Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 9, 2020
How To Change The Meaning Of Monuments Without Removing Them

On Sunday protesters toppled a bronze statue of the 17th-century slave trader Edward Colston in Bristol, England. It was thrown into a river. Some had tried for years to get rid of the monument but others had rejected that as Colston had also donated a lot for various local social purposes. Some of the institutions he had supported still exist.

In the U.S. there are many discussions about removing memorials and statues of people who had fought in support of slavery during the civil war.

But when and where is it right to remove the memorials our ancestors erected?

When the Taliban destroyed a large Buddha statue figure in Bamyan, Afghanistan, there was a global outrage. The U.S. toppled Saddam Hussein statues in Baghdad to some applause but also as an act of propaganda. After the Nazi-led Maidan putsch the Ukraine removed many statues of Lenin and erected some new ones which glorify fascists. Czechia is currently in a struggle with Russia over the potential removal of a memorial that hails Soviet troops for liberating the country from the fascist German occupation.

Which of these removals were right or wrong? To whom?

What about statues of George Washington, the slave owner, or of Winston Churchill, the mass murderer and utter racist. Should they all be taken down? What about John Stuart Mill?

How will future children learn about the bad sides of those men if they go down the memory holes of history?

Where does such iconoclasm end?

Here is a concept that may help to avoid conflicts over such memorials.

The German language has two different words for memorials:

  • A 'Denkmal' is a memorial of a historic incident, period or figure. It is generally seen as honorific. Its linguistic root is the verb 'denken' which means 'to think' combined with the noun 'Mal' which means 'mark'.
  • A 'Mahnmal' is also a memorial of a historic incident, period or figure. But its purpose is to serve as a lesson or warning. Its linguistic root is 'mahnen' which means 'to urge' 'to exhort' 'to admonish' again combined with 'Mal' which means "mark".

A memorial that was once erected as a 'think-mark' can be turned into an 'exhort-mark' by changing its context.

A famous example is the memorial for the 76th Infantry Regiment in Hamburg, Germany. During the first world war the 76th had been recruited in Hamburg and fought with great losses at the western front. A memorial for its soldiers was only built in 1936 when the Nazis  ruled in Germany.


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The memorial shows marching soldiers. The inscription above the soldiers means "Germany must live even if we must die".



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The main purpose of the memorial at the time of its creation was obviously not to remember the soldiers of the 76th but to propagandize for the new wars the Nazis were planing and preparing for.

After the second world war there were many discussions if the memorial should be removed or not. One side saw it as glorifying war while the other side saw it as a honorable reminder of the soldiers of the 76th who were children of the city. Both sides were objectively right.

In the early 1980s a compromise was found. The memorial would stay but it would be amended with a second one a few steps away. This would turn the whole ensemble from a 'Denkmal' into a 'Mahnmal'.

The Austrian sculptor Alfred Hrdlicka was hired to create a counterpoint to the war glorifying memorial. His work depicts the horrors of war and includes a reference to the Operation Gomorrah bombing in July 1943 which had killed some 35,000 civilians in Hamburg.


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There have been other conversions from 'Denkmal' to 'Mahnmal' in several places. Sometimes by just adding a bronze plaque with words that describe the historic context of the original 'Denkmal' or which explains that the good man depicted also had quite bad sides.

Artists will come up with better ideas for such purposes. Ask them to do so.

The controversial monuments should be reminders that we must learn and teach history in a way that is not one sided or glorifying. Setting them into context or countering them with new art is a better way to do that than to just throw them aside.

 

Comments

hoarsewhisperer alludes to a post by craig murray… here it is for anyone interested..
Ultimately, All Monuments are Ozymandias

Posted by: james | Jun 10 2020 6:12 utc | 101

re Mark2 | Jun 10 2020 4:31 utc | 96
I don’t disagree with your point that it was the horrific deliberate murder of George Floyd which triggered the current round of attacks on statues of slavers Mark2, but don’t you reckon that is a cop out?
I hate the very concept of a statue of one human who is lauded for something which good or evil was most certainly a joint effort, and I particularly dislike those statues which appear designed to make some citizens (eg african-americans in amerika) feel they don’t belong in their homeland, but I am concerned that by bringing this issue up now, the net result will be to diffuse the energy which needs to be put into contemporary institutional racism.
This is especially true in england where both the media & neolib politicians are trumpeting the removal of a couple of statues as a ‘win’ for BLM. In my mind that means they are probably trying to reduce the forcefulness of demands that the englander police stop targeting unwhites esp afro-caribbean descendants.
If that is the case the result is a loss for BLM not a win. Differences in policing styles does mean that the odds of an unwhite bloke getting killed by a copper in england are somewhat less but as you know, it does happen. The other racist acts are at least as prevalent IMO in england as amerika. eg absolutely destroying everything in someone’s house during a ‘search’ or when ‘team policing’ WTF that means, is about concentrating on a disproportionate number of black & brown citizens as ‘target suspects’.
Of course the classic “any unwhite will do” act was back in 2007 when current Chief Constable of the Met, Cressida Dick sanctioned the police murder of Brazilian electrician Jean Charles de Menezes for the crime of being brown during a post terrorism panic.
Cressida Dick made the call for this innocent to be assassinated, and when she got caught out tried to claim she didn’t, that she was out taking a piss at the time.
Not only did she not get punished, she was promoted to the top cop job in england!
So IMO there is a lot of work englander coppers need to do on racism and as much as I would like to see every statue of every sleazy pol, grifter and warmonger torn down, getting shot of police racism is something of considerably more importance.
Yeah I know this should not be an either or, it should be both but the english media has craftily cast it as a solution for an unrelated issue.

Posted by: A User | Jun 10 2020 6:30 utc | 102

Posted by: james | Jun 10 2020 6:12 utc | 101
Yes, Murray and b tend to be in agreement here.
“Monuments do not stand still. They are, ultimately, all of them Ozymandias. Destruction of historical artifacts is a bad thing; they are valuable tools for understanding the past, and of artistic and cultural value in themselves. But it is perfectly natural that in public spaces we wish to have public objects that reflect the mores of our own times. The important thing is to understand that the mores of the times do change; our great grandchildren will undoubtedly think we were quaint and had weird beliefs.”

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Jun 10 2020 6:41 utc | 103

If the statue is replaced I would recommend one to Toussaint L’Ouverture who led the first successful slave rebellion in the Americas. It would fitting to replace the statue of Colston with its head removed next to it.
Now that would be educational.

Posted by: ToivoS | Jun 10 2020 6:47 utc | 104

JC @ 98
Don’t be offended by my post JC. Far from thinking this is all about Trump alone. Both in the US and Britain we are as you know dealing with institutional racism.
You and I JC are very much on the same side.
This is Judging by all your posts, which I very much enjoy and agree with.
User @ 102
I agree with all your post, except that this statue demonstration comes at the end of an intensive week of demonstrations focused on the Murder of George. Floyed
This helps to prevent his murder being forgotten about all to quickly, as in past police murders in U.K. and US. This protest must increase.
Aparently the Romans melted.down statues of previous emperors.
These present statues are ‘emblamatic’ And for that reason alone should be torn down. As a message to the people who find illegal police brutality acceptable !

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 10 2020 7:04 utc | 105

For the people here and in America, UK who would disagree with our view point regarding ALL the present protests.
Get your selve an effective opposition political party and in the U.K. regret distroying the one you had ! It’s called democracy!!
Something both countrys don’t have now.
All those statues are based on lies ! False history ! Early fake news / propagander !
Why are they even still ther ?

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 10 2020 7:28 utc | 106

Philanthropists like Aaron Lopez…

Posted by: E | Jun 10 2020 7:57 utc | 107

Any chance long standing statutes prevent the re writing of history that certain establishment elements and MSM are so busy doing?
Propaganda has a difficult time controlling uneducated minds, when the facts and statutes speak against its claim.

Posted by: snake | Jun 10 2020 8:00 utc | 108

I’d like to back my post up with citations, but it is the wee hours and I’m up with my fight with insomnia.
Many pro-succession military statues in the US have been erected just since the 60’s when a push-back against Civil Rights legislation fanned flames of resentment among southern white folk.I might add, also a hopeful reference to the “good-old days.”
I like the German approach, we should not be in the business of erasing events that got us to this point good or bad.

Posted by: johnt | Jun 10 2020 8:12 utc | 109

Out of sight, out of mind?

Posted by: Barovsky | Jun 10 2020 8:20 utc | 110

mark2 @ 10, never will I be against Democracy, but “based on lies or not” comment.. These statutes provide a trail which allow to tract how propaganda has affected society over time. Its not that the meaning of the statute is a lie, its that the lie was made to be the truth by the application of propaganda. Study history by moving from one statute to the next.. in time. Its a history of lies made into truth by propaganda.
Democracy is the goal, but any constitution that supports a democracy must recognized lying as a grave and consequential violation of the rights of all persons in such a constitutional democracy. No official, no person, no entity should be allowed to lie and no law should be passed to deny any and all persons to speak at any time.
The first amendment in the Constitution of the USA says Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or of the right of the people to peacefully assembly.. or to petition the Government for a redress of grievances But neither the constitution or the amendment include that which has allowed a few to pillage, rape and destroy many societies. The First Amendment should have gone on to say, that any lie expressed by authority under the constitution shall be punished by 5 years in the pokey, and that any citizen or resident, regardless of qualification, shall be empowered to bring a charge of lying to the attention of the prosecutor, and that any prosecutor so notified, must prosecute the person accused, for guilt of the alleged lying offense, and if that person is found guilty, the court that hears the case must impose a 5 year prison term on the persons found guilty of the lying offense. In the case of a entity person the entity found guilty shall be denied to exist, and its assets shall be auctioned off by the court.
Something like this could stop false, misleading propaganda war mongering. mind control propaganda, and false and misleading advertising.

Posted by: snake | Jun 10 2020 8:31 utc | 111

Snake @ 111
You got the bullseye with that whole comment, kudos!
And speaking of lies, ——— concerning the lies told re protesters both here and in the U.K. protesting about George Floyd’s murder / Trumps incitement before and after the murder—
Take a long hard look at this link and ask your selve. Are these people criminals or are they in fact ‘THE PUBLIC’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAvSeYyiVQA
Don’t beleave the fascist lies !
What you see here are what anti- fascists look like !!

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 10 2020 8:53 utc | 112

The saddest aspect of this racial-prejudice vandalism is that the vast majority of the black and white population, those who just want to live normal lives, have jobs, raise families, who have never judged another person by the colour of one’s skin but by one’s behaviour, who could recognise a baddy not because he was black or white, but because he did bad things, these common people will now turn more antagonistic towards each other, will become more suspicious than before when a black person’s involved, will be more ill-disposed to not just those of a different race, but its own race suspecting that the person may be supporting the other side. Truly tragic this.

Posted by: Baron | Jun 10 2020 9:07 utc | 113

Baron that comment @ 113
Should be clearly directed at the thugs that murdered Georage Floyd and the person that incited them Trump !
Otherwise your comment is pure victem blaming and psychological projection.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 10 2020 9:21 utc | 114

Lenin yesterday (and he was all over the place so maybe not so strange), Cecil Rhodes (perhaps) today, Nelson Mandela (as likely as anything when Gandhi is attacked, ANC has plenty of skeletons) tomorrow, they all had flaws, there’s always some blood on any human hands, if nothing else we’re born with it.
Are these people attacking statues or are they attacking themselves? Their own history mostly bad and some good?

So did anyone here stop going to wherever they were heading and go out of their way to look at who a statue is supposed to be the last time they went past one? Did they then go home or to a library and look up who that actually was? Did they start reading books delving into their personality and circumstance and why the statue was put up in the first place? Did they then actually criticize what was written or said and their own thoughts?
Did anyone here ever do that? Or did they simply ignore it (I do almost always).
Does anyone here think anyone normal (like a factory worker or an unemployed person) does more than perhaps look at a plaque of a statue to read the name more than a handful of times in a lifetime?
Sure it’s different if you hang out at a statue or if it’s a small place where everyone knows who it is. But probably not by much.
No, what an entirely fake and constructed outrage the whole “bad statues” thing is.
No, these piddly “monuments” can not be compared to gigantic statues of political leaders/dictators or totalitarians. They’re historical curiosities just like the vast majority of all statues (or even any public art) are.
What a great way to distract from murder and to misrepresent by false association those protesting murder to be rabid “political” lunatics reminiscent of Taliban, Khmer Rouge, and the “purification” done by SA and SS brown-shirts first and Nazis in general later which did not stop at either books or art. Exactly the same mentality, no difference at all.
For immediate contextual comparison who goes around destroying statues in Europe?
Fascists.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Jun 10 2020 9:30 utc | 115

Oh, well. German “memorials”. There are a lot of Lenin statues that have been removed. And Berlin’s “palace of the republic” was removed for the original imperial palace which I interpret as nostalgia or hoping to forget, same as the removal of 1960’s architecture for rebuilt medieval houses. You are correct though, Germany has been trying to achieve some historic synthesis excluding its communist Soviet Russian part (Marx/Engels survived, but not Lenin).
I would say US slavery stuff is different.
Engineering a Race War: Will This Be the American Police State’s Reichstag Fire?

The Deep State, the powers-that-be, want us to turn this into a race war, but this is about so much more than systemic racism. This is the oldest con game in the books, the magician’s sleight of hand that keeps you focused on the shell game in front of you while your wallet is being picked clean by ruffians in your midst.
It’s the Reichstag Fire all over again.
It was February 1933, a month before national elections in Germany, and the Nazis weren’t expected to win. So they engineered a way to win: they began by infiltrating the police and granting police powers to their allies; then Hitler brought in stormtroopers to act as auxiliary police; by the time an arsonist (who claimed to be working for the Communists in the hopes of starting an armed revolt) set fire to the Reichstag, the German parliamentary building, the people were eager for a return to law and order.
That was all it took: Hitler used the attempted “coup” as an excuse to declare martial law and seize absolute power in Germany, establishing himself as a dictator with the support of the German people.
Fast forward to the present day, and what do we have? The nation in turmoil after months of pandemic fear-mongering and regional lockdowns, a national election looming, a president with falling poll numbers, and a police state that wants to stay in power at all costs.
Note the similarities?
It’s entirely possible that Americans have finally reached a tipping point over police brutality after decades of abuse. After all, until recently, the legislatures and the courts have marched in lockstep with the police state, repeatedly rebuffing efforts to hold police accountable for official misconduct.
Then again, it’s also equally possible that the architects of the police state have every intention of manipulating this outrage for their own purposes.
It works the same in every age.
As author Jim Keith explains, “Create violence through economic pressures, the media, mind control, agent provocateurs: thesis. Counter it with totalitarian measures, more mind control, police crackdowns, surveillance, drugging of the population: antithesis. What ensues is Orwell’s vision of 1984, a society of total control: synthesis.”

It explains what I see in German streets: Mostly elderly Germans protesting the lockdown (kids just do what they want, they don’t protest politically), right wing groups attempting to exploit the protests, “antifa” kids who are not capable of joining an argument acting as agent provocateurs, big demonstrations against the murder of George Floyd and racism by NGO’s – presumably funded by the Ford Foundation – this time outspoken intelligent kids who simply don’t care about the lockdown and social distancing.
It does not work in Germany, as the left are slow but not stupid, and individual economic pain of the lockdown is there but mostly bearable, the medical profession acts more or less ethical, and our elections and the law still work (though lockdown protesters have been brutalized in the beginning). So there is some hope to solve this in political channels.
USians are left with elections that don’t reflect political will and are fraud, political protests followed by violence and looting and a slogan “defund the police”. The outcome is predictable.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 10 2020 10:26 utc | 116

add to 116
Minnesota, by the way, is a deeply Democratic state. Same as the cities where most of the demonstrations take place. Same as Covid-19 and the lockdown.
So whatever the people trying to engineer this think they are doing it will tear up the Democratic Party.
My guess is the Oligarchy has started a preemptive class war.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 10 2020 10:41 utc | 117

JC | Jun 10 2020 4:33 utc | 97
Why are you Viet Nam vets so touchy? Korean vets went into the military meat grinder but they never seemed so full of self pity as you crowd. They were good sheep. As war monuments go, that one is tolerable because the dead are named. What are your favorite war memorials JC?

Posted by: jadan | Jun 10 2020 12:20 utc | 118

@ Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 10 2020 4:28 utc | 95
Survivor bias: the only reason there are “so many” surviving monuments is in the fact that “so many more” were built.
The pyramids literally are the pharaohs’ tombs. And they were ransacked many times (the Romans probably being responsible for removing the granite that covered them, after they finally colonized Egypt). The only reason the pyramids still survive today is that they were too large to be completely destroyed.
Egypt also has a privileged climate for monument and document (papyri) conservation, as it is extremely dry and arid. Most written sources from the Roman Empire that wasn’t preserved by the Catholic Church and the European Middle Ages are found in Egypt for that reason.
Lenin was a Marxist. Marxists are not idealists. Marx’s mentor – Hegel – was an idealist (Subjective Idealism). Idealism, to put it in simply, hovers around positing human being as a spiritual being, in opposition to a natural being, an animal. Marxism considers the human being as a biological species as any other.

Posted by: vk | Jun 10 2020 13:12 utc | 119

Jeez. Who let the Antifa nuts into the bar.
Speaking of that, here’s a new strategy for the blackmasks- try your provocations in a bar where vets or cops for example, hang out.
At least the mask will the new gap toothed smiles when you are dragged out to the curb.

Posted by: Morongobill | Jun 10 2020 13:17 utc | 120

It strikes me that during its short but far from inglorious existence as a state the German Democratic Republic must have commissioned statues of Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht. I presume that they are still standing-they most certainly ought to be. As to Rosa were there no monuments to her in Poland?
Information would be gratefully received.
Here’s my post from the Murray site:
We just have to learn to look at statues and monuments in a different way: all those honoured have been imperialists and capitalists. All the truly great lives have been marked by their official neglect.
If a man is the subject of a statue in a prominent place it is almost certain that he was an enemy of the people, wherever he was active.
On the other hand, let it not be forgotten, there were those who made great contributions generally by their implacable opposition to the ruling classes of their times.
Such are Tom Paine and William Cobbett, for example. Tom Mann, William Morris and John Maclean. But for the most part those worthy of remembrance have been entirely forgotten, their lives obscured by deliberate oversight, their deeds the subjects of sneers from on high.
And most of them are collective persons, too, not Generals but armies; not leaders but the rank and file.
Did not Grey write an elegy on the matter?

Posted by: bevin | Jun 10 2020 13:47 utc | 121

“Minnesota, by the way, is a deeply Democratic state..”
somebody@117
At risk of seeming pedantic Minnesota is so Democratic that it isn’t- the Democrats were long ago replaced by the Farmer-Labour party, with which the Democrats then fused.
It is a reminder that the most democratic states are always tending towards third party, new party, populist politics.
And then there is the significance that, in Minneapolis, the current fascist police force was born in the 1934 General Strike there. It took an extraordinarily nasty bunch of people, untrammeled by law or any sense of decency, to break the strike and their example, the population’s violent antipode, lives on. In a sense George Floyd was just another potential radical teamster fighting for a better world: that is how the killer cops saw him anyway.

Posted by: bevin | Jun 10 2020 13:57 utc | 122

@ Posted by: Morongobill | Jun 10 2020 13:17 utc | 120
Your argument is fallacious. By the same logic, I could ask you to send those American vets to Iraq and see if they get out of there alive speaking their pro-war opinions out loud. Nobody is loved everywhere, nobody is sacrosanct, nothing is sacred – not even an American war veteran.
@ Posted by: bevin | Jun 10 2020 13:47 utc | 121
The SPD, until today, refuse to recognize their role in the murder of Luxemburg and Liebknecht. The reasons they didn’t built their statues while in government is obvious: they were the responsible for their deaths in the first place.
The 1918-9 revolution was a decisive moment in World History. It consolidated the schism between Western and Eastern Marxism (social-democrats and communists). When Lenin read the news the SPD had voted in favor of the war credits (unanimously), he thought it was a fake news implanted by the German Intelligence, so unbelievable it was the treason.
In modern Germany, it is incorrectly taught the 1918-9 revolution was a spartacist revolution, masterminded by Luxemburg and Liebknecht, and that it was rightly crushed by a fascist-social-democrat coalition. This version is absurd: the spartacist movement was only created because the SPD betrayed its own revolution. It was never anything more than an insignificant underground movement, which did only publish some random articles. But this version pleases both the social-democrats (as it erases from history that there was a social-democrat revolution) and the right-wing (as it puts them in the “right side of History”). It even pleases some German communists, as it makes the spartacist movement appear to have been greater than it really was.
In the name of making all the parts happy, History was wholly falsified in Germany.

Posted by: vk | Jun 10 2020 14:00 utc | 123

This phase is called “bargaining”. South African neckties and liquidation of everyone who wears glasses comes later.

Posted by: Ezra Pound | Jun 10 2020 14:08 utc | 124

Just wondering if ther are any old relics lying around the White House that could do with toppling ! Are you scared yet ? The public are revolting !

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 10 2020 14:25 utc | 125

Somebody,
From your source:
“Hitler brought stormtroopers to act as auxiliary police” : no, they had been integrated in the Reichswehr since 1931 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_von_Schleicher)
No communist burnt the Reichstag, as admitted today by historians
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire#Dispute_about_Van_der_Lubbe's_role_in_the_Reichstag_fire)
As a matter of fact, Heinz Liepmann, a communist who lived through these events and knew the main heads of the various left parties of the 20s and early 30s state plainly in two of his books, published respectively in 1933 and 1935, that the Nazis did it themselves and he adds a number of elements showing it was well-prepared. Check his Vaterland and … wird mit dem Tode bestraft.
Unfortunately rarely available in libraries and not on the internet (out of his being a Red?)

Posted by: Mina | Jun 10 2020 14:37 utc | 126

South Africa is the paradigm the extractive wealthy elite have in store for America. A failed nation state, in otherwords. Failed nation state comes after kleptocracy. America is currently a kleptocracy and in ten years to fifteen it will be failed. The transnational extractive wealthy elite will be fine. They always come out ahead and on top.
I do not support #BlackLivesMatter. I support egalitarianism and equal rights for all. Proper effective support of that eviscerates any notion of bigotry and racism. Supporting #BlackLivesMatter is supporting the mostly white extractive wealthy elite in their endeavor to further immiserate the unwashed as their bank accounts overflow with so much pillaged loot they couldn’t possible spend it all.
Defunding the police without having a mechanism in place to defend yourself against the thugs/goons without badges (because thugs/goons have badges too) is numbskullery at its finest. Many of these young, naive liberals and progressives have no clue how bad it will get without that defense mechanism in place.
Watch a documentary about law enforcement, if you can call it that, in South Africa. Let’s talk about #MeToo in South Africa. This is the model being presented by #BlackLIvesMatter. If you are not a member of the extractive wealthy elite, your life will be a living hell, whether you be black, white, brown, yellow or red.
Elite ANC Politics Has Failed. South Africa Needs A “Politics Of The People”

India’s liberation experience shows us the importance of differentiating between elites and subordinates, rather than just looking at race.
In Hardiman’s view, the elite and subordinate classes have different objectives. He writes of India: “The elite sought above all to win constitutional power, and deployed agitation to this end. Elite nationalists were not committed to giving the subaltern any real power, often withdrawing protests when they were seen to pose a challenge to Indian elite groups, such as landlords, the business classes, industrialist and other vested interests. The elites wanted only limited transformation.”
This approach clearly has relevance to South Africa. The ANC was similarly founded, in 1912, by relatively elite groups such as lawyers, teachers and chiefs. Its leaders have come from these same strata and include lawyers such as Oliver Tambo and Nelson Mandela and multimillionaire businessman Ramaphosa. Since 1994, the country’s new ruling class has focused on consolidating rather than challenging power.
Both during the fight against apartheid and since it came to power, the ANC has attempted to present itself as the sole legitimate representative of the South African people. Leaders like Zuma have promised that the ANC will rule until the second coming of Christ and the party has tried to de-legitimise all alternatives – from the Pan Africanist Congress that broke away from the ANC in the 1950s, to the main opposition Democratic Alliance (DA) today. The basis of the ANC’s claim to authority is that it is the only party that rules in the interests of the black majority. Subaltern Studies, however, encourages us to view this claim more sceptically and examine whether a group’s actions are genuinely geared towards popular transformation or whether they primarily benefit a narrow elite. In these assessments, South Africa’s deep racial inequalities will often be an important factor – and one that will be emphasised by the ANC – but race alone cannot be a substitute for understanding.
A more empirical look at the effects of the ANC’s policies shows how the party has repeated sided with elites over the poor, regardless of race. Consider the Aurora Mine scandal in which the nephew of President Zuma and a grandson of Nelson Mandela stripped the assets of the mining poor (both black and white). Where was the ANC outrage? Where is the challenge to the power of the Zulu king, who controls vast swathes of land, depriving local people of their rights? Take state capture, which has enriched a few at the cost of the vast majority. Time and again the ANC has sided with the country’s elites despite its populist discourse that reduces everything to “them and us”.

Beware The Deceivers. It’s Not A Promised Land They’ll Lead You To, But Instead A Place Called Hell

Posted by: 450.org | Jun 10 2020 14:50 utc | 127

The aboriginal communities of the Pacific Northwest have an excellent solution.. construct them from relatively long lasting wood… when it rots and falls, leave it lay where nature finishes the burial process.

Posted by: les7 | Jun 10 2020 14:52 utc | 128

@128 les7
Sorry, les7, that wood is needed for the burning of ‘Green” biomass, don’t you know? See Planet of the Humans. The system will not reform itself and instead seeks to usurp and co-opt any and all attempts to reform and/or replace it.
@101 james
Thanks. My sentiments exactly. It will matter not in a 100,000 years and most likely much much sooner than that. But it helps to strengthen the muscles in the hands and fingers considering all the outrage typing the debate prompts.

Posted by: 450.org | Jun 10 2020 14:57 utc | 129

A taste of South Africa if you’re not a member of the extractive wealthy elite.
The Schools Under Siege in South Africa | Unreported World

Posted by: 450.org | Jun 10 2020 15:03 utc | 130

“Colston had also donated a lot for various local social purposes”
So what? A man who steals $100 and then donates $1 to charity isn’t absolved. Imperial societies thrived off stealing from other peoples. Monuments to the thieves normalized and lionized the scummiest practices.
I love how y’all are arguing about a statue that is already at the bottom of a river. Direct action works a lot better than debates.

Posted by: The S | Jun 10 2020 15:05 utc | 131

I’m from New Orleans, and the statue of Robert E. Lee, dedicated in 1884, was recently removed from its column at one end of St. Charles Avenue. The statue of P. G. T. Beauregard was also removed. Both men, as has been noted of Lee, were advocates of rights for Blacks, although presumably both slave owners. But today any Confederate monument is automatically considered a monument to slavery and racism. A move is currently under way to rename Jefferson Davis Parkway.
New Orleans has had other waves of monument removals and renamings. In fact, Washington school, which my father attended, was renamed back in the ’60s on the grounds that George Washington owned slaves.
However, to my knowledge, there has never been a call to remove the statue of Bienville, considered the founder of the city, despite the fact that he was a slave trader and led the genocide of the Natchez people.
Personally I have always believed that there is more to be learned from a monument or street name if it is left in place than if it is removed. Those who remove or rename them must be prepared to be judged along with those who erected or named them.

Posted by: Gene Poole | Jun 10 2020 15:08 utc | 132

bevin @121
Rosa Luxemburg has no monuments in Poland as far as I know, there may be some streets named after her, but no monuments. I believe she was a big polonophobe.

Posted by: bystander 04 | Jun 10 2020 15:13 utc | 133

@ David | Jun 9 2020 20:33 utc | 24
You are absolutely right about the prominence of slavery as a key issue in the secession of the southern states, though you will be pilloried by many here who wish to re-write history.
I have the texts of the articles of secession of each of those states. Slavery (in some instances referred to as “our peculiar institution”)is mentioned as a cause of secession in eight of them.
Can’t wait to see the revisionists frantically trying out their erasers on that.

Posted by: AntiSpin | Jun 10 2020 15:32 utc | 134

Once again, beware the deceivers. The so-called reformers. They are devils and speak with forked tongues. If we don’t get this right, and are deceived again and again, Libya is our fate as South Africa is our fate. The extractive wealthy elite have no problem with this. They increase their wealth and come out on top either way. In fact, I would argue, they enjoy people suffering. They live to impoverish. How could they not? That’s what they do. It’s their modus operandi. It’s who and what they are. Malevolent. Demonic. They are not human. They are alien to this planet.
CAPE TOWN: BEHIND THE BEAUTY (2019) – South Africa Mini Documentary

Posted by: 450.org | Jun 10 2020 15:37 utc | 135

@ Posted by: AntiSpin | Jun 10 2020 15:32 utc | 134
That, ultimately, the incompatibility between the slave labor and wage labor systems caused the Civil War, is evident.
The thing is we must also ask ourselves why the Civil War only happened in 1861 and not before nor after. Or why the USA was founded as a dual labor system country in the first place (and not as two separate countries). Or why the USA took the territorial configuration it has today (e.g. why wasn’t Cuba integrated as a new member State, even though Thomas Jefferson stated it was part of the USA’s natural borders)
When you look at it closer, the picture gets more complex. We shouldn’t simplify History when we have the documented evidence.

Posted by: vk | Jun 10 2020 15:49 utc | 136

While not a monument, can anyone defend having J Edgar Hoover’s name on FBI headquarters? Are there any remaining doubts about the scope of his abuses?

Posted by: David | Jun 10 2020 16:03 utc | 137

Posted by: Mina | Jun 10 2020 14:37 utc | 126
The scapegoat they had for burning the Reichstag was a communist. The text I linked to assumes that Reichstagsbrand was engineered by the Nazis themselves, to take power. So there is no contradiction.
It is news to me that Nazi Sturmabteilung – SA was integrated into anything. They were alive and kicking (literally) until the so called Röhm Putsch in 1934 when the SS – a more organized part of Nazi power – on the order of Hitler killed their leadership, as the Party leadership had no intention to fulfill the promise of “socialism” that went with the “nationalism”.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 10 2020 16:45 utc | 138

@137 David
I think it’s perfectly appropriate J. Edgar Hoover’s name is on the FBI headquarters. What he represents is what the FBI still is to this day. It’s an undemocratic institution that MUST be abolished. The FBI is part of the Overseer class on this plantation and the extractive wealthy elite are the Masters. As such, we don’t want to disguise the FBI and pretend it’s something it isn’t. In fact, I submit a statue should be erected of J.Edgar Hoover at the FBI headquarters where he’s wearing a dress and doing Clyde Tolson from behind.

Posted by: 450.org | Jun 10 2020 16:52 utc | 139

This time I agreed 100% with b. Let’s mark this historical moment by erecting a monument to my glory. I will posture myself sat on b back.

Posted by: murgen23 | Jun 10 2020 17:21 utc | 140

While not a monument, can anyone defend having J Edgar Hoover’s name on FBI headquarters?
Just as bad is Dulles Airport, those guys were as dirty as you can get. I personally refer to the other airport in DC as National and refuse to call it Reagan.

Posted by: dan of steele | Jun 10 2020 17:22 utc | 141

dan of steele @141–
What you illustrate is far more Orwellian than the statues mentioned, Dulles in particular since both should’ve been prosecuted for a laundry list of High Crimes along with Treason. Having place names like those make the believability of actual, genuine, truthful, history difficult and act as evidence that within the Outlaw US Empire a debilitating Cult of Personality exists.
Earlier in the thread, the monument to the Vietnam War was mentioned in a positive fashion, but it says nothing about the very real War Crimes committed throughout Southeast Asia that took the lives of 3-5 million, displaced tens of millions, caused many more millions to be maimed by birth defects, and still takes lives on a daily basis.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 10 2020 17:59 utc | 142

Some statues are to mock not so great racist people. (it’s a link to Bibi’s golden statue).

Posted by: gary | Jun 10 2020 18:17 utc | 143

@ Jane Doe | 77
I am delighted to read that you noticed my comment, although I am not certain how to interpret your response. Some of what I now write may be sourced from your writings, but I am no longer certain. Please fill in any blanks…
From your articles I realized that the southern jurisdiction, whose flag supposedly is on moon, and who even now runs NASA, had been involved in a great struggle with the northern Scottish Rite and likely the Royal Arch. Additionally, it is my understanding that the Southern Jurisdiction is somehow allied with the Grand Orient de France. Jefferson, Franklin and Washington were accepted into the Grand Orient, IIRC. Lafayette was definitely a high ranking member as well. Hitler and Petain chased this group out of Vichy for the duration of WWII.
I have read that the US constitution was based on a preexisting Masonic constitution written to resolve conflicts between various Masonic lodges, likely the Scottish Rite and the Grand Orient. Interestingly, George Floyd suffered his Masonic sacrifice right outside of the Oddfellows hall in Minnesota. Albert Pike was a member of Oddfellows.
I am baffled by this comment:
“it is their great grandchildren who gave us the Georgia Guidestones and for that I admire them to no end”. How could you admire these genocidal monsters?
I would greatly enjoy reading your reply…

Posted by: Heros | Jun 10 2020 18:28 utc | 144

Imho the destruction of Cultural Artifacts like Statues is to be avoided, on the whole. Arguments for, maybe; when ppl do this, they attack concrete symbols, and not living people, animals, Nature – perhaps there is a cathartic effect, and an attempt for change in ‘minds’ or ‘culture’ is better than direct aggro, etc.
If people don’t want to see statues of X Y or Z, they can be removed and put into a warehouse, dusty museum, available for viewing, study. Or they could be covered up in tarp (mini Christo-like, he just died btw) with a sign >, Not Suitable for Viewing. This being another form of contextualizing in situ (see b top post for the good kind which may work in some place, some time.) Another good way is simply an explanatory plaque, but of course real hate can’t be stopped by ‘teacher-like’ preachy moments and soggy leaflets.
The agression, damaging, toppling is the whole point! (Ex. see all the mutilated Roman statues, no arms, head chopped off, etc. That wasn’t done by ‘time’ but by violence. See vk 14 for some of the same points.) Just as when shooting practice puts up pictures of say Obama to aim at.
Tampa Bay News. https://bit.ly/3hhfc8X
Some religions forbid the depiction of the revered entities – they are not to have any material representation, figuration, but must rest in the spirit only. ‘Secular’ states (e.g. France) also forbid representation of religious figures, in pictorial form, statues, or any other medium, and emblems of religious belonging (veil, kippa, cross..) in spaces that are tagged as ‘run by the state.’ So here opposing ends meet in restrictions, censorship, for reasons that seem different at first blush but perhaps aren’t so much… — very complicated.
Those who want to commemorate the end of US slavery might sculpt or mold statues of the tractor, or the Taylorist factory, the grim buildings, shoddy housing around. Slavery ended for economic reasons, not moral ones, and in any case it was not the main issue, see others above. And it is still around, today evident in the US Prison Industry, room and board paid by the tax payer for ppl locked up who work for …e.g. Victoria’s Secret!
http://blackeconomics.co.uk/wp/big-businesses-that-benefit-from-prison-labour/

Posted by: Noirette | Jun 10 2020 19:21 utc | 145

Just a reminder what all these protests are all about.
I’d add – A bit of humour helps to burst the bubble of their pomposity, there power is but an illusion,
Right now America is a powder keg.
This is serious, don’t forget it. There is more that unites us than devided us ! Let’s stand with
George Floyd
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAvSeYyiVQA
The long version is powerful well worth watching.
Available on YouTube!

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 10 2020 19:26 utc | 146

Just remember it’s all our necks they are kneeling on
George Floyd RIP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AH5-3QGV0o

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 10 2020 19:38 utc | 147

@karlof1
Thanks, I will check out the book. I do know the answer to the
“great Question: why could they not debate real solutions?”
which is that Congress is a circus of factional demagogues, not a properly structured institution of policy debate, so neither the real issues nor the potential solutions were ever discussed.
The US desperately needs a fourth branch of federal government, which I am calling (and slowly building) the College of Policy Debate, to conduct moderated textual debates of policy issues in all regions, protecting and representing every viewpoint, in which all views are challenged and must respond, and all parties must come to common terms. The CPD will produce commented debate summaries available to the public with mini-quizzes and discussion groups. It will have a dramatized lower level to educate those unprepared to study. Without that rational analysis and access to the core debates, the US does not have a democracy at all.

Posted by: Sam F | Jun 10 2020 19:43 utc | 148

As to the Confederacy, Frederick Douglas (I believe it was him) wrote about We (ex-slaves) do not want to be shipped off to Africa, we were never against the government, we just want to be part of the action. So per him, was the Old South really that bad? By the way where is a statue of him?

Posted by: Robert | Jun 10 2020 20:02 utc | 149

450.org 137-Dan of Steele
450,you make an interesting point. J Edgar does represent what the FBI is all about so the name should stay.
You are right about Dulles and Reagan, Dan. They were two men who inflicted grave harm to the nation. Few Reagan supporters know that the man who wanted to reduce the size of government increased the number of Federal workers. Government spending as a percentage of gdp was higher after eight years than it was when he took office. And of course, he tripled in only eight years the national debt that had accused for the previous 200.

Posted by: David | Jun 10 2020 20:04 utc | 150

A User @ 88
There are very few historical events that are down to a single human being anyway, instead of beating up the exaggerated deeds of one human, it has always made more sense to me that the reality of history be displayed in a way that teaches us about the gamut of human nature
indeed,
…plinths and all!

Posted by: john | Jun 10 2020 20:14 utc | 151

I’m pretty sure that I saw Reagan get elected twice on the promise of deficit cutting but as you say he actually tripled the debt.
I always felt that the so called winning of the cold war was Russia refusing and also unable to borrow more money to fund that stupidity.
The US could borrow endlessly and still does. I’m not sure it will be so for much longer.
Didn’t some politician just threaten China and Russia with a new arms race where he said the US would outspend the two of them.
I know nothing about Reagan statues but when they buried him you would think they were burying a God with all the hooplah.

Posted by: arby | Jun 10 2020 20:20 utc | 152

@Rutherford82 comment 72:
An unlikely conquest of the US Reich might teach it to loathe war and end celebration of the Confederate South, but there are other ways (apart from dumping monuments). In my comment 148 I note the value of a College of Policy Debate to consider real solutions. Of course the US Reich might conquer itself economically or with another civil war.
Recognizing the legitimate grievances of the South (slaveowners could not unilaterally substitute paid labor and compete in market price) the cotton-consuming North and England could have taxed slave product to support building towns etc. near plantations, to permit abolition at their own expense without net cost to the southern economy). That would have been a bumpy ride but better than civil war.
The idea of group hatreds “intentionally sewn into” US culture from its origin is viable, but there were also property concepts incompatible with natives, and beliefs that slavery would rescue Africans from tribes, which became a veneer for exploitation. The rationales were plausible at the outset, when America was almost entirely open land for the surplus downtrodden of Europe, and the already captured slaves looked like anything here would be better for them. Perhaps keeping the wealthy out of power would have cut down on the rationalizing, but they were also better educated. It was a moral trap for those driven by circumstances.

Posted by: Sam F | Jun 10 2020 20:24 utc | 153

In the US context, very few if any of the monuments to the traitors are from the immediate post-war period. They were put up decades later as part a conscious effort to create a Lost Cause mythology. They are themselves forged, revisionist history.
As for what to do with them, lots of valid choices: put them in a museum with information putting them in their proper context as lying propaganda, leave them in place but with new plaques exposing their bullshit, put up new monuments near them juxtaposing their lies with historical truth, or just leave them as is but never bother to clean the graffiti tags off them. Any of these would be more ifnormative than simply smashing them, but I’m not exactly upset at seeing them smashed and removed.

Posted by: Benjamin | Jun 10 2020 20:42 utc | 154

Antispin 134
I appreciate your comment. You are correct that suggesting that slavery was the most significant reason the Civil War was fought will result in being pilloried. When I asked Graig Paul Roberts why Jefferson Davis called slavery the “issue of transcendent magnitude” with respect to the issue of secession, if as he claims, it wasn’t, his response was downright nasty. Apparently, Davis simply didn’t know what he was talking about. His vice president was equally clueless when he said the same thing. At one time I respected Roberts but the tone of his reply to my e-mail inquiry was not what I would describe as civil.
I’ve read the writings of Davis and Stephens. I’ve also read the articles of the Confederate State of secession. As you observed, slavery was mentioned prominently. Missippi claimed that preserving slavery was essential for the well being of the entire world because cotton was critical and only the black man is genetically capable of harvesting it. What puzzles me is how people 160 years later can claim that they know what the true causes of thewar were when their claims are flatly contradicted by the statements of the Confederate leadership. Do they think Davis and Stephens were lying?
Another claim that I find preposterous is that slavery couldn’t have been the reason for the war because only a small percentage of Confederate soldiers owned slaves. Wars don’t serve the interests of the people who actually fight them. The Confederacy exhausted its pool of volunteers in only a year. A draft was intituted. The “volunteers” were obliged to serve and additional three years. Desertion was a serious problem despite the fact that it was punishable by death.

Posted by: David | Jun 10 2020 21:35 utc | 155

Sheezam Sargent Carter. You have untied the Gordian Knot of what to do with History. Yesseree!!! But I have a simple solution to all the Goobers who could not get stable employment unlike my brother Goober at the fillin’ station. Lets make a big hole and bury them in it, and then put all these here monuments right on top in one place where everyone can go see these nice monuments and then say a prayer about the living foundation which lies underneath.

Posted by: Gomer Pyle USMC | Jun 10 2020 21:44 utc | 156

Sam F @148–
Thanks much for your reply! You’re generally correct in your answer, but the details are actually worse–after the 1856 brutal caning of Senator Charles Sumner, many Congresscritters took to openly wearing sidearms. There was only one nominal national political party–the American Democracy–but it split into two factions as you likely know. The book finely details the events that led to the 4-way election which allowed Lincoln to win.
We agree on the need for another branch of government. My proposal is for an independent Regulatory Branch that’s directly elected thus taking away most of the oversight duties of Congress and all regulatory agencies away from the Executive, which would then leave Congress free to debate policy. I look forward to our future interactions.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 10 2020 21:45 utc | 157

A good example of a monument which had its meaning changed is the one for the Carnation Revolution in Lisbon, Portugal. In front of a fascist-style twin-obelisk monument from the Salazar era, they created a water-fountain made of rubbles-like stones and marbles, symbolising the water of life springing out of the rubbles of the junta. A truly remarkable idea!

Posted by: Dimitris A | Jun 10 2020 21:48 utc | 158

Instead of tearing down monuments, America needs to build a moment to the one US historical figure that represents America’s true values: AL CAPONE.
As this unacknowledged American Founding Gangster once stated, “This American system of ours, call it Americanism, call it capitalism, call it what you will, gives each and every one of us a great opportunity if we only seize it with both hands and make the most of it.
https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/al_capone_408711
If America can build monuments to slaveowners and (Native Indian) ethnic cleansers like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, it can certainly have a monument to this great American thug, Al Capone, who perfectly personified America’s national ideology.
An Al Capone Monument on the White House lawn would thus be a very fitting memorial for the self-styled “Land of the Free.”

Posted by: ak74 | Jun 10 2020 21:52 utc | 159

ak74 @159–
I agree! It should be displayed opposite the Chicago Board of Trade, which is that city’s Parasites’s Temple.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 10 2020 22:51 utc | 160

Posted by: Benjamin | Jun 10 2020 20:42 utc | 154
Indeed. But there is a more nefarious reason, or at least very strong correlation which I tried to point out on the previous page.
In fact, most of them were erected during two distinct periods of blacks and their supporters agitating for and winning civil rights, and when white America had largely lost focus on African American struggles. One might even say they were built precisely to show the black communities in the cities and towns where they were put up that they were still second class citizens.

Posted by: _K_C_ | Jun 10 2020 23:32 utc | 161

David @ Jun10 21:35 # 155

… suggesting that slavery was the most significant reason the Civil War was fought will result in being pilloried.

Pillory? Nah. But you might draw ridicule for furthering establishment propaganda and for the pretense that you suffer unjustly for doing so.
As I noted @ Jun10 1:48 # 81, the South made the fight about slavery and their way of life for propaganda purposes. They didn’t think Northerners would fight for blacks (and they were largely right). And no country uses oligarch profits! as a rallying cry.
And, as I noted @ Jun10 0:17 # 73:

The North didn’t fight to free the slaves. The North only wanted to end the expansion of slavery. In fact, Lincoln’s ‘Emancipation Proclamation’ came nearly two years into the war (not at the war’s beginning!).

In fact, prior to the Emancipation Proclamation, a constitutional amendment to allow slavery in the South was ratified by five Northern States plus West Virginia (which became a state in 1863):

The Corwin Amendment is a proposed amendment to the United States Constitution that … is designed specifically to protect slavery from federal power. Congress proposed the Corwin Amendment on March 2, 1861, shortly before the outbreak of the American Civil War.

Also see Abraham Lincoln’s approving view of White Supremacy in the comment by RSH @ Jun10 4:05 # 90. Most white people in the North held a similar view.
Furthermore, the South expressed the intention to industrialize. If they had done so successfully, they would have become commercial competitors of the North with a key advantage: the lowest possible cost of labor.
These facts are not consistent with “fighting over slavery”. But they are consistent with fighting over the division of spoils from slavery.
!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 11 2020 2:30 utc | 162

Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) is calling for the removal of Confederate statues from Capitol’s campus, arguing the figures should not be glorified in the halls of Congress.
“As I have said before, the halls of Congress are the very heart of our democracy. The statues in the Capitol should embody our highest ideals as Americans, expressing who we are and who we aspire to be as a nation,” she wrote.
Pelosi previously called for removal of the statues in 2017, when she was House minority leader.
“Monuments to men who advocated cruelty and barbarism to achieve such a plainly racist end are a grotesque affront to these ideals. Their statues pay homage to hate, not heritage. They must be removed,” she wrote Wednesday.
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/502175-pelosi-calls-for-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-capitol-complex

Posted by: Mao | Jun 11 2020 5:02 utc | 163

117 – I don’t think they want to engage in open class warfare, although undermining social programmes and welfare states while the ultra-rich coin it in is a kind of hidden class war. Perhaps they are more comfortable with a race narrative rather than an open class one.

Posted by: Waldord | Jun 11 2020 5:59 utc | 164

I would be curious to know what the current status of Blair Mountain – site of the largest insurrection in the US since 1865, when coal miners in West Virginia fought the coal mining companies and the government forces (including part of the US army) in 1921 – is, and whether coal mining companies are still determined to raze this historic site.
Now that’s one monument that is worth preserving.

Posted by: Jen | Jun 11 2020 6:34 utc | 165

Your stated goal, commie pigdogs, is to eradicate western Christian cultures. It is the holy grail to you genocidal monsters that you strive so hard to bring about with every breath through your falsifications of history.
History will remember you volk Verräterinnen forever.

Posted by: Amon | Jun 11 2020 9:44 utc | 166

How does this blog survive without needing to seek donations?

Posted by: Martin | Jun 11 2020 10:13 utc | 167

There have been several informative articles about statues of controversial figures in the magazine ‘History Today’. See
historytoday.com/rhodes-must-not-fall
and
historytoday.com/history-matters/rhodes-must-fall-question-when-not-if?utm_source=History+Today+Ebook%3A+The+Second+World+War&utm_campaign=46e0f1c15d-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_09_20_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_e56bc9229f-46e0f1c15d-681269&mc_cid=46e0f1c15d&mc_eid=28a645b853

Posted by: Coldish | Jun 11 2020 11:11 utc | 168

Now I understand, Jack. The Confederate leaders were simply lying. It was just a good strategy to pretend that they were fighting to preserve slavery. They were savvy propagandists who knew that no one in the North, or for that matter the world, had any impassioned feelings about the issue of slavery. When Jefferson Davis referred to slavery as “The matter of transcendent magnitude” with respect to succession, he had his fingers crossed. His vice president was being entirely disingenuous when he called slavery “The cause for the rupture.” When Stephens said that slavery was to be “The foundation of their new society, a society like no other on earth” what he was really doing was masking the South’s intention to industrialize. They coordinated their propaganda campaign with the writers of the state’s articles of succession. Those Southern leaders were simply brilliant. We should be building more monuments to them.

Posted by: David | Jun 11 2020 11:14 utc | 169

With regard to the U.S., all of the generals and political leaders of the Confederacy were traitors to the nation who fought to defend the odious institution of slavery. The continued presence of statues honoring them will continue to draw admirers no matter what attempts are made to modify their intended meaning. I say pull them all down. Are there any public statues of Hitler and his lieutenants still standing in Germany? Case closed. In addition, ideas relating to the “Southern way of life” and the “War of Northern Aggression” should no longer be taught in schools. The fact that they are in some places is an ahistorical outrage.

Posted by: Rob | Jun 11 2020 16:39 utc | 170

karlof1 @157
I like your proposal for an elected Regulatory Branch, which I saw strong need for but had not formulated as a branch.
I separate policy debate from policy determination because the regional reps of Congress can negotiate but seldom look far for the truth, and usually try to bury inconvenient views that turn out to have been the ways to avoid war. They use the Congressional Research Service of the Library of Congress but it merely packages think tank diatribes serving oligarchy. LOC does not wish to form a CPD.
So I hope that the CPD can debate to find the truth of all viewpoints, leaving Congress free to bargain and resolve without trying to find truth. At least the CPD can get started privately to promote public information.

Posted by: Sam F | Jun 11 2020 22:28 utc | 171

Heck, what about Alsace and Lorraine, the Germans took it from France in 1870, expelled most of the French population, then settled Germans on it. France took it back in 1918, expelled the German population, then settled French on it. The Germans took it back in 1941 expelled the French population and settled Germans on it, the French took it back in 1945, expel the German population and settled French on it. …
Posted by: Kadath | Jun 9 2020 20:05 utc | 18
You don’t seem to have a very deep knowledge of European history. Do you? Maybe you look it up to the extend you can in English or French.

Posted by: moon | Jun 12 2020 1:51 utc | 172

Regarding this debate over whether the Civil War was fought to end slavery, we should all ask ourselves whether WW II was fought to free Europe from Fascism. Both are true, but it is also true that wars are not fought on moral grounds. We should test the veracity of that by observing the results of the two wars in question: In the first case the result was dominance over the South’s markets and political institutions by the North. In the second the result was dominance over Europe’s markets and political institutions by the Untied States. War is an investment, and it is ony natural to require a return on an investment.

Posted by: Gene Poole | Jun 12 2020 11:10 utc | 173

Okay this is typical of the kind of comment where I normally think “Oh fuck it, not going to bother” after writing and rewriting it for an hour or more and then I don’t post it. You have been warned: this is a rant and I think there’s a little bit of foaming too XD
Discussing both the US civil war and WWII (and really also WWI) in the same breath because the hypocrisy is the same means the reader must pay close attention to the switching back and forth between addressing particulars of each and also realize when both are talked about simultaneously.
Honestly not sure if I trust most commenters or even myself to be able to do that 😀 (I see “feuds” or disagreement where people don’t seem to have correctly read each others relatively to the point comments —which always happens, it’s normal, failure of communication is normal, and I do it too— so what will/could people do with something like this?)
I consider a lot of “history” to be whitewashing (and how come that’s not a “racist” word being banned? Ah, “white”. So fucking apparent it’s laughable, so much for “racism”) for public consumption, much like one can see being done on a regular basis. Here’s my take on it.
Against slavery in what sense? Against fascism in what sense?
To save slaves, the actual people who were slaves? To instantly free them at the very earliest possibility? To reward those who “voluntarily” did so? And then what? Where would all these people live and work? Save how and how soon? Did the North draw up great plans for the future of freed slaves, did they ramp up their own society to enable themselves to do such a thing as giving a large amount of people freedom?
When most people think about Nazism and fascism they think about “white” supremacy (although it wasn’t, it was Germanic/Teutonic/Boreal/Arian aka Aryan supremacy and in their own propaganda redefining “white” from its historical meaning of highest upper class wealth requiring no labor and no exposure to the sun) and concentration camps. Well the war certainly wasn’t against that kind of wealth (if anything that was what the Nazis claimed to be against, just like the Communists) so was the war to stop concentration and death camps, the people dying in them? “Everyone who isn’t us”? Well beyond scale even that wasn’t truly anything new under the sun, fascism behind all sort of names and guises was well and truly the establishment in not only all of Europe but also all of the world both before and after, so if it was against fascism it was only against a handful of particular brands of fascism. But it wasn’t even that, and almost everyone had been busy praising the good sides of order and progress right up until the rulers (“right”, “left”, and “center”) started becoming worried about being replaced or out-competed.
No, most in the North couldn’t give a fuck about slaves unless they were white ones in other parts of the world. How many black people would anyone in the North have met to being with? Not that many and mostly a few escaped slaves in a city?
No, most people in the world had never heard anything about any extermination camps, allied soldiers (Soviet, US, any) didn’t understand what they found when they found it and then the first thing they do is to send Germans on death marches south and east to camps, just as if they themselves were “good Nazis”. Can one call that irony? Is hypocrisy a sufficient word? I find both lacking, but maybe the word “human” is ugly enough to fit? Sure people at the top knew about the camps, and made no big deal out of it and mostly kept it secret (one has to wonder why) if established history is really true.
So when it concerns slavery and fascism while there are exceptions where normal individuals, small groups, soldiers and so on were motivated or were fighting for such reasons (as personal convictions or fears or rumor) the answer in general and for those in power is clearly absolutely not. For the powers that be/were and most people such ideas are hypocritical self-justifications and propaganda far removed from any true reason no matter what is claimed or written, then or now. The North loved cheap “labor” as much as the South. The British and the Soviet loved camps and gas chambers (and invented them!) as much as the Nazis, and every government in Europe had been “in love” with eugenics for decades and would continue for some time after the war, often for decades. But saying so openly crushes a lot of people’s world-view both on the left and the right and in the center. People like to think they themselves are “good people”, it might be the most cherished lie in the world (currently running rampant on “the left” although the whole point is that no one is immune to it no matter what they believe in, no shortage of takers anywhere, not today, not tomorrow).
Thus people are eager to sacrifice history and facts, just as we see now. To destroy anything for any reason.
The US civil war was all about money and the power and control it entails. WWI and WWII were in an expanded sense all about territory and what that entails (again: power, control, including of the future) although admittedly for many countries in WWII it was all about regaining or defending such territory which many of them only had because of WWI.
None of these wars should have happened. None of these wars were any better or “necessary” or “good” or “needed” than any other war beyond the simple fact of people defending themselves from getting killed (but that’s nearly always true anyway). The mythos surrounding WWII is mostly false and easily a lot of the “popular history” too; shallow and biased in all kinds of strange manners including talking up the Nazis to make oneself look better as well as enough uncomfortable undeniable “documented” truths to be either lauded or debunked according to current taste to have created a cottage industry of “remembrance” still churning out new-ish material 80 years later where we can all bathe ourselves in the radiated “glory” of millions dead, either heroes or victims or both while we boo, hate, and superimpose any evil either forwards or backwards in time on whoever deemed deserving then or now.
It’s a perpetual circus! Lessons? There are none! Absolutely nothing learnt by anyone.
No there’s no such thing as a “great generation” or “the greatest…” only “dead generations” plural: outright slaughter of your own populations as well as “the enemy” and all sides guilty.
War is always theft.
[Ps. for anyone curious I am aware that “whitewashing” comes from washing stone white using some limestone mix (although I forget what the combination is but remember it’s caustic as hell), it adds a white colored coat and helps preserve the stone (usually a building wall) thus white is in no way offensive much like I also am aware that all the variations in various languages on the word/name “negro bun” comes from the buns being black or brown in color, sweet, delicious, and a joy/treat …and all those good things are in this case associated with black people. But of course: “racism” for the moronic.
Expecting blackbirds to be renamed next week, in fact why shouldn’t I insist upon it? 😛 Let’s remove everything “black” from all languages and replace the name of the color with “color-deficient” since it’s technically an absence and then we can rename “brown” as “partially color-deficient” too and of course under such circumstances there can be no black people anywhere and all the actual supremacists will be as happy as the “most color-deficient” night. Welcome to 1984 version 2.1]

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Jun 12 2020 14:15 utc | 174

@ Posted by: Gene Poole | Jun 12 2020 11:10 utc | 173
Most of the soldiers who fought for the Union in the Civil War (and we know it because many soldiers’ letters survived) fought because they were being paid a salary. There were soldiers who explicitly fought for principles (i.e. they were against slavery, “racism” etc.), but they were the exception, not the rule.
Ending slavery as a precondition to win the war was established in the middle of the war itself, not before. As the war dragged on, it became clear to Lincoln that the Union would never survive in the long term as long as the dual-labor system was in place. As the North already was much more powerful and rich than the South at the time, it was easy to choose which was preferable.
Before the Civil War proper begun, there were individual examples of idealists in the North fighting to end slavery. They existed. But the USA was largely illiterate at the time, there was no universal basic education system in place in that era – it would be a stretch to claim the North had some kind of unified anti-slavery ideology against the South.
Collective, nationwide ideology in the way we have since the post-war didn’t exist at the time – it was invented alongside the national education systems in the newly created nation-states. In Europe, you could say it already existed, but it is not certain something like that existed in the USA by the second half of the 19th Century.
Evidence for this is in the blurred lines of the Civil War. Maryland, albeit officially fighting for the Union, de facto was divided: 40% of its manpower fought for the South. Missouri’s situation was a mess (you may search it on the internet, because it was a complicated matter). The city of New York largely supported the South, not the Union – even thought the State of New York sided with the Union (the city benefited greatly from slavery).
There are many examples of polarization in the pre-Civil War USA. The war was certainly caused by the instability generated by the dual-labor system – this implied in the abolition of slavery or the abolition of wage labor. But it is an anachronism to state the Civil War was an ideological war – yes, there were people at the time you could call “anti-racism”, but they were the exception of the exception.
The Union already was much more powerful than the Confederation by the time the Civil War started. The only chance the Confederation had in winning the war was if the British Empire entered it on their side, with both the Navy and with diplomatic recognition. When the British decided to keep their official recognition to the Union and stay out of the conflict, the South’s destiny was sealed.
There’s an interesting course about the period at Yale University, by professor David W. Blight. For an American historic subject, it is always better to learn it from an American historian, even though they still get very emotional about it.

Posted by: vk | Jun 12 2020 15:09 utc | 175

@Gene Poole (173) You are confusing cause and effect. The Southern states seceded from the Union in order to preserve slavery. That fact is undeniable and is clearly stated in South Carolina’s secession proclamation. Economic domination of the South by the North is a justification that was later invented for the sake of resurrecting the battered reputation of the South. The Northern states declared war to preserve the Union, though many northerners were also abolitionists. That the Union was useful to Northern industrialists is of far lesser importance. During the course of the Civil War, it became militarily expedient for Lincoln to emancipate the slaves, thereby encouraging many of them to escape from their masters and join the Union fighting forces. Though the move was mainly a pragmatic one, Lincoln sincerely opposed slavery.

Posted by: Rob | Jun 12 2020 17:30 utc | 176

George Galloway n good form. The video is particularly interesting:
https://www.rt.com/op-ed/491681-monument-toppling-absolve-imperial-crimes/

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Jun 13 2020 13:31 utc | 177

Rob @ Jun12 17:30 #176
The Southern states seceded from the Union in order to preserve slavery. That fact is undeniable …
Slavery is fundamentally an economic arrangement. That the South fought to preserve slavery doesn’t make the fight into something that is not about economics/profits. However, because no one fights to preserve oligarch profits, the South would naturally want to make it about their way of life and White Supremacy.
=
many northerners were also abolitionists
Few northerners were abolitionists and most northerners were white supremacists. They believed that whites were superior to American Indians, Africans, and Asians who were “uncivilized”, “savages”, or just strange.
!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 13 2020 16:43 utc | 178

Isn’t it odd that when a society’s collection of cobbled together and fragile myths starts to fall apart, the illusion (of “the nation”, or “the state”, or “the community”) evaporates into thin air in seconds. There is no reason to lament the removal of a hunk of bronze or stone. The die was cast long ago. These artifacts are just the residue of the lie people have been living. Humanity is like the drunk waking up to the trash and vomit of their living room only to blot out that reality again. In the contemporary world, mobster-capitalism is going to continue to lose its luster. While the ugliness of grotesque social stratification continues to divide humanity into a thin strata of elite mad-gods ruling over a global population of presumptive sub-humans–the world burns.
The question is whether there is indeed a set of shared beliefs capable of organizing modern society at all? That would take a change of consciousness on a grand scale. So in the meantime we can slide into hell wrangling over bits of metal and stone that should be collected together like the monuments in Père Lachaise Cemetery in Paris. A graveyard-zoo. What better way to honor human history?

Posted by: Tower | Jun 15 2020 14:29 utc | 179

Southerners did not fight to preserve slavery: they fought to guarantee the continued expansion of slavery. American voters however overwhelmingly approved reserving the new Midwestern and far western territories exclusively for free white settlement, barring slavery (and free black emigration) there.
The history of the antebellum United States is the story of the slaveholders’ hijacking of federal military power and diplomatic influence to seize ever more land for more slave plantations. There was no meaningful threat to “slavery where it exists” in 1860. The antislavery movement peaked in the activist 1840s and had suffered nothing but political setbacks throughout the reactionary 1850s. Its isolated firebrands provided a convenient imaginary enemy, like today’s “terrorists”, to suppress dissent and command obedience in a white southern population that was growing increasingly restive under the aristocratic rule of the slaveholding elite.
Plank Four of the 1860 GOP platform specifically guaranteed continued federal non-interference with slavery where state law gave it legal existence. Plank Eight however reaffirmed that “the natural condition of the United States is freedom” and that no legislative body could pretend the authority to establish slavery in places where it had never previously existed. This came in reaction to the infamous Dred Scott decision three years earlier, in which the slaveholder-controlled Supreme Court invalidated the Missouri Compromise, declaring that slavery could now be imposed everywhere without restraint.
By maneuvering the rebels into firing the first shot, Lincoln brilliantly mobilized public opinion for immediate military action against them, denying the insurgency the time it needed to mobilize an offensive fighting force to contest the United States for possession of the territories. The “erring sisters” never intended to “depart in peace,” but rather to pursue their agenda of westward expansion by other means. From the very start, the barons of the old south despised democracy and merely tolerated the federal union as long as they could dictate its policies, the will of the people be damned.

Posted by: Webster | Jun 16 2020 18:57 utc | 180

I came to Richmond, Virginia in 1967 to go to school. And stayed. I’ve often felt that maybe I didn’t belong here but it’s a great city in spite of it’s history. It’s hard to express how much it has changed in such a short time. I never thought I’d see the confederate monuments come down. My opinion was that if they had to stay they should each have a big bronze plaque attached that said, ‘LOSER’. They are quite beautiful now in their current state and last days on public view. Lee

Posted by: beq | Jun 18 2020 1:57 utc | 181