Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 16, 2020

The Recovery Will Not Be V-Shaped

During the last four weeks 22 million workers in the U.S. filed for unemployment insurance. Some 10 to 15 million additional workers were not eligible but also lost their jobs.

Michael Hudson extrapolates from there:

Ross: Ultimately, where does this end? Because if in 12 weeks time, people can’t afford to enter into the social norms, enter into the economy, live, put bread on the table, where does that logically finish?

Michael Hudson: With the American economy looking pretty much like Greece. It’ll be austerity. There will be people who don’t have jobs. They are going to be evicted from their apartments. They will have run through their savings. They will not be able to pay their credit card debt and other debts so arrears are going to rise. The banks would be squeezed, but Trump says that although we can’t save the people, we can save the banks. The Federal Reserve has enough money to keep all the banks afloat, even if they’re not getting the mortgage payments, even if they’re not able to collect on their loans. The banks can now make up for the money they’re not getting by having a huge new market: lending money to private capital and to the large companies to buy out these small businesses that are going under. It’s a bonanza.

A bonanza for the 1%.

But the oligarchs who rule the United States are probably miscalculating this crisis:

“U.S. stocks are pricing in a V-shaped economic recovery even more keenly than elsewhere in the world, so are vulnerable in the case that exits from lockdowns globally and in the U.S. prove more complicated,” said Edmund Shing, head of global equity derivative strategy at BNP Paribas SA.

The crisis will not be over before the fat lady sings. That lady has not even entered the house. A recovery will not be V-shaped. The economy will not spring back into action as soon as the lockdowns are over. It will be a long slog. The U.S. economy always depends on consumer resilience. But with more than 30 million people out of jobs there will be a huge fall of demand compared to before the pandemic.

It is also likely that there will be more than one wave of the pandemic. During summer the case numbers will probably recede but they are likely to go up again during the fall. In between the pandemic will slowly burn through more of the population but mostly out of view because of many asymptomatic cases. When it comes back it will be in a different way. During the first wave the infections started first in place A then in place B then place C all depending on traffic and contact pattern. But the second wave will likely come, as it did during the Spanish flu, as one big wall that will hit all places at the same time. That will make it more difficult to allocate resources.

Pandemics are, as Nassim Taleb and other have pointed out, fat tail events where normal statistics no longer apply. They are not symmetric Gaussian distributions curves where the way down from high case numbers has a similar shape as the way up had. The way down is actually much longer and more of a very slow decline which might even include additional eruptions.

To expect a V-shaped return to a normal economy under these circumstance is foolish.

The political consequences will be huge. A wide public demand for more social policies will come into conflict with a recalcitrant oligarchy. Can that conflict be solved within the current U.S. system?

There are a few signs for hope. The first two vaccines developed in China are now in their first phase of human testing and more are coming. Some of them may actually work. A mass producible effective vaccine would mean that the fat lady has started to sing.

There is also the curiosity that most children not only do not fall ill with the covid-19 disease but do not get infected at all. Further research into the phenomenon could point to a protection mechanism that might be exploitable for the protection of adults.

On the sad side the Economist has started to systematically cover 'excess death' from the pandemic and finds that all official death numbers are serious undercounts.

Posted by b on April 16, 2020 at 17:49 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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While vaccines may be problematic, a youth restoring elixir may solve the problem! This is really reassuring.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Apr 16 2020 18:02 utc | 1

Seems like the alternatives are a muddled rearrangement similar to the post-Soviet space with consequent criminality and social collapse or a Bonapartist administrative adventure if the US military doesn't resist demands for it to arbitrate the conflict between public and oligarchs.

Posted by: Ralph Reed | Apr 16 2020 18:09 utc | 2

It is good to see an article focusing on the effects on the economy and how that effects people, because that is the real disaster from the actions of the governments.

Also good to see a reference to the Spanish flu, where 50-100 million people died world wide. Today the number is 143 thousand, a number 3 orders of magnitudes smaller.

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 16 2020 18:10 utc | 3

Canada has got UBI up and running already. Spain too
https://www.citynews1130.com/2020/04/15/feds-expand-emergency-benefit-program/
Are you a grocery or delivery worker?
"As part of expanded relief measures, Trudeau said the federal government was working with provinces to top up the pay of essential workers who earn less than $2,500 a month."

Posted by: BostonTom | Apr 16 2020 18:21 utc | 4

Thanks b, it's time to put on thinking cap. It's the "new normal" that's what one of my niece said!

Good luck everyone.....

Posted by: JC | Apr 16 2020 18:28 utc | 5

Those 1200 check that came in, my granda did not get one because my mom claims her as a dependent, also my 20 year old cousin didnt get his because his mom claim him depended on her taxes. Any excuse they can find to not give you that check they will find it, but mega corps can get trillions no problem

Posted by: Bob | Apr 16 2020 18:48 utc | 6

Is this is sign of things to come?

With assault rifles, protesters protest in #Michigan

https://twitter.com/rolandotelesur/status/1250856546894073856?s=21

Posted by: Lozion | Apr 16 2020 18:49 utc | 7

Treasury Sec Mnuchin said, in early March, that the economy is fundamentally sound.

He was wrong.

The US and other advanced economies (like Germany and Japan) were seriously slowing down.

Yes, stock markets were high, inflation was low, housing was strong and unemployment was low.

But rates of corporate profit were sinking, corporate debt was at record levels, real business investment was negligible, wages were up but still at ridiculously low historical levels, and inequality kept growing. World trade had also slowed considerably. Trump's tax cuts for the rich were merely pocketed or used for stock buybacks. Low interest rates kept things afloat, and the Fed had already reversed course on monetary tightening.

The US was on the verge of a recession, and the pandemic was merely an extreme trigger.

Marxist economic theory says that a crisis is resolved when enough dead capital is purged, labor devalued, and profit rates restored.

That will mean a further concentration of capital at the top, and further immisseration of the working class.

The US state is so captured by capital that it won't manage the crisis equitably.

The pool of social misery will be a source of fascist and revolutionary socialist politics.

This will create more instability.

Lastly, we can't ignore the working out of capitalist contradictions through inter-imperialist rivalries.

In our era, that means rivalries between the US, Russia and China, with Germany and Japan included in a second tier.

Expect Trump to escalate the trade war, further restrict exports to China, block Chinese corporate requirements, and threathen China's debt holdings as some form of "reparations." Expect military saber rattling to increase around Taiwan in addition to shows of strength from Guam (B52 flights).

In other words, recall Bukharin's warning that trade wars are only "partial sorties." In the end, they will be solved by "real force...the force of arms."

What we are witnessing is an unprecedented concentration of all contradictions of global capitalism and imperialism.


Posted by: Prof K | Apr 16 2020 18:57 utc | 8

I refuse to look at this situation as anything more than an opportunity for the wide change for the West that many here have advocated over the years.

There will always be the temptation to ask for mercy during this time and a return to NWO-globalist-consumer-driven Nightmare where populations outright ignore the horrible behavior around the globe that the elite spread and make victim-countries endure.

What y'all have been railing against for years is the terrible grip of the globalists and the absolute hilarious excuse for global government in the U.N. and similar supranational entities.

Why then, would you ask for relief, when what we will see in the next few years is the truth stripped bare and their narrative fall away? In order for this to happen, the U.S. and the West need to suffer. I don't see what is so hard to take from this notion.

Those who genuinely care for their neighbor will again rise to the front with the chance to reaffirm what humanity needs to do to live in balance.

Of course people will die. But life is not worth living in darkness.

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Apr 16 2020 19:03 utc | 9

As usual, I'll point readers to Shadowstats for its most recent reporting. An example:

"Week-Ended April 11th New Unemployment Claims Continued to Surge, Consistent With April 2020 U.3 Unemployment of Over 22%, Versus 4.4% in March (April 16th, Department of Labor - DOL)."

Note those are the doctored Department of Labor stats, not those displayed by Shadowstats, whose current graph doesn't yet include the latest figures. It reported unemployment at 22.9% as of 3 April; so, we should expect real unemployment to be over 40% when its next graphic's published.

I must emphasize the importance of following what's being reported by Max and Stacy on the Keiser Report and suggest starting with the March 26 episode or earlier if possible. The meat of the program's delivered in the first 13-15 minute segment, the second half being an interview with Max and that show's guest, most of which I skip when watching with the wife; the program's synopses usually provide the guest's name. So, those 10 shows listed at the link would take @150 minutes to watch--a very short amount of time given the amount of information supplied.

The Hudson transcript b cites at the top comes from this Renegade Inc program where he's teamed with Socialist Economist Richard Wolff that I've linked to in several comments. It's under 30 minutes, too, and another excellent investment of your time. Wolff has two new items at his website, his recent RT op/ed blasting Capitalism and the video of his recent Crosstalk appearance. I also suggest following economist Steven Keen's Twitter from where you can get to his Patreon page and such for even more info.

Yes, it's close to a fulltime job just to keep abreast with current events let alone dig into the past, which is why news media is so important as is their failure. Most people are now at home and have the time to become informed. Let's all continue trying to help them and ourselves.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 16 2020 19:05 utc | 10

The global elites have no one to blame but themselves for the economic catastrophe that is currently unfolding as a result of the corona virus pandemic. There will also be no where to hide and probably no where to stash their ill gotten wealth. After decades of advocating and practicing discredited economic policies that can be best described as warmed-over late 19th and early 20th century economics, (aka: austerity) the chickens, so to speak, are coming home to roost. The same will apply to the political hacks, grafters and corporate greed heads who also made this economic disaster possible. What the end result will be however, is unknown. The future can go in many ways. But as the late Robert Heilbroner wrote in his book "The Worldly Philosophers" some 70 years ago: "Economics is the only science that puts men on the barricades."

Posted by: GeorgeV | Apr 16 2020 19:12 utc | 11

there will be no economy. feudalism. post-neo-feudalism?

Posted by: albagen | Apr 16 2020 19:18 utc | 12

Nemesiscalling @9--

Of course people will die. But life is not worth living in darkness.

Stacy invokes Dicken's Tale of Two Cities in this Keiser Report episode that speaks to your above quote. The main point is things will worsen much more before any improvement occurs. Stacy being an optimist sees something better emerging from the wreckage, while Max remains cynical--mirroring the feelings of many here. IMO, invoking Dickens was masterful. We should be as lucky as the French to emerge at the end of the Napoleonic Era with a Republic; but, even that will take prodigious effort and struggle.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 16 2020 19:24 utc | 13

Bill Bonner, September 7, 2018:

You’ll recall that Fed policy always consists of the same three mistakes… 1) Keeping interest rates too low for too long, resulting in too much debt; 2) Raising interest rates to try to gently deflate the debt bubble; and 3) Cutting rates in a panic when stocks fall and the economy goes into recession.

Well, here comes the Big Bang: Mistake #4 – rarely seen, but always regretted.

Mistake #4 is what the feds do when their backs are to the wall… when they’ve run out of Mistakes 1 through 3.

It’s a typical political trade-off. The future is sacrificed for the present. And the welfare of the public is tossed aside to buy money, power, and influence for the elite.

Every debt expansion ends in a debt contraction. Stocks crash. Jobs are lost. The economy goes into reverse, correcting the mistakes of the previous boom.

Investors see their money entombed. Householders await foreclosures. The authorities scream: Apocalypse Now!

https://www.bonnerandpartners.com/bill-bonner-diary/americas-oil-boom-is-a-fraud/

Posted by: Mao | Apr 16 2020 19:46 utc | 14

Canada has got UBI up and running already. Spain too
https://www.citynews1130.com/2020/04/15/feds-expand-emergency-benefit-program/
Are you a grocery or delivery worker?
"As part of expanded relief measures, Trudeau said the federal government was working with provinces to top up the pay of essential workers who earn less than $2,500 a month."
Posted by: BostonTom | Apr 16 2020 18:21 utc | 4


-----

So rather than ensuring that "essential workers who earn less than $2,500 a month" be paid a wage commensurate to how "essential" they are alleged to be, the Canadian government has instead decided to subsidize private for profit corporations, by ensuring they don't themselves have to adequately compensate their allegedly "essential" workforce.

In the Canadian context UBI appears to be nothing more the government subsidising corporations.

Posted by: Realist | Apr 16 2020 19:53 utc | 15

I have few to add to Posted by: Prof K | Apr 16 2020 18:57 utc | 8.

Only like to complement his comment on two very important aspects to pay attention to from now on:

1) This pandemic is different from 2008 for the fact that, while 2008 was a general crisis of capitalism that was triggered from the American financial system, the COVID-19 crisis is a general crisis of capitalism that was triggered from the "real economy", i.e. the producitive process of capital. This makes the COVID-19 crisis a much more formidable obstacle to capitalist reproduction than the 2008 Wall Street/European Union meltdown. And it's important to highlight 2008 also wasn't really V-shaped: it evolved into a depression after the 2010 euphoria.

2) It's very unlikely the USA will collapse in a single historical event. As a capitalist nation, the USA is much more decentralized, fragmented and anarchic (in production and distribution of the wealth it produces and consumes) than the USSR. The USSR was a centrally planned economy: when Gorbachev committed the mistake of demoralizing and destroying the CPSU, he automatically destroyed the USSR. That will not be the case of the USA: the fall of Washington D.C. - or even Wall Street - would not be the immediate end of the USA. The most likely scenario for an end of the USA would be for a gradual and constant degeneration of its social structure, with or without balkanization (probably with). This balkanization would be very violent, because local capitalists would assemble private armies and fight against each other for supremacy and the reunification of the USA (a la Roman Empire). It would be a Mad Max cum Yugoslavia scenario. The problem with this is: who would be in control of the American nuclear arsenal? Will the USAAF be capable of stopping with the balkanization process and thus keep the country united? Will the USA anihilate the rest of the world before it would disappear, in an act of nihilism? A lot of known unknowns - let alone unknown unknowns.

Posted by: vk | Apr 16 2020 20:06 utc | 16

Realist @15

They are capitalist, so what more can you expect? At least they are not just printing dollars and delivering them by the pallet load to the rich like they are in the US. Those dollars in Spain and Canada at least pass through the hands of working stiffs once, which is more than can be said in the US.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 16 2020 20:06 utc | 17

I agree with your analysis that economic recovery will not be V shaped

That said, before reading your posting I skimmed other sites and read that at 6 pm tonight Trump will present the other side with another 2 trillion in "infrastructure monies".

If this social economy reset ends up being as significant as it promises to be then it will, IMO, fundamentally change the market/sales driven consumptive culture of the West. With reduced consumptive demand driving increased unemployment on one side and increasing automation of labor on the other, humanity will genocide itself not paying attention to the repercussions this reality or not.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Apr 16 2020 20:07 utc | 18

"Dollar Demisers" will be disappointed, but then since tmany of tgem claim to know a lot of theory but seem to have absolutely zero actual experience of the practice, disappointment is something they should by used to by now.


It's not just the "petro-Dollar" you should be looking at, it's the "Debt-Dollar"

---------------

No, the dollar will only strengthen post-corona, as usual: it’s a crisis, after all
by Ramin Mazaheri for the Saker Blog

"Last November, in a then-boring but now-prescient 10-part series (I socialistically re-interpreted ex-Wall Streeter Nomi Prins’ book Collusion, which chronologically detailed the QE-spreading collusion between G20 central banks since 2008), I wrote the following in Part 3: QE paid for a foreign buying spree: developing countries hurt the most:

    “Yet by flooding the world with trillions of dollars via QE the US was able to, paradoxically, maintain dollar dependence despite their crimes. The US dollar share of global reserves today is 62%, almost exactly what it was in 2008. Combined with the other source of the crisis – the euro – the two combine for 82% of global reserves. By comparison, the yuan – which so many predict is about to dethrone the dollar – is at below 2%; I wouldn’t hold my breath.”

But corona is different, right? Two percent and 62% will suddenly change places, right?

No, more QE is more of the same thing, and this is a “thing” which has worked exactly as designed; it is also a “thing” which is never broached in the Mainstream Media: “A way to create debt traps which increase Western control over their neo-imperial subjects. … Neoliberal-capitalism financial policies must be viewed as a neo-imperial tool, of course.”

People are acting as if Western neoliberalism hasn’t worked, LOL? It has worked spectacularly well… but only for their 1% and not for “the nation”, exactly as designed.

Many fine semi-dissident commentators apparently do not follow high finance, nor can they interpret their actions, even though high finance is the West’s vanguard party (thus the theme of my recent series – “bankocracy”); they often incorrectly focus on an easier-to-grasp storyline of nationalist competition, which (like racism, sexism or tribalism) simply cannot ultimately take precedence over class warfare.

I’m not being dogmatic – this simply provides the fullest explanation of economic events. Reject what socialists could call the “conspiracy” of the 1% via class warfare? Then you likely move on to absurd, unprovable “conspiracy theories” involving secret cults, elaborate handshakes, ritual sacrifice, etc.

This is the bottom line which (whom I will call) “dollar-demisers” simply do not understand: For better or for worse (certainly worse), the US and their greenback are still the gold standard when it comes to 1%er perceptions of a safe harbour in a crisis.

This will hold true in 2020 just as it did in 2008.

Many semi-dissident analysts unwittingly take a rather Trotskyist view that capitalism will eventually implode under the weight of its own contradictions. It won’t – some rats always find a way to survive a sinking ship, eh? Thus, open socialist combat is the only way to defeat modern Western capitalism, and also to satisfyingly explain what is going on in the Western Great Recession/Depression 2.

So maybe the yuan will become the dominant currency… but not in two months, nor two years – maybe two decades? That’s a big “maybe”. In my lifetime, I think.…

Until then, please believe me: Western globalisation/neoliberalism has a LOT of ammo, clout, clients, banks, real money, real gold, fake money and paper gold to keep their mighty dollar on top. Socialism teaches us: it is NOT just Americans who will deploy these weapons."

Posted by: Realist | Apr 16 2020 20:08 utc | 19

The recovery will NOT be, but Trump will distract all Americans by screaming against China and how China is responsible for everything. Expect Americans to fall in line and the anti Russia hysteria to now turn into super anti China hysteria. Expect attacks against Asians in USA
And all because the Chinese were greedy bastards eager to make money and they quickly forgot history and how the Ango Saxon treated them just merely 150 years ago.
As somebody who grew up in Communist Eastern Europe it the 70s, I vividly remember how we were warned how the Americans will try to hurt us by spreading bio weapons. This was grilled into us over and over. The Communists knew. China better gt prepared, the West will try to rip them a brand new assholes. And they got nobody to blame but themselves!

Posted by: Hoyeru | Apr 16 2020 20:13 utc | 20

"In the Canadian context UBI appears to be nothing more the government subsidising corporations."
What the government is doing is ensuring that individuals do not starve and that demand for basic goods does not disappear.
In a society riven by class struggle the next question to arise will be who pays for this? If the burden falls entirely on the backs of the taxpayers, most likely in the form of a funded debt requiring eternal service, then this will indeed be nothing more than a subsidy of the corporations and the class which owns them. A subsidy motivated in part by a fear of the consequences of depriving millions of people of their incomes.
On the other hand, if the benefit is paid for by restoring corporate taxes and income taxes to the levels that they were at as recently as 1970, or even, in keeping with wartime analogies, with the levels they were at in 1946 or 1950, then all will be to the good. Not least because, once the wealthy are taxed properly they will start to question the vast sums Canada spends on 'Defence", subsidies to Ukrainian fascists and adventures with the Lone Ranger of Washington DC, in Latin America.

The point is that what happens next is up, to a great extent, to us. Already hopeful signs in the shape of a spontaneous rash of strikes, and swings in public opinion behind social programmes, are to be seen: the green shoots in humanity's Spring.

And Ralph Reed@2 may be forced to reconsider his pessimism: there is an alternative in the form of democracy. Those old enough to recall Occupy will remember how suddenly it happened and how quickly it spread.

Posted by: bevin | Apr 16 2020 20:13 utc | 21

Realist @15

They are capitalist, so what more can you expect? At least they are not just printing dollars and delivering them by the pallet load to the rich like they are in the US. Those dollars in Spain and Canada at least pass through the hands of working stiffs once, which is more than can be said in the US.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 16 2020 20:06 utc | 17

-------

This looks more like corporatism, not capitalism.

Mussolini defined Fascism thusly:

    "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power"

Posted by: Realist | Apr 16 2020 20:15 utc | 22

Magnier provides a different take on my Nurturing vs Parasitic Nation concept:

"#Coronavirus is changing the World. Superpower countries r not defined by the number of nuclear bombs they have but by:

"- Investment on health care, virus reaserch program, Number of Hospitals, ventilators & masks factories

"- The support to other countries at a time of Pandemic."

IMO, the ease in predicting which nations would do best and fare worst prior to the pandemic was simple. The most unlawful, immoral nations would fare worst with the most lawful moral nations faring best, and that's pretty much what's occurred, with the worst now trying to convince the world black is white--again.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 16 2020 20:16 utc | 23

I keep reading/hearing the "leadership" repeating the mantra...lifting restrictions depends....until a vaccine ...likely in 18 months and

at b;

"There are a few signs for hope. The first two vaccines developed in China are now in their first phase of human testing and more are coming. Some of them may actually work. A mass producible effective vaccine would mean that the fat lady has started to sing."

Don't think so - too many strains. Billy G and Dr. Fauci are in tears. It will be sometime before the fat lady clears her throat for the first note: Albeit this study is yet to be peer-reviewed:-

Mutation strain from India could kill current research efforts for coronavirus vaccine: report


[.]Collaborators from Murdoch University in Australia along with research authors Wei-Lung of the National Changhua University of Education in Taiwan said the strain in India was the first report of a significant mutation of the series.

"The observation of this study raised the alarm that Sars-CoV-2 mutation that varied epitope (something that an antibody attaches itself to) profile could arise at any time. This means current vaccine development against Sars-CoV-2 is at great risk of becoming futile."[.]

And for the meme on the vulnerable seniors. Hmmm, Canada at 29,929; in the heaviest hit Canadian province - Quebec - 69% of the 15,857 confirmed COVID-19 cases (April 16, 2020) are in the 0-59 years group. The separatists are pleading with the Federal government to send in military doctors. Discovering that Federalism works. Bien.

The recovery from the Great Depression 2.0 rides a timeline into 2025. It won't be a V or an L.

Posted by: Likklemore | Apr 16 2020 20:18 utc | 24

I love that I'm retired, on a fixed income, with no dependents (not even a dog or a goldfish), living within my means (although I wish those means were far higher than they are) - and I'm getting $1,200 of free money from the government (plus an extra $100+ in food stamps.)

There was a piece of fiction in Playboy many years ago about people on unemployment. A couple guys were in the Unemployment office. One of them was an anarchist. The other asked: "What kind of anarchist takes money from the government?" The anarchist replies, "A smart one! Did you think anarchism was mental illness?"

As long as the government sends my Social Security checks, and the operation that supports my housing continues to function (that could get iffy in a Depression, but we'll see), I can ride this period of economic problems out in relatively stable condition.

You know what they say about various catastrophes? "Only people in outlying regions survived." Well, they were living in outlying regions because no one wanted them in the more populous areas. That's me. I survive - like a cockroach - while the rest of you suffer.

In any event, if I can just last long enough to complete my planned course of study in computer hacking, subsequently money will be no problem - only it will be someone's else's money. Preferably Bill Gate's money, since I hate the Windows operating system... thank God for Linux...and especially Kali Linux, the tool of choice for Mr. Robot...

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 16 2020 20:19 utc | 25

thanks b...covid has landed a head blow on capitalism... it's not yet down for the count, but maybe when it returns in the fall...i kinda doubt it here as it's right in time for circle the wagons jamboree! wall st and the fed are working hard to keep up appearances..

nice plug for nassim taleb.. he might sell a few more books as a consequence.. the last one - skin in the game - was an enjoyable read.. i think i have read 5 or 6 of his books now..

@ 4 bostontom.. it is "Workers who earn $1,000 or less a month will be able to access the CERB". this was to cover those still working. many of us not working get covered whether we qualify for ei or not - self employed people qualify.. it is pretty hard not to quallify and it is monthy, for how long - i have no idea..

@ 15 realist... as @ 17 william gruff notes - at least it is going into our hands before it gets recycled back.. the same can't be said for in the usa where you know boeing will be getting bailed out while the little people continue to get screwed... that is a fairly severe bit of into b shares at the top - "Some 10 to 15 million additional workers ( in the usa) were not eligible but also lost their jobs." how is that going to work out? more tents in cities? the picture ain't pretty here the usa will indeed be doing as boris said - 'taking it on the chin'... at some point something has to give.. maybe @nemesis calling is correct.. we are finally at this point where the shit is hitting the fan.. i don't expect capitalism to take it lying down.. they will have to continue to circle the wagons and indeed based on all past parallels - they will.. i agree with your last line @19..

Posted by: james | Apr 16 2020 20:23 utc | 26

foreclosures are lining up. People who have lost their good jobs are not paying rents for the better places, they moving to subsidized housing units, just walking off to government subsidized housing, leaving the small fry housing and third class rental space with nothing, but taxes, repairs and insurance to pay and not one think dime of income. next come the fire sales, and to add to the difficulty the stay at home has shown many smaller businesses physical office space is unnecessary.. so millions of square feet of office space is going to go dark.. its going to be Houston, 1980s all over the world Free rent for the first two of the next five years.

Oil prices and energy costs need to go to bottom.. $0.20 a gallon for gas is going to be difficult to pay. One way to get them down is to cut the military budget to the bone, but that will put millions of enlistees out of work. All prices are going to go down, way down. no matter how much pumping the crooks at the Fed do. Millions of people will no longer have cars.. People living in the country are going to grow their own or move to town, bicycles are coming more and more common.. there is no hobo train, few long distance buses, so transportation between places will be even slower than in 1930s.

Posted by: snake | Apr 16 2020 20:23 utc | 27

In a society riven by class struggle the next question to arise will be who pays for this? If the burden falls entirely on the backs of the taxpayers

Posted by: bevin | Apr 16 2020 20:13 utc | 22

-------


Its Canada under Justin Trudeau and Ukrainian-Nazi spawned Christina Freedland. What happens next, who pays, is pretty easy to predict.

Posted by: Realist | Apr 16 2020 20:24 utc | 28

Among the 21 million laid off so far, are millions of workers who never lost a job before. And next week will be worse. The deeper the cutbacks, the more experienced and valuable the employees let go.

The reaction with these millions of people is not to consume, to save every dime, to alter their lifestyle. This will keep the US in recession for years longer.

When you have lost your income, your savings go, your pension money goes, you begin to sell things, dime on the dollar if you are lucky. And you learn to not shop, not buy, to do without.

This is a traumatic moment in the US psyche and consumerism will be set back enormously.

All predictions of recovery are ludicrous.

Posted by: Red Ryder | Apr 16 2020 20:25 utc | 29

30 million jobless claims is no big deal to the federal government or Wall Street.
Average income in the United States is $63,000.
+30 million new joblessness.

30 million X 63,000 = $1.89 trillion dollars

Let's round that up to $2 trillion dollars.
We already had $2 trillion+ Overnight REPO Operations since last September...for the banks hoarding money.
We already had $2 trillion+ QE4 or whatever number it is in December or January.
The CARES Act is priced in at just over $2.4 trillion and probably more like $4.5-to-6 trillion dollars.

Face it because with that scale the Federal Government could have sent $60,000 to $100,000 to every household, prisoner and homeless person in America and I guarantee the economy would still be humming. And most importantly, the rich people never would have been seen a decline in their net worth because working people pay their bills on time

Posted by: Rich | Apr 16 2020 20:28 utc | 30

Is there even going to be a real "recovery"? One thing is sure there will probably still be Coronavirus. This link is to a report on the Roosevelt Aircraft Carrier where "most" of the sailors tested were asymptomatic. (ie. 60% of the over 600 infected). They were "healthy" and in their 30-40's and NOT visible as carriers (ouch).

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-military-sympt/coronavirus-clue-most-cases-aboard-u-s-aircraft-carrier-are-symptom-free-idUSKCN21Y2GB

What this does mean is that unless all the population is tested (4 billion) then there will always be the possibility of a new series of infections.

However, it also suggests that the Detrick scenario, with soldiers visiting Wuhan without knowing or showing that they were infected, could be correct.
-------
So a recovery where the masses are supposed to run back to work, (or hobble on bended knees) for a pittance, then rush into the bosses shop to take on massive debts for a few necessities, all the while mumbling their oath of allegiance, - will have to take into account that many of them will be coronapositive as well. I assume the older members will have decently died off, and the streets will be kept deserted so that the oligarchy can use their "Lambo-porsch-ferraris" flat out, burning as much fuel as they can to use up the surplus. The permanently out of work, the ill, and the unloved can be kept in isolated cages "For Everybodies Moral Attention (FEMA) or fixed in stocks (the wooden kind) if they are naughty. (Free eggs, rotten and second hand can be supplied for a small consideration. Allowing for inflation not more than a wheelbarrow load of dollars for six should be enough)

You are allowed to ignore that rant, I just felt like blowing off steam.
--------
A more real scenario is that there is blowback a couple of years down the line, after all if this situation continues alsmost indefinitely then what happens?

Posted by: Stonebird | Apr 16 2020 20:32 utc | 31

Dollar as global reserve currency will persist only so long as China goes along with it, which won't be all that long as they are already hashing out deals to denominate trade with other countries in currencies other than the dollar. The dollar stuck around so long as GRC because for quite a while after WWII much of the international trade involved purchasing goods manufactured in the US. Obviously that is not the case anymore.

As vk @16 mentioned above, manufacturing is the real economy. Capitalist finance is just a parasite on the real economy. On its own finance can do nothing but shuffle paper around.

What the dollar worshipers don't realize is that it isn't the share of the GRC that is important, it is what currency the people who make stuff that other people want to buy are selling their goods in that is important. The US has very little leverage to force the Chinese to sell their products in dollars.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 16 2020 20:35 utc | 32

I love that everyone here is stroking their beards debating the finer points of capitalism while we're literally watching the largest heist in the history of the planet unfold in front of us.

Posted by: So sad | Apr 16 2020 20:25 utc | 32

----

Yeah, I've had quite a laugh at that too. That virus has turned out to be a really topclass smokescreen. Champagne all round, crack open another bottle o' Bolli

Posted by: Realist | Apr 16 2020 20:37 utc | 33

So sad @ 32
Have you read the previous posts on this site ? Take a look perhaps going back to the out break of corona virus. Then come back. I note your cheap shot, in a massive world wide crises, think of the human suffering. People here take a wholistic approach to reality !
Can i ask do you follow off-Gardian? What is your go to blog / blogs ?

Posted by: Mark2 | Apr 16 2020 20:40 utc | 34

There is only capitalism. "Corporatism"=capitalism. There are no distinct things like "bankers capitalism" or "predatory capitalism" or any other fanciful corruptions of supposed "pure" capitalism. There is only the capitalism that currently exists, and that is the only capitalism that can ever be. In fact, capitalism as it now exists is the ultimate refinement of capitalism; the end product of centuries of gradual improvement. Capitalism doesn't get any better than what we have right now.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 16 2020 20:44 utc | 35

So sad @32

Bankers print dollars and give those dollars to themselves. What can you do about it? Furthermore, dollars are all just IOUs to the banks in the first place, so why get your panties in a bunch about it? At the end of the day the banks are just making IOUs to themselves. If that makes them happy then good for them. Don't let it get you down.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 16 2020 20:49 utc | 36

"I love that everyone here is stroking their beards debating the finer points of capitalism while we're literally watching the largest heist in the history of the planet unfold in front of us."
So sad@32

It is only a 'heist' if the promissory notes that they have got are honoured. It is almost certain that the amount of 'debt' they have issued cannot (and will not) be repaid. At the very least the debt is going to be audited and any obvious heists will be declared "odious debt."

Times change, do not assume that what was will always be. (I see from your post at @35? that you, like your mate Realist, have no conception of political change, let alone of popular uprisings. Piven and Cloward's 'Poor Peoples Movements' is a good start if you're an American.)

Posted by: bevin | Apr 16 2020 20:53 utc | 37

Posted by: So sad | Apr 16 2020 20:25 utc | 32

"I love that everyone here is stroking their beards debating the finer points of capitalism......."


capitalism SUCK and dead! anyone wanna debate me?

Posted by: JC | Apr 16 2020 20:54 utc | 38

Rich @33 has it pretty much correct.

The Soup Nazi: "No soup for you" is an excellent summation. As Max and Stacy point out, there's plenty of money/capital, but it won't be distributed equitably, which is part of the Class War.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 16 2020 20:58 utc | 39

Just one detail: the "bell curve", as you noted yourself, is a distribution along the Gaussian function, ie not a time-dependent variation. So it is totally irrelevant to the discussion. Just call it an asymmetrical curve -- plain English steep climb - slow fade, or any equivalent expressions will do.

The thing to emphasize is that the predictable factors about the climb-down are only the tip of the iceberg, as it will mostly depend on political malevolence, monopoly-capitalist greed and crass stupidity, not to mention the folly of the crowds.

Posted by: Piero Colombo | Apr 16 2020 20:59 utc | 40

Times change, do not assume that what was will always be. (I see from your post at @35? that you, like your mate Realist, have no conception of political change, let alone of popular uprisings.

Posted by: bevin | Apr 16 2020 20:53 utc | 42

------

"Follow me to the revolution, it's just over the next hill, I promise!"

Posted by: Realist | Apr 16 2020 21:00 utc | 41

"..Until then, please believe me: Western globalisation/neoliberalism has a LOT of ammo, clout, clients, banks, real money, real gold, fake money and paper gold to keep their mighty dollar on top. Socialism teaches us: it is NOT just Americans who will deploy these weapons."
Realist@19
I won't believe you because you are wrong.
But I do recognise the depth of the sincerity behind your trust in the imperialists. It is clear from all that you post that you cannot conceive of a future in the US is not hegemonic and its oligarchy omnipotent. It is not surprising that you consider history, even pandemic diseases, to be nothing less than the unfolding of the Imperial ruling class's Wish Lists.

Posted by: bevin | Apr 16 2020 21:02 utc | 42

The analysis by our host is, I believe, accurate, with but one exception: "To expect a V-shaped return to a normal economy under these circumstance is foolish."

I don't think they really "expect" a V-shaped return. It is just that the alternative is cataclysmic economic disaster for them. End of the road. How does a capitalist structure their portfolio for the economic equivalent of the biblical "End Times"?

Betting on a V-shaped recovery is just an act of abject desperation. But then, so is conjuring $trillions in cash out of thin air to fill corporate coffers with, so I guess it should be expected.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 16 2020 21:10 utc | 43

Realist @47

Revolution would have saved Rome and prevented the Dark Ages. Do note, however, that Rome failed anyway. Just because a revolution doesn't occur doesn't mean a decrepit socio-economic order can persist indefinitely. Society wasn't ready for a capitalist revolution yet, so the world had to wait until society was ready for capitalism. In the meantime... Dark Ages. Likewise, if society is not ready for socialism, that doesn't mean capitalism will go beyond its contradictions and limits. It just means the world will have to put development on ice for a while with a new Dark Ages.

I'm thinking that won't be necessary, though. China isn't about to follow the West into the new Dark Ages, so it will be a matter of going though a period of global realignment.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 16 2020 21:18 utc | 44

VK,
". . .
This balkanization would be very violent, because local capitalists would assemble private armies and fight against each other for supremacy and the reunification of the USA (a la Roman Empire). It would be a Mad Max cum Yugoslavia scenario. The problem with this is: who would be in control of the American nuclear arsenal? Will the USAAF be capable of stopping with the balkanization process and thus keep the country united? Will the USA anihilate the rest of the world before it would disappear, in an act of nihilism? A lot of known unknowns - let alone unknown unknowns.

Posted by: vk | Apr 16 2020 20:06 utc | 16"

IMHO the questions at the end of the graf are all valid, and pressing. But not sure I agree with the beginning sentences, that balkanization will be Mad Max-style violent and will pit states against each other.

The USA consists of states that are already asserting quite a few powers and prerogatives in this situation. Some of them have set themselves against the fed. govt. and the states' citizens are following their governors, not Trump. (Certainly the presidential election is looking more and more like a sideshow of some kind.) I think all American states have a strong state identity; in addition many have a strong regional identity (I can't speak for other parts of the country, but this is the case in New England; [not surprising, as this is the best part of the country (;-)]. Actually, being a small, somewhat isolated with small states and high education levels is a lot better than being stuck in a "region" that is surrounded by other US states, e.g., Tennessee has borders with I think eight states; the whole NE region borders just one US state, New York).

I think there is a good chance that balkanization could be a gradual process whereby states and regions see the emergence of politicians able to deal with the health and economic challenges statewide and regionwide, create and protect local prerogatives and populations, and are willing to stand up to DC. We have a tradition of states' rights, and this may come to be interpreted in ndw ways. I think this is already happening, de facto.

US states already have their own administrative structures and full repertoire of departments---health, education, conservation, transportation, housing, revenue, etc.

I can imagine more clashes between states and DC than between states.

Posted by: Really?? | Apr 16 2020 21:19 utc | 45

"Realist@19
I won't believe you because you are wrong."

Those words you quoted weren't mine.

And your belief ain't gonna be required. I can't imagine Wall St going "whoops, we're rumbled, bevin disagrees! Call it off, call it off!"

In fact given the repeated failure of what you seem to like to refer to as your "analysis" ( such as it is) in the past, (ISIS not being a very obvious US proxy force, to give but one example of many I could offer) I'd actually start to worry that I must have got something wrong, something fundamental, the minute you start agreeing with me.

Proffering a different analysis is only "trust in the imperialists" to someone with a very fragile ego who is constantly blinded by ideology.

Blind adherence to Ideology is little different from blind adherence to theology. Its just another way of saying "I'm not original enough to think for myself so I borrowed these ideas, and by golly I'm stickin with em, even when they're wrong"

Posted by: Realist | Apr 16 2020 21:24 utc | 46

Realist 19 quoting Ramin:
"some rats always find a way to survive a sinking ship, eh?"

++++++++

Yes, by *leaving* it.

But how can the rats leave the sinking ship we are talking about??

Posted by: Really?? | Apr 16 2020 21:25 utc | 47

Re: Dark Ages

Lol. It wasn't actually dark in the "dark ages", Gruff

Historians just called it that cos they knew so little about it.

I.E: it was dark to them

Its like when you hear people refer to the "darkweb" you know immediately you're dealing with someone who hasn't a fuckin clue what they're talking about

Posted by: Realist | Apr 16 2020 21:32 utc | 48

Sounds like change we can believe in. So many chickens coming home to roost, it sounds like thunder.

I quite agree with the idea that leaders betting on a quick recovery are doing so because they have no idea what to do otherwise. I expect it to get "disorderly" and fast. Obama was our Coolidge, Trump gets to be Harding, who is going to be FDR this time? I don't see anybody up to the job.

Posted by: Bemildred | Apr 16 2020 21:32 utc | 49

Bevin @ 22
"What the government is doing is ensuring that individuals do not starve and that demand for basic goods does not disappear. "
+++++

Well, yeah, obviously. But the question is still, who is paying for this. Until I see something different, I'll go with the version that this is the tovt/taxpayers bailing out corporations who are too greedy pay "essential" workers a living wage. This is no different from Walmart workers being instructed how to apply for govt subsidies because Walmart pays them 11 bucks/hour.

I'll believe in that the Pollyanna-ishly wished-for "restoration of corporate taxes" to rates in the 1970s to pay for the UBI and other needed survival subsidies when I see it.. Until that pie-in-the-sky time, you can be sure that taxpayers---regular folks, not richies and corporations operating under new socially aware rules---will be footing the bill.

Posted by: Really?? | Apr 16 2020 21:36 utc | 50

Crushing the economy is the point of this whole exercise. They don't care about their paper wealth right now, they're going for real assets; land, houses, businesses, etc.

Posted by: So sad | Apr 16 2020 20:33 utc | 35

--------

It's simple enough.

You'd think they'd get it, but I guess you fucked up by not usin' enough twenty-dollar words, (so beloved by theoretical "experts", with no practical experience whatsoever.)

Posted by: Realist | Apr 16 2020 21:42 utc | 51

Several commentators have spoken to an aspect of the current crisis that's being somewhat hidden although it's critically real, and that's the underlying productive economy as represented by manufactures and agriculture, the latter of which no nation can survive without. It's that critical point that prompted Max and Stacy to title today's Keiser Report "The Fed Can't Print a Supply Chain".

The big story not being told is the catastrophic interruption of the supply chain between farm & processor to restaurant supply purveyors and restaurants--the latter of which are mostly closed or only offer greatly curtailed service. Thus, the at first seemingly nutty hoarding of flour of all types being a vital primary example. I just visited the Bob's Red Mill website to check its inventory of flours since it produces a very wide variety and most are now out-of-stock. Our local Smart Food Service chain that supplies restaurants and the public is no longer able to provide product inventory levels over the phone or their next day pickup service since overall supply of critical items is uncertain or worse. I'll be shopping this Saturday and will do a more in-depth examination, but the signs are all there, particularly crops rotting in fields because there's no demand from restaurants. Milk's being dumped in most every state. All those scenes are straight from the 1930s despite the economic issue being quite different. Having a home mill to process whole grains and beans into flours--Walter--is a component for survival. Mid-points in supply chains are also very vulnerable as we're seeing with the closing of Smithfield, Tyson and IBP meat processing factories as hundreds of their workers are COVID-19 infected. Does anyone reading this know the genuine cause for the French Revolution and why Marie Antoinette's infamous remark cost her head?

Manufacturing will face the same issues, although what's made in the domestic Outlaw US Empire isn't much and certainly isn't as critical as foods. But, failing to supply the 99% with the cash they need to maintain their households despite food shortages will drastically impede the recovery when people finally return to work as the vast demand shortfall will continue.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 16 2020 21:51 utc | 53

b, quoted by Likklemore @ 25:
" b;

"There are a few signs for hope. The first two vaccines developed in China are now in their first phase of human testing and more are coming. Some of them may actually work. A mass producible effective vaccine would mean that the fat lady has started to sing."

++++++++++
I'm sorry, but b does not seem to grasp the character of corona viruses vis-a-vis development of a vaccine, although this has been repeatedly mentioned by virologists, epidemiologists, and others. The fast-mutating corona is a moving target that vaccine magicians cannot keep up with. The same is true of the flu, but it doesn't seem to mutate so fast. Even so, each year it is a crap shoot to choose a strain to use for flu vaccines. A number of virologists have pointed out that you can't develop a vaccine for the common cold. As far as I can see it is a similar deal with a vaccine against SARS-CoV-2.

For sure a bunch of vaccines will be developed and marketed, and probably will work some of the time, in some patients, in some regions, etc. But from my understanding of the dangers to the immune system inherent in vaccines, it seems quite possible that getting one of these "not quite on target" vaccines could lead to bigger problems for the recipient down the road, when a similar but not identical gunslinger virus shows up at the OK Corral.

To me it is really weird that in the past, advocates of vaccines constantly talk about herd immunity. That is the thing they are gong for. It is achieved by means of *everyone* getting the vaccine.

Now, with this virus, suddenly "herd immunity" has become a dirty word, as bad as, say, "socialism." Those who know the improbability, dangers, and unreliability of the prospects for a vaccine against a corona virus and want to see herd immunity achieved "naturally" are shouted down. Not your "herd immunity," only OUR "herd immunity"!

So, lemme see if I got this right:
Herd immunity imposed from above, GOOOD.
Herd immunity achieved "naturally," from below, BAAAAD.

Posted by: Really?? | Apr 16 2020 21:55 utc | 54

The attitude of some commentators is so haughty that they project themselves being immune to the economic affects of this crisis. If you're so goddamned well off, then why the fuck are you here laughing at those of us trying to make sense of this!?

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 16 2020 21:59 utc | 55

karlof1

It would be interesting to see a chart of eating habits by country. In China, I found most eat out through weekdays and cook at home on weekends. Supermarkets here are always out of flour, yet the bakery section is always full of bread. Makes me think buying flour is just a coronavirus fashion thing. Same for crap paper here still none or the little that comes in is rationed and soon sold out.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 16 2020 22:01 utc | 56

to So sad - Yes, I agree that it is the biggest heist in the history of mankind. Absolutely audacious fraud right there in broad daylight. However, I have yet to see convincing evidence concerning the origin of the virus - lots of speculation, but to me it's not clear. Please! Don't offer up a bunch more links. I'm about done with the quagmire of details. I happen to think that that Nissem Taleb is correct. A complete stop would have been the most intelligent course, but, that's just my opinion, and, alas, most humans are not so logical as Taleb.

As for your fellow bar-flies, hey, give us a break. This isn't the OK Corral. You don't need to call us out. Yes, Blackrock is bent on stealing everything, and they care not a bit how many die, but let's leave the guns at the door when entering the saloon. Cheers

Posted by: Miss Lacy | Apr 16 2020 22:02 utc | 57

Some if us remember the scam that was "Occupy Wall St" and the grifters who quickly inserted themselves.

Micah White Is the Ultimate Occupy [Wall St] Grifter


    Micah White told the Guardian this month that "To understand what I could achieve at Davos, I first had to understand Davos."


    On March 6, 2014, Micah White, who appends “cocreator of Occupy Wall Street” to his name like a royal title, invited me to join his “Boutique Activist Consultancy.”

    It was a few years after Occupy had disintegrated. White emailed me that “Other Zuccottis have already joined the BAC Speaker’s Bureau on the same terms that we are offering you.” He said I should negotiate a minimum of $2,500 honorarium for speaking engagements — 2,500 Euros for international ones. “Flight and hotel will be paid by [my] host.”

    I would have access to a “remote logistical coordinator” and “high-end workshops . . . on how to increase honorariums and speaking skills.” White said his speakers bureau was a “prestige service” committed to “preferential treatment” and “travel in a comfortable way” for “professional movement speakers.” The icing on the gilded cake was that my coordinator, “equipped with an iPhone 5c,” would arrange “proper airport pickup, fruit in the hotel room, etc.”

    White had landed a few self-promoters he called “Zuccottis,” a term neither I nor other reporters who chronicled Occupy had ever heard. I laughed that he seemed so impressed with the entry-level trappings of the 1 percent — comfortable travel and hotel-room fruit — that he apparently believed others would be enticed as well. . . .

Posted by: Realist | Apr 16 2020 22:05 utc | 58

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 16 2020 21:51 utc | 61

"The Fed Can't Print a Supply Chain"

Yes, that is the problem, and it's been baked in since China shutdown to contain the virus, quite aside from the arguments over how bad the virus is or is not. And near as I can tell, nobody has really thought it through or done much more that try to patch things up in the meantime. It's not too late to start, I suppose, but that would require squaring up to the problem, and I don't see anybody with the nerve yet. So far it's all helicopter money and hope.

Posted by: Bemildred | Apr 16 2020 22:09 utc | 59

@ Posted by: Realist | Apr 16 2020 20:08 utc | 19

True, the USD is (and will) only get stronger as it is the universal fiat currency - but that's only true for the USD as a financial asset.

The USA will never suffer from high inflation, but printing money indefinitely has concrete consequences even for them: the USD will still get weaker in purchase power, thanks to the Triffin Paradox, and it will still result in an equivalent in deindustrialization (as the fiat currencies of the rest of the world get even weaker vis-a-vis the USD).

Eternal and infinite printing of USD is not unconsequential to the USA. Very far from it.

Posted by: vk | Apr 16 2020 22:16 utc | 60

For example, a lot of our food supply used to go to restaurants and fast-food joints, all of which cannot handle it now, where is it going? Grocery stores cannot handle it all either, esp. with the restrictions in place. So down the drain. Is the supply going to be there when the food service places are allowed to take up business again? Are the food service places still going to be in business by then? How much demand destruction is there going to be? Who knows?

Similar examples are everywhere in our "service related" economy.

Posted by: Bemildred | Apr 16 2020 22:16 utc | 61

Karlof1 @ 61:
"The big story not being told is the catastrophic interruption of the supply chain between farm & processor to restaurant supply purveyors and restaurants--the latter of which are mostly closed or only offer greatly curtailed service."

+++++++++++

What I saw explained in a video by a guy who has a big vegetable-growing business in Florida is that the food supply operates on two separate "rails" that do not cross: retail food buying (grocery stores) and commercial. "Commercial" includes not only restaurants but also, crucially, schools and other institutional purchasers of food such as hospitals, college food services, etc. To me it seems like a better metaphor than "broken" supply chains would be strangled supply pipelines. If you pinch the end of a pipe closed, you can't make anything flow through that pipe.

This vegetable guy said he had to plow fields of green beans under because they plant beans every day to supply the markets with beans on an ongoing basis. They then harvest beans every day on a schedule. If they can't get a particular day's beans to the commercial market, those beans get plowed under.

Another reason why closing schools and everything else was perhaps ill thought out. Of course all the jobs that are part of the bean pipeline are cast off. Same, I assume, for the milk pipeline. It is too bad that no one, apparently, is in charge. No one who could commandeer processing plants to turn the products into other products that can be stockpiled, such as frozen or canned beans, dried or evaporated milk, etc.

Or, take steps to make an intersection between the commercial- and the retail-market supply pipelines.

This is an area and level on which maybe state governors can get together with each other and with private entities in nearby states to ensure the food supply, medium term. While the Feds build hospitals perhaps states should be building processing plants and food warehouses and grain elevators . . .

Posted by: Really?? | Apr 16 2020 22:29 utc | 62

The biggest inhibitor to substantial rebellion in North America is the indifference to substantial knowledge. While this indifference cuts across class lines, it has resulted in more harm to poor people. The fatalism on display in this thread is representative of North American poor people, especially those born after 1980.

This indifference to substantial knowledge and consequent lack of knowledge results in very few opportunities for substantial opposition being visible, thus the hysterical comments to the effect that nothing can be done, and every statement by the existing power structure is a lie---a hysterical fatalism that is part of our zeitgeist.

To get out of that mindset, one must exercise curiosity, the absence of which is another part of our zeitgeist. Instead of curiosity one sees neatly packaged beliefs about the recent past, coupled with ideological positions that occur in tight clusters.

But to exercise curiosity, one must both remember and reflect, to notice the odd and not understood. THC messes with memory. Mass frequent usage of marijuana is another part of our zeitgeist.

For the presently powerful, the ongoing collapse will likely be a disaster. If poor people can no longer pay their bills, the habit of using violence on a large scale, thus far mainly abroad and against weak minorities, may come home. If hunger becomes an issue for a large portion of the population, who no longer have access to circuses of TV et alia, internal banditry by poorer people will become a substantial issue.

The option of seeking substantial knowledge remains open.

Posted by: Johan Meyer (2) | Apr 16 2020 22:43 utc | 63

What we’re seeing in people’s comments here, is ‘coping mechanism’s. natural really. A realist would see ‘its over’ so sad !!!
This won’t be a v shaped recovery. The psychopath elite are finished. As cleaver as they think they are, they always fail, why ——— Becouse psychopaths are crap at predicting outcomes !
Their plausible so a lot of people buy into there plan. Trump / Tory voters.
The liberals psudo left sit on the fence (there not hungry).
The west have no insight, but I think the rest of the world watch and know.
Babylon fall !!

Posted by: Mark2 | Apr 16 2020 22:43 utc | 64

Realist @52 said
"Blind adherence to Ideology is little different from blind adherence to theology."

I'm no economist however I am sure that the dollar is a faith based system. Nothing more.

Should that faith weaken , the theological value can vanish extremely fast.

Posted by: arby | Apr 16 2020 22:53 utc | 65

Posted by b on April 16:

On the sad side the Economist has started to systematically cover 'excess death' from the pandemic and finds that all official death numbers are serious undercounts.

Careful B, those are apples and oranges, as I've highlighted in previous comments. Those are comparing mortality estimates against field collected results, much less are they using influence attributable death estimates. Even state of art studies (Eurosurveillance) warn against rushed conclusions when comparing the yearly estimates alone, which is a much fairer comparison.

Despite the results presented here, further validation of the described approach is warranted. For instance, we need to explore the use of different influenza parameters, as clinical indicators of respiratory disease such as ILI and ARI on their own may not be the best indicators of influenza-attributable mortality and influenza virus circulation.

Also note the range of error on the estimates for influenza-attributable vs the same error wrt all-cause mortalities made in this study (FluMOMO vs EuroMOMO algorithms here).

I doubt the Economist is employing a methodology at all much less state of art algorithms to arrive at their conclusions. Even then they will fail because Covid-19 mortality is obtained following a completely different methodology and those numbers can not be compared against estimates.

Posted by: Vasco da Gama | Apr 16 2020 22:53 utc | 66

Meanwhile, IMF Predicts China to Surge, Yet Again, Next Year
The IMF now predicts that China next year will have the highest rate of economic growth since 2011, which was the last time when China’s GDP growth-rate exceeded 9% (at 9.6%). China’s growth-rate had averaged around 9% between 1978 and 2011, then slid to around 6.5%. If the IMF is correct, then 2021 will be the first time in a decade that the country’s GDP growth-rate is restored to its former long-time norm.

Posted by: Godfree Roberts | Apr 16 2020 22:54 utc | 67

Peter AU 1 @64 & Bemildred @67 & 69--

The National Restaurant Association compiles those sorts of stats but I haven't seen them since I retired from that line of work 24 years ago. We rarely eat out since I can produce better food at a much lower cost--@$120 for full dinner, dessert & wine for two at one of our local eateries--that's much healthier and better for us given our physical states. We live in what's mostly a poor rural county where going out to eat means pizza or some other fast food, so most people cook at home for economic reasons. Yes, it's odd--stores having sales on bread this week; as I said, it demands closer investigation. Oregon is one of the few states in the USA capable of completely feeding itself with the farm-to-table concept being very popular. Our patronage of restaurants happens mostly when we travel to one of our main cities, which isn't very often, perhaps 6 times a year. But admittedly, we aren't anywhere near a normal household. Outdoors Farmer's Market Season is about to begin, and our Governor's hinting at incrementally lifting our "lockdown" by end of April provided our citizenry continues to behave.

"Squaring up to the problem" means standing up to the Banksters. Here's the first report of a victory in the Class War, in this case aimed at Vets, which was a huge mistake PR-wise. It's no wonder the retreat was so rapid:

"Carrie, a 22-year-old mother of two from Minnesota whose husband was injured while serving in the military, told the Prospect that she doesn't 'know where rent is going to come from' now that USAA has seized her family's $3,400 payment.

"'It was going to help my 18-month-old get her meds,'" Carrie said. "'I'm at a loss for words, they don't care.'"

And neither does Realist as he admitted above.

The smart move would be to remove all your money from USAA bank and terminate any agreements you have with it if possible.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 16 2020 22:56 utc | 68

at some stage those that want to live forever in their houses so as to never die will need to come around to the reality that we 'need to open'.
Not forcibly for the economy but to be able to go to a dentist, GP, hospital for surgery, food production and so on and so forth.
I know it must be comfortable for those that can work from home at full time pay, but these 30 millions that applied for unemployment in the US alone and from now have nothing to declare will not starve in a ditch without a peep just so as to not upset the dears that still have jobs.
And that really is what needs to be discussed.
How are we going to manage the day after, and non of our collective governments seem to have the slightest as to what to do.
In NZ half of the suits want to stay closed, and half of the working stiffs have run out of money. And the small business owners that have leases to pay and rates and so on, well no one even bothers to mention them, cause fuck it, the hardest part of the lock down is the coming out and adjusting to the new norms and it seems that the selected suits still grapple with the hard part of work.

So really people get used to dying, of Covid, of hunger, of cold, of neglect, or of a dental abscess that could not be fixed because the dentists were not allowed to open, of breast or prostate cancer because we stopped screening, and so on and so forth.
So for the 'we want to stay home ' brigade, do so, for as long as your finances allow you stay the fuck at home, the others can't. Count your blessings, your money might gonna pay you six more month of 'safety' at home.

Me all i want is governments now talking about going to back - building hospitals for the next wave, building testing capacity, training nurses and cares without student loans, building capacity for countries to make PPE, masks, gloves and sanitizer. Well for a starter that would be something to talk about, right?
But we don't hear much about that? We don't hear much anymore about the 'staying home' to flatten the curve so as to not overwhelm the health care sector. The same healthcare sector that these useless fucker consistently and with malice underfunded for the last 30+ years.

Also what else has happened in the world? What rights are they taking away from us, what wilderness are they going to despoil for mining and drenching and so on and so forth. Global warming must not be an issue anymore.

Maybe we just need to remember that life has a 100% fatality rate, and none of us is ever going out of it alive.

Posted by: Sabine | Apr 16 2020 22:58 utc | 69

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 16 2020 22:56 utc | 76

Agree with all that, Oregon would seem like a good place to be, it's been a while since I was up there, my brother used to work on a dairy farm in Salem.

I haven't been into fast food or factory food for around ten years now, no chance of going back to that anyway, nasty stuff.

They will come to care soon enough, despite all the snotty remarks.

Posted by: Bemildred | Apr 16 2020 23:04 utc | 70

Really?? @71--

I spent lots of years in the food industry and understand the dynamic you illustrated. Yes, there wasn't much thinking done at all on any governmental level, nor was there any real prior planning despite some regions susceptibility to events that would close down local chains. Nationwide denotes Federal Government responsibility, but Katrina then Sandy showed just how woeful the planning and expertise is at that level. It ought to be clear by now that the Outlaw US Empire's national government regardless the party in power is only good at Four things: Lying about most anything; bullying and warring on other nations; impoverishing its citizenry; and ensuring the elite class face no risk or lose one cent.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 16 2020 23:09 utc | 71

Any recovery needs to be looked in terms of the US effort to isolate China from itself and its vassels.

BBC - Coronavirus: Macron questions China's handling of outbreak
National Review - Japan to Pay Companies to Move Production Out of China

Not to mention Boris the clown going against US with 5G. He learnt his lesson I guess.

Business Insider - China has been told by the UK that it cannot return to 'business as usual' after the coronavirus pandemic
Reuters - China will have to answer hard questions on coronavirus outbreak: UK foreign minister
USN - UK Urged to Stop China Taking Control of Imagination Tech: Lawmaker
Reuters - West must do more to stop China buying up technology: former UK spy chief


And the list goes on. 3,000 dead were enough to take US and the US west into its war of terror.
MH17 was enough to push Russia out
Much more was needed for the big split with China. At the moment Trump looks to be winning.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 16 2020 23:17 utc | 72

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 16 2020 22:56 utc | 76

I've just been explaining how the system works. You don't like the explanation, obviously, but that's not my fault. That's like blaming a mechanic because your car won't start, just because he told you it needs a supply of gas to run. Knowing how it works doesn't make me responsible for it, you know that right? It was like that when I got here.

Posted by: Realist | Apr 16 2020 23:22 utc | 73

Really?? @62 "Muh hurd immuniteh!"

I suppose you do not understand how it works, but there is no difference between herd immunity developed by vaccine and herd immunity developed by all of those susceptible to the virus dying off... except, of course, the deaths of some number of the population large enough to influence the population's gene pool.

It would take millions of deaths to significantly alter America's gene pool.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 16 2020 23:30 utc | 74

Btw Karloff, i was one of the first here to point out how the 1% just fucked everyone economically, and was immediately attacked for it by you and several others. So its damned hypocritical for you to present yourself as the "Mr Caring for the economically fucked" when 3 weeks ago you didn't give a damn, spent the time ranting about how we need 100% lockdown and attacked anyone pointing out that the 1% just pulled a massive heist using CV as a cover.

This recent rebranding as "Mr Caring for the economically fucked" rings a little hollow in light of your previous utter indifference

Posted by: Realist | Apr 16 2020 23:32 utc | 75

So Sad @ 78

your story goes hand in hand with this
https://prospect.org/coronavirus/usaa-changes-policy-will-return-emergency-payments/

USAA, the large bank that primarily serves veterans and military members, has changed its policy and will no longer be using emergency CARES Act payments to offset existing debts from individuals. The bank will return all money confiscated from customers under the old policy, including Carrie, the woman whose family lost $3,400 to USAA when their CARES Act payment was placed into an account they thought was closed.

t’s unclear how this will affect charged-off accounts like Carrie’s family had. The family no longer has access to the account, which they considered closed and which has $8,000 in debts on it (the family claims it’s in part from fraudulent activity). USAA could either remit the $3,400 in funds to the family via mail, or return the CARES Act payments to the IRS, enabling the IRS to mail them out to the family. Hartwig told the Prospect, “We are working through what the best solution for that will be” for that situation.

As recently as this morning, USAA customer service representatives were telling customers, according to logged chats sent to the Prospect, that their policy was to use CARES Act payments to offset debts. “Please be advised that we are not taking all stimulus checks,” said one representative to a customer, presumably trying to soothe their concerns.

Posted by: Sabine | Apr 16 2020 23:36 utc | 76

Sabine @77.

Well said. Thanks.

Probably I’m mistaken but it seems to me that much of the time spent in lockdown is being used to devise ways to exclude the use of cash when the “liberation” occurs. The herding towards digital business is gathering pace.

“I am not a number!”

Wanna bet?

Posted by: Cortes | Apr 16 2020 23:37 utc | 77

Posted by: Cortes | Apr 16 2020 23:37 utc | 86
Probably I’m mistaken but it seems to me that much of the time spent in lockdown is being used to devise ways to exclude the use of cash when the “liberation” occurs. The herding towards digital business is gathering pace.


why yes, this is what i am hearing from relatives in Germany. - a slogan from the poor people - Only Cash is real.
People need to wake the fuck up and realise that before Covid 19 people died, of all sorts of illnesses and that we did not collectively asked to be locked up prisoners in our own homes (so as long as we still have money to pay for it) and on a government ration.
I had a historian explain to me tat be need a UBI, heck even the romans gave free bread to the citizens (non citizens need not apply). He got upset when i reminded him that with the bread came the circuses and that the Romans fed live people- infants, adults, and the very old - to wild beasts for entertainment.

But essentially what we finally learned hopefully for ever is that those with the best education have learned nothing other the spite, malice and greed. and they kill you and me for our petty savings given half a chance.
they are cannibalistic in nature. And we are the food.

Posted by: Sabine | Apr 16 2020 23:43 utc | 78

“I am not a number!”

Wanna bet?

Posted by: Cortes | Apr 16 2020 23:37 utc | 86

---

You're only a Bill-Gates-skin-implanted-RFID-vaccination-chip away from real freedom, folks!

Step right up!

Posted by: Realist | Apr 16 2020 23:49 utc | 79

Posted by: Realist | Apr 16 2020 23:49 utc | 88

everyone who take his mobile phone everywhere is a number, tracked traced in real live with your full and total permission.

fuck, but this is getting tedious.

Posted by: Sabine | Apr 16 2020 23:53 utc | 80

Miss Lacy @65

The only way this "heist" can pay off is if there is a relatively quick V-shaped recovery, or if inflation is allowed to run rampant real soon. I, and our host as well, could be completely wrong, but I agree with the master of this blog that there will be no V-shaped recovery. As for turbo-inflation? The financial elites will fight that tooth and nail because it will de facto amount to the debt jubilee that most Americans long for. The fact is that there are too few working people with cash wealth to make robbing them with inflation worthwhile. The rule for working people in America is debt, and some supercharged inflation is just what they need to get their heads above water.

The "heist" cannot work. Maybe the elites think it will, but it cannot work any more than the financial elites can pull up on their jock straps and lift themselves off the ground to fly around in the sky like fairies. It is simply not how economies function.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 16 2020 23:54 utc | 81

@b and all barflies Trump and his neo-confederates were notifying Israeli intelligence about Coronavirus risks back in November ! The news report comes from Israel's 24 hour news service, their french version of CNN. Meanwhile, stateside they were doing nothing to prepare and defeat virus. Chump's #covidfalseflag and Yt supremacist war gambit will fail, the facts are piling up against gang of exceptional cretins.
https://www.i24news.tv/fr/actu/international/1587061098-le-renseignement-americain-a-mis-en-garde-israel-contre-le-coronavirus-mi-novembre-channel-12?fbclid=IwAR2i_LO2GZFpEO16CSeIMoRIMKjILt-J5NX60lT9g6COdr-0Au-9zFyYUx4

Posted by: Augustin L | Apr 16 2020 23:55 utc | 82

@b and all barflies Trump and his neo-confederates were notifying Israeli intelligence about Coronavirus risks back in November ! The news report comes from Israel's 24 hour news service, their french version of CNN. Meanwhile, stateside they were doing nothing to prepare and defeat virus. Chump's #covidfalseflag and Yt supremacist war gambit will fail, the facts are piling up against gang of exceptional cretins.
https://www.i24news.tv/fr/actu/international/1587061098-le-renseignement-americain-a-mis-en-garde-israel-contre-le-coronavirus-mi-novembre-channel-12?fbclid=IwAR2i_LO2GZFpEO16CSeIMoRIMKjILt-J5NX60lT9g6COdr-0Au-9zFyYUx4

Posted by: Augustin L | Apr 16 2020 23:55 utc | 83

Evidence SARS-CoV-2 Emerged From a Biological Laboratory in Wuhan, China
https://projectepstein.github.io

Posted by: foo | Apr 17 2020 0:11 utc | 84

It's always fun to be right, even if it's a no-brainer (although certain very certain commenters disagreed)!

In this case, the topic is the feasibility of creating plasma banks and databases of those who have recovered from covid-19 (on which I posted in the previous MoA corona thread).

From the blog of an American physician with a general practice in Rome, Stethoscope on Rome (http://www.stethoscopeonrome.com/):

"Treatment updates: the big guns
Convalescent serum: Since I last wrote the recruitment of recovered American covid-19 patients has proceeded apace, blood banks now vying with hospitals to find donors. The Red Cross has set up a donor website in addition to the National COVID-19 Convalescent Plasma Project one that I linked to last week. Patients with confirmed diagnoses are already donating plasma at the New York Blood Center, and they soon will be in at least another nine states. In Italy, the Tuscan blood bank has begun sending letters to recovered covid-19 patients inviting them to donate plasma, with Lombardy and Veneto soon to follow suit and Lazio, Campania, Marche and Molise the next comers.
. . ."

Posted by: Really?? | Apr 17 2020 0:15 utc | 85

"At the moment Trump looks to be winning." --Peter AU1 @81

Tell you what, when you see giant and modern steel mills popping up around Pittsburgh and Sheffield, then you can speculate about Trump and Boris the Clown "winning".

Narrative is important, and I discuss it quite a bit as it is useful for crippling working class consciousness. Economic reality cannot be created out of narrative, though.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 17 2020 0:18 utc | 86

foo fuck off with your propaganda.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 17 2020 0:26 utc | 87

Sabine @77

Nice strawman you created. But the reality is that nobody wants to stay home in "lockdown" any longer than is necessary.

The debate you seem to want to avoid is whether the plan to lift "lockdowns" is sufficiently robust or if TPTB want to cut corners just to make a buck (as they are notorious for).

Where's the 15-minute testing that has been touted as a "game changer"? Where's the results of hydroxyChloroquine studies/trials in New York State and elsewhere?

Doesn't it make sense to transition from 'virus mitigation' to a 'virus suppression' BEFORE the lockdowns are lifted? WHY is the government avoiding such a discussion?

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 17 2020 0:34 utc | 88

@b
Piotr Berman @1
"There is also the curiosity that most children not only do not fall ill with the covid-19 disease but do not get infected at all. Further research into the phenomenon could point to a protection mechanism that might be exploitable for the protecting grown ups."
"While vaccines may be problematic, a youth restoring elixir may solve the problem!"
Children's bodies are so vastly different from those of adults that as a parent of a 4 year old I am astonished there does not seem to be a general recognition of their incredible proportionate power and energy. A 4 year old is a tiny cage fighter. Medical science isn't even asking questions about this.
The energy necessary for all body functions is electrical energy. It would not surprise the well self educated and somewhat cynical readers of this forum to learn inquiry into these phenomena ended with several Italian scientists having been burned to the stake in a battle in which the opposition enlisted the church to declare their work heresy.
Science does not know where we get current in the body. The format in which energy performs work is current. There's no theory entertained on this matter. It is simply ignored.
If you can increase current in your body, more work can be done. Like fighting things with your immune system. Your overall health, energy, and youthfulness. Your awareness functions. Your raw physical power. And the power of your voice.
This post is a teaser, but it wouldn't hurt to respond here to say you're looking forward to b's post on this topic after he has a chance to review the materials I will forward for his perusal, and to interview me if he so desires. It will come with instructions for you to make it happen. It will not cost you a dime. The revolution will not be televised. My target is around late July or August, largely virus depending. Stay well!

Posted by: Bruce | Apr 17 2020 0:36 utc | 89

William Gruff
Boris was taught a lesson. He's far from winning. Trump's number one enemy has always been China. Decoupling US and its vassals from China was a problem and I did not see how he could accomplish that as the US west would go through a lot of pain in the decoupling.
Now the US west is blaming its decoupling pain on China.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 17 2020 0:39 utc | 90

William Gruff @95--

Economic reality cannot be created out of narrative, though.

Just as "The Fed can't Print a Supply Chain," which I stole from Max Keiser above. Another of his observations: "There's no price signal, no value recognition or proper valuation of assets anymore; it's all fantasy when it comes to Fiat." Real commodities have Real value; and those commodities cannot be obtained without Labor. That's why the use of a Bubble in the analogy used to describe the fantasy.

As I said awhile ago, whether natural or planned, the event has occurred and spawned effects that must be dealt with. How they're dealt with will inform us of the true nature of the Opposing Class and the level of affinity they have for those they actually rely upon. You and I have an excellent idea of what that level is, but a great many need to have their eyes pried open by having their wallets and purses emptied.

Posted by: https://vk.com/id580 | Apr 17 2020 0:40 utc | 91

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 17 2020 0:18 utc | 95

and a dying and starving homeless populace is going to impose its conditions, right? :)

He is winning, he has fucked the courts, the military, the bureaucratic state, the religious state all whom are now openly run by mobsters with various degrees from legacy universities in an 'acting' position. - You effectively have no functioning government.

The US is fucked one way or another. He already has won, and he is getting richer by day.
Before the election D.Trump said that he did not use email, he used couriers. And his children have been awefully busy, and traveling and and and. Your country was sold by Donald Trump Inc. aided and abetted by the american taliban and their political party the GoP.

Unless the governments of this world start talking about doing something effectively against this illness such as huge investment into healthcare now - inclusive job creation, and impostes a full stop on all rent/ lease/ mortgages, plus start issuing free electricity, water, and food, it is business as usual, just that you are now a bit more precarious and poor.

Posted by: Sabine | Apr 17 2020 0:40 utc | 92

Odd about 100. That's mine.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 17 2020 0:42 utc | 93

Is anyone familiar with the user script to block posters? I am trying to use it, but it doesnt appear to be working correctly. The script is saved with grease monkey extension running. I am able to change the setting to show the poster name before the comment and the block button is present, but nothing seems to happen when I click block.

Can anyone tell me how to use this correctly?

Posted by: David F | Apr 17 2020 0:48 utc | 94

That's it. That was the only thing they were looking for. Today they said "sorry, the money's gone" and that's it. If you think I'm going to stand idly by and watch my sister's business be stolen without fighting back, you'd be mistaken.

This is war.

Posted by: So sad | Apr 16 2020 22:59 utc | 78
++++++++++

Infuriating.
But I cannot help wondering why your sister continued to bank with BoA after the 2008 debacle. There was at that time a lot of discussion of getting out of TBTF banks and moving one's money and business to a community bank or a credit union. Lists were put together of reliable and honest community banks. My own bank is on the list. I had already left BoA years before and moved my accounts to a local savings bank, Plymouth Savings Bank. Plymouth was bought up by a solid regional bank, Eastern, based in Lynn, before 2008, so I left the accounts there.
I had started out with the great old Shawmut Bank in Boston. Then that was bought by BankBoston. Then that was bought by I think Fleet, in RI. Then that was bought by BankAmerica. I was sick of the creepy name changes along with the creepy mergers and buyouts. So I was happy to go local. Before the 2008 mess.

Posted by: Really?? | Apr 17 2020 0:59 utc | 95

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 17 2020 0:34 utc | 97

no strawman here JR. No educated bullshit. Nothing.
just the reality.
No matter what the damage done, the future dying that will happen because we are not doing the right things, can not be denied, and can also not be layed solely at the feet of some.
As i said in my first comment, those that want to stay home to stay save, should, use your money until you too run out.
HE won, insofar as he was simply the one who pulled the plug on everything and told ya to get fucked. He has done this systematically since he set foot in that house of presidency. And then he broke everything he could.

And nothing you / or all the other well meaning but safety needy guys will do - if you are still alive then - will change that for many years to come.

So unless you really want to stop your huffing and puffing and throwing around loaded terms of nothingness without actually accepting reality i have no time for you.

Posted by: Sabine | Apr 17 2020 1:00 utc | 96

You are a pathetic little boy. Bet you wish you had the courage to speak so bluntly in real life,eh?

Posted by: David F | Apr 17 2020 1:03 utc | 97

Odd about 100. That's mine.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 17 2020 0:42 utc | 102

Typepad is smart enough to recognize a link mule. Don't be surprised if it next starts designating you rt or pepe.

Posted by: concerned | Apr 17 2020 1:04 utc | 98

"Now the US west is blaming its decoupling pain on China." --Peter AU1 @99

The dog barks, but the caravan moves on.

That "decoupling pain" is the pain of a terminal patient in the ICU "decoupling" from the machines that are keeping his body from decomposing. I wonder if it really matters who that patient blames for his pain? It is not like blamethrowing can change the outcome.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 17 2020 1:06 utc | 99

Prof K @8

This is my read also. Wall Street was near a fall. The latest bubble was close to popping.

The "national emergency" allowed for a 'safe landing'.

Bonus: it's all blamed on China.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 17 2020 1:10 utc | 100

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