Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 18, 2020

The New Anti-China Campaign Is Built On Lies

To avoid self-examination of the failures that let the U.S. exceed the covid-19 casualty numbers of every other nation the powers that be decided to blame someone else.

Trump's first attempt was to blame the World Health Organization for not providing all information. But 16 U.S. administration officials were embedded with the WHO in Geneva. They relayed real time updates of all information the WHO received.

As the Democrats and the media did not join Trump in blaming the WHO another scapegoat was needed. Everyone then agreed that it China would be the most convenient target.

The intensity of the current anti-China campaign reminds one of the run up to the war on Iraq. The people who now claim that 'China lied, people died' are the very same who ran the Iraq WMD campaign. But all the reports claiming Iraqi weapons of mass destruction were just fantasy. The reports of Chinese culpability are similar nonsense.

As this is an election year both parties try to associate the other side with the new villain:

“Donald Trump sent critical medical supplies to China as Americans continue to suffer. He needs to follow his supposed motto of America First,” American Bridge President Bradley Beychok said in a statement. “We’re making sure that voters across Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin know full well not only how badly Trump botched this crisis, but also how badly he bent the knee to China in the midst of it as well.”
“We are more than happy to let the American public decide whom they trust, President Trump or Beijing Joe Biden, to get tough on China,” said Brian O. Walsh, president of America First, in response to the new ad campaign by American Bridge. American Bridge said the ad is the first of its new offensive campaign targeting Trump, his company, business associates and adult children over their ties to China and other foreign investments.

The group said it plans on rolling out microtargeted digital ads on that theme as part of “an all-out assault on Trump and his family over their corruption — in China and other countries — involving foreign bribes, political favors, shady real estate investments, and parties with dictators.”

This will be bad for other important political issues:

Rania Khalek @RaniaKhalek - 19:27 UTC · Apr 17, 2020

The anti China hawkishness is going to drown out progressive momentum for universal healthcare and cancelling student debt. Like Russiagate, this new yellow peril will lead to greater military spending and more war. Sad so many who should know better can’t see that.

Some lawmakers want to allow random people to sue China over the 'damage it caused'. Other seek to default on the $1.2 trillion of debt the U.S. owns China.

To blame China the hawks are accusing it of three issues:

  • Lack of public hygiene
  • Insufficient information
  • Creating or spreading the virus by accident

The "wet market" in Wuhan did not have hygiene problems. A "wet market" is comparable to a farmers market (vid). It is "wet" in that it provides fresh products like fruits, vegetables, meat and fish. A "dry market" provides the complementary products like rice, flour, tea and sugar. China has yet to be overrun by super market chains. Some 40% of the Chinese people source their daily food at the wet markets.

The wet market in Wuhan was not the source of the epidemic. It did not and does not sell bats. The epidemic started in December at a time when bats hibernate. The first known case was not related to the market at all.

The U.S. claims that China did not inform it sufficiently. The timeline as published by China and confirmed by media reports does not support that claim.

On January 3 the head of the U.S. Center of Disease Control was personally informed by his Chinese counterpart that there was an outbreak of pneumonia of unknown cause in Wuhan. On January 8 the "unknown cause" was identified as a novel coronavirus. A full genome sequence of the virus was published on January 12 and preliminary testing kits were developed and made available in Wuhan. By January 13 another test and test protocol had been developed in Germany and on January 17 the WHO adopted its refined version.

In the U.S. the CDC insisted on developing its own test and failed by contaminating its test components. It then failed for more than a month to correct the issue.

The German Federal Health Ministry was recently asked if it perceived a lack of information from China or saw reason to criticize China over its changing case numbers. It responded (in German, my translation):

"The federal government is not aware that China held back any data." ... "Considering the interim development the adoption of different definitions of cases during the epidemic in China is comprehensible."

Another claim is that China somehow created the virus or let it escape from a laboratory in Wuhan where it was researching bat viruses.

But scientists see strong evidence that the novel coronavirus is a natural development and they do not believe that it leaked from a laboratory in Wuhan:

Edward Holmes, a biologist at the University of Sydney and a fellow of the respected Royal Society in London, said the Wuhan laboratory blamed by some for the pandemic does have specimens of the bat virus RaTG13, the closest relative of Covid-19 source SARS-CoV-2, but the two are not genetically linked.

RaTG13 strains, he says, are from the southern Chinese province of Yunnan, not the central city of Wuhan, the pandemic’s initial epicenter.
Genome tracing has revealed that the bat virus RaTG13 has at least 20 years of genetic divergence, or evolutionary change, from SARS-CoV-2, and possibly as much as 50 years, ruling it out as the source of the pandemic.

The claims against China made by both U.S. parties do not have a factual basis.

It is no wonder than that Chinese people are asking "What Do You Really Want From Us?"

Posted by b on April 18, 2020 at 17:43 UTC | Permalink

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Peter AU1 @81: "Being pumped full of steroids..."

I'd forgotten that steroids accelerate the reproduction of the covid. That means America's cops are probably getting crushed by this pandemic. The only way it could be worse is if the virus also targeted obese doughnut-munchers... oh, wait...

I am pretty sure if the covid were rampaging through America's constabulary we would not be hearing about it from the mass media or authorities. Such knowledge might give some people ideas.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 19 2020 0:51 utc | 101

@ Posted by: ben | Apr 19 2020 0:12 utc | 105

It's not that the American people cannot discern reality from propaganda. They can.

The problem is that the USA is an empire, and, for an empire, it is politically useful to project its inner contradictions on an external enemy which can be readily exterminated. We know that because that was exactly the case with the ancient Roman Empire: every time it plunged into another cycle of civil wars, the new (soon to be assassinated) emperor always tried to organize and widely propagandize a campaign to conquer Parthia (Persia). Would the Roman Empire survive it Severus Alexander invasion of Parthia (which burned whatever was left of the Roman money) was successful? We'll never know. But the logic was there, and it persisted until the Islamic Conquests ended all the imperial ambitions of the Roman Empire in the East ("Byzantine Empire").

Deep down, the American people really believe that a big hot war against either Russia or China (or both at the same time) will really solve all of its economic and social problems.

Posted by: vk | Apr 19 2020 0:52 utc | 102

103 Cont'd--

And of course the Fraud was mostly ignored by the regulatory agencies and courts except when it created a crisis as in 1987 and 1999. You know, I don't recall the Fed bailing out California after it was defrauded by ENRON. Some already know that living life within the Outlaw US Empire's a Fraud. Inslee called out Trump for his Fraud, but more governors needed to join him. There's an old Soviet joke--We pretend to work and they pretend to pay us. Global financial markets are all Fraudulent and ought to be closed. The fastest growing forms of entertainment--video games and porn--are also Fraud. And then there's Virtual Reality--the epitome of Fraud of the Rovian World where the Penultimate Fraud Pompeo offgasses daily.

Fortunately, there're enlightened people refusing to participate in the fraud any longer, some of very longstanding--Communities issuing their own economic script to keep wealth within their communities and people ensuring their public utilities remain public are but a few examples of people refusing to play the Fraudulent Game anymore. Small towns ought to become co-ops financially with their own public bank, as should big cities. Detach from the Money Power's tentacles and cease being its host, particularly as individuals. Cut up those credit (debt) cards and live within your means--you'll have more money to spend! And above all, be proactive and stand out by exposing the Fraud in your town--the Big Banks, Brokerage Houses, Big Box Stores, Sick Food Outlets, Politicos, and BigLie Media. Here's Hudson about the Fraud from an interview 1.5 years ago with an insight into what's now happening:

"So this is the same crisis that we were in then. It’s never been fixed, and it can’t be fixed until you get rid of the bad-debt problem. The bad debts require restructuring the way in which pensions are paid – to pay them out of current income, not financializing them. The economy has to be de-financialized, but I don’t see that on the horizon for a while. That’s s why I think that rather than a new crisis, there will be a slow shrinkage until there’s a break in the chain of payments. Then they’re going to call that the crisis.

"Hillary will say it’s the Russians who did it, but it really is Obama who did it. The Democratic Party leadership is in the hands of Wall Street, and has not done anything to prevent the same dynamics that caused the crisis in 2008 and are still causing the economy to shrink." [My Emphasis]

The chain has busted wide open so there's a massive crisis and it's China that's to blame.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 19 2020 0:53 utc | 103

A straw man is a fabricated argument. The CCP has accused the US Army of introducing the virus into China in October/November 2019. Not fabricated. Not a straw man. Truth.

From the Veterans Today article I referenced earlier -

"Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson Lijian Zhao has demanded US authorities reveal what they’re hiding about the origins of Covid-19, going as far as to suggest the coronavirus may have been brought to China by the US military.

Pointing to a video of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) director Robert Redfield apparently admitting the US had several deaths from Covid-19 before they were able to test for it, Zhao called on the American watchdog to come clean in a tweet posted on Thursday.

2/2 CDC was caught on the spot. When did patient zero begin in US? How many people are infected? What are the names of the hospitals? It might be US army who brought the epidemic to Wuhan. Be transparent! Make public your data! US owe us an explanation!

— Lijian Zhao 赵立坚 (@zlj517) March 12, 2020"

Posted by: Don Wills | Apr 19 2020 0:54 utc | 104

Try this for a statistic yank.

US total cases 738,830 Deaths 39,014 Deaths per million 118
China total cases 82,719 Deaths 4,632 Deaths per million 3

New cases yesterday US- 29,057 China - 27

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 19 2020 1:11 utc | 105

Better late than never, I guess. The Rent and Mortgage Cancellation Act seen as necessary over a month ago and was finally introduced by Minnesota Rep. Ilhan Omar last Friday. It looks well thought and fair, and IMO hard to argue against.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 19 2020 1:14 utc | 106

So our global elite controllers create a crisis. They then manage perceptions and give the people a menu of choices to blame. Political parties/government on Left vs right , globalism vs nationalism, China vs US , etc . They are all on the menu.

But nobody is allowed to peak behind the curtain to ID the real culprits, which are the above mentioned elites and the institutions and corporations they control. In this case Philanthropic institutions such as Gates and Rockefeller foundations, WHO, DARPA, NIH, , Faucii NIAID, CDC, Big Pharma, USAMIID, BARDA, CEPI, WEF, UN, IMF, World Bank, Central Banks , Universities and of course all of these entities close collaboration with China (Chinese CDC participated in Event 201)

Look at all the studies on viruses and vaccines the past 50 years, specifically gain of function studies these past 20 years and you will see these same organizations funding them. The collaboration between US , International and Chinese institutions and scientists is breathtaking. They make up the Pandemic Industrial Complex and are motivated not only by profit but also total control over the herd.

But go ahead, carry on and be distracted /entertained by the fake wrestling matches you choose. Ignorance is bliss , at least it is as long as you are allowed the luxury of keeping your head in the sand.

Posted by: Pft | Apr 19 2020 1:19 utc | 107

your SCMP links do not work.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 19 2020 1:19 utc | 108

Crazy US - this is not North Korea, Iran, Panama, etc.
This is China they are targeting, near five times bigger than the US.
The same China the US elites were happy to make fortunes trading and investing in the outsourcing of US jobs and industry.
So the same US elites think they can make more fortunes wreaking China's trade with the US?
Yea, more of the same, money more important than the people.

One comment above mentioned Jung. On his deathbed one of his last related dreams was of a near future when much of the world is destroyed, but 'fortunately not all of it'.

Posted by: AriusArmenian | Apr 19 2020 1:22 utc | 109

Piotr Berman @104: " sexual grooming of apparently underage..."

Whenever I run across anyone on the `Net claiming to be a 13 year old girl, I automatically translate that to mean overweight 45 year old male with poor dental hygiene. It is unlikely that I have ever been wrong about that.

As for generational turnover of a pathogen, it can indeed be forced faster in a lab than in nature. In nature, the first ferret to be infected then infects the rest of the local ferret population with generation 2 of the virus. You get no generation 3 until a ferret from the local population transmits it to another colony. In the lab the first ferret infects the next ferret with gen 2, and that ferret infects the third ferret with gen 3, and the third ferret infects the fourth with gen 4, and so on. Ferret 3 and subsequent ferrets are all isolated from ferret 1, so they are never infected with generation 1 or 2 and thus never have a chance to tune their immune systems until the lab techs expose them to the generation that they want. In the lab you can force a new generation every few days, depending upon how quickly the virus becomes contagious after infection. In the wild it is unlikely that the ferrets will line up and wait to interact with the next ferret until they are infectious with a new generation of the virus.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 19 2020 1:26 utc | 110

I don't know if this info's been posted yet. A Petition:

"We Call For Investigations Into The 'Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation' For Medical Malpractice & Crimes Against Humanity."

It's already passed the threshold required for TrumpCo to provide a response with 274,258 signatures as of now. Apparently, there's evidence proving "Gates, UNICEF & WHO have already been credibly accused of intentionally sterilizing Kenyan children through the use of a hidden HCG antigen in tetanus vaccines," which is being used as a key point in calling for an investigation. I admit to not paying much attention to the ongoing vaccination debate at MoA.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 19 2020 1:28 utc | 111

To me vaccinations stooped a lot of people being deformed or dying. One or two kids at school had a short leg and so forth.
For american antivaxers it is the ultimate evil. I doubt much that Gates and WHO are up to something sinister unless Gates is just trying to make a buck but I don't think so.
Lot of people dying from easily cured diseases and parasites in the third world and Gates seems to be putting his money towards this.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 19 2020 1:35 utc | 112

while 'B' post called out the obvious antichina propaganda drivel coming from US and it's vassals , now even Col Patrick Lang from SST blog openly join the antichina bandwagon in his website. Every comment questioning him will be regarded as chinese troll or sympathizer.

it is due time for everyone to see what the Colonel really is , a sad old man living in his exceptionalist american empire illusion , so fragile this illusion that he attack anyone questioning his cultish devotion to american empire.

our resident poster here , james , and B himself who posted in SST , know how rabid the colonel and his right wing supporters in SST attacking ppl with critical thinking ..

and one other blog SNAFU whose owner is black american , openly posted racist anti china articles even taking a laugh when the whole ordeal started in china telling everyone to 'kick them when they are down'.. Now when the good old USA got sick and mass graves in NY were shown by Media , he got silent

Posted by: milomilo | Apr 19 2020 1:37 utc | 113

There are thousands and thousands of wet markets in the United States.

'Whole Foods' (Amazon subsidiary) is a wet market. See:
Whole Foods Seafood Department

'Walmart Groceries' is also a wet market. See:
Walmart Seafoods

Posted by: blues | Apr 19 2020 1:57 utc | 114

As opposed to all the pointless arguing over "who created the virus" - which as I said before is utterly irrelevant except in terms of the potential consequences on the rest of us if we end up in nuclear war over a bunch of speculation and US intelligence community BS - here are two videos from a genuine doctor who practices in a hospital in internal medicine, critical care, and especially pulmonary medicine which actually precisely explain the pathophysiology (important caveat: to the degree we can be confident of it, which is not certain) and also what being ventilated means... Highly worth viewing. His drawing skills aren't wonderful, but they're good enough to follow his careful exposition of the bits and pieces of lungs and hearts and the chemicals involved in the coronavirus.

How Coronavirus (COVID19) Kills Some People (But Not Others) - I'm a Lung Doctor (MEDICAL TRUTH)

Do Ventilators Save Coronavirus (COVID-19) Patient's Lives?

The scary takeaway from the latter video: only about 14 percent of virus patients on ventilators make it out alive. I previous mentioned studies showing 50-50 to 70-30 against surviving - this is a much worse outcome.

According to Cuomo, New York state is in the following situation:

Intubations were down by 48 patients, but there are still 4,246 patients hooked up to ventilators in New York hospitals, he said. “Intubations are down which is very good news,” he said. Roughly 80 percent of patients who are intubated or hooked up to a ventilator do not survive, he said.

Anyone remember how the exact same conspiracy theories about who did what circulated when HIV was first discovered? How'd that work out for all of you? Know anything more now than you did then? Thought not...

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 19 2020 1:59 utc | 115

Realist - thanks for answering my question. How many more here believe the CCP on this issue?

Posted by: Don Wills | Apr 19 2020 2:00 utc | 116

Dick @ 84 said;"The US needs to step down from their pedestal and rejoin the human race as equals. Belief in your own exceptionalism leads to hubris which leads to arrogance, leading to an overestimation of your own capabilities and a fatal underestimation of the capabilities of your adversary. Americans and especially their government are living in a fantasy with crumbling foundations."

Absolutely Dick..Unfortunately, introspection isn't understood here...

Posted by: ben | Apr 19 2020 2:01 utc | 117 Coronavirus Outbreak May Have Started as Early as September, Scientists Say
"Something's Not Right Here Folks"? | A Look at USA 2009 H1N1 Virus Compared to China 2020 Corona Virus

Posted by: Winston | Apr 19 2020 2:07 utc | 118

The research SCMP refers to is here.

Interestingly, lymphocytopenia, as a diagnostic indicator, is common in COVID-19 patients. Xiong et al. found upregulation of apoptosis, autophagy, and p53 pathways in PBMC of COVID-19 patients.3 Some studies reported that lymphocytopenia might be related to mortality, especially in patients with low levels of CD3+, CD4+, and CD8+ T lymphocytes.4,5 Lymphocytopenia was also found in the Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS) cases. MERS-CoV can directly infect human primary T lymphocytes and induce T-cell apoptosis through extrinsic and intrinsic apoptosis pathways, but it cannot replicate in T lymphocytes.6 However, it is unclear whether SARS-CoV-2 can also infect T cells, resulting in lymphocytopenia. ...

...Based on the results of pseudovirus and live virus infection, here we proved that (1) SARS-CoV-2 could infect T cells, (2) SARS-CoV-2 infected T cells through receptor-dependent, S protein-mediated membrane fusion, and (3) infection could be inhibited by EK1 peptide. However, we observed a very low expression level of hACE2 in T cells; therefore, we further proposed that a novel receptor might mediate SARS-CoV-2 entry into T cells. Similar to MERS-CoV, SARS-CoV-2 infection of T cells is abortive.

It appears the SARS-CoV-2 is m,ore akin to MERS coronavirus in attacking T cell than HIV. Also makes the so called French genome research say it has added HIV a load of crap.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 19 2020 2:26 utc | 119

@126 I used to get all my bats and pangolins from Walmart but the quality has gone down lately. Now I use Amazon.

Posted by: dh | Apr 19 2020 2:27 utc | 120

Florin @ 3 cited the ZH post with Dr. Luc Montagnier as saying the virus was man made [....] that was accidentally released from the lab in Wuhan, China.

Dr. Fauci disagrees with Montagnier and Trump:


US expert shoots down coronavirus Chinese Lab theory floated by Trump.

Dr. Anthony Fauci says scientific research has convinced him COVID-19 originated in bats and jumped to humans

America's top expert on infectious diseases rejected suggestions the coronavirus could have originated in a Chinese laboratory, slapping down a theory floated by Donald Trump and his allies.

Dr Anthony Fauci, whose relationship with the president has appeared frayed as they have presented regular White House briefings together, said scientific research has convinced him it originated in bats and jumped to humans.[.]

Dr Fauci said "A group of highly-qualified evolutionary virologists looked at the sequences in bats as they evolve. The mutations that it took to get to the point where it is now is totally consistent with a jump of a species from an animal to a human" [.]

the debate will continue.

Posted by: Likklemore | Apr 19 2020 2:33 utc | 121

Peter AU1 @133

Or perhaps the MERS coronavirus was a prior version of SARS MkII that also has an added HIV spike?

Maybe the versioning goes like so: SARS MkI --> SARS MkII (MERS) --> SARS MkIII (covid virus).

I wonder what those crazy guys at Fort Detrick have cooked up for SARS MkIV? We probably won't know for a couple more years.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 19 2020 2:37 utc | 122

Does this make anyone else go "hmm?"?
Does this make anyone else do a double-take?

Should this be a eureka moment?

"The Pine Street Inn was following up a small cluster of cases last week and tested 397 people to discover that 146 were confirmed to have the deadly flu-like virus, also known as COVID-19."

"Dr. Jim O'Connell, president of Boston Health Care for the Homeless Program, which brings medical care to the city's shelters, said the discovery of such a high number of asymptomatic cases at the Pine Street Inn caught health officials off guard.

'It was like a double knockout punch, he tells WFXT. 'The number of positives was shocking, but the fact that 100 percent of the positives had no symptoms was equally shocking.' "

Is there a strain of Covid-19 that is asymptomatic, as in it behaves like Cow Pox to Small Pox?
Cow Pox was used as the first vaccine, ever. It was the vaccine against Small Pox.

Perhaps their symptoms are yet to appear or

Posted by: librul | Apr 19 2020 2:54 utc | 123


Had meant to add that perhaps an entirely different coronavirus had hit the shelter some months ago
and that gave them some immunity NOW for the Covid-19.

I think I recall that the 1918 Influenza hit the young and healthy disproportionately hard
as, it is theorized, a less virulent form had been going around several months before and
the young and healthy were able to shake that less virulent form off while the elderly were
not and the elderly gained resistance while the young and healthy did not.

Posted by: librul | Apr 19 2020 3:03 utc | 124

Don Wills @129: How many more here believe the CCP on this issue?

As this is an international blog dealing with international issues, why would you be surprised that there are people here that believe CCP? How much more credible is USA/Empire which has a sordid history that includes: lying to it's people and the world so they could attack Iraq; engaging in a proxy war against Syria - including supporting ISIS; has instigated many coups that installed dictators; famously doesn't keep its word (promising Russia not to move NATO borders "one inch" eastward; pretending to be even-handed in the Israel-Palestinian conflict, terminating the JCPOA, etc.); imprisons journalists (Assange) and whistle-blowers; is run by an unaccountable Deep-State, etc.

Furthermore, the Thucydides Trap argues for USA as the culprit if it was man-made and released maliciously:

... the Thucydides Trap says that as a rising power challenges the dominance of an established power, that dominant power is likely to respond with violence.

We've discussed the Thucydides Trap at moa many times along with the Empire's insistence on a "New World Order" and full-spectrum dominance that helps to ensure that it NWO comes to fruition. USA does not appear to be willing to allow China to develop into a rival.

Lastly, even if the origin of the virus is completely innocent, USA/Trump has played the emergency in a way that has helped their Wall Street and Corporate friends while blaming China for everything. The hate now directed at China is a great as, or greater, than Russiagate.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 19 2020 3:05 utc | 125


The research I quoted above I think shoots down the frogs who where also trying to put the HIV coronavirus on China.
I looked up this Montagnier and it was actually a Jean-Claude Perez that did the research.
He posts or links a number of anti china MSM pices at his twitter account.

He was posting his china dunnit reasearch to the scientists social media site Researchgate.

"ResearchGate is a European commercial social networking site for scientists and researchers[3] to share papers, ask and answer questions, and find collaborators"

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 19 2020 3:05 utc | 126

William Gruff
Could well be. US military has a huge number of labs around the world. All those labs off US territory are black sites. Like Guantanamo Bay, US laws do not apply.
I doubt all those sites are kept occupied giving grannies flue shots.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 19 2020 3:22 utc | 127

William Gruff | Apr 19 2020 0:51 utc | 109

"I am pretty sure if the covid were rampaging through America's constabulary we would not be hearing about it from the mass media or authorities. Such knowledge might give some people ideas."

Agreed. A shortage of police right now would not bode well for the general populace. I noted a week or so ago that I am hardly hearing sirens lately. I live a 1/2 mile from a police precinct and fire station. Normally I would hear sirens every few hours. Lately, 2 or 3 times every couple of days.

One would expect some decrease in activity due to less car accidents and the like, but on the other hand, one would expect an increase in health emergencies. It seems to me that the amount of activity is about 15-20% of what used to be the norm.

I find it very odd.

Posted by: David F | Apr 19 2020 3:27 utc | 128

vk | Apr 19 2020 0:52 utc | 110

"It's not that the American people cannot discern reality from propaganda. They can."

That seems a dubious statement to me. I think a few can, the vast majority cannot. There are some whoppers out there that the vast majority of people firmly believe in.

Posted by: David F | Apr 19 2020 3:31 utc | 129

Operation Covid-19 is the Shock Doctrine on steroids on steroids, global sized. And the latest example of the "blowback" that always seems to follow our dead-brained plots & schemes. See: 9/11. Trouble is, the worse the blowback is the better it is for the criminally insane boobs who cooked up the original scheme. See: Iraq War 2003 'til ???. Operation Covid-19 was surely not intended to infect and kill sooo many people. Just enough. But now it seems, the more the merrier. There is still some unlooted $$$ out there in the world. Or am I being TOO cynical? Is that even possible?
What is to be done??

Posted by: mrtmbrnmn | Apr 19 2020 3:42 utc | 130

librul | Apr 19 2020 2:54 utc | 140

"Does this make anyone else go "hmm?"?
Does this make anyone else do a double-take?"

Indeed it does. Anytime I see a link to the dailymail being used as a legitimate reference for proof of anything, i do go 'hmm'.

You might as well use the 'national inquirer' or the jerry springer show, or better yet geraldo.

Posted by: David F | Apr 19 2020 3:48 utc | 131

@143 sad;"USA does not appear to be willing to allow China to develop into a rival."
"Lastly, even if the origin of the virus is completely innocent, USA/Trump has played the emergency in a way that has helped their Wall Street and Corporate friends while blaming China for everything. The hate now directed at China is a great as, or greater, than Russiagate."

No doubt rabbit, and that first sentence applies to many other nations over decades. The U$A "Business uber alles" plan will not tolerate competition...

Posted by: ben | Apr 19 2020 3:51 utc | 132

ZeroHedge MOST Anti-China Campaign Is Built On Lies

Kyle Bass Blasts China's "Most Lying, Coercive, Manipulative Government" For "Knowingly Infecting The World"

Posted by: JC | Apr 19 2020 4:12 utc | 133

Even if you totally disagree, read the lies...

Epoch Times Kyle Bass: On US and China Fallout and Recovery from COVID 19, and Hong Kong’s Looming Banking Crisis

Posted by: JC | Apr 19 2020 4:20 utc | 134

For anyone interested, I found just looking at the raw numbers from worldometer was of limited value to me, so I created a spreadsheet to look at various scenarios and to see trends. Granted, the data provided is likely inaccurate in a number of ways, but it has been mostly consistent, so a trend can be ascertained.

On April 10
Infect Rate 19.78%
Hosp Rate 9.77%
Death Rate 3.95%
Ser, Crit 2.33%
Rec,Disch 9.77%

On April 18
Infect Rate 19.85%
Hosp Rate 9.24%
Death Rate 5.28%
Ser, Crit 2.15%
Rec,Disch 9.24%

Infection rate and serious, critical rate insignificant change. Significant drop in hospitalization rate and recovery, discharge rate. Large increase in the death rate.

Posted by: David F | Apr 19 2020 4:40 utc | 135

Based on the above info here are two scenarios that I consider best case rates and results if everyone returns to normal in the very near future. The best case scenarios are based on the actual rates being 1/16th and 1/32nd of what is known via worldometer. I actually believe that these best case rates are unrealistically low, but I provide them just to show that even with unrealistically low rates, it is still an unacceptable amount of preventable sickness and death.

At 1/16th of reported as of 4/18
Infected 1.24% 4,057,143
Hosp 0.58% 1,888,686
Death 0.33% 1,079,111

At 1/32nd of reported as of 4/18
Infected 0.62% 2,028,572
Hosp 0.29% 944,343
Death 0.17% 539,555

Posted by: David F | Apr 19 2020 4:52 utc | 136

US new confirmed cases have been around the 30,000 since around April 3rd. Possibly due to lockdown but perhaps due to number of tests that can be performed or are available per day.
US test rate is approx five tests per confirmed case.
30,000 confirmed cases equals 150,0000 tests per day.
How many tests can be performed per day in the US. How many test kits do the US have. 150k tests per day is over a million tests per week.
Over one million test kits per week required to achieve 30,000 confirmed cases per day.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 19 2020 5:04 utc | 137

@112 Don Wills "A straw man is a fabricated argument. The CCP has accused the US Army of introducing the virus into China in October/November 2019. Not fabricated. Not a straw man. Truth."


Once more for the slow people: If **you** ask **b** if he agrees with that accusation then **you** have just erected a straw man argument.

As in: the moment you do that then you are no longer arguing with b - instead you are insisting on changing the topic of the argument to something that you, yourself, have constructed.

It makes no difference what the merits of that argument are, nor does it matter how many other people consider it plausible, the very fact that **you** sought to question **b** when he had not mentioned it makes YOUR post a straw man argument.

Now this is the second time I have pointed this out to you, and you still don't get it.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Apr 19 2020 5:08 utc | 138


It is not clear to me what you are saying. Are you saying you are skeptical because you don't think we can do that many tests per week?

I have emailed the worldometer folks twice, once to ask them to clarify the testing numbers, and another time to ask them to define their categories. As of a few days ago, they did add a definition page, which helps to clarify some of the numbers. They did not clarify the testing numbers, probably because they don't know, they are just compiling the numbers.

The biggest weakness to my analysis is the tested cases. As far as I can discern, the vast majority of the testing is on people who are sick, or who likely had contact with a sick person.

If that is the case then the infection rate is likely inaccurate, and probably the hospitalization rate as well. The infection rate is likely much higher, due to infected people not getting tested. The hospitalization rate is likely too high for the same reason. I think the death rate is pretty accurate as it is a ratio of confirmed cases to dead people.

My purpose for doing this is to try to make a reasonable assessment of the situation with the limited data available, and due to a lack of accurate data one cannot be certain of the my results. Given what I have to work with this is the best I can do.

Posted by: David F | Apr 19 2020 5:26 utc | 139

Look, Don, I'll try one more time to explain this to you:
1) b spends an article taking apart the accusations that some Americans has levelled against the Chinese government.
2) You then insisted on raising the issue of accusations that some Chinese have levelled against the US government.

Get it?

This article *isn't* about what the Chinese have accused the US government of doing.
This article *is* about what the Americans are accusing the Chinese government of doing.

To insist on arguing over the former is therefore The Dictionary Definition Of A Straw Man Argument.

Still don't get it?

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Apr 19 2020 5:30 utc | 140

David F
I wasn't knocking what you had done. I was quite interested.

I had also been looking at the US numbers for some time - how new cases per day had quickly risen to around the 30,000 and have stayed around that number - sometimes more sometimes less.
I had not thought about the number of tests and test kits required until now.
US has been raiding equipment from all over the world but I am wondering where that number of test kits are coming from.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 19 2020 5:47 utc | 141


The frustrating part of trying to understand this, and determine just how serious it is, it the inability to get some solid numbers.

Are we only testing health care, emergency personnel, politicians and people who are sick enough to show up to a hospital? Is ANY of the general public getting tested?

Are the confirmed cases just the people who are sick enough to show up to a hospital and those that died at home (nursing home deaths mostly)?

If confirmed cases includes other people besides the above, what number of them are actually getting hospitalized?

The worldometer has a mild/critical statistic but it doesn't define those two categories. Does mild mean stay at home sick and critical mean hospital? Or does mild mean hospital and critical mean ICU?

Without answers to these questions it is hard to do any real analysis.

This has been going on for a month now, someone should be able to give us some decent answers to these questions, I don't expect 100% accuracy in an unfolding emergency, but better than they have provided so far. They certainly have been compiling information from day one, why are they not sharing it?

I wish someone at a press conference would just say, "Fuck off with the prevaricating bullshit, give us some answers! Give us some hard statistics!" Albeit in a much politer way.

If anyone can find any answers to these questions, not speculation, but some actual data or at least some best faith data one can find, or if anyone else has done any analysis and wants to share it then please let me know.

Perhaps we can figure out some things together.

Posted by: David F | Apr 19 2020 6:07 utc | 142

Re: Scott Ritter

From memory he was blatantly setup. It seemed fairly obvious at the time.

Fuck with US & we will fuck you.

From 2003 -
Target: Scott Ritter. The War Party gets ugly

Posted by: ted01 | Apr 19 2020 6:11 utc | 143


Just found that the critical cases at worldometer are the ICU cases. Still not clear if mild means stay at home sick, or hospitalization, or a combination of both.

Posted by: David F | Apr 19 2020 6:25 utc | 144

Peter AU1 @122

"...To me vaccinations stooped a lot of people being deformed or dying. One or two kids at school had a short leg and so forth."

I remember kids in leg braces at school & taking the polio vaccine - a drop in a sugar cube.

The thing that interests me now is the number of vaccinations children have by the time they are 18 years old.
Just one of those things that make me pause for thought. I don't think those born in the 50's & 60's had anywhere near the number - but I could be wrong.

Immunization schedule:-
Birth: HepB: Hepatitis B vaccine. Ideally, the first dose is given within 24 hours of birth, but kids not previously immunized can get it at any age. Some low birth weight infants will get it at 1 month or when they're discharged from the hospital.
1–2 months: HepB: Second dose should be given 1 to 2 months after the first dose.
2 months: TaP: Diphtheria, tetanus, and acellular pertussis vaccine
Hib: Haemophilus influenzae type b vaccine
IPV: Inactivated poliovirus vaccine
PCV: Pneumococcal conjugate vaccine
RV: Rotavirus vaccine
4 months: DTaP
6 months: DTaP
Hib: This third dose may be needed, depending on the brand of vaccine used in previous Hib immunizations.
RV: This third dose may be needed, depending on the brand of vaccine used in previous RV immunizations.
6 months and annually: influenza (Flu)
6–18 months: HepB
12–15 months : Hib
MMR: Measles, mumps, and rubella (German measles) vaccine
Chickenpox (varicella)
12–23 months
HepA: Hepatitis A vaccine; given as 2 shots at least 6 months apart
15–18 months
4–6 years
11–12 years
HPV: Human papillomavirus vaccine, given in 2 shots over a 6- to 12-month period. And a booster dose is
recommended at age 16.
16–18 years: Meningococcal B vaccine (MenB)

Disclaimer: I am not an Anti-Vaxxer.

Posted by: ted01 | Apr 19 2020 6:49 utc | 145

David F

I had a look at ratios of confirmed cases to deaths. Spain, Italy France are very roughly around the 10% mark. US has much better ratio of confirmed cases to deaths around 5% so it seems their testing is better than those three countries.
Another problem with stats will be overworked medical staff. They will be more concerned with saving people than dotting I's and crossing T's. China has gone through the book work now they have got the situation under control and added quite a few more to the coronavirus deaths.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 19 2020 6:50 utc | 146

David F @ 162

For answers to your questions David, at least as to do with american statistics, for this virus can be found in the first post of this thread, by Chris. Perhaps you skipped over it? Their link to a quite revealing video is quite telling.

Posted by: aye, myself & me | Apr 19 2020 6:55 utc | 147

- Steve Bannon (who is known for his hate for China): China has blood on his hands.

Posted by: Willy2 | Apr 19 2020 7:00 utc | 148

JC @ 154

Bass is just salty that he got hammered on the shorts he's held on Asian currencies since 2015. He's an Asian perma-bear who is always wrong and his only success was shorting the obvious US mortgage scam in 2008. He's been proven to be almost entirely clueless about Asia though. Kyle Bass + Falun Gong Epoch Times = ZH heavy rotation these days.

Posted by: sad canuck | Apr 19 2020 7:07 utc | 149


That is a lot. I had forgotten the polio vaccine was the sugar cube but that came back soon as you mentioned it. I think we had a shot or two for something as small kids but cant remember what for.
all went through measles mumps and chicken. Girls got a shot of something as teenagers, think it was rubella but my memory isn't the best. Then we got TB shot as young teen. That was about it.
Wife took our kids in for all their shots but certainly not as many as on your list. Kids are all into their 30s now. I got a feeling there were shots for whooping cough in the mix somewhere.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 19 2020 7:11 utc | 150

@all -

again had to delete some 30 comments which were spreading nonsense from zerohedge or other crazed sources.

Is it too much to ask commentators to verify claims and their sources before posting them here?

Luc Montagnier, who once won a Nobel price, is NOT a reliable source on anything. Anyone who insists on posting his nonsense here will get banned.

Posted by: b | Apr 19 2020 7:44 utc | 152

Peter AU1 | Apr 19 2020 6:50 utc | 149

I get the overworked staff, and the emergency situation making it difficult to get the full picture. But they can do better than they have. Specifics on who is getting tested? ie only sick people or them and other parts of the population. How many confirmed cases require hospitalization?

The answer to those two questions would go a long way to clarifying some things.

I think right now nearly 100% of confirmed cases, where they didnt find a dead body and diagnose them afterward as having the virus, are requiring hospitalization.

aye, myself & me | Apr 19 2020 6:55 utc | 150

He didn't have anything to say but nonsense. I see it is now deleted.

Posted by: David F | Apr 19 2020 8:03 utc | 153

David F

Where do worldometers get US stats from. Secretary of health....
Alex Michael Azar II (/ˈəzɑːr/; born June 17, 1967) is an American attorney, former pharmaceutical lobbyist and executive, and current member of Donald Trump's cabinet who serves as the United States Secretary of Health and Human Services. Azar was nominated to his post by President Donald Trump on November 13, 2017, and confirmed by the United States Senate on January 24, 2018.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 19 2020 8:26 utc | 154

I want to return about these conspiracy theories about human made COVID-19 (let's disregard the 'accidental release' theories here) to make a point I consider important. They are bad focus points causing unnecessary controversy. With 9/11 the inside job theories were controversial and they distracted attention(focus) from what matters most: that some groups were using 9/11 as a golden opportunity to shift to a very oppressive internal and aggressive foreign policy. This main issue is not controversial, you can all agree on that. Whether some players went further in actually causing the trigger event to occur is a side issue. So in this case, focus on (domestic)shifts in balance of power. Shifts in control over financial transactions, shifts in wealth, shifts in surveillance. You can actually agree on what matters instead of disagreeing about what is secondary.
Look for the shifts in balance of power.

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Apr 19 2020 8:40 utc | 155

- Agree. ZeroHedge goes "off the rails" / "off the deep end" every now and then. On top of that: ZeroHedge is so "Austrian School" and the Austrians have - from time to time - such weird (economic) ideas. The followers of Keynes have a MUCH better understanding of the economic world/reality.

Posted by: Willy2 | Apr 19 2020 8:45 utc | 156

Take privacy. I like privacy but maybe it is important to give some of that up. Right, so we agree that may be a valuable thing.
Well we could look to limiting the impact of these changes but then we are still giving up privacy for free.
What could we get instead to compensate the shift in power balance ? Well, If the main players in silicon valley were split up in harmless parts and their AI projects became entirely public domain, NSA datacenters were demolished except for the bare necessities and the privacy of major financial players were lifted then I'd consider giving up some of my own privacy.

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Apr 19 2020 8:45 utc | 157

- It's correct that China is "buying influence" in e.g. Australia. But australians are currently very "vulnerable"/"susceptible" to "foreign influence" from e.g. China.
- The current australian government (with prime minister Scott Morrison) has only a (very) small majority in the australian federal parliament. and that makes him very "vulnerable" to "influences" from e.g. the "chinese community" in Australia.
- A LOT OF members of the australian parliaments (Australia is a federation like the US or Germany) have one or more socalled "investment properties". (Property is the australian name for Real Estate) these members of parliament borrowed money and need to pay interest and pay down principal every month for that "Investment Property". And that makes those members of parliament VERY "vulnerable" to "foreign influence" (e.g. the "chinese community"). Those members will try to get every cent/penny/pfennig to stave off a personal bankruptcy.
- The US is building a "ring of steel" around China & Russia and by bribing australians (see above) China is conducting "A- Symmetrical Warfar" against what it considers to be an existential thread to China.

Posted by: Willy2 | Apr 19 2020 9:06 utc | 158


For decoupling from China, Santa brought Trump an early Christmas present... or perhaps the easter bunny delivered it. Whichever it was they brought him everything he could wish for with COVID-19.
Now Trump, the bipartisan duopoly, MSM back by so called alternate media and social media all leading the suckers in China dunnit. Goering would be green with envy.

The bailout has been and gone ... or I guess the printing presses are still smoking while their churning out so much 'quantitative easing'.
Vassals are now starting to part company with China and stopping any china investments. Boris thinking he was somehow independent and could bring Chinese 5G has learnt his lesson. Vassals will soon be forced to sanction China as EU did with Russia.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 19 2020 9:08 utc | 159


Evil China. Corrupting our fine upstanding politicians. Shame on them.

On the other hand, no doubt here same as elsewhere, kick backs are the price of doing business. No kick back, no business.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 19 2020 9:20 utc | 160

Tuyzentfloot @159

"...They are bad focus points causing unnecessary controversy."

Correct. It is the outcome, the result that matters.

From April 14 Debunking Some Ideas About The Virus

B posted "Science will eventually solve that conundrum. Until it does there is little to gain from further speculation about it."

Posted by: ted01 | Apr 19 2020 9:27 utc | 161

I don't know about the French guy, but I don't think anyone is disputing that the COVID-19 virus has a glycoprotein spike like the one the HIV virus uses to enter T cells. It seems that the debate is only about how that spike got there. The only "proof" that I've seen offered is that some of the changes have been seen in a sample collected from a bat in 2013, and for the lab-genesis theory to be correct then that sample would have to be of a lab-altered virus too. Nobody could have possibly been thinking about weaponizing coronaviruses way back in the distant past of 2013, could they? Did they even know what viruses were back then? I think they were still using stone tools.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 19 2020 10:33 utc | 162

@Julian, you're spot-on! Clueless Biden is walking into a trap if he and his party adhere to "the blame-China" meme.

Posted by: Steve | Apr 19 2020 10:39 utc | 163

Generally people have their established bias and engage with views that support their beloved viewpoint, they dislike views that challenge theirs. The alt media attitude is generally distrustful of the US government, some look to Russia and others China for their knight in shining armor. But is that realistic or hopeful?

The silk road is touted as a trade network to help the developing world. Is it though? Or is it purely to enable China to dominate world trade paying off 3rd world leaders to rape their economies and sell their wares, just as the US has done?

5G is a popular meme now, personally I do not believe the correlation. However I did read an article that outlined the coincidence of the advent of radio, radar and satellites and viral epidemics correlating. It also pointed out correctly that we are electrical beings, so who knows?

As such it is absurd to insult people for holding an alternative view to our own, how do we know we are right? Have we never changed our minds on any issue. All sides of any viewpoint need to be debated and allowed to thrive or fall on their merits. How else do we expand our own knowledge?

Posted by: Rancid | Apr 19 2020 10:43 utc | 164

Some of our best scientists are claiming it could have been in Britain as early as September.
Huge numbers in the comments believe that they had it in the last part of last year.
An appalling and debilitating cough was going around.
A terrible cough - choking - I had it myself.
Added to that there are widespread reports of deaths in the USA - suddenly from nowhere came deaths from 'vaping' and severe fatal pneumonia.
And of course thousands of the deaths we are seeing now are due to a misdiagnosis of what this virus does.
The complete misuse of ventilators which seem to be causing of death of many.
They are a death trap.
This virus does not cause pneumonia - it is causing hypoxia (I think this is the right word).
This is why the lung scans are completely different and why Anti malarial and high altitude medications are working.
This virus is attacking the red blood cells and stopping oxigination to the body.
As with carbon monoxide for instance.
The ventilators do not do the job and as the oxygen is increasingly forced into the lungs - it destroys them.
Very noticable that Boris Johnstone was not ventilated but given the correct treatment of an excellent mask form oxygen relief.
Why did the medical profession fall for the story of ventilation and pneumonia, when right at the beginning many many scientists and others were saying that lack of oxygen in the blood was the problem?.
I wonder how much money has been spent on ventilators - the hysteria - when other supplies were more needed.
Plus the best oxygen masks.
Talking of conspiracy theories....
One has to point out.
How conveniently this is killing the 'useless eaters'.
How it is going to save billions in pensions and offer relief to pension funds in some difficulty.
If a virus for this purpoe was to be created - it appears to be this with bells on.

Posted by: Emily | Apr 19 2020 10:53 utc | 165

people might find this interesting to read.
mind its science based and also involves a lot of working together of people whom are of many races.

the content of this? We have no idea what we do, we don't test enough, we don't test for all of the symptoms, we treat all the issues with the same tools etc etc etc.
All the while we have no fucking idea what it is and how it works.

Posted by: Sabine | Apr 19 2020 11:01 utc | 166

Rancid @169

Your assumptions about China's intentions is based entirely upon projecting your own society's evil deeds and intentions onto China. "This is what I do, so it must be what they would do too."

There is no evidence to support your assumptions. There is no evidence that China is following in the imperialist footsteps of the US and UK. The US had death squads enforcing imperial policy as far back as 1900 in the Philippines, and death squads remain a mainstay of imperialist control to this day, though killer robots (drones) are starting to play a role. China has never formed death squads in any of the places they are developing "Belt and Road" projects, much less killed anyone by drone.

Trying to equate China's international development projects with American style imperialism is the very worst kind of false equivalency because there is no trace of equivalency there to begin with except what is in your own mass media jingoism driven imagination.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 19 2020 11:10 utc | 167

does anyone wants to speculate on this, while we are all speculative of all sorts of things?
this is from September 2019. :)

Posted by: Sabine | Apr 19 2020 11:10 utc | 168

Posted by: Rancid | Apr 19 2020 10:43 utc | 169 As such it is absurd to insult people for holding an alternative view to our own

It's not when the idiots have *no fucking evidence.*

Perhaps you've heard the phrase: "Everyone has an opinion. Everyone also has an asshole." No one gives a crap about your opinion - only your reasons for same. Most people don't have any. There's hard intelligence and then there's actual evidence. Come up with either or GTFO.

Speculation may be permitted as long as it is *labeled* as such. Asserting *speculation* and *theories* and *opinions* as *fact* renders one an idiot.

For the record:
1) I don't believe the Chinese *or* the US *government* about anything - except when they say they're doing something for their own benefit.
2) I don't mind *considering* *any* conspiracy theory - as long as it makes *some* *logical sense* to begin with, and has at least *some* modicum of *evidence*.
3) There's a difference in the *quality* of "conspiracy theories" - there's the theory that the US government knew about 9/11 before it happened - and then there's the theory that Trump is a lizard alien. Most people can't tell the difference. They can also drum up tons of *bullshit* "evidence" to support the latter. I suspect a lot of people here actually give David Icke some credence...even Jesse Ventura took him apart on his TV show...

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 19 2020 11:14 utc | 169

Hard for me to believe people still believe in privacy here!
using a computer? using a card for payment? taking a plane or a train? where exactly do you find privacy?

Posted by: Mina | Apr 19 2020 11:15 utc | 170

William Gruff

From the research I quoted earlier SARS-CoV cannot attack T cells whereas MERS-CoV and SARS-CoV-2 do.

A typical presentation of MERS-CoV disease is fever, cough and shortness of breath. Pneumonia is a common finding, but not always present. Gastrointestinal symptoms, including diarrhoea, have also been reported. Severe illness can cause respiratory failure that requires mechanical ventilation and support in an intensive care unit. The virus appears to cause more severe disease in older people, people with weakened immune systems, and those with chronic diseases such as renal disease, cancer, chronic lung disease, and diabetes.

Approximately 35% of patients with MERS have died...(of confirmed cases)

SARS No strait up description of Symptoms at WHO.

Symptoms are flu-like symptoms and may include fever, muscle pain, lethargy, cough, sore throat, and other nonspecific symptoms. The only symptom common to all patients appears to be a fever above 38 °C (100 °F). SARS may eventually lead to shortness of breath and pneumonia; either direct viral pneumonia or secondary bacterial pneumonia.[citation needed]

The average incubation period for SARS is 4–6 days, although rarely it could be as short as 1 day or as long as 14 days

The primary route of transmission for SARS-CoV is contact of the mucous membranes with respiratory droplets or fomites. While diarrhea is common in people with SARS, the fecal–oral route does not appear to be a common mode of transmission.[

For a case to be considered probable, a chest X-ray must be positive for atypical pneumonia or respiratory distress syndrome.

SARS-CoV is most infectious in severely ill patients, which usually occurs during the second week of illness. This delayed infectious period meant that quarantine was highly effective; people who were isolated before day five of their illness rarely transmitted the disease to others.[5]

Antiviral medications are used as well as high doses of steroids to reduce swelling in the lungs.

Some of the more serious damage caused by SARS may be due to the body's own immune system reacting in what is known as cytokine storm.

SARS-CoV-2 looks very similar to or has features of both SARS and MERS, far more contagious but not so deadly. I guess the contagious part is due to fast build up in throat and nasal passages.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 19 2020 11:31 utc | 171

Posted by: Emily | Apr 19 2020 10:53 utc | 170 This virus does not cause pneumonia - it is causing hypoxia (I think this is the right word).

There is hypoxemia and hypoxia. See that Youtube video I posted above which describes the pathophysiology involved.

"This virus is attacking the red blood cells and stopping oxigination to the body."

Maybe. The doctor in the video I posted disputes that. Is he right? I don't think anyone is sure. What is clear is that it needs to be investigated.

"The ventilators do not do the job and as the oxygen is increasingly forced into the lungs - it destroys them."

In the Youtube videos I posted before the above videos, it seems evidence that the issue is what *are* the clear clinical signs that the doctors are responding to. The problem appears to be that many patients are *not* displaying the exact same symptoms of ARDS that doctors are familiar with. There are patients with extremely low oxygen levels - who would normally be uncomfortable or even on the verge of unconsciousness - who are nonetheless lucid and talking in full sentences. Some doctors believe that the CO2 and oxygen ratios are out of whack, indicating that the lungs are continuing to process the CO2, but for some reason aren't getting adequate oxygen. There are also possible issues with pulmonary hypertension and other matters.

In short, doctors are seeing symptoms at variance with their standard protocols for treating ARDS to the point where some doctors - like the one I cited before the above videos - believe this is *not* conventional ARDS but a new syndrome, for which the standard ventilation protocols are over-reactive.

"Why did the medical profession fall for the story of ventilation and pneumonia, when right at the beginning many many scientists and others were saying that lack of oxygen in the blood was the problem?."

Lack of oxygen can occur for a variety of reasons. As the doctors I've referenced have said, the problem is that the only thing they know from the last ten years is ARDS - for which there are standard protocols. It's only been over the past month or so that it has become clear to many that there are too many patients who aren't following the standard clinical presentations of ARDS. The problem with that is that hospitals are loath to rewrite their protocols on the fly, as it were - especially when they've overloaded with patients in an emergency situation.

As the East Virginia Medical School (EVMS) Critical Care COVID-19 Management Protocol (PDF) puts it:

“If what you are doing ain’t working, change what you are doing”

Dr AB (NYC).“We have zero success for patients who were intubated. Our thinking is changing to postpone intubation to as long as possible, to prevent mechanical injury from the ventilator. These patients tolerate arterial hypoxia surprisingly well. Natural course seems to be the best.”

It seems many doctors are coming around to the notion that this is a *new* disease - and that's going to be required before the treatment protocols are changed. With New York the epicenter, and they still have over 4,000 people on ventilators, I think this is going to change rapidly. I don't see how New York can take another 86% of those people dying.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 19 2020 11:38 utc | 172

Sabine 171

US couldn't even learn the bare basics. Quarantine and eradicate the disease. Only draconian chinks would do that though. Now the exceptional people will just have to suck it up.

The stuff in that article... its also in the handbook Chinese doctors put together over a month ago and put on the net for anyone to download.
Had what they done with such cases, what they were seeing some success with ect ect. A good starting point and work that could be built on.
All information was sent to WHO and various countries through medical channels. As the saying goes - You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 19 2020 11:47 utc | 173

"From the research I quoted earlier SARS-CoV cannot attack T cells whereas MERS-CoV and SARS-CoV-2 do." --Peter AU1 @176

That would make sense if it was a "feature" that had not been added yet. If this virus were a product in development then each version would have new "features" added, and perhaps some old "features" removed. It could even be a family of products based upon a common core of code and with different plug-ins for different use cases.

Who is suggesting that any of these viruses was a finished product? As with many projects, it could be a perpetual "work in progress", with shippable milestones that the developers periodically work towards.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 19 2020 11:48 utc | 174

How can COVID 19 be used by the masses as a means to restrain the power of the nation state?

The question in need of discussion is not who made it or can Trumpet rape China, and then get China to stand up and admit that the Eastern Gods impregnated China or not, That is a fact to be determined by the political leaders of two nation states, as the leaders use those they govern to fight out which leader is more powerful. .

The question to be considered, while the USA Leader v the China Leader he did it war rolls, is how can the bottom up, that is, the governed masses, in the 225 different nation states, increase their bottom up bargaining power v the nation state military backed political power?
How can COVID 19 be used by the masses to restrain the power of the nation state?

Posted by: snake | Apr 19 2020 11:54 utc | 175

@Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 19 2020 11:10 utc | 172

Some data to reinforce your arguments...

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Apr 19 2020 11:55 utc | 176

jeremy scahill @jeremyscahill Visitors meeting with Trump and Pence have been forced to take coronavirus tests beforehand. Yet Trump encourages citizens to engage in group protests— funded by the Devos family and other right wing extremists by the way— without protective masks. What does that tell you?

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Apr 19 2020 11:59 utc | 177

@ Hoyeru #8

The possibility of indemnifying China via reparations may have induced not only the USA but also other states to join the corona hype.

First and foremost the Club Méditerranée - all in debt up to their neck. They not only want to rip off China, but also the northern states of the EU via corona bonds.

After some initial hesitation, Germany is joining in the hype because this gives it the chance to finally get reparations instead of always having to pay.

Posted by: NKicher | Apr 19 2020 12:05 utc | 178

William Gruff

Theres something going on there. That wiki piece I linked to for the SARS symptoms has a propaganda section very similar to the accusations against China now. One person in Guangdong dies of unknown pneumonia and China are covering up an epidemic. Even the heroic whistle blower who rather than dying has to undergo re-education.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 19 2020 12:10 utc | 179

This shit is now doing the rounds of five-eyes and vassals.

Looks like as China has been declared guilty they will get an MH17 investigation and trial.

China wont have to bother trying to protect its trade as there wont be any to speak of with the US west. North to stop China and Russia focusing on taking the yanks down now.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 19 2020 12:35 utc | 180

Regarding those US covid casualties: How covid 19 death certificates are being manipulated,

Posted by: Chris | Apr 19 2020 12:37 utc | 181

Peter AU1 @184

Yeah, the empire and its servile media doth protest too much, methinks.

Sadly, Wikipedia must be included among the "servile media". If you try to correct one of those jingoism-filled articles it will be immediately reverted and you will get banned from making edits.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 19 2020 12:37 utc | 182

Peter AU1 @183: "China wont have to bother trying to protect its trade as there wont be any to speak of with the US west."

That seems to be the plan, but capitalist economics has a mind (or more accurately mindlessness) of its own, as well as an internal logic that is independent of propaganda. Desiring a particular change in economic relations and making it happen are two different things, and the desire doesn't come with an automatic path leading to the realization of the desire. That's something working people often understand quite well.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 19 2020 12:49 utc | 183

Isn't Guangdong an international port with lots of vessels from everywhere?

Posted by: Mina | Apr 19 2020 12:57 utc | 184

China is Australia's largest trading partner - more than that of the combined USA & Japan.
I suspect not much will come of it from Australia's perspective.

It's really hard to be a lickspittle sycophant to the US & suck up to China at the same time.
Aussies lick arses with forked tongue.

Posted by: ted01 | Apr 19 2020 12:58 utc | 185

Why does globalresearch promote this kind of people?

Posted by: Mina | Apr 19 2020 13:00 utc | 186

karlof1 @ 105 says:

Fortunately, there're enlightened people refusing to participate in the fraud any longer,...

yeah, for sure, but are you one of them? 'cause not many comments ago you said:

I don't care one bit for Biden, but Trump and his immoral crew aren't fit to govern anything and must be ousted. So I ask yet again: Who is the Lesser Evil--Trump or Biden?

yet again.

so, how exactly does this reflect the cumulation of 20 years of riding the 'vanguard' of revolutionary thought?

Posted by: john | Apr 19 2020 13:11 utc | 187

> cynthia mckinney has twitter...with several on topic twits. Including "tool in the toolbox of the globalists: Ebola and other viruses in order to create the next phase of control..."

Posted by: Walter | Apr 19 2020 13:13 utc | 188

High social unrest
A US Arab Spring in the making?

Why not, may be is time to reap what you sow

Posted by: DFC | Apr 19 2020 13:13 utc | 189

@Posted by: David F | Apr 19 2020 3:48 utc | 134

"Anytime I see a link to the dailymail being used as a legitimate reference for proof of anything, i do go 'hmm'."

Who offered "proof"? Did you mean evidence? Do you even know the difference?

So you have a bias and would walk away from evidence because of your attitude.
Did you do a search to find if the evidence was dealt with at another source?
Or was it more important to you to just fill this site with your gracious opinion?

Posted by: librul | Apr 19 2020 13:14 utc | 190

Thanks for your reply Richard.177
Increasingly the medical profession is realising the the Corona virus ia a new disease and that the treatment has been wrong.

[long copy of the linked article deleted - b.]
Then we have this evidence...
This article from Thailand is interesting,-rendering-it-incapable-of-transporting-oxygen--current-medical-protoco

Posted by: Emily | Apr 19 2020 13:15 utc | 191

john | Apr 19 2020 13:11 utc | 191

Is Schrödinger's cat question. (Lesser Evil--Trump or Biden)

Whichever cat does not get to be el presidente is the lesser have to open the box to know.


Revolutionary thought is not = to revolutionary action. Only the ruling class can create revolution. Any they only when they're so incompetent as to create it.

Posted by: Walter | Apr 19 2020 13:17 utc | 192


The possibility of indemnifying China via reparations may have induced not only the USA but also other states to join the corona hype.

I meant to say:
The possibility of being indemnified by China via reparations may have induced not only the USA but also other states to join the corona hype.

( English is not my mother tongue)

Posted by: NKicher | Apr 19 2020 13:20 utc | 193

Regarding factors contributing to those US covid numbers exceeding every other nations: Obesity,

Posted by: Chris | Apr 19 2020 13:20 utc | 194

wow, b has been busy this morning deleting posts.

@140 is now @126

David F posted @134 in response to @140 (presently, @126)
does that make you go 'hmm'?
A response that has a lower number than the post it is referring back to.
By now @134 may itself be something else.

Posted by: librul | Apr 19 2020 13:25 utc | 195

Nuance is important, and something important may have been missed.

the bat virus RaTG13 has at least 20 years of genetic divergence, or evolutionary change, from SARS-CoV-2, and possibly as much as 50 years,
ruling it out as the source of the pandemic.

But is that conclusion justified?

This article describes how

"serial passage in ferrets rendered variants of the highly pathogenic avian influenza virus (HPAIV) H5N1 transmissible in a mammalian species"
It resulted in "the specific mutations associated with this new function, which was essentially a 'species jump' to mammalian transmission".

Why ferrets? because they have an ACE2 receptor like humans.

Serial passage leads to rapid evolution. This article describes how.

"Generally, rapid adaptation to the new host environment in the form of increased fitness and virulence is observed (typically within ∼10 passages)"

So what does it mean to say that a virus is "50 years distant"? I'm guessing that it means that we see evolution naturally occur at a certain rate of mutations per year, and if we count the mutations, we can calculate the number of years it must have taken for them to occur normally.

But that number means a whole lot less when a lab conducts gain of function research on a virus using serial passage through ferrets. In that case, you get significant adaptive mutations within about 10 passages. How long would it take for those adaptations to occur in nature? As much as 50 years, or more.

How long would they take in a lab? 10 months? 20 months?

Posted by: Deltaeus | Apr 19 2020 13:32 utc | 196

Mina 188

A province,113.7087952,896509m/data=!3m1!1e3

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 19 2020 13:37 utc | 197

Did you know that the 1918 Influenza hit the young and healthy demographic hardest?

It is believed that a less virulent form of that influenza virus had passed through
the population some months before. Those that were strong and healthy enough to shake
off the virus developed less immunity than the older demographic. Thus when the more
virulent form came through the situation was flipped and the older demographic had
more immunity than the young and healthy.

There is a striking situation in the news today. A Boston homeless shelter (Pine Street Inn) had tested
397 people at the shelter and 146 tested positive for Covid-19. 100% of those found to be positive
had no symptoms - asymptomatic.

It begs two or more questions:
1) was the testing flawed?
2) what caused apparent immunity in this population?
...a) had a virus passed through the homeless shelter some months before that gave them immunity?
.....i) can this less virulent virus be isolated such that it can lead to a vaccine for the rest of us?
...b) other?

Posted by: librul | Apr 19 2020 13:41 utc | 198

Et Tu | Apr 18 2020 21:12 utc | 50

And it came out of China.
In this bar, you will find that Alternative Facts(TM.Trump)don't fly. That it came out of China is one of a number of possibilities, not a fact.
And until mid January, both China and the WHO were saying "no human to human transmission".
Either you are trying to twist things or you cannot read. What both China and the WHO said was "there is no evidence of human to human transmission".
we all know that is a lie and a botched cover up.
The Chinese were dealing with a new disease and they made some mistakes. Quel surprise!
Chinese doctors arrested and silenced,
Li Wenliang, who was not a whisleblower, (he sent a social medium message to some colleagues) was not arrested, he was asked to go to the police station where he was bawled out by a stupid policeman for "spreading rumours", asked to sign a paper to say that he would not do it again and sent home after about an hour. Shortly thereafter, he was appointed the head of a team of medical workers dealing with the outbreak, but unfortunately, he had been infected (probably)by the patients he had been discussing with his colleagues and died of the virus.
sudden jumps in reported numbers
What is surprising in that? Collecting statistics in the midst of an emergency is not easy and pockets tend to get overlooked.
Are you also being paid by China?
Insults indicate that you have run out of rational arguments, if you ever had any. In any case, it is the wrong question, the correct question is: "Is what you say correct?"
Never a bad word about China here, come on, they are just as bad if not worse, and in this case, they screwed up massively,
No need to add to the massive dump on China that is going on and in any case they did most things right. They "screwed up" so massively that they have figures for infections, deaths and recoveries that Trump is touting as "incredible" and are orders of magnitude smaller than those of the UK and the US that had months to prepare and bottled it.
and we don't even know if it was an accident or something that escaped their lab which is coincidentally only a few hundred meters from the live market... just a coincidence?
Your implication being that "it certainly came from their lab and it was no accident", presumably. Having nothing to back this up, you resort to innuendo. Bravo!

Posted by: foolisholdman | Apr 19 2020 13:45 utc | 199

One can speculate that SARS-COV2 either:
- evolved naturally and passed to humans through an intermediate animal host.
- evolved naturally, then was studied, then accidently escaped from a high-security biolab.
- was deliberately engineered then accidentally escaped from a high-security biolab.
- was deliberately engineered then deliberately released from a high-security biolab.

And on top of these there's still the "when" and "where" that's unknown and the fact that viruses continue to rapidly evolve no matter what their origin.

So for anyone to blame China or any other country for the outbreak is plain silly at best.

Given that entire courses are available on how to approach a question and/or solve a problem one could reasonably conclude that all the China blaming is propaganda.

Posted by: krypton | Apr 19 2020 13:46 utc | 200

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