Tapes Prove Biden's Intervention In Ukraine But Not His Motive
A few days ago Andrii Derkach, a longtime member of the Ukrainian parliament, held a press conference (vid) during which he published recordings of phone calls between then Vice President Joe Biden, then Secretary of State John Kerry and then President of the Ukraine Petro Poroshenko.
Unfortunately there is no big scoop in the published material:
They discussed, particularly, the resignation of Prosecutor-General Viktor Shokin. It was the issue of the recording of the talk of Poroshenko and Kerry dated December 3, 2015.“Would like to urge to consider the possibility of solving the problem of replacing Prosecutor General Shokin because, to my opinion, he blocked the reform of clearance of Prosecutor General’s Office,” Kerry said.
Besides, he referred to the ‘concern’ of Vice President Joe Biden.
Then, the recording of the talk of Biden and Poroshenko on March 22, 2016, was played. It took place four days before Shokin’s dismissal in the parliament.
“In case that you have a new government and a new prosecutor general, I am prepared to do a public signing of the commitments on 1 billion dollars,” Biden said.
“Extremely strong motivation. One of the possible candidates for this position is the leader of my faction Lutsenko,” Poroshenko responded. “If you think that a politically motivated figure could be not very good, from your point of view, I recall this proposal. Cause nobody knows that I am going to propose Lutsenko,” the president explained.
The Ukrainian gas company Burisma, which paid Joe Biden's son Hunter absurd sums for little work, is not mentioned in the now published calls.
Biden did intervene in the Ukraine to get then Prosecutor General Viktor Shokin fired soon after the prosecutor office had confiscated the villas of Burisma owner Mykola Zlochevsky. Biden himself had admitted that he held back a $1 billion credit line for the Ukraine to remove Shokin but claimed that the move had nothing to do with his son's benefactor.
The timeline of Biden's intervention looks awfully suspicious and there is no evidence that Shokin was, as Biden claimed, corrupt.
But the now published calls only confirm Biden's version of the story. They will not harm him. For now it is only Poroshenko who will have additional trouble from them:
"Petro Oleksiyovych confesses to Biden that he raised tariffs for ordinary Ukrainians, attention, not by 75% as requested by the IMF, but by as much as 100%." "Already raised the tariffs by 100%, give me my yard, please." For the sake of a billion for himself, Poroshenko is ready to strip the Ukrainians naked and also make money on tariffs. By the way, tariffs really doubled," Derkach said.
The recordings and other material have been handed to U.S. and Ukranian officials:
All the many-hour records available today, along with a statement on treason and facts of international corruption, were handed over to the Prosecutor General's Office. All the files were also sent to US government agencies for use and decision making within their competence.
Derkach has previously worked with Trump's lawyer Rudi Giuliani to find dirt about Biden's activities in the Ukraine.
But why were these tapes published now and why only a few snippets from "all the many-hour records"? The timing is not right to use these tapes as an element in Trump's campaign. The content of the published calls is not damaging enough to Biden.
That lets me assume that there is an additional game going on behind this move.
Andrii Derkach, the member of the Ukrainian parliament, is seen as friendly with Russia. He claimed that the recordings of the calls were made by Poroshenko himself. He did not explain how he received them. Derkach's father is a former head the Security Service of Ukraine and that services, or some other one, may have had a hand in this.
Are there more such tapes? Could they be used as a threat against Biden or to make a deal with Trump?
My hunch is that this is not the last time we will hear of them.
Posted by b on May 21, 2020 at 15:55 UTC | Permalink
Thanks B., i could not make sense of this move, and your analysis surely sounds convincing.
But with Lybia now on a turning point into Turkish Jihadi occupation, i hope you could make one of your amazing SITREPs on the mess there if time allows.. It surely has huge implications for the middle east, Europe and Geopolitics as a whole. And not good ones, i fear.
Posted by: DontBelieveEitherPr. | May 21 2020 16:08 utc | 2
I would suspect that the government in Kiev is trying to play kingmaker, leveraging the tapes to try to get a better deal from Trump or the Democrats. As the current holder of the Whitehouse, Trump is in a stronger position to make and follow through on his offers (although he also has a history of breaking promises). Conversely, the Democrats have every incentive to break the bank to keep those recordings secret. So I guess we'll have to wait and see who makes the Ukrainians a better offer. If Trump is going to give them a good offer it would need to be fairly soon (before Aug), so lets see if he announces new arms sales or additional IMF funding for the government in Kiev this summer. If he does, then more tapes will leak as we get closer to the election.
Posted by: Kadath | May 21 2020 16:31 utc | 3
As shown in this article, there is a key aspect to the entire anti-Russia/pro-Ukraine story that has received absolutely no coverage by the mainstream media:
https://viableopposition.blogspot.com/2019/11/a-divided-ukraine-story-that-west.html
Posted by: Sally Snyder | May 21 2020 16:47 utc | 4
Presumably Biden was still coherent when talking with Poroshenko?
Of course, Biden can’t openly talk about the US’ real interest in Burisma: hegemony via control of energy resources and the Crown Jewels of the Ukrainian economy...nor can he talk about any personal stake he had in the deal.
I remember when Chavez took over PDVSA, Venezuelans claim to have learned that the Venezuelan oil company’s technology subsidiary’s board of directors had been infested with top CIA. You have to assume that they were not serving pro bono... Nor was Hunter Biden...
Posted by: JohnH | May 21 2020 16:47 utc | 5
Joe Biden suffers from rapidly advancing dementia and it would have to be some kind of miracle that he makes it to the "convention." Meanwhile, everybody is doing an Annie Hall "la di da..." as if we're not supposed to notice this severely ill person being presented by 1 of the 2 US political parties as their presidential candidate running against the devil himself, Donald Trump. Whatever his role in Ukraine, Biden's candidacy is reckless and shows the Dims don't really want to win in November.
Posted by: Joanne Murray | May 21 2020 17:24 utc | 6
With the "noise" from COVID-19 still very loud, this was the wrong time to leak them. Are there more? Yes, most likely; but I suspect Trump has plenty of skeletons that could be brought forth and rattled when the time arrives for that in September since the Duopoly's Conventions are scheduled for August.
Posted by: karlof1 | May 21 2020 17:42 utc | 7
Dunno how much traction this story is going to get now, but yes, it's likely to come back in the future.
Re: it confirming Biden's own verbal account ... With a tape, it would make it hard for his campaign to claim that he remembered wrong / was exaggerating / etc.
On the US political side.. I think it would maybe be meant to demoralize swing state celebrities who are deciding whether to vocally support Biden. (thinking of ones with a Joe Rogan type audience)
With female celebrities especially, they are already being asked risk undercutting an important source of their political capital - if the Tara Reid scandal or others like it develop further. The Hunter Biden / Burisma story just adds to the doubt.
As usual I expect no effect on committed Rep and Dem voters and would look at only the independents. I'm thinking the financial consequences of the virus, for middle income individuals in swing states, will matter more.
Posted by: ptb | May 21 2020 17:43 utc | 8
However this evolves in the campaign, the facts are piled a mile high that the Dems, Clinton, the Obama admin, and the Bidens were pigging out on money in Kiev sent by the US, IMF and World Bank ostensibly to assist the Ukraine people.
Everything in Russiagate and Ukraingate and Obamagate and Bidengate is about corruption and billions of dollars gone to the Dems one way or another.
Posted by: Red Ryder | May 21 2020 17:45 utc | 9
Possibly connected with the forthcoming show trial in Holland about MH17. ( John Helmer has been doing some fantastic work recently.) In 2014 NATO Agitprop wound up a number of its clockwork mice, who still keep scuttling forward, even though the situation nowadays is very different.
On the subject of Ukraine, didn’t VVP tell the Yanks: “If you want to dance with the lady, you will have to buy her dinner first”? It was seven years ago, so I may have misquoted.
Posted by: Montreal | May 21 2020 17:54 utc | 10
Posted by: Montreal | May 21 2020 17:54 utc | 10
Possibly connected with the forthcoming show trial in Holland about MH17.
Like how? Biden blackmailing Poroshenko based on Americans knowing that Ukrainians shot down MH17?
If that was on tape, it would make the prosecutor stuff trivial.
Posted by: Petri Krohn | May 21 2020 18:19 utc | 11
Most big scoops are invented the same way that Congress declares war by passing a resolution approving of it.
Posted by: Vonu | May 21 2020 18:51 utc | 12
The per capita GDP of Ukraine dropped more than half with the 2014 coup. "Traditionally" corruption takes most of Ukraine's money, recently by Americans and Ukraine Americans. Well chronologized at ukrainegate.info. Biden and his family are corrupt, but it's ok because he's Establishment and it's "soft corruption."
Posted by: michael888 | May 21 2020 19:00 utc | 13
Andrii Derkach is a member of the Party of Regions. Recall, this is the party that appealed to those Ukrainian voters whose first language was Russian. If I recall correctly that represents about one half of the Ukrainian electorate; given that the Donbass region has susceeded it might be be much less today.
In any case, this revelation of corruption between Bindan and Poroshenko, the revelation probably is more significant within Ukrainian politics, not US politics. Anyone paying attention inside the US already knows how corrupt Joe and Hunter are when it comes to Ukraine. I suspect Derkach right now is playing to his Ukrainian constituency.
Posted by: ToivoS | May 21 2020 19:31 utc | 14
This looks like mere imperial chamber politics. Typical "Third World country gets dragged into the vortex of the Empire's civil war" stuff.
I don't expect anything grandiose to come out of this. Maybe some important Ukrainian politicians and high officers are murdered/removed, but nothing beyond that.
Ukraine will serve as a test tube to observe the USA's capacity to reach far beyond its geographical borders. China and Russia are probably very curious to see what the American will make out of the Ukrainians.
While Viktor Shokin is alive and accessible to US and/or Ukrainian prosecutors, Biden & Kerry are one step away from being in deep doo-doo. Imo, it's not necessary to prove motive in a corruption case. They're discussing a $1Billion transaction in the context of an outcome stipulated by the agent(s) authorising the transfer of the money from USG to someone in Ukraine - the compliant, and complicit, beneficiary.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | May 21 2020 19:49 utc | 16
What the tapes PROVE is that there was meddling by the U.$. in the Ukrainian government, and that favours were given in return for the removal, and reordering of significant aspects of the Ukrainian Judicial office.
The fact that there is audio proof, and that Biden was filmed ON RECORD boasting about him 'meddling' and 'getting rid' of key players in a prosecution case being built against his son, is proof enough of gross 'over step' of the bounds of his office.
Why would BIDEN do this? Why would BIDEN stick his neck out 'so much' over ONE PERSON? Follow the Money. It's the first rule of investigation: Follow the Money. If MONEY is found to be a significant factor in the removal Shonkin then we have concrete evidence of corruption. But who is the person who 'stood to gain the most' (relatively) from the arrangement between Biden and Porshenko?
Whom had influence over whom? Who stood to 'lose more' should Shonkin continue his investigation? When we answer that, we will have the answer to 'Follow the Money'...
Posted by: Trauma2000 | May 21 2020 19:56 utc | 17
For an extended look into Joe Biden's activities in Ukraine with respect to getting Shokin fired and why, it could be a good idea to check out the 2 Part documentary on Ukrainegate by independent French investigative analysts from “Les Crises” – founded by Olivier Berruyer -- https://www.les-crises.fr/
For the English version, see Consortium News: https://consortiumnews.com/2020/01/13/new-documentary-sheds-light-on-ukrainegate/ and https://consortiumnews.com/2020/01/20/part-two-of-ukrainegate-inconvenient-facts/
The series does effectively show, interviewing UKR officials and others that Biden got his son Hunter hired by Burisma energy in Ukraine -- owned by the corrupt oligarch Zlochevsky -- then threatened to withhold a $Billion in U.S. aid until the Prosecutor General Shokin (actively persuing an investigation against Burisma) was fired by Poroshenko and replaced with a "do nothing" known to be corrupt prosecutor willing to do "America's" bidding, etc.
Posted by: Richard Gabrio | May 21 2020 20:00 utc | 18
At the Derkach's press conference, in addition to the tape recording of Poroshenko-Biden conversations, there was also something else, which unfortunately, attracted no attention. Konstantin Kulik, a former Chief Prosecutor in charge of the investigation into corruption by the former President Victor Yanukovich, made a statement, unfortunately in very poor Ukrainian.
The statement detailed how the Americans, Biden, the Ambassador Yovanovich, U.S. charge d’Affaires in Ukraine George Kent, and FBI Special Representative for Eastern Europe Karen Greenway blocked that investigation thereby preventing the return of the money to Ukraine. Here is an English summery of the statement, the only one I found: https://creativedestructionmedia.com/investigations/2020/05/19/former-ambassador-yovanovichs-big-role-in-thwarting-ukraine-investigation-into-hunter-biden/
Kulik didn't say that but seems reasonable to suppose these people simply got a cut of the money stolen. The trail also goes all the way to the leadership of the Democratic party. If played right, this could be quite damaging. Unless, of course, the American voters don't care about the money stolen by the Americans from the people of Ukraine, which is also a possibility.
Posted by: Eugenia | May 21 2020 20:06 utc | 19
If the recordings had been made by Porky Pig himself, he may have done them with a view to their potential for blackmailing Joe Biden and/or the Democrats, to remind them perhaps that they might owe him or his old cronies from his administration (2014 - 2019) some favours. Perhaps the Democrats failed to intervene in the presidential elections that brought the TV comedian Zelensky to power.
The Crimea Bridge is still standing despite US media moron Tom Rogan having openly called for it to be bombed as soon as it opened (2018, I think) and maybe he or one of his fellow media imbeciles is unhappy that Nordstream II is close to completion in spite of the impediments put in its way. (Denmark may be in for some punishment over Greenland for not doing enough to stop the gas pipeline project.)
It seems that the entire 2014 Maidan project has fallen completely apart and several of the rats that steered it and profited from it are now finding lean pickings from it and fighting over the scraps. Nothing is going the way the Gene Sharp template or formula or model "predicted" it would.
Posted by: Jen | May 21 2020 20:53 utc | 20
Posted by: ptb | May 21 2020 17:43 utc | 8 the Tara Reid scandal
A minor correction: It's Tara Reade, not Reid. Reid is an "actress" (albeit in my recollection a crappy one.)
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 21 2020 21:08 utc | 21
I wonder if any of this Biden Ukraine stuff is Trump's team setting up a scandal for the election which they can then back up by pointing out how the Dems had Ukrainian-American staffers like Alexandra Chalupa working with the Ukrainian Embassy to dig up dirt on Paul Manafort - and possible being involved in the fake DNC "hack". The latter, as we know, has fallen apart when Crowdstrike's testimony to Congress proves they had no evidence on Russians being involved with the Wikileaks emails.
In other words, the whole thing was the Dems using Ukrainians against Trump (and by extension, for the Ukrainians, Russia). In further words, that it was *Ukraine*, not Russia, that "meddled" in the 2016 election.
Posted by: Sally Snyder | May 21 2020 16:47 utc | 4 As shown in this article, there is a key aspect to the entire anti-Russia/pro-Ukraine story that has received absolutely no coverage by the mainstream media.
That is historically interesting, especially vis-a-vis Crimea. But the real story is the divide between right-wing Ukrainian nationalists in the West, many of whom supported the Nazis in WWII because they hated the Russians, and the ethnic Russian Ukrainians in the east. And those neo-Nazis never went away.
An example of George Eliason's work on them is here:
OpEdNews Op Eds 3/16/2014 at 16:26:27 H1'ed 3/16/14
The Nazis Even Hitler Was Afraid of
By George Eliason
https://tinyurl.com/yc2398xu
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 21 2020 21:23 utc | 22
@ Posted by: Jen | May 21 2020 20:53 utc | 19
Yeah, looks like it. This is typical day-to-day American foreign policy to me: political family wants to achieve patrician status (in this case, the Bidens) by ransacking some God-forsaken place. The only curiosity in this case is that this operation resulted in the destruction of an entire sovereign nation (Ukraine). It's a pity, many Ukrainians must be upset by this - but when you align with the USA, you should know you're taking these kind of risks. It is how it is, buyer's beware and all that thing.
I understand Joe Biden. The Clintons got it. The Obamas got it. Nothing fairer than the Bidens getting it. Given the American imperial system, it was inevitable, and he found his jackpot in Ukraine. It could be anywhere else, the Ukraine was just at the wrong place, the wrong time.
Let's remember that the Democrat political families have a history of trying to consolidate their power by using Eastern Europe as a primitive accumulation ground. Victoria Nuland's family became extremely rich with the ransacking of Yugoslavia, her husband buying a lot of its previously State-owned infrastructure (telecommunications) after it was reduced in the wars of Bill Clinton. I'm sure other Democrat families became very rich with that enterprise, too.
What I don't understand fully was why did Germany support the dissolution of the Ukraine. My guess is that it was a mix of American pressure with a sense of opportunity. The German elite became fabulously rich with the EU's expansion to the East - including buying up almost 80% of the Slovakian previously State-owned infrastructure (i.e. privatization). Maybe they saw those fertile black soil from Western Ukraine and sensed another ground for the amplification of its already sky-high trade surpluses, all they while getting cheap and good quality food.
The Ukrainian people calculated badly the situation. They bet on a quick accession to the EU, so they could immigrate to the West - where wealth and good life are. In that sense, they fell for Mogherini's bait and switch. You have to give it to her: she played Yanukovich masterfully, checkmating him quickly and decisively. It's almost like she already had the entire plan prepared, probably by her predecessor...
Now, I think there are millions of western Ukrainians in some refugee camp in Poland. If that's true, then it explains why Poland is milking the EU political machine so easily: they are being bribed to keep those Ukrainians there.
Nothing on the tapes? How about where Porky admits there is no reason to fire Shokin but he's going to do it to please his friend Biden? He admits there is no corruption from Shokin, which is the point that Biden has (lying) always stressed.
Posted by: worldblee | May 21 2020 22:33 utc | 25
BTW on Russia... Look What's just coming out now.. Safe to say once sanctions on Iran are lifted (Nothing Uncle Shmuel can do about that despite protestations to the contrary, guess where some of these will be heading ...
Posted by: Maximus | May 21 2020 22:37 utc | 26
Trump Biden
Pepsi Pepsi Lite
Both capitalist, of limited intelligence.
Posted by: Duncan Idaho | May 21 2020 22:47 utc | 27
offtopic, covid/ wuhan mass testing
considering theyre planning to test or at least have frozen samples from millions of people in one place in a short span of time, you would think there is more reporting of this.
best i could do was this (qq.com). Machine translation is confusing and I don't speak Chinese.
First impression is the apparently large number of categories of cases / not cases. The circumstances under which asymptomatics are counted or not counted in Chinese statistics seem to be lost in translation here. I'll try to make sense of it later.
(search methodology: searched for "wuhan news", which according to Google is 武汉新闻 . dunno how good a search term that is but it's something.
Posted by: ptb | May 21 2020 23:26 utc | 28
b:
The timing is not right to use these tapes as an element in Trump's campaign. The content of the published calls is not damaging enough to Biden.
Nice clinical analysis but; Most USians are familiar with the greed and coercive nature of US politicians and most can add 2+2=? So what is Biden's future from all of this Ukraine carpetbaggery and sniffergate and Taragate and - you know the thing. The people will not come out to vote for this maggot.
Biden is a dead man mumbling his way to his political grave and with any luck he will take the remnants of democrazi believability with him. So who is next? What will these DNC morons find in their grab bag of empire hacks? A Cuomo? nah he is no Dixiecrat, Butergig possibly with equally stupid Stacy Abrams as VP. Warren is not worth two cents.
But back to Biden and Ukraine - he lied, he cheated and he stole. Simple as that and he left the Ukraian people to pay off the loans. Cretin!
Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 21 2020 23:59 utc | 29
Sally Snyder @4
Thank you for the link to Viable Opposition.
Great historical summary.
Posted by: ld | May 22 2020 0:51 utc | 30
context is everything.. i would have thought most people at moa new some or most of the backdrop in sallys link, but maybe not..i forget how many people live in the usa, lol.. thanks sally either way...
Posted by: james | May 22 2020 1:01 utc | 31
I didn't get news from it either. The presentation seems a bit too contrived, particularly when Pro claims there was no evidence of corruption. That's falling into the absurd category; I mean to say "who would say that?" since by admission the corruption exists on the part of those involved in forcing a resignation by quid pro quo. No matter the names of the players, the corruption is in evidence. I think the real choice becomes who can manage to cheat and win as opposed to cheat and still lose.
Also the idea that USian taxpayers should somehow be offended by it is sheer nonsense. More important to US taxpayers is how we're for the most part marginalized by the abundance of free money being slathered all over everything. Do we should we care? Donald Trump us already a lame duck. I assume he's already gotten what he set out to do done -- whatever that was.
Thank for putting it out here, b.
Posted by: Curmudgeon | May 22 2020 8:11 utc | 33
This is a dead horse, or maybe just minor road kill like a dead possum, just more of Trump vindictiveness designed to exonerate himself and distract attention. Trump will never get over the impeachment that nearly breached his defenses against reality. Ukraine is an irrelevant pre-covid issue in a post-covid environment. As usual, the lapdog press is ignoring important issues such as Mitch McConnell's obstruction of further economic relief for the masses.
Posted by: jadan | May 22 2020 12:10 utc | 34
Motive does not need to be proven to be convicted of a crime.
If that was the case almost no crimes would be convicted. The tapes a huge because they prove what everyone has been suspecting. Also no need to have Biden or Poroshenko interviewed or testify anymore. Tapes prove an easy open/shut case of corruption/pay to play. Those are huge crimes here in the US at least. Further, in the tapes Biden mentions Trump by name and can be said that he was meddling into Trumps campaign/presidency.
Will anything happen in the US? Most likely not. The tapes are being completely ignored by US media. But they can definely and will be used by Trump campaign in coming months and can damage Joe in same way Hillarys server issues damaged her.
Posted by: comandante | May 22 2020 12:39 utc | 35
I don't know all the ins and outs of this story but I was shocked when somehow this was used as an excuse to carry on an impeachment of Trump as opposed to a jailing of Biden.
An amazing turnabout that could only happen in la la land.
Posted by: arby | May 22 2020 15:00 utc | 36
Meanwhile in India where Modi commits all sorts of atrocities under Trump's reign! http://oneworld.press/
Marko Marjanović & The Times Of India & more...
Hunger, Misery, Chaos, Brutality, and Humiliation: The Nightmare That Is India’s
Lockdown There hasn't been a government that plunged so many of its people into such bloody. . . misery . . . !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jayant Bhandari
Hunger Games, Day-57: India; Just another day is Malthusian India. No ambulance, no taxi, no help from the police. A poor kid died, waiting for some help. No big deal for an apathetic society. Modi has destroyed all remaining institutions. India is in the hands of Malthus.
Modi allowed migrants to go home by bus !!!!
A schoolkid could have told that this wasn't going to work. So they switched to a few, one-off trains. About 1,000 migrant workers move on one such train. There are >50,000,000 migrant workers. Does he do any math?
Comment:
I am so sick and tired of the mealy mouthed western media who feign sympathy and compassion for these Indians but do absolutely nothing to hold New Delhi accountable. I am really disgusted of Indians who claim that they live in a Democracy and then watch their fellow men role on the ground because a sadistic policeman made them do it.
Comment:
India's working class are largely uneducated, their daily bread is earned on daily basis. No money no food for none of them. Grave diggers and pire torchers may be well off right now but millions upon millions who work as coolies, rickshaw pullers, fast food sellers, owner of small store or stall on the corner of the streets number in millions. They along with their families are perishing in India. You simply can't lock up a population who's very existence depends on cheap labor that are paid after the hard day of work. This is absolutely heart breaking to see a cruel government doing as it pleases while the mass is helpless.
ALSO
https://www.anti-empire.com/
Modi’s Lockdown Treats India’s 100 Million Migrant Workers as So Many Bugs
"The higher-caste policy elite sees only low-borns struggling to survive, and cannot understand the fuss. Isn’t that the natural order of things?"
Posted by: Ashino | May 22 2020 16:09 utc | 37
My theory is that Hunter Biden was placed on Burisma Board as CIA Asset. Not "Agent" - I think he'd have to be more clever and/or ruthless for that - but it makes sense for CIA to want an ear in the Boardroom. The GOP has shown that it will gladly compromise CIA when it suits their political purposes (Valerie Plame, BenghaziBenghaziBenghazi, etc). Plus, US Security agencies have traditionally been GOP patronage havens, and keeping control of those agencies is more important to them than any short-term National Security objective - especially if that objective was set by a Democratic president. Clintonite plans for salvaging USA by loosening GOP control over CIA, etc, are failing. Trump complicates things for both parties, but far worse for Democrats.
Posted by: elkern | May 22 2020 16:48 utc | 38
I tend to think b's view that this won't make much of a splash either way in the US is correct, and that there is likely something else going on behind the scenes. As for the thought that the release was more for internal Ukranian, or Ukrainian/Russian consumption, this particular release seems to fit that more. Also, what's up with the apparently sizable movement of heavy arms by the Ukies around the Donbass, and both Donbass republics putting all of their armed forces (to include all reserves) on high alert? And could there be some strange connection, yet to be revealed?
Posted by: J Swift | May 22 2020 17:51 utc | 39
What I don't understand fully was why did Germany support the dissolution of the Ukraine. My guess is that it was a mix of American pressure with a sense of opportunity. . … vk 22
It was one prong of the German drive to kontrol - cheap labor, captive consumers .. great agri land, etc. the European East, in line with economic expansion etc. in that direction via the EU as previous. (Not dissolution, but exploitation and take-over of parts of the economy.)
Merkel supported Klitschko the Boxer for Prez. to the hilt to the point some argued she was enamored, her adoring eyes, etc. (Idk the real reason.) She also insisted Yulia of the Braids be released from jail, this favor was granted.
For the rest, Nein, Germany could just stay home or take a back seat so far back not even wheat contracts would be granted.
Poroshenko and our man Yats, Victoria's, F the EU, would see to US dominance.
The whole Ukraine story is most often framed in ‘intl domination politics’ and ‘moves against Russia’ (see the hysterical screaming about Crimea, and then nothing happens) but really it was just a bunch of mostly Democrat (some Repub) racketeers looting where they could.
Pic March 2014, emblematic, the Ukr - German team :)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BiIAqhlCQAIpe5A?format=jpg&name=large
Posted by: Noirette | May 22 2020 17:53 utc | 40
Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 21 2020 23:59 utc | 29
Boy that is one quick pile of lies and innuendo.
Posted by: TominAZ | May 22 2020 18:20 utc | 41
" What I don't understand fully was why did Germany support the dissolution of the Ukraine. My guess is that it was a mix of American pressure with a sense of opportunity. . … " vk 22
"It was one prong of the German drive to kontrol - cheap labor, captive consumers .. great agri land, etc. the European East, in line with economic expansion etc. in that direction via the EU as previous. (Not dissolution, but exploitation and take-over of parts of the economy.)" Noirette
To understand what drives the German government to involve in the Ukrainian Issue, has to consider that Germany heavily depends on imports like oil and gas.
These resources are empowering the economy in Germany and as there are no gas fields in the German soil, that could satisfy its demand, every possible interruption of that flow is a economical (and political) threat to Germany.
Over 40% of that gas comes from Russia and usually they had it streamed over Ukraine to Germany and as it was also used to heat up the Ukraine.
Kiev really got the Russian gas cheap for the permission to let it stream further west.
But one day the elites in Kiev decided not to pay the Russian bill and even got the pipeline closed for any other country (like GER).
This was the moment Germany was nearly "forced" to step in, but as other pointed out: the German economy is always eager to expand its access to foreign markets (as there a no real competitors in the east) and when there is a way to please the US administration, you can definitively count on how the German political elite will react.
There are some views that suggest this whole mess started with wish to put more pressure on Russia (selling enough gas is essential for them) and with the hope that EU consumers have to buy the costly fracking gas from US soil in the future.
Well, they failed: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50247793
Posted by: doch | May 22 2020 20:12 utc | 42
VK @ 22, Noirette @ 40, Doch @ 42:
There used to be a blog called German Foreign Policy or similar which had an article that Ukraine and its separation from Russia by and large had long been a project of German political elites since Ww1 when Germany became aware of the weakness of the Russian empire under Tsar Nicholas II. This drive to separate Ukraine from Russia and then the Soviet Union continued into the Nazi period. One of the aims of Operation Barbarossa in 1942 may have been to make Ukraine a puppet Nazi state to fit in with the long-term German goals of securing farming land and gaining access to Caspian Sea oil and gas. That would explain why the Nazis worked with Stepan Bandera and other psychopaths in the OUN but only up to a point before the Nazis threw Bandera and some of his fellow scum into jail.
Even after WWII there were apparently still people in West German and then post-unification politics who held this dream of acquiring Ukraine as a German satellite state. Elmar Brok (?), chairman of Angela Merkel's CDU, was mentioned by that GFP blog as being enthusiastic about the idea.
Posted by: Jen | May 22 2020 20:51 utc | 43
Hi all -- has anyone considered the possibility that Biden is actually feigning dementia, so as to make prosecution difficult or impossible, if/when when the time comes?
Posted by: AntiSpin | May 22 2020 22:19 utc | 44
jen @ 43
https://www.german-foreign-policy.com/news/detail/6281/ ?
thanks for pointing that out.
I just read an other article that pointed out how figures like Stepan Bandera(OUN-B) were supported by the German intelligence during the cold war - even so they exactly knew what they had done to the Jewish population in 1940: https://www.invissin.ru/topics/ukrain_en/the_bandera_militia_and_lviv_pogroms_of_1941/?print=Y
"We knew him for 20 years" Heinz-Danko Herre (BND),1959
The Nazis put Bandera to Sachsenhausen in a comfortable cell building (together with Kurt Schuschnigg) because he declared the independence of the Ukraine - something that was not negotiated with the German occupiers.
The Wehrmacht wanted to have their hand over the Ukrainian grain ("Hungerplan" from 1930) so they don`t have to face famine like in WWI.
Now we have not the OUN-B, but the UNA-UNSO:
https://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-secretive-neo-nazi-military-organization-involved-in-euromaidan-snyper-shootings/5371611
Posted by: doch | May 22 2020 22:24 utc | 45
Doch @ 45:
Yes that is the blog though the article I saw was in English.
Eh, my memory is not so bad after all, it's been five years since I last read anything on that site. Thanks for finding it.
Posted by: Jen | May 22 2020 23:19 utc | 46
Jen, yeah, history, thx!, Merkel is just the contemp. watered down version.. heh cf. US boot(s). doch, yes, energy is a vital topic here.
Posted by: Noirette | May 23 2020 15:47 utc | 47
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b.. thanks... i think you are right... you have to figure some sort of dance is going on with regard to the upcoming usa election to paint biden a particular way.. depending on who is throwing the most amount of money around, bidens involvement in ukraine can be used as a political tool against him potentially very effectively.. who is paying off who to keep their mouth shut and etc. etc...
Posted by: james | May 21 2020 16:06 utc | 1