Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 12, 2020

The MoA Week In Review - Open Thread 2020-29

Last week's posts at Moon of Alabama:

“No matter how long I live, I don’t think I will ever get over how the U.S., with all its wealth and technological capability and academic prowess, sleepwalked into the disaster that is unfolding,” says Kai Kupferschmidt, a German science writer.

I have been preaching to wear masks for reason.

Nassim Nicholas Taleb @nntaleb - 11:22 UTC · 12 Apr 2020

One comment about masks and nonlinearities that these imbeciles are not getting.
Reducing exposure to viruses by 30% thanks to an "imperfect" mask does not mean reducing risk of contracting the disease by just 30%. By convexity, it must be more than 30%, can even be 95%.

Other issues:

Use as open thread ...

Posted by b on April 12, 2020 at 15:46 UTC | Permalink

« previous page | next page »

And Dewalt is not a crap tool.

Better than Chinese-owned Milwaukee brand.

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Apr 13 2020 22:53 utc | 301

A few days ago the U.K. Government was asked , ‘how many care homes were infected with the virus ?’ They estimated about 90.
Tonight no thanks to the Government we are told the true figure is 3,000.
Also the deaths envolved are not being excluded in the death statistics.
Draw your own conclusions.

Posted by: Mark2 | Apr 13 2020 23:01 utc | 302

Peter AU1 | Apr 13 2020 22:43 utc | 296 It's worse then you say. In 1960 "school shooting" meant rifle practice, and you got detention if you missed practice, and that mean running laps and doing pushups. The idea that anybody would shoot another person never entered the imagination...I myself recall waiting for the high school armory to be unlocked so we could get the government supplied target rifles and free (not really ever accounted for) ammo. This ordinary public school on the westcoast usa...back in the day.

now, however...

What changes!

Posted by: Walter | Apr 13 2020 23:02 utc | 303

My @ 301
Typo should read included and not ‘excluded’

Posted by: Mark2 | Apr 13 2020 23:09 utc | 304

nemesis & really?

Nobody said it was a bad idea, nor was I pushing back against it. I was simply pointing out that it is a little late to do that. That horse left the barn 30 years ago, and you are just now noticing.

You clearly dont understand the issue here, which is manufacturing in the us, which clearly doesnt exist anymore.

And the more you blather about shit you dont understand the more ridiculous you look. Dewalt is a great tool and Milwaukee is a crappy tool. Fucking hilarious.

Posted by: David F | Apr 13 2020 23:24 utc | 305

@Posted by: susan | Apr 13 2020 5:46 utc | 117

susan: I really like the stuff you were able to find on this 'bioengineered vs natural' ncov virus origin question (as well as on the USS Roosevelt fiasco I read that you previously commented on).

Here is something more re: ncov origin question you might be interested in, which I came across last week in the comment section of an innocuous educational YT on ncov by an Arvin Ash: .

Arvan Ash wrote something dismissive at the beginning of the comment section about "bioengineered virus" claims being total 'conspiracy theory' that evidently rubbed a very scientifically astute commenter ("-4*"),who was very familiar the literature, the wrong way.

-4* proceeded to fir back with a point-by-point highly technical rebuttal, supported with recent literature references, as evidence to support the position of nccov being bioengeneered.

The comment thread seems to have been altered recently from what I remembered, but I saved some of -4*'s links and comments from the time I first saw them, which I will share here. I admit most of the following is beyond my ken, but maybe other MoA readers can understand/explain.

-4* said something like "Where in any previous coronavirus variant has there ever been open-frame CG reading(?) (apparently has something to do with conferring genetic stability/"spellchecking" during viral RNA replication of ncov virus) reported?" -4* then linked to this paper:
"Human SARS-CoV-2 has evolved to reduce CG dinucleotide in its open reading frames"

-4* also cited this recent paper: "Full-genome evolutionary analysis of the novel corona virus (2019-nCoV) rejects the hypothesis of emergence as a result of a recent recombination event" , apparently as evidence that raise questions on the origins of the ncov origins.

Last paper -4* linked to was this one: "SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19: The most important research questions"

Make of them what you will...

Posted by: gm | Apr 13 2020 23:43 utc | 306

james - 276
Yeah, it's quite amazoing to see it happening in real time, because it's the exact same process as with Dems, Clinton's defeat and Russia. An insane level of cognitive dissonance.
Dems were so utterly convinced their candidate would win and destroy the opposition that her defeat couldn't be their fault or her fault, or that Trump campaigned better than her, nope, it was obviously a foreign conspiracy. That such a conspiracy never succeeded in the past, at times when foreign powers were far more powerful than nowadays - be it Nazi Germany of Stalin's Russia - wasn't enough to show them how deluded they were. No, it was Russia's fault all along and their holy candidate could do no wrong.
Back in January 2020, core GOP militants were so utterly convinced their candidate would win and destroy the opposition (and, granted, in early February, I was assuming only the economy tanking big time could make Trump lose), so obviously the gloomy prospects Trump faces this November can only be due to foreign conspiracy. So China's the culprit - since they weren't going to blame Russia after making so much deserved fun of the Democrats for it.

Both groups are pretty much nuts when it comes to this aspect, even though they can have good insights on other topics.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Apr 13 2020 23:52 utc | 307

Walter @302

When I was 5 and started grade 1 (turned 6 soon after) lots of kids had pocket knives and they brought them to our two-room country school (grade 1 and 2 in the same room). Ranger station, mountain, and fish hatchery nearby. Nobody ever got stabbed or threatened or hurt by a knife. Of course, nobody locked their bicycles up back then either.

Posted by: spudski | Apr 13 2020 23:52 utc | 308

Nemesiscalling @300

The last four manufacturing plants where I have worked - Makita & Milwaukee for battery operated drills & impact drivers. All large power tools have been Hilti. Never used Dewalt.

These tools get an absolute flogging - used & abused daily.
One thing I have noticed is that the chucks on Milwaukee tend to wear out quicker than the Makita, but at least they are easily replaced.

Going back pre-battery days Bosch seemed to be the brand of choice.

Having said all that there are many tradies that swear by Dewalt.

If you've got deep pockets go with Hilti.

Posted by: ted01 | Apr 13 2020 23:53 utc | 309

c1ue | Apr 13 2020 15:42 utc | 192

The 0.37 figure is a fact, the product of a random sample of 1,000 people in a German town. Perhaps the town of Gangelt is unusual, but 14% of those sampled had the Covid-19 antibody, which lowered the estimated infection fatality rate (IFR) to 0.37. This info and the quoted passages below are from the latest update of Global Covid-19 Case Fatality Rates, which is produced by the The Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine at the University of Oxford.

Also, c1ue, the report directly addresses your Italy concerns:

"Italy’s death rate might also be higher because of how fatalities are recorded. In Italy, all those who die in hospitals with Coronavirus are included in the death counts.

"... Professor Walter Ricciardi, Scientific Adviser to, Italy’s Minister of Health, reports, 'On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88% patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity – many had two or three.'"

The report then states, emphasis in original:

"Recording the numbers of those who die with Coronavirus will inflate the CFR as opposed to those that died from Coronavirus, which will deflate the CFR."

The report later adds: "It is now essential to understand whether individuals are dying with or from the disease. Understanding this issue is critical. If, for instance, 80% of those over 80 die with the disease then the CFR would be near 3% in this age group as opposed to 15%. Cause of death information from death certificates is often inaccurate and incomplete, particularly for conditions such as pneumonia. These factors would act to lower the IFR."

The article further discusses the distinction between CFR (case fatality rate) and IFR (infection fatality rate) that is useful for all of us to take a look at:

"CFR rates are subject to selection bias as more severe cases are tested – generally those in the hospital settings or those with more severe symptoms. The number of currently infected asymptomatics is uncertain: estimates put it at least a half are asymptomatic; the proportion not coming forward for testing is also highly doubtful (i.e. you are symptomatic, but you do not present for testing). Therefore we can assume the IFR is significantly lower than the CFR.

"Emerging evidence suggests many more people are infected. than tested. In Vo Italy, at the time the first symptomatic case was diagnosed, about 3%, had already been infected – most were completely asymptomatic.

"We could make a simple estimation of the IFR as 0.36%, based on halving the lowest boundary of the CFR prediction interval. However, the considerable uncertainty over how many people have the disease, the proportion asymptomatic (and the demographics of those affected) means this IFR is likely an overestimate.

"In Swine flu, the IFR ended up as 0.02%, fivefold less than the lowest estimate during the outbreak (the lowest estimate was 0.1% in the 1st ten weeks of the outbreak). In Iceland, where the most testing per capita has occurred, the IFR lies somewhere between 0.01% and 0.19%.

"Taking account of historical experience, trends in the data, increased number of infections in the population at largest, and potential impact of misclassification of deaths gives a presumed estimate for the COVID-19 IFR somewhere between 0.1% and 0.36%."

Posted by: fairleft | Apr 14 2020 0:02 utc | 310

Apr 13 2020 23:52 utc | 307 Me too. Pop said "free men carry weapons (and don't do crime)"

Spoke to the Swiss boys at school, William Tell.

Pocket knife since 5....Is boyscout oath stuff. Basic.

He'll ne'er hunt man again; I've settled him.

ALL (starting back).
Now, God forgive you, what is this you've done!

What every free man in my place had done.
I have but used mine own good household right
'Gainst him that would have wronged my wife—my honor.

And has he wronged you in your honor, then?

That he did not fulfil his foul desire
Is due to God and to my trusty axe.

You've cleft his skull, then, have you, with your axe?

Oh, tell us all! You've time enough, before
The boat can be unfastened from its moorings.

When I was in the forest, felling timber,
My wife came running out in mortal fear:
"The seneschal," she said, "was in my house,
Had ordered her to get a bath prepared,
And thereupon had taken unseemly freedoms,
From which she rid herself and flew to me."
Armed as I was I sought him, and my axe
Has given his bath a bloody benediction.


He'll ne'er hunt man again; I've settled him.

ALL (starting back).
Now, God forgive you, what is this you've done!

What every free man in my place had done.
I have but used mine own good household right
'Gainst him that would have wronged my wife—my honor.

And has he wronged you in your honor, then?

That he did not fulfil his foul desire
Is due to God and to my trusty axe.

You've cleft his skull, then, have you, with your axe?

Oh, tell us all! You've time enough, before
The boat can be unfastened from its moorings.

When I was in the forest, felling timber,
My wife came running out in mortal fear:
"The seneschal," she said, "was in my house,
Had ordered her to get a bath prepared,
And thereupon had taken unseemly freedoms,
From which she rid herself and flew to me."
Armed as I was I sought him, and my axe
Has given his bath a bloody benediction.

Posted by: Walter | Apr 14 2020 0:03 utc | 311

James @ 222:

Thx for your reply. I am a bit tardy myself due in part to the time difference.

I have seen similar arguments that Sweden's response to COVID-19 should be compared more to the responses taken by Denmark, Norway and Finland, all three of which have instituted some form of lockdown. But in some respects Sweden is not really comparable to these three nations and is more comparable with the UK.

In the smaller Nordic nations, the proportion of the population who is foreign-born or has at least one parent or grandparent from overseas, amounts to no more than 15% of the population. (Information gained from checking demographics of individual Nordic nations on Wikipedia: subject to bias, yes I know.) In Sweden, it appears that the proportion of the population that is foreign-born or has foreign-born parents is at least 24% and when the proportion of Swedish-born people with one foreign-born parent is added, that proportion rises to at least one-third of the total population.

A huge proportion of the immigrant population comes from Syria and Iraq. One wonders how and where these people are distributed in Sweden - most likely in the larger population centres of Stockholm, Goteborg and Malmo, the biggest cities - what their living conditions are, and how densely populated are the areas where they live.

According to an article at this link, the worse affected area in Stockholm with regard to COVID-19 infectious spread is Rinkeby-Kista district.

Rinkeby is an area long settled by immigrants and seems to have a very high rate of crime.

"... In the years preceding 2008, the state Social Insurance Agency, state Public Employment Service, banks and postal services vacated their offices in the area.

In 2010, the official figures stated 15,000 people lived in the area, but officials admitted 17,000 were more likely though uncertainties meant the figure could be higher still. Of those, 90% had a migration background and 37.6% were from Africa ..."

It looks just as I had feared on a previous comment I made in a previous MoA comments forum: the areas hardest hit by COVID-19 in Sweden are those urban areas in places like Stockholm where social welfare indices are the worst and possibly refugee and immigrant populations are living in crowded conditions and with poor general health: an environment ripe for the spread of COVID-19.

Posted by: Jen | Apr 14 2020 0:05 utc | 312

nemesis & really?

Nobody said it was a bad idea, nor was I pushing back against it. I was simply pointing out that it is a little late to do that. That horse left the barn 30 years ago, and you are just now noticing.

You clearly dont understand the issue here, which is manufacturing in the us, which clearly doesnt exist anymore.

And the more you blather about shit you dont understand the more ridiculous you look. Dewalt is a great tool and Milwaukee is a crappy tool. Fucking hilarious.

Posted by: David F | Apr 13 2020 23:24 utc | 304
You clearly don't read English very well. None of this is related to what I actually posted. Except that I did opine that Dewalt tools are better than average. Which you seem to have missed. "The more you blather about shit you don't understand . . . Fucking hilarious" is trash talk. This was a anodyne little side eddy of the thread, and you manage to turn it into a verbal sewer. WTFDYTYR?

Posted by: Really?? | Apr 14 2020 0:19 utc | 313

@ 306 clueless joe... that is a good comparison - dems with the russia madness and now trump folks with the china coolaid... the root of it all is some whacked out concept of patriotism which is like some mental disease as expressed in both these examples.. i thought religion was bad for indoctrination, but i think patriotism works just as good...

@ 311 jen.. thanks jen.. i recall you mentioning that previously... i was looking at the population stats for the sandinaivan countries and i know that sweden is about 10 mil, verses norway 5, and denmark 5 and finland 3? - i can't remember exactly, but sweden is about twice as large as the next most populated.. perhaps the poster norwegian can comment as he lives in norway! it would make sense that those who have travelled would be as you articulate.. norwegian gave a personal example in his circle of someone having travelled to italy and came back infected.. i shared an article from cbc less then a week ago about the different viewpoints within sweden with a doctor in the gov't saying they would prefer to do as other western countries and i had heard sweden might change it's stance.. here is the cbc article from a week ago..

here is the quote from the article i was trying to remember -

"Many other health professionals have urged the country's prime minister to fall into line with other nations and impose much stricter stay-at-home rules.

"I think that all other countries that are closed down are going to be able to manage their health-care problems better," said Cecelia Söderberg-Nauclér, a infectious disease expert with 30 years experience studying immune systems.

She was one of 2,000 medical professionals who recently signed a petition urging Sweden's government to replace the voluntary measures with enforceable ones.

"The problem is this virus is spreading so fast, which means there are too many people who get sick at the same time and you collapse the hospitals, so it just doesn't go together," Söderberg-Nauclér told CBC News in an interview. "

sweden is at about 11,000 confirmed, with about 1000 deaths.. i am not sure how they compile the data, but that seems much higher in terms of the ratios and numbers if you compare them to the other scandinavian countries in particular and other countries more generally, factoring in population size..

Posted by: james | Apr 14 2020 0:37 utc | 314

Regarding blame China. I read through the links provided by gm @ 305. Last link was to a piece published by US National Center for Biotechnology Information.
Rather than being some scientific or medical study, it came across more as a hit piece on China.

This was their summing up of the work done by China.

Much progress has been made in the surveillance and control of infectious diseases in China after the outbreak of SARS-CoV in 2003. Meanwhile, virological research in the country has also been strengthened. The new disease report and surveillance system did function relatively well during the 2009 pandemic of swine flu. New viral pathogens such as avian influenza virus H7N9 and severe-fever-with-thrombocytopenia syndrome bunyavirus have also been discovered in recent years [11, 12], indicating the strength and vigor of Chinese infectious disease surveillance and virological research. However, the ongoing outbreak of SARS-CoV-2 has not only caused significant morbidity and mortality in China, but also revealed major systematic problems in control and prevention of infectious diseases there. Unfortunately, many of the lessons from the 2003 outbreak have not been learned. Importantly, disease control professionals, practicing physicians and scientists are disconnected in the fight against SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19. In addition, important decisions were not made by experts in the field.

Considering that New York, which with two months advance notice has faired far worse than Hubei which was hit with an unknown virus.... no doubt the average yank will just wear this and blame China.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 14 2020 0:58 utc | 315

@ 314 peter au.. taking responsibility is like the opposite of blaming... will be interesting to see how much they cultivate the later as opposed to the former..

population data on Scandinavian countries.. 10 mil sweden, 5 mil each norway, denmakr and finland.. iceland next with 350,000...

Posted by: james | Apr 14 2020 1:16 utc | 316

Link from Paul Craig Roberts

Here’s why Bill Gates wants indemnity… Are you willing to take the risk?

Evil prick. He's probably got a vaccine waiting go - just needs testing on humans.
Just waiting for the right conditions & people will be queuing up to take it.

Posted by: ted01 | Apr 14 2020 1:16 utc | 317

some music from jorge ben - brazilian dude from the 70's.. real purity of spirit!

Posted by: james | Apr 14 2020 1:30 utc | 318

James @ 313:

In relation to what I had said @ 311 about particular groups living in particular areas at high risk for COVID-19, I have found these articles on how the disease affects the Somali community in Sweden, and in Stockholm in particular, out of proportion compared to the rest of Sweden.

Suzanne Bejerot, "Inhabitants of Swedish-Somali origin are at great risk for covid-19" (The BMJ)

Akbar Shahid Ahmed, "Sweden's Unique Response To Coronavirus Is Hurting Its Minority Communities" (Huffington Post)

"More Somalis are dying of coronavirus in Sweden than any other group" (The New Arab)

Damien McElroy, "Sweden is making a dangerous bet on a 'cultural cure' to Covid-19" (The

The Swedish non-lockdown approach relies on assumed traditional Swedish cultural practices - the Swedish personality stereotype is stand-offish and respectful of others' privacy, not at all very sociable in the way other cultures are sociable (as in, being focused on extended families as well as small nuclear families) - to work. Immigrant groups from other countries tend to be more sociable in their cultural practices and it seems Swedish government authorities have not taken these differences into account. Plus the Swedes seem to have done a poor job informing their minority groups in those groups' languages of the COVID-19 danger and left them to cope on their own.

We should bear all this in mind when we see news about rising COVID-19 infection and related mortality stats in Sweden. What percentage of these could be of Somali and other underprivileged minority (ethnic or otherwise) backgrounds?

Posted by: Jen | Apr 14 2020 1:49 utc | 319

thanks jen.. that is very interesting.. i recall hitch hiking thru sweden in 1975, after travelling from norway and then down all around western europe at the time.. sweden was the worst place to get a ride!! maybe it was just my personal experience but it stuck in my memory how they were not into picking up hitch hikers!! i hung out with a few irish girls in stockholm and that was about my only memory of sweden that was memorable in a favourable context!

i think your post highlights how there are many facets to covid 19 and its impact on different people which could be for any number of reasons.. i know blood type was one topic some thought connected to higher or lower chances of being taken down with covid 19.. there are probably more.. i mentioned earlier i had heard the reason for germany not getting many serious cases was due to tb vaccinations some time ago... i could find the link again if you are interested.. i can't remember where i posted this but i remember bevin responding that his daughter pointed out a similar connection / study..

Posted by: james | Apr 14 2020 2:02 utc | 320

U know, they test porn stars every week or so. If u don't
Test u dont do your thing. Maybe they could do the same with
Covid. U don't test, u don't work or see ur loved ones. If u
Do test negative, everything goes.

Posted by: Absurdio | Apr 14 2020 3:09 utc | 321

The curse of unexpected secondary after-effects...Wally and Igor Nikolaevich Panarin were in agreement back in 2010, at least in theory...and now...presto-chango!....we see (gasp!)

(RT) "Here comes ‘Cascadia’? Democrat governors colluding to end Covid-19 lockdowns spark talk of secession" (includes map!)

(also happening in East Coast.)

It "they" (those good fellas down at the bio-lab) did "it", one may assume they did not intend so nice an outcome...but they have triggered a mutiny in the navy (more than one mutiny) and energized latent engines of secession. Oh! How Jolly! Phuckin' brilliant!

Well, like the fella said, all the plans go to chit when the other fella starts to react...

Posted by: Walter | Apr 14 2020 3:28 utc | 322

We wuz ahead o da curve...https: //soj51[dot]org/

Yeah...but it's a start.

Wally would prefer 1960

Posted by: Walter | Apr 14 2020 3:34 utc | 323

Oh, almost forgot.

Max Keiser said recently that he was fairly expectant that Alaska would be part of Rus again, "sold back" he said...

For rubles? Ameros? Dirty pictures? Or will they vote like Krim?

Wally expects #4 choice (vote to leave/join) and wonders how many rubles for a beer? Will California join Alaska, Oregon, and Washington (and BC)??

Now That Would Be A "Choice, Not an Echo"!

(swiped from Goldwater's campaign)

Posted by: Walter | Apr 14 2020 3:58 utc | 324

James @ 319:

I remember, you found Yalensis' post on the BCG (Bacillus Calmette-Guerin) vaccine against TB at his "Awful Avalanche" blog.

If you Google for information regarding the BCG vaccine's efficacy against COVID-19, you will find quite a few MSM articles on the connection. There are clinical trials taking place on the use of BCG in different parts of the world.

Posted by: Jen | Apr 14 2020 4:17 utc | 325

Walter | Apr 13 2020 22:26 utc | 289
Leo Szilard-- 1974 was in book store Del Mar,ca and chanced on a thick vol w "Szilard" on it. I already knew of him and his stunning communication skills...bec he often dealt w original wok, he had to use common English to when there was no specific term yet for his observation notes...that meant anyone could read and follow his thoughts. E.g.,In US, his patent apps and much of his original notebooks were in English.

I picked up what turned out to be {publ Harvard?] his "Collected Notes" , made on the fly, many of which preceded his patent apps.

Went in every night for a [2?] week to finish reading all. IIRC were 2 vols. No money to buy them.

Cannot now recall an example, but his writing often preceded the later-created tech terminology! And I, a nobody w v weak degree in Sciences et al and once budding rocket-man, could easily follow his thoughts as he wrote. Just a wow! experience.

Posted by: chu teh | Apr 14 2020 4:27 utc | 326

Geewhiz. Sometime back Kerry said there was a "Plan B". Oh, wait, was it "Plan C"? Audio distortion...
Posted by: Walter | Apr 13 2020 15:40 utc | 191

No, "Plan Wait and See" perhaps ... ?

Posted by: BM | Apr 14 2020 4:49 utc | 327

"Off-Guardian creates an army of strawmen. Then launches a war against them."

Please identify the army of strawmen. I have not seen it.

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 14 2020 5:18 utc | 328

Not sure if these have appeared here before:

Questioning the death toll....

"...At the same time, the mistake is being made worldwide to report virus-related deaths as soon as it is established that the virus was present at the time of death – regardless of other factors."

"...more critical analyses of medical records have been undertaken to determine how many deaths were actually caused by the virus."

Open Letter from Professor Sucharit Bhakdi to German Chancellor Dr. Angela Merkel

From The Financial Times

The mystery of the true coronavirus death toll

When corporate media print articles like the above it becomes harder for it all to be dismissed as 'conspiracy'.

Disclaimer: The corona virus exists. The corona virus is extremely virulent & more severe than the 'flu'. The corona virus kills indiscriminately, mainly the elderly but not confined to the elderly. There are more things we don't know about the corona virus than the things we know.

Posted by: ted01 | Apr 14 2020 5:41 utc | 329

ted01 | Apr 14 2020 5:41 utc | 328

Confused because there are so many actual Covid-19 conspiracy theories out there (not disparaging any of them out of hand) in the comments here at moonofalabama.

But are the research and statistical studies produced at Stanford and Oxford, which point to a much lower IFR (infection fatality rate) than was initially thought, with all the obvious implications that should have, is that under widespread attack as a conspiracy theory? Are professor Bhakdi's five reasonable questions dismissed as part of a conspiracy theory?

Put more harshly, has a world hurtling into the worst economic depression in history just going to 'do it' without any consideration of the latest, best scientific data?

Posted by: fairleft | Apr 14 2020 6:01 utc | 330

fairleft @329

"...Are professor Bhakdi's five reasonable questions dismissed as part of a conspiracy theory?"

Google search does not show any replies from Merkel. She might have addressed them in German language media.

A couple of instances of people asking the the same question as you - but no answers.

Posted by: ted01 | Apr 14 2020 6:39 utc | 331

I am also particularly interested in a sample set of antibody tests in entirely model populace.Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 13 2020 9:55 utc | 145

Long long overdue, there are finally some studies coming out and in the works, perhaps in response to several esteemed academics such as those promoted by the Swiss Doctor page and the Off Guardian.

The Robert Koch Institute is joining in, with what look like some good studies in the works, starting this week. They will start with studies of population asymptomatics concentrating on hotspots in Germany (first results coming early May) and later also randomised studies from across Germany. The third component involves random testing of blood donations across Germany. (In German)

Presse­mitteilung vom 9.4.2020: Wie viele Menschen sind immun gegen das neue Coronavirus? Robert Koch-Institut startet bundesweite Antikörper-Studien

The following is also very interesting. I meant to comment on it almost a week ago but was diverted by too much reading! (I always read before I post, but when there is too much to read the posting falls by the wayside).

Vorläufige Bewertung der Krankheitsschwere von COVID-19 in Deutschland basierend auf übermittelten Fällen gemäß IfSG

What is particularly interesting here - not explicitly stated in the paper, though - is that the way cases in Germany are detected and reported is very different from many other countries. Implicit is that by far the majority of the Covid-19 cases in Germany (speaking up to the date of the report; less so since then since many cases involving old peoples' homes infected by staff developed) were joung people mostly with no symptoms at all: they were detected and tested because they were returning to Germany from ski resorts, whereas in other countries such as Italy, Spain, UK, USA most of the cases were detected because they already had symptoms. This explains why the fatalities in Germany are so much lower - compared to the numbers detected - compared to other countries: simply because the observed fatalities are compared to a broader section of the population. In countries where cases are detected through symptoms already developed, the sample of the population (the baseline) against which fatalities are measured is grossly skewed (the vast proportion of the asymptomatics are not detected) so the fatality reate gets artificially grossly exaggerated. In the report, look for example at the top line of Table 1: the number of cases where symptoms are reported as present at the time the case is first registered is 2647, while those where no symptoms are present at all when first registered is 7416. Out of this 10063 cases, all but 1223 are below 60 years old, therefore in all these almost 8800 cases there are only 3 deaths (all with preexisting serious conditions), as against 98 deaths in the 60 years plus age groups (of which 70 over 80 years old). By far the majority of the infections are in the 35-59 year age group (see the top band, first and second columns), but the deaths in this age group are virtually nill. In the general population, the frequency of the 60 to 79 age group is already getting small, and the frequency of the over 80 agegroup with the highest fatality rate is tiny. Therefore in all those countries where detected cases are "selected" on the basis of already existing symptoms and hospitalisation rates, the published statistics get grossly skewed towards the most vulnerable categories. That is highly useful if you want to promote panic porn, highly misleading if you want to understand the reality and make realistic judgements. Also note in Table 2 the figure 1299 in column 2 35-79 agegroup - the majority were recorded (when first registered as cases) as having no pre-existing serious illnesses, and very few of these cases ever developed any symptoms at all.

For those that do develop symptoms, apart from old age the main risk is from heart problems (59%) followed by lung problems (21%). Diabetes (15%) and cancer (13%) are a lower proportion of preexisting conditions. Figures are proportions of deaths where these risk factors were recorded when the case was first registered.

That report was from Germany where extreme obesity is far less common than the USA; since extreme obesity also appears to be a major risk factor, that will be much more significant in the USA where the problem is very great - especially amongst younger people, since people with extreme obesity normally die early.

On this topic of lower incidence of serious cases in Germany compared to total detected cases: in Russia (based only on superficial statistics) this appears to be also to but much much more so - probably because like China they are taking contact tracing (and then quarantining of all contacts) far more seriously. Despite quite large numbers of cases coming in from Europe, it seems these cases are just not being given the chance to develop. Total cases 18328, total deaths only 148, with quite a large total population (about 146 million?). Total deaths per million only 1 per million. As was clear from China, lockdown on its own does not solve the problem. You have to work all three arms as one: detecting, isolating, and contact tracing; and all three need to be supported by social distancing and face masks, to achieve the objective China set of eliminating the virus. Lockdown on its own without isolation and contact tracing is just a suicide pact for those vulnerable to Covid-19, those vulnerable to other illnesses, and those vulnerable to starvation. China did not depend on lockdown - lockdown was only used in special cases. The majority of the population never experienced lockdown. In China all three arms were integrated - detecting, isolating, and contact tracing - and that is why they were so successful. I suspect Russia is doing the same.

Posted by: BM | Apr 14 2020 7:40 utc | 332

chu teh | Apr 14 2020 4:27 utc | 325 (Del Mar bookstore)

The collected 2 volume is now about 800 pages one volume and is used for sale @ 20 amerobucks.

I shall ask Mrs Wally, who does these things, to get a copy when we have the 20 amerobuckies to spare. Is cheap.

I agree about the language and usage. I have heard from men who worked with v. Braun (for example) the same thing. The really top men speak without jargon... (jargon is language used to exclude the not-member, an often misunderstood feature of Rhetoric)

Guys like Leo, or Werner, don't pretend, they are. And this means they're happy to get their hands dirty doing work alongside craftsmen. (The first critical fission pile was built, in part, by "Gus", a union carpenter/millwright, and the boffins worked 'longside the football team drilling the graphite...Gus was a union brother of mine)

His wiki page has a copy of the US army security assessment of Leo..."he expects Germany to win the war" the officer, "Lt Col Constant", inter alia, wrote. (Typical of a cryptofascist officer.)

On "Amazon" some Szilard books are priced such that no one will buy them, how very non-capitalist...more like the DDR I should think...

Capitalism depends on exceptionalist features, it's "internal contradictions" I guess... How Jolly!

fyi (all)
Canadian site with Szilard's VoD in various formats, fyi. Mind you, I can't testify about the crazy copyright horsechit>


More at Internet Archive > tinyurl[dot]com/vfgtzxh

Many interesting books related to the period and the key bomb boffins.


Absurdio | Apr 14 2020 3:09 utc | 320 (testing pornostarz)

After taking a glance at the interacialdoublepenitrationgangbang @ "pornohub" it seem to Wally that they do a good job of "testing" one another! Wally has "known" a few very friendly ladies that were enthusiastic, but really! Some of that stuff must require surgery! and it minds one of Karlof1"s conclusions about moral failure...and even minds one of Sodom story in Jewish Bible. History rhymes??... Oh, I hope not...can we find 10 good people? (read it).


ted01 | Apr 14 2020 5:41 utc | 328 (Conspiracy)

Capitalism relies on conspiracy, so does its brother, Fascism. Alternatively, well, Commandante Fidel's dictum is to always tell the people the truth and being honest...say true and shame devil.Wear a "Moral Vest" (not a bullet-proof one).

Since it's capitalist/fascist arena, there are real conspiracies all over the's basic to piracy, graft, exploitation, know, stealing.

If one looks, one shall see....see conspiracy.

Posted by: Walter | Apr 14 2020 8:05 utc | 333

France has extended its strict lockdown til May 11th
Call it: "controled demolition"
Even the post offices are closed, and they count for a big part of private bank accounts (most people using La Banque Postale don't even know how to use the complicate website they offer for some -not all- transactions).
Lucky for Amazon etc that they started to rely on private delivering companies...

Posted by: Mina | Apr 14 2020 8:42 utc | 334

Walter #177

Thank you for that link and info. Looks like a stuxnet rerun is possible or perhaps the CDC audacious confront at Fort Detrick was a feint to throw the smell that a way.

Looking to see if the Palestine occupation company was at Wuhan.

Atzmon is credible I believe.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 14 2020 8:50 utc | 335

i find it fascinating how the sst crowd didn't swallow the bs on russia, but they're getting drunk on the china bs...
Posted by: james | Apr 13 2020 21:28 utc | 276

Just reflects where they are coming from. They'll believe whatever they want to believe and nothing else.

Posted by: BM | Apr 14 2020 8:56 utc | 336

Thanks BM
What you describe for Germany corresponds sensibly to what Ioannidis et al state about the Netherlands
In the Netherlands (situational report of April 4,supplemented with personal communication from Susan van den Hof), of 1651 deaths, there were 5 deaths (0.3%) that occurred in patients with no underlying conditions and who were <65 years old. Data on underlying conditions had been collected on 67/84 deaths in the <65 age group.

I was wondering how possibly Nederlander have not more cases, considering that they travel a lot (and especially to France, Spain and Italy). But I then remembered that they would rather take their own car to go to these places than a plane..

Posted by: Mina | Apr 14 2020 9:05 utc | 337
for the age of the diseased, cf.4th graph

Posted by: Mina | Apr 14 2020 9:22 utc | 338

For the archive

Posted by: Mina | Apr 14 2020 9:37 utc | 339

i mentioned earlier i had heard the reason for germany not getting many serious cases was due to tb vaccinations some time ago... i could find the link again if you are interested.. i can't remember where i posted this but i remember bevin responding that his daughter pointed out a similar connection / study..
Posted by: james | Apr 14 2020 2:02 utc | 319

If you Google for information regarding the BCG vaccine's efficacy against COVID-19, you will find quite a few MSM articles on the connection. There are clinical trials taking place on the use of BCG in different parts of the world.
Posted by: Jen | Apr 14 2020 4:17 utc | 324

Far more important in Germany's case is how cases are detected (see my earlier post).

As for BCG, I think the connection is more likely with the incidence of TB and the damage it does to the lungs, in which case the BCG vaccine per se is unlikely to have any effect at all on Covid-19. If you had the vaccine, historically you are less likely to have got the lung damage from actual TB infection, hence the effect on subsequent Covid infection. The real issue is the damage to the lungs (and even more so heart disease).

Posted by: BM | Apr 14 2020 9:51 utc | 340

Oh shit.
Starting to look more suspicious that n-covid19 was indeed engineered.

According this APRIL 7 NATURE paper, The virus not only has the known coronavirus spike proteins (ie. in common with the sars virus), that latch onto human host (lung, GI and vascular epithelial) cells' ACE2 surface proteins, but ncov-19 ALSO has other (novel for coronavirus) spike proteins that latch onto and permit attack on T-cells at the CD147 surface protein. T-cells are what is attacked in HIV-AIDS.

"SARS-CoV-2 infects T lymphocytes through its spike protein-mediated membrane fusion"

Chris Martenson explains in YT here (starts at ~ minute 9:00)

Posted by: gm | Apr 14 2020 10:32 utc | 341

Walter | Apr 14 2020 0:03 utc | 310

Reminds me of an entry in the Doomsday Book. (UK Norman conquest era Wikipedia).
About the "squire of Warpenham". (now Wappenham - I lived there many moons ago as a child)
"Who had his brains beat out by the butcher who found him in bed with his wife".
It must have been considered reasonable behaviour at the time as there was no mention of anything happening to the Butcher.

Posted by: Stonebird | Apr 14 2020 10:44 utc | 342

From the latest Crooke article:

the Central Bankers are toying with a new global, reserve digital crypto-currency – against which EMs (and the U.S.) might devalue their currencies. ... The type of ‘crypto’ the Central Bankers have in mind is one giving the authorities complete control: no real money, just a credit at the central bank with ATMs spitting out only what the central banks determine. And no, there will be no real reform – only ‘mumbleswerve’. But that – dirty money, lots and lots of it – is another story. Transparency is not an option.

I agree, that proposal was fraudulent from the start. Nothing could be more dangerous - or more worthless - than a crypto currency controlled by the UK/US elites. Any transaction worldwide in it could be manipulated at will by the US/UK, and of course we know who is designed to siphon off the profits thereof into their deep pockets! It won't happen.

Posted by: BM | Apr 14 2020 10:59 utc | 343

#195 - I didn't realise Washington demanded it. Bleeding was then a normal medical treatment, however harmful we now understand it to be. It was sometimes called "tapping the claret".

Posted by: Waldorf | Apr 14 2020 11:16 utc | 344

Starting to look more suspicious that n-covid19 was indeed engineered.
The virus not only has the known coronavirus spike proteins (ie. in common with the sars virus), that latch onto human host (lung, GI and vascular epithelial) cells' ACE2 surface proteins, but ncov-19 ALSO has other (novel for coronavirus) spike proteins that latch onto and permit attack on T-cells at the CD147 surface protein. T-cells are what is attacked in HIV-AIDS.
Posted by: gm | Apr 14 2020 10:32 utc | 340

Yes, it was said at one time here on MoA that the Aids mutation and the Ebola mutation (the ACE2 site) were too small to be anything more than random coincidence. The problem with that is that the selection of the code taken from the Ebola virus was not random - it was precisely that code which made the ebola so dangerous. Likewise the code taken from the HIV virus was not random, but precisely that, which made HIV so dangerous. What is the probability of both mutations occuring randomly - the probability of one multiplied by the probability of the other - or in other words, roughly, double the number of zeros after the decimal point!

The ACE2 code is what made Ebola virus so deadly. The code from HIV was what made it so easy for the HIV virus to bind to it's host, i.e. what makes it highly contagious. Do those sound like useful additions for a potential biowarfare agent?? Then, on the analogy of cruise missile protection against electronic countermeasures, the budding biowarfare scientist might want to try to protect some of his critical code from unwanted mutations - his control-room so to speak ... hmm, haven't read that paper yet so I don't know, but it's on my reading list (link up above somewhere).

By the way the HIV code I referred to was not for binding to the T-cells, that must be (yet) another one. The one I referred to was for binding to the mucosal cells in the throat, so that the initial infection takes place very efficiently.

Posted by: BM | Apr 14 2020 11:26 utc | 345

BM | Apr 14 2020 10:59 utc | 342 (money)

Considering the socio-political realities in CONUS (states moving away from the federal state and toward secession (see Cascadia etc RT) my innocent view is to expect local currencies backed by State California perhaps by gold as well, since California has gold mines. I am pretty sure that one one can quietly do some limited business in gold through pawn-brokers, (especially through Jewish pawn-brokers)...vaguely like the Moslem "bankers" and the Jewish diamond dealers...based on a community of trust.


gm | Apr 14 2020 10:32 utc | 340 In re: "SARS-CoV-2 infects T lymphocytes through its spike protein-mediated membrane fusion"
(and) Chris Martenson explains ...

Thanks (I guess) Wally's pretty sure that Coincidence Theory suggests that "it" came from deliberate and cunning sustained effort by criminal experts... "CT" is used every day by prosecutors, but when CT is Not Used...well, that points out the flaw, the misc en scene, and points toward the guilt. This does not mean the release was with diabolical intent, but it suggests it. Alternatively, well, all BSL4's leak, and they're all illegal (Boyle) . It's like the abomb, once ya make it... "it" takes over. See Golem story...

Posted by: Walter | Apr 14 2020 11:32 utc | 346

Excess deaths official , by UK Office of National Statistics (not yet privatised and alolitical)

Plenty more data at their site released this morning. Needs MoA analysis.
Only covers till week of 3rd April. Excess deaths by the thousands per week now .

I hope all these still claiming it ain't real... reconsider their opinion, to put it politely.

Posted by: DG | Apr 14 2020 11:59 utc | 347

Never mind the theory here’s the fact !
————Conspiracy To Commit Corporate Mansloughter————

Posted by: Mark2 | Apr 14 2020 12:01 utc | 348

Regarding Ebola, just as they were preparing to celebrate they had got rid of it, Eastern Congo has announced two cases in the last two days in Beni, on top of 1 cov in the same place.

Posted by: Mina | Apr 14 2020 12:16 utc | 349


I've found the original article by Dugin behind Escobar's summary:

Pandemic and the Politics of Survival: The Horizons of a New Type of Dictatorship

The article is magnificent and penetrating.

I highly recommend reading it.

Posted by: BM | Apr 14 2020 12:40 utc | 350

Regarding Ebola, just as they were preparing to celebrate they had got rid of it, Eastern Congo has announced two cases in the last two days in Beni, on top of 1 cov in the same place.
Posted by: Mina | Apr 14 2020 12:16 utc | 348

Ebola and Covid in the same place? I hope that is not a new mutation combining the two? Ebola with the contagion mechanisms of Covid would be many orders of magnitude more dangerous than Covid. Hopefully someone has just made a mistake of interpretation.

Posted by: BM | Apr 14 2020 12:51 utc | 351

Stonebird | Apr 14 2020 10:44 utc | 341 (reasonable/ cuckold & bash)

15 years back I was running a crew in an open pit mine, sand screws and heavy mining machines. I had a good capable wright who rode in on his harley right on time every day...but one day he came in at mid morning and told me why...he'd forgotten something and gone back to his digs...and (gasp!) discovered his sweetie "in flagrante delicto" and had been driven by emotion to bash the poor fella badly. He quit and went to see a lawyer. Next day, surprise ! he came in to work, and he had a happy story... The guy was hurt badly, but had come over to apologize...they agreed it was the girl's moral quality that lacked, and that one must not hurt her. The girl was shown the door. No cops involved. But for chance, a fella over with a baseball bat and sometimes, well, they die. He'd be doin' hard time yet but for luck. Boys ought chose with care. One does recall quis custodet ipso custodes...girls do as they wish, in secret. They conspire together.

Posted by: Walter | Apr 14 2020 13:20 utc | 352

BM Thanks for the Dugin link.
As he says:
"What is happening now is a global breakdown of the world order. It does not matter at all whether the nature of the coronavirus is artificial or not, nor is it even of principal importance whether, if it is artificial, it was deliberately released by the “world government” or not. The epidemic has begun - it is a fact..."
He is right about that, at least. But the 'wheel's still in spin"- his mistake, I believe, is to confuse the society which is dying, the post Colombian capitalist/imperialism which displaced the traditional societies of peasant landholding and subsistence-plus agriculture/horticulture, with a society ruled by men. He takes liberalism at its own superficial valuation, as popular government, which is peculiar because he understands that it never was more than a transparent conjuring trick.

Posted by: bevin | Apr 14 2020 14:04 utc | 353

U.S. neolibs’ psychosis intensifies:

Putin’s Long War Against American Science (New York Times, April 13, 2020)

A decade of health disinformation promoted by President Vladimir Putin of Russia has sown wide confusion, hurt major institutions and encouraged the spread of deadly illnesses.
The problem is not that the Five Eyes alliance wages a long-term black propaganda war against Russia under the cover of “fighting Russian disinformation”; the problem is that the “sophisticated coastal intelligentsia” in the U.S. laps it all up—all of it, without a tiniest shred of skepticism.

Posted by: S | Apr 14 2020 14:10 utc | 354

BM @344

-- One short nucleotide sequence that matches a nucleotide sequence in a different virus? Happens all the time.

-- Two short nucleotide sequences that match? Not unheard of.

-- Three short nucleotide sequences that match? Interesting, but that could happen.

-- Four short nucleotide sequences that match? The odds are getting close to those of winning a lottery, but people win lotteries, you know.

-- Four short nucleotide sequences that match and also happen to be responsible for the protein spike that HIV uses to attach and ALSO happen to be responsible for an identical protein spike on the novel coronavirus despite being in four separate locations of the virus' genome, and despite there being no other superfluous inclusions from the HIV genome? Hmm... a probability can be calculated for that but it would be vanishingly small.

The team of geneticists from India who first published about this were right to be astonished by this "remarkable coincidence".

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 14 2020 14:13 utc | 355

Japan virus cases have doubled since emergency declared, says health minister

What a coincidence...

There's another reason why the Japanese central government would try to avoid a lockdown besides the Olympics:

Japanese internet cafes wait for long-term guests to move out before closing

Japan’s homeless at risk from coronavirus pandemic

According to official statistics, Japan has only 4,555 homeless people. That's obviously a too low number.

But one of the reasons Japan's homeless numbers are kept low is its legendary internet cafes, where people without homes can effectively rent a cubicle indefinitely. There's a documentary about it on the internet, so I'll not delve into this phenomenon here.

That's why the Japanese internet cafes are strugglig to close even after a state of emergency was declared in Tokyo-Osaka: they are waiting their clients' paid days are over so they can get out of them. That may take a while, as those internet cafes are extremely cheap, and many de facto homeless pay upfront for months.

My bet is the Japanese government didn't want to have a spike on the official homelessness rates amid this pandemic crisis (let alone to have to pay for their shelter). That's why they held on the lockdown idea until it was clear they had to do it in order to avoid a catastrophe.

Also, Japan should stop blaming China for their own failures. For example:

SoftBank foresees $12.5 billion loss as startup bets backfire

If they want to blame another country, blame the USA, which is a country full of con-men - one of which made a USD 100 billion hole on Softbank's account (WeWork).


China approves inactivated COVID-19 vaccines for clinical trials

There are not one, but two vaccines going to trial right now.

It seems China will, once again, save capitalism from itself - as it did in 1997 and 2008.

Westerners should show some gratitude.

Posted by: vk | Apr 14 2020 14:16 utc | 356

More bad news for the silverbulleters around here:

Coronavirus can survive long exposure to high temperature, a threat to lab staff around world: paper

French scientists had to bring the temperature to almost boiling point to kill virus; results have implications for the safety of lab technicians working with the virus

Long story short: spring won't save you. Don't feed yourself with false hope.


More evidence for my "China hate" theory:

Singapore makes face masks compulsory as coronavirus infections surge to 3,252 amid mass testing of migrant workers

Although Singapore is not a China hater itself, it exists under the same economic and geopolitica circumstances of the other true China hater nations in Asia: South Korea, Japan; plus the rebel province of Taiwan and the the rebel city of Hong Kong.

Those localities successfully repelled the first wave only - and only - because it came from Mainland China. They were ready to do so for the simple reason they already were ready to wage war against Mainland China.

But the second wave is comming from westerners who are travelling by plane to those countries. Those are unstoppable.

Posted by: vk | Apr 14 2020 14:25 utc | 357

With all the frightening events and craziness associated with the growing covid-19 pandemic now, my mind keeps drifting back to eerie parallels with the sci-fi thriller TV series "Counterpart", which starred J. K. Simmons as Howard Silk, the (dual) central characters in the popular series which ran for two (2017-2018 seasons). A third season was cancelled in Feb 2019.


"Howard Silk, a gentle, quiet office worker, has been working for a Berlin-based United Nations agency, the Office of Interchange (OI), for thirty years; however, his rank is too low for him to be told what his work really involves, with him exchanging pre-scripted nonsensical messages. In fact, OI oversees a crossing point, below the OI headquarters, to a parallel Earth (the "Prime world"). The parallel Earth was created in 1987 during an experiment by East German scientists when only a scientist named Yanek was on-site. The original "Alpha world" Yanek meets his new "Prime world" counterpart, and they soon begin studying how the initially identical Earths start to exhibit subtle differences.

The differences become drastically more pronounced after 1996, when a deadly virus kills hundreds of millions in the Prime world. The virus is suspected of being purposefully delivered from the Alpha world, resulting in a tense Cold War state between the two worlds, with counterparts used as spies and sleeper agents. Silk's Alpha world continues to resemble ours, but the Prime world becomes quite different, with Howard Silk Prime being a ruthless and cold intelligence operator. Matters escalate during the series when a powerful rogue faction on Prime executes long simmering plans to get revenge on Alpha."

Spoiler alert: In the end operatives from Prime, successfully exact revenge for the 1996 flu pandemic by inflicting upon 2017 Alpha world a new deadly flu pandemic.

Posted by: gm | Apr 14 2020 14:28 utc | 358

Regarding Dugin's analysis:

He is right about one thing, a brittle and ill-thought-out world system has been given a shattering blow. What comes to pass in its wake seems much less determinate, as he somewhat alludes to before theorizing about it a bit more.

I think he is right about the devolution of power and control downwards, too. It will be interesting to see what the Federal government will do in its present debilitated state to counter resistance from below, which will surely come as people's basic needs are no longer met.

Governments that still retain some legitimacy, some trust, some ability to govern, can be expected to do better.

Posted by: Bemildred | Apr 14 2020 15:06 utc | 359

The ancestry tracing of the virus all points to a common ancestor one or two steps removed from the original Wuhan market cluster. One of the studies has a separate small cluster at Guangdong the same distance removed from the common ancestor.
Nothing can be found prior to these two clusters. SARS originated in Guangdong and the virus was found in civet cats at the market. With the cluster of a new corona virus centered on the market, the market was immediately checked for animal host and nothing found. Rathe than one or two vendors and their customers being in the first cluster it was mostly vendors and market workers. As though they had all been exposed at a meeting or something.

The initial small cluster in Guangdong had no contacts or links to Wuhan. SARS originated in Wuhan.
The cluster in Wuhan was mostly vendors and market workers which seems odd. Though not if intent is to spread disease. SARS originated in Guangdong and Wuhan has the bio lab. Very helpfull if somebody wants it labeled as China virus - China is responsible ect.

An after thought on that is a young market worker with a 'cold' who delivers goods to various vendors could be the father of the Wuhan market cluster.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 14 2020 15:38 utc | 360

@ 325 jen... thanks... you are correct on all accounts!

@ 340 BM... thanks for greater clarity on this topic.. @343 - that crooke article is quite good and i agree with your viewpoint on the cryptocurrency topic as well... and thanks for the dugin link!

@347 dg.. thanks for that.. not sure how that is going to be taken by some... i would be curious though!

Posted by: james | Apr 14 2020 15:44 utc | 361

@ 328 norwegian.. b quote ""Off-Guardian creates an army of strawmen. Then launches a war against them."

norwegian quote "Please identify the army of strawmen. I have not seen it. "

title of off-g article - "Why are some respected alt-media embracing a police state?"

article does not give any concrete examples by naming names... the alt-media comment/smear is a strawman backed up with nothing...

Posted by: james | Apr 14 2020 15:53 utc | 362

perhaps they could've given examples without naming names... i didn't see any of that either..

Posted by: james | Apr 14 2020 16:14 utc | 363

@ norwegian.. perhaps an even better example is with dugins article that was linked above by BM @ 350.. but with dugin, he doesn't lay the blame at alt medias doorstep!! that is a big difference.. let me quote from dugin... it aligns with some of the sentiment from the off-g article, excluding the alt media slag...

"Post-liberal dictatorship

Over the course of this epidemic, a new state is emerging which is beginning to function with new rules. It is very likely that in the process of the state of emergency there will be a shift of power from formal rulers to technical and technological functionaries, e.g., the military, epidemiologists, and institutions especially created for such extreme circumstances. The physical threat which the virus poses to leaders is forcing them to be placed in special conditions that are not always compatible with full control over situations. As legal norms are suspended, new algorithms of behavior and new practices are beginning to be deployed. Thus is born the dictatorial state, which, unlike the liberal-democratic state, has completely different goals, foundations, principles and axioms. In this case, the "world government" is dissolved, because any supranational strategy loses all meaning. Power is rapidly moving to an ever lower level - but not to society and not to citizens, but to the military-technological and medical-sanitary level. A radically new rationality is gaining force - not the rationale of democracy, freedom, the market and individualism, but that of pure survival, for which responsibility is assumed by a subject combining direct power and the possession of technical, technological, and medical logistics. Moreover, in the network society, such is based on a system of total surveillance excluding any kind of privacy."

Posted by: james | Apr 14 2020 16:20 utc | 364

I see the comment I made yesterday that was the first of two in a row to be swallowed by the Cloud has reappeared in the queue at the time it was posted @233 should anyone care to read it.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 14 2020 17:07 utc | 365

Perer AU1 #315

Re: hate China.

A friend tells China rounded up all mask stock in company warehouses in Australia and sent all back to China. I dont follow oz media so I expressed surprise that Australia stock in any Chinese warehouse (if such existed) would be inconsequential. It would be made in a day in China. So I followed up and it was explained that the story was run in the Sydney morn herald, guardian, Sunday mail etc.

I smell Institute of Statecraft peddling xenophobic tripe yet again. What do you make of it?

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 14 2020 17:07 utc | 366

Peter AU1 | Apr 14 2020 15:38 utc | 360

Peter. I have seen a"spread" that an University group has made by using the genomes from known mutations. This was a mathematical printout so it did not have a "source". What was interesting is that there are three "strains" (or "blobs". call them a,b and c). Very small interconnection. One thing that was evident is that the "Wuhan" strain (B) was prevalent in E Asia and beyond, The C strain was Italy, France, EU and also Hong Kong and Singapore, The A strain was Australia and the US.
OK. This was a mathematical construct so it didn't "follow the cases" to a hypothetical singular origin.

I have not been following closely the arguments about the origin itself. There are almost too many ramifications (and theories) to be sure of one or another.
ie; Wuhan links to the French (Lévy and the early research by another Frenchman into Bat carried viruses. Different bat by the way.) or to US finance behind Wuhan, or to other "interested parties" is not clear at all. (I think there is even a tie up with Sanofi/Gates - or maybe I'm just extrapolating from the latest gossip) One other theory is that one "cluster" came from the Soldiers that stayed not far from the market, who might have been responsible for the 42 cases in the Hotel itself. (7 of whom also visited the market). (The US Detrick biolab connection).

All of which mean that "it is all as clear as mud". Note that they did NOT sell bats in the Wuhan market.
So your last paragraph; young market worker with a 'cold' who delivers goods to various vendors could be the father of the Wuhan market cluster. He may be the father of many in the Wuhan market, but I doubt that he was carrying Coronavirus at the time. (He may have had a mask but was probably not using any "protection"?)

Posted by: Stonebird | Apr 14 2020 17:10 utc | 367

@ 365 karlof1... your post @ 233 had come thru by the time i posted and commented on it @ 265... - some time ago!

Posted by: james | Apr 14 2020 17:20 utc | 368

The master plan is still underway. China, after years of practice has contained the latest effort in recent years to destroy its economy. USA cannot believe the data - there's no way they could have contained this so quickly. That wasn't supposed to happen. We were supposed to sit and watch as it fell apart and offer help to those poor businesses that went tits up and relocated them to India (few back to the new world). Trump still thinks he's in the middle of an exercise. BoJo is probably recovering from a heart attack after realising the magnitude of it all. Next step is war. Only way to deflect/distract us before we are enlightened.

Posted by: Jagsfan | Apr 14 2020 17:44 utc | 369

Karlof1 Re post 233


My understanding of the Tao is that of "change". One thing will become (or lead to) another. (but not necessarily the opposite). So a "lockdown" would automatically lead to an "opening" somewhere.
Ie. So it would not be the idea of a "permanent" lockdown, but a situation that has within it the seeds of something new.
This comes from the "I Ching" or book of changes, which the Japanese Government used as a matter of course before WWII. They stopped using it which doesn't seem to have helped them in any way, but I wonder if the Chinese didn't discretely refer to it before acting as they did?

Posted by: Stonebird | Apr 14 2020 17:49 utc | 370

james @368--

Thanks! As I said at the time, I was fucking through, and went along to deal with other things.

BM @350 and elsewhere--

Thanks very much for doing the digging to get that! Then there're your other comments which are quite valuable!

William Gruff & Walter--

Thanks for your many comments. Went and constructed a historical timeline for the current banditry that begins with the conflict between Elizabethan England and Spain's European Empire with the promotion of Francis Drake to that of the first State Sponsored Terrorist with the Armada as that world's attempt at Shock & Awe to uproot and destroy that era's source of terrorism. Yes, you need to look at that era's history from a completely different POV from that drummed into us by our Pro-Anglo indoctrination.

As for Cascadia, the problem with that--as always--is Southern California and the various outposts of the Outlaw US Empire that would act similarly as Ft. Sumter.

For barflies I missed, and there are several, thanks for your contributions too!

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 14 2020 17:49 utc | 371

" This explains why the fatalities in Germany are so much lower - compared to the numbers detected - compared to other countries: simply because the observed fatalities are compared to a broader section of the population. In countries where cases are detected through symptoms already developed, the sample of the population (the baseline) against which fatalities are measured is grossly skewed (the vast proportion of the asymptomatics are not detected) so the fatality rate gets artificially grossly exaggerated.
BM @ 332

Kurz um, it's all about the DENOMINATOR.
This point is taking a long time to sink in, although it was clearly explained by, among others, Dr. Jay Bhattacharya of Stanford weeks ago.
Namely, Dr. Bhat stated that until we get a reliable denominator from serological studies of the whole population of a country (based on randomized studies) to establish how many people overall have been infected with the virus (whether or not they became ill), we will not get a handle on the actual danger of this virus as compared to flu or other illnesses. You cannot just count deaths. That is primitive. You put the number of deaths over the line of the fraction and you must put a realistic denominator below the line to get a realistic mortality rate.

"denominator" definition:

" the number below the line in a common fraction; a divisor.
[e.g.] 'a figure representing the total population in terms of which statistical values are expressed.' "

Posted by: Really?? | Apr 14 2020 18:07 utc | 372


The study you mention is this one by PNAS.
This one is by GISAID

I have run onto a few links of Pasteur Institute to Wuhan.
According to wikipedia The Wuhan Institute of Virology is linked to 'Galveston National Laboratory in the University of Texas'.

Looking at the way the virus tracing is done, I doubt the various was around long before the outbreak at Wuhan. Two generations or two hosts. Chart for speed of mutations in both studies puts patient one at early or start December.

Re the bats. The PNAS chart shows the bat virus in bottom right corner.n Each little cross on the line up to the main clusters represents one mutation. The bat virus strain is the closest known ancestor but a big leap from there to the first clusters.
Considering the amount of research that has gone into corona viruses since SARS and MERS - that there is a massive jump in mutation from bat to the first humans which is completely unknown is odd. No animal hosts, no human hosts showing intermediate strains.
That and market vendors and workers being the first Wuhan cluster with no animal hosts makes me think the intermediate stages took place in a lab.

This paragraph from a Chinese report in January.
"Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market has western and eastern sections, and 15 environmental specimens collected in the western section were positive for 2019-nCoV virus through RT-PCR testing and genetic sequencing analysis. Despite extensive searching, no animal from the market has thus far been identified as a possible source of infection."

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 14 2020 18:21 utc | 373

karlof1 @ 371

Re: ". . .Elizabethan England and Spain's European Empire with the promotion of Francis Drake to that of the first State Sponsored Terrorist with the Armada as that world's attempt at Shock & Awe to uproot and destroy that era's source of terrorism."

Did you happen to come across Gunnar Thompson's "Drake"? It's a great read.

Posted by: pogohere | Apr 14 2020 18:22 utc | 374

@Dan F #228
I don't understand what you're trying to say.
The government stats aren't reliable but the trade deficit numbers - which are derived from these exact same stats, aren't?
You have just lost enormous credibility.

Posted by: c1ue | Apr 14 2020 18:29 utc | 375

Stonebird @370--

Thanks for your reply! I was introduced to Asian Thought within a Comparative Religions Course during my Sophomore Highschool year in 1970-71, which further sparked my interest in Asia. Over the years it's become much clearer that Asian Thought represents many decades of observations of Nature and human interactions within its Milieu that promotes deep introspection prior to making a response versus the knee-jerk rashness so often displayed by Western Thought as the current crisis well illustrates. Within Asian History, there've been two episodes where Western Thought infected Asian actors and caused them to mimic Western behavior within the socio-economic-political sphere--Meiji then Taisho eras that were the foundations for Imperial Japan and its conception of a Japanese-centric Empire (its Co-Prosperity Sphere), and the Chiang Kai-shek led Kuomintang and Warlord Mafia with Chinese Characteristics that looted the Chinese people, sought accommodation with Japan upon its invasion in 1931, and was perhaps the first Kleptocratic regime. Mao and his CCP shared roots with Sun Yatsen's republic but insisted on retention of Chinese attributes--particularly Confucian Collectivism--and split with Chiang's Kuomintang in 1926 that marked the onset of the 23 yearlong Civil War which showed the true nature of each side to the Chinese People. The retention of Western Thought in Japan, Taiwan, and South Korea is a direct result of their Colonial subordination to the Outlaw US Empire and can only free themselves from their situation by readopting their longstanding Asian Thought and Traditions, which we see happening in South Korea and somewhat in Taiwan. It seems there's little hope for the Japanese; somehow they must throw off their Western Yoke, regain their Asianness and realign themselves with their neighbors. Of all the Outlaw US Empire's Colonies, Japan's the most important, and lots of resources will be spent to force it to remain Colonized.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 14 2020 18:41 utc | 376

uncle tungsten 366

Yeah. Looked it up and mostly propaganda bad China shit that has been ongoing since Harris's great walls of sand.
No doubt Chinese companies would have been sending stocks back to China and quite likely bulk purchases as China at that point was the only country hit by a rapidly growing epidemic - everything apart from that just narrative. Lot of filler shit about ties to military, running around chemists buying masks ect.

ABC world news site always has one or more current hit pieces on China and this has been ongoing since Trump sent Harris over to get AU on the right track when the yanks were making noise about China in the SCS.

From the SMH piece...
"A key figure in mobilising the Chinese Australian humanitarian effort was Wuhan-born Simon Zhou, the deputy mayor of Ryde council in Sydney. Mr Zhou was one of a number of prominent Chinese figures on hand to farewell a charter flight filled with medical supplies which left Sydney on 24 February.....
....Mr Zhou provided a letter he sent to the prime minister on March 16, in which he suggested that all healthcare workers across Australia should be required “to wear masks, goggles and other epidemic prevention equipment”. His letter also demanded an explanation as to “How will the government manage resources such as ICU beds, ventilators and other medical supplies?”"

Apparently pushing the Australian government to prepare was one of his sins.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 14 2020 18:46 utc | 377

@fairleft #310
A study of 1000 people means nothing without details like the average age of the study participant. If the average age is 40, it wouldn't surprise me to see a low mortality rate.

As for Italy data being skewed by misclassification: low credibility.

The mortality rates for nCOV are so high that they're clearly and unequivocably increasing overall mortality. Even if every single death of any cause for everyone infected with nCOV was classified as nCOV - the impact would be small compared to the nCOV mortality vs. normal mortality - unless you want to postulate very high levels of nCOV infection.
Which, for Italy overall as of today is 3465 vs. an average monthly mortality of 8833. So 30% or more of the population would have to be nCOV positive, and mortality all pointed to nCOV to skew the number.

For Lombardy, ncOV mortality per 10M pop is 11054 vs. normal monthly mortality of 7681. This requires 144% of the population to have nCOV and die of other causes and be classified as an nCOV mortality.

For Emilia-Romagni - nCOV mortality per 10M is 6066 vs. normal monthly mortality of 9308. 65% nCOV infection rate *and* misclassification.

For New York - nCOV mortality per 10M is 5573 vs. normal monthly mortality of 6500. 86% nCOV infection rate *and* misclassification.

Posted by: c1ue | Apr 14 2020 18:46 utc | 378

@ All

I recommend part II of the “Dark Winter” artikle from W.Webb & R.Diego.

A Killer Enterprise: How One Of Big Pharma’s Most Corrupt Companies Plans To Corner The Covid-19 Cure Market thelastamericanvagabond [dot]com

“In 1999, the New York Times would describe Hauer’s job as “sitting around all day thinking up horrifying ways for things to be destroyed and people to die.” It would also note that Hauer described his expertise regarding specific emergency situations as follows: “helicopter crash, subway fire, water main break, ice storm, heat wave, blackout, building collapse, building collapse, building collapse.” His obsession with building collapses even led him to house “trophies” of the building collapses he had overseen and responded to. How odd then that Hauer’s multi-million dollar “bunker” itself would later fall victim to building collapse, falling into its own footprint in 7 seconds on September 11, 2001.”


From LaRouche:

“Now Is The Time To Reorganize The Financial System”

“World-wide, central banks are bailing out worthless financial assets held by the City of London and Wall Street --this in a midst of a pandemic of global suffering, and, in the developing sector of the world and impoverished areas right here in the U.S., almost certain death.

To see how these maniacs think just look at the investment article today by the “formidable Wall Street figure” and Davos raconteur Scott Minerd, billionaire CEO of Guggenheim Investments, who told his clients COVID-19 is going to devastate the developing countries—which he calls, in the customary contemptuous finance-speak, “emerging markets” or just “EMs.” ”

“Conference: Mankind’s Existence Now Depends on the Establishment of a New Paradigm!” International conference online April 25-26.

“This conference takes place in a time that challenges our moral fitness to survive. Even before the outbreak of the double crisis of the coronavirus pandemic and the ongoing financial blowout, it was evident that the old world order — the attempted establishment of a unipolar world after the disintegration of the Soviet Union — was breaking apart. With the spread of the pandemic and the turn by the central banks to “helicopter money,” we have now reached exactly the moment Lyndon LaRouche had warned about in August 1971, when he forecast that the monetarist floating-exchange-rate policies adopted by President Nixon, following his abandoning of the Bretton Woods system, would lead to a new depression and the danger of a new fascism. From 1974 on, LaRouche and his science team warned repeatedly and published numerous studies, which pointed to the danger of the reemergence of old diseases and new pandemics as a result of the austerity policies imposed on the developing sector by the World Bank and the IMF.”

“Blaming China is Just What Wall St. and the City of London Want”

Morning Briefing with Harley Schlanger. - 14 -15 min. vid.

“The Last Days of Pompeo”
“How long can Mike last?” - Short 3 min. vid.


Posted by: mm | Apr 14 2020 18:49 utc | 379

c1ue | Apr 14 2020 18:29 utc | 375

"which are derived from these exact same stats ..."

Depends on who's doing the "deriving". There are plenty of places that derive valid info from available statistics. Shadowstats is one. Every statistic that the government puts out is manipulated toward whatever end they are promoting at that moment in time.

Look at unemployment numbers for example, ridiculously understated. Per the government: What do you call an unemployed person runs out of UI benefits, but still has not found work? No longer technically unemployed.

How many times does the government get to lie to you and still have any credibility concerning, literally, anything?

It breaks my heart that you don't find me credible. The information is out there, if you refuse to look at it, that is your problem. Nice chatting, but I am done with conversation.

Posted by: David F | Apr 14 2020 18:49 utc | 380

karlof1 | Apr 14 2020 17:49 utc | 371 your #233

Well done!

The History...the anglosaxon diaspora extended thalassocratic rule, until it doesn' We now transition to tellurocracy...a difficult an unpleasant path, but inescapable, I think.

People have lost belief in the US, including, increasingly, US population does not trust it... obedience is naturally associated with trust, and trust is devolving toward local... Cascadia equivalent will happen, I thing, because it's not possible to reform the Federal State in a way anybody will believe or obey...of course this change is expected to be violent, but the outcome looks certain.

The new border with Mexico, between Mex and Cas...Mason-Dixon line runs through (if you extend it) Fresno, I believe... But withal, Cascadia will keep the River and the Bay... Imagine Mr Ivan and Mr Chine being invited to do reconstruction and bring a real pay-roll...that's bait any region would bite on, without a viable if the fed buckies were weimarbucks...worthless (which is expected)...salaries and pensions...and Keiser says both Uvan and Chine are sitting on mucho gold bars...and they're viable and trustworthy...and both have historic roots on the west coast.

Give it time. Remember the DDR...

and Comrade Leo - from Tolstoy hizzown self>

"In quiet and untroubled times, it seems to every administrator that it is only by his efforts that the whole population under his rule is kept going, and in this consciousness of being indispensable every administrator finds the chief reward of his labor and efforts. While the sea of history remains calm the ruler-administrator in his frail bark, holding it with a boat hook to the ship of the people and himself moving, naturally imagines that his efforts move the ship he is holding on to. But as soon as a storm arises and the sea begins to heave and the ship to move, such a delusion is no longer possible. The ship moves independently with its own enormous motion, the boat hook no longer reaches the moving vessel, and suddenly the administrator, instead of appearing a ruler and a source of power, becomes an insignificant, feeble man."

Back to pappy's flour mill...

Posted by: Walter | Apr 14 2020 18:49 utc | 381

Shortages due to supply chain disruption: its not just toilet paper, anymore.
Commercial - schools and restaurants - vs. grocery stores

In Wisconsin, dairy farmers are dumping thousands of gallons of unbought milk into manure ponds; in Florida, vegetable growers are plowing under millions of pounds of vegetables. According to a report in The Wall Street Journal, Mississippi-based Sanderson Farms has begun breaking and throwing out hundreds of thousands of chicken-hatching eggs rather than raising the chicks for meat. An estimated 7 percent of all milk produced in the last week was dumped, good for 3.7 million gallons a day. And that number is expected to rise.

Posted by: c1ue | Apr 14 2020 18:56 utc | 382

Re the Dugan piece. Total surveillance total police state came in with 9 11. Global governance aspirations of the US ended with Trump.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 14 2020 19:00 utc | 383

@David F #380
Thanks for doubling down on your loss of credibility.
Shadowstats does good work, but he doesn't actually collect any data.
What he does is retain the old ways of calculation of said stats.
The actual raw numbers? He uses the same sources as everyone else.
Thanks for playing.

Posted by: c1ue | Apr 14 2020 19:02 utc | 384

c1ue | Apr 14 2020 19:02 utc | 384

You're welcome. Dumbass.

Posted by: David F | Apr 14 2020 19:14 utc | 385

And on a totally separate note:

Forest patches in Northern Bolivia are evidence of past agriculture

Basically, scientists have determined - using genetic techniques - that squash, corn and manioc were domesticated 8000-10000 years ago but had not found any evidence of this is archeology.

What's more interesting is that this, if true, means a multiple locations domesticated plants for agriculture roughly about the same time: 10,000 years ago. These were:
1) In Mesopotamia, wheat and barley.
2) In China, millet and rice.
3) In the New Guinea Highlands, taro and bananas.
4) In Mexico, maize from teosinte.
5) In southern Peru, the potato

to which we can now add

6) Northern Bolivia: manioc/cassava and squash

And what was different about 10,000 years ago? The Ice Ages ended, and CO2 levels were 180-190 ppm.

Much of the above, outside the new link, comes from
here including this:

paper by Gerhard in New Phytologist (2010) on this general topic. The paper describes experiments with various C3 plants over a growing season at the pre-industrial CO2 280ppm and at 150ppm, below the LGM level. On average, at 150ppm the primary C3 plant productivity was reduced an average 92% as measured by dry weight biomass.

Or in other words: when CO2 levels are low - it is pointless to try and domesticate plants because they just don't yield well regardless of genetic manipulation. The increase of CO2 levels from Ice Age 150 ppm to pre-industrial 280 ppm would have increased yields - excluding genetic manipulation - by potentially 10x or more.

Posted by: c1ue | Apr 14 2020 19:27 utc | 386

pogohere @374--

Thanks for your reply! No, I haven't read that, but the reviewer at your link clearly doesn't think too highly of it. My revisionary hypothesis about Drake, Elizabethan England and its rise is something I've thought on for 30+ years primarily because "our" history casts England as Virtuous and Spain and Evil, which shows there's a very deep ideological bias at work in the historical reporting; so, I've attempted to resurrect it in an unbiased manner. IMO, it's extremely important to know just how poor and mismanaged England was at the time during a century when its nobles were waging a brutal Class War against the peasantry via Enclosure. The most revealing work describing conditions at the 16th Century's beginnings are within Sir Tomas More's Utopia. As is usual for an important historic era, it's rapidly skimmed over with much of what's important swept under the rug while romanticizing various facets, like Drake's Terrorism as seen from Spain's POV then and now. The Ideological POV was recently reinforced by the film Master & Commander and is latent within the Pirates of the Caribbean movie series.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 14 2020 19:28 utc | 387

c1ue "Or in other words: when CO2 levels are low - it is pointless to try and domesticate plants because they just don't yield well regardless of genetic manipulation."

What a load of shit. Planting seed rather than leaving it to chance is all about getting food and maybe not getting food. High yield low yield so long as there is a yield.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 14 2020 19:38 utc | 388

the Dugin piece(thanks BM @ 350) is a good read...the first part kind of highbrow for me, but towards the end when his vision starts to take form it gets interesting. the military-medical dictatorship overseeing the proles, among whom there are no ideologies, just the sick and the healthy. the "naked life" vs the machine. a sort of cross between a cyberpunk horror film and a William Burroughs novel.

in my last scene the sentient humans, in a final act of defiance, take off their masks.

Posted by: john | Apr 14 2020 19:51 utc | 389

I too just finished the piece by Dugin. Wow! This is just type of new reading that I was looking for.

I was about to start searching for who originally posted it so I could offer thanks.

So, thanks BM and thanks John.

Posted by: David F | Apr 14 2020 19:54 utc | 390

David F @390--

Pepe Escobar posted an edited version on his FB which I copy/pasted to this thread where I have his ongoing permission to do so. Pepe's goal is to provide the basics for discussion at a higher plane that will lead to further discussion on yet a higher plane, and so forth--Dialectical Reasoning--to attain an outcome upon which to operate and create Change. Of course, it's given that "outcome" will be imperfect and must undergo further thought to try and perfect. Such action is even Patriotic as it's found within the US Constitution's Preamble with its admonition: "in Order to form a more perfect Union." Indeed, proper grounds for revolt/revolution are to be found in both the Declaration and Constitution, along with the works of several Founders, and thus the action is Patriotic--which is how many Southerners saw their conflict with the North. Those residing within the Outlaw US Empire are miseducated for a very good purpose--so they'll remain timid citizens unaware of their legitimacy to revolt against their grossly unjust condition and the tremendous fraud being committed by the Duopoly running the Federal Government.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 14 2020 21:06 utc | 391

Karlof1 @376

many decades of observations of Nature and human interactions within its Milieu that promotes deep introspection prior to making a response
When using the I Ching, you "ask" the same question six times (to yourself naturally) Once for each throw. ie. each time you clarify the question for it to become clearer. As half the reply can be found in the way the question is framed, you have a "head start" to finding an useful answer.

Why did I mention that ? - mainly because doing it in that manner requires that different parts of a question are consolidated into one. In the case of Covid-19 the Chinese would have simplified downwards to find the result. Eliminate the un-essential. I think that in the West we have an enormous problem to get to the heart of a question to work out the way to act. The Chinese must have come to a similar conclusion to :- "It is, it spreads, stop it., The part that said "where did it come from" could come at a later date. they have been doing this at least since Confucian times. The habit must have become ingrained.

The historical aspects you mention are in some way proof of what happens if "you" ignore the wisdom of the elders !
There is another aspect of Chinese cultural habits and that is the "family" and the relationship between members. This might only apply to the Han, as I don't know much about the others. There is a much stronger "group" discipline than we could tolerate. Example from the early 80's. A chinese indentured labourer, goes to Bougainville, works all his life on the plantation. Son works half his life on the plantation and buys it for the second half. HIS son, Jackie (who I met), keeps the plantation and sets up a fruit bottling plant (type fizzy drink), buys ship, private aircraft. - but HIS son will go down to Australia to get an education and marry an Australian girl for the passport. (The last part could have been changed as you could get a "business passport for about 150'000 Aussie dollars, in which case his son would be obliged to marry a girl from mainland China). OK, We are talking about four generations with one aim.

The only others who seem to have used a "family and group discipline" basis over several generations are the "now-Israelis". (said that way to avoid religiious overtones).
Personal note - I became interested in the I Ching through Jung who argued that if Humans believed in it then it was worth studying. aaand the Meiji period made some lovely bronzes !!

Posted by: Stonebird | Apr 14 2020 21:17 utc | 392

: karlof1 | Apr 14 2020 21:06 utc | 391 (revolution/const)

I believe Lincoln's first inaugural address affirmed the right to rebellion.

Posted by: Walter | Apr 14 2020 21:31 utc | 393

354 S, Putin's long war against american science,NYT

thanks for linking this masterpiece of an epithome of bS.I always enjoy reading NYT readers comments.Where do they find these guys?Psychosis,indeed.Or are they all democrats?

Looks if they're on their way to switch off RT.One of those intelligence lawmakers will do,house will follow.

Posted by: willie | Apr 14 2020 21:34 utc | 394

Stonebird | Apr 14 2020 21:17 utc | 392 (family/group discipline) I believe there are clan in the anglosaxon realm that do indeed conserve a policy goal over generations...Rockefeller, some families in Texas, and so forth. Her Royalness, the Catholic Church...and of course the cliet classes are represented, the Bushies for example. Yes, these are small structures, but potent, building toward power over several generations, and sometimes quite brutal in their methods, not to say overtly criminal.

I mention this because some might say that these clan-families have something to do with...

Beyond that, I think you wrote a fine post. I'm pleased to have read it. Thanks.

Posted by: Walter | Apr 14 2020 21:41 utc | 395


I have read Pepe for years, though 2-3 weeks ago I thought he was losing his mind. His posts at the saker, seemed to be all about downplaying the virus and promoting the idea that it was a purposeful action by TPTB to take over the world.

I had tried to post a comment saying something to this effect, and telling him I thought it was irresponsible. The saker didn't post my comment, possibly for "criticizing" the author. (I am not sure, posts seems to be a crap shoot over there as to whether they will be posted or not, and of course no explanation even when you email the mod).

The last week or so, he seems to be back to a more normal level. As far as I am concerned his credibility has taken a hit. We'll see what his future writings are.

ps. Talk of revolt on a public forum does not seem like such a great idea to me. YMMV


I have a copy of the I-Ching, and after reading your description of how it is used:

"When using the I Ching, you "ask" the same question six times (to yourself naturally) Once for each throw. ie. each time you clarify the question for it to become clearer. As half the reply can be found in the way the question is framed, you have a "head start" to finding an useful answer."

it didn't sound right to me, so I took it down and looked at it again. You do indeed "roll" 6 times, but it is for a single question, or alternately, without a specific question, but more just some general guidance as to how to conduct oneself that day.

I am curious where you learned to use it in this fashion.

Posted by: David F | Apr 14 2020 21:43 utc | 396

Stonebird @392--

Thanks for your reply! In his novel Hawaii (1959), Michener captured the ethos of China and its family which is where I first learned it when I read it in grade school during the very hot Summer of 1968. Having read it, later that Summer at a book sale I came across a copy of Edgar Snow's Red Star Over China, which was fascinating to read against the backdrop of BigLie Media's propaganda about the still ongoing Cultural Revolution. I never considered becoming a Sinologist as the turbulent 1970s negated many potential aspirations.

Walter @393--

Yes, we have all the moral, ethical, legal, and rational grounds to foment revolt/revolution, but so few have any conception of all that, which is why I see the political process as the only avenue to pursue at this time. The Masses must be empowered with the Knowledge that can sustain them for as we both know Knowledge IS Power.

David F @396--

Thanks for your reply! Pepe sees his job as putting forth the many different schools of thought so that a debate/discussion can be had using the dialectical process I described. I agree with him, and we're very fortunate his views aren't repressed any more than there are already. As for discussing revolt, I've been writing in public on the subject for over 20 years mostly in the course of an educational cost/benefit type of analysis. Did you notice we just experienced yet another bloodless revolution within the Outlaw US Empire? The MoneyPower further consolidated its hold with the merger of the Federal Reserve with Wall Street and the US Treasury. Yes, it's illegal, but where do you see or hear it being decried? Trump and the Kleptocrats welcomed it as you might expect. Did Biden voice any reservations? Sanders? Pelosi?

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 14 2020 22:23 utc | 397

karlof1 | Apr 14 2020 22:23 utc | 397

That is an interesting process, much to think about. Of course, this will affect the way I perceive his writing in the future. I will keep this perspective in mind next time I read Pepe.

Posted by: David F | Apr 14 2020 23:02 utc | 398

karlof1 @ 387

"The Ideological POV was recently reinforced by the film Master & Commander and is latent within the Pirates of the Caribbean movie series."

Here's another your reference above brought to mind:

Jewish Pirates of the Caribbean: How a Generation of Swashbuckling Jews Carved Out an Empire in the New World in Their Quest for Treasure, Religious Freedom--and Revenge

by Edward Kritzler (Author)

At the end of the fifteenth century, the Spanish Inquisition forced many Jews to flee the country. The most adventurous among them took to the high seas as freewheeling outlaws. In ships bearing names such as Prophet Samuel, Queen Esther, and Shield of Abraham, they attacked and plundered the Spanish fleet while forming alliances with other European powers to ensure the safety of Jews living in hiding.

"Jewish Pirates of the Caribbean" is the entertaining saga of a hidden chapter in Jewish history, and of the cruelty, terror and greed that flourished during the Age of Discovery. Among the many daring figures to feature in the book are: ‘ the Great Jewish Pirate’ Sinan, Barbarossa’ s second-in-command; Rabbi Samuel Palache and his brother, Joseph, who went from commanding pirate ships to founding the first openly Jewish community in the New World; and Abraham Cohen Henriques, and arms dealer who used his cunning and economic muscle to find safe havens for other Jews.

Filled with high-seas adventures including encounters with Captain Morgan and other legendary pirates – and detailed portraits of cities stacked high with plunder, such as Port Royal, Jamaica, Jewish Pirates of the Caribbean captures a gritty and glorious era of history from an unusual and eye opening perspective.

Fun fact time, it sez here:

From it [buccaneer] derived the French word boucane and hence the name boucanier for French hunters [recruited by privateers to man ships preying on the Spanish] who used such [green wood] frames to smoke meat from feral cattle and pigs on Hispaniola. English colonists anglicised the word boucanier to buccaneer.

Posted by: pogohere | Apr 14 2020 23:06 utc | 399

pogohere @399--

Yes, I recall the Hebrew pirates from another work showing piratic enterprises to be the first democratic co-ops. Barbacoa comes from the same root and is now Bar-B-Que. I need to find that book, The Many-Headed Hydra: Sailors, Slaves, Commoners, and the Hidden History of the Revolutionary Atlantic, within my chaotic library as it has some excellent source material I need to use.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 14 2020 23:41 utc | 400

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