Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 11, 2020

The Novel Coronavirus Went Global In November - Or Maybe Even Much Earlier?

The first wide outbreak of the Covid-19 disease caused by the SARS-CoV-2 virus was identified in late December 2019 in Wuhan, China. But recent reports suggest that the virus circulated much earlier, and not only in China, than was previously known.

It is known that the virus is genetically ~96% similar to a virus that currently occurs in bats in south China. The genome of the virus has a length of 30,000 nucleic acids. A 4% is difference suggest that 1.200 must have changed through mutations, recombination and natural selection for the differences to evolve.  Experts estimate that it took 20 to 70 years for the SARS-CoV-2 virus and its relative in bats to develop from a common ancestor. The development of SARS-CoV-2 likely did not take place within bats but in some animal which has an organism more similar to the human one. The German virologists Christian Drosten, who is an acknowledged expert in coronaviruses, has suggested raccoon dogs as a possible intermediate host.

The genome sequences of the viruses show slight mutations which can evolve with each imperfect replication. The mutations usually do not change the functioning of the virus but they can be used to build a genealogical tree of the virus. Researchers have shown that the first known case in Washington State probably came directly from Wuhan while the prevalent virus types in New York are similar to ones previously seen in Europe and likely came from there.

Such analyses point to Wuhan as the source of the current outbreak and to October as the time of the first jump from an animal to a human. But the data is naturally incomplete, only relatively few occurrences of the viruses get sequenced, and there may be previous mutations no one is yet aware of.

China is still trying to find the first person in China that carried the virus. Old blood samples and radiographic chest pictures of previous pneumonia cases are now being retested and reviewed to find earlier cases.

The South China Morning Post says that earliest known Chinese patient one fell ill on November 17:

According to the government data seen by the Post, a 55 year-old from Hubei province could have been the first person to have contracted Covid-19 on November 17.

From that date onwards, one to five new cases were reported each day. By December 15, the total number of infections stood at 27 – the first double-digit daily rise was reported on December 17 – and by December 20, the total number of confirmed cases had reached 60.

In late December doctors in Wuhan connected six cases of pneunomia which had similar rare progression of the disease and concluded that there was a new bug in town. After it was established that the disease was caused by a new virus a systematic look for earlier occurrences was launched. It is not at all astonishing that previously unrecognized cases were found.

But it was not only in Wuhan that earlier cases were found.

Anecdotal evidence from Bergamo, Italy, that was ravaged by the virus in February, strongly suggests earlier cases:

A “strange pneumonia” was circulating in northern Italy as long ago as November, weeks before doctors were made aware of the novel coronavirus outbreak in China, one of the European country’s leading medical experts said this week.

“They [general practitioners] remember having seen very strange pneumonia, very severe, particularly in old people in December and even November,” Giuseppe Remuzzi, the director of the Mario Negri Institute for Pharmacological Research in Milan, said in an interview with the National Public Radio of the United States.

“This means that the virus was circulating, at least in [the northern region of] Lombardy and before we were aware of this outbreak occurring in China.”

France recently also reported a case in November:

Covid-19 cases in France can be dated back to as early as November 16, nearly 10 weeks before the country’s first confirmed cases of the disease were thought to have occurred, according to a French hospital.

The November case was identified by the hospital’s medical imaging department after carrying out a retrospective study on about 2,500 chest scans performed between November 1 and April 30.
In France, some cases were already in circulation in November, said Michel Schmitt, chief doctor of the medical imaging department at Albert Schweitzer Hospital in the town of Colmar in Alsace, near the border with Germany.
“[There was a] very slow progression of the pathology’s negative impact until the end of February, then a rapid increase in its impact, peaking on March 31.”

A chest scan that shows a widespread 'ground glass opacity' is typical for Covid-19 patients and differs significantly from scans of typical pneumonia patients.

But archived chest scans are not the only signs that the disease has occurred in a former patient. Subsequent blood tests for antibodies can identify patients who recovered from the disease. That apparently happened in New Jersey:

The mayor of Belleville is making a startling yet uncorroborated claim that he contracted the coronavirus in New Jersey in November, two months before the first confirmed U.S. case in Washington State.

Mayor Michael Melham said he recently asked his doctor, days after a routine physical, to test his blood for COVID-19 antibodies — and got a positive finding on Wednesday.
He recounted becoming ill while in Atlantic City attending the New Jersey League of Municipalities Conference.

“I was definitely feeling sick when I was there, and fought my way through it," he told NJ Advance Media on Thursday.

After returning home Nov. 21 from the convention, Melham said a doctor diagnosed his worsening symptoms — including a 102-degree fever, chills, hallucinations and a sore throat that ended up lasting for three weeks — as a bad case of the flu.

“I have never been sicker in my entire life,” Melham said, though he acknowledged that he did not have the respiratory problems often associated with the coronavirus.

In a phone interview, Melham conceded he does not know he had the coronavirus.

“Nobody can be sure,” he said.

“But I am nearly certain, for two reasons: I have never been that gravely ill in my adult life, and the antibodies that I have are the longer-term ones, not the most recent ones,” he said.

His test result showed the IgG antibody, which according to Science News lasts longer than the IgM antibody that typically is produced about a week after infection.

Melham said he has done no traveling in recent months, other than a late-January trip to Puerto Rico. He lives alone.

The symptoms the mayor describes, especially the hallucinations which are uncommon in patients with a flu, fit those of a 'mild' case of Covid-19. And while the quick blood tests can have some false positives they only rarely react on antibodies to other viruses. Some enterprising researcher will hopefully ask the mayor for another blood sample and use a more specific laboratory test to give a definitive judgment of the case.

The above show likely and definitely mid-November occurrences of Covid-19 in China, Italy, France and the United States. More such findings from elsewhere are likely to come up in the near future.

That the virus had traveled so far back in November means that it must have been around for much longer than anticipated.

A conspiracy theory by one George Webb had suggested that a U.S. soldiers, Sergeant Maatje Benassi, carried the virus to the Military World Games in Wuhan and had spread it there. The claim has been debunked and in the text below his original video Webb, who is known to peddle disinformation, retracted it while spinning a new conspiracy theory:

I am officially retracting my earlier reporting that Maatje Benassi tested positive for CoronaVirus. I realize now I was being fed bad information to entrap me ...

The Military World Games in Wuhan ended on October 27. It is unlikely that the virus spread from there to come up just two weeks later in completely unrelated persons in four different countries.

One will probably have to go back further to find possible first outbreaks. This July 2019 cluster of pneumonia of unknown cause in Fairfax County now looks awfully suspicious:

A third person has died following an outbreak of respiratory illness at a Fairfax County assisted-living facility that began more than two weeks ago, county health officials said Wednesday.

The outbreak at Greenspring Village in Springfield also spread to the unit’s staff, affecting 19 employees, Fairfax County Health Department officials said.

At a news conference Wednesday at the agency’s headquarters, Benjamin Schwartz, director of epidemiology and population health at the Fairfax County Health Department, said tests, including those conducted on 17 samples by the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, have failed to identify a likely cause. Tests for Legionnaires’ disease have also come up negative. Officials tested for a range of common virus- or bacteria-borne respiratory illnesses.
[In a] notice that went out on July 10 from Donna L. Epps, an administrator at Greenspring, said several residents had been having symptoms of respiratory illness, including fever, coughing and body aches. Epps’s notice, which says the symptoms recede in about five to seven days with treatment but have caused pneumonia, also announced limits on visitors, enhanced sanitation measures and other steps.
Late Tuesday, the Health Department gave an updated tally, saying 63 people in the assisted-living and skilled-nursing unit have become sick. The agency said there have been no new hospitalizations since 23 people were admitted after the outbreak began June 30. The agency was alerted to the outbreak on July 8.

Greenspring Village has high ratings and is expensive. They presumably have qualified staff. They isolated early and thereby probably prevented a further spread. The symptoms and the timing of the disease fit to a Covid-19 diagnosis and the patients tested negative for all other known causes. One hopes that the chest scans from the pneumonia patients still exist and can be used to make a definite judgment.

Who the first human was who carried the virus and where it was infected is still unknown. That the virus was first detected in Wuhan does not mean that it originated there. Th experts agree that the virus evolved naturally. The epidemic was certainly not caused by someone who recently ate a bat. It is likely unrelated to the 'wet' farmers market where a cluster of early patients came from. While the virus was definitely spreading there in December it is unlikely that the market is the original place where the virus moved from an animal to a human.

The appearance of cases in November in different global regions points to a much earlier first infection than previously assumed. All the early accusations against China have now shown to be as false as the promotion of the useless but potentially dangerous Hydroxychloroquine as a therapy for Covid-19.

Posted by b on May 11, 2020 at 18:35 UTC | Permalink

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Comrade Grossman's Berlin Bulletin # 177 (Asparagus and Bombers) is in the email...with a jolly observation> "...As for labor power; while it required lengthy bargaining and red tape to rescue 70 child refugees from the immensely over-crowded, filthy camps on the island of Lesbos, it somehow proved quite possible to break though all restrictions and fly in 80,000 Rumanians, quarantine them and let them dig up the asparagus – until St. John’s Day. ..."

Which says something about the priorities involved in "protecting the populations..."

And provides context for our Sister, the lady German lawyer...vide supra.

Posted by: Walter | May 12 2020 11:55 utc | 101

The good thing with ppl condemning quinine is that it has allowed poor countries to buy and use it since February. I have no doubt that if it had been known as a 100% cure the fat cats would have organized their monopoly over all the lines of production.

Posted by: Mina | May 12 2020 12:17 utc | 102

Interesting, the Fr vice-minister of defense was interrogated today by the Senate about the gov response to the epidemy, and she said there was no plan to test the athletes who participated in the military olympics in Wuhan "because even if they tested positive there would be no way to know when they caught it"... no kidding? And if they were all positives, wouldn't that give a hint?
(in French, from Le Parisien live covering)

12h55. Pas de dépistage pour les athlètes des Jeux militaires. La secrétaire d'Etat aux Armées Geneviève Darrieussecq, interrogée lors d'une audition au Sénat, estime que dépister les athlètes français présents en octobre aux Jeux militaires mondiaux de Wuhan, en Chine, n'aurait « pas de sens » car les tests, si positifs au Covid-19, n'indiqueraient pas la date de contamination.")

Posted by: Mina | May 12 2020 12:45 utc | 103

Yes, Mina...and Brother Meyssan has posted a discussion of the "ploy" going on...anybody can read his French title > "La transformation des sociétés à l’occasion du Covid-19 annonce la militarisation de l’Europe
par Thierry Meyssan " (voltaire)

"discussion between Thierry Meyssan and a group of students. He explains that the political responses to Covid-19 have no medical purpose. A partially identifiable transnational group seized the opportunity provided by the epidemic to try to impose a profound transformation of European societies, just as it had used the attacks of 11 September 2001 to transform the United States. There is still time to oppose the hierarchisation of the world to come."

This may provide some context for our Sister, the German lawyer and also the matters Comrade Grossman has reported.

Posted by: Walter | May 12 2020 12:54 utc | 104

Walter @ 103

I do not recall who posted the link...

i did, and i wasn't being provocative, just seems like a major story to me.

here's some more:

listen carefully...

and thanks for noticing!

Posted by: john | May 12 2020 13:31 utc | 105

Russia to ease lockdown: Economy couldn’t afford to wait for Covid-19 curve to flatten, while government poll ratings fell

Putin's spokesperson Dmitry Peskov hospitalized in Moscow with Covid-19

You live by neoliberalism, you die by neoliberalism.

I wouldn't be that shocked at this point in time that, if a mysterious poll shows the majority of the Russian people would choose to avoid the dissolution of the USSR if they could travel back in time.

The Russian Federation, it is fair to say now, is a failed experiment. I'm curious to see what's Putin planning to do for the long term future of Russia - because the Federation (i.e. capitalist) will certainly not survive for long after his death.

Posted by: vk | May 12 2020 13:46 utc | 106

On Monday, May 11, ABC 4Corners broadcast a 45 minute PBS-Frontline doco called Trump & COVID-19.

It begins with what Seattle medicos call US COVID patient #1 (not patient #0)
Patient #1 was a 35 year old male who presented at a Seattle (WA) clinic on Jan 15, 2020 with flu-like symptoms upon his return from a 6-week visit to Wuhan. The clinic took samples and sent them to CDC in Atlanta. They told patient #1 to go home and self-isolate until the test result was known. CDC notified the clinic that the sample tested positive for COVID-19 and Patient #1 was transported to Providence Regional Medical Center in an ambulance fitted with an "isolation cocoon" and admitted on Jan 20.

His condition worsened and the Medical Centre sought CDC/FDA permission to offer him 'compassionate' treatment using Remdesivir on an experimental basis. His condition improved within 24 hours and he eventually recovered and was discharged from the Med Centre. The Med Centre traced and tested 60 suspected contacts with patient #1 and none tested positive for COVID-19.

^^That's the first 5 or 6 minutes of the doco^^

The remaining time is a litany of ass-covering bureaucracy, political interference, medical supply & equipment ripoffs etc etc - all the crap AmeriKKKans have become accustomed to since Neo-Liberalism began stomping on the patiently compliant 99%.

If the 4Corners version doesn't play, one can Google PBS Frontline Trump & COVID-19.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | May 12 2020 13:50 utc | 107

I don't really need to read Meyssan to agree with him.
This is how the police evacuated groups of people enjoying fresh air yesterday for the first time since 16 march outside from their daily authorization to go to the supermarket or a one hour stroll alone. And of course, they did not need to do so in the wealthy areas of Paris where the places where you can enjoy the sun are much wider and open and could never be crowded.
or as a tiny here for the paranoids (but if you are paranoid, just stop using the internet, coz there is no privacy here as we all know)

Posted by: Mina | May 12 2020 14:12 utc | 108

So now the virus may have been here for months before the media created a hysteria..... why are we destroying the economy again? Maybe, just maybe, all of this was a cover for even larger bailouts then 2008. Some of us have been saying this from the beginning

Posted by: Trent | May 12 2020 14:40 utc | 109

John 112. Thanks very kindly, and indeed the video you posted at 112 is interesting. As I quote war the law is silent, as we see...which implies the deduction that some faction is at war with some, ah, "set of persons"

vk 113 I have often read that a very substantial portion of the Russian people would prefer the Soviet . I have also read that the dissolution went against the vote... Is this your know much about the matter, and I very little...

For myself, at this point, I expect Putin to force great change in the opportunities afforded by the collapse of Empire... but this is not well supported, just a slightly informed view. Said great changes being a better Soviet ... improved, but derivative and welcome.

Posted by: Walter | May 12 2020 14:49 utc | 110

@ Posted by: Trent | May 12 2020 14:40 utc | 117

I'm not sure if you're aware how exponential functions work.

Posted by: vk | May 12 2020 14:50 utc | 111

>Patient #1 was a 35 year old male who presented at a Seattle (WA)
>clinic on Jan 15, 2020

A month later Fauci was still proclaiming in public that the evil virus was less of a problem than the annual influenza. Someplace there is a video of Fauci saying this, right around Feb 15.

I can not understand how even complete incompetents manage to make exactly the wrong decision at every opportunity. In the UK there was a policy to send elderly patients, both suspected and known to have the virus, to care homes, without even warning the care home people. Supposedly it was to make room for corona patients who were even sicker than the ones going into care homes. This is straight-up criminal negligence.

Here are sordid details from the New York Post:

The governor — who himself has described nursing homes as a “feeding frenzy’’ for the deadly coronavirus — said that the facilities can’t challenge a state regulation forcing them to admit patients with the contagion.

The CEO of a hard-hit Brooklyn nursing home, where 55 patients have died from the coronavirus, told The Post last week that he’d been warning state Health Department officials for weeks he had staffing and equipment issues — yet received little help.

“There is no way for us to prevent the spread under these conditions,’’ the head of the Cobble Hill Health Center, Donny Tuchman, wrote in an e-mail to the department on April 8.

He said he asked to move some patients to the makeshift wards at Manhattan’s Javits Center and aboard the city-docked USNS Comfort amid the pandemic, only to be told those two spots were receiving only patients from hospitals.

“I made specific requests to transfer patients, and it didn’t happen,’’ Tuchman told The Post. “There weren’t options.”

Deliberate policy decisions have killed and continue to kill people. That is perfectly clear, even while the origins of the virus and the intent of decisions are hiding in the muck. Will relatives of the dead just accept this as "an act of god", or will they come to understand these events as "acts of dear leaders"?

For two months Dear Leaders have claimed that destroying the economy, house arrest, and no care home visitors are for the express purpose of protecting ... care home residents. But most of the dead were care home residents, along with plenty of their care workers.

Yes it sounds melodramatic but I keep seeing black-and-white images of people being herded into shower rooms in order to get showered with Zyklon B. Please tell me why we are not witnessing state-sanctioned murder.

Posted by: Trailer Trash | May 12 2020 14:58 utc | 112

The search continues.

A small study in Phase 2 trial (86 patients) - Antiviral Combo therapy-
The Lancet

Extract Summary:

A triple-antiviral therapy regimen of interferon-beta1, lopinavir/ritonavir, and ribavirin shortened median time to COVID-19 viral negativity by 5 days in a small trial from Hong Kong.

In an open-label, randomized phase 2 trial in patients with mild or moderate COVID-19 infections, the median time to viral negativity by nasopharyngeal swab was 7 days for 86 patients assigned to receive a 14-day course of lopinavir 400 mg and ritonavir 100 mg every 12 hours, ribavirin 400 mg every 12 hours, and three doses of 8 million international units of interferon beta-1b on alternate days, compared with a median time to negativity of 12 days for patients treated with lopinavir/ritonavir alone (P = .0010), wrote Ivan Fan-Ngai Hung, MD, from Gleaneagles Hospital in Hong Kong, and colleagues.

"Triple-antiviral therapy with interferon beta-1b, lopinavir/ritonavir, and ribavirin were safe and superior to lopinavir/ritonavir alone in shortening virus shedding, alleviating symptoms, and facilitating discharge of patients with mild to moderate COVID-19,"[.]

In most patients treated with the combination, SARS-CoV-2 viral load was effectively suppressed in all clinical specimens, including nasopharyngeal swabs, throat and posterior oropharyngeal saliva, and stool.[.]

"Our trial demonstrates that early treatment of mild to moderate COVID-19 with a triple combination of antiviral drugs may rapidly suppress the amount of virus in a patient's body, relieve symptoms, and reduce the risk to health care workers by reducing the duration and quantity of viral shedding (when the virus is detectable and potentially transmissible). Furthermore, the treatment combination appeared safe and well tolerated by patients," [.]

Posted by: Likklemore | May 12 2020 15:06 utc | 113

@Posted by: Walter | May 12 2020 11:19 utc | 103

I also read that worrying report, and can say that a few days later a similar event took place in France..where a civilian breaking the mandatory lockdown or walking over there out of mandatory timetable, was first reduced and then sent ot a psyachiatric ward.

I myself has witnessed some videos, sent by the peers through Whatsapp, but filmed in the surroundings of our neighborhoods or job places, of locals being reduced to the floor by two policeman amongst the screams of the citizen, which put my hairs on ends...

Being myself in favor of lockdown in the first moments by personal reasons, but no more, since do not find the epidemilogical sense in the golf courses and tennis clubs, shops and bars being opened for use while I remain still semiseclused, only able to go to work, make my gorcerie shopping and walk a bit at sunset or dawn, without any possibility even of taking a walk on the beach, as it is located in the next city, scarce miles from here.

Wondering whether rich people who usually make use of golf courses live in the same city they are located. Of course, this people are the voters of the right wing local government.

Meanwhile, FFP2 masks continue to be rationed for health personel in the first level health care attention, where, at this time, massive testing of the population is being scheduled.
Thye, the health personal do not have available even one FFP2mask/ per /day.

In this conditions, I am not in favor of continuing any lockdown, since this is not serious, but is done under only economicist guidelines and interests of the big capital and right wing people. We, owrking calss, only have the obligation to go to work, health personel even risking their lives under condtions of lack of protection, but then we can not even enjoy a ray of sun or walk where we could deem we like to, at least, relax a bit and forget for a while this pack pof scoundrels leading and ruining us for nth time.
Not ot mention that the constrained timetables produce aglomerations at places and hours where before there was none.

Posted by: H.Schmatz | May 12 2020 15:12 utc | 114

@ Posted by: H.Schmatz | May 12 2020 15:12 utc | 124

Enforcing violent supression and censorship under madness accusations is a historically common practice of post-war centrism (liberalism - center-right + center-left).

The reason for this is obvious: if you call yourself a centrist/moderate, you're heavily implying you are part of the consensus, therefore the less likely to use violence to impose your will on the rest of society. Violence over the crazy and mad is a medical issue, not a political one.

Posted by: vk | May 12 2020 15:26 utc | 115

I see that hydroxychloroquinine has here many fans as if it was some kind of Manchester United club. Perhaps the revellers of the compound may own some shares in the manufacturers of the compound, which would be easier to understand. It would be good if they at least new some basic facts. A novel virus is not a rheumatic fever or whatever rheumatic as someone here suggested. There are many compounds that destroy viruses in a cell culture e.g. sulphuric acid is absolutely marvelous for that purpose but perhaps apart from Trump not many would want to have it injected or inhale it. Every year hundreds of scientists get a premature ejaculation after finding out that their newly developed substances destroy cancer cells e.g. Hela in vitro, only to find out a couple of years later that it does not work in vivo. If anyone wants to use that nice poison please take it but you may risk among other things retinal neurodegeneration cf. Please have it for breakfast every day as a prevention and do not forget to serve it to your children if you have any.

Posted by: kare | May 12 2020 15:32 utc | 116

>we can not even enjoy a ray of sun or walk where we could deem we like to

It is a totalitarian wet dream to impose a system where people can only go to work, then hide in their apartment after work. And while at work, stay two meters from everyone. No chance of any troublemakers organizing resistance to outrageous restrictions. A perfect social order!

Posted by: Trailer Trash | May 12 2020 15:38 utc | 117

I do not wish to feed the fascist trolls, so this question is directed at normal denizens of the bar. I realize that they can only speculate on an answer, but such speculation tends to be superior to any claims made by the trolls themselves anyway.

Basically, what do the trolls imagine the capitalist elites feel they gain by confining the population to their homes? Does this somehow translate to profits for the elites? Or do the capitalist elites go to the trolls' neighborhoods to enjoy the peace and quiet of the now-empty streets?

Perhaps the fascist trolls are concerned that they cannot protest the elites' excesses due to the social distancing? That could be a concern, I'll admit, but when was the last time that fascist trolls actually protested capitalist policies in the past? Are we to believe that these trolls would be out protesting capitalists accumulating more wealth if it were not for social distancing? That would be absurd!

What am I not understanding about these fascist trolls' narrative that social distancing is some sort of plot by the wealthy elites to accomplish... what, exactly?

Posted by: William Gruff | May 12 2020 15:40 utc | 118

@Posted by: vk | May 12 2020 15:26 utc | 125

Well, I always tought it was the post-war NATO way...but, well, in the end, who supports MATO?

Liberals, center right, center left, greens, new left, far right and right wing conservatives.....

Guess, in five seconds, who is going to populate the psychiatric wards when the Coronavirus leaves and there is no more excuses...A clue, the same people who populated the nazi concentration camps.

Curiously, that criminal regime was supported by the same people listed the newbies...those varieties of the fake left...

Posted by: H.Schmatz | May 12 2020 15:41 utc | 119

@111: checked R- and Python codes as published in Github. The Swedes proofed the lack of "robustness", sample runs of revised versions non-reproducibilty of results. Another Cambridge Analytics accident?

Posted by: E | May 12 2020 15:44 utc | 120

@ 112 john... i don't know why if they can go to all the trouble to do an english translation they can't put the info in a page for a person to read in about 1/4 or less of the time it takes to look at the video... it's annoying.. this is the part i really don't get about videos... i am supposed to stare at a screen 4 times as long as i would if i was given the written quotes from her... maybe i am supposed to be able to tell from her voice that she is legit?? there is info missing in that and without the background it is like a chapter hanging in mid air, less meaningful...

@ 128 william gruff... there always has to be an ulterior motive to everything, lol... that is the part you aren't getting... the problem with this thinking is nothing can be taken at face value... all actions are a direct result of some malevolent ulterior motive.. you know - bill gates agenda, new world order, totalitarian, authoritarian, police state game plan...

Posted by: james | May 12 2020 15:48 utc | 121

There are reports of a person in Angola being killed by Police enforcing social distancing rules.

To date Angola has recorded just 43 cases of coronavirus, including two deaths.

Posted by: ADKC | May 12 2020 15:55 utc | 122

@ 122 trailer trash... "Deliberate policy decisions".... i would say the deliberate policy decisions is capitalism and the profit motive writ large... when a country puts money above the health and welfare of its own people it looks exactly like what we are seeing now... that is the ''deliberate policy decision''.... i don't see it changing any time soon either... money before health and welfare.... it is about fucked up priorities, or a complete lack of morals and ethics... take yer pick...

Posted by: james | May 12 2020 15:58 utc | 123

Renegade Inc interview with Gerald Posner the author of PHARMA: Greed, Lies, and the Poisoning of America is lively, timely, revealing, and very informative! An excellent 25 minute investment of your time today. In the book which was written well before the COVID-19 breakout, Posner did address the issue of pandemic which this article reported on along with other aspects of PHARMA. And there's much more at his website.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 12 2020 16:01 utc | 124

@ adkc... apparently angola was a plantation before it was a prison...if it ain't slavery, it is some modernized version of the same... a lot of songs have been written on angola..

Posted by: james | May 12 2020 16:01 utc | 125

The far-right presidenta of Madrid Community has said, not without before firing some thousands nurses and doctors who came from other places to fight the worst of the pandemic, that if the health personel think they need masks they can buy them in the pharmacy....

This is the woman who came into politics after the useful experience of having runing the Twitter account of the dog of former presidente of far-right, Esperanza Aguirre ( , real, no joking...) of obnoxious fame for being involved in several corruption cases and being caught parking ilegaly by a policeman, to then escaping hitting the policeman motorbike...

Yesterday, Basque lehendakari ( presidente ),visited great central Cruces Hospital in Bilbao where he was booed by the health personel present working and to the balls/ovaries of the already two overwhelming workload and overwhemling lack of enough PPE, and today his spokesperson has reproached saying that this is not the time for that...When, if not?
The thing is that they have opened because they afre planning elections in July and need to give impression of normality, and, above all, that their electorate can go to vote. These are those of the opening of golf and tennis courses but of timetable at sunset and dawn for the average people to go walk, stroll of touch their balls if they deem necessary...

Absolute lack of self-criticism at all levels, nor any intention ot amend the errors ( especially related to lack of PPE )
In the middle of all this, and without any guarantee of avoiding regression in the pandemic, the cuts are already here, and rumor has it there have been an order to not employ anyone from the last medicine school promotion so as to reinforce staff.

They should be asking for forgiveness to the dead ( some health personel ), the infected because of lack of care, prevision and respect for human life especially that of the working class( amongst there have been 50.000 health workers, the world wide record so far...)and all the people who have worked hard or have lost their way of living through this pandemic so negligently managed.
The fact is that every government should be ousted, but, for that, we need to be able to go into the streets. They know it, and, as kinda oracle, Daniel Estulin guesses one time after another, these expeditive measures are here to stay, since they are finding themselves way too comfortable ruling this way.

Posted by: H.Schmatz | May 12 2020 16:09 utc | 126

Fire erupts at Saint Petersburg Covid-19 hospital after ventilator malfunctions, 5 dead

Things are not looking good for the Russian Federation. The neoconservative (neoliberalism + Orthodox Christianism fusion) utopia will quickly fall apart if Putin doesn't realize the reality of the situation soon. (see my other post here in this thread)

Posted by: vk | May 12 2020 16:10 utc | 127

Posted by: ADKC | May 12 2020 15:55 utc | 132

There are reports of a person in Angola being killed by Police enforcing social distancing rules.

A person being killed by police enforcing any kind of rule is hardly a news. Especially in that part of the world.

Posted by: hopehely | May 12 2020 16:10 utc | 128

james @131

OK, I can accept that. In fact, I agree that there are often ulterior motives in geopolitics/geo-economics and surface claims are just decorations for consumption by the masses. I always assume that the ulterior motives are to somehow benefit those with the power to influence events, though, so I am wondering where the benefit is. When I cannot determine how the main actors profit from some secret plot, then I suspect that the narrative about the plot might just be fiction. Or are we to believe they just do this for fun? Like little kids poking a hornets' nest?

Capitalist A: "Hey, how long do you think we can get them to stay in their houses?"
Capitalist B: "I bet we can keep them holed up for months! I wanted to shut my businesses down and take a vacation anyway."

It was VK who suggested that this shutdown is something like a global general strike. When you look at it that way you just know that if unions were behind the shutdown then the union leadership would all be jailed or worse by now. How is this benefiting the elites? Or to make the question more accurate, how do the trolls imagine this benefits the elites?

Thanks for shining some light at the issue!

Posted by: William Gruff | May 12 2020 16:11 utc | 129

@ 139 william gruff.. it makes no sense on the face of it and it definitely doesn't benefit capitalism as i understand it... it cries out for a more socialist response looking after the welfare of people before the welfare of wall st.. but i heard the trillions were going to the corporations, not the little people.. more trickle down ideology i guess.. vk's analogy is a good one... one way that it could be said to work is the erosion of freedoms is very real... there has been a movement in this direction for some time.. this is the icing on the cake... but even if this is the case - and i think it is - i see this as creating greater instability in the whole system.. i am stumped for how this benefits the 1% myself.. i just dont see it either...

Posted by: james | May 12 2020 16:21 utc | 130

COVID-19: Security forces in Africa brutalizing civilians under lockdown

"Nigeria, South Africa, Uganda, and Kenya are some of the countries that security agencies have used brutal means to keep people off the streets. The brutality contradicts some of the measures put in place that allow people to go out only for essential purposes, such as buying food and medication."

Posted by: ADKC | May 12 2020 16:23 utc | 131

Posted by: William Gruff | May 12 2020 16:11 utc | 139

Or to make the question more accurate, how do the trolls imagine this benefits the elites?

They do not imagine anything. They do it for a sandwich and two beers. Lumpen-proletariat.

Posted by: hopehely | May 12 2020 16:23 utc | 132

William Gruff @128--

IMO, many current trolls are employed by Big PHarma, which after listening to Posner makes sense. There's also the Big Problem Trump's Treasonous Do Nothing Policy created which he's trying to deflect by threatening actual war with China. Getting what remains of the Real Economy going again is oh so very important since the fiat Ponzi Scheme needs it to prevent its blowing up--think global dollar velocity here as the gap between M2 Money Supply and Dollar Velocity is going in polar opposite directions: M2 going up vertically, Velocity going down vertically, the gap being a massive maw of divergence denoting extreme macroeconomic fragility. Trump's continuing contradictions show him as a solo dancer stepping on his own feet but recovering just before he keels over. Shadowstats GDP Chart was finally made current but " First-Quarter Numbers Are Incomplete, Facing Downside Revisions and a Second-Quarter Collapse," so expect the redline to be well below zero and the blue line well below 5%. The record's clear about the connection between a failing economy and failed POTUS reelections. Yes, Trump and his crew must depart, but their replacements won't be any better for Main Street, so the trolls will continue after changing hats.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 12 2020 16:25 utc | 133

james @ 131

... i am supposed to stare at a screen 4 times as long as i would if i was given the written quotes from her...

well, gee willikers, i didn't mean to ruin your day, james, but some of us found it interesting. what can i say?

there's more background in the link i provided in the open thread, from which Walter quoted @ 103...

but don't give yourself ulcers or anything.

Posted by: john | May 12 2020 16:37 utc | 134

@b 89

so that's why my posts have been deleted of late.

yes I use VPN and yes I use a fake email address. However I have been using the same fake address in the hope you'll notice that consistency.

I do that because when/if this board gets owned using any email addresses connected might mean my worldview will be used against me.

I only comment here because it doesn't require registration. and I only really started because of the waves of disinformation over the Hong Kong riots.

anyway I'll assume I'm no longer welcomed to post with my fake email if I don't see this posted. no biggie. I do still, wholeheartedly thank you for one of the best analyses around....

Posted by: A.L. | May 12 2020 16:46 utc | 135

@Posted by: William Gruff | May 12 2020 16:11 utc | 139

The elites benefit by getting a cover up for a system which after all was going to break down sooner or later with or without the virus. They get rid of some hundred thounsands of retirees on pensions and every country in the world, plus the surplus of third world about to be refugees of all ages, plus some dozens thousands of about to retire first world people, plus some dozens thousands first world who get crippled by the virus and condemned to retire in advance getting miseyr pensions, plus, probably declare the pension system bankrupt once nations ruined, along the banking system with which the saving of anyonme able to save will be seized or reduced to pennies of value, so that some US hedge funds, like BlackRock, grab all there for pennies, everything so as to revive US dying economy ( as some developing countries have acquired the bad custom of not letting themselves be plundered any more..), to then count with millions of people into an army of unemployed with whom to throw wages to the floor, now when they were rising a bit in Europe, and we were even growing again, after a decade of working hard and suffering loses of rights through the last crisis imported from the US.

Not to mention that such a deep depression acts as disuniting factor favouring the breaking out of nations into tiny regions, an old project of liberal elites... United States of Europe...which you will come then to conquer/ it happened after the las Great War...all this when disenting voices have started to e heard lately...and your twisting of arms were not prudicing the accustomed effects...

If, at the same time, you get with derailing the Chinese locomotive, and, by passing you, achieve turning the events in the Middle East where you were sorlely ruining and thus making it more difficult for your oppenents to invest in miltary might...Well, one would say that seems a round business..

Those who wonder so much, being otherwise so awaken, seem to be in the opposite side of the people , well payed, or living on rents, promoting the elites narrative...or labeling any disenting voice as troll.

That there are trolls here, that is way evident, but not all those being banned are the trolls, in my view, there are a few who not only are new , but are quite gross with any regular who they deem promoting a point of view which could debunk theirs, and all in all have achieved flooding the comments section whule the rest of us or are discouraged to comment amongst such audience or are just working a lot, through the pandemic. These trolls, obviously have nothing to do, except acting as gatekeepers here.

Posted by: H.Schmatz | May 12 2020 16:48 utc | 136

The mind-blowing history at Fort Detrick

China Tit-For-Tat Wuhan Flue now Detrick Flue...

"...Over the past decades, leading researches on a wide range of viruses and bacteria were conducted inside the sprawling complex. Its state-of-the-art facilities also store some of the most dangerous toxins known to mankind, including Ebola, anthrax and the SARS coronavirus."

Posted by: JC | May 12 2020 16:52 utc | 137

If anything the last 12 years have all been used for the same thing, keep the financial system on life support. Anyone who understand the basics of math can understand the system is bankrupt. Anyone else who has been paying attention the past 12 years or longer knows that we have two sets of laws in this country. One for little people and one for rich people. The bailouts that happened "due" to covid 19 were magnitudes larger then 2008. And you ask how does anyone benefit from this?

Posted by: Trent | May 12 2020 16:57 utc | 138

thanks john... silly me, lol...

Posted by: james | May 12 2020 17:01 utc | 139

@Posted by: A.L. | May 12 2020 16:46 utc | 147

if it serves you vof something, and probably risking being myself banned too, I also post with fake name and email, how not, being this site, as Walter says, read y every spook out there? I also came here for the same reasons you came. During a time i also used the few hours of VPN my antivirus provide each day for protection. I guess b should go along with that due the increasing state of exception...if it is for resisteance conservation.

After all we do not know who b is, or who agencies of indivuduals can get the data of the people frecuenting this, and others for that matter, sites...

Posted by: H.Schmatz | May 12 2020 17:01 utc | 140

Dr. Fauci in his testimony today has once again contradicted boss Trump and raises Vaccine Trial Safety Concerns --warns against re-opening prematurely as Trump pressures the governors to re-open.

Dr. Fauci Raises Vaccine Trial "Safety Concerns", Says Remdesivir Has Been "Modest Success"

Update (1040ET): Testifying virtually, Dr. Fauci delivered his opening statement, offering lawmakers a test of all the different efforts underway to find cures - using, in many cases, broad-spectrum antivirals - and vaccines. Notably, Dr. Fauci noted several caveats, one being that Gilead's remdesivir has proven to be a "modest success" by the results so far - it's not the 'game-changer' the market would like to believe. Dr. Fauci also noted that some of the vaccine trials could cause harm to test subjects, while listing at least 8 vaccines (including Moderna's) in some stage of development.[.]

where is Billy G?

Posted by: Likklemore | May 12 2020 17:04 utc | 141

karlof1 @143

Grim stuff from shadowstats, but I think you might be overly optimistic about the GDP. They say the figure is annualized and suggest that the actual rate of change has already gone negative. It just doesn't show yet due to the way it is calculated. I'd look at that V-shaped dip at 2009-2010 and bet when next quarter figures come out we will see the graph go well below that low. It will take a couple more quarters before we can tell if there will be a right hand leg on that new V or if it will land on that -10% line without any bounce like a sandbag falling off a roof.

Personally, I think the ponzi scheme that you speak of has probably already blown up. The stock markets are racing, but there is no traction whatsoever with the real economy. Like a car with a blown clutch, you can race the engine all you want but you're not going anywhere.

"M2 going up vertically, Velocity going down vertically"

Yep. It's as if the link between the two has exploded. Watch out for flying shrapnel from the old economy!

Posted by: William Gruff | May 12 2020 17:14 utc | 142

"They do not imagine anything. They do it for a sandwich and two beers. Lumpen-proletariat." --hopehely @142

That is what I have suspected too. It's why they leave out that little detail.

Posted by: William Gruff | May 12 2020 17:17 utc | 143

"one way that it could be said to work is the erosion of freedoms is very real... there has been a movement in this direction for some time." --james @140

That is very true, but curtailing freedoms costs. Letting people do what they want is cheaper, and there are profit opportunities in it as well.

"i see this as creating greater instability in the whole system.. i am stumped for how this benefits the 1% myself.. i just dont see it either..."

Same here. The argument just doesn't make sense to me.

Posted by: William Gruff | May 12 2020 17:26 utc | 144

In my opinions Fort Detrick is the place where The American’s worst of the worst dirty tricks originated and blames it on China or any nation as the president chooses. China today Canada tomorrow or even UK in the future.... any reason not to believe me? Read it yourself a well written and researched piece by CGTN. Australia, Germany or other nation, worlds’ leaders speak up "force" US to open up Fort Detrick for investigations if she has nothing to hide.

We all know it will never happens..... but China never invent anything, they steal, cheat, lied....

"In official terms, the main goal of the program was "research and development of chemical, biological, and radiological materials capable of employment in clandestine operations to control human behavior," according to a declassified memo produced by the CIA .."

"Declassified documents reviewed by CGTN showed the premises being investigated under the program ranged from the bizarre to the extremes of science fiction: Drugs that would "cause mental confusion;..."

Posted by: JC | May 12 2020 17:29 utc | 145

How is this benefiting the elites? Or to make the question more accurate, how do the trolls imagine this benefits the elites?
It benefits the elites if the pandemic can be turned off as suddenly as it was turned on. This is how recessions always benefits those who have access to the cash to buy up cheap assets during a downturn.
However it is hard to imagine how this will not be like the Great Depression and turn into a long drawn out affair and that will not benefit the elites.

The words of Marriner Eccles describes how/why the elites had to concede power back to workers because their wealth cannot be sustained when 30% of the workers are idled for a long period.

Posted by: jinn | May 12 2020 17:30 utc | 146

Probably someone has noted this, but b says,

"The Military World Games in Wuhan ended on October 27. It is unlikely that the virus spread from there to come up just two weeks later in completely unrelated persons in four different countries."

This does not mean that it could not have been the origin of the virus in Wuhan and even China. It is clear that we have no clear idea of where the virus originated, yet. Yet without clear evidence there seems to be a ot of political finger pointing

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | May 12 2020 17:36 utc | 147

@ H. Schmatz @148

"If, at the same time, you get with derailing the Chinese locomotive"

China was the first country to lockdown. To insinuate that the Chinese were in on the PLOT and at the same time insinuate that the China Locomotive will be derailed by the PLOT is way way out there.

Posted by: arby | May 12 2020 17:43 utc | 148

Jackrabbit | May 12 2020 2:46 utc | 62

USA companies will exit China pronto to avoid their assets being confiscated by China in retaliation.

Strange you should say that. Apple leading the way of course. They have just announced that they are moving $40B of production (with their existing contractors Foxcomm etc)from China to India. Still leaves over $200B in China but its a toe in the water. Note its not back to the US even though they have just had a big US tax saving. They claim its to sell more in India, plus there are big Indian financial inducements.

Posted by: JohninMK | May 12 2020 17:55 utc | 149

Sometimes I wonder why the troll hunters are so obsessed with calling people trolls. It's not very informative, and derails the forum from the actual topic. Is that the goal? Maybe shouting, "Troll! Troll!" stops the evil trolls from commenting?

I don't care who is a troll. Maybe I'm a troll. So what? Actual arguments against "wrong" ideas are far more convincing than personal attacks. When critics of anything only have personal attacks and appeal to authority, that is a sure sign they have no real arguments.

It's reasonable to sweep out personal insults and attacks on our host, like flushing a toilet. Sweeping out dissenting ideas is not very effective. The only antidote to "bad" speech is... more free speech.

Posted by: Trailer Trash | May 12 2020 18:00 utc | 150

Posted by: arby | May 12 2020 17:43 utc | 149

I have never stated te Chinese are on the plot, that is your point, in any case.
Posting now with another device as just a power outage happened here... In case b gets suspicious... Already clapping here the neighbors, even in the dark...

Posted by: H. Schmatz | May 12 2020 18:01 utc | 151

Economist Richard Wolff:

"Closed vs open economy? FALSE choice!

"National testing would enable reorganized workplaces made safe. Employers wont pay for it, Trump/GOP fear election loss from test #s. Those realities produce an economic crisis on top of health crisis.

"Capitalism is the problem; always was."

And to the troll who wished me a slow death: You begin to die as soon as you're born; so, I've been slowly dying now for 65 years and show few signs of stopping, which is why I enjoy life so much!

Posted by: karlof1 | May 12 2020 18:02 utc | 152

It's getting a bit hilarious around here what with someone wishing Karlofi a slow death and someone using the handle VK's future murderer. LOL.

Posted by: arby | May 12 2020 18:11 utc | 153

The following quote is from the the Nature Medicine manuscript published in April 2020.

It is possible that a progenitor of SARS-CoV-2 jumped into humans, acquiring the genomic features described above through adaptation during undetected human-to-human transmission. Once acquired, these adaptations would enable the pandemic to take off and produce a sufficiently large cluster of cases to trigger the surveillance system that detected it1,2.

All SARS-CoV-2 genomes sequenced so far have the genomic features described above and are thus derived from a common ancestor that had them too. The presence in pangolins of an RBD very similar to that of SARS-CoV-2 means that we can infer this was also probably in the virus that jumped to humans. This leaves the insertion of polybasic cleavage site to occur during human-to-human transmission.

Estimates of the timing of the most recent common ancestor of SARS-CoV-2 made with current sequence data point to emergence of the virus in late November 2019 to early December 201923, compatible with the earliest retrospectively confirmed cases24. Hence, this scenario presumes a period of unrecognized transmission in humans between the initial zoonotic event and the acquisition of the polybasic cleavage site. Sufficient opportunity could have arisen if there had been many prior zoonotic events that produced short chains of human-to-human transmission over an extended period. This is essentially the situation for MERS-CoV, for which all human cases are the result of repeated jumps of the virus from dromedary camels, producing single infections or short transmission chains that eventually resolve, with no adaptation to sustained transmission25.

Professor Gee's 2 cents worth, based what is in this posting of Moon of Alabama

The Virus likely was circulating in Humans undetected for some time with occasional outbreaks of severe disease. This is in my opinion the most likely explanation since what appear to be previous outbreaks are so widely dispersed on the planet unlike the Middle East Sars which appeared to have been due to separate but multiple jumps from the mammalian reservoir to humans. Other experts have stated and I agree that this Sars virus may have been circulating in Humans for years and even a decade or more with these unrecognized small outbreaks which would have been naturally unnoticed.

It was both by luck and intellect that the Chinese caught this most current outbreak when they did. The politics of Corona are a disgrace to Humanity but now will be overshadowed by Obamagate. Perhaps by design.

Posted by: Professor Gee | May 12 2020 18:14 utc | 154

Got It!

Trump presents his first invoice for COVID-19 costs to China. Poisoning the relationship which may end being irreparable.

Trump Moves to Halt $4.5bn in Federal Pension Investments in Chinese Stocks

The Trump administration has ordered the prevention of federal retirement assets from being invested in Chinese equities, according to documents obtained by Fox Business.

Fox published a copy of a letter on Monday, in which two top White House officials, Robert O’Brien and Larry Kudlow, tell Labour Secretary Eugene Scalia that the administration wants the Thrift Savings Plan to call off directing $4.5 billion, citing "significant and unnecessary economic risk".[.]

O’Brien and Kudlow wrote in the letter that the grounds for holding back the funds were the alleged violation of US sanctions laws by Chinese companies and China's "culpable actions" regarding the spread of the COVID-19 pandemic[.]

And the consequences of which comes to mind? China halts buying US Treasuries and there'll be 100s of Trillions of those to finance the 2020 deficit, and COVID-19 financial assistance to corporations, states and individuals.


Oh, this bit of not being forewarned of pandemic risk:

Bill Gates said He Warned Donald Trump of Threat of Pandemic Back in 2016, 'Feels Terrible' Now

Curious why he elected to make this announcement. Bill has a mission.

Posted by: Likklemore | May 12 2020 18:16 utc | 155

William Gruff @143--

I'm probably more pessimistic on GDP than Shadowstats because that figure's more fudged than even he admits via his charts. I'd like to see what Hudson's formulation would look like as he's said real GDP for 2018 was only $9 Trillion because all the parasitic gains must be counted as a negative to the Real Economy. We both view the 2007-8 Financial Fraud Crisis that popped the Fed Bubble as the cause of what's now termed The Great Recession, and I look at it as being very similar to the USA's economic performance from 1930-1942 because that was also a Demand-based problem due to lack of investment in the entire economy AND those doing the work. The rallying cry ought to be Buy American, but what is there America makes to buy?

As announced in introductory economics texts, political-economies are designed to serve a purpose, and that purpose can be judged from the economy's outcomes. Since the last New Deal legislation, The Full Employment Act of 1946, the political-economy's been jiggered to serve the top 10%, although the change was initially incremental. The Red Scare and Anti-Communist Crusade of the late 1940s to 1960s was aimed at destroying organized labor in the USA, but the Outlaw US Empire lost the propaganda war during the mid 1950s to 1970 thanks to Segregation and the tyrannical racism very visible in the South. Had there been no USSR of Red China to compete against, African-Americans and other people of color would still be languishing as second/third-class citizens. The Big Picture History of the Outlaw US Empire is one of bondage not freedom, which ought to be even more evident during this pandemic. It's that overall status quo ante trolls try to defend even though it's killing them too.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 12 2020 18:31 utc | 156

Thanks! Being what appears to be the top target tells me I'm being very effective in my attempts to inform. So, Thanks for the very offhanded feedback. I'm not the bit intimidated.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 12 2020 18:36 utc | 157

Any who imagine that fake email accounts are not traced in a trice by the security apparatus are deluding themselves. If not over age 60 you can’t afford to even read this site, much less post. Has no one here ever met state power? I mean encountered it personally. Or watched a friend die.

The object of power is power. Stop imagining the Great Depression was something power could ill afford. Power did not even notice a moments inconvenience. Go to any of the free genealogy sites and check Donald Trumps pedigree. He descends in direct line from Charlemagne. Direct. Obama’s pedigree is even longer. Even if you think someone has misstepped somewhere a lost decade is nothing to these people. The one thing they know for sure is they always win. Always. The object of power is power.

Posted by: oldhippie | May 12 2020 18:47 utc | 158

Here is some theory from what I read/hear over there...No idea which side play the informants, but so as to make some sense due the last tendences at least in Europe and the moves y Trump and the "deep state"

According to Daniel Estulin ( and not sure whether I take him right, due his Spanish )there is a current fight amongst the liberal financial banking elites and the old European aristocratic elites and old ( very old )money, being the later those who lost the last WWII by betting it all on fascism ( overtly or covertly ), and who try to redesign the world by undoing current nation-states to then try to rebuilt and recover former European empires, like Austro-Hungarian one ( in fact, there have been already moves these past days, even during the pamdemic lockdown, amongst the Visegrads in this sense, on the part of Hungary and Romania...), the IV Reich, and so on...

Trump would be, what he calls "international black", not an accident rised to power y the deplorables, but a well planned move by those elites behind supporting him, who think the world has become unmanageable under liberal democracy. These, what they seek, is a middle-ageization of the world, with a hierarchical order kept tight through authoritarian rule where, after the galloping advance of the 6th technological paradygm, about 90% of known jobs will be lost, without time for the population to reconvert into something useful. To justify that and advance it without intercourse of a decade or so, plus without facing any resistance at all, the virus came, one would say, like fallen from the sky...

In the middle, are us all, the working class, the peasants, and the middle class ( upper, middle, and low ) who never left being working class, eventhough the brainsucking by loans, hollywood, hyperconsum through big malls cheap fashion clothes, a bit of travelling, and TV. All disposable got demonstrated during the "live exercise"....All jobs related to services, tourism, clothing, cosmetics, will be lost if not those related to the luxury sector, feed by the elites.

What is left for us is what got well illustrated in the hunger games, some will run to aspire to get some crumbs, but at such price...

Of course, some amongst us, as always, are already positioning themselves as the new brown shirts, online... and on terrain....
What all those calls for denouncing your breaking lockdown neighbor, or even the one not clapping down at 8pm ( like authomats every day, during two months! )do you think were for?
To test....

Posted by: H.Schmatz | May 12 2020 18:48 utc | 159

@ Posted by: H.Schmatz | May 12 2020 18:48 utc | 160

During the events following the Russian Revolution and the 1929 crisis, capitalism certainly had a choice to made, between two political-administrative options for the system: 1) the liberal way (represented, at that point, by the emerging USA) or 2) the rising (nazi)fascism. Those two doctrines competed between themselves for the post of standard of governance of capitalism until the Third Reich fell at May 1945. Meanwhile, capitalists of all colors certainly speculated with both sides, some of them taking sides, other waiting and see to support the victorious model (as is typical of intra-elite political struggles in History).

With the fall of the Third Reich, the "new liberalism" (neoliberalism) model from the USA emerged as the indisputable standard for governance of capitalism. Such hegemony only strengthened after the USSR fell in 1991.

Nowadays, it is not even close: American liberal democratic model is the "natural" architecture of capitalism, the gold standard for the system. To speculate Trump flirts with fascism is nonsense (in the literal sense of the word, I'm not insulting anyone). Trump is a died-in-the-wool liberal democrat, there's no doubt about that.

What we can speculate is if nazifascism is making a come back. My guess is that, if you research enough, you'll definitely find some capitalists that are supporting nazifascism. But I don't think an active shift to nazifascism is being sought after righ now - the capitalist class as a class is still locked in with the liberal democratic model. That is, as long as there isn't a realistic threat of a communist revolution (socialism) next door.

If there comes a realistic communist revolution to the core of the Western World, the equation completely changes. It will be nazifascism all the way for the capitalist classes, no questions asked.

Posted by: vk | May 12 2020 19:06 utc | 160

mistake, i posted in the wrong thread, so this is a copy, apologies.

Petri 14, I posted re. the vaping illness near the top. Your 2) i didn’t know about, good to list. took note of the wi link.

VAP19 was COV19, imho. My judgment might be off, but consider:

How the description / classification came about is quite alarming - atypical pneumonia or respiratory ‘upset’ with no infectious agent identified was immediately tied to X, something new that directly touches the lungs -> vaping.

Smoking tobacco / hash / other / was not considered as this common behavior is ancient and has ‘known’ medical consequences, it can’t suddenly lead to atypical pneumonia and/or a list of weird symptoms, incl. gastro, with elevated T cells.

So vaping it was, for those who vaped and became ill! Recall, 60 out of 2.7K hospitalised died. Now, either vaping did make ppl more vulnerable to COV19 (possible, no idea how) or there were many others (non-vapers) ill …The vapers were honed in on, because they used ‘some substance’ -> infectious disease tied to intake of X, personal habits, etc.

Idk how many ppl in the US vape, that might be a start to some facile indicative calculations - those who died were, more men than women, and imho ‘old’ for vapers, but that is from vague news reports, not a data-base. (Here vapers are young and 'cool' , over 50-s smoke cigs and joints, idk about California…)

Then late 2019 this category of ‘disease’ was ‘dropped’ - rather, was said to have died out. (see link)

OK, docs have interpretations, takes, which don’t pan out. Yet, analysing what went on is vital. NOT done even if the follow up is basic and costs close to nothing.

Contacting 500 vape-survivors and > sero analysis for COV antibodies would provide an interesting picture, good indications and possibly precious clues. (Yes, the tests may be poor, specially for false neg. much less or not at all for false pos.)

CDC link. EVALI, their acronym.

Posted by: Noirette | May 12 2020 19:13 utc | 161

US reports record $738 BILLION budget deficit in April due to Covid-19

The world is so nice when you have the standard fiat currency! USD 738 billion printed and not one point of inflation.

Posted by: vk | May 12 2020 19:21 utc | 162

Posted by: Likklemore | May 12 2020 18:16 utc | 157

"Trump presents his first invoice for COVID-19 costs to China. Poisoning the relationship, which may end being irreparable."

I'm sorrie you're way behind. I knew before covid-9 during US-China trade war back when "Trump threatened more tariffs on Chinese imports if President Xi Jinping is not at this month's G-20 meeting (June 2019).”

The event illustrates Xi Jinping don't like Trump, avoids meeting him. And that mother freaking piece of shit keep saying publicly him and Xi Jinping is fren, even my brother (migrated in 70s) in Australia believe they are still good fren. Think and think hard - isn't that bullying? Since January 2004 on NBC Trump show "the Apprentice" I watch not more than two shows decided this idiot was raciest, bullies and sex bastard young girls..... How on earth anyone can vote for him is beyond my comprehension. Granted two freaking idiots in 2016 election... Choice? My freaking smelling foots. That's not democracy? I imagine Trump would love Xi bow and beg for mercy from a filter rich White bastard?

Since, even earlier how many poison pills adding and continue poising.... Xinjiang, HK democracy, Wuhan flue, Huawei, 5G, Chinese students, Confucius, soy beans, beef, Taiwan, WHO, IP, "Chinese never invents anything, they cheat, steal, lied...... I lost counts...

If this is democracy, I'll rather choose Socialism with Chinese Characteristics.

Posted by: JC | May 12 2020 19:29 utc | 163

@Posted by: vk | May 12 2020 19:06 utc | 161

The side effects of a communist revolution ( I mean its inherent chaos and violence of enraged to the limit masses ) but without any organization, nor ideological direction, nor any promise of betterment of living conditions, will be the result of mass unemployment without time to reconvert....and the elites acting like in this pandemic, as if all would give them a damn...every man for itself...

What do you think the people accustomed to live in the welfare state and self middle classified by the power of reality shaping, will do when left with a "basic rent" which allows only badly survival, while they witness the elites in the hill even richer than before after the last grab?

I am talking about the slum-dization of the 90% of population here...people who juts a few years ago were travelling around the world and enjoying vacations and going to restaurants and spectacles?

The people will kill ...and they know fact, Pentagon knows it long ago...before the Coronavirus...they simply can not sit back waiting for the economy to fall without taking measures...Why do you think that O´Shaugnessy in there in that bunker, waiting for Godot?

In fact, I am starting feeling this scenario not so outlandish...the disinterest shown by the elites, in general, amongst this pandemic, has spoken way too loud to whom wants to hear...I could not believe witnessing the people left to die that way in the XXI century, which such wealth and technology all over the the wrong hands, obviously...

Posted by: H.Schmatz | May 12 2020 19:37 utc | 164

This is the trailer I wanted to post on "Doomsday", since more real and graphic....

Posted by: H.Schmatz | May 12 2020 19:38 utc | 165

Thank you to whomever posted this link to the CDC Vaping illness pages.

Apparently physicians can not really tell what is caused by vaping and what is caused by something else:

EVALI remains a diagnosis of exclusion because, at present, no specific test or marker exists for its diagnosis, and evaluation should be guided by clinical judgment.

Influenza cannot be distinguished from EVALI by signs, symptoms, clinical features at presentation (medical examination), or testing.

I wonder how doctors have much "clinical judgement" for a new illness they have never seen before. If two diseases can not be distinguished one from the other, perhaps they are really the same disease? One sees this all the time in the fantasy world of "psychosomatic illness" and all its various manifestations, which is a very twisted and complicated off-topic subject.

The CDC suggests the epidemic suddenly disappeared because perhaps evildoers quit contaminating vaping cartridges with Vitamin E, but they have no data to that effect. So it is a guess. So maybe EVALI is a diagnostic fad, or maybe those people actually had corona virus.

In any event, CDC has completely lost interest in EVALI. Personally, when the vaping disease hit the media, I assumed it was just another in a long line of moral panics designed to generate clicks and fear, as it is always useful to keep populations off-balance and stampeding to and fro.

Posted by: Trailer Trash | May 12 2020 19:52 utc | 166

oldhippie @159--

Yes, I well know power continually pursues power because of its addiction to Pleonexia as I commented two weeks ago. Ultimately however, power is finite and isn't immortal, and it relies on a sustainable environment just as we all must. I've been accosted by the State and am not naïve, but I don't fear it. Power has its own set of internal contradictions capable of neutering itself, which is a process we're now witnessing. The power that's existed in what's known as the West has long been self-serving such that it never allowed itself to gain wisdom, a downfall as it now finds itself confronted by rising powers having greater wisdom than itself.

Paradigm Shifts are always rocky times, this one even more so since two paradigms are morphing at the same time. I found this USA Today article illustrative and when combined with this article, quite ominous.

At these junctures, I can't help but recall Reg Morrison's hypothesis in Spirit in the Gene. We'll both be gone when it finally plays out, and power is powerless to stop it.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 12 2020 20:09 utc | 167

Well, I mentioned some other case of a person breaking the lockdown and being sent to psychiatric ward, but could not remember well where I have read it.

In the end, it seems it was not in France, but in Italy...

Even in the case of agreeing lockdown during a time for to save lives and not to overwhelm the already diminished by the elites public health care systems, I do not favor such extraordinary measures more proper of the drakest times in Europe and the world.

Posted by: H.Schmatz | May 12 2020 20:11 utc | 168

Walter #100 etc.

I share those thoughts too. The symposium host being isolated in the local culture with its rigid demands for coformity is surely no joy.

I assume HCQ is not over the counter access in Germany nor recommended for use in the current circumstance can other barflies advise of the state of European HCQ rules?

Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 12 2020 20:18 utc | 169

Since JC @ 138 and 146 has been allowed to mention "Fort Detrick", I feel emboldened enough to suggest to him that he look up on a map of Maryland and Virginia, in the vicinity of Washington DC, a retirement village some 50 miles SE of Fort Detrick and see what it's called. Fingers crossed, this comment will last long enough for him to see it, unlike the one I sent yesterday! (Barflies, pls give me some cover by commenting on other things.)

Posted by: Jen | May 12 2020 20:20 utc | 170

for those in a quandary as to how this is benefiting the elites...

this gentleman might allay your puzzlement...

Deep Pockets Love Lockdown

Posted by: john | May 12 2020 20:24 utc | 171

Uncle Tungsten @ 170:

HCQ used to be marketed as Plaquenil in France by its maker Sanofi-Aventis until the patent expired. It may now be a generic drug. You may have to ask around pharmacies in your area depending on where you live to see what names it is being sold under and if you require a prescription.

Posted by: Jen | May 12 2020 20:24 utc | 172

@Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 12 2020 20:18 utc | 170

In Spain you will not get almost any medication without prescription, HCQ being one of them, I fear. You can only get without precription those preparations for cold or mucolitics.

Nor I would say I would use it in case it would be more easily available.

What I decided to do, in the first days of lockdown was try to take advantage of the tiny baclcony I have never used before ( I always prefer going out, to the beach or wherever to change scenery, surrounded as I am by neighbors the four corners, well, this is not precisely Melrose Place or that part of Virginia where Pat Lang lives...amongst the millionaires, with huge gardens where to do gardening, cook, swim or play tennis....)to catch some sun rays, plus take some suplement including Zinc which I anyway was taking before the pandemic for a skin problem. For the rest, washing my hands just after arriving home and wear a mask when going shopping at grocery. I have not dissinfected the whole shopping, as some adviced through videos, since I lack the time to do such thing, and besides I refuse to Become a maniatic. Neither i have dissinfected nmy shoes any time entering my own home, as I was oblied to do by a client ( who then, had his home not precisely even moderately clean...)

For the rest, I only have been able to go out to work ( where I wear mask only when in contact with people face to face, not inside my car ) and back to home, until the last two weeks when, after slight easing of measures, I am going out in the late afternoon for an hour walk, when I do not wear mask, since makes me sweat while exercising.

I use to take a hand made orange juice every morning plus lots of coffee during the morning and the working week, on weekends use to take a bit less of coffee, but a minimum of two cups never fault, and my diet could be considered in general healthy, except for some cookies or ice-cream from time to time.

Posted by: H.Schmatz | May 12 2020 20:55 utc | 173

China shows its "media boxing" abilities with this expose by CGTN on Ft. Detrick that almost entirely digs into the MK Ultra Project used as a basis for so many books and movies, the Bourne series being the most recent and IMO the best related to both genre and reality. I'd bet China knows more about the Outlaw US Empire's dirty laundry than Trump.

Trump and Obama; two Traitors deserving of sharing the same cell together.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 12 2020 20:58 utc | 174

Experts on how to change DNA may well be able to make it look non-man-made and there may be a scarefactor involved here where some altmedia-observers might fear being the targets of something deniable and nasty if they accuse the elites of having created it on purpose.

Wasnt there one quite outspoken american , McDaniels who critisised official Covid-policies and died recently?

Further by using or mimicking the environment inside a host-animal they could allow nature to do the work and then just do some sampling and testing until a bunch of interesting new virustypes resulted.

Wasnt that what went on in Kongo in 1957-60 where bloodserum from monkeys was used for experiments followed by an outbreak of the first round of an AIDS-like disease according to some experts maintaining that view much later?

Offical denial hardly settles the matter.

And about five years later they had an official hearing in the US where McNamara brought up the matter with military experts of creating something that sounded like AIDS.

Why did they let that become known?
Why did they weather such an idea in the open?

To divert attention away from an earlier origin associated with civilian authorities?

Blaming the military later is a much safer road since they always have the power to keep secrets if need be
Experts even more than the altmedia-observers would have stronger personal safety motives for supporting a natural origin.

Luc Montaigner however has a record of publishing an outrageous theory of unlikely bioelectrical remote alterations of DNA making him seem incompetent at best and a deliberate disinfoagent at worst.

That might make him safe from reprisals.

The reason I speculate that he or someone who influenced him is the origin of deliberate disinfo is the nature of the concerned ideas.

Just too weird to be possible within the realm of well established physics.

If he is dealing with deliberate disinfo what interests would he be protecting for his handlers?

Could it be DNA-related and used as a cover for manipulated DNA to be blamed on an impossible mechanism?

To protect against so called collateral outcomes of bold experiments.

I am no expert but I think there is a hot topic related to altering DNA inside our bodies.

Posted by: Peter Grafström | May 12 2020 21:23 utc | 175

176 Cont'd--

Another example of China's Media Boxing with hat tip to Petri Krohn:

"Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Hua Chunying's Regular Press Conference on May 8, 2020....

"The Paper: US Secretary Pompeo and State Department Spokesperson Ortagus recently said in multiple interviews that the virus originated from Wuhan; China was aware of the epidemic last December but didn't act fast enough; China's data is not factual or accurate; the international community should hold China accountable, seek damages and conduct investigations. I wonder if you have any comment?

"Hua Chunying: Indeed, Secretary Pompeo, State Department Spokesperson and others seemed to be busy taking interviews lately, where they continued unwarranted attacks against China on COVID-19, accusing China of not acting fast enough or providing accurate data, and calling for investigations to hold it accountable. We've repeatedly stated our position on these. However, since the US kept repeating these lies, we must strive to help the world see the truth through facts time and again.

"They claimed China didn't act fast enough. China is among the first countries hit by COVID-19. We have repeatedly shared the timeline of China's response. On December 27, 2019, relevant Wuhan authorities received the first report of suspected cases. On December 30, Wuhan Municipal Health Committee issued an "urgent notice on the treatment of pneumonia of unknown cause". From January 3, 2020, China started to send timely updates to WHO, relevant countries including the US and regions. On January 7, China CDC identified the first novel coronavirus strain. On January 12, the NHC shared genetic sequencing information of the virus with WHO. On January 23, Wuhan entered lockdown. On April 8, the lockdown was lifted. To date, there have been no new local confirmed cases for 5 days in a row and no fatalities for 23 consecutive days.

"Now let's turn to the US. On January 3, it was officially notified by the Chinese side and started receiving daily updates. On January 25, it was the first to withdraw all personnel from its Consulate-General in Wuhan, and there was one confirmed case in the US. On February 2, it closed its border to all Chinese citizens and foreigners who had been to China in the past 14 days. There were 11 confirmed cases then according to official data from the US. On March 13, it declared a national state of emergency. At that point the number rose to 1,264. On March 19, confirmed cases passed 10,000. On March 27, the number surged to more than 100,000. On April 8, when the lockdown on Wuhan was lifted, the number of confirmed cases in the US was 400,000. Today, it's more than 1.2 million, with more than 70,000 fatal cases. Who didn't act fast enough? The facts are as plain as day. Just compare the numbers. It's simple math.

"They questioned the factuality of China's numbers. People in their right mind will not assert blindly that other people are lying just because others' numbers look better than their own. This is not children playing make-believe. The fight against the virus is a serious matter of life and death. Behind every number is a living human being, a family. China has been open, transparent and responsible in releasing information on the epidemic. The revision of data in Wuhan shows a sense of responsibility to history, to the people and to the lives lost to the virus. It can stand the test of history. We hope the US can also make sure that what they say and do and their data is responsible to the people and could stand the test of history.

"They talked about accountability and compensations. As was mentioned just now, survey results from Singapore show the Chinese people giving their government the highest rating for its response to COVID-19. Heads of the UN, WHO and many countries as well as medical experts in disease control all spoke highly of China's swift, strong and effective response which contributed to the global fight. I wonder what is the accountability a few Americans have in mind? Despite having unrivaled medical resources and technology, the US is registering the highest numbers of confirmed cases and fatal cases in the world. In spite of all this, some are still openly deflecting responsibility to China. Have they no shame? Don't they owe the American people an apology? Disregarding facts and shifting blame to China only illustrates what it means to be scoundrels."

As I've said, Trump and Pompeo are playing with fire and most certainly will get burnt if they continue as all the known and emerging facts are completely against them, and even BigLie Media doesn't seem eager to finish destroying what remains of its credibility. As Posner remarked in his interview, Social Media's become a Game Changer because it can inform people of news and other factual items like the above presser that in the recent past would go unreported--the mockingbirds are now shitting in their own nest. From further in the presser:

"I noted that US officials said their administration is different from that of China. Indeed, we are different from the US in that the CPC and the Chinese government have always put people's life first. We cherish every life and will save everyone for whatever it takes. From the elderly as old as 108 to babies as young as 30 hours old, we have tried our best to treat them. In Hubei alone, more than 3600 elderly patients over the age of 80 were cured." [My Emphasis]

My emphasized passage above shows reality is contrary to the spokeswoman's following statement:

"The political systems in China and in the US are not in conflict with each other and the two countries can surely coexist in harmony. This also serves the interests of the two peoples."

That's current CPC talking point, but it's not backed by current reality. There's more in the presser that confirms my view, and what's copy/pasted above is only about 1/6 of what was said. So, to get completely informed, please read it in its entirety.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 12 2020 21:34 utc | 176

People feel safer if they believe Covid was made in a lab--
That it is a natural occurring virus is a bit unsettling, and underscores the futility of living in an emergent and evolving world.

Posted by: Duncan Idaho | May 12 2020 21:51 utc | 177

Posted by: Jen | May 12 2020 20:20 utc | 171

I've no quarrel with you or anyone here. I don't know what "Fort Detrick" got to do with me. Whatever differences you have settled without me...

While surfing came across an interesting piece CGTN about Fort Detrick and the dirty tricks played for years and blamed China Wuhan Flue without any evidences. It's wrong what the Trump administration doing to China, and it hurt everyone especial minority like me. Even my neighbor said to me "Chinese never invents anything, they cheat, steal, lied......" And wish to share with MoA. I had never heard of Fort Detrick before even if I had long forgotten except, the passage or similar to "anthrax attacked sometime in 2001. A scientist was arrested and later sued the Gov.... This is real and did not make up. Therefore, CGTN mentioned many other cases in the article....

"anthrax attack, where several letters containing the deadly germ was mailed to American media and government offices. "

BTW, one or more of my postings were deleted.. So what! I'm a guest here, if I'm uninvited I'll get freak out.. Thanks have a good evening :-)

Posted by: JC | May 12 2020 21:58 utc | 178

@William Gruff | May 12 2020 16:11 utc | 130

It was VK who suggested that this shutdown is something like a global general strike. When you look at it that way you just know that if unions were behind the shutdown then the union leadership would all be jailed or worse by now. How is this benefiting the elites? Or to make the question more accurate, how do the trolls imagine this benefits the elites?

I think the elites benefit thusly. Even without the virus we were heading for a cataclysmic economic crash. Imagine mobs in the streets around the world, demanding blood -- and probably getting it.

The pandemic, whether accidental or deliberate, has been a gift of life itself to the 1%. The lockdowns are suppressing the mobs and the Gilets Jaunes -- for the moment. When the full consequences start to bite, the mobs may come, but at this point elites are thinking only a few months ahead.

Posted by: Cyril | May 12 2020 22:01 utc | 179

Posted by: Mark2 | May 12 2020 9:09 utc | 90 the soles of your shoes can transmit the virus so spray with anti viral when coming out the ‘John’

I wear slip-ons around the building, so never touch them with my hands. The shoes I wear going out of the building are removed when I return while my hands are still covered in food service plastic gloves (followed by hand washing, of course.)

Posted by: Walter | May 12 2020 12:54 utc | 105 Thierry Meyssan..."There is still time to oppose the hierarchisation of the world to come."

And how does he propose actually *doing* that? Thought so... This is why I pay no attention to people who view themselves as "rabble rousers" who can, well, rouse the rabble, to oppose the people who *control* this planet. All I can say is, "good luck with that." Unless you're willing to kill the people who control the corporations, the banks, and the political parties, to quote Percival Rose again, "That ain't gonna happen."

Posted by: Likklemore | May 12 2020 15:06 utc | 114 127 patients treated with three antivirals

I would question this study for the same reasons I would question HCQ. Does 127 patients who already had *mild symptoms* override the possibility that they would have recovered on their own? There's also this:

At the time of study design in mid-January, 2020, there was insufficient information on the mortality of COVID-19. Thus, we based our sample size calculation on our own findings of lopinavir–ritonavir treatment in a trial on the 2003 SARS-CoV.7 The current study was designed on the basis of an estimated difference of 26·4% in the 21-day mortality or acute respiratory distress syndrome rate in patients with severe SARS-CoV-2 infection, when treated with lopinavir–ritonavir (2·4%) versus historical controls without antiviral treatment (28·8%). The necessary sample size had been calculated to be 30 patients per group to detect such a difference at a two-sided α level of 0·05, with 80% power. The protocol proposed recruiting at least 35 patients per group to allow for a 17% dropout rate.

And this:

Our study had several limitations. This trial was open label, without a placebo group, and confounded by a subgroup omitting interferon beta-1b within the combination group, depending on time from symptom onset. A subsequent phase 3 trial with interferon beta-1b as a backbone treatment with a placebo control group should be considered, because subgroup comparison suggested that interferon beta-1b appears to be a key component of our combination treatment. Our absence of critically ill patients did not allow the generalisation of our findings to severe cases.

I have no idea whether that is statistically sufficient. This is why I want to see a review study of all these studies from the point of view of people knowledgeable in statistics and experimental design. A lot of review studies apparently conclude that a lot of medical studies - on any medical subject - are deficient in either design, interpretation of results, or have tainted funding. As a layman, I can't make those determinations myself.

I did find this interesting:

Up to now, only two open-label non-randomised trials have been reported. One trial used a combination of oral hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin in 20 patients with COVID-19 showing that this combination might reduce viral load significantly by day 6 after treatment, compared with 16 controls from another hospital, which could be due to chance because this combination was not planned a priori and the addition of azithromycin was at the physician’s discretion.23

Posted by: oldhippie | May 12 2020 18:47 utc | 159 Any who imagine that fake email accounts are not traced in a trice by the security apparatus are deluding themselves. If not over age 60 you can’t afford to even read this site, much less post. Has no one here ever met state power? I mean encountered it personally.

Correct. I spent nine years in Federal prison (as well as three years in the US Army back in the '60's), so I have seen state power naked. As for people worrying about using a VPN for this site, note that I use Private Internet Access and don't have any trouble posting. I have had a couple posts disappear, probably because b has a "spam trap" which might trigger for any number of reasons. I've had that problem on several sites in the past. So if your post disappears, it's not necessarily because b deleted it. I don't know if he monitors his spam trap for incorrectly captured posts, but I imagine that's a lot of work that most blog owners don't bother with.

"The object of power is power."

Got that exactly right. It's both a personal financial and security benefit - and a personal psychological benefit. It's human nature, which is based on primate hierarchy.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 12 2020 22:33 utc | 180

@180 JC

Please stay here. I have found your comments about China very valuable. Many thanks for those.

I don't currently have time to read all of a thread, but I get the impression that some comments have been deleted that perhaps might not have been deleted, in ordinary circumstances. But we're in very stressful times, and I think there are unintended casualties of these times.

I suspect no blame falls anywhere.


Fort Detrick. The Chinese Foreign Ministry just made it a quotable reference. In fact, as karlof1 cites a few comments up-thread, even MK ULTRA now just became a quotable reference, thanks to Chinese media.

China has obviously made a certain decision about the information war, and chosen not just to play it but to win it. This may take a couple of years, but I expect China to prevail, and I expect to see paradigms shift course in rapid order.

I was always impressed with how the Russians fought the information war - not by fighting at the level of words, but by changing the meta-meanings, the paradigms, instead.

Watching China do it next will be battle royal, on the grand scale.

Posted by: Grieved | May 12 2020 22:41 utc | 181

Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 12 2020 20:18 utc | 170

“I assume HCQ is not over the counter access in Germany nor recommended for use in the current circumstance can other barflies advise of the state of European HCQ rules?”

It was available in France OTC for decades until January before Europe had any cases. Then the Health Minister suddenly made it prescription only.

Clear evidence this whole plandemic was planned. HCQ was shown to be effective with SARS so they knew it would be useful against COVID but instead of stockpiling and make it readily available they did the opposite, and then forbid doctors to use it in the early stage of the disease which is when it is most useful - ignoring what they were told by their own respected Dr Raoult

Crimes against humanity must be punished. We need Nuremberg II trials.

Posted by: Pft | May 12 2020 22:42 utc | 182

Posted by: vk | May 12 2020 19:21 utc | 163

“The world is so nice when you have the standard fiat currency! USD 738 billion printed and not one point of inflation.”

Well, the stock market and real estate market gets inflated as well as the wealth of the 1%. But the bottom 90% is cash poor and most of them are in debt so its hard to raise prices except for stuff like insurance, medical costs, housing, tuitions (loans are govt backed) which don't get accounted for properly in the stats.

The key is they obviously have controlled markets and exchange rates so markets and rates don't react to fundamentals. This requires global cooperation so the worlds central banks coordinated by BIS keep the game going. They are preparing a change so this is basically a looting operation in advance of the takedown that will bring out a global digital currency.

Posted by: Pft | May 12 2020 22:55 utc | 183

Interesting book “Deadly Medicines and Organized Crime “ published in 2013 by PETER C GØTZSCHE

He points out “Science philosopher Karl Popper in “The Open Society and Its Enemies” depicts the totalitarian, closed society as a rigidly ordered state in which freedom of expression and discussion of crucial issues are ruthlessly suppressed. Most of the time, when I have tried to publish unwelcome truths about the drug industry, I have been exposed to the journal’s lawyers, and even after I have documented that everything I say is correct and have been said before by others, I have often experienced that important bits have been removed or that my paper was rejected for no other reason than fear of litigation. This is one of the reasons I decided to write this book, as I have discovered that I have much more freedom when I write books. Popper would have viewed the pharmaceutical industry as an enemy of the open society.

Rigorous science should put itself at risk of being falsified and this practice should be protected against those who try to impede scientific understanding, as when the industry intimidates those who discover harms of its drugs. Protecting the hypotheses by ad hoc modifications, such as undeclared changes to the measured outcomes or the analysis plan once the sponsor has seen the results, or by designing trials that make them immune to refutation, puts the hypotheses in the same category as pseudoscience.

In healthcare, the open democratic society has become an oligarchy of corporations whose interests serve the profit motive of the industry and shape public policy, including that of weakened regulatory agencies. Our governments have failed to regulate an industry, which has become more and more powerful and almighty, and failed to protect scientific objectivity and academic curiosity from commercial forces.”

Thats about it in a nutshell. Too bad the good scientists are all muzzled. Only the politicized fraudsters get the good press.

Posted by: Pft | May 12 2020 23:01 utc | 184

JC @ 180:

I mentioned Fort Detrick early on in this comments forum, I asked how close it was to the Greenspring retirement village (I found out that the assisted-care facility and Fairfax County in northern Virginia are not far from Frederick County in Maryland where the biolab is situated), where the mystery pneumonia outbreak occurred in July 2019, just a month before the biolab was shut down) and for some reason that comment of mine was deleted. Others had noticed my comment before it was taken down: the distance between the two is just under 50 miles or 74 kilometres.

No slight was intended against your comments @ 138 and 146.

Posted by: Jen | May 12 2020 23:05 utc | 185

Posted by: Grieved | May 12 2020 22:41 utc | 183

Many thanks I'll be around for a while. I'm vulnerable especially Covid-19. Since I'm a minority and been to China doing business in 90s even before China what it's today. Earlier still in the 70's when I was a unit manager with GE (General Electric) my parent forbid me to deal with them... But, my employer asked me to stationed my engineer to China helped China upgrade their vintage train... I was part of GE Apparatus Service Shop, Power generation and Locomotive in Erie PA, sold to Wabtec on February 25, 2019. I'm an OBC, believe China will not permits Trump continue bullying..

Posted by: JC | May 12 2020 23:05 utc | 186

Grieved @183--

Yes, the info war will be quite the thing. The second "media boxing" link above goes to the Chinese Foreign Ministry presser page which has an index at its bottom to access previous pressers. IMO, that's another info site to add to Favs. Also, on the Review thread, I linked to the Renegade Inc interview with Posner about Phamra and COVID-19 that's 25 minutes well invested. His book I'll order when he updates it in paperback next year. We had a Troll assault by one very mean spirited entity as you can judge from the comments @153, 154 & 158.

MoA's getting much more exposure as Pepe Escobar's linked to a few of b's articles and made further mention on his FB. Stay Well!!

Posted by: karlof1 | May 12 2020 23:13 utc | 187

Posted by: Duncan Idaho | May 12 2020 21:51 utc | 179 People feel safer if they believe Covid was made in a lab--
That it is a natural occurring virus is a bit unsettling, and underscores the futility of living in an emergent and evolving world.

Good point. It's interesting that people need conspiracies in order to feel that *someone* is in control, rather than everything just being chaos.

On the other hand, people rarely believe that the people above them in the social hierarchy engage in conspiracies. I read something years ago. Some author attended a conference of business leaders in some industry. He asked them if they thought the executives in their industry engaged in collusion or conspiracy. They all said, "sure". He then asked them if they thought the senior people in politics in the country engaged in conspiracy. None of them believed that. He speculated that it would be unsettling to people to believe that the people who *rule them* are corrupt and conspiratorial even though they know that *they* are corrupt and conspiratorial.

For the people who view themselves as "rabble rousers", however, it suits them to believe that they can *influence* history, so having everything being a conspiracy just means that they might somehow become such a "conspiracy" and defeat the conspiracy they don't like.

However, as I commented above, unless you're willing (and able, meaning you have the skills and resources) to *kill* the conspirators, one is unlikely to be able to "change history." How likely is it that any of these people will ever have the influence of a Martin Luther, or a Ghandi - or Hitler? They're not likely to be that lucky.

It's like what a pick-up artist I watched on Youtube pointed out about hot women who have a choice between working for a living at a normal job or trying to be a model or actress. Given the actual - few - numbers of available "success slots" in either profession, the odds of being successful are pretty low. One has millions of competitors in those fields trying to be on the top.

The same limitation applies to "influencers". This is why we see everyone flocking to Youtube to flog whatever they're interested in. And the ones who manage to get a couple million "followers" end up being feted as if they were "genuine" successes. Some of those people, of course, do put out useful information. A lot of them, however, are on par with a character like Paris Hilton - superficial, irrelevant. It's like celebrity worship and the worship of the British Royal family in general.

And that's all based on the subconscious notion that the more you're "visible" to the rest of the world, somehow the more "life" you get awarded from "the gods." Or at least the more you can get in terms of finances and survival chances. Everything boils down to the fear of death - and lack of social influence threatens ostracism, which in ancient times was the equivalent of death, being cast out of the tribe.

That's probably even why most of us post on blogs. LOL It's certainly why the trolls post here.

It's better to focus on one's individual survival options in a rational way, rather than trying to "roll the dice" and hope to somehow get ahead of the rest of the pack. It's better to be Harry Harrison's "Stainless Steel Rat" (a well-known series of sci-fi novels about a criminal who manages to get along in a future "crime-proof" society.) Who knows? Enough "rats in the wainscotting" might cause the system to fall.

There are times when the whole history of the world seems to me just one long shipwreck; all that matters is to save oneself. - Henrik Ibsen

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 12 2020 23:19 utc | 188

This Christian Drosten has actually been the mouthpiece of the German Government since the beginning of this hype. He can not be taken as a serious source in this case. Also, he has changed his "expert" opinion over the weeks along with the change of government policy.

Posted by: Peter | May 12 2020 23:34 utc | 189

Christian Drosten on This Week in Virology
(One must have a basic background in virology to follow)
Interesting early exposure for the scientific literate:

Posted by: Duncan Idaho | May 12 2020 23:46 utc | 190

Regarding 'which b wrote this'... on Sunday, CNN 'Reliable Sources' host Brian Stetler had a segment on the dangerous 'crazy conspiracy theorists', and how Twitter et al have to deal with them. I didn't pay close attention, but I think reporting on any HQC success is being labeled a 'crazy conspiracy theory'. I don't want b to become a casualty, so I support his stance in NOT being a HQC 'promoter' and preserving this platform. I haven't read all the comments, yet, but suspect others have noticed the building media hysteria and what it is pointed at, but I suspect not many have CNN playing all day (a family member's 'soap opera')... it is getting pretty obvious that TPTB are getting desperate, too many facts getting out - slam the doors shut! (Also preparing us for a 'return' of COV in the fall, and perpetual 'lockdown' in one form or another.) BTW, it will inevitably reveal the venality of 'Science'.

Posted by: Nancy | May 12 2020 23:51 utc | 191

Nancy @193--

So, do you have a hypothesis of your own you'd like to present to the bar?

Posted by: karlof1 | May 13 2020 0:09 utc | 192

Nevada reported cases that occurred much earlier than the first American cases were known to have occurred, which was thought to be March. Persons who believed they picked up a serious respiratory illness at a convention in Las Vegas tested positive for COVID-19, and were believed to have been infected in December.

Posted by: Mark | May 13 2020 0:13 utc | 193

Posted by: karlof1 | May 13 2020 0:09 utc | 194

Remember when you doxxes that poster here by printing his full name and home address? Do you realize you'd be dead by now if someone had done the same to you?

Posted by: Vipur | May 13 2020 0:26 utc | 194

Cuomo said. “Some 83% of new patients are out of work or retired, and aren’t even leaving their home on a daily basis. “ Obviously lock downs don't stop the virus and with many hospitals half empty and respirators proven not helpful for most the reason for continuing lockdowns escape me.

Posted by: Pft | May 13 2020 0:34 utc | 195

Posted by: karlof1 | May 12 2020 23:13 utc | 189

“MoA's getting much more exposure as Pepe Escobar's linked to a few of b's articles and made further mention on his FB. “

b on FB explains a lot. Tks

Oh well, the ranks are getting thinner. William Engdahl and Whitney Webb plus a few writers at Global Research are about the only ones seeing this for what it is, except for some who are trying to make it a left wing conspiracy intended to make Trump look bad (they serve to discredit the anti-lockdown message as politically motivated).

Trump sits on the fence in public to appease his base but he is behind this all the way since the MIC and Pharma Industrial Complex are coordinating this with Gates &Co.

Trump could easily exercise or attempt to exercise Federal power over domestic disorder, section 333 of title 10 of the United States Code,4 :

The President, by using the militia or the armed forces, or both, or by any other means, shall take such measures as he considers necessary to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy, if it-
(1) so hinders the execution of laws of that State, and of the United States within the State, that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law, and the constituted authori- ties of that State are unable, fail or refuse to protect that right,
privilege, or immunity, or to give that protection; or
(2) opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States or impedes the course of justice under those laws. In any situation covered by clause (1), the State shall be con-
sidered to have denied the equal protection of the laws secured by the Constitution.”

He is allowing states to violate US citizens constitutional rights and is paying for the economic damage these states are doing by running up the deficit

His inaction makes him an enabler. He can sign an Executive Order opening up and prepare to mobilize the National Guard and threaten to cut off Federal Aid if there is resistance.

My money is he even signs that TRACE Act HR 6666 that turns us into another China. He is not fooling anyone but the blind at this point, but blindness seems more contagious than COVID-19

Posted by: Pft | May 13 2020 0:51 utc | 196

@ 198 pft... it is pepe on fb... not b.... pepe is mentioning moa on fb... fb is a vacuous place much worse then twitter as i see it.. regardless, any platform can be used to disseminate info and i suppose that is pepe's rationale..

Posted by: james | May 13 2020 1:24 utc | 197

Ionophores facilitate zinc entry to cell nucleii, where they can stop Covid RNA replication.
Two other ionophores, available without presciptions, to take with zinc, are quercitin and EGCG-- the extract from green tea.

Posted by: James | May 13 2020 2:06 utc | 198

Sorry to interrupt the anti-malarial commercials but has anyone posted this link?

Posted by: bevin | May 13 2020 2:23 utc | 199

William Gruff @119

To answer your question, there are 4 things to understand.

I will necessarily gloss over a number of concepts for the sake of brevity.

First: in the presumably democratic West predicated on open society, the monetary system is imposed unilaterally and arbitrarily by decree and is managed behind closed doors by a appointed individuals.

So, despite our freedoms that extend to movement and to choice in where to work and how much to work for example, our "freedoms" are contingent on making use of the medium of exchange imposed and enforced by government.

We can debate here whom suggested the imposition of this particular monetary system. It is incumbent government however that is charged with the enforcement of same under penalty of violence.

Second: the monetary authority is independent of government.

Third: our monetary system is predicated on debt. This means that every new unit of credit or money that comes into existence, requires collateral as guarantee AND is owed back to the monetary authority at interest.

Fourth: Credit and money originate from a point zero and radiate out towards the periphery. Interest migrates from the periphery towards the centre. Ergo; profit migrates from the periphery towards the centre.


Here is the key.

In the absence of profit, the collateral migrates towards the centre. That is the title to the collateral that had been pledged for securing the original credit, migrates towards the centre.

Hence, for example: Science Discovers Concentration Of Ownership

Side note
Historically speaking, all monetary systems, whether fiat or value based, have been abused and, eventually, destroyed. Monetary systems are fully dependent on the trust enjoyed by the sponsor of the system. As the sponsor of the system abuses its position, trust gradually drains till the system implodes and is replaced by either a new system or a new sponsor.


Debt based monetary systems conform to an exponential dynamic because they are based on paying interest that is over and above the amount of debt originally emitted.

This means, you gradually require more debt in order to achieve the same result.

This is because the majority of debt is never extinguished. Therefore, debt is guaranteed to, eventually, overwhelm the system upon which it is based. Hence the reason that central banks have been engaged in the economically absurd tactic of lowering interest rates to ostensibly stimulate economic activity.

(Tangentially, is it not curious that we need to lower interest rates in order to stimulate economic activity whilst, at the same time, we need to tax economic activity because it is deleterious to the environment? Things that make you go hmmm!)

This is the reason why, for example, since the late 60s GDP increased 4 times (from memory) whereas debt increased many folds.

Arithmetically speaking this means that the sponsor of the system must progressively move from benevolent overseer (the system is "independent" and managed by a third party) to progressively interfering at ever greater degrees to keep the system going till, towards the end, it must create the conditions for the continuity of the system even if that requires creating artificial situations.


That is an arithmetical identity.

Increasing debt requires increasing interest payment.

Increasing interest payment must be generated through taxation.

Taxation is brought to bear through legislation.

As legislation becomes progressively more complex it:

Increases the cost of living and of doing business, thus, at the same time it:

Raises barriers to entry in business and it encourages the off shoring of economic activity to lower cost areas of the world.

Raising barriers to entry in business promotes monopolisation of business and the stifling of SMEs. (SME's provide the bulk of employment and innovation)


And now, finally, to answer your question!

There is no single answer to your question.

Those that benefit from the complete shuttering of the economy are a varied lot.

The answer is informed by the fiscal bankruptcy of the system.

Politicians are in it as an exercise in crowd control to see how quickly and how far they can control their societies.

The finance industry is in it because of the ultimate transfer of title to assets.

Other industries are in it because of the potential windfall by government profligacy.

There is a lot more of course, but that is the gist.

Posted by: guidoamm | May 13 2020 2:40 utc | 200

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