime but they continue to abet it nonetheless by not even being brave enough to admit it and attempt to rectify it--and it's that which forms the basis for division within the polity. And it's not just the USA that suffers from that cowardly behavior, but every nation in the Western Hemisphere and the colonized lands in Oceania. Africa as victim has a different problem as do the formerly colonized Asian nations. But I'm writing about the nations within the Western Hemisphere who continue to live with and profit from their initial crime daily.

When a nation refuses to acknowledge it's the result of a horrendous crime, how can we expect its citizenry to do so? And we happen to have multiple horrendous crimes--each a Holocaust--that goes unadmitted but very well known. And the USA claims to be a "Civilizational State" like China and Russia--Bull Shit! The crimes committed to "make" the USA make those supposedly done by Lenin, Mao, Stalin pale in significance--they did nothing anywhere near comparable, although the Nazis did. And who does the Outlaw US Empire revive to threaten Russia--Nazis. I submit there's a connection.

So here we have an interesting scenario: A Native American of the Cherokee tribe invades the home of any white person demanding it be given to him in exchange for the one stolen from his ancestors. Or we can change the scenario to an African-American invading a home owned by a white person demanding it be forfeited as restitution for the kidnapping and genocide visited upon his ancestors. IMO, the white folk have no moral/ethical grounds to stand on. But what about the African and Native; aren't they amidst the moral dilemma of two wrongs not making a right? Time can't be turned back in an effort to undo the past crimes, so what's the solution? And we must come to a solution, otherwise genuine solidarity will never occur within the Western Hemisphere at the moment it's most needed.

IMO, first and foremost the crimes must be admitted by governments at all levels within the Western Hemispheric nations and the Papal Bulls upon which rests the legal rationales for ongoing taking must be repudiated and purged from everything related to legality in all nations. Second, genuine--not artificial--atonement must take place within each society and healing initiated. Then some amount/form of restitution must be made to the survivors of the crimes. And yes, the issue will get complicated by those whose ancestors were sentenced to Transportation and forcibly delivered to the shores on which they landed not much different from Africans and other enslaved peoples. (Yes, Australia has a very big problem.)

If humanity can withstand the Climate Crisis it's made for itself, then it might be capable of becoming One IF the above crimes can finally be resolved. But that will require a set of leaders far more capable than the current crop on hand, and a public that's actually informed instead of constantly lied to.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 30 2020 18:55 utc | 294

juliania @292--

We'll just have to disagree. The Japanese didn't ever have any thoughts of invasion whereas the Nazis already had many allies in high places in both the UK and USA. FDR's Four Freedoms might have been seen by minorities as ideals to defend--IF--they also possessed them, which they did not. California serves as an excellent bad example in that regard, and it wasn't alone. The War at Home is propagandized as quite harmonious with Rosie the Riveter and such, but reality was very different--there were "race" riots during the war not just aimed at Africans. In the case of the Zoot Suit Riots in Los Angeles that targeted Hispanics, they were sponsored by the US military and LAPD.

You have much to learn about the nation in which you chose to emigrate.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 30 2020 19:13 utc | 295

@294 Where does somebody like Genghiz Khan fit into that? I tend to think people were invading each others land long before the Pope gave them permission. Native N. American, African and Asian tribes were raiding each other for pleasure and profit long before the Europeans arrived. But I'll admit the Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch, French and English had the edge when it came to ships and weapons.

Posted by: dh | Jun 30 2020 19:16 utc | 296

William Gruff@ 285:

"...After all, the realistic assumption that the home defender must make when awakened in the middle of the night by a stranger entering their home is that the stranger is armed and means them harm. Of course, people from more sheltered environments might say that if the home dweller were not armed, then perhaps the invader will then choose not to be armed either. Fantasy worlds are pleasant like that..."

I suppose it depends on whose scenario is the more realistic of the two. Yet apparently you did not feel as affrighted as your relatives in Ireland because you had already, rifle or glock in hand I presume, explored the darkest regions surrounding your hostel, deterring or disabling many a would be assailant as you went. Aha! No wonder Ireland is a peaceful place today!

We, however, who have not done what you have - we who can't handle the truth but yet are home owners, now must don the mantle of the swashbuckler and, awoken from a peaceful sleep, unerringly wield his or her weapon of choice to disable a shadowy invader? I'd rather not, thanks, even if it should mean my immediate demise. Maybe I'll shuffle off this mortal coil, or maybe the kid who's sneaking about, affrighted equally by my stirring form, makes a speedy getaway.

I'd rather that, given a choice.

Posted by: juliania | Jun 30 2020 19:28 utc | 297

Oh, and just so that hypothetical kid gets his hypothetical risk evaluated properly, as a home owner I've got plenty of nothing, and nothing's plenty for me...

Posted by: juliania | Jun 30 2020 19:32 utc | 298

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 30 2020 18:55 utc | 294

The problem I have with this slavery issue is that it was commonplace until the early part of the 19th century in most parts of the world including China and in Islamic states, even in Africa where it was only abolished in Ghana in 1875. And this was Africans enslaving Africans, as well as non-Africans. In fact many African slaves sent to the New World were captured and sold to the Brits, Spanish and Portuguese by Africans usually captured in wars with other African tribes. And, of course, the caste system in South Asia had/has all the hallmarks of slavery under another name.

Of course, through most of history slaves were those captured in war. Why should Western "civilization" be the only "civilation" to have to atone for enslaving people when it was globally commonplace until recently in hisrorical terms. Is it beause European "civilization" was the most recent successful imperialist "civilization", conquering the known world?

All slavery is abhorrent. It has no place in the 21st century. The issue is not to impose a Versailles like reparations today on people who do not, and have not kept slaves in their life times, thus compounding a crime against humanity, but resolving those genuine issues that prepetuate poverty and ignorance in many countries through the class wars conducted on the masses by the global establishment. There are real injustices today in the US, and one is not slavery. The treatment of the indigenous peoples in the Americas is one of those ongoing gross injustices.

African Americans and "peoples of colour" are still descriminated against because of their ethnic heritage, but they are not enslaved. This "racism" clearly benefits the current establishment, and it needs to be dealt with in an extension of the movement of MLK. It is being abetted by BLM, antifa, and people fixated on reparation for distant injustices.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Jun 30 2020 19:42 utc | 299

juliania @297

An older couple was murdered by home invaders in my town late last year. They probably thought much as you do. I wonder if they felt bad for saddling that poor home invader with the lifelong guilt of having killed people? Maybe they could have saved that poor soul the enduring guilt by killing themselves instead! I think that would have been a true show of compassion.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 30 2020 19:44 utc | 300

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