Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 18, 2020

The New Anti-China Campaign Is Built On Lies

To avoid self-examination of the failures that let the U.S. exceed the covid-19 casualty numbers of every other nation the powers that be decided to blame someone else.

Trump's first attempt was to blame the World Health Organization for not providing all information. But 16 U.S. administration officials were embedded with the WHO in Geneva. They relayed real time updates of all information the WHO received.

As the Democrats and the media did not join Trump in blaming the WHO another scapegoat was needed. Everyone then agreed that it China would be the most convenient target.

The intensity of the current anti-China campaign reminds one of the run up to the war on Iraq. The people who now claim that 'China lied, people died' are the very same who ran the Iraq WMD campaign. But all the reports claiming Iraqi weapons of mass destruction were just fantasy. The reports of Chinese culpability are similar nonsense.

As this is an election year both parties try to associate the other side with the new villain:

“Donald Trump sent critical medical supplies to China as Americans continue to suffer. He needs to follow his supposed motto of America First,” American Bridge President Bradley Beychok said in a statement. “We’re making sure that voters across Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin know full well not only how badly Trump botched this crisis, but also how badly he bent the knee to China in the midst of it as well.”
...
“We are more than happy to let the American public decide whom they trust, President Trump or Beijing Joe Biden, to get tough on China,” said Brian O. Walsh, president of America First, in response to the new ad campaign by American Bridge. American Bridge said the ad is the first of its new offensive campaign targeting Trump, his company, business associates and adult children over their ties to China and other foreign investments.

The group said it plans on rolling out microtargeted digital ads on that theme as part of “an all-out assault on Trump and his family over their corruption — in China and other countries — involving foreign bribes, political favors, shady real estate investments, and parties with dictators.”

This will be bad for other important political issues:

Rania Khalek @RaniaKhalek - 19:27 UTC · Apr 17, 2020

The anti China hawkishness is going to drown out progressive momentum for universal healthcare and cancelling student debt. Like Russiagate, this new yellow peril will lead to greater military spending and more war. Sad so many who should know better can’t see that.

Some lawmakers want to allow random people to sue China over the 'damage it caused'. Other seek to default on the $1.2 trillion of debt the U.S. owns China.

To blame China the hawks are accusing it of three issues:

  • Lack of public hygiene
  • Insufficient information
  • Creating or spreading the virus by accident

The "wet market" in Wuhan did not have hygiene problems. A "wet market" is comparable to a farmers market (vid). It is "wet" in that it provides fresh products like fruits, vegetables, meat and fish. A "dry market" provides the complementary products like rice, flour, tea and sugar. China has yet to be overrun by super market chains. Some 40% of the Chinese people source their daily food at the wet markets.

The wet market in Wuhan was not the source of the epidemic. It did not and does not sell bats. The epidemic started in December at a time when bats hibernate. The first known case was not related to the market at all.

The U.S. claims that China did not inform it sufficiently. The timeline as published by China and confirmed by media reports does not support that claim.

On January 3 the head of the U.S. Center of Disease Control was personally informed by his Chinese counterpart that there was an outbreak of pneumonia of unknown cause in Wuhan. On January 8 the "unknown cause" was identified as a novel coronavirus. A full genome sequence of the virus was published on January 12 and preliminary testing kits were developed and made available in Wuhan. By January 13 another test and test protocol had been developed in Germany and on January 17 the WHO adopted its refined version.

In the U.S. the CDC insisted on developing its own test and failed by contaminating its test components. It then failed for more than a month to correct the issue.

The German Federal Health Ministry was recently asked if it perceived a lack of information from China or saw reason to criticize China over its changing case numbers. It responded (in German, my translation):

"The federal government is not aware that China held back any data." ... "Considering the interim development the adoption of different definitions of cases during the epidemic in China is comprehensible."

Another claim is that China somehow created the virus or let it escape from a laboratory in Wuhan where it was researching bat viruses.

But scientists see strong evidence that the novel coronavirus is a natural development and they do not believe that it leaked from a laboratory in Wuhan:

Edward Holmes, a biologist at the University of Sydney and a fellow of the respected Royal Society in London, said the Wuhan laboratory blamed by some for the pandemic does have specimens of the bat virus RaTG13, the closest relative of Covid-19 source SARS-CoV-2, but the two are not genetically linked.

RaTG13 strains, he says, are from the southern Chinese province of Yunnan, not the central city of Wuhan, the pandemic’s initial epicenter.
...
Genome tracing has revealed that the bat virus RaTG13 has at least 20 years of genetic divergence, or evolutionary change, from SARS-CoV-2, and possibly as much as 50 years, ruling it out as the source of the pandemic.

The claims against China made by both U.S. parties do not have a factual basis.

It is no wonder than that Chinese people are asking "What Do You Really Want From Us?"

Posted by b on April 18, 2020 at 17:43 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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Joe Biden is sunk if the "Blame China" meme endures.

Hello Hunter B. and $1.5 billion deals with Chinese banks!!

Hunter Biden appears to still be on the board of a Chinese private equity firm he co-founded, despite his lawyer pledging late last year that the potential first son would resign, a report alleges.

Chinese business records, the Daily Caller reports, still list Robert Hunter Biden — the younger Biden’s full name — as a director and board member of BHR Partners.

George Mesires, a lawyer for Biden, said back in October that Biden would be relinquishing his director title “on or by October 31,” but the outlet reported that business records it obtained were submitted as recently as March 24.

https://nypost.com/2020/04/15/hunter-biden-still-listed-as-board-member-of-chinese-company-report/

In contrast Trump can point to trade wars he's initiated with China to prove how tough he's been with China.

Posted by: Julian | Apr 18 2020 17:56 utc | 1

Except, it almost certainly WAS lab-modified.
You are, OrangeMan and US spooks entirely aside, I promise you, wrong here.
It escaped, from the Wuhan lab, by accident, and was likely related to vaccine research, not as a 'weapon.'

COVID-19 Is A Man-Made Virus: HIV-Discoverer Says "Could Only Have Been Created In A Lab"
https://www.zerohedge.com/health/covid-19-man-made-virus-hiv-discoverer-says-could-only-have-been-created-lab

Posted by: Florin | Apr 18 2020 17:58 utc | 2

thanks b.. this topic is not going away any time soon.. it is a repeat of russiagate, but coming into an election... the usa knows no bounds when it comes to spreading the blame outside itself... funny how this works... no accountability, but endless blame... i sort of thought this was mostly a republican specialty - blaming china, and that russiagate was a dem specialty, but now it looks like they are all wanting to get in on it.. insane.... this is one more sign of a falling and failing empire...

Posted by: james | Apr 18 2020 18:04 utc | 3

@Florin
"Except, it almost certainly WAS lab-modified."
And you "know" this, how?
Saying it's so doesn't make it so.

Posted by: erik | Apr 18 2020 18:06 utc | 4

the accusations it came from a wuhan lab without proof are very much a reenactment of the lead up to war in iraq.. i see zerohedge is keen to push this.. interesting... i wonder how they get their funding??

Posted by: james | Apr 18 2020 18:06 utc | 5

I think you are right this time b. The anti-China nonsense is intended to distract people from the preCovid 19 and post-Covid 19 economic disaster in Western capitalism, and to help the oligarchy loot the public once again.

The virus and China are perfect distractions for the propaganda machine, and double as justifications for the continuing US "pivot to Asia".

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Apr 18 2020 18:15 utc | 6

Not quite right. The Reality is MUCH more sordid. The Corona bio weapon was deliberately released in China, so the US gov can then blame CHina. The plan has several point:
1. ruin CHina's economy
2. ruin/stop/slow China's BRI project
3. create world wide hatred against China and make various countres who work witch China stop.
4. demand CHina pay reparation

Sorry, but you simply do NOT think evil enough.

Posted by: Hoyeru | Apr 18 2020 18:33 utc | 7

Chris 1

Thanks for that piece of evidence regarding the campaign of lies.

It's clear the system's goal is to undercount the infection rate (with the vast majority experiencing mild or no symptoms; these are undercounted by being discouraged from going to the hospital, non-tested through the artificial scarcity of test kits etc.) while overcounting the death rate, in order to attain numbers which possibly could justify the lockdown with all its evils.

Posted by: Russ | Apr 18 2020 18:36 utc | 8

It is no wonder than that Chinese people are asking "What Do You Really Want From Us?"

They want your complete destruction and eternal enslavement.

Posted by: vk | Apr 18 2020 18:40 utc | 9

IMO the 'blame China' strategy was hatched very early.

The Trump Administration slow-walked a virus response to gin up a CRISIS! with the intention of blaming China.

That CRISIS! has allowed unpopular bailouts of Wall Street and favored corporations.

The Trump Administration has also assisted in virus-related profiteering.

The 'national emergency' gives Trump vast powers, but he defers to corporate partners that are slow to deliver and that are more interested in profits than saving lives.

<> <> <> <> <>

See more at my blog.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 18 2020 18:41 utc | 10

again with the weird defensive denial of the wet market as a highly probable origin.

1. only MAGAtards and various others who get their "news" from facebook ever thought it was bats. straw man. even the more rational theories only mention bats in relation to intermediate animals. it's also misleading to place a "wet market" selling pangolins and snakes as food in the same category as one selling non-idiot food. bloomberg published a similar "derpa derp if you object to eating dogs yer racist lol" screed recently but i expect better from this site.

2. there were many possible COVID cases before december even putting aside the myriad goofy conspiracy theories. and i keep seeing "'only' 2/3 of the early cases had links to the market" presented as a cogent argument which is odd and annoying. the market is very close to a hotel that could have also been a "ground zero" but until i see reliable evidence it's just a guess.

3. it's also odd to say "it didn't originate from an animal" and then a few paragraphs later link to a scientist saying it has a "natural origin". i guess it just spontaneously appeared in a chinese guy who sneezed all over hubei province?

i'm not in china. no one on here is that i know of. therefore we don't have any more of a clue than your average ron paul where it started. it could have originated with US troops or with an animal that is only craved by those with extra chromosomes. both are symptoms of cultural rot and stupidity so it's gonna be difficult to pin one down.

Posted by: the pair | Apr 18 2020 18:50 utc | 11

And the crazies go wild again.
Zerohedge brainwashed sinophobes, so called Amercian "Patriots" who should know better but dont want to look weak, psychotic nutjobs who speak of their "theorys" even though they are too ignorant or stupid to even read any scientific publication and study.
And deep state + big business from both "parties". All united in their nutjob pseudo "theories" and in shifting the blame on the "chinamen".
OMG.

And all here in the bar. It would be a comedy if it would not be our new reality.
And by virtue of transatlantic puppets even now in European MSM.

Again, thanks Bernhard for your principled stance, in spite of the ghosts of Alex Jones that haunt this bar.

Gives "Bat Shit Crazy" a whole new dimension.

Posted by: DontBelieveEitherPr. | Apr 18 2020 18:52 utc | 12

james 6

zerohedge and the good colonel... joined by a harvard educated paedophile.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 18 2020 18:54 utc | 13

The Trump Administration has been working to delink China from the US and it's vassal states' economies for the past 4 years and if we're being honest this campaign started under the Obama administration and their "pivot to Asia". So this whole virus blame game is just the latest convenient weapon the US has grabbed a hold of to try to justify the coming separation.

The US is trying shove China back into the pre-1972 box and it's simply not going to work so what we'll see s the breakup of NATO / EU as it currently exists, the US will try to force all member to adopt anti-Chinese economic and strategic policies in order to isolate China, some will agree (Belgium, England, Poland), others won't (France, maybe Germany). This will in tern force a breakup and realignment of the existing geo-political order within the West. On the bright side this might finally force the US to stop being such a warmongering force of international chaos in Asia and the Middle East. However, I suspect we'll see a return of the 1980s and fortress "American", with the US savagely beating all of South & Central America into obedience via coups and death squads.

under Obama the US overthrew almost all of the pink tide governments in South America and Trump is desperately trying to finish the job with overthrowing Venezuela & Cuba. I wouldn't be surprized if in the 2nd Trump term, the US's finally bites the bullet and bribes Columbia into invading Venezuela.

Posted by: Kadath | Apr 18 2020 18:54 utc | 14

There is a broader economic context that has been buried down the Orwellian memory hole by most of the American media and self-styled Free Press in general.

Namely, the American and broader capitalist Ponzi Scheme/bubble economies have been hurtling towards imminent collapse BEFORE the COVID-19 "pandemic" oh-so-conveniently came along.

From the viewpoint of the American Oligarchy (and its allied Oligarchies in other nations), COVID-19 is a very fortuitous "Black Swan Event" to shift blame for this collapse.

Wall Street’s Crisis Began Four Months Before the First Reported Death from Coronavirus in China; Here’s the Proof
https://wallstreetonparade.com/2020/03/wall-streets-crisis-began-four-months-before-the-first-reported-death-from-coronavirus-in-china-heres-the-proof/

All That’s Missing Is a Black Swan
https://internationalman.com/articles/all-thats-missing-is-a-black-swan/

Corona Pandemic: The Perfect Scapegoat for the Financial and ‘Everything Bubble’ Market Crash: The Great Depression 2.0
https://www.globalresearch.ca/corona-pandemic-scapegoat-financial-bubble-market-crash-great-depression/5708772?print=1

Moreover, the America/Western-led demands for "COVID-19 compensation" are, in part, an attempt to manipulate COVID-19 as a pretext to extort money from China to prop up this America-led ponzi scheme system (aka Neoliberalism or the Washington Consensus).

The Too “Savvy” Coronavirus
https://www.stalkerzone.org/the-too-savvy-coronavirus/

The US Is Preparing to Default on Debts Owed to China
https://www.stalkerzone.org/the-us-is-preparing-to-default-on-debts-owed-to-china/

America's "Operation Shakedown China" is beginning!

Posted by: ak74 | Apr 18 2020 19:01 utc | 15

Re: #14 DontBelieveEitherPr,

Yes, I'm surprised how Zerohedge has drunk the Anti-China koolaid so completely, 2 years ago they would have been way more cynical about the US government's claims about China. I suspect they had some staff turn over in the past year and some Steve Bannon types joined up. Actually, I remember that Zerohedge was completely against the attempted coup in Venezuela when it first happened, but now they seem to be warming up to the idea of another attempt.

Posted by: Kadath | Apr 18 2020 19:08 utc | 16

The usual traitors in Canadian politics and media are spewing the sinophobe talking points. The same gang that parroted the WMD lies.

Posted by: Keith McClary | Apr 18 2020 19:15 utc | 17

All this babble about what we are going to do to China is nonsense, the question is what China is going to decide to do to us. They have us by the nuts, not the other way around, and there is no quick fix for our own self-disembowelment these last 40 years or so. The sooner that gets factored in, the better our outcomes are likely to be.

Posted by: Bemildred | Apr 18 2020 19:17 utc | 18

@16 Kadath

Pretty much on point and I agree with the general direction. Zerohedge has been turned into a right wing version of MSNBC full of drooling conspiracy theorists.

The big issue is where Europe decides its future lies. Eurasia or NATO. An obvious choice but some of the more clueless countries (looking at you Poland) may try to continue living in a fantasy world and will pay a heavy price. The Chinese should be looking to disengage from the USA in a manner similar to Russia. Isolate the rabid dogs in North America and concentrate on building Eurasia. Hard days ahead for central and south america.

I'm willing to consider all sources both natural and manufactured, but to date, the Cambridge study presents the most logical story. But the US media continues to talk about where the virus was first identified versus where it originated, conflating the former with the latter. It's understandable that Americans focus on blaming someone since it detracts from the pathetic state of the country and its increasingly 3rd world conditions.

Posted by: sad canuck | Apr 18 2020 19:29 utc | 19

Ref Wuhan lab
Just sayin' how many international teams are working in this place?
http://english.whiov.cas.cn/News/Int_Cooperation_News/
A search "wuhan international cooperation" on your search tool reveals dozens of intl events in Wuhan, apart from the institute of virology linked above.

Posted by: Mina | Apr 18 2020 19:30 utc | 20

This goes back to the very first trump admin meetings that were classified and their insistence on calling it the China virus or the Wuhan virus.

Reuters

The White House has ordered federal health officials to treat top-level coronavirus meetings as classified, an unusual step that has restricted information and hampered the U.S. government’s response to the contagion, according to four Trump administration officials...

...Staffers without security clearances, including government experts, were excluded from the interagency meetings, which included video conference calls, the sources said.

“We had some very critical people who did not have security clearances who could not go,” one official said. “These should not be classified meetings. It was unnecessary.”

The sources said the National Security Council (NSC), which advises the president on security issues, ordered the classification.”This came directly from the White House,” one official said...

...The meetings at HHS were held in a secure area called a “Sensitive Compartmentalized Information Facility,” or SCIF, according to the administration officials.

SCIFs are usually reserved for intelligence and military operations. Ordinary cell phones and computers can’t be brought into the chambers. HHS has SCIFs because theoretically it would play a major role in biowarfare or chemical attacks.

It would be interesting to know when these classified meetings began.
This from March 21st.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/white-house-pushes-us-officials-to-criticize-china-for-coronavirus-cover-up

As the number of coronavirus cases continues to grow at a rapid pace in the U.S., the White House is launching a communications plan across multiple federal agencies that focuses on accusing Beijing of orchestrating a “cover-up” and creating a global pandemic, according to two U.S. officials and a government cable obtained by The Daily Beast.

The cable, sent to State Department officials Friday, lays out in detail the circumstances on the ground in China, including data on coronavirus cases and deaths, the local business environment and transportation restrictions. But it also issues guidelines for how U.S. officials should answer questions on, or speak about, the coronavirus and the White House’s response in relation to China.

The talking points appear to have originated in the National Security Council. One section of the cable reads “NSC Top Lines: [People’s Republic of China] Propaganda and Disinformation on the Wuhan Virus Pandemic.”

“Chinese Communist Party officials in Wuhan and Beijing had a special responsibility to inform the Chinese people and the world of the threat, since they were the first to learn of it,” the cable reads. “Instead, the... government hid news of the virus from its own people for weeks, while suppressing information and punishing doctors and journalists who raised the alarm. The Party cared more about its reputation than its own people’s suffering.”...

...“These talking points are all anyone is really talking about right now,” one official said. “Everything is about China. We’re being told to try and get this messaging out in any way possible, including press conferences and television appearances.”

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 18 2020 19:32 utc | 21

Bemildred | Apr 18 2020 19:17 utc | 20

Agreed, 40 years or more in the making.

This is all kabuki theater vis a vis china. There is NOTHING we can do to them! We could nuke them I guess, but short of that we don't have any other options. We cannot defeat them militarily. We are dependent on their imports, as we don't manufacture hardly anything. Theirs is a unified country. And they have the goodwill of most of the world.

Who is going to enforce a settlement should we 'sue' them and win? What court is even going to listen to such a suit, not one that china cares about, nor russia.

All of our so called allies are going to flip to the russia/china side in the not too distant future. We might hold on to mexico and canada, simply because they cant go anywhere to get away from us, and the uk will probably stay with us as we are partners in crime.

Blaming china and talking tough, plays to the rubes at home and effectively diverts blame for our own governments fuck up.

Posted by: David F | Apr 18 2020 19:35 utc | 22

Ask yourself how are the financial "termites" going to get out of the lockdown and keep all the fortunes and assets they are in the process of stealing?. One way - blame an outside force for everything. Try and get the attention focused somewhere else. China now takes the place of a unifying force, or rather a force to become unified against. (There are no aliens around at the moment.) We have had Russia, Clinton/Trump and a mass of otherwise small time dictators, who have been a "threat" that needed or "wanted" instant warfare. PLEEZE not that idiocy again.

Look, this is not a finance post BUT one item in the CARES act allows 43,000 people making over $250'000 per year each to get $195 billion ($1,600,000 each). More than all the other "programs" to "help" the plebs and small biz put together. (Did you fill in enough papers to get your one time $1200?) So China is to "blame" ?

It goes not matter to the financial "termites" at the top where Coronavirus came from, or if it kills a just few hundreds or millions, all they want is everything that everyone else owns.
---------
By the way, "China TChump" versus "Beijing Biden" sounds a good way to describe the upcoming elections.

Posted by: Stonebird | Apr 18 2020 19:42 utc | 23

Propaganda is a collective enterprise. You may start with your influencers but the aim is to get the ideas to become commonsense, that you'd be embarrassed to disagree with them. Then the momentum drives things on its own. On this subject it is particularly easy because the US craves external enemies. At this stage the slightest hint of blaming China is enthusiastically picked up by everyone in the press and in the population. I don't see how any 'campaigning' is still required. Where I live (Belgium) it is now also commonsense that you can't trust anything China says.

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Apr 18 2020 19:55 utc | 24

Hat tip to ak74 who, like me, thinks that all this is about the civilization war we are in over who runs finance.

The answer to the question about what does empire/US want that is the basis for the nice Chinese rant that b linked to at the end of his posting is obvious to some of us. Empire controls humanity by its undiscussed control over global finance and China is challenging that world hegemony with its socialist banking system.

The biggest lie of all is the one that maintains that the cult of Hand, The Invisible aka God of Mammon, is best to govern/motivate our species via their global social contract control over the structure and outcomes of all economic interchange.

If/when more of those in the West start talking about that unwritten coda they are forced to live their lives by then the opportunity will open for that coda to be modified to improve the structure and outcomes of human economic interchange.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Apr 18 2020 19:56 utc | 25

It's ye oldy classic one-two from the two-party dictatorship. The left bangs on about Russia, the right bangs on about China. The dictatorship wants to fight both - though still can't, as it probably understands those few mornings it sobers up before its next hit of whatever soma it imbibes.

It's funny - the right leaning sites are now awash with the equivalent of leftie Russiagaters, people they used to mock rightly and endlessly for jumping to biases or conclusions.. As much as I love the idea of semi-direct democracy, sometimes a philosopher king or a wheel turning monarch seem like the only viable choice to lead the sheeple.

Posted by: Ilya G Poimandres | Apr 18 2020 19:57 utc | 26


Here is a link:
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/18/china-falsely-telling-arab-world-us-source-coronav/

"A media research group on Friday released the transcript of a China-produced Arabic-language news report to show how Beijing’s propaganda machine is blaming the coronavirus on America."

A right-leaning news site offers us an article,
with an Israeli propaganda organization as the source,
about an alleged transcript
of an Arabic language news report
that was allegedly produced by Beijing's propaganda machine
which is blaming the coronavirus on the US.

Whose agenda could be found at the root of the above?
Israel or the US or China or Russia or Iran?

Posted by: librul | Apr 18 2020 20:01 utc | 27

Mina 23

The Wuhan institute of virology is from what I make of it part of a global network of research venters that are genuinely looking at preventing infectious disease. Research is published made public ect. US has started pulling out of this since Trump came to power.

Just run onto this.

24 Nov 2019
The Army's premier biological laboratory on Fort Detrick reported two breaches of containment earlier this year, leading to the Centers for Disease and Control halting its high-level research.

The U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases announced Friday that it would restart its operations on a limited scale.


www.military.com


Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 18 2020 20:03 utc | 28

tuzeyfoot

"... but the aim is to get the ideas to become commonsense, that you'd be embarrassed to disagree with them."

You nailed it!

Posted by: David F | Apr 18 2020 20:07 utc | 29

So how far down the CCP rabbit hole have you gone b? Do you believe the CCP narrative that it is introduced into China by the US Army in the October games?

Posted by: Don Wills | Apr 18 2020 20:14 utc | 30

What about the Israeli report that the U.S. intel community informed Israel about a health crisis in Wuhan in the second week of November 2019?

Posted by: lysias | Apr 18 2020 20:16 utc | 31

@ 30 librul... good summation!

@ 31 peter.. that is old news and am open question is what happened there...@ 7 mentions it as well.. we have been reading about what happened at fort detrick for a good for months as my memory serves... not sure what to make of it...

Posted by: james | Apr 18 2020 20:20 utc | 32

for - few...

Posted by: james | Apr 18 2020 20:21 utc | 33

'The "wet market" in Wuhan did not have hygiene problems.'

Can we get a source for this claim, B?

Posted by: Pyrrho | Apr 18 2020 20:24 utc | 34

Posted by: David F | Apr 18 2020 19:35 utc | 25

Yes, thank you David, all that you mention and the human capital that we once had here and is now gone too. That cannot be bought or made, it must be grown, and grown right. Some things cannot be bought like a pack of cigarettes, off the shelf.

Posted by: Bemildred | Apr 18 2020 20:24 utc | 35

Ultimately, the question every American have to ask itself is this: am I ready to put up my military uniform - or, if I'm old, to send my son in a military uniform - to the Chinese shores across the Taiwan Strait and invade China?

Because that's the end game of this propaganda warfare, as the USA can do shit about its circa USD 1.2 trn Treasury Bonds and its decoupling strategy won't work. China is not some random Third World country which you can just embargo and do regime change with only USD 6 million, ten CIA agents and assets, two NGOs and 50 marines: if you want to take it down, you're speaking of hot war, major invasion, nuclear anihilation and millions dead.

Those professional propagandists don't have to make such choice: they'll be watching the war from a very safe and comfortable place, while receiving hefty six-figure salaries. But the redneck in Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio, West Virginia or et al will have to make such choice.

Posted by: vk | Apr 18 2020 20:25 utc | 36

Bemildred @20 is correct. It is the mighty empire that is twisting and writhing here like a fish on a hook, not China. Even though China has been the target of a string of attacks over the last couple years, it is the empire that is suffering the most from those attacks.

Perhaps the empire will be stupid enough (of course it is!) to default on its debt to China, but once again the blowback will damage the empire far more than that financial attack does China.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 18 2020 20:25 utc | 37

@ Don Wills 33

Check out JP Morgan's 100% stake in the pension mutual fund - in the country you label CCP.

Very curious. If I include the rest of my comment with certain links described below, I am unable to post. Does not show in Preview,

Linked to unz: "The hunt for patient zero, a series of unfortunate events."
Link to Times of Israel: "they were told in November 2019, and nothing was done"

Posted by: Likklemore | Apr 18 2020 20:26 utc | 38

Keith McClary @19. The UK too.

The strategy has been obvious for some time now. It is just about all that they had left. The response to the virus has not only been incompetent and contradictory but fudged and fumbled in plain view. First there was nothing to worry about (just another 'flu). Then there was, thanks to world wide public pressure, a half hearted essay towards containment and treatment. And now, having milked that for as much in the way of rip-offs that they could think of, the ruling class is preaching its original doctrine of getting the idle hoi poloi back to work.
The entire nonsense is just one more suicidal move aimed at winning the Presidential election. And it plays right into the hands of all the enemies of this increasingly eccentric Empire.
From China's point of view this simply confirms the story, long promoted by Beijing and sadly true, that the United States is demented and the source of its dementia is racism so deeply set that the state cannot function without it. Racism in politics is a good servant- a very clever way of dividing people- but a very bad master. And in the United States it has taken over: the political discourse, whether about Russia, Iran, Cuba, Immigration or the virus is riddled with racism. Take out recriminations against foreigners and there is nothing left.
Nothing, as b points out, about healthcare, employment, living standards, private and public indebtedness, adventures in the Middle East- just junior schoolyard mudslinging about China. Or Russia. etc
The only logical conclusion to these campaigns is war. And the United States loves wars, just so long as its opponents can't fight back, and the Homeland is unsullied by bombs and rockets.
In this case Trump, who is none too bright and who is surrounded by fanatics that even Stanley Kubrick couldn't cast, has chosen, has picked Eurasia as his enemy. Public opinion would be well advised to think about the implications of the clash that is being called for by the inmates, and the Class of 86, currently running the asylum.

Posted by: bevin | Apr 18 2020 20:26 utc | 39

Please USA
Why cant you fade silently into the sunset? Its no shame , you had your chance and played all the wrong cards, now you are just angry and mad and lashes out, go away an die somewhere outhere and leave us humans alone.

Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Apr 18 2020 20:27 utc | 40

An article now by H.R. McMaster about China in The Atlantic displays many of the lies and fears, but also reveals many of the underlying truths.

Like Kissinger in the late '60's and early '70's, McMaster fears that the Chinese are NOT dysfunctional and not going to collapse. He fears they will actually find smaller states willing to join in, that will work, and those states will become part of a Chinese system. He fears that China is not wrong. He believes the US is better, but not that it has the only functional truth.

The fear is that China will turn those parts of the world against the US. Against US values, against US interests, and against the US generally. It is fear of parts of the world being turned against us, not just removed from our economic system but also being made hostile to it and us.

This resembles fears from FDR's era of the colonial systems that excluded the US, and then that German designs would reach the Caribbean and South America to become a direct threat, just a matter of time.

It is power politics, but not just that the US wants to be hegemon, but that the US will lose a lot, and be hemmed in.

Posted by: Mark Thomason | Apr 18 2020 20:41 utc | 41

james 35

All I had read was that fort Detrick had been shut down due to safety issues. I hadn't read anywhere it had reopened, but that is where they are now conducting coronavirus research.

https://www.wired.com/story/the-us-armys-virus-research-lab-gears-up-to-fight-covid-19/

The pair are growing the SARS CoV-2 virus in round plastic dishes. In February, the CDC sent the Army about 10 drops of blood from one of the first Covid-19 patients, a Washington state man in his fifties who was the epidemic’s first US death. Since then, the Army researchers isolated the virus and have been making more of it to ship to other labs designing a vaccine or treatment against coronavirus.
If any science lab should be poised to tackle the current outbreak, it’s the US Army Institute of Infectious Diseases, or USAMRIID. This squat tan-colored facility sits in the middle of the sprawling grounds of Fort Detrick, Maryland,...

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 18 2020 20:48 utc | 42

Likklemore @42 - I read The Unz Review every day - it's an informative site. I re-read the link you referred to, and yes, the hunt for patient zero is far more complex than any Sherlock Holmes mystery. I seriously doubt we'll ever know who Patient Zero was. I couldn't find the article you referred to at the Times of Israel.

My question was serious, not only directed to b, but to all readers. Do you believe that the virus was introduced into China, either accidentally or on purpose, by an infected US Army person in late 2019? That's the story the Chinese Communist Party (not the country of China or its people) has been pushing. Here's an informative link -

https://www.veteranstoday.com/2020/04/18/china-us-brought-covid19-to-china-during-army-games-hid-disease-in-us-as-influenza/

Posted by: Don Wills | Apr 18 2020 20:52 utc | 43

Mark Thomason | Apr 18 2020 20:41 utc | 45

"The fear is that China will turn those parts of the world against the US. Against US values, against US interests, and against the US generally."

We turned the world against us with our constant war mongering and manipulating, all china & russia had to do was stand back and watch, and offer others something better.

What us values? To murder, rape and plunder at will?

The so called us interests represent the PTB's interests in the form of rape and plunder, not the common persons interests. Why can't we let people live how they want to live and trade freely with willing partners?

We are a completely immoral people, the world has seen what we have to offer, and they are saying no thanks.

Posted by: David F | Apr 18 2020 20:57 utc | 44

Months ago I posted a warning about John Brennan and the CIA.

John Durham (remember him?) is coming for Brennan's head and I wondered in a post
how far John Brennan and the CIA would be willing to go to derail John Durham -
what form would the next 9/11 take, if they were indeed willing to go that far.

When the first 9/11 initially happened I had thought the neocons and warmongers had just lucked out
and they were handed by luck a pretext for invasions - in other words, no inside job,
I had believed. It was quite a while (years even?) before I came around.

I don't believe the US was involved in initiating the Covid-19 pandemic.
John Brennan just lucked out.

Posted by: librul | Apr 18 2020 20:57 utc | 45

myself@49

"We are a completely immoral people, the world has seen what we have to offer, and they are saying no thanks."

Should have said, Our government and our leaders are a completely immoral people, the world has seen what they have to offer, and they are saying no thanks.

Posted by: David F | Apr 18 2020 21:00 utc | 46

@ 46 peter au.. thanks peter.. i hadn't heard they had reopened and all what is articulated there either.. thanks.. that is new!

@ 47 don wills... i don't know how anyone can answer your question.. good question though..

@ 48 anon2.. bruce had posted this info as well yesterday on the "Debunking Some Ideas About The Virus"..

@ 50 librul.. are you saying it is going to take you a few years to come around with this story too? interesting comments.. thanks..

Posted by: james | Apr 18 2020 21:02 utc | 47

Anon2
piss of with your zerohedge propaganda. Look up the twitter account of the mathematician that supposedly mapped out the HIV in coronavirus.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 18 2020 21:03 utc | 48

Sorry B,

but unlike WMD, this virus is very real and it is killing people and the whole world economy. And it came out of China. And until mid January, both China and the WHO were saying "no human to human transmission". 2 months after the first cases, and no human to human transmission, we all know that is a lie and a botched cover up. That can also be true just as Trump is a liar and total idiot, as we all know.

We have all seen the cringeworthy interview of the Taiwanese journalist being hung up by the WHO spokesman, purely for mentioning Taiwan. China and the WHO are undoubtedly culpable for this crisis, irrespective of how well or how bad individual leaders have responded. No to travel restrictions, no to masks? tell me that is sound advice not dictated by politics, wtf.

Even the best cases like Germany and South Korea, their economies are paralysed. How can you seriously omit this from your narrative and expect to be taken seriously? Chinese doctors arrested and silenced, sudden jumps in reported numbers... wtf else is going on that we have yet to discover?

Are you also being paid by China? Never a bad word about China here, come on, they are just as bad if not worse, and in this case, they screwed up massively, and we don't even know if it was an accident or something that escaped their lab which is coincidentally only a few hundred meters from the live market... just a coincidence? let's not even consider it right?

Posted by: Et Tu | Apr 18 2020 21:12 utc | 49

@ 52 james...how will my view change over time? Too early to tell :-) But it would really surprise me
if it didn't change over time.

One post-script, if I were John Durham I would stock up on hydroxychloroquine and Z-pac and
make sure no one has switched out the Tylenol in my Tylenol bottle with ibuprofen.

Posted by: librul | Apr 18 2020 21:13 utc | 50

Perhaps as the election year continues to drag on with Trump desperately flailing around for anything to rally his supporters (hit hard by COVID-19 now that the contagion has reached all 50 states) and the increasingly dementia-addled Joe Biden having nothing to say, it's time for the imagination-deficient Democrats or the FBI to go over Christopher Steele's dog-eared dossier again with the most powerful microscopes they have to find evidence that Beijing as well as Moscow was also assisting Trump's 2016 Presidential campaign.

Would sheeple around the world fall for a whopper like that? Australian news media eedjits certainly would.

Posted by: Jen | Apr 18 2020 21:16 utc | 52

Posted by: Don Wills | Apr 18 2020 20:52 utc | 47

The answer to your question is "I don't know", and neither do you.

Mr. Duff/VT is an interesting site and I read it too, but Mr. Duff himself admits that he lies all the time. What I have seen from the CCP is that they want to know where it came from, and they want us to tell them what we know in exchange for what they know, they have questions, good questions, and they would like answers.

Posted by: Bemildred | Apr 18 2020 21:18 utc | 53

For a while now I have been thinking it will be deflation followed by a currency collapse of some kind. The Big Deflation is proceeding at a ferocious rate. Wages, commodities, rents, real estate, durable goods are all dropping rapidly. Everything except share prices and corporate debt are collapsing in value.

Share prices and bonds are being propped up by the Fed in spite of the collapse of corporate income and the ability to repay debt. Debt that can't be repaid won't be repaid. That makes it worth zero (or close) but debt holders simply "pretend and extend" because if debt is worth zero then they are insolvent.

I have been wondering exactly what might trigger the end of Federal Reserve Notes. If Dear Leaders actually default on US Treasury bonds, that would do it. Uncle Sam is holding a gun to his own head and telling the Chinese, "Do what I say or the bearded guy gets it!" It is insane to even threaten this course of action. The Gods have succeeded in making Uncle Sam crazy, and now destruction is imminent.

Social Security checks are paid out of the massive Social Security Trust Fund. Like the Chinese, the trust fund holds US Treasury bonds, not cash. If the US defaults to screw the Chinese, the SS trust fund is also destroyed. That is the opposite of what Wall Street wants, which is to trade crappy corporate stock for all those juicy US treasury bonds, which they can then sell to the Fed for cash.

The China policy is back to where we were right after GW Bush was selected President. Folks may recall a serious incident between a US spy plane and a Chinese warplane, in which the Chinese pilot died. The incident revealed a serious split between US commercial interests (like Walmart) who wanted more trade with China vs. the war industry. At the time, commercial interests won and anti-China noise receded a bit.

God (if there is one) help us if the war industry gang win control of the policy this time.

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Apr 18 2020 21:18 utc | 54

As the infamous swamp creature HRC once said: "What difference, at this point, does it make?" America can huff and puff economic bubbles and kick the national equivalents of puppies (Syria, Venezuela) but it is powerless to create cheap oil or intimidate near-peer adversaries. That is in inescapable logic of surplus energy economics. America was built by cheap oil, ruled through cheap oil, but it's over. All the fiscal and monetary tricks in the book will not change that. Of course China faces that as well (Russia not so much for now). The difference is that Asia spent its money (and more) on infrastructure and industry that will serve it for the next generation or so, while America blew it on consumer toys, services and useless war gadgets. So even if the oil engine is almost dead, China has built up some momentum that will carry it along for a while. That momentum is long since gone in the west and the economy will reset once again to a far lower level.

The gnashing of teeth and racist rage will go on in America for a decade or more, but it won't make any difference at all to the outcome. The sooner it accepts that reality, the faster it can adapt to a lesser role and lower standard of living. That's not going to happen until "somebody" admits the scale and scope of the problem. Carter was the last one who tried and the result was the neo-liberal disease that engulfs the west. Hopefully the next attempt at reality isn't met with full-blown fascism but it might.

Posted by: sad canuck | Apr 18 2020 21:21 utc | 55

@DavidF 32, why thanks! I didn't recognize my name at first :)

On COVID-19 as an artificial strain: I believe those theories are here to stay. It's like creationists and fossiles, it only looks natural because it was artificially manipulated to look natural. The suspects are deeply distrusted and considered capable of anything. That is sufficient. The culprits can be US or China.

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Apr 18 2020 21:21 utc | 56

Tuyzentfloot

Oops! Understandable that you didn't recognize it, I muddled it up almost beyond comprehension!

Posted by: David F | Apr 18 2020 21:24 utc | 57

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Apr 18 2020 21:18 utc | 60

Yep, I expect deflation too, consequences seem very unpredictable, except lots and lots of bankruptcies.

Posted by: Bemildred | Apr 18 2020 21:25 utc | 58

Peter AU 1 @ 46, James @ 52:

Parts of that Wired.com story read like a stenographed PR release so I am not sure really what to make of it. The story seems to make light of the safety breaches that were occurring at the Fort Detrick lab. While it is likely that most breaches (apart from the waste disposal issue and the use of chemical rather than thermal treatment of waste) appeared to be minor OHS-type breaches and appropriate staff training was all that was required, I did get an impression while reading the article that the CDC had its arms twisted to grant re-accreditation to the facility due to pressure from the White House to get a vaccine ready in time before November this year.

Posted by: Jen | Apr 18 2020 21:40 utc | 59

I think in this our darkest hour we need to see a way forward, an inspiration, a bright light at the end of the tunnel !
This is it ———
https://twitter.com/dannydutch/status/1250680604808679425

Ok guys pick which side your on ! And let’s take it to the elite.

Posted by: Mark2 | Apr 18 2020 21:44 utc | 61

@ Don Willis 47

There are many narratives on the C-19 origins -suspicions and conspiracies will remain widespread. Is it a pandemic or a plandemic?

However,
Western China bashers: UKUS have faulty memories - their most recent lies: Iraq WMD which took hundreds of thousands of lives and $trillions - but of the latter, not a cent available for citizens healthcare. Felled by a virus.

Times of Israel reported the piece on IsraelTV: This header - "US alerted Israel and NATO to disease outbreak in China in November" (2019) "White House was reportedly not interested in the intel, but it was pass on to NATO, IDF; when it reached Israel's Health Ministry. 'nothing was done'

No one has a handle on this disease. And there will not be a vaccine in 18 months. Mutation strain from India could kill current research efforts for coronavirus vaccine: report

Posted by: Likklemore | Apr 18 2020 21:46 utc | 62

An anecdote and a question:
Anecdote, as heard from a US friend: Early morning hour, reserved for older shoppers, a person is standing in a grocery store queue, waiting to get in. This person is wearing a mask. Behind this person — 6 feet away — stands a man wearing a Viet Nam Vet cap, but no mask. Behind the veteran, a woman is besides herself, standing nearly 18 feet away railing on the veteran for his lack of etiquette (wearing a mask that is).

Question: What should the first person in the queue do?

A) Come to the vets defense and say something like: this man defended your country against all ills, including communism (disregarding for now that it was a lost war). Without this man, there would be no country allowing you rant as you are. There could be multiple reasons why he’s not wearing a mask. Lack of funds, lack of availability, shipping issues, forgetfulness, not to mention PTSD.

B) Be totally callous and join the woman and say something like: yeah, you baby killer. Remember My Lai? Now you are trying to get the rest of us.

C) Just let it be. NoneYaBeezWax.

I’m sure the bar can offer many more options than the menu above.

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | Apr 18 2020 21:52 utc | 63

Great article over at the saker. Official State Piracy

How anyone can even be considering such a self harming and probably suicidal action is beyond me.

Posted by: David F | Apr 18 2020 21:53 utc | 64

I was in Shenzhen China when the epidemic officially started.

I watched closely when Xi Jinping appeared publicly and assumed leadership
(ie put HIS neck on the line) for the outbreak.
Also reassuring was his declaration of open and factual reporting.
He periodically reappears on the hundreds of state controlled TV channels
calling on delegated officials to meet required standards. Fail in this and you are gone…

Most of the official TV/Net information was mostly optimistic, and frequently nationalistic.

By way of contrast, I was able to access via cellphone the banned western
The Economist, The Guardian. It was like two different worlds.
The western reporting was almost all negative,, ,disparaging, damming with faint praise
or making unsourced statements about draconian authoritarianism in China..

Worse still, Trump had slashed the CDC budget, appointed evangelical Mike Pence as point man
for the battle against CoVid in the US and indicated at that point
"The markets will determine the cost of CV testing”

So it is worth following the US closely for details of how
Capitalism deals with a communal disease called COVID

WET MARKETS
I did a grid survey of our 50 Block hi-rise by walking around the apartments .
All had shops at the ground level - around 20 per building, and over a third of them were eateries.
They require a hi-turnover and low-markup for survival . They were in part
supplied by open air markets, where meat is laid out on unrefrigerated wooden blocks
to be cut on demand throughout the day. Yes, the fish are fresh - from swimming
( in distinctly unhygienic water ) into plastic bags within 5 minutes.
Chopping block just given a quick wipe.. Hmm.. I thought this is pandemic country...

Posted by: David KNZ | Apr 18 2020 21:56 utc | 65

Posted by: vk | Apr 18 2020 20:25 utc | 40

"Ultimately, the question every American have to ask itself is this: am I ready to put up my military uniform - or, if I'm old, to send my son in a military uniform - to the Chinese shores across the Taiwan Strait and invade China?"

vk, that's exactly what I'm thinking, while drafting my comment... Since Eng not my mother tongue hard to articulate. Your comments allow me to slide in and add my piece.

China today is not the China of yesterday. China, undergo more than 50years of changes after the Qin dynasty end and started communism rule. Any nations wanna invade China must be prepared to kill all 1.4billions "Chicom" and that includes millions of Chinese, overseas Chinese here and elsewhere.... 5Eyes, EU, SEA, Latin America, Africa and elsewhere... and if our top brass thinks a few nuclear bombs will do the jobs, thinks again are the Chicoms that stoopid? And believe me there are extremely stoopid Chicom include White like my White (mixed) neighbor. Think again Taiwanese are also Chinese and family members across Taiwan Strait.

Observe Vladimir Putin relation with Xi Jinping always careful and cordial?

Posted by: JC | Apr 18 2020 22:05 utc | 66

Spreading in Egypt, that is ca one month after the tourists were there.
http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/367535/Egypt/Politics-/Egypts-coronavirus-infections-exceed-,-cases,-high.aspx
Turkey overtaking Iran.
http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/2/8/367540/World/Region/Turkeys-coronavirus-cases-overtake-Iran,-highest-i.aspx
Same here, i.e. 1-2 weeks incubation a 2-3 weeks til the mortality figures get serious.

Posted by: Mina | Apr 18 2020 22:06 utc | 67

james @6

the accusations it came from a wuhan lab without proof are very much a reenactment of the lead up to war in iraq.. i see zerohedge is keen to push this.. interesting... i wonder how they get their funding??

Under the premise of 'know your enemy' I do look at ZH. It is clear that simple racism dominates the mental processes of many commentators. This seems to override any concerns about 'The Man sticking it to them', something that The Man's accolytes seem fully aware of. Given its propensity to publish Gatestone and similar garbage, it is more properly known as ZionistHedge.

Posted by: Ken Garoo | Apr 18 2020 22:07 utc | 68

@71 KNZ wrote "Worse still, Trump had slashed the CDC budget"

Not true. Here's a quote from ABC News -

"In fact, all of Trump’s budget proposals have called for cuts to CDC funding, but Congress has intervened each time by passing spending bills with year-over-year increases for the CDC that Trump then signed into law."

Posted by: Don Wills | Apr 18 2020 22:08 utc | 69

Dear b,
A valiant rearguard action but 'no basis in fact' is meaningless. The ruling class is desperate, and when they get desperate they play dirty. Meanwhile the Left dithers about with 'facts' and romantic notions like reality or truth as the referent for political decision-making. I must admit this has always been my weak point as well: why doesn't reason prevail? But reason, like any religion, lends itself to superstition too. One can only be virtuous in relation to the truth—Robespierre was right: virtue must be flanked by bia and kratos (the Iliad's poet understood that too...). The Left will be doomed always to showing up to gunfights with a knife—until it wises up and realises reason and facts don't mean a thing to power, especially power on the wane. Revolutionary programmes can't wait around for plagues or financial markets to fall over. They must simply act with virtue, and terror.

Posted by: Patroklos | Apr 18 2020 22:09 utc | 70

Private profit, public loss:

If I create a chimera virus in a lab, or do gain-of-function research to produce a super-virus, I might make millions of dollars and become famous.

If the virus escapes, the whole world suffers the cost of the risk I took (and by the way, escapes happen not infrequently enough, so its a matter of time)

That is a good example of an unethical decision that should be banned. Heads: I win. Tails: everyone loses.

Posted by: Deltaeus | Apr 18 2020 22:12 utc | 71

Deltaeus

The harvard educated pedophile you admire.
linkedin.com/in/dan-sirotkin


https://www.mymcmedia.org/tag/daniel-sirotkin/
Montgomery County detectives have arrested a Germantown man for sex offenses allegedly committed against a teenage girl that he was coaching and tutoring. According to a police statement, in November of 2013, Montgomery County Public School (MCPS) officials notified the police department that a man hired by parents as a private tutor and private athletic
......
A former tutor and private athletic coach was sentenced today to seven years in prison for sexually abusing a 14-year-old girl. Daniel Mandel Sirotkin, 30 of Germantown, pleaded guilty in the case against him. Montgomery County Judge Richard E. Jordan sentenced Sirotkin to 35 years but suspended all but seven years.

Harvard educated. Sent to the big house for pedophilia.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 18 2020 22:20 utc | 72

Ivan

The Europeans had a bit of a head start but you're catching up quick. Being pumped full of steroids like your athletes is a big help in getting to the top.
Another week or two and you will out do the Europeans in deaths per million.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 18 2020 22:30 utc | 73

I'm ignoring all the conspiracy theories about who may or may not have created and/or released this virus.

The simple fact is that *no one* has a *smoking gun* for any of this. All they have is speculation and theories and opinions from allegedly learned people.

*None* of that even rises to the level of *hard intelligence*, let alone *evidence* in a court of law.

And even if someone *does* manage to prove it, what then? Who will be held accountable? No one in the US, I can tell you as a certainty (except possibly a scapegoat, like Richard Jewel). And if it's proven to be China, what does the US do about it? Nothing short of nuclear war is going to hold China accountable for anything, regardless of anything the US might do economically or politically.

So who gives a shit? Spend your time concentrating on keeping your ass safe from the virus and figuring out how to stay solvent in the economic crisis. If the US spent more time analyzing its own failings and less on trying to blame everyone else in the world for its problems - like some "Toddler-In-Chief" - we would all be better off.

I think B should post a banner at the top of every article declaring that all theories about the origin of the virus are off-topic and will be removed. The only virus topics that should be allowed are discussions of its spread, its treatment (and that only from legitimate medical sources), its pathophysiology (same), and its economic, social and geopolitical impact.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 18 2020 22:36 utc | 74

Sorry but Professor Luc is wrong. I don't know why anyone would pay much heed to an 87 year old who like Drs Tony and Deborah is more of a Politician than anything else. Those in the know claim that Politics is how you get the Noble Prize, that and sexual favors to the right people.

No the Sars-Cov-2 does not contain Hiv genetic code.

https://www.europeanscientist.com/en/big-data/no-sars-cov-2-does-not-contain-hiv-genetic-code/

When I worked at the NIH 40 years ago at the beginning of my scientific career in Molecular Biology there was a poster on the wall in the group office for Postdoctoral Fellows. It stated "Those of you who think you know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."

There is a message there for all of you who think you know something about Biological Science.

The Science has been published already to prove the Sars-Cov-2 did not come from a lab anywhere. Arouse from Natural Selection and did not come from the Wuhan Wet Market but somewhere else in South China. More correct information and answers will come from competent scientists.

Posted by: Delta Gee | Apr 18 2020 22:38 utc | 75

Peter AU1 @ 79
Thanks Peter, I wasn't aware of his personal history.
Saying that I admire a paedophile is not very friendly. I'm sure you didn't mean to insult me.

Nevertheless, the article contains facts that can be cross-checked, and sheds valuable light on the subject from a technical perspective.

If, however, you wish to discard it, that is up to you. No problem.

Posted by: Deltaeus | Apr 18 2020 22:46 utc | 76

America is the exceptional indispensable nation. Home of super heros in the movies and their military. Their TV is full of cop dramas with tough macho cops who always get their man. Many Americans cannot accept as a nation that they could ever be wrong on anything. After all, they saved Europe from the Nazis and then the evil ruskies. They see themselves as the greatest nation to ever exist upon the Earth that seeks only to do good for other countries (sigh).

Sadly, none of the above is true. The US needs to step down from their pedestal and rejoin the human race as equals. Belief in your own exceptionalism leads to hubris which leads to arrogance, leading to an overestimation of your own capabilities and a fatal underestimation of the capabilities of your adversary. Americans and especially their government are living in a fantasy with crumbling foundations.

Posted by: Dick | Apr 18 2020 22:47 utc | 77

David KNZ @71--

So it is worth following the US closely for details of how Capitalism deals with a communal disease called COVID.

Dr. Richard Wolff has already written several essays on the topic; his most recent is here: "Learning From Coronavirus: We Can't Rely on Capitalism to Serve Our Most Basic Social Needs":

"It was not profitable for private capitalists within the medical-industrial complexes of modern capitalism to produce or stockpile the medical supplies needed to properly manage a viral pandemic."

His other essays and interviews on the pandemic and what was occurring prior are available at his website.

I was just made aware of The China Book Project series published by M.E. Sharpe during the late 1970s into the 1980s, of which I've located two volumes so far. The first is Fundamentals of Political Economy; the second Science and Socialist Construction in China. While looking for more volumes in the series, I happened across two other sites barflies might find of interest, Chinese Text Project and National Library of China.

Now let's see if this posts with 6 links.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 18 2020 22:53 utc | 78

Deltaeus 83

A lot of people have been pushing his stuff without checking into him or what he writes.
He writes a lot of his own evidence including the so called smoking gun update. Wrote the so called scientific research piece and added the names of two unrelated Chinese scientists to it.

He started the blog in September 2018. One post October 2018 then next post August 2019.
This is the stuff he was writing in August.

The proliferation of agriculture, both domesticating animals and growing crops, brought seismic and irreversible changes to early human societies. One impact was that that populations suddenly became much denser, another was that humans began to interact much more frequently and closely with domesticated animals. These two factors – population density and our cohabitation with the creatures that would become our beef, pork, and poultry – allowed contagious zoological diseases to kick a firm foothold into human societies and marked the beginning of an arms race between pathogens and immune systems that’s still ongoing.

“Diseases such as malaria, smallpox and tuberculosis, among others, became more virulent,” and we’ve since traced the flu back to ducks, pigs, and geese as its original hosts. Additionally, barnyard animals like cats, rats, horses, cattle, sheep, goats, dogs, and birds have all played roles in transmitting – in no particular order – anthrax, rabies, tapeworms, plague, chlamydia, and salmonella....

...Ancestral communities in Eurasia, Africa, the Americas, and Southeast Asia were each exposed to unique biological threats, depending on the geographical and environmental niche they inhabited and the animals they domesticated. Although there was some overlap, their exposures were still discrete enough so that when one community did come into contact with the other, widespread pandemics of the strangers’ diseases often occurred and entire populations were wiped-out.

Living shoulder-to-shoulder with each other and with their newly domesticated livestock, disease became a much bigger threat than it’d ever been to early hunter-gatherer communities. This immunological legacy is still with us, as different racial groups express different rates of a vast array of common diseases to this day.

So what does any of this have to do with love? Well, understanding that requires a quick introduction to that insidious stranger inside each and every one of us.

Another entry for October

Because if it had been, my failing would have been understood and seen as something that is part of all of us. I would have been held even tighter and loved all the harder if the relationships around me hadn’t been pure illusion. I spent my life doing everything I could to protect your son and grow up with my arm around him and everyone else, and yet at the first sign of trouble – nearly all you motherfuckers cut bait.

I am shabby and broken now. But that’s a good thing, because I get to spend the rest of my life with the rest of us broken, discarded folks who know what Real is.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 18 2020 23:04 utc | 79

===> Don Wills @ 76
At the time I looked...
"American Public Health Association:
To the detriment of public health, the budget includes devastating cuts to Centers for Disease Control
and Prevention and Health Resources and Services Administration funding.
The proposal fails to allocate the $900 million mandatory Prevention and Public Health Fund in FY 2019,
a critical source of funding for key public health programs. "

I hadn't followed this up later, but it is
"Trumped" by the cuts to US WHO contribution.
Same story, different knife

==> karlof1 @ 85
Thanks for the references, I'll follow them up..
...Now that I have time in this Locked Down Socialist country..
..11 deaths, 1422 known cases
.." CAPITALISM is ill equipped to deal with a COMMUNAL disease "...

Posted by: David KNZ | Apr 18 2020 23:20 utc | 80

@85 Cont'd--

Great! It all posted. Some will have noted the anti-pandemic protests egged on and abetted by Trump. Washington State Governor Jay Inslee accused Trump of "Fomenting Domestic Rebellion", which was just one part of a major Tweet Storm. Inslee's list makes quite the read and testifies to Trump's outrageous behavior. If the nation and world's to focus on anyone being irresponsible during this crisis, Trump headlines the list and ought to be the only name on it for first belittling it during January then calling the escalating pandemic a "Hoax" on 28 Feb 2020.

If the world were a Just place, Trump's Political Tombstone would have "COVID-19's a Hoax 28 FEB 2020" chiseled into the tablet. I don't care one bit for Biden, but Trump and his immoral crew aren't fit to govern anything and must be ousted. So I ask yet again: Who is the Lesser Evil--Trump or Biden?

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 18 2020 23:20 utc | 81

@33 Don Wills
"So how far down the CCP rabbit hole have you gone b?


Ad-hom.

"Do you believe the CCP narrative that it is introduced into China by the US Army in the October games?"

Straw man.

So that's an entire post that consists of nothing but logical fallacies.

D- Can. Do. Better.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Apr 18 2020 23:29 utc | 82

Peter AU 1 @ 79, 86, Deltaeus @ 83:

Presumably you're also avoiding reading anything by former UN weapons inspector Scott Ritter since his convictions for engaging in online sexual grooming of apparently underaged teenage girls and exposing himself to one of these girls online.

Truth be told, if Ritter still has something worthwhile to contribute to current geopolitical issues, and steers clear of issues in which his past personal history might create a conflict of interest, and his contributions can be cross-checked and verified, I'll read what he has to say.

Posted by: Jen | Apr 18 2020 23:33 utc | 83

@87 - you obviously don't understand the US political system. A 'budget' is a figment of the administration's imagination. An 'appropriation' is the actual amount of money the Congress provides for a particular department through legislation signed into law. The money that was actually provided for the CDC by the US Congress HAS INCREASED YEAR OVER YEAR for every year of Trump's administration. Nice try.

Posted by: Don Wills | Apr 18 2020 23:33 utc | 84

Sorry B,

but unlike WMD, this virus is very real and it is killing people and the whole world economy. And it came out of China. And until mid January, both China and the WHO were saying "no human to human transmission". 2 months after the first cases, and no human to human transmission, we all know that is a lie and a botched cover up. That can also be true just as Trump is a liar and total idiot, as we all know. Et Tu | Apr 18 2020 21:12 utc

It is clear that during the first month of dealing with yet unnamed COVID-19, there was a lot of confusion. Seems that many of the initially infected people had a contact with some particular (popular) "wet market", which could lead to a wrong theory of transmission from animals. Changing an official theory always has some delay after the data is in (in the case of USA and foreign policy, imperviousness to data and logic is more of a rule than exception, but even well-oiled bureaucracy may delay changing official conclusions for a week. So until mid January Chinese were confused, but about a week later they closed Wuhan, a huge city. This was an equivalent of announcing a hugely dangerous epidemic. At the end of January, Russia, having roughly the same data as Americans, closed the border with China, the most strategic trade partner -- not an easy decision.

Mind you, dramatic decisions are not made on sketchy data (they may be justified with sketchy data, but this is a different issue). Would Chinese freely share unverified conjectures before they were really sure, USA would not react. After all, they did not react after Wuhan and a centrally located province was closed, and when Russians manifested huge concern. After that, USA had a lot of time to take some measures, like quarantine for international travelers, ramping up production of necessary supplies including tests etc.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Apr 18 2020 23:37 utc | 85

Trump doubles down deeply. Just before he took out Soleimani he warned "Iran will pay a very high price."
So here he is today, Saturday April 18/2020:
Link

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump said on Saturday that China should face consequences if it was “knowingly responsible” for the coronavirus pandemic.

“If it was a mistake, a mistake is a mistake. But if they were knowingly responsible, yeah, I mean, then sure there should be consequences,” Trump told reporters at a daily briefing. He did not elaborate on what actions the United States might take.[.]

Trump initially praised China’s response to the outbreak, but he and other senior officials have also referred to it as the “Chinese virus” and in recent days have ratcheted up their rhetoric.

Trump said the U.S.-China relationship was good “until they did this,” [.]

Really! China is not Iran nor is it Grenada. And we are still dependent on them for ALL essentials. Manufacturing will not be returning to USA anytime soon.
Also, there is the imploding debt and interest rate-sensitive Derivatives. BIS last tallied those Derivatives at $640 Trillions. The west may need a loan from China's gold vaults.

Posted by: Likklemore | Apr 18 2020 23:37 utc | 86

The Trump administration tries to cripple Iran, Yemeni, and Venezuelan efforts to fight Covid-19, steals medical supplies from other countries, and defunds WHO, and they have the gall to criticize alleged Chinese tardiness notifying them about the disease? Trump had months to respond to the situation and did nothing.

Posted by: Edward | Apr 18 2020 23:38 utc | 87

@89 wrote "Straw man."

Bzzt. Not straw man. See my post @47.

Posted by: Don Wills | Apr 18 2020 23:38 utc | 88

karlof1 | Apr 18 2020 23:20 utc | 88 Byeden... That minds me of the Truman Wallace switcheroo routine....whoz on second? Byeden is ringer.

Peter AU1 | Apr 18 2020 23:04 utc | 86 Pederast cat.

John Mortimer did a Rumpole where the girl was "almost 16", and set up her teacher deliberately with her boyfriend...another pupil. Yes, I agree the guy's creepy, but some US States used to set consent at 12... (Mississippi I think) Anyway we don't know the details (and I don't wanna know 'em)...now it varies 'tween 16 and 18.

I worked with a crew at an army base for 6 years, and one of the fellows was quite keen of what the rest of us agreed were girls of unseemly youth - he was probably 35. Creepy.

I have heard a story I thought credible - from a girl of perhaps 20, that her mother pimped her at 6 to cops who would drop by to "visit" her mother...

I imagine those cops are collecting their pensions right now. I think that's the creepiest kind.

Posted by: Walter | Apr 18 2020 23:43 utc | 89

karlof1 | Apr 18 2020 23:20 utc | 88

Thanks for the chinese text project, that appears to be a treasure trove!

Lesser evilism - isnt that how we got to where we are now?

And besides, when a ship is sinking, who cares who the captain is.

Posted by: David F | Apr 18 2020 23:45 utc | 90

@96 Don Wills

Bzzzt. Very definitely a straw man.

After all, you wrote: "Do you believe the CCP narrative that it is introduced into China by the US Army in the October games?"

That is you erecting your own straw man so that you can argue against it.

I would have no problem with you engaging with b on that issue *if* he had made mention of it.
But he didn't. The only person who has made mention of it in this article and in this thread is..... you.

QED. Your reference to the Military Games is an attempt at a Straw Man.

Slipping. Further. Behind. Must. Work. Harder.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Apr 18 2020 23:46 utc | 91

===> Peter AU1 @ 86
Well spotted:
..So what does any of this have to do with love? Well, understanding that requires a quick
..introduction to that insidious stranger inside each and every one of us.

Jung postulated there was a darkness we refused to face within each of us...
Freud considered this fear immutable, so the masses needed distraction less chaos ensue
This virus of the mind mutated into the polarising hatred we see displayed now...

The drumbeats for war are being sounded...
Make 'Them' different from "Us".
Listen to the insidious hidden fears which justify attack...
Arrange an exciting array of shiny new toys just waiting to be used,
."these will solve the problem"..till it inevitably arises again..
Just as the 2002 'Fear and Awe' virus lead to the death of so many non-combatants in Iraq

Rinse and Repeat.. until we realise that the inner stranger wants death - yours, mine, anyones
Then we learn to listen to it no longer :-)

The Corona Virus has but one goal- to make a copy of itself, even at the cost of the
destruction of its host, thus ensuring its immortality..
WE have a highly evolved brain we can use to rise above this..
..but regrettably the evidence for its use is scant

Posted by: David KNZ | Apr 18 2020 23:48 utc | 92

The view from Zurich: it's a stretch, nevertheless thought stimulating: the duel between Trump and the Governors.

Great Lockdown begs Great American Breakup

The Great Lockdown brought on by the official response to the coronavirus pandemic is bringing many big questions to the fore. In the realm of U.S. politics, it has raised a thorny matter that ought to have been tangential at best: the possibility of a potential Great American Breakup.

It started with the abdication of leadership in Washington in coordinating an effective public-health response to the spread of the Covid-19 disease, followed by threats from President Donald Trump to override states’ rights. It’s all fodder for arguments that the United States has become too big to manage - and several U.S. states just provided an alternative blueprint worth considering.[.]
But as with many things, Trump likes to break the norms. Having brought up the question of the independence of states on Tuesday (naturally, in a tweet) the question of The Great Breakup is fair game.[.]

More

Will there be an election on November 3rd?

Posted by: Likklemore | Apr 18 2020 23:54 utc | 93

Jen 91
Ritter had a good professional reputation in his field. After reading what he done I don't like him but his opinion in his professional field is still worth looking at.

What is the professional field of the Harvard educated pedophile... from what I could make of it, his field was personal tutor and trainer for young girls. Perhaps I should respect him in his professional capacity...
But he is also a straight out fraudster. The piece that zero hedge got a scoop on - the so called smoking gun Chinese scientist report I am sure was written by him.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 19 2020 0:06 utc | 94

Another term for lies is Fraud. The case is made by numerous scholars from varying disciplines that the USA is a complete Fraud and has been that way since 1971 when Nixon put the USA onto a Fraud-based economy. At the time, no other nation was strong enough to call out the Fraud for what it was, and it was allowed to grow. Some nations saw how the Fraud could be used in their favor as ever more US-based corporations changed their business plans to become as fraudulent as their government. Mainstream educational institutions taught the fraud as if it were not and media followed along. Soon, there were no longer any weighty voices willing to call out the Fraud for what it was, and the financial crises caused by the Fraud were lamented yet more of the Fraud was touted as the cure-all for each crisis that ensued, including today's. Indeed, when closely examining post-WW2 Outlaw US Empire policy, it becomes very clear that it's completely based on Fraud--Lies--all in the service of a narrow mindset held by a small cabal of powerful people.

The Fraudulent charges made against China are just a continuation of the preceding Anti-Russian Fraud. And the Fraud will continue a la 1984 to oscillate between Russia, China and Iran, or in some combination. The Fraud will only cease when the people inhabiting the Outlaw US Empire cause it to stop, But I don't see that as likely anytime soon.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 19 2020 0:09 utc | 95

Peter AU 1 @ 79, 86, Deltaeus @ 83:

Presumably you're also avoiding reading anything by former UN weapons inspector Scott Ritter since his convictions for engaging in online sexual grooming of apparently underaged teenage girls and exposing himself to one of these girls online.

Truth be told, if Ritter still has something worthwhile to contribute to current geopolitical issues, and steers clear of issues in which his past personal history might create a conflict of interest, and his contributions can be cross-checked and verified, I'll read what he has to say.

Posted by: Jen | Apr 18 2020 23:33 utc | 91

I am not sure what does it mean "online sexual grooming of apparently underage"..., since the "apparent underage" was an electronic construct, Ritter did not do anything in the real world. But I agree that what is more important is expertise. Ritter has a lot of experience on various weapons, inspections, interference of intelligence agencies etc. Sirotkin seems to have no experience in science, although he clearly read some popular science books and understood most of it (malaria is not a disease caused by contact with domesticated animals, unless there was an effort to domesticate mosquitoes). The claim that in a lab, the genetic drift seen in RNA viruses can be faster than in nature is not obvious at all. It boils down to the number of generations. Scientists perform some experiment involving infecting animals with viruses, analyze the results, and then proceed with another experiment, using the original strand or the new viruses. In nature, a human, pangolin or a bat gets infected and within a week the progeny that developed in his/its throat infects others. It is actually very hard to beat the speed of the natural process, and accelerating it 10 times or more is not plausible.

Importantly, the discussed experiments were done on viruses with known RNA sequences, so there is a record that can be verified. We know about the labs that were not secret, results were regularly published, they had foreign visitors etc. It is unlikely that they had unaccounted sinister activity. In the same time, trillions of wild viruses engages in the survival of the fittest at brisk speed.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Apr 19 2020 0:10 utc | 96

The sad part really is, the fact that almost half of the American public can't decerne the game of misdirection, as DJT ALWAYS shifts blame away from his incompetence.

The U$A totally deserves DJT, and his band of grifters. My nation has been a pox on the world for many decades. And ALL to enrich the already wealthy...

Posted by: ben | Apr 19 2020 0:12 utc | 97

The U.S. legal system is such that I have no confidence that Scott Ritter was not framed. The Deep State certainly had motivation for setting him up, as they did with Assange.

Posted by: lysias | Apr 19 2020 0:20 utc | 98

Piotr Berman "Importantly, the discussed experiments were done on viruses with known RNA sequences, so there is a record that can be verified. We know about the labs that were not secret, results were regularly published, they had foreign visitors etc. It is unlikely that they had unaccounted sinister activity."

That is very much my thought.
On the other hand though, I look at the chimera virus as a proof of concept. That virus was designed to infect mouse lung, and what I have read since that is incompatible with human lung. But still proof of concept that could be taken up by military labs.

A problem I am seeing is lack of intermediate mutations between the earliest SARS-CoV-2 and the bat genome. Due to SARS and MERS a huge amount of research has gone into the corona viruses. Many strains had been found prior to SARS-CoV-2 but none that closed the gap.
None have been found since even with all that is known about coronoviruses. This is the part I find odd. Three and a half months now and Coronovirus ancestry simply drops off the map at the earliest patients that had nothing to do with Wuhan market.
I would guess virtually everyone with a snotty nose would be getting checked for this bug but no trace of ancestry. A huge amount of research over the last decade or so and no ancestry.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 19 2020 0:25 utc | 99

lysias 106

It would be good if it did turn out that he had been framed. He stuck with what he believed on Iraq and WMD.
I read his piece where he explained what he was going through at the time.
The yanks do know how to bend peoples minds. I keep that in mind when it comes to Ritter.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 19 2020 0:38 utc | 100

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