Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 29, 2020

Begun The Civil Wars Of 2020 Have

Two days ago a policeman in Minnesota, who was well known for his brutality, murdered a black man, George Floyd, by suffocating him during an arrest for allegedly paying with a fake $20 bill. (video, longer version) It was one of many such murders.

Spontaneous peaceful protests against the regime ensued.

Yesterday afternoon the regime sent in its provocateurs. One of allegedly six was a white man in black clothes, masked with a professional gas mask and carrying a black umbrella. He was filmed as he started to smash shop windows even while protesters told him not do do that. (video). When people got suspicious of him the man walked away, his umbrella still up. (video). He was later identified as a member of the St. Paul police department.

Into the night the protests grew and took on a socialist tone when people started to communalize the goods offered at a local Target market  known for its extensive surveillance. Later the local McDonald's restaurant was also liberated by fire.

The regime gave up. Police fled from the 3rd Precinct in a large convoy (video, video). Soon after that the precinct was set on fire. (video)

These are not race riots. Many of the protesters are young people of white color. (video, video)

Throughout the night more buildings were set on fire.


The local regime governor order his national guard to intervene.

The president threatened to kill the unarmed protesters:

...These THUGS are dishonoring the memory of George Floyd, and I won’t let that happen. Just spoke to Governor Tim Walz and told him that the Military is with him all the way. Any difficulty and we will assume control but, when the looting starts, the shooting starts. Thank you!

Trump's wordplay had an historically racist undertone:

When the looting starts, the shooting starts,” is a threat coined by Miami Police Chief Walter Headley, who promised violent reprisals on black protesters in 1967. He also said: “We don’t mind being accused of police brutality. They haven’t seen anything yet.”

Twitter marked the president's tweet as 'glorifying violence' but did not remove it.


Early this morning Minnesota State Police had come back to the scene. It arrested a dark skinned CNN reporter in front of the running camera (vid). The reporter had asked the police where they wanted his crew to setup. He did not get a response. No reason for his arrest was given. Another CNN reporter, this one of white color, was also approached by police but was permitted to stay:

CNN's Josh Campell, who also was in the area but not standing with the on-air crew, said he, too, was approached by police, but was allowed to remain.

"I identified myself ... they said, 'OK, you're permitted to be in the area,'" recounted Campbell, who is white. "I was treated much differently than (Jimenez) was."

Jimenez is black and Latino.

After CNN called on the governor the reporter and his crew were released. Here he explained what happened. The police did not apologize to him.

The British government protested against the arrest of the journalists.

There are now public calls for further protests in many more cities. Those are likely to escalate.

Calls for President Xi of China to provide the American rebels with the means to defend themselves against the regime have not yet been answered.

Posted by b on May 29, 2020 at 12:14 UTC | Permalink

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These protests have now spread right around the USA !
I would expect the media have been censoring the sheer enormous scale of anger/outrage the rightminded public of America are feeling now. The killing of George Floyd will be pivotal ! The moment America came to it’s senses, regained its sanity. This provocation will back fire on trump!
The concern is —— There is no political alternative ! That fact right there makes this a powder keg, right now a powder keg is what is needed.
Sorry not sorry.
From the heart.

Posted by: Mark2 | May 29 2020 22:06 utc | 101

Do yourself a favor and read-

"War is a Racket" -Smedley Butler 1933
"Beyond Vietnam - Time to Break the Silence" -MLK 1967
"Art Truth and Politics" -Harold Pinter 2005

What has changed in 100 yrs of uSSa Empire? Foreign policy? Domestic policy?
Economic policy? All have become worse.

The u$$a Regime lies, cheats, steals, rapes, murders, tortures, overthrows, bombs,
invades, destroys, and loots with impunity Global wide.
How a citizen of this Rogue nation can feel good about that is beyond hypocrisy.

This Regime and the humans behind this sickening system must be replaced.
The Military Surveilance Police state must end. The Humans behind this system must be replaced
by any means necessary. Both the safety of the world and domestically rely on their removal.

When finished "Entertaining Ourselves to Death" and coming to terms with the truly Evil nature of the human beings operating and supporting this system- perhaps you will becomea full human being. Get Up Stand Up.

The difference between ignorance and delusions are substantial.
Ignorance being the lack of knowledge. Delusion being the presence of false
knowledge. Where do you stand?

I don't need protection from the police.
But We ALL need protection FROM the police state.
Will you fight to defend yourself, your family, your neighbor or fellow human being
against a cruel vile corrupt system? Selfishness and greed are no excuse for complacency.
What is worth defending- your property or your virtues?

I have long been disgusted by the u$$a regimes domestic and foreign policies. Which means I have long been disgusted by my fellow citizens (human beings) which support and operate this vile system.

Complacency and passive complicit citizens Or values, humaneness and justice?

Where do you stand? When do you stand for a meaningful life of society?

Posted by: CitizenX | May 29 2020 22:10 utc | 102

Surely China will show the world soon again how to deal properly with civil unrest and race issues too? b? Hello?

Posted by: John Dowser | May 29 2020 22:13 utc | 103

Posted by: rexl | May 29 2020 20:18 utc | 78

Are you implying there isn't a racial motivation behind the murder?Come on..Chauvin is a shitty white suprematist ("make whites great again"-hat he proudly wore on pics" what does it mean?).and like him are most of the blue pigs..Another black innocent has been brutally killed that's the evident truth.You surely know that most americans into firearms are white-rural minds so your stats means nothing..If you try to defend white men from an imaginary prejudice..well you are totally out of history.

Posted by: LuBa | May 29 2020 22:14 utc | 104

Kaddath writes:
You can't be a Democracy at home and an empire aboard, the violence of empire will always turn against the very idea of democracy.

Yes, a keen observation of what ultimately undid Athens. You will find in Sheldon Wolin's final book "Democracy Incorporated" an intricate dissection of this precept in the modern form through his analysis of America's decaying trajectory. Thank you for reminding us of this.

Posted by: Norogene | May 29 2020 22:19 utc | 105

The white working and lower middle classes will not support violent rioting by blacks over a black issue. This is not a way to start a revolution.

What's more, the latest reporting I read in the Washington Post is that Floyd initially resisted arrest. The early reporting that he did not resist arrest was apparently incorrect.

Moreover, the medical evidence suggests that he died not from asphyxiation or a broken neck, but because of comorbidities.

Floyd had a lengthy criminal record.

If you want a revolution in the U.S., wait a month or two until there are mass evictions.

Posted by: lysias | May 29 2020 22:24 utc | 106

Unicorn Riot Twitter is quite active as one would expect. Several interesting facts gleaned from a quick scroll--funding for public schools in the vicinity was curtailed so the 3rd Precinct Building that was torched could be built, so we know the motive for that act of arson. Illegal Collusion:

"We were the first to uncover the existence of the ‘Northern Lights Task Force’, an inter-agency Minnesota police project coordinating with pipeline employees to prepare to repress indigenous and environmental protesters concerned about #Line3"

From what I read, it's very clear the entire investigation of Floyd's execution will need to be closely monitored by citizen groups like Unicorn Riot. Very pleased to learn of their existence and activities.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 29 2020 22:27 utc | 107

It seems that the revolution will not happen after all, just has been declared curfew...

This is a warning to anybody who would dare to revolt against the coming misery conditions of life while the oligarchs continue enriching themselves and looting every penny available.

This is a secondary gain from the pandemic, as we were accustomed to multiple declared state of alarm throughout the world, they thinks that going a step further would not cause any shock....

There have been equally violent revolts in France and Chile continuously during the past year, and in France again in the banlieus, and then curfew was not declared...

This is the land of the free....There you have your fascist state turning on yourselves...
When they came for the Venezuelans, seized their assets and embassies, I did nothing; when they came for the Iranians and murdered Soleimani, I said nothing; when they came for the communists in the Odessa House of Unions, I did not move a finger; when they slaughtered people at the four cardinal points of the world, I did continue living my "American Dream" as if the thing would not go with me...until I did awaken to find myself in the same nightmare....

Do you think that were not for the riots of the last nights, Chauvin would had been detained and charged?

Posted by: H.Schmatz | May 29 2020 22:30 utc | 108

What killed democracy in Athens was military defeat by Macedon in the Lamian War in 322 BC, not anything domestic. And even that defeat did not kill Athenian democracy for good. It kept coming back throughout the Hellenistic period. It was left to Sulla to kill Athenian democracy for good in 86 BC.

Posted by: lysias | May 29 2020 22:31 utc | 109

lysias @ 106
Oh come on you’l have to try harder than that, next you’l be telling us he died of covid! Your convoluted justification is an insult to this blog in my opinion.
But thanks for the insight into all that is wrong with America and the western world ———
Lack of respect for truth and reality.

Posted by: Mark2 | May 29 2020 22:36 utc | 110

Moreover, the medical evidence suggests that he died not from asphyxiation or a broken neck, but because of comorbidities.

Posted by: lysias | May 29 2020 22:24 utc | 106

Do not you think that the alibi of "comorbidities" has got quite worn out during the pandemic by the abuse of Trumpsters deniers?

We, around the world, have witnessed a robust 45 years old big man being asfixoated to death on the asphalt by the kneeling on his neck by a white cop for a total 8 minutes, highly likely KKK member.

if he had not been susch robust man or would have had "comorbidities" he would not have stayed alive so long....

His criminal record does not in any way aleviate one iota the fact that he was handcuffed, then inmovilized by four men kneeling on the whole longitude of his body, to then being murdered willingly by the one kneeling on his neck for 8 minutes, while the four ignored his and of the civilian people around repeated claims for breathing and denied the oblied assistance.

Posted by: H.Schmatz | May 29 2020 22:49 utc | 111

I've suggested in the past that civil war was unlikely in the US because that would requires a significant percentage of the electorate to actually take sides and shoot someone - and most of the population is so anti-gun these days that such a scenario was unlikely, especially over political issues that aren't usually considered as *directly* adversely affecting most of the population, at least in their minds. It would also require some direct organization on both sides and I don't see anyone capable of that on the national scene.

What I can easily see happening, however, is the sort of multi-city, large-scale rioting that occurred in the Sixties and in other parts of the world, leading to a declaration of martial law in at least some, possibly many, larger cities, if not nation-wide (a lot of rural areas would likely not be affected.) Economic issues and issues of social repression are usually the causes of large-scale violence historically in most countries. Most "political" issues usually boil down to either ethnic or economic or repression issues.

The US doesn't have really that much ethnic issues, except in the Southwest over Latino immigration. The US has racial, economic and repression issues, however. Most of the time they just simmer, with local limited outbreaks of violence. But in cases of blatant repression, or under severe economic pressure, they can explode into wider-scale violence.

And we've got both on the horizon. The impact of the pandemic (and the government's clueless response, thanks to Trump and previous Presidents) on the economy is likely to produce extreme economic pressure, especially on the middle class and the poor. Adding the extreme militarization of the US police over the last several decades, and this is a recipe for large-scale violence that continues for more than a few days or a week. Once police over-reaction and the appearance of the National Guard to control rioting results in the sort of deaths like in the well-known Kent State incident, then like in Ukraine we could start to see cops and National Guard fatalities from snipers. Next we could see things like the 1985 Philadelphia police bombing of the MOVE headquarters and the use of armed drones (Connecticut has a law banning armed drones - but not for police.) The next step beyond that is curfew, and the next step beyond that is martial law.

The next step beyond that is not civil war - it's explicit fascism. And that ends in revolution - which then usually recycles into either more fascism or "modified: fascism (see France in the 1800's.)

Bottom line: It's not going to get better. One of the many things preppers have been warning against is national repression. They warned against natural disasters like hurricanes and no one listened until Katrina. They warned against pandemics and no one listened - until today. They've been warning against national repression - like the Selco article I linked to. Better listen this time.

The US government has been preparing for some time:
Pentagon preparing for mass civil breakdown

Maybe you should: How To Prepare for Civil Unrest: 30 Steps You Can Take Now

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 29 2020 22:50 utc | 112

james #56

Pat Lang is a bigoted turd. Why are you staring at it and why invite us to do same? Peculiar.

Any way on the main issue: where are the white helmets? I guess if I were there I would grab a white helmet and a yellow vest and make a parody arm badge to wear. The logo?

"What's good for Aleppo is good for America".

Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 29 2020 22:51 utc | 113

@ 113 uncle t.... i was passing on a message and shared where i got it from... you can do the fuck what you want, if you haven't figured that out yet...

@ lysias - you could get a gig as a court judge in the usa.. you have all the right stuff...

Posted by: james | May 29 2020 23:01 utc | 114

lysias @ 109
A variety of scholars who study that period would disagree with you: You cannot maintain an empire abroad and democracy at home. The two principles are diametrically opposite to one another. It's what caused the democracy of Athens (which was limited to men -- as usual) to ultimately lose its internal cohesion and reason to be. Yes, formally it was incorporated into the Macedonian empire, but its demise came because Athens' imperial ambitions sapped domestic resources which further contributed to the trend toward inequality within the society. Here is a fine quote from Wolin's book (page 264) which illustrates the point (please excuse the length of this quote):

A twofold moral might be drawn from the experience of Athens: that it is self-subverting for democracy to subordinate its egalitarian convictions to the pursuit of expansive politics with its corollaries of conquest and domination and the power relationships they introduce. Few care to argue that, in political terms, democracy at home is advanced or improved by conquest abroad. As Athens showed and the United States of the twenty-first century confirmed, imperialism undercuts democracy by furthering inequalities among its citizens. Resources that might be used to improve health care, education, and environmental protection are instead directed to defense spending, which, by far, con- sumes the largest percentage of the nation’s annual budget. Moreover, the sheer size and complexity of imperial power and the expanded role of the military make it difficult to impose fiscal discipline and account- ability. Corruption becomes endemic, not only abroad but at home. The most dangerous type of corruption for a democracy is measured not in monetary terms alone but in the kind of ruthless power relations it fosters in domestic politics. As many observers have noted, politics has become a blood sport with partisanship and ideological fidelity as the hallmarks. A partisan judiciary is openly declared to be a major priority of a political party; the efforts to consolidate executive power and to relegate Congress to a supporting role are to some important degree the retrojection inwards of the imperial thrust.

Second, if Athens was the first historical instance of a confrontation between democracy and elitism, that experience suggests that there is no simple recipe for resolving the tensions between them. Political elites were a persistent, if uneasy and contested, feature of Athenian democracy and a significant factor in both its expansion and its demise. In the eyes of contemporary observers, such as Thucydides, as well as later historians, the advancement of Athenian hegemony de- pended upon a public-spirited, able elite at the helm and a demos will- ing to accept leadership. Conversely, the downfall of Athens was attributed to the wiles and vainglory of leaders who managed to whip up popular support for ill-conceived adventures. As the war dragged on and frustration grew, domestic politics became more embittered and fractious: members of the elite competed to outbid each other by pro- posing ever wilder schemes of conquest. In two attempts (411–410 and 404–403) elites, abetted by the Spartans, succeeded in temporarily abol- ishing democracy and installing rule by the Few.

...and while I am at it: lysias @ 106

Let's deconstruct what you've said. Even if he resisted arrest (by what degree was he resisting?) that is not cause for applying deadly force on someone. Clearly he was restrained and was going no where. Furthermore, the application of restraint should be one that ought not induce death in someone with a previous health condition. By your rationale, you have no business of walking the streets if you are not an able-bodied person and that death by restraint by a police officer is excusable if you happen to be in bad health.

Although you don't explicitly say it, somehow it feels like you are saying that he had it coming to him when you write "Floyd had a lengthy criminal record." Does that mean just because he had a lengthy record he deserved to be roughed up like that? This sounds like victim blaming, which is something commonly done in this country to continue to oppress people who have no power.

Posted by: Norogene | May 29 2020 23:02 utc | 115

@Lysias, the store owner who called the police on Floyd explicitly states that he didn't resist arrest. And he's got the videotape of violent encounter to back up his claim.

Regarding issue of looting and american public support of possible rebellion,if that's the case. What's the prevailing reason amongst whites for adopting such a stance ? For as I recall, the United States itself is the by byproduct of looting, theft, genocide and criminal enterprise. Several Dakota and Sioux organizations of Minnesota issued statements supporting rebellion and siding with those you portray as criminals. Segment of american public you speak of has no standing when it comes to moral high ground and respectability. Maybe it takes a looter to know one ?

Posted by: Sol Invictus | May 29 2020 23:10 utc | 116

Open the valves, let the steam blow until things quiet down, til the next round. Or not. One can hope..

Posted by: Lozion | May 29 2020 23:11 utc | 117

Re: 106 Lysias,

More videos have been released showing Floyd being arrested and escorted out of the store. At all times he complies with the officers' commands and doesn't resist. Even while being strangled to death by the police officer he didn't resist, he simply begged the officer to stop strangling him. There's simply no evidence indicating that the officer's actions were reasonable. Even if he had resisted arrest (which he did not), there was a 7 minute period of Floyd being passive while the officer strangled him to death (which was videotaped and you can watch the whole thing) this is a clear case of murder. The officer had numerous opportunities to asset the situation and reduce the amount of force he was applying (officers are supposed to do this). Lastly, if we feel like bring up prior bad acts, the officer who murdered Floyd was the subject of several complaint regarding excessive force and abuse (and at least one death). This looks more and more like a case of a psycho cop given a free reign to indulge his murderous urges by his superiors against poor people, but he made the mistake of getting caught on tape. The real question is, will he face justice or will he walk?

Posted by: Kadath | May 29 2020 23:19 utc | 118

Kadath @ 118

And there is the unfortunate truth. Two tiers of justice and two tiers of standards. The one cop has a string of bad acts, but somehow this is excused for no logical reason other than "its part of his job". This reveals a society that has done very little to search and confront within itself its varied contradictions. "It is human to live with contradictions" often people will say. But it is also human to have compassion and love and seek to change what is wrong too.

The racism here is so deep, so ingrained, it's part of one's fabric. It's the quiet invisible crutch that allows people to continue on with all that goes on around them without experiencing cognitive dissonance and system shutdown. It is insidious and lurks in the recesses of most everyone's mind.

Posted by: Norogene | May 29 2020 23:37 utc | 119

@BraveNewWorld #86:

When do the snipers start shooting the people on both sides?

Never. There is no U.S. embassy in the United States.

Posted by: S | May 29 2020 23:50 utc | 120

I read it on reddit that this police officer was outed by his ex wife. She saw the pictures and identified him. People with ex spouses aren’t supposed to do such things.

Posted by: ArmenianGuy | May 29 2020 23:56 utc | 121

Into the night the protests grew and took on a socialist tone when people started to communalize the goods offered at a local Target market known for its extensive survival.

That's a funny way of describing a group of thugs smashing then burning a Target store after stealing every single piece of high price electronics, clothing, jewelry and furniture from a place that had absolutely nothing to do with the murder crime whatsoever. I wonder how the McDonald's was guilty, did its poor working class staff cheer the cop on and celebrate as they lost their only source of income in an economically shaky time?

Are we gonna talk about the "peaceful protesters" who assaulted an old lady in wheelchair by trying to rip her out of it before they cried knife and emptied a fire extinguisher into her face when she tried to defend herself? Or is that just not worth bring up?

You know, I'm tired of this leftist BS, I'm tired of how blacks get a free ride to riot, loot and commit race crimes every goddamn day of the week. None of you seem to give two f**ks whenever blacks commits a drive by shooting that gets a little girl killed or when some teen walks into a place and empties an uzi down a crowded street that leaves several injured and dead.

Brings back memories of the leftist protests in Hamburg against the gathering of the bilderburg group, protests I might add that include burning down working class stores, working class cars, vandalizing working class homes and stealing everything not on fire or nailed down from working class peoples workplaces. (Thank commie pigs for victimizing the working class to protect your overprivileged upper class champagne socialist lifestyle.)

Its almost as if communists and blacks don't care about black lives or police violence but were just looking for an excuse to riot and commit crimes like arson, theft and assault like beating up every white person in sight like they did in Baltimore. Again I already know you don't give a f**k when its a white person since not a single one o you got up in arms over an unarmed Dillon Taylor getting gunned down by a black cop.

But if your endgame is to pull a Charles Manson and kickstart Helter Skelter, well congrats, you are getting your wish. Keep doing this stuff, the more your side rampage and calls for whites to be killed, the more black pilled whites there are with guns and the needed fear to use them preemptively.

Posted by: Mighty Whitey | May 30 2020 0:00 utc | 122

spoken like a true KKK member.....

Posted by: james | May 30 2020 0:05 utc | 123

@122 found the Klan member.

Posted by: dimitrov | May 30 2020 0:06 utc | 124

What are the chances the kneeing of G Floyd was theater?
G Floyd is today sharing a suite somewhere with Jeff Epstein, maybe even Ghislaine.

and that the rioting mob was salted with, um, provocateurs ala Iran 1953?

Oh noes!
Who would do such a thing?

Posted by: EdgerBergen | May 30 2020 0:10 utc | 125

My point was that, if what I read in the Washington Post about Floyd initially resisting arrest is correct -- and the truth is likely to come out in trials of the policemen -- the white working and middle classes will not support a revolution over his killing. My further point was that, if you want a revolution, you should wait a month or two until there are mass evictions.

Posted by: lysias | May 30 2020 0:13 utc | 126

@lysias #106:

Moreover, the medical evidence suggests that he died not from asphyxiation or a broken neck, but because of comorbidities.

Such as the color of his skin.

Posted by: S | May 30 2020 0:14 utc | 127

Richard Steven Hack @ 100

Posted by: EdgerBergen | May 30 2020 0:14 utc | 128

The time of greatest equality for Athens and greatest prosperity for the Athenian poor was the height of Athens's empire, under Pericles. And the Athenian elite hated it, for that very reason. You can read about it in Plato, or in pseudo-Xenophon aka The Old Oligarch.

Just as the best time for the American working and lower middle class was the 30 years after WWII, les trente glorieuses, at the height of the American empire.

It may well be that empire eventually spoiled things for American democracy, by giving too much power to the rich, but Athenian democracy declined and died not because of Athenian empire, but because external forces killed it, military defeat at the hands of greater powers, Macedon and Rome.

Posted by: lysias | May 30 2020 0:26 utc | 129

and now a word from our sponsor...... the president of the United States of mother-fucking
America, Donald the mother-fucking TRUMP!!!!!!!.... let's hear it for the president Folks! ..... on behalf of white American's i would like to personally apologize for the Minneapolis police getting caught on camera killing a purportedly innocent man. Starting tomorrow i am tabling legislation to ban cameras in public places. God-Bless America! Good-night.

Posted by: james | May 30 2020 0:29 utc | 130

White House Under Lockdown Amid 'Justice for Floyd' Protests in Washington, DC! Blame the democrats, no blame the governor Minnesota, no blame the peaceful protesters

Ahaaaa... Blame the Russian, Russian not Russian? Blame the Chinese, Chinese... must be Xi Jinping.... they never invent anything, they steal, they cheat, they lied and now they starts rioting in America..


Posted by: JC | May 30 2020 0:32 utc | 131

Inciting class conflict is providing cover for robbing the bank (Treasury)

Look at that bright shiny thing over there and ignore the jackboot of global private finance on your neck

Posted by: psychohistorian | May 30 2020 0:45 utc | 132

Thinking aboug the phenomenon of catching blacks getting killed by police, I came to a conclusion that the reason whites are not often captured on film getting killed by cops is likely due to the rural/urban divide.

Densely populated cities have both an urban white gentrified population as well as an urban poor black community (often).

Whites who run into trouble with the law usually occur more often in rural areas where whites live in poverty.

Rural areas are often much less densely populated and, as a result, I posit that instances of police brutality go often unrecorded.

I posit that blacks being in densely populated urban areas have a much greater chance of having their interaction recorded by bystanders than whites in rural areas who are having trouble with the police.

That and the fact that because whites occupy a presumed priveleged status in modern America, this leaves their chances of having the same exposure as blacks when it comes to police brutality virtually nil.

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | May 30 2020 0:46 utc | 133

Many of you I presume have little to no interaction with poverty and its effects. Coming to MoA, you are all probably mostly college grads who had sheltered upbringings, and if you did dabble in the seedier aspects of life, my guess is that you did it with a safety net of well-off parents to back you up.

Let me tell you that poverty and police interactions don't mix very well.

If someone is already feeling like a caged animal, drowning, and struggling for breath in a modern, consumer driven society where what you own determines how comfortable you are psychologically, it is no wonder that police are often very much on guard when they encounter inner-city blacks who, on top of having very little breathing room, now has go wonder why the po' is coming down on them when they got nothing.


I witness poverty daily, and I can tell you that it is a mixed-bag as to what feelings it evokes in the viewer.

Part of me finds their situation detestable and self-caused. As a person who believes in free will, how can anyone be 100% sure of victim-hood? You can't and seeing the lack of parenting, the stench of death which comes from poverty, it is enough to make you gag and thank heavens you are on the other side.

What am I getting at here?

There has been many studies done looking at police brutality and shootings. Black officers kill whites and blacks. White officers kill whites and blacks. But dealing with urban blacks is no cakewalk and probably the hardest beat in policing bar none.

Anyone been to Baltimore lately or south-side Chicago. Didn't think so.

Bring these cops to justice, that is fine. But their faces...pure evil? I think not.

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | May 30 2020 1:05 utc | 134

re Nemesiscalling | May 29 2020 16:07 utc | 44
As I pointed out in the open thread, police treatment of and brutality towards people with psychiatric illnesses is unfortunately common around the world. Still so, whereas the incidences of death by copper for unwhite people around the world has declined in most countries but not amerika.
The fact that police ill-treatment/murder of people in a psychotic episode doesn't cause as much of a public reaction as when an african american is killed is irrelevant. The sad reality is that for the most part those who can be psychotic simply lack the organisations to defend themselves that african americans have fought to put together.
Which is not to say that there haven't been protests when someone who is ill gets killed. From memory at least one of the most recent (during the time of Black Lives Matter) death of an unwhite citizen at the hands of the police also had a psychiatric illness.

Schizophrenics and others prone to psychotic episodes and unwhite citizens are both at much greater risk of being killed by a cop than a 'normal' whitefella but double diagnosis citizens such as an unwhite who has a psychiatric illness are at least doubly so.

If one particular group of people who are subject to police brutality don't stir national outrage when the cops kill them, that doesn't mean there is some fault with a group who do make an issue out of a comrade's death.

What it means is that amerikans need to put a lot more effort into raising awareness of the issues faced by the first group, in this case people with psychiatric illness.
Every death of a citizen at the hands of the police should be regarded as the fault of individual police or the police as a whole because there is no necessity for it to occur, even instances where someone is directly threatening the life of an officer and gets shot is an indication of law enforcement failure because there are non-lethal alternatives not utilised.

There is also a weird hook up between the armaments industry & police shootings.

Since my idiot brother a tv journo, was enjoined by the then boss of the policeman's union in Aotearoa to run a campaign for all kiwi cops to carry a handgun, and the campaign succeeded the incidence of people killed by coppers has skyrocketed. So has the instances of crims carrying guns.

It is worth noting that the two coppers who brought down the arsehole Christchurch mosque butcher, did so without guns. There was footage of the unarmed takedown on the web shortly after it happened, but that no longer seems to be available, all the available vids now show the prick being held down while other armed coppers late to the scene surround them pointing guns. afaik the pair of off duty (they had come to town for a training course) coppers who performed the unarmed arrest haven't been awarded honours.

Yes it is in the interests of elites to keep us divided, but that doesn't mean we must ignore these police shooting outrages, what is required is concerted effort to raise awareness among amerika's whitefellas that being scared of another human just because he/she is a different colour, is palpably stupid. It is mostly fright that causes this race hatred in amerika.
Over the course of my existence I have noticed that the most racist of humans are those who have had the least amount of contact with other races.

Posted by: A User | May 30 2020 1:07 utc | 135

psychohistorian @132--

Well, The Class War's been ongoing for 3,000 years, and the US Treasury's undergone a continuous robbing since 1913. We both know and agree the #1 enemy are the Financial Parasites wherever they may reside along with their Neoliberal Doctrine. Friedman, Reagan and Thatcher are all dead, so we can't try them for their crimes, but weren't they merely carrying out the wishes of those who put them into office? Aren't those Parasites the ones we need to deal with?

Just finished watching Four Horsemen, which asks the right questions in its closing 10 minutes if you don't have the time to watch all 90.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 30 2020 1:07 utc | 136

Nice satire, B.
I thought it was odd that the saboteur was carrying an umbrella, just like in Hong Kong.

Posted by: wagelaborer | May 30 2020 1:08 utc | 137

Super depressing. Murder at the hands of authority. Evidence of agent provocateurs. All because someone is said to have used a counterfeit $20. Super super depressed. Jen mentioned that the victim was additionally a musician. The link below is to a you tube video of him on a DJ Screw release. Chopped and screwed is a branch of music that is from Houston Texas. It has gained a lot of recognition lately. If anyone is interested, there is a Netflix show about rap/hip hop available now. Episode four discusses chopped and screwed.
Big Floyd and DJ Screw
Big up to Jen for the music reference. I also appreciate her mentioning metal in a thread a few weeks back. Indeed many of the metal community are one human band loners raging against the whatever.
RIP Big Floyd. RIP Screw. I need to find me some purple drank. S*** is 'bout to go down here in USA. God help us all.
And ZH reported that Chauvin(ist) worked with Mr. Floyd at a club in Milwaukee. Too weird. I have no idea what to make of any of this.
Black umbrellas...

Posted by: lex talioinis | May 30 2020 1:17 utc | 138

The idea that the guy with umbrella is a cop is unproven at this point.

Posted by: ferretmania | May 30 2020 1:20 utc | 139


nice to see you comment, it's been awhile. I get what you're saying, you are trying to be realistic and objective while emotions are running hot. I appreciate that.

I've been spending some time in the true crime arena, specifically binge-listening to the Opperman Report archives. he had a journalist on, Stephen Jimenez, who wrote a book on the Matthew Shepherd case that exposed how NOT a hate crime it was, and how cynical political forces coopted the narrative for ulterior purposes. during the interview they also discussed big problems with the Trayvon Martin case.

please note I am not saying any of this to downplay what is happening now, nor to deny people the strong emotions they are experiencing.

Posted by: lizard | May 30 2020 1:20 utc | 140

The two oligarchic episodes in Athens during and just after the Peloponnesian War, each just a few months, were both succeeded by a restoration of democracy. The following nearly a century, until Athens's defeat in the Lamian War in 322, was the classical period of Athenian democracy. It was the period of orators like Lysias and Demosthenes. You can read about it in Mogen Hansen's book about Athenian democracy in that period.

Posted by: lysias | May 30 2020 1:29 utc | 141

I'm genuinely curious why many people in the comments have been calling out the piece as satire ("this reads like/must be satire") or even been strongly offended by it. It seems to be a fairly straight description of what happened, except for the last sentence.

Posted by: Eric | May 30 2020 1:29 utc | 142

Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 29 2020 22:51 utc | 113 "What's good for Aleppo is good for America".

LOL Excellent. You win the thread.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 30 2020 1:32 utc | 143

Posted by: S | May 29 2020 23:50 utc | 120 Never. There is no U.S. embassy in the United States.

Or maybe you win the thread. You and Uncle Tungsten fight it out. :-)

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 30 2020 1:36 utc | 144

Posted by: lysias | May 30 2020 0:26 utc | 129 military defeat at the hands of greater powers, Macedon and Rome.

And we're headed for that, too. China will outspend us on WMDs and both Russia and China will design better WMDs than ours. You can count on that.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 30 2020 1:40 utc | 145

If China and Russia defeat us, they may allow us to have some form of democracy.

My favorite form of democracy would be what the Athenians had, with representatives and most officials chosen by lot from the whole citizen body.

Posted by: lysias | May 30 2020 1:49 utc | 146

George Floyd speaks

Posted by: lex talionis | May 30 2020 2:03 utc | 147

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | May 30 2020 0:46 utc | 133 Whites who run into trouble with the law usually occur more often in rural areas where whites live in poverty.

Having been in Federal prison, I can tell you that there are five classes of Federal prisoners:

1) Urban blacks.
2) Urban Latinos.
3) White Urban Thugs.
4) White Rural Rednecks.
5) White Middle- and Upper-Class Professionals.

And a smattering of Asians, Native Americans, and foreigners, and perhaps some other statistically insignificant sorts.

Class 5 are a very small minority. By far 95% of the prisoners in Federal custody are in the first four classes. Their common characteristics are poor, badly educated, stupid, and malicious. Probably 75-85% are in for drugs - either using or selling. 75% of bank robber are robbing banks to either buy drugs or get money to buy drugs to sell them. I was an exception - I was robbing banks to get money to buy weapons and other resources to bury the people who run this country. If it wasn't for the "War on Drugs", most of these guys would be stealing hubcaps and robbing liquor stores. They aren't smart enough to do anything else.

That's it. That's American crime on the Federal level. On the state level, you can add in your rapists, your burglars, your muggers, your armed robbers who stick up liquor stores, etc. All of whom, I guarantee you, are in the same classes and do crime for the same reasons (although maybe more rapists are middle-class since sex crosses demographic lines, I don't know.)

"Rural areas are often much less densely populated and, as a result, I posit that instances of police brutality go often unrecorded."

No one wants to offend the local sheriff in small towns. Rural redneck sheriffs in this country are a standing joke in the movies because they're real.

"I posit that blacks being in densely populated urban areas have a much greater chance of having their interaction recorded by bystanders than whites in rural areas who are having trouble with the police."

Keep in mind that ghetto blacks *do* have serious behavioral problems, both in terms of tendency to commit crimes and tendency to be unable to interact with white authority figures or any authority figures for that matter. This is the result of generations of racism. On an individual level, ghetto blacks can be hostile, impatient, massively ignorant of what constitutes "acceptable behavior", and a variety of other personality issues. Again, this is the result of generations of racism.

I have interacted with ghetto blacks on a daily basis for at least the last thirty years. I have lived in areas and buildings where a significant proportion of the residents were black, and I was in prison for nine years with them. Trust me when I say that many, if not most (and certainly not all), of these people have serious social interaction problems as a result of the same characteristics as the prisoners I described above. I've gotten along with some, but I expend effort to avoid most, because my daily observations have proven to me that many (again, not necessarily most - I am not a statistician - or all) have extremely bad outcomes in interactions with each other, let alone white people.

That, of course, does not justify using excessive police force against someone who merely bad-mouths them. Cops are supposed to be "professionals" (not that they ever have been in history in any country that I'm aware of - even including Japan whose prisons I have read are extremely bad). But the US population has been conditioned from school years to "trust Officer Friendly" - along with stupid cop shows like "Adam-12" and others which either show cops violating people's rights with impunity - to condition people to accept that as "normal" because "they're only criminals" - or show cops as "nice guys". Then there's the old "a few bad apples" schtick - which was disproven in New York back in the Seventies when it was proven that *every* cop in New York was on the take, plus the vast string of thuggish behavior recorded over the past thirty years. And again, the over-militarization of police forces everywhere (even some small town I read about got an armored military vehicle from the Feds.)

I occasionally read articles in Police Magazine - one of the main publications for cops. They *always* take the side of the cops in these matters. There is a "cop mentality" which is an "us vs them" mentality - and "we is us", to paraphrase the comic strips.

I'm always careful to read reports of police misuse of force carefully, because as having some knowledge of police procedures, some knowledge of combat firearms use, and the like, and what is reasonable use of force in terms of self-defense whether one is a cop or not, a lot of times people don't get the view of the cop who views himself as under threat or to what degree the cop might actually have been under threat. They assume, for example, that if a cop shoots a guy with a knife who is thirty feet away it's a clear case of over-reaction (it's not, a knife-wielder is a threat at least out to 21 feet, as has been proven in tests by cops and martial artists.)

But that didn't apply in the Rodney King case, and from what I'm seeing in the Floyd case, it doesn't apply here. Hopefully the facts will come out in court and the cop will go to jail. Except he'll probably be put in isolation, so no one can shank him. Sucks for him to be isolated, but he deserves worse.

Of course, the problem then is that the remaining cops will take it out on blacks on the street even more than they do now.

Because it's the *system*, not just one cop. And the *system* is not just so-called "law enforcement" or even the economic "system" (which is what cops *really* "enforce"). It's the whole society-state system (which is also what cops *really* enforce). And in the end, as I've said before, that deconstructs down to the "human system." Which, unfortunately, is no "system" at all - just a mass of emotional brain biochemistry distorted by delusions and fear.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 30 2020 2:27 utc | 148

lysias @ 129

It may well be that empire eventually spoiled things for American democracy, by giving too much power to the rich, but Athenian democracy declined and died not because of Athenian empire, but because external forces killed it, military defeat at the hands of greater powers, Macedon and Rome.

Sure! Then we should say that Athens was the victim after it was itself a victimizer? So there was nothing about running a state of near continuous war having anything to do with undermining the efficient working of its internal democratic politics? Wolin says a little bit more about this just after that passage (page 247):

In order to cope with the imperial contingencies of foreign war and occupation, democracy will alter its character, not only by assuming new behaviors abroad (e.g., ruthlessness, indifference to suffering, disregard of local norms, the inequalities in ruling a subject population) but also by operating on revised, power-expansive assumptions at home. It will, more often than not, try to manipulate the public rather than engage its members in deliberation.

After Pericles bites the dust, the squabbling that took place amongst those vying for power resulted in a bunch of people thinking that invading Sicily would be a good idea for prestige (ratings) and purse. We know how that all ended -- which ultimately precipitated the beginning of the end for Athens culminating with its final defeat to Sparta.

I am certain that the complexities of internal politics was probably no simpler than the motives that drive politics today: the power to control people and finances. All of that comes with undermining democracy. Readings from the time, including Thucydides' accounts, indicate that this happened in Athens in much the same way it is happening now.

Once again, I think neither your nor my analysis constitutes a singular truth of the matter. My point is that Athens was busy fighting wars which exasperated the internal functioning of its own society. Also, by being an empire you are constantly fighting with others, which sucks your resources. This is the point historians like Wolin are trying to make (who himself was historian of Classical Greece).

Athens had its own struggles with the elite who eventually reemerged atop of the system by the time their system had reached the end of the road.

Just saying and you don't have to agree. There are no unique interpretations when assessing the trajectories of ancient empires. The observations, nonetheless, are valuable in and of themselves and certainly relevant for today. Thanks again to Kadath.

Posted by: Norogene | May 30 2020 2:28 utc | 149

Minnesota's 5th Congressional district Rep.Ilhan Omar came from Mogadishu but mentally hardly left from there. Aggressive Islam propagation close to the Canadian border made so much sense for local/regional communal harmony...

Imagine the reverse happened in Somalia....

Posted by: Antonym | May 30 2020 2:34 utc | 150

George Floyd died Monday. Monday night protests began, cops fired on protesters with tear gas, rubber bullets,
people called for arrest of 4 police that murdered Floyd.

Wednesday 2 men shot in the head with rubber bullets more tear gas no cop arrests.

2 shot at a pawn shop near 3rd Precinct building, 1 dead, shooter arrested (not a cop but pawn shop connected)

Predator Drone 20K feet over Minneapolis St Paul usually used on the NoDak/MN/Canada border.

Only 500 Nation Guard mobilized the rest in Middle East killing for the empire.

George Floyd and cop Derek Chavin both worked security at a Minneapolis night club
Was this murder because of that?

Partial list of burned/looted businesses/apartments

Some homes broken into in St. Paul Cathedral Hill district.

Protests/damage/looting were not just a few blocks but many miles long, spanned N. to S. and East to West in St. Paul and included some suburbs. Not just a few areas but many.

Many media shot with rubber bullets.

May 26 (day George Floyd died) Minnesota National Guard had members posting racist social media postings.

Posted by: Johnny Law | May 30 2020 2:35 utc | 151

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | May 30 2020 1:05 utc | 134 I witness poverty daily

As do I - especially since I am poor. Not as poor as some people in my building - I do get some retirement income - but poor nonetheless.

"Part of me finds their situation detestable and self-caused."

Some of it is. But as I said above, that was caused from generations of racism. There's a limit to "free will", if you're hammered from infancy.

"But dealing with urban blacks is no cakewalk and probably the hardest beat in policing bar none."

True, as I indicated above.

"Anyone been to Baltimore lately or south-side Chicago. Didn't think so."

I've been to similar places in San Francisco - or rather, I avoid those places, like Hunter's Point. But I live in the Tenderloin, often considered the worst neighborhood - but the most residents here are Vietnamese since the Vietnam war ended, not blacks or Latinos - but the percentage is growing.

"Bring these cops to justice, that is fine. But their faces...pure evil? I think not."

OTOH, consider the cops involved in that New York case where they sodomized a black guy with a broomstick inside the police station. I saw a video of those guys. Those guys were straight-out white Italian thugs. They could have been members of the Mafia.

As many people have noted in the past, the difference between a criminal and a cop is that cops wear badges and are legally allowed to carry guns. I really don't think that most people who become cops do so because they want to "protect and serve." Maybe some do at the beginning, but after being in the "system" for a while they become jaded and corrupted - or they leave. I think most people who become cops do so because they have an inferiority complex or a fear that they can't compete in "the real world" - so they join a militarized organization where they have authority and get to carry a gun with more or less impunity. Everyone has probably run across a security guard with the same authoritarian attitude at some point - it's the same mentality.

I saw a lot of different correctional officers while in Federal prison. Some made an effort to be professional and fair in their dealings with inmates, a lot were complete assholes who enjoyed pushing inmates around and making things worse for inmates. And some were simply brutal thugs who were capable of killing an inmate who got in their faces - as has happened. A lot of them were "down-sized military" - ex-military who were down-sized in the '80's and '90's because they were too dumb to ever be promoted in the military.

A lot of cops are ex-military, too. I watch a lot of Youtube videos from preppers and firearms people who are ex-military or ex-police, and they almost all have the same authoritarian attitude and political views. They may have good information, but their personal political philosophies are anathema to me.

Again, it's the "system" that produces "evil" cops. But anyone who joins an "evil" system is either woefully uninformed - or they prefer such a system, consciously or subconciously.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 30 2020 2:45 utc | 152

Posted by: wagelaborer | May 30 2020 1:08 utc | 137 I thought it was odd that the saboteur was carrying an umbrella, just like in Hong Kong.

Was it open? If so, protection (to some degree) against security cameras recording his face (most cameras are up high and angled downward.) If not, an umbrella is a useful impact weapon if someone tried to stop him, without having to draw a firearm and actually kill someone which would be very bad for OPSEC for the cops.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 30 2020 2:52 utc | 153

Posted by: lysias | May 30 2020 1:49 utc | 146 My favorite form of democracy would be what the Athenians had, with representatives and most officials chosen by lot from the whole citizen body.

That's definitely better than having crony officials appointed by corrupt leaders who were vetted by oligarchs and then elected by morons .

I used to be inclined to prefer the Situationist International concept of "workers councils" with direct democracy provided by technology (so the issue of managing voting on every little thing can be dealt with.)

Now, however, I recognize that *no* form of social organization is ever going to be effective or efficient until human nature is "fixed."

And quoting Percival Rose again, "That ain't gonna happen."

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 30 2020 2:57 utc | 154

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 30 2020 2:57 utc | 153/4

The open umbrella also seemed like it was meant to bring attention to him by those around him. Was he real Antifa or just some cutout facsimile of Antifa?

I think left to the people, there would be no predominant desire to pursue empire in which case democracy has a fighting chance (excuse the awful pun). But, of course, you need to protect your country which means maintaining a defense force. These are tools that are often used for gain. It's the age old struggle.

Human nature certainly needs some kind of evolution. Of course I don't think that all people are always out for themselves only, its just that it takes a handful of the sociopaths to set the ship a sail toward things that aren't too savory.

Posted by: Norogene | May 30 2020 3:09 utc | 155

@ Richard Steven Hack

Thank you for the excellent posts. Informative and I can't seem to question anything you share.

You were into some Weather-Underground shit, huh?

Yes, anger arises in those who are left behind and can't hack the pace of the modern world or can't fit in its socialized ways.

"Of course, the problem then is that the remaining cops will take it out on blacks on the street even more than they do now."

I completely agree. This event is going to dial back progress and if nothing else, we will get more BLM-stuff all over again on the news outlets at a level not unlike Russiagate, etc. Settle in, everybody.

Good cops will continue to either a) abandon their profession because they wish not to be associated with it and the stress of the coming years, or b) fall prey to fear and anxiety which will bring them into a more fascistic mindset.

Both warring parties are very much in the wrong. The failure to stop, think, and dialogue is going to make it rough.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | May 30 2020 3:26 utc | 156

List of cities rioting:

Its all over the place..

Posted by: Lozion | May 30 2020 3:28 utc | 157

@ Posted by: Nemesiscalling | May 30 2020 1:05 utc | 134

Well, it seems those protesters don't agree with you.

There's another - very macabre - twist in the American racial polarization: the fact that, in the USA, blacks are indeed a tiny minority.

In Latin America, there's a lot of racism against blacks. But the white supremacists (who, in Latin America, are more identified with their European lineage than race itself) there don't realistically think about exterminating all the blacks. It is simply not feasible for the simple fact that blacks make (with the exception of Argentina, China and Uruguay) 50%-90% of their populations. Instead, Latin American white supremacism prefer the route of "keeping the blacks down", i.e. as second-class citizens (no right to study, to occupy higher offices in the government etc. etc.), with only "disciplinary extermination", to settle the example.

In the USA, however, white supremacism indeed did the math, and they indeed think a complete extermination of the blacks is feasible and entirely on the table. It a whole world of difference between losing 50% of your entire population and losing 15%. They simply think they can do it.

This eugenic aspect of American white supremacism elevates racial tension in the USA to another level. Blacks now must always live alert: when will the next "attack" come? From where it will come? What are the chances I come back alive today? This is specially dramatic for the fact that white supremacism is an underground, decentralized movement.

Blacks in Latin America know they have, ultimately, security in numbers. Blacks in the USA don't have that. As a result, direct violence is always on the table, anywhere, anytime.

Posted by: vk | May 30 2020 3:40 utc | 158

Posted by: Dr Wellington Yueh | May 29 2020 21:59 utc | 97

Note to peaceful protestors: CAPTURE THE PROVOCATEUR!!!!!

If you see somebody doing this shit, don't wag your finger at him, get that fucker and firmly-but-peacefully eject him from the crowd.

But before you let him go - for posterity, grab his ID and his BADGE!

Posted by: farm ecologist | May 30 2020 3:44 utc | 159

re Norogene | May 30 2020 3:09 utc | 155
"But, of course, you need to protect your country which means maintaining a defense force. " Yet I cannot think of a single instance of a conflict amerika has gotten into that wasn't a case of amerika kicking off the action with some particularly egregious act.
eg On the instances I have raised this with amerikans, many have told me they consider Pearl Harbour to be an instance of amerika being the innocent party, they had no idea that FDR had instigated a blockade of Japan long before which was starving Japanese people or that Pearl Harbour wasn't amerikan soil, it was an illegally occupied nation and the Japanese attack had been careful to only bomb and strafe the occupying force.
No nation needs a defense force if the true will of the citizens of a country was what steered that nation, since as you said, most humans the world over prefer to live and let live.

When I worked as a public servant it took me about 5 seconds to suss that those bureaucrats promoting change didn't have a real interest in change apart from the opportunity for promotion change can promote.

This is equally true of war, the arseholes arguing for getting into conflicts do so only for the opportunities for personal benefit conflicts create. Since no war has ever advantaged the masses it is safe to say left up to the people, no wars would always be their first preference.

Posted by: A User | May 30 2020 3:47 utc | 160

I had a dear friend, actually someone who I loved deeply, who for a time lived at the Y on Turk at Leavenworth in the Tenderloin. Last time I was in SF things were a lot better. Or maybe not. I really appreciate your take on things and see things your way. B, please delete if you want. It means nothing aside from human communication.

Posted by: lex talionis | May 30 2020 3:49 utc | 161

Thank you George Floyd. RIP.

Two fascist thugs were holding an unarmed, cuffed black man down while the third pressed his knee on his neck depriving him of oxygen, and the fourth fascist thug stood there and watched a murder in progress and let it happen.

Today Dr. Cornel West called Trump a Neofascist and called the Biden side the Neoliberal wing of the Democratic Party and America a failed social experiment, and Obama and other black politicians, black faces in high places losing legitimacy...

Understated brilliance. (You'll have to scroll down on RealClear site to get the video)

Cornel West

One more thing. This is good:

separate but unequal

If the Trump era begets revolution, my hopes will be fulfilled.
China and Iran should stoke this revolt against fascism fire in U.S.

The status quo is unsustainable.

(Cornel calls Trump the Neofascist gangster; I call him a Ziofascist. Same difference.)

Never give up on seeking justice, people!

Posted by: Circe | May 30 2020 3:52 utc | 162

Posted by: NemesisCalling | May 30 2020 3:26 utc | 156 You were into some Weather-Underground shit, huh?

Well, I hoped to be way more competent than they were - but it turned out I wasn't. LOL As they say in the military, "Good training..."

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 30 2020 3:54 utc | 163

Possible sniper fire:

Posted by: Lozion | May 30 2020 3:58 utc | 164

Posted by: Lozion | May 30 2020 3:28 utc | 157 Its all over the place..

Haven't heard of anything here in San Francisco, but definitely in Oakland and San Jose. Tear gas and rubber bullets again in both cities. A cop got injured in San Jose. Two cops injured in LA.

WATCH LIVE: George Floyd protesters shut down I-880 in Oakland

WATCH LIVE: George Floyd protesters clash with San Jose police after shutting down Highway 101

Oops, looks like we get hit tomorrow...

March Against Police Brutality in San Francisco Tomorrow

Gonna rain here tomorrow, so they're gonna get wet. :-)

Meanwhile, China and India are deploying armor and troops against each other - this thing could go bad fast, too. Wasn't aware until a Twitter post I read just now what is going on there.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 30 2020 4:06 utc | 165

The US empire is collapsing because the costs of maintaining the empire are hollowing out the domestic economy of the US. Since the United States is the center of the empire it has to spend the lion share of the money required to operate and maintain the empire (PaxAmerica) these costs (the 800+ military bases, the hundreds of billions of dollars in foreign "aid", and the funding of various international organizations like the IMF, World Bank, WTO, etc...) all of that money comes at the expense of domestic needs.

Obviously all states have to spend money on world/regional/supranational organizations to some extent, America's problem is that they have around 15% of world GDP, but they are pursuing something called full spectrum dominance throughout the world, the ability to dominate economic, military and political decisions in all regions of the world. However, providing complete security control for the entire world requires the resources of the entire world! This is why the US has become so messed up domestically and hugely indebted, they are bitting off more than they can chew. For example, the US military's official policy is that they MUST be able to fight two near-peer powers in different regions AND six regional conflicts simultaneously. Its an impossible goal but they are still trying to fund it and because of that domestic needs (educational, infrastructure, political and cultural spheres) are being starved of resources and the society itself is becoming dysfunctional because only those societal elements that benefit from the maintenance of the empire are being served (the financial/military-industrial complex) and everyone else is at each others throats for the leftover crumbs.

Ultimately, the US is a slow motion train wreck, like the Soviet union of the 1980s maybe it can plow along for another decade or two on its own inertia. But without reform (i.e. the end of the empire), the US will become increasingly ungovernable, lurching from crisis to crisis, nothing ever solved, just pushed back to deal with the latest crisis. Just think since Dec 2019 (6 months) we've gone from impeaching the US president, to a possible war with Iran, to a health crisis (with 100K dead), to an economic crisis, to a (3rd) failed coup against Venezuela, to the start of a new Cold War with China over Hong Kong to country-wide riots over police brutality. In a normal country you might get crisis like over a decade, not 6 months and again, not one of these crises have been solved, a new crisis just pushed it off the front page. Yet, the problems are still there percolating growing larger

Posted by: Kadath | May 30 2020 4:09 utc | 166

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | May 30 2020 1:05 utc | 134 wrote:

Part of me finds their situation detestable and self-caused. As a person who believes in free will, how can anyone be 100% sure of victim-hood? You can't and seeing the lack of parenting, the stench of death which comes from poverty, it is enough to make you gag and thank heavens you are on the other side.

How much freewill do you or any one person actually harnesses at any one time? Don't get me wrong: I believe in freewill toon (plus a great song by Rush), but I also know I am filled with biases and perceptions and base biological drives/urges that often times acts in contravention with my freewill. Exercising freewill at one's will requires knowing yourself deeply, understanding what's happening to you and understanding what makes you tick. This is a process that takes time (perhaps years) for almost everyone.

So now add to that project the abject circumstance of poverty and systemic problems with institutionalized racism and, adding to that, the fact your numbers are low (thanks vk for pointing that out). It's not an accident that serious academic study after serious academic study shows that the probability of being poor having been born poor is in the upper 80%. Why is that? Bad parenting? If poverty is the central feature of the life of your family, then people aren't around to parent you nearly as much and with the attention as they are in a middle class family/community with functioning schools and services. There are so many cards stacked against you if you are born poor *and* if you are born black and poor.

I too see the poverty and the misery on a nearly daily basis as well, being a school teacher living in Richmond. It isn't that easy to say, "whelp, enough of that! I'll just be a responsible member of my society and pull my poop together."

Saying that it is self-caused somehow sounds like victim-blaming...which seems unfair given that these are people who have been run asunder for four hundred years by a system that has always treated them as second class.

Now we have an uprising. I wonder why.

Posted by: Norogene | May 30 2020 4:10 utc | 167


the demographic break down for the USA is nearly 60/40. It's a new world with plenty of allies south of the border and in the Caribbean. The settler-colonial state that is Amerikkka has no long term future.

Posted by: dimitrov | May 30 2020 4:56 utc | 168

It took one man a Mr. Derek Chauvin just eight minutes to bring down the United States of America to its knees. He'll be remembered long after we are all gone. Sincerely believe George Floyd's estate worth many many millions

Posted by: JC | May 30 2020 5:03 utc | 169

Posted by: gm | May 29 2020 20:56 utc | 85 This is what Jimmy Dore (from Chicago originally) thinks of American cops' mindset and culture...and he comes from a family of cops:

Thanks for posting that. Just watched it. Jimmy is even more brutal on them than I am. He made a lot of the same points I did about cop culture - either you like it or you get corrupted by it or you get weeded out. Which means it's the *system* that is corrupt.

When I was a kid, I had an uncle who worked in the Bristol, CT., police department (Bristol, 50,000 population - home of ESPN, which I have never understood). It turned out that there was a burglary ring operating within the police department. The cops would rob a store, then call in the report and investigate it themselves! My uncle knew about it, but didn't rat on his fellow cops - so when they finally went down, he got fired, too. That agrees with what Dore was saying about the cop in the picture standing there covering for the cop committing the crime. Even if a cop doesn't participate in crime, he usually will cover for crimes committed by other cops. It's that "we're all in this together" mentality (can't resist referring to the current virus phrase, since it's clear we bloody well aren't.)

Dore made other good points about cops being on steroids, being ex-military, etc. He mentions how he knew cops in Chicago, his father was a cop, etc. He also mentioned how cops in Chicago were selling cocaine and shooting people who ratted on them. Well worth a viewing.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 30 2020 5:30 utc | 170

Posted by: Norogene | May 30 2020 3:09 utc | 155 The open umbrella also seemed like it was meant to bring attention to him by those around him. Was he real Antifa or just some cutout facsimile of Antifa?

Missed your post first time through this page, sorry.

The umbrella, and even more so his style of dress, did seem to be a bit too non-OPSEC. But that could have been deliberate. But as Jimmy Dore mentioned, he seemed "a little too put together" to be from one of the black radical groups. Of course, it's possible he was some paid professional agitator from some group or just some lunatic. But there's too much history of agent provocateurs who are known to do extreme acts, going back to the 19th Century, to dismiss the possibility that he was a cop or a Federal agent.

"I think left to the people, there would be no predominant desire to pursue empire in which case democracy has a fighting chance (excuse the awful pun)."

The problem is: it's not left to the people. The people produce people who want power, then the people are seduced by lack of rationality into going along with the power-seekers. Even most so-called "revolutionaries" end up being power-seekers. The anarchist community has been fighting among themselves over this for a hundred years. Lenin was no "freedom-seeker."

"But, of course, you need to protect your country which means maintaining a defense force."

If there aren't any states, you don't have a "country", which means you don't need to defend it. You only need to defend yourself - and that depends on a society of rational people who have the capability of taking care of themselves as individuals and are capable of working together in "the common defense", as the Founders said. Which is why they produced the Second Amendment, even if there is some quibble over whether it was primarily intended for the state militias or a community militia; either way, it was intended as both a restraint on the central government and a defense against foreign invasion by having an armed citizenry which could easily be recruited to an army to defend the "country."

"It's the age old struggle."

And human nature is *why* it's an age-old struggle.

"its just that it takes a handful of the sociopaths to set the ship a sail toward things that aren't too savory."

But unless the rest of us follow, they can't do that. It's like the old joke about Robespierre during the French Revolution. He's sitting in a bar when a mob rushes by outside. He jumps up saying he has to catch up to them because he is their leader. The Situationist International used to repeatedly stress that they wanted a "revolution without leaders." They tried to deny that they were in any sense leaders, but never quite convinced anyone. Eventually internal squabbles disbanded them, just like most anarchist groups fall apart. Anarchists just don't do "group" things well. Who'd a'thought? :-)

Read up on the individualist anarchist milieu in France around the early 20th Century, which produced anarchist criminals like the Bonnot Gang - the first criminals to use a getaway car in a bank robbery - and the first criminals to do a carjacking - 'cause that's how they got the getaway car! It took the French military to put them down. Scores of thousands of French citizens turned out for their funeral.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 30 2020 5:52 utc | 171


I may have to reassess where you're coming from. having worked at a homeless shelter providing services for many ex-cons I suppose I can claim broad insight into your "type" the way you seem to be able to speak about black people.

the work I did in my community responding to chronic homelessness on the streets opened my eyes to what cops have to deal with as our society gets looted by the ruling class, which the cops are very much not a part of.

one of the cops I got to know was the officer dedicated to policing "quality of life" issues downtown, a euphemism for babysitting mentally ill drug addicts to make tourist feel safe. he was effective at his job because he invested time in knowing people. he knew all the colorful characters by their street names and showed a modicum of respect for people most good Americans see as human trash.

but even this good cop had his moments, because the system he works within is cruel and insane. near the end of his downtown deployment I came across this cop shouting at a homeless man who was semi-conscious and had shit himself. the cop had given him a ticket for an open container, and when I arrived he was in the process of citing him for littering, because this old drunk was at least able to throw the piece of paper back at the cop.

I knew the cop by his first name, calmed him down, and let him know I would help the old drunk to the shelter to clean him up.

there are human interactions like this that have happened, and will happen, and complicate the angry, hateful dismissal you make against large swaths of humanity.

Posted by: lizard | May 30 2020 5:58 utc | 172

Atlanta, Ga. riots in progress" not reachable

Posted by: snake | May 30 2020 6:02 utc | 173

What the hell happened to this site? It would be hard to convince anyone visiting it for the first time now that this was once one of the best sources of (relatively) unbiased critical analysis of international issues. Now its political leanings are blatantly obvious and issues are addressed in an utterly superficial fashion that ignores any counterpoint, cherry-picks its evidence and essentially preaches to a choir of dedicated nodding heads.

I don't want to spend more time than necessary on it so one quick example:
"The president threatened to kill the unarmed protesters"
arsonists and looters ≠ unarmed protestors
warning that people would be fired on if they continued to engage in violent crime (almost certainly with rubber bullets an teargas) ≠ threatening to kill people

In years past, statements like this wouldn't have been posted because there was a much higher standard of basic rational argumentation. On the rare chance that something like that slipped through, comments would quickly highlight it as a weak point within the post. Now, MoA is essentially just another ill-informed, ranting soapbox.

Posted by: Glagaire | May 30 2020 6:21 utc | 174

@snake #173 re:

Working here in Los Angeles area...with the good news that the third Iranian tanker has made it!

Posted by: Dr Wellington Yueh | May 30 2020 6:25 utc | 175


The white working and lower middle classes will not support violent rioting by blacks over a black issue. This is not a way to start a revolution.

Exactly, in fact no sane people regardless of race support these small groups of violent thugs and also the more they loot, damage, destroy property of innocent, the more support Trump will get.

Forget the race-baiting scare tactics, Trump has every right to go after ‘thugs’ as Minneapolis burns

Minnesota riots coverage: This is why Trump called mainstream media ‘enemy of the people’

Posted by: Zanon | May 30 2020 6:34 utc | 176

I don't know why so many commenters are criticizing lysias. All he's doing is slavishly believing what the corporate media tells him, exactly the same as the way some of his critics have done all along with that same media's Corona scare campaign.

Posted by: Russ | May 30 2020 6:39 utc | 177

Posted by: Glagaire | May 30 2020 6:21 utc | 174

Its satire. This is written using the 'HK Protest Coverage' template, but replacing HK with Minnesota.

Posted by: SGLurker | May 30 2020 6:57 utc | 178

out here in Montana we are preparing for a wave of second-home syndrome, a dangerous malady infecting entitled wealth hoarders who flee to their retreats at the first sign of trouble.

I don't know if Sara is a local or out-of-stater, but I do know it's not cool to land your helicopter in the Bob Marshall wilderness to fly fish, as motorized vehicles are a big no no there. for more on this story of entitlement, consult Hungry Horse News

Posted by: lizard | May 30 2020 7:17 utc | 179

Posted by: lizard | May 30 2020 5:58 utc | 172 I suppose I can claim broad insight into your "type" the way you seem to be able to speak about black people.

Actually you can't because, despite having been a criminal, I fell into class 5 - middle-class white. I'm not a white urban thug, nor a white rural redneck. I guarantee you that 95% - if not 99% - of the criminals you may have seen were.

Nice try, though.

"the ruling class, which the cops are very much not a part of."

But which they protect - and will never bite the hands that provide them their jobs. Very few cops lost their jobs when the Nazis took over in Germany.

"there are human interactions like this that have happened, and will happen, and complicate the angry, hateful dismissal you make against large swaths of humanity."

Ever watch Hill Street Blues? Remember Renko? He was the "dumb cop". He got caught peeing in an alley, and the Captain demoted him to ticket cop on a scooter. A week later, he runs into a burning building and saves a kid's life.

Now what is the lesson there? Cops can be complicated, just like any other human being. But it's like Ayn Rand once said: just because a Nazi concentration camp guard brings flowers to his mother on Mother's Day doesn't make him any less evil.

Now, I don't believe in "good and evil." I *do* believe in people being stupid, ignorant, malicious and fearful - all of which is the kind of person, as Jimmy Dore correctly states, that leans to becoming a cop.

Your individual story is nice. I never said, like Jimmy does, that *every* cop is an asshole. But I agree with Jimmy that eventually your cop will either bow to the system and become a corrupt cop (and you probably don't know whether he is now, for that matter - he may just not be a vicious cop) or he'll stop being a cop. Anecdotes don't really matter. Jimmy referred to a cop who used to be a sergeant in Baltimore. Said cop now researches police brutality as an academic. Jimmy's done interviews with him. So this isn't something one can dismiss with a "well, I knew a nice cop once..." story.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 30 2020 7:20 utc | 180

Posted by: Glagaire | May 30 2020 6:21 utc | 174 arsonists and looters ≠ unarmed protestors

Did you see a firearm, a knife, or even a kubotan in the hands of any of them? Did they attack anyone - or just property? I haven't bothered to check since such things are a complete waste of time by everyone concerned, anyway. My point is that unless someone is carrying a weapon, they are in fact unarmed. That is the definition of "unarmed."

Instead, we have this: Black Civilians Arm Themselves To Protest Racial Violence and Protect Black-Owned Businesses

"warning that people would be fired on if they continued to engage in violent crime (almost certainly with rubber bullets an teargas) ≠ threatening to kill people"

How many people have the Israelis killed with rubber bullets? Ever been hit in the head by one of those? Rubber and plastic bullets too dangerous for crowd control, says study

Rubber bullets kill 3 per cent of those they injure, and permanently disable many more: study

Those studies, BTW, used Israeli data.

"Now, MoA is essentially just another ill-informed, ranting soapbox."

To which you have now contributed your own ill-informed rant. Thank you for your participation in our ill-informed ranting.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 30 2020 7:36 utc | 181


I have not watched Hill Street Blues, and I am not trying to provide any kind of cover for cop culture, which is too often brutal and fiercely protective of any atrocity their ilk commit. If you really have done the time you claim, I deeply respect where you are coming from, no snark.

Posted by: lizard | May 30 2020 7:40 utc | 182

It's time to break the back of this sick twisted corrupt Nation.
A sick govt/police/military state, sick corporate power, sick media and most of
all the unhealthy mentally ill sheeple.

Hopefully in a few months none of us will be sitting around typing...
Revolution is the only way forward. This nation was started by Revolution and
it will end in Revolution. Get ready, its coming directly your way.

This Revolution WILL be least in the beginning. Good luck and be prepared
to fight the fight of your life. Fuck the govt

Posted by: CitizenX | May 30 2020 8:38 utc | 183

Posted by: gm | May 29 2020 20:56 utc | 85

The Jimmy Dore link is very good.

But, it is not just the US. Britain, Canada, France, Italy, et al.. The police provoke and do battle on behalf of the oligarchy. They are the oligarchy's internal army keeping the people in line. This is a class war, and the people are losing.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | May 30 2020 8:41 utc | 184

Russ @ 177
Interesting comment !
I’l just leave this one here then.

Have a good day !

Posted by: Mark2 | May 30 2020 8:42 utc | 185


Your thugs have physically assaulted lots of people for exactly things like not wearing a mask.

As for what totalitarianism is and how much police violence it entails, I'd try to educate you but you're obviously beyond help.

Posted by: Russ | May 30 2020 9:07 utc | 186

And you're evidently incapable of answering the actual charge: Slavish belief in the media always is the same pathology and always is wrong.

Posted by: Russ | May 30 2020 9:09 utc | 187

That cartoon, BTW, is a good example of the right-wing caricature of "SJWs": That only certain special kinds of oppression are wrong, others are fine.

Me, I look at that and say both kinds of oppression are evil. What's wrong with you that you don't see it that way?

Posted by: Russ | May 30 2020 9:15 utc | 188

re Russ | May 30 2020 9:07 utc | 187
Your thugs have physically assaulted lots of people for exactly things like not wearing a mask
there in a nutshell is how racism is/happens. "Russ does not have a clue who Mark2 is where he comes from, much less what race/culture/cadre he may belong to, yet just because he disagrees with him on an issue which is purely intellectual (whether or not protecting the population from an epidemic is correct or is an unconscionable attack on 'personal freedom' (sic) Russ slots Mark2 into some Russ designed category to be loathereg "your thugs".

Posted by: A User | May 30 2020 9:16 utc | 189

190 contains many typos caused by posting while cooking dinner & screwing up both oops.

Posted by: A User | May 30 2020 9:19 utc | 190

When people got suspicious of him the man walked away, his umbrella still up

This is a signal to other operatives who need to carry out their part of a larger operation ...

Posted by: Arch Bungle | May 30 2020 9:30 utc | 191

A User | May 30 2020 9:16 utc | 190

"Russ slots Mark2 into some Russ designed category to be loathereg "your thugs"."

He endorsed and identified with a divisive (and therefore pro-police state) cartoon which basically says one act of police brutality is bad, a million is a statistic.

Posted by: Russ | May 30 2020 9:32 utc | 192

tageslicht | May 29 2020 15:38 utc | 39

You are clueless. Try getting shot in the Netherlands, or in Germany. It will be quite hard. But don't let facts get in your way

I don't think it is all that hard to get shot in Britain. I remember the police shooting a man stuck in a traffic jam who had the misfortune to look like a suspected IRA man. Nor would I like to issue life assurance on any British "demonstrator" who took a bow and arrows to a demonstration a la Hong Kong.

Posted by: foolisholdman | May 30 2020 9:56 utc | 193

Russ ,A User has it spot on right ! You don’t know me.
I can’t ‘engage’ right now, busy strimming paths on a wild flower/wild level.
So no i’m Not a thug your wrong again, as always.
You appear lacking in empathy ! Classic America.
My advice is— you should reset your moral compass, and prioritise.
It Showa

Thanks A User. @ 189 Cartoon said it all. But all you added was spot on.

Posted by: Mark2 | May 30 2020 10:37 utc | 194

Nathan Tankus continues his series on the Feds response to the coronavirus.  This one I think is interesting because he makes explicit the connection between monetary and fiscal policy and how it affects the social situation.

The Federal Reserve's Coronavirus Crisis Actions, Explained (Part 7)
Riots, Municipalities and Monetary Policy

""It feels a little silly to be publishing a technical series on the Federal Reserve’s crisis response while the United States burns from another round of police murdering Black people. On one level, what’s happening has very little to do with the intricacies of central banking. On another level, they are intimately related. Our macroeconomic policy mix is centered around monetary policy and our fiscal safety net has been increasingly ripped apart. Since fiscal policy is a much more flexible tool that can be targeted to specific sectors and groups while replacing and increasing income and wealth, it is the best tool for dealing with discrete social problems and making sure that no one is left behind. The last major challenge to our economic policy mix came in the 1970s when Coretta Scott King co-founded the Full Employment Action Council to advocate for a legally enforceable right to a job. . As Coretta said:

When Martin Luther_King, Jr., left us in 1968, he was leading the struggle for jobs and income for every American. Martin Luther King, Jr., understood that the right to sit at a lunch counter is no right at all when you are without a job to pay for the lunch. He knew that the right to_attend a college is no right at all without a job to finance the education. And the right to live in a decent neighborhood is no right at all Without a job to pay the mortgage or rent. Many of the gains of the last two decades are threatened by the disastrous levels of joblessness among mmonty Americans. I fear that the civil rights legislation we struggled for, and some died for, is about to be repealed by the harsh reality of high unemployment and persistent poverty. [...]

 In my view, it's important to contextualize monetary policy in this way as these political issues are inseparable from the technical questions of macroeconomic stabilization. Trying to analyze the technical details of monetary policy without this context is at its core an analytical error. People live or die, and uprise or not, based on the macroeconomic and social policy a society pursues. I write about and advocate shifting to a fiscal policy centered macroeconomic policy framework where financial regulation plays a subordinate distributional, and demand restriction, role because I think that framework is the only that’s up to the task of responding to climate change and the deprivation that’s leading to civil unrest.

That framework may seem unrealistic and far away, but social instability tends to make the seemingly unrealistic possible. The New Deal was unimaginable in the years before it happened- and so was reconstruction

The big announcement from this month, which is mainly a negative one, is the update to the Municipal Liquidity Facility which made it far more restrictive than many had anticipated. It feels like a painful irony that I’m writing about this just as a major metropolitan area erupted. With that said, it's time to dig into the minutiae ...

Posted by: financial matters | May 30 2020 10:46 utc | 195

Posted by: lizard | May 30 2020 7:40 utc | 182 If you really have done the time you claim, I deeply respect where you are coming from, no snark.

OK, thanks.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 30 2020 11:21 utc | 196

Mark2 | May 29 2020 22:36 utc | 110

Looking at the picture of the cop kneeling on Floyd's neck, I should think it is quite likely that it was not so much that air could not get to his lungs, as that blood could not get to his brain. It looks to me as though he is kneeling on his victim's carotid artery.

Posted by: foolisholdman | May 30 2020 11:22 utc | 197

Posted by: CitizenX | May 30 2020 8:38 utc | 183 Fuck the govt

I like your attitude. But I sincerely doubt there will be any revolution, unfortunately. Trouble, maybe. Revolution of the sort envisioned by the Situationist International, no.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 30 2020 11:24 utc | 198

@Hack #181

In a way, you epitomise the decline of this site from the other side, the perceivable and significant drop in quality of regular commenters, people far more desperate to bolster their position than they are to engage in actual critical analysis and dialogue.

Looting is not a form of protest, it is theft; arson can be a political act but in this case (targeting random stores and even homes) is very clearly not. You know as well as I do that my point was perfectly correct and that no reasonable person would equate these self-serving acts of larceny and destruction with "unarmed protest", indeed much of the local community has strongly condemned them.

A couple of quotes from a reporter on the scene:
"As cops dressed in riot gear protected the perimeter on the ground, others took to the precinct’s rooftop firing down on the crowd with tear gas, bang grenades and rubber bullets."
So shooting of various kinds, but I guess they were doing it "to kill" as you seem to argue that because non-lethal weapons are sometimes deadly they are intended to kill (this is the only you could support the twisted interpretation of Trump's tweet).

"Opposing them were hundreds of protestors armed with rocks, fireworks, Molotov cocktails, golf clubs and baseball bats. One had a chainsaw."
Yes, so many "unarmed" people.

In short, your entire reply was either ignorant or utterly disingenuous, but you're more concerned with trying to win 'points' and bolstering your personal pride than you are with honest engagement.

btw. the "even a kubotan" comment says so much about you psychologically. You shouldn't try so hard, it makes you come across like teen on a military forum listing of his favourite specs.

Posted by: Glagaire | May 30 2020 11:30 utc | 199

Posted by: foolisholdman | May 30 2020 11:22 utc | 197 Looking at the picture of the cop kneeling on Floyd's neck, I should think it is quite likely that it was not so much that air could not get to his lungs, as that blood could not get to his brain. It looks to me as though he is kneeling on his victim's carotid artery.

OTOH, Floyd allegedly complained that he couldn't breath. Also it took some nine minutes to kill him? If that was a blood choke, he would have been passed out in ten or 12 seconds and brain dead or actually dead in perhaps 30 seconds to a minute. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Judo guys do that stuff all the time. Chokes are very dangerous. Some cops have training in BJJ, it would be interesting to see if Chauvin has.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 30 2020 11:32 utc | 200

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