Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 30, 2020

Young White Men Abuse George Floyd Protests For Violence And Looting

Last night at times violent protests took place in some 30 U.S. cities.

The escalation of the protests is not being driven by people of color whose grievance about systemic police brutality and institutionalized racism is driving the original, and in most cases peaceful protests.

There are clear signs that other groups have joined and abuse the original protests for their own purpose:

Mayor Jacob Frey said the people who are coming to Minneapolis to protest are not residents and are "coming in largely from outside the city."

"Our Minneapolis residents are scared and rightfully so. We've seen longterm institutional businesses overridden. We've seen community institutions set on fire. And I want to be very, very clear. The people that are doing this are not Minneapolis residents," he said at a news briefing on Saturday.

He said the protests earlier this week that were mostly peaceful and were largely attended by those who lived in the city, but "the dynamic has changed."

"Gradually that shift was made and we saw more and more people coming from outside of the city. We saw more and more people looking to cause violence in our communities, and I have to say, it is not acceptable," Frey said.

"This is no longer about verbal expression. This is about violence and we need to make sure that it stops," he added.

St. Paul Mayor Melvin Carter said everyone who was arrested in his city last night was from outside the state.

"What we are seeing right now is a group of people who are not from here," he said.

UPDATE: The mayor has since walked back that claim. END-UPDATE

Detroit has seen the same phenomenon:

Detroit Police Chief James Craig spoke in a Facebook Live video late on Friday evening.

“You know, I love this community and we work very well with this community, and we know that the individuals from outside the city of Detroit who converged at the protest location don’t represent this city. They’re not from this city,” said Craig. “And so I’m just asking for all Detroiters to continue to support us, let’s peacefully protest. But outside of that, we’re not going to tolerate it. We’re not going to tolerate criminal acts.”

While mostly people of color were protesting the murder by police of George Floyd, the looting was often led (video) by white young men (video).

That the police infiltrate protests and political movements is the norm. But who or what is sending people from outside a city to vandalize it? Who put down a pallet of bricks at a bus station in a high end shopping street in Dallas during a time of protests? Who is supposed to use these?

One group suspected to be involved in this capture of legitimate protests are the "Boogaloo Bois":

On May 26th, crowds gathered in Minneapolis, Minnesota, to protest the death of 46-year-old George Floyd at the hands of the city’s police department. Floyd was black. Many of the protesters were people of color.
...
On the internet, meanwhile, a largely white, and far right movement publicly contended over what risks its members should take to support a black man killed by police.
...
On the Facebook page, Big Igloo Bois, which at the time of writing had 30,637 followers, an administrator wrote of the protests, “If there was ever a time for bois to stand in solidarity with ALL free men and women in this country, it is now”.

They added, “This is not a race issue. For far too long we have allowed them to murder us in our homes, and in the streets. We need to stand with the people of Minneapolis. We need to support them in this protest against a system that allows police brutality to go unchecked.”

One commenter added, “I’m looking for fellow Minneapolis residents to join me in forming a private, Constitutionally-authorized militia to protect people from the MPD, which has killed too many people within the last two years.”

These exchanges offer a window into an extremely online update of the militia movement, which is gearing up for the northern summer. The “Boogaloo Bois” expect, even hope, that the warmer weather will bring armed confrontations with law enforcement, and will build momentum towards a new civil war in the United States.

The Boogaloo Bois are mostly rightwing but the militia movement includes some African-American groups. They are armed and they seek conflict with the state.

The ruling oligarchy in the U.S. is behaving towards its own population no different than towards foreign ones. It looted the Iraqi gold reserves after the invasions of Baghdad. It is looting the oil of Syria. It is looting the money that was supposed to support the population during the pandemic:

In the ten weeks since the nationwide lockdown first began, the [Institute for Policy Studies (IPS)] calculates that billionaires have increased their wealth by $485 billion – equal to 16.5 percent. This half-trillion-dollar rise, for Chuck Collins, Director of the IPS’ Program on Inequality and the Common Good, is something close to looting the whole economy.

“The wealthy are economically distancing from the rest of society. Worse, some are pandemic profiteering, looting government stimulus programs and taking advantage of market monopolies,” he told MintPress News.

The looting by the oligarchs is one reason why I have expected protests and riots in the U.S. as a consequence of the badly handled epidemic. But I expected them for later in the summer, after July 31 when the federal unemployment insurance runs out. By then some 20 million of the 40 million currently unemployed will have learned that their old jobs are forever gone and that there are no new ones to find. By then mortgage defaults and evictions will have risen sky high.

Many of the affected people will not be from minorities but from the white lower classes. People who have lost their job and maybe even their home.

The social tensions will be extreme and will seek relief one way or another. Cornel West explains well (vid) why party politics in the U.S. can not be the way to solve this conflict. Something will have to give and it will not be the people - at least not without resistance.

Trump has asked the military to prepare to suppress unrest in Minnesota and elsewhere. Military police units have been put on alarm:

Soldiers from Fort Bragg in North Carolina and Fort Drum in New York have been ordered to be ready to deploy within four hours if called, according to three people with direct knowledge of the orders. Soldiers in Fort Carson, in Colorado, and Fort Riley in Kansas have been told to be ready within 24 hours.
...
The person said the military units would be deployed under the Insurrection Act of 1807, which was last used in 1992 during the riots in Los Angeles that followed the Rodney King trial.

The shooting of unarmed blacks protesters would probably be welcome by Trump's core voters. He could even use that as an advertisement in his re-election campaign.

But how will this evolve when Trump sends in the troops and recognizes that the conflict is with mostly white working class people who probably voted for him in 2016 but are now inclined to shoot back?

Posted by b on May 30, 2020 at 18:01 UTC | Permalink

Comments
« previous page | next page »

These are integrated riots. Yes, there are groupies who travel to unrest for the adrenaline rush. For example, the Dressed in Black who joined the Yellow Jackets protests in France. But there is no political left-wing left in the West. The rich and their enablers counter revolt was successful. There are no democracies left. The aristocracy rules. All wealth is hoovered up by the rich.

The response to the Cornovirus Pandemic in North America is dangerously pathetic and haphazard. The West is in the Greatest Depression. Unemployment is climbing past 1930s levels. The Western Empire has fallen. The US President is a Moron. Congress is in hiding. Yes, Shock Entrepreneurs will fan the flames to grab more fire sale properties and goods.

Unless jobs are provided for the unemployed and a free national public health system rebuilt to combat the pandemic, the protests will not end anytime soon. The basic problem is the exploitation of 94% of Americans and the environment by the rich. If the plutocracy is not ended by the ballot box in November, there aren’t enough mercenaries in the in the coronavirus infected portion of the world to keep the oligarchs in power.

A middle class revolution in a time of plague in the nuclear era, along with climate change, are together enormously dangerous to mankind’s survival. It is frightening that hardly anybody acknowledges this. The USA is about to restart testing nuclear weapons. Stupid!

Posted by: VietnamVet | May 31 2020 0:38 utc | 101

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 0:30 utc | 99 Frankly, the federal, state, county, and city forces need to defend themselves and prevent further destruction. I wish all of them a safe night, and I wish the rioters and looters a very, very bad night.

And I wish the city, county, state and Federal law enforcement and politicians a painful death, and hopefully no protesters - except the morons - get even a scratch.

The only good cop is a dead cop.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 0:38 utc | 102

Karlof1, care to point out a system that works better than ours?
Got any examples of countries treating blacks better than the United States?
Let’s hear about your undescribed unicorns, friend.

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 0:38 utc | 103

Robert @103--

Sure, Russia. Have a good night!

Posted by: karlof1 | May 31 2020 0:45 utc | 104

@ 60 nemesis calling.. thanks.. i find this right- left lingo almost meaningless... i appreciate the response...

@ 64 mark2... thanks... the dynamics are confusing...

@ all - documentary - four horsemen worth watching...

@ robert... i think many systems are better then the one that is presently happening in the usa - canada for a start, although there are a lot of similarities, canada is not plagued by the racial conflicts that the usa has been built on.. but i think this is all a distraction and besides the point.. when a system as it presently stands in the usa is not subject to criticism or question, that is a real problem in itself... the usa is clearly a country in a state of real decline.. one must find some ways of changing what is not working.. that is what motivates many here to question what the fuck is going on and seek some better answers then what are offered - a vote every 4 years being something more people need to question...

Posted by: james | May 31 2020 0:46 utc | 105

Hi Mr. Hack, obviously, you have never built a property or a business destroyed by looters. The job of police is to deter or prevent destruction of private property. Also, you have obviously never faced a criminal. How old are you?
Best wishes to you for peace and prosperity.

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 0:46 utc | 106

Other versions have 38/45 of the arrested in Minnesota having local addresses - in stark contrast to what the Governor said.
Sounds all pretty mixed up here, and basic economics is the driver, not politics.


https://www.zerohedge.com/political/they-are-outsiders-minneapolis-officials-blame-white-supremacist-terror-cells-rioting?

Posted by: Michael Droy | May 31 2020 0:49 utc | 107

@ 96 robert quotes..

"I am curious about your point about enriching African Americans. What on earth do you think white Americans have been doing, particularly in the past fifty years?
..."do you think I want to give even more of my tax money to these people? After Medicaid, food stamps, affirmative action in the universities and workplaces, free legal representation and so much more. C’mon..."

it seems you think blacks are only good for exploiting.... the prison system in the usa continues to exploit them and that is the face of white america talking... with people in the usa with attitudes like yours, it's obvious why the usa is headed into the gutter...

Posted by: james | May 31 2020 0:52 utc | 108

Hi karlof1,
Thanks for saying “hi.” But Russia?
Suggest you do some searching on terms like “Putin fortune,” “Putin mansion,” and “Putin estate.”
The United States Congress is certainly corrupted, especially by Israeli interests, but our politicians are cheap compared to Russian politicians...
Good night, friend.

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 0:57 utc | 109

Posted by: Thomas | May 30 2020 18:58 utc | @#7"

"Mayor or someone in authority makes the police stand down
- Then masked men appear and attack"

I'll add to your comment:
- All of the above shown on tv.
- Public watches tv and supports stong action.
- The "shooting of the looters" starts.
- Protests die down.

Been happening for over 50 years, same playbook.

Posted by: red1chief | May 31 2020 0:59 utc | 110

Infosec expoert Jeffrey Carr's Twitter feed directed me to this interesting tweet.

Uncovered: Last October, the head of the Minneapolis police union — which days ago warned against a “rush to judgment” of the officers involved in George Floyd’s death — spoke at a Trump rally and praised him for ending the “handcuffing and oppression” of police under Obama.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 0:59 utc | 111

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 0:20 utc | 97
Robert, Thanks.

Here is what's been going on for the past 60 years. Please educate yourself. Of course the lynchings only resulted in approximately 3700 deaths.

Thanks again for your remarks.

The New Jim Crow
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Jim_Crow

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | May 31 2020 1:00 utc | 112

Lozion #94

Its not isolated cases of disgruntled officers, rogue elements of the force or right-wing nutcases. It is a nationwide ongoing campaign of terror to instil fear as fear is the prime obstacle to motion and therefore change. Time to stop being naïve..


Exactly and Mark2 #84 made it abundantly clear how the terror campaign is franchised out to irregular/informal cells across the nation. The 'KKK' has gone full revolutionary and repressive.

Be tactical and keep clear of violence and do not give it cover to operate. New tactics for the new age are needed.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 31 2020 1:01 utc | 113

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 0:46 utc | 106 obviously, you have never built a property or a business destroyed by looters.

That is correct.

"The job of police is to deter or prevent destruction of private property."

That is also correct, as far as it goes.

"Also, you have obviously never faced a criminal."

I *was* a criminal - for three months in 1992. I did nine years for armed bank robbery (and the purpose of those robberies was to obtain weapons and resources to do a lot worse than what these idiot looters are doing - in short, to be the worst terrorist the US has ever seen.) While doing time, I "faced" many criminals. See my previous post in the previous thread on the various classes of criminals and why they are criminals.

"How old are you?"

71 - although I'm told I look considerably younger. :-)

You obviously are not familiar with my posts here, where I specify that I am an individualist anarchist (albeit somewhat a "post-anarchist" and extreme Transhumanist.) That should help reorient you to why I post what I do.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 1:06 utc | 114

Most likely, everybody here is correct: there are a lot of chaos, a lot of different political interests from all the different classes in the USA in this historical event right now. The only unknown is which parts are playing the dominant part and which will prevail.

However, everybody here is also asking the wrong question: it is not "who" is doing this, but "why" is the USA in a so fragile state - to the point a single police officer killing a random man in the street being enough of a trigger to plunge it into a significant chaos.

Posted by: vk | May 31 2020 1:07 utc | 115

@20 bob sykes " The rather chaotic response to COVID occurred because the responses were under the legal control of the 50 state governors. The federal government’s role is limited by our Constitution to be advisory in these cases."

I live in a Commonwealth, bob. A Federation of states.

We are going through this same pandemic with a system of government where the health responses are the legal responsibility of the state premiers, and the Federal Government is limited by Constitution to an advisory role.

An in my country (with a population less than 10% of the USA's) there has been exactly 103 deaths from Covid-19. And exactly 7185 total cases of Covid-19.

Versus 102,785 deaths in the USA, and 1,737,950 total cases in the USA i.e. we are doing two orders of magnitude better than the USA

The disparity is so stark that each and every day the USA has ten times the deaths that Australia has had *in* *total*, and we are now reporting way less than one death PER WEEK, whereas 1,265 died in the USA just last night.

That difference has nothing to do with your Federal system of government, because Australia also has a Federal system of government.

The difference is because our system of government still functions as it was intended to function.

Yours, not so much.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | May 31 2020 1:07 utc | 116

Jackrabbit will especially remember almost 4 years ago when I wrote that Ziofascist Trump, aka, Neofascist gangster in the WH, as Cornel West refers to him, would fast track real revolution while with Hillary the revolution would remain simmering and controlled for longer. I wrote then that that was the ONLY reason I would rather the evil Trump than the other evil Hillary, and that one minute after Trump won I would begin exposing the bastard for who he really is: the Chosen of the 1%.

Stop trying to define whose doing what in these riots. This is a trap do de-legitimize a class war that is emerging from the sight of a televised murder without conscience by fascist thugs of the state; i.e. the capitalist regime, and accelerated by the Chosen Fascist leader. Trump is not the catalyst; he is the accelerant.

Thank goodness international travel is highly restricted or the riots would be blamed on operators from other countries that the U.S. gov is demonizing every day! At least we don't have to deal with that bullshet.

So gov officials must answer this: How are rioters in Hong Kong, Tehran or Moscow who destroy property, set cars or tires on fire, or throw molotov cocktails or break windows, that the U.S. uses as pawns and issues threats to pretend to protect these from their respective governments, different from riotors on U.S. streets these past few days doing all the same and that the national guard, state police and municipal police are mobilized to counter with tear gas, pepper spray, rubber bullets, takedown and arrest and threatened with overwhelming force just today as per Minnesota's leadership's statement and even by Trump who already gave DOD his approval to mobilize at any moment?

Now, this is not to encourage lawlessness, but why is it the U.S. protects rioters in other countries by sanctioning the governments who try to put down rioting, but in the U.S., the military is being mobilized in greater numbers just 4 days in to take down the rioting with overwhelming force? Oh my! Maybe China should scream: human rights abuse of U.S. citizens!?

U.S. officials now understand how it feels to be overwhelmed by revolt and this without having their hands tied by regime-change shet disturbers like THEM who pay agitators and hire operators to destroy other countries.

So to say, Neoliberals are blaming outside agitators like white supremacists and Trump is blaming Antifa strategically is more factual. That's only because they both can't blame operators from other countries because of Covid travel restrictions, although, some talking head already implied agitators could be white supremacists OR even Russians. Imagine that. Because it's too much of a stretch to deduce that people are done with being OPPRESSED by the rich and powerful whose enforcers are the police and the U.S. Military Complex.

That people are retaliating against a system oppressing them for decades with either the largest prison system in the world and/or systemic inequality and poverty as control mechanisms; naaaah, that animus is too far-fetched, and not what's driving this rage in the streets. Really??? Think again!

The system has been on the brink for an unrealistic length of time.

It is a grave mistake to use even greater oppression via whelming military force against people justifiably on fire and for Trump's Justice Department to issue threats to Federally prosecute individuals who cross state lines to riot and punish rage before justice is satisfied with the People with the arrest of all police thugs who participated in the murder of a black man and then furthered by initiating a serious transformation of an unjust, inequal and inhumane system.

Who knows? Maybe Louis Farakhan was right in 2016 when he said that Trump would take America into the abyss of Hell on a rocketship. It rang true to me then, and it still does.

Posted by: Circe | May 31 2020 1:08 utc | 117

Hi James, and thank you for the thoughtful response at 105.
But how are Canada’s relations going with what the dominant culture calls the “Original People?” Seriously. Is everything hunky-dory? I don’t think so... do you? Has Canada enacted affirmative action laws in education and the workplaces for them? We did, many, many years ago. And we’re paying for it...
You stated that the United States’ system is not subject to criticism. You’re kidding, I am sure. What do you think is going on in this page? C’mon...
And I am totally inline with your view that major change must happen here in America. But it’s not just here that the changes will occur. As usual, we are just the first to be introducing cultural change. I expect all the peoples of the world to throw off the bindings of the financial elite, in whatever country they can be found.
I expect a very interesting next couple of years. I bet you do, too.

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 1:12 utc | 118

Oh wait, this is good one...

‘Heir of Louis XVI’ mercilessly ROASTED after appealing for statue of guillotined king damaged in Kentucky protest to be repaired

BTW, this is Franco´s great-grandson, currently married to the heiress of one of the richest oligarchs in Venezuela ...for that dude of the "communist gangs"...and for all to see that with a military junta, nothing will change...but will get worse...simply, the looters associate amongst themselves, intermarry, share the gains...and so on...

Posted by: H.Schmatz | May 31 2020 1:15 utc | 119

By the way, read some of the replies to the tweet I linked to above.

One references this article:

A 2007 lawsuit said the president of the Minneapolis police union wore a 'white power' patch on his motorcycle jacket and discriminated against officers of color.

Ah, wait, that link goes to a site that demands removing the ad-blocker. Fuck that. Use this link instead:

Minneapolis Police Union President Allegedly Wore a “White Power Patch” and Made Racist Remarks


In 2007, Kroll also referred to former US Rep. Keith Ellison, who is Muslim and Black and has pushed for criminal justice reforms, as a terrorist, according to a lawsuit filed by now–Police Chief Medaria Arradondo alleging racism within the police department. The lawsuit accused Kroll of wearing a motorcycle jacket with a white-power patch sewed into the fabric, and said he had “a history of discriminatory attitudes and conduct.” He has told reporters he was part of the City Heat motorcycle club, some of whose members have been described by the Anti-Defamation League as displaying white supremacist symbols. Kroll did not respond to a request for comment but has denied the allegations in the past.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 1:16 utc | 120

Posted by: vk | May 31 2020 1:07 utc | 115 However, everybody here is also asking the wrong question: it is not "who" is doing this, but "why" is the USA in a so fragile state - to the point a single police officer killing a random man in the street being enough of a trigger to plunge it into a significant chaos.

That's because everyone assumes they already know the why. :-)

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 1:19 utc | 121

Hi James at 108,
You said that I think that blacks are only good for exploiting. I said nothing of the kind. In fact, what I said was closer to “White people are getting tired of being exploited.”
I don’t like the privatized prison system here. It’s disgusting. But we need to put away criminals.
Or, do you think they should run free?
Wake up, James. Please. Do you want people who have no sense of propriety running over you, your family, and your assets?

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 1:23 utc | 122

@ 118 robert... this is the same question isreal asks everyone when they are confronted with the injustices they regularly execute to the letter on palestinians... canada has tried to right the wrongs of the past... it sounds as though you would be happy to ignore the history of slavery which the usa is built upon and which it still relies on..

Posted by: james | May 31 2020 1:25 utc | 123

Hi Sakineh,
And hello to you as well.
Of course whites killed blacks. And thank you for the Wiki link.
But dude, what do you know about black-on-white murders?
Nothing?
Why is that?
(It’s not your fault)
You might find some enlightenment at the website of the United States Department of Justice.

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 1:28 utc | 124

@ 121 robert... the privatized prison system relies on criminals and those sitting in limbo awaiting trail - typically all black and latinos given the racist views of many in the usa including president trump... you might not like it, but at least you are not suffering at the hands of it like so many black and latino people.. remember who signed onto 3 strikes and you're out?? shit like this is what the usa excels at...

Posted by: james | May 31 2020 1:29 utc | 125

To karlof1 - I will look into the Four Horsemen film you referenced. Thanks for that suggestion.

To some others in the thread who remain convinced that the white "protesters" are Antifa or other left-wing opposition groups, please explain to us how many Antifa operatives drive brand new black GMC SUVs and operate just like undercover police.

Furthermore there are instances, like the one in D.C. above where not only does the same OBVIOUS police officer claim to be media (in that case, CNN) but dresses just like the Antifa stereotype.

In reading some of the other comments, I think a few people make good points about why POC might in fact burn down affordable housing developments during a protest/riot. I hadn't considered that angle. But it doesn't change the fact that the "cops" are infiltrating and instigating vandalism and violence in many of the cities where protests are occurring.

Finally, to the notion that it's "all outside agitators" as initially stated by some members of the government in Michigan and Minnesota, the one story linked in this thread so far had such a small sample size that all it really accomplished was debunking the early "all were from outside the state" comments by one particular politician (Mayor of Minneapolis I think) because the sample size was so small (and discussion of it was pushed way to the end of the article):

To be sure, the data is not conclusive and is a small sample size. KARE 11 looked only at the arrests from May 29 to May 30 that were made available on the jail roster as of 11 a.m.

So yes, the mayor was obviously wrong based on the information available from those two particular days (or is that just one 24-hr period?) - and we still don't know who everybody is yet. Furthermore those are just the ones who actually got arrested!, so anyone that says the notion is totally bunk is going off of highly incomplete information.

Again, I ask people to please apply the same amount of scrutiny that you do to the narratives emerging from the center, and real left even, to what you are reading about Soros and Antifa's alleged involvement especially when we have numerous examples of video proof (or very close to it) that the "authorities" and other right-wing groups have indeed, if not infiltrated, blended into the ongoing mostly peaceful protests and instigated some of the violence and looting we've been seeing all over the news.

Posted by: _K_C_ | May 31 2020 1:29 utc | 126

you definitely won't find justice in the us dept of justice.. that much is a given..

Posted by: james | May 31 2020 1:30 utc | 127

Thank you, Robert @59. I tend to agree with you. Your information on the Minneapolis/St. Paul protests is important, and in photographs I saw a mixture of white and black ordinary citizens justifiably outraged at the police brutality occurrence. I don't know if Mr. Floyd had family there, but my condolences to them for the untimely death of their son. His transgression did not warrant such treatment.

The looting is a sad comment on society's neglect, and doesn't fall under the category of rightful protest. It is a sign of endemic disconnect, frustration and anger against the system pf extreme inequality and injustice so many citizens in this country must endure. It's wrong, but there but for fortune go you and I. Most Americans know this. And among the poor, the disenfranchised, and the destitute there are many truly fine individuals, families even; my own son has taught me this.

Posted by: juliania | May 31 2020 1:34 utc | 128

Question on the use of VPNs and proxy servers

In one of the COVID-19 threads, b mentioned that he had been deleting some comments that come from known proxy services. I was curious as to whether those comments *also* contained misinformation/disrespectful commentary or whether just using a proxy is frowned upon around here and results in automatic deletion. To the latter, I am currently (and always will) use a proxy when I am commenting on matters that are monitored by the U.S. government and other spy agencies, so I hope that b understands it's a safety thing, not just a practice used by "trolls" or misinformation agents.

In fact I would recommend that EVERYONE use a reliable VPN/proxy for commentary on the Evil Empire these days. It's not perfect for sure, even Tor has been back-doored from what I have seen. But it's a good way to protect your anonymity if that is something important to you. Does anyone have any experience with this?

Posted by: _K_C_ | May 31 2020 1:35 utc | 129

Well to abund more in my theory of a military plot, here he comes the SEAL who allegedly shot Bin Laden calling for a crackdown on the riotters by the military.

https://www.rt.com/usa/490253-binladen-seal-calls-crackdown-rioters/

That this was all prepared to that end gets increasingly clear.

Posted by: H.Schmatz | May 31 2020 1:38 utc | 130

Couldn't happen to a nicer group of people...

CNN Center in Atlanta damaged during protests

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 1:42 utc | 131

Posted by: _K_C_ | May 31 2020 1:35 utc | 128 Does anyone have any experience with this?

I run Private Internet Access and haven't had any problems with b deleting my stuff. If he has any automatic stuff set up to detect and block posts from proxies.VPNs, it's probably fairly specific, not a blanket block.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 1:47 utc | 132

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 1:28 utc | 123
No Robert, not getting stuck in a rat-hole of new questions with you.
Please come back and report here, after you've read -- a much sanitized version (wiki) of the actual event, so you won't freak out on me, allofsuddan, namsaying?

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | May 31 2020 1:48 utc | 133

@ 128 _K_C_ .. like richard says, i don't think it's a problem running what you are running... he deletes posts for different reasons then that.. thanks for your comments!!

Posted by: james | May 31 2020 1:51 utc | 134

Posted by: _K_C_ | May 31 2020 1:35 utc | 128 Does anyone have any experience with this?

As an addendum to my post, what I meant by "specific" is b might be blocking a certain proxy that is being heavily used by trolls or DDoS traffic. If that happens to be a proxy you use, you'd get blocked. But there are plenty of proxies and there are Web sites that list open proxies, so you could change your proxy to another one.

I doubt b blocks any VPNs, however, because a lot of different people will use any given VPN. I'm sure he knows that.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 2:00 utc | 135

the insane number of trolls and hasbaras attacking B indicates B hit the right spot in pointing outside agitator..

these trolls are asssigned here in MOA to smear B and poh poh his post

sadly regulars instantly spot these trolls and hasbara here cause they stik like sore thumb

Posted by: milomilo | May 31 2020 2:04 utc | 136

@113 UT. Correction: "The 'KKK' has gone full counter revolutionary and repressive.

Posted by: Lozion | May 31 2020 2:05 utc | 137

Apologies to barflies. You too Robert.
My inner Dude just rises (duderino/duderina) when I'm called dude. Oh the fancy. Jeff Bridges's got nothing on me.

The Dude abides.

As if anyone here even knows my gender. Calling me dude must include the new age dudette. I know it should. What say you ladies?

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | May 31 2020 2:07 utc | 138

Hi Mr. Hack,
Thank you for introducing yourself. You might enjoy this story...
In roughly 1968, I was hitchhiking from Eugene, Oregon to Bend, Oregon. I got stranded in Cascadia, in a rain. A guy was tending his lawn as I was walking by, and he invited me in to his house to have some tea.
He told me about Cascadia, starting with his membership in the Students for a Democratic Society. He had planted bombs at the Boeing factory and fled to his cozy little Craftsman house in Cascadia. He was not the only one to be fleeing. He told me that there was a truce in Cascadia between various armed groups, and that people from all sides were being protected by large organizations in Cascadia.
After tea and some enlightenment, I went back onto the road and a Peterbuilt log truck (without a trailer) picked me up. I was treated to what might be called the Peterbuilt-Porsche ride through the Cascades, as the big cab slid so beautifully around wet corners.

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 2:17 utc | 139

you got this one wrong MoA. the outsiders are outside the mainstream narrative.not outside of the communities on fire. seriouly you think there are super sophisticted and hyper organized bus loads of people showing up all across the country to manipulate the pissed off people in the streets - magical thinking... get real, people are fed up feeling disrespected, tossed aside, walked on.spit on and.trampled upon by the neofascists and george is just the spark that started the blaze.

Posted by: phlipn | May 31 2020 2:20 utc | 140

I have watched The Four Horsemen and agree with others pushing all to watch. The only problem with it and all the comments here is the same......not big enough context/perspective. Some go there with the observation that there are similarities between what is happening in US and what "US"(empire) has done in other countries....but not the connection to the transnational private finance system.

Empire is global and bigger than the US. The US is just the titular face of global private finance empire because of the Reserve Currency status. The US is being thrown under the bus in this Shock Doctrine event by the global elite.......maybe this will reduce US consumption in relation to rest of world.....

I am sure glad I moved out of Portland, Oregon a couple of years ago......I expect big cities to be the focus of conflict with smatterings of rural dog fights.

Humanity is in a civilization war about public/private finance. It will be interesting to see if the class war focus can be maintained in the face of firehose media belching race/China/Russia/Iran/Syria/Venezuela wars.

Posted by: psychohistorian | May 31 2020 2:29 utc | 141

Dear karlof1 @ 86, you know I respect you to the nth degree, but what do you propose the people put in the place of the current system that is so out of balance? At this point in time, won't there be more likely than not such organized power hungry groups as will move into the vacuum - I'm sorry but I'm not a fan of that! While most of the protesters are ordinary folk who have legitimate grievances, these are not persons capable of setting up a better system than the one that has been trashed by the oligarchs.

I'm not against change - that's obviously what we need. But most societies that are working well for their populations at present are using ideas from western political theory done right - I think of my own country, New Zealand. And it's easier in small countries, for sure, so maybe states should regain some of the powers the federal government has usurped - that would be good.

I still think the system is a good one and can be made to work.

Posted by: juliania | May 31 2020 2:32 utc | 142

Hi James, at 122.
I am not sure what question (the Israelis ask) that you are referring to. Please explain. I do not mean to be ignorant.
The US system does not rely on slavery, and it has not since 1865.
Please remember Holy Jesus’ words, “The poor will always be with you.”
And please, research the amounts of money that the dominant culture has given to the minority since 1965. And how little it has benefited anyone...
thank you for the discussion!

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 2:33 utc | 143

At least I'm not alone when I say that this blog, it's author and many of the regular commentators have become alien to me. Like the U.S.of A.
B now quotes Bellingcat! Alarm bells were disturbing my cognition so l read that link and what did I learn about big igloo/bugaloo? Well, think stupid jihadis only white/black American males in different dress-ups with the obligatory weaponry. It's a gig I guess. But it also looks like these poor fools are being groomed for a role in U.S.regime change.
I saw that police brutality- Minnesota- incident too, again and again and again, until I told my husband "no more ABC news, ever". Your media is sick.That man's death (we have to believe he died) was simply weaponised.
Political rearrangements can not "restore" the U.S. There has to be a deeper reckoning and the distractive media simply precludes that happening. Better that "b" gives his readers some background on the senior individuals in the U.S. military.

Posted by: Australian lady | May 31 2020 2:33 utc | 144

The shooting of unarmed blacks protesters would probably be welcome by Trump's core voters? I reckon possible but very low probability. You don't have to be very smart to realise the consequences. If you liked lockdown, you'll LOVE martial law.

Posted by: Bill | May 31 2020 2:35 utc | 145

Political rearrangements coming from the "two party system" will never change anything, because the two parties are like two wings on the same bird. It is all totally corrupt.

I would possibly consider voting for someone who is clear on ending the wars and cleaning house, someone not part of the system, for example, Jesse Ventura

Posted by: Perimetr | May 31 2020 2:37 utc | 146

Hi James at 124, the “Three Strikes” rule was passed by Congress in the 1990s, long before private jails existed. I too think that private jails are a travesty. But the bill aimed to put career criminals behind bars. I am curious, what do you have against that?

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 2:38 utc | 147

Hi Juliana at 127.
Beautifully said, you!

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 2:43 utc | 148

KC at 128,
You should know that one of the earliest investors in Tor was a CIA front company.

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 2:46 utc | 149

@ 146 robert... i appreciate the thoughtful nature of your interaction here.. thanks for that... i recommend you read a few books by some people who have been locked away who were innocent, starting with the book i have been mentioning here at moa the past 1-2 weeks by albert woodfox called solitary.. or you can try getting a copy of one of jarvis jay masters books - finding freedom, or that bird has my wings... what i have against what you refer to career criminals is a system that is stacked against black people to the point they all look like career criminals to a number of people, when in fact they are anything but... i have no problem holding criminals accountable - unlike say how the usa gov't never holds its own actions accountable on the world stage... in fact it is this ''selective'' accountability that really drives me bonkers...

Posted by: james | May 31 2020 2:47 utc | 150

Hi Sakineh,
What “rat hole” are tou speaking of?

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 2:48 utc | 151

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 2:17 utc | 138 In roughly 1968, I was hitchhiking from Eugene, Oregon to Bend, Oregon.

I went to Lane Community College in Eugene, Oregon, back in 1978. Was going to shift over to UofO after my second year. But the National Direct Student Loan decided to cut me off, claiming I was on for two years when I had only been on for one. At the same time, the Veterans Administration altered their payment schedule for VA loans that summer so that they would pay after credits were earned instead of before (because supposedly a lot of vets were getting paid without actually attending their classes). This was during Jimmy Carter's terms when he was busy cutting vets off from everything because...Vietnam.

So that ended my IT education until the 2000's when I went to San Francisco Community College. Between those times, my IT career was basically ruined because I had too little education and too little experience. I managed to make ends meet, but not well. Lots of unemployment and occasional homelessness.

And people wonder why I want to become a terrorist and burn down this state (and all states.)

Could I have done better? Perhaps. I take some - perhaps most - of the responsibility. But this society did not make it easy and indeed went out of its way to screw me over.

So now I intend to screw it over by any means necessary. So any damage this country or its government and its elites take is no problem for me.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 2:51 utc | 152

Posted by: psychohistorian | May 31 2020 2:29 utc | 140 The only problem with it and all the comments here is the same......not big enough context/perspective.

Leave me out of that inclusiveness. My context/perspective is way outside your ascribing this all to "private finance". As an individualist anarchist and Transhumanist, I know that *all* of these problems are due to a long list of causes: the state, religion, society, civilization, and human nature. "Private finance" doesn't even come in on the top five. It's just a symptom of the rest.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 2:55 utc | 153

Hi Sakineh at 137,
Please excuse me for referring to you as a “dude.”
But please preserve your dignity by not referencing your sexuality.

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 3:01 utc | 154

Posted by: juliania | May 31 2020 2:32 utc | 141 While most of the protesters are ordinary folk who have legitimate grievances, these are not persons capable of setting up a better system than the one that has been trashed by the oligarchs.

You're right about that. That requires considerably more awareness and logical thought than they possess. They might be able to tear it down, but even that requires strategical and tactical comprehension they don't have.

"I'm not against change - that's obviously what we need."

Reminds me of what someone, maybe a Situationist, said once: "Ask someone what they would want to preserve in the 'new society.' It will turn out to be almost everything."

"But most societies that are working well for their populations at present are using ideas from western political theory done right"

Except none of them *are* "done right." And no, they are not "working well" - they are leading everyone off a cliff. It's just that most people aren't aware enough to see the cliff.

"I think of my own country, New Zealand."

Don't know the situation in New Zealand, other than what I've read about gun control there - which was a mess and a failure, from what I've read (and I'm pro-gun, so that's fine with me.)

"I still think the system is a good one and can be made to work."

Nope. No chance. It may take another hundred years (but I don't think so(, but sooner or later the excrement will hit the rotating blades. And anyone not prepared will suffer.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 3:02 utc | 155

Posted by: Bill | May 31 2020 2:35 utc | 144 The shooting of unarmed blacks protesters would probably be welcome by Trump's core voters? I reckon possible but very low probability. You don't have to be very smart to realise the consequences.

Trump's supporters aren't very smart. That's why he's President (along with the fact that a lot of people *were* smart enough to realize that Clinton was, as I like to say, the most corrupt politician since Hermann Goering.

"If you liked lockdown, you'll LOVE martial law."

Yup. And it's quite possible that is what is intended. And Trump either will be fine with it or too dumb to prevent it even he doesn't like it.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 3:05 utc | 156

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 2:38 utc | 146 But the bill aimed to put career criminals behind bars.

No, that was the *excuse*. The real reasons were as usual many.

One reason was to jack up the budget for the prison-industrial-complex.

I was at Oxford, Wisconsin, Federal Correctional Institute (FCI), a medium-security facility. I was flirting with one of the secretaries in the housing unit office. They hauled me in, accused me of being a threat (I wasn't), then shipped me to Leavenworth Penitentiary in Kansas, a high-security facility. Even though my counselor had suggested reducing my inmate rating and shipping me to a camp - a low-security facility - just earlier, since I generally was a well-behaved inmate. After I went to Leavenworth, my rating was raised.

Later, I learned that the BOP had changed its rating system so that *many* inmates had their ratings elevanted, and more inmates were shipped to higher-security facilities. The reason was the BOp wanted to build five more penitentiaries, so needed the existing ones to become even more crowded so they could get the budget approved.

Why did they want more pens? Because BOP personnel have a limited career path. You can become warden at a camp, an FCI, or a Pen. You get paid more at each level. But there are only so many Pens. Also, if the BOP gets a bigger budget and more facilities, presumably those who run it get more opportunity for job advancement.

It's all about the *money*, honey! And the power.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 3:14 utc | 157

Hi James at 147, thank you for the compliment and I would like to return it. When we talk, we learn.
I will share a bit from my life.
I have probably done more in my life to help minorities than anyone else here on b’s comments page, perhaps more than all of us bar flies combined. My career was that of an educator in minority areas. And to a certain extent, my job was to promote brown people... to jobs and to higher academic positions. Was I doing the right thing?
I participated in the great American Experiment in Racial Harmony. I was a kind of activist in my own little way. I was taken by the MSM’s propaganda. No longer.
No longer.
Seriously, no longer.

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 3:16 utc | 158

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 2:46 utc | 148 You should know that one of the earliest investors in Tor was a CIA front company.

Tor was developed by scientists working under contract from the Navy. From Wikipedia:


The core principle of Tor, "onion routing", was developed in the mid-1990s by United States Naval Research Laboratory employees, mathematician Paul Syverson, and computer scientists Michael G. Reed and David Goldschlag, with the purpose of protecting U.S. intelligence communications online. Onion routing was further developed by DARPA in 1997.

The alpha version of Tor, developed by Syverson and computer scientists Roger Dingledine and Nick Mathewson[18] and then called The Onion Routing project, or Tor project, launched on 20 September 2002.[1][26] The first public release occurred a year later.[27] On 13 August 2004, Syverson, Dingledine, and Mathewson presented "Tor: The Second-Generation Onion Router" at the 13th USENIX Security Symposium.[28] In 2004, the Naval Research Laboratory released the code for Tor under a free license, and the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) began funding Dingledine and Mathewson to continue its development.[18]

In December 2006, Dingledine, Mathewson, and five others founded The Tor Project, a Massachusetts-based 501(c)(3) research-education nonprofit organization responsible for maintaining Tor.[29] The EFF acted as The Tor Project's fiscal sponsor in its early years, and early financial supporters of The Tor Project included the U.S. International Broadcasting Bureau, Internews, Human Rights Watch, the University of Cambridge, Google, and Netherlands-based Stichting NLnet.[30][31][32][33][34]

From this period onward, the majority of funding sources came from the U.S. government.

I've heard the TOR system accused of being a "trohan horse" before. I doubt it. The code is open source, and I can assure you that probably any number of hackers have carefully perused it for backdoors or other sneak attacks.

That the NSA can track connections into and out of it, and, by inserting "false flag nodes" into it, penetrate some of it, I don't doubt.

If you want to avoid state surveillance, you have to be *mobile*. Doing *anything* illegal from one's home or other fixed location is a free ticket to jail (assuming your "crime" rises to the level worthy of prosecution - downloading copyrighted files will just get you cut off from your ISP or in rare cases sued.)

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 3:23 utc | 159

Mr. Hack at 156, your remarks are educational (for me).

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 3:32 utc | 160

I wish peace and prosperity for every bar fly.

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 3:38 utc | 161

What “rat hole” are tou speaking of?

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 2:48 utc | 150

This rat hole Robert. The rat hole of you asking new questions without having done the minimum required reading on the subject.
I provided the link. I am awaiting your book report. No new question answered until you have a basic foundation of what you are talking about. Do the reading. It'll do you some good.

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | May 31 2020 3:42 utc | 162

What's needed are disciplined, integrated and armed workers militias to protect and defend protests, strikes and neighbourhoods from the cops, scabs, the National Guard and their fascist allies. One should never equate armed self-defense with rightwing vigilantes and the like. Those who call for 'gun control' only wish for the monopoly of violence to remain with the chief perpetrator of the violence, the repressive apparatus and core of the state -- its bodies of armed men. 'Gun control' is a dangerous delusion and is always directed at the oppressed, never the defenders of the ruling order.

When ordinary people are attacked by the state and its allies, they are forced to defend themselves by any means necessary. Before burning down the precincts/cop stations, it's always useful to first drive the cops out of their sties by mass action, then raid their armouries to help arm and form neighbourhood and workers militias. These militias must be drilled in the use of firearms and in military tactics. The cops are dangerous criminal gangs and also 'disciplined', in their own way, to enforce the rule of the bourgeoisie. They must be disarmed and driven off the streets by mass action and the formation of workers and neighbourhood militias which will be the first necessary steps in achieving that, and ultimately for taking power.

Posted by: Stephen Morrell | May 31 2020 4:14 utc | 163

Richard Steven Hack @ 152, I might have agreed with you, even just earlier this evening (!) that the core problem is not as psychohistorian keeps telling us, a matter orchestrated by the financiers - until that is, I finally took karlof1's advice to listen to the hour long radio interview Michael Hudson has at his site. I strongly recommend it; it convinced me. Professor Hudson lays out how ruthless a debt economy really is.

The example he gives of New York City is a stark explanation of what occurs in communities when a country stays on the path Rome forged for civilization. As an aside, it fits with my own pet peeve that Christianity is always judged on the Roman or Western empirical model, when eastern Christianity (with a small "e") aligns much more closely with the other major religions of the world, and is the Christianity of us humble folk who want very much to live in peace.

Posted by: juliania | May 31 2020 4:34 utc | 164

Thanks b. for the link to Brother West. He's always so good at explaining things.

Posted by: TDeL | May 31 2020 4:39 utc | 165

there is something to this "boogaloo bois" thing people should take seriously.

I mentioned a book I'm reading that I will reference again: Dark Star Rising: Magick and Power in the Age of Trump, by Gary Lachman.

Hawaiian shirts and igloos. if you don't know what I'm talking about it's because things are moving too fast to keep up.

Posted by: lizard | May 31 2020 4:49 utc | 166

I read b's piece with a sense of mounting despair until I got to the bellingcat link than laughed at the thought of watching the flock of conformist contrarians moronically following b down a rabbit hole of deceit.

I don't do demos much any more chiefly because if they are reported nowadays, the story being presented by the media as to who is demonstrating & why they are is always incorrect. Sometimes that is down to the naivety of the journo, compounded by his/her ignorance, but mostly it is because the journos are deliberately mis-informing their audience, foisting pure, fact-free propaganda on em.
So most demonstrations, protests, whatever, are counterproductive nowadays, so I steer clear of them. I do not believe this groundswell coming together over yet another murder by cop is counterproductive, but equally I don't believe that the seeming inability for any but a few committed individuals to try to keep the group all pointing in the same direction is accidental. For that problem I blame the dem party.

I started joining with others pushing for change close to 60 years ago and every protest I have ever attended from my first to my last, has always featured police & intelligence agents attempting to sabotage the protest one way or another.

I have written about this at MoA several times over the years and found, unsuprisingly, that most have had an identical experience.
By the late 70's properly organised protests used 'marshalls' to identify & nullify police and intelligence undercover agents.
This is not difficult these creeps usually carry an article (eg an umbrella on a sunny day) or wear a colour so that they won't cop any friendly fire.
They perform many roles some laughably obvious, others nasty & secret, but a trained set of eyes can detect them then set about nullifying the agents.
Surronding them with trusted people who can shout down their attempts to create destruction or retreat when the protest must move forward is the basic job. Once a few have been indentified the next job is to have their sleazy colleagues in uniform concerned for the well being of their 'brothers in blue' hoick, spit.
Once a few have been surrounded it is a simple job for the marshalls to move the spies deeper into the crowd, away from any position the pigs believe they can quickly 'rescue' them.
It is at that point the coppers will begin extracting all agents if they can & since in most instances that is the agents not yet identified, we quickly find the protest has been purged of all paid troublemakers who haven't been nullified.
Obviously there are a couple more complexities particularly in regard to surveillance. Early on in a protest positions which are difficult to surveill must be identified and occupied and that is where known agents should be held.

Yeah yeah tech has greatly complicated this but we haven't seen any organised resistance to agents & saboteurs. Just committed individuals. Why is this? Because the dems are gonna try to have their cake & eat it. They want to seem to be supporting the justified anger of the masses while nobbling the protests to ensure their racist, demented & corrupt candidate doesn't get stuck with an outcome which could upset white middle class greedies, or worse the corporate bosses who the dems answer to.
BLM has been subjugated by the dems, just as they subjugate any mass movement whose goals appear to align, but actually conflict with, their secret objectives.

Lastly a truly mass popular uprising will motivate a vast range of humans and their particular sets of values. Aside from trying to run a straight game by nullifying state operatives, organisers must be happy to tolerate the gamut of human beliefs & desires without criticising or questioning any of em. A mass uprising means involving the masses.

Posted by: A User | May 31 2020 4:49 utc | 167

Why are regulars engaging with obvious trolls? james you should know better. These slimebags never engage directly with an issue, their responses always pick at the edges of your reply trying to discredit the sucker who fed 'em while avoiding the central issue.
Don't give racist scum oxygen.

Posted by: A User | May 31 2020 4:55 utc | 168

I participated in occupy Wall Street marches in NYC. It was weak and embarrassing - just phony theater that accomplished less than nothing.

This ain’t that.

It’s really the perfect storm with all the unemployment and generalized anger and polarization. No one can predict what is going to happen. I doubt anyone knows what is even happening now - it is such a huge collision of people and events.

But I can’t imagine the US being remotely the same by August.

Posted by: OHH | May 31 2020 4:59 utc | 169

Posted by: Stephen Morrell | May 31 2020 4:14 utc | 162 Those who call for 'gun control' only wish for the monopoly of violence to remain with the chief perpetrator of the violence, the repressive apparatus and core of the state -- its bodies of armed men. 'Gun control' is a dangerous delusion and is always directed at the oppressed, never the defenders of the ruling order.

Correct.

"first drive the cops out of their sties by mass action, then raid their armouries to help arm and form neighbourhood and workers militias."

That worked (to some degree) in the communes in Europe in the 1800's. Not sure it would work today. The central government here wouldn't hesitate to bomb the workers from the air, or bring in the US Army (as others have noted above.) Of course, that could escalate to guerrilla war - but there's a good chance that would be limited to whatever city it started in. Spreading it to other cities reduces to the problem below - organization and the threat of infiltration.

"These militias must be drilled in the use of firearms and in military tactics."

Correct. But that must be done in advance. The problem there is that most "militia" groups - and groups that simply train preppers in military tactics - are undoubtedly under heavy surveillance by the FBI and Secret Service.

What worked in the 1800's won't work now. More imaginative methods which rely on small "affinity groups" - where everyone is known and trusted - might work better. Frankly, I prefer the "multiple lone wolves supported by outside groups." Live off your enemies. "Gray Man theory." Stuff like that.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 5:03 utc | 170

Posted by: juliania | May 31 2020 4:34 utc | 164 Professor Hudson lays out how ruthless a debt economy really is.

Everyone knows that (or should). It doesn't address my point that these things have a much deeper source, and just changing the outward forms of things will never produce a solution (although it might provide sufficient reforms to at least delay the cliff a few more decades.)

"Christianity is always judged on the Roman or Western empirical model, when eastern Christianity (with a small "e") aligns much more closely with the other major religions of the world"

I'm aware (if not in detail) of the variances in Christianity. Nonetheless, never discuss that with me - I am a rabid atheist and it won't end well. Christianity was invented by a Roman double agent who was disowned by Jesus' own brother (assuming Jesus actually existed, which is still a matter of debate.) Then there are issues with the Gnostics view of things. And of course, there is the basic issue that it can be demonstrated that there is no God as a practical matter since we know where these belief systems come from, the psychology behind them, the history of them, and every single argument for them has been debunked umpteen times.

As I said, we have to agree to disagree on that one.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 5:10 utc | 171

@168 a user... yeah, the thought crossed my mind part way thru... i got sucked in... thanks for the reminder..

Posted by: james | May 31 2020 5:15 utc | 172

Posted by: lizard | May 31 2020 4:49 utc | 166 I mentioned a book I'm reading that I will reference again: Dark Star Rising: Magick and Power in the Age of Trump, by Gary Lachman.

I have that book on my hard drive in the "Conspiracies" section. Haven't read it yet.

I'm moderately familiar (I have tons of texts, most not read yet or probably ever will be) with occult stuff and occult-related conspiracy theories, such as Peter Levenda's "Sinister Forces" trilogy, which I also have (and have read.) As an aside, you might be surprised at the stuff I have an interest (if not a belief) in.

We *really* don't want to go down those rabbit holes here! LOL

Besides the fact that I don't as yet subscribe to the implications suggested in such works. However, I am familiar with National Socialism's connections to occult matters, as well as the progression of that association to right-wing groups in the US, so anything is possible, both on the lower levels and even in the higher echelons of the elites.

But while such theories are interesting, they are by no means proven (again, except in perhaps certain cases.)

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 5:21 utc | 173

The problem is ... well, it is a Systemic problem, which is to say it is a problem of the whole system, and involves a whole complex of problems, not just Police violence or financial inequality.
The mob looting the high-fashion shops have no well-thought out idea about what they are trying to do.

But they feel the system is unfair, and despite all the propaganda to the contrary, it will remain unfair. So they have no allegiance to the current system, and would happily destroy it. They don't know what should replace it, but it must be better than what we have now.

It is a feature of the current system in the US that the Police are brutal and racist, so naturally the mob hates them. The Police say everyone is entitled to protest peacefully, but those of you who have gone on peaceful protests know this isn't true. They just prefer to arrest protesters who are not violent.

If the Courts acquitted everyone unless the Police could PROVE they, as individuals, were violent, then more people might protest and more notice of peaceful protests might be taken, but they do not. The Courts automatically assume the Police are fine, upstanding members of society, and would never lie or make false accusations.

Governments praise the heroism of the Police, and give them medals. They visit them in hospital if they are injured, and shake their hands in front of the cameras. If the Courts say you are guilty, which could be on the word of one Policeman, then the Prison system will lock you up automatically.

This system in the US of Government, Police, Courts, Prisons, is sick. Terminally sick, and needs to be torn down. Those doing the tearing down won't have the least idea of what is coming next, but they don't want more of the same.

Posted by: Palloy | May 31 2020 5:28 utc | 174

"but "why" is the USA in a so fragile state - to the point a single police officer killing a random man in the street being enough of a trigger to plunge it into a significant chaos."

Posted by: vk | May 31 2020 1:07 utc | 115

.....

VK- did you miss that little event called 9/11?
Did you miss the 2008 heist as well?
Did you not catch the Bush/Cheney rape and torture show? Man that was a hoot.

Well then you must have seen the HopeyChange Obamma/Biden series?
...what a blast that was !
But don't worry if ya did miss those Great Americans at the helm- Biden's coming back around to save us all from the ORANGE BLOB monster. WooHoo ! Ameerica the indispensable Nay-shun is on a roll with MAGA fuckface all greaterer and betterer
than its ever been, yet.

Seriously man, you need some better weed to be asking that shit !

Posted by: CitizenX | May 31 2020 5:46 utc | 175

Reply to Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 5:03 utc | 170: One cannot neglect the growth and role of red militias in the Russian revolution. Of course the centralised armed fist of the state will be used to try and suppress any popular militias, and for that reason they must be linked to the workers movement that can also shut down production, transportation and communication pronto. Imagine how long Ford or GM would remain open if the cops shot up a UAW-organised defence squad.

I also stated that the formation of militias is the start, not the end of a process toward the taking of power, which crucially requires a revolutionary party of the Bolshevik type. But if the determination of organised workers and their militias is demonstrated, remains steadfast and has broad support, then sections of the largely economic conscript military, with a high proportion of blacks, will also begin to split and come over to the side of the insurgents. When that happens, a revolutionary situation is on the agenda. The incident with USS Roosevelt, where a mutiny was very palpable if Trump's undersecretary for defence weren't sacked for condemning Crozier, shows the fragility of the US military in these times, and shows that such is not an impossibility. It's one thing to be shooting foreigners in foreign lands for imperial aims, but another to be shooting one's own defending murderous cops. Like in the Russian revolution, the military won't engage in killing it's own people indefinitely -- unlike the cops.

In the next immediate period we may well see protest organisers begin to organise defence guards to defend demonstrations and weed out the cop agents provocateur. Such defence guards initially would be unarmed, or armed only with baseball bats and the like, but they can still be trained in basic militia and defence tactics. It's not a huge process to then train such squads in the use of weapons when their use becomes necessary and when they come to hand. After all, thankfully, a large proportion of Americans are already familiar with the use of firearms and these aren't far out of reach either. But defence squads must be linked to the social power of the workers to shut down production when needed to make the rulers suffer where it counts, in their hip pockets.

Posted by: Stephen Morrell | May 31 2020 5:55 utc | 176

Where were these rioters last weekend, and other weekends before that, when 50 people were shot and 10 died in the black areas of Chicago where black on black murder and crime are rampant? Baltimore too. Why is it that areas of high black crime never see a black leader or Black Lives Matter show up and exhort their people to quit killing each other. Where innocent residents pleas for help fall on deaf ears. Where local leaders beg for whitey to fix the problems they have caused. BLM and the black leadership only show their faces and preach white hate in safe mostly white controlled areas. Since most people here can't comprehend it here it is. As has been their history it's blacks exploiting their fellow blacks. Claiming racism whenever questions are asked to deflect from their dirty deeds and if caught blame it whitey. Like the riots where they don't condemn but blame it whites or Trump. Teaching their kids to look at everything through the prism of race so that every slight, like a rude clerk, is because of racism so these kids grow to be militant rabble rousers. Blacks such as Charles Barkeley and Bill Cosby have said and given proof that most problems blacks have are their own doing are called Uncle Toms and sellouts thus discouraging other blacks from speaking out.

A few weeks ago an on the job Walmart employee was EXECUTED, yes executed, by 2 black men. Around the same time other innocent white people were executed by black men. Barely made the news and quickly buried. Where is justice for them? No black leaders to condemn the killing. No BLM marching. Your warped propagandized minds say they were white people so who cares. After all one way to get shouted down and called a racist is to say all lives matter. What would your attitude be if it was a close family member or child? Would you say they were expendable because they weren't black? Or what if it was you?

As far as the videos it was by far black people doing the stealing, burning, and rioting. Professional troublemakers know how to do their thing and not get caught so using arrest records is not a good way to determine who was involved.

Posted by: snedly arkus | May 31 2020 5:57 utc | 177

Minneapolis St Paul slowed at midnight. curfew was at 8pm-6am

==Officials used the "outside agitator" propaganda blamed white supremacist/anarchist/drug looter arson gangs to get control of the news narrative and that worked, people went off the street mostly by 10pm

== KSTP 5 reported "Outside agitator" numbers of 50 arrested Friday were 6-7 from outside Minnesota.
Corporate media kept up the steady drumbeat of outside agitators.
MN Commish Dept of Corrections claimed to have more arrests Saturday, some cars abandoned with riot "tools".

Key tactic was to double or more military/paramilitary forces:
==Nat Guard deployed claimed 1700, then claimed 13,000 available (most are fighting in mid east, training out of state, or prepping to hold down Latin America. My guess is they took the whole hollowed out Guard left, 1700, plus paramilitary of city cops, suburban cops, county sheriffs, state police. All total maybe 3000, many vehicles several helicopters, Drone from Canada border. Forces outnumbered protesters by 1000-2000 by 10pm

--Just a few caravans of 6-7 cars looking for looting targets after midnight. Maybe they will try targets in suburbs where mobility is better.Most live feeds gone at midnight no foot/bike protester masses left.

Cutting mobility was a key tactic:
--All freeways inside the belt line closed 7pm.

--Some Mississippi River bridges between St Paul/Minneapolis blocked after 8pm but in time to stop protesters moving intercity, effectively dividing protest groups keeping massing very small after 8pm. Still left some bridges open,must be short of paramilitary people to blockade traffic. Did not use truck trailers to set up blockade of bridges so it took a lot of paras and cruisers.
They never looked at the failed Sir Richard Branson Venezuela invasion tapes to figure out a couple semi trailers would be more effective at blocking bridges.

--By 10pm most protesters were chased from main commercial streets some 15-20 tried to block a more residential street to start a street fire and were opposed by several residents(maybe armed) who fire extinguished the blockade. This protester group figured out it was a stupid idea and dispersed.

--Some main commercial streets had roadblocks to stop mobility.

Nobody killed today.

Posted by: joe six pack | May 31 2020 6:11 utc | 178

Situation in San Francisco right now...

George Floyd protests live updates: SF announces curfew until 5 a.m., Mayor London Breed says National Guard is on standby amid mounting violence

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 6:11 utc | 179

Remember the recent protests of the lockdowns? No rioting or destruction with the participants being mainly white. Decent people labeled white supremacists and Neo Nazi's. Then we get to the current carnage and the media covers it as a protest by sweet innocent people only looking for a fair shake which is all lies. Perfect example of the media bias that has been going on the US for decades. With Trump in White House that bias has been supercharged. Most of Trumps supposed lies, which you haters so desperately want to believe, were not lies at all but spun as lies for the ignorant haters to favor deposing Trump by any means possible. Look at the medias history of lies from the Iraq war to Libya and years of Russiagate lies and yet you still believe their spiel as gospel. Even after Muellers investigation came up empty and his appearance before Congress was a total disaster it was spun by the media into Trump was guilty. A many years long investigation by a cade if Hillary loving Trump hating lawyers finding nothing and the mainstream media spinning the opposite.

Posted by: snedly arkus | May 31 2020 6:18 utc | 180

Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 6:11 utc | 179:

LOL @ first photo of Homeland Security guard. All dressed up but missing something critical should it hit the fan for him.

Posted by: Ian2 | May 31 2020 6:22 utc | 181

Posted by: Stephen Morrell | May 31 2020 5:55 utc | 176 Reply to Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 5:03 utc | 170: One cannot neglect the growth and role of red militias in the Russian revolution.

Yeah, I can. Russia in the early 1900's is not the US now.

"Imagine how long Ford or GM would remain open if the cops shot up a UAW-organised defence squad."

Do you recall the union busting of the 1800's? Do you think the corporate state won't repeat those moves? I'm not saying that wouldn't escalate into an even worse situation - anything is possible - but I don't see everyone at factories today running home to get a gun and join a "defense squad."

"I also stated that the formation of militias is the start, not the end of a process toward the taking of power, which crucially requires a revolutionary party of the Bolshevik type."

Dude, you are living in the wrong era. You clearly have a limited view of how revolutions start - and more importantly, how they fail. You sound like you're reading out of some leftist manual from the 1930's. Let me guess - you were a member of the American Communist Party? Still am? Ah, wait, just noticed you spent "defence" in the British spelling. That explains it - you're British, right? Former King Mob or Up-Against-The-Wall-Motherfuckers member (I have a book on the latter in my "Rebellion", or maybe the Anarchism section, of my hard drive)?

Are you familiar with the Situationist International group of the 1950's and '60's? Read up on them. They superceded that stuff sixty years ago. They advised the 1968 Paris uprisings and predicted how those uprising would fail - and those uprising were *way* ahead of today's.

You are *really* underestimating what needs to be done and what is likely to be able to be done, is all I'm saying.

I'd love to see something like that happen, but I'm not expecting it.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 6:23 utc | 182

So someone shot a Federal security guard here in San Francisco, according to that article I posted. Nice work, folks! Keep up the good work! LOL

Been hearing sirens all night. I'm about four blocks away from Market and 8th, and about five blocks the other way to Market (market runs diagonally) where the Westfield mall has looters around it (most of that has been boarded up since the lockdown.) Observation helicopters overhead all day long - constant helicopter noise reminds me of Vietnam. Walgreens drug stores on Market had windows smashed (don't know which ones, there are at least two or three.)

This is not good. Target is closing its stores in Minnesota. They are also closing stores elsewhere. They are both stores in San Francisco, including the Metreon central store, which is really important to me since that's where I buy my ground beef and other supplies. So now I'm fucked until this blows over (if it does.) Or my diet will have to change, or I'm going to have to go back to the FoodsCo store (which is a virus death trap.) I'm on a ground beef diet because I'm on a keto diet. Target is the cheapest store for ground beef in town, except for 80/20 at FoodsCo (I prefer 90 0r 93% lean.)

I find this interesting. Target is a big chain store. Suddenly they decide, after two days of rioting, to close *all* their stores? After they just went through two months of limited access and reduced sales for the lockdown? Who's paying for *that* little maneuver? I don't want to sound paranoid (at least, no more than I usually do), but is this some sort of plan to not only put people in lockdown for the virus, but *also* cut off our food supplies using the riots as an excuse?

If that sort of thing spreads, shit really will hit the fan. People aren't going to starve indoors under martial law.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 6:44 utc | 183

Addendum: I'm not too worried about running out of food. A few weeks ago, looking at the predicted food shortages, I ordered about two weeks of food (not the stuff I eat today, but the stuff I was eating before the keto diet) from Walmart using the extra food stamps they gave us in March and April (or the cash equivalent out of the stimulus check.) I'm planning on doing that again in a month or so to boost the stores to a month's supply. Maybe I should do it in June.

Now I'm wondering if Walmart or any store will stay functioning long enough to be able to do it again.

Perhaps what we're seeing is corporate America deciding to strangle the population of food and supplies until we all bow down again and stop the riots. If so, I think they haven't seen anything yet with regard to looting.

Here's a prepper tip. Don't loot your local grocery store - they're probably already cleaned out. Find where the distribution warehouses are in your area and loot those.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 6:52 utc | 184

Lozion #136

@113 UT. Correction: "The 'KKK' has gone full counter revolutionary and repressive.

Thank you, that's much better. I imagine they are up to their neck in the game here.

Earlier a new poster asked karlof1 for a better example of treatment of blacks. Cuba or Haiti under Aristide. Maybe Venezuela in recent decades.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 31 2020 6:59 utc | 185

CitizenX #175

to vk

Seriously man, you need some better weed to be asking that shit !

Maybe he is vaping ayahuasca.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 31 2020 7:07 utc | 186

Late last year I said that by end of 2020 the USA will be a military dictatorship. After or while some sort of civil war 2.0
Looks like I'm right.
If you can get out, it's probably now that you should.
My scenario was:
1. Massive civil unrest that civil (although already pretty much militarized) forces can't or pretend not to be able to control
2. The army or branches thereof hail to the "rescue "
3. The president falls and the vice president is declared unfit for duty
4. A general offers his "help" to restore law and order
5. All civil rights are "temporarily" suspended until this goal is achieved
6. Unrest, partly directly fomented by and with direct participation of some "special black troop" (black as in dark not as in Afro-American) doesn't stop anytime soon.
7. Some massive domestic attacks on critical infrastructure take place (maybe a dam or a reactor)
8. The generals officially declares martial law and the suspension of any other rights not yet suspended in number 5
9. The internet and free communication is shut down for 98% of the population
10. Some states/counties revolt and want to secede.
11. They are brutally crushed using all available means (incl airstrikes with drones and other aircraft). This is so overproportionate as to scare any other to even dare thinking about trying the same.
12. The unrest slowly recedes, while extremely tough and "flexible" domestic anti terror legislation is decreed. (To e.g. include the mere voicing of concern, nevermind the attempt to demonstrate)
13. Those people who were in early are rewarded with government and economical roles of power and the new "normal" takes shape.
14. A new congress is elected. Staffed with pre-approved candidates. Some of them with some sort of "opposition " roles
15. The general in charge gets "elected " during some sort of political campaign (this could also be skipped)
16. Welcome to the new and brave USA.

I could also come up with a slightly modified version of it by replacing "generals" with "Emperor Donald". It would be insofar different as the military leadership role I have in my scenario would be replaced with a "president " that literally and figuratively fucks the institutions....
Results are the same though, just different hats...

Posted by: Fabtour | May 31 2020 7:09 utc | 187

Fabtour | May 31 2020 7:09 utc | 187:

There's not enough manpower to enforce a nation-wide Martial Law.

Posted by: Ian2 | May 31 2020 7:26 utc | 188

You're right. That is why I have point 10 and 11

Posted by: Fabtour | May 31 2020 7:32 utc | 189

Every NATO country has its secret armies of military-trained civilians that fulfill tasks to promote this New World Order agenda.There must be thousands of them in every NATO-country.Read Daniele Ganser.Agent provocateurs are part of it.

Posted by: willie | May 31 2020 7:39 utc | 190

@willie: that's my point 6

Posted by: Fabtour | May 31 2020 7:45 utc | 191

Fabtour | May 31 2020 7:32 utc | 189:

I disagree with Point 11. Majority of the military / LEO are on the civilian side. Yes, one could point out past behavior of the US military towards civilians. BUT, once the situation gets out of hand, we're going to see mass defections. If these idiots think they can brutally crush Americans, then they're in for a rude awakening.

Posted by: Ian2 | May 31 2020 7:48 utc | 192

Posted by: bevin | May 30 2020 21:10 utc | 41
"The United States no longer works."

In fact, the United States is working quite well for those that it is currently intended to work for. Indeed, it has never worked better. That is why these protests and riots are so futile. They are directed at the wrong enemy.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | May 31 2020 7:49 utc | 193

Posted by: Fabtour | May 31 2020 7:09 utc | 187

Not an unreasonable scenario.

I agree that number 3 could just be replaced by "Trump agrees to it all" - I don't see him needing to fall. His narcissistic nature might make him rebel against being given orders by the Deep State and the Pentagon, but as long as he keeps his money, he probably will bend over whether he likes it or not. They could also tell him his family is toast unless he agrees. That has the advantage of keeping a lot of his supporters on board, since most of them are right-wing to begin with. Some of them will disown him, but a lot of them won't since they've conditioned themselves to believe he is a "great" President (something I call Trump Savior Syndrome as opposed to Trump Derangement Syndrome among Democrats.)

My only interest is in what do *I* do under those circumstances. It boils down to...pretty much what I intend to do, anyway. Ain't no one gonna like it, either - not that I give a shit. At my age, if I get caught and executed, well, as long as I take down a few before I die, I win. But as Malcolm Reynolds said, "'course that ain't exactly Plan A..."

Other related quotes from the great Mal:

Capt. Malcolm "Mal" Reynolds: I mean to confound these bungers.
Capt. Malcolm "Mal" Reynolds: I aim to misbehave...

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 7:50 utc | 194

"What you don’t seem to know is that no nation in history has done as much to promote racial harmony as the United States has done. regarding restitution, what do you think white people have been doing since 1865? How many trillions have gone to Medicaid, food stamps, outright cash payments, and free legal representation for criminals?

I am curious about your point about enriching African Americans. What on earth do you think white Americans have been doing, particularly in the past fifty years?

About restitution - do you think I want to give even more of my tax money to these people? After Medicaid, food stamps, affirmative action in the universities and workplaces, free legal representation and so much more. C’mon...

Please remember Holy Jesus’ words, “The poor will always be with you.”
And please, research the amounts of money that the dominant culture has given to the minority since 1965. And how little it has benefited anyone...

I have probably done more in my life to help minorities than anyone else here on b’s comments page, perhaps more than all of us bar flies combined. My career was that of an educator in minority areas. And to a certain extent, my job was to promote brown people... to jobs and to higher academic positions.

care to point out a system that works better than ours?
Got any examples of countries treating blacks better than the United States?
Let’s hear about your undescribed unicorns, friend."

Posted by: Robert | May 31 2020 0:38 utc | 103

Hi Robert, or can I call you Bob?
Oh heck how about Bobert?

So Bobert, if you're still in the N.West I'd be happy to show you a special place where you can see real NW Unicorns. In fact, I can jam a Unicorn horn so far up your ass a flag will fly from your forehead. A beautiful Red White and Black one that says "I Love Brown People".

You sound and smell like a racist troll from miles away. Fuck you and your arrogant scum hypocritical ideology.

Posted by: CitizenX | May 31 2020 7:55 utc | 195

SF Update:

11:03 p.m. ‘Multiple fires,’ public safety officers injured in S.F.: San Francisco Fire Chief Jeanine Nicholson said the department has “responded to victims of violence, (and) we’ve had other public safety officers injured tonight, multiple fires.” Police Chief Bill Scott said that after nightfall, police “start(ed) to see increased level of violence, we started to see criminal activity, we started to see vandalism. We started to see vandalism on our police cars, we started to see assaults on our police officers. We cannot and we will not tolerate that.” [MY NOTE: FUCK THE COPS AND THEIR CARS.]

11:49 p.m. Market Street in SF largely clear: The Market Street crowds have largely dispersed, but a line of broken glass, graffiti and looting was left in their path. One man had kicked in the glass window of an Old Navy on Market Street, while several people jumped in and out of the broken window of a CVS grabbing baskets full of goods. At one point, however, a line of officers blocked people from going past 6th Street. Read the full story here.

11:30 p.m. Protesters gather at S.F. mayor's house: A group of protesters shouted and set off fireworks in front of Mayor London Breed's home Saturday, chanting "Let him breathe."

11:20 p.m. Breed says curfew to take effect Sunday night: San Francisco’s curfew will take effect Sunday night, from 8 p.m. to 5 a.m.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 7:55 utc | 196

@Ian2: Every military hails from the civilian as they obviously have relatives and friends in the civilian population. But that was true in Argentina, Brazil, Chile, even in France during the failed generals grab for power in 1961 (Algeria) to just name a few examples. Militaries that have a blind obedience culture will still participate. Besides, using any type of aircraft, manned or remote, avoids to "look into the eyes" of the victim. You just follow orders. You can bet that a soldier that lived in let's randomly say, Minneapolis, will not be tasked with bombing this city, but will be deployed in e.g. Tampa...

Posted by: Fabtour | May 31 2020 8:00 utc | 197

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 31 2020 7:55 utc | 197

One man had kicked in the glass window of an Old Navy on Market Street, while several people jumped in and out of the broken window of a CVS grabbing baskets full of goods. The USAian concept of redistribution of the wealth.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | May 31 2020 8:03 utc | 198

@Richard Steven Hack: I fully agree. As I am no prophet there is no way my scenario will play by the letter and point-by-point. It's a simply hypothetical scenario where some points may happen like this in that order, others may not, not in that order or totally different. Although I believe the general direction of my thoughts should be clear to the interested readers.
And just because you feel old, doesn't mean you need to be :-) it's a mentality thing (LOL)

Posted by: Fabtour | May 31 2020 8:05 utc | 199

Perimetr #145

Jesse Ventura is playing reluctant bride over the question of a presidential run. Meanwhile hundreds of people are pushing to draft him to run. Whether he ends up running is anyone's guess right now afaik.

The Greens my not be the platform for Jesse to run on in my opinion; an independent gig might be more convincing and sane. Time will tell.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 31 2020 8:06 utc | 200

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