Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 12, 2020

The MoA Week In Review - Open Thread 2020-29

Last week's posts at Moon of Alabama:

“No matter how long I live, I don’t think I will ever get over how the U.S., with all its wealth and technological capability and academic prowess, sleepwalked into the disaster that is unfolding,” says Kai Kupferschmidt, a German science writer.

I have been preaching to wear masks for reason.

Nassim Nicholas Taleb @nntaleb - 11:22 UTC · 12 Apr 2020

MASKS
One comment about masks and nonlinearities that these imbeciles are not getting.
Reducing exposure to viruses by 30% thanks to an "imperfect" mask does not mean reducing risk of contracting the disease by just 30%. By convexity, it must be more than 30%, can even be 95%.

---
Other issues:

Use as open thread ...

Posted by b on April 12, 2020 at 15:46 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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It will certainly be sickening if a large chunk of CoronaCash is used to bail Boeing out of their very much self-inflicted predicament. Here's another article for b's library of the sins of Boeing. Boeing has now apparently been removed from even being considered for much of the space program. To paraphrase, "They used to be very overpriced but there was enough engineering complexity and quality that they were always in the running anyway. Now they're still vastly overpriced but their product is crap."

NASA analysis of Boeing very unflattering

Posted by: J Swift | Apr 13 2020 2:38 utc | 101

A user @99

Assorted Virus News April 10 2020
Please refer to your post at A User @216 & your ad hominen attack on Emily.

You seem to have successfully bullied Emily away - well done.

You got called out & didn't like it.

Posted by: ted01 | Apr 13 2020 2:39 utc | 102

A few Easter musings.

No church on Easter for the faithful. The illuminati must feel like they are in heaven. Their goal of achieving a godless society is in reach. Well, not exactly godless since they think the elites among them have a mission to become like God, as man was made in Gods image for the purpose of knowing himself through man. We shall all worship God, which are our elites, and the priests of this Man-God religion are technocratic scientists. Some call it scientism or gnosticism or transhumanism

The idea is to transhumanistly "upgrade" humanity, create an Internet of Us, and to geocybernically control the processes of the earth system (this is known as the Fourth Industrial Revolution 4IR)

Capitalism. How strange so many here recognize the evils of Bad capitalism, more properly defined as Monopoly Capitalism, or Neoliberalism to distinguish it from good Capitalism -which is competitive capitalism well regulated in the interests of society as a whole, with a dash of socialism and monopoly (state or private) capitalism in certain industries as needed.

When we talk of Bad Capitalism of the sort Marx no doubt had in mind, we must look back and recall something Marx never envisioned, perhaps because it was a reaction to the globalist socialist theories he espoused. That was Mussolini’s and then later Hitlers National Socialism, or economic Fascism. This was more accurately defined as a public private partnership (P3) that is so often referred to by the Gates funded WOrld Economic Forum and those talking about UN Sustainable Development Projects, and has become a religion of sorts in the West and also in China (more about that in a separate comment when I have time) and is really the essence of todays neoliberalism (not the propaganda you read about neoliberalism from its supporters)

Back in the 30’s Mussolini’s economic fascism was greatly admired by the Capitalists of that day, even FDR who has been mislabelled as socialist and anti-capitalist despite coming from the financial elite (much like Trump who is mislabelled as nationalist snd antiestablishment despite being a globalist and financial elite in private life).

Indeed just before and after Hitler took over in Germany with his partnership with German companies - the Capitalists in the US and UK/France rushed in via cartel agreements with German companies to invest and transfer technology. FDR did little to stop this.

FDR if we recall was the father of NRA which was his first priority after confiscating the peoples gold and devaluing the dollar. Fortunately his fascist NRA economy was struck down by the Supreme Court only to later reemerge during WWII. This is when P3 really crystallized in the US although it would take decades to morph into todays beast, and required another Pearl Harbor to gain acceptance for the purpose of keeping us safe from Islamic Terrorism and now the virus terrorists

One might argue that the difference between Mussolini’s and Hitlers P3 and today is the government was the dominant power then, and today its at best an equal partner or more likely dominated by the corporate side (in China the private ownership is largely in the hands of the party elite as individuals and not the state which serves to subsidize their enterprises while socializing losses and privatizing profits-like the West) . Those in government, after public retirement go on to lucrative employment on the private side as their reward. Regulatory agencies are all captured by the private side of this public private partnership

This is apparent in many industries. Many of you see it with Military, intelligence and homeland security, Big Tech/Data, finance, insurance and real estate (FIRE), etc.

However, when it comes to Medical -Pharma Industry and other “science” based industries like the Climate Industry you are blinded by scientism promoted by the MSM spinmeisters supporting the Green-Virus Globalist Agenda. Yet both of these industries are driven by Public Private Partnerships to achieve Global Capitalist and Global Government Control objectives.

As Eisenhower said in his 1961 exit speech where he warned of the dangers of the MIC he also said “we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.”

So looking specifically at the actors involved in the latest Pandemic, and one sees many of them are the same players behind the Climate Terror Industry, one sees a tremendous amount of collaboration between Big Pharma, UN agencies, national health agencies, military, academia and tax free philanthropic foundations (Gates, Rockefeller, etc).

Government funds basic science via military and health/science agencies to search for new viruses or enhancing known viruses with gain of function research, that Big Pharma then exploits to develop vaccines with government and philanthropic funds in the event such viruses are released. All kinds of money gets spent in preparing for a pandemic, stockpiling supplies , medicines, vaccines in advance of a pandemic, studying ways to control people once a pandemic arrives, and studying more ways to control people to prevent another pandemic (digital id, health certificates, mandatory vaccines) . When a pandemic does arrive, all those exercises and simulations (Crimson Orange, Event 201, Dark Winter, etc) pay off, trillions of dollars are unleashed out of thin air thanks to the Fed Reserve and handed out to the private partners.

Disaster Capitalism at its finest, public private partnership working toward total control of people and earning plenty of money while doing so. Companies having nothing to do with the Pandemic but affected (Airlines, hotels) , some of which are already in trouble (Boeing) are bailed out. Small business owners get crushed.


Posted by: Pft | Apr 13 2020 2:42 utc | 103

norecovery @ 65: Thanks for the improved link. It does make a better book mark...

Posted by: ben | Apr 13 2020 2:52 utc | 104

James @ 81 and onwards:

Ted01 has a point. He is right about me at least: I don't believe what WaPo and the NYT were printing about US involvement in Iran, Syria and Venezuela and what those nations' governments were supposedly doing or not doing to their populations. On the other hand, I read what MoA says about COVID-19 and then I read what Off-G, Swiss Propaganda Research, The Blogmire and various other websites and blogs have to say about COVID-19, I try to discern what their aims and reasons are for saying what they say, and then I come to my own judgement.

From what I read on some of these sites, their point is that the lockdowns that have been put in place across Western nations may have ulterior agendas behind them. The Blogmire in particular has been quite vociferous about the impact of the UK lockdown on people's political freedoms and the work they do - or did before the lockdown destroyed a lot of jobs. (Of course The Blogmire was a valuable resource with regard to the Skripal poisoning incident and its aftermath in 2018 but I see no acknowledgement here at MoA on Rob Slane's current opinion on the impact of COVID-19 lockdown in Britain.)

China gets the benefit of the doubt because (a) the Chinese were hit first by a disease the knew little about, (b) Beijing may have had to reason to suspect a biowarfare disease agent, based on recent suspicious epidemics of African swine fever, plus the failure of the HK protests in 2019 to spread to southern China, and (c) we Westerners do not know or understand enough about how China's political and medical institutions operate at all, let alone know how these institutions worked to enforce lockdowns in Wuhan and Hubei province and had the trust and support of the general public in that city and its province.

The thing is that Off-G and others of similar opinion have just as valid reason to voice concern about the actions that govts across the world have taken to cimbat COVID-19 which have the effect of destroying working class jobs and putting millions into poverty while preserving middle and upper class jobs which can be done online and remotely. For MoA to criticise Off-G in the way it has looks like a cheap shot.

Posted by: Jen | Apr 13 2020 2:54 utc | 105

ted01 #91

The corona virus exists. The corona virus is extremely virulent & more severe than the 'flu'. The corona virus kills indiscriminately, mainly the elderly but not confined to the elderly. There are more things we don't know about the corona virus than the things we know.

Loved the disclaimer. :))


Thanks for your long post and link.

Do we know the Hospital bed occupancy ratio for those with CV19 that need hospital level care vs available beds?

and

Deaths by other cause (not CV19 as cause)?

Who keeps these daily stats and is there a link?


Posted by:

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 13 2020 3:27 utc | 106

Posted by: Jen | Apr 13 2020 2:54 utc | 104

"concern about the actions that govts across the world have taken to cimbat COVID-19 which have the effect of destroying working class jobs and putting millions into poverty while preserving middle and upper class jobs which can be done online and remotely. For MoA to criticise Off-G in the way it has looks like a cheap shot..."

I too share your much of your views, while I'm bias, leaning toward China. I had become more a supporter of Socialism with Chinese Characteristic. As I watched both the Dem and Rep bashing each for monopoly leaving the majority living from day to day endless direction. One wonder if China is a democratic nation embraced the capitalism systems, it will surely continue another century of humiliation. China succeeds b’cus she did what needs to be done - with an iron fist stopped Covid-19 dead on it tracks - maybe without regards the feeling of outsiders. She did what is needed for its citizens first and fuck the rest.... Regardless China actions she is damn if she did and damn she did not.

Remember even if one agrees China screwed up or covered up initially but what stopping the US and other nations ignored WHO director general Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus repeated warning prepare for the pandemic... they had at least more than two weeks warning... "window of opportunity still open.... closing fast.."

Posted by: JC | Apr 13 2020 3:48 utc | 107

Off Guardian first of many many posts on corona virus and flicking through them, all seem to be the same vein.

https://off-guardian.org/2020/01/24/reality-check-coronavirus-fear-porn/

China is shutting down, or so we’re being told. Cities are on lockdown. Disneyland is closed. New Year is cancelled. Every day, China closes down more theatres or other more public spaces in their desperate attempts to thwart the spread of this terrible coronavirus.

The headlines tell this virus is “mutated”, and that China’s “lockdown” is affecting 33 million people.

The Telegraph morbidly warns that it’s “highly likely” coronavirus is already in the UK, whilst CNET tells us the deathtoll is spiking.

It all sounds very scary.

The reality is that 26 people have died.

For comparison’s sake, 80,000 people died of flu in 2018 in the United States alone. (at least, according to the CDC).

The above article dated 24 January. Total coronavirus deaths as of 13th April 114,247.


Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 13 2020 3:56 utc | 108

Jen@104

"The thing is that Off-G and others of similar opinion have just as valid reason to voice concern about the actions that govts across the world have taken to cimbat COVID-19 which have the effect of destroying working class jobs and putting millions into poverty while preserving middle and upper class jobs which can be done online and remotely. For MoA to criticise Off-G in the way it has looks like a cheap shot."

I don't think those "middle and upper class jobs" are going to be preserved. The issue I see with the "ulterior motives" crowd is they are not seeing the bigger picture. The entire system is crashing via an unstoppable chain reaction, and those jobs will be gone in a short while as well. What do the western governments have to gain by crashing the system that puts them in power and makes them wealthy? There is not a single business owner or ceo that wants to see the money spigot shut off, nor does the government want to see the tax stream dry up, or spend shit tons of money trying to keep this whole thing afloat.

Western governments fucked up big time by not getting ahead of this virus. When they did act through the quarantine, it was an act of desperation, hoping to prevent a catastrophe.

The result of that is what is crashing the system. We have 600,000 sick people in america right now, almost entirely in the last month, this is happening when most of america has been asked to stay at home, approximately 80-90% of the population. This virus is more contagious than anything that I am aware of, probably even more so than the spanish flu, which literally wiped out entire towns. How many would we have if we had just been going about business as usual? 10's of millions, probably 100's of millions. At that point it is apocalyptic, not just catastrophic.

Had the government not issued stay at home directives, then everyone would have gotten sick all at once, and we would be facing the same issue with a collapsing system, but the collapse would have been cause by a massive health crisis.

I don't think the governments crashed the system as some sort of power grab, I think it is more of a colossal fuck up concerning the virus. Either way the failure to aggressively contain the virus from the get go doomed our system.

See my post at 67, and read old collapse posts at cluborlov.

Does anyone here actually read the NYT or WAPO? Why would anyone, they have a long history of being proven liars? It does not take very much imagination to see what is happening here. A fragile system that has been on the edge of breakdown for decades has finally met the crisis that is going to take it down.

-----

My advice to anyone who cares to hear it: Quit arguing about the severity of the virus, whether it is natural or a bio-weapon, where it originated, or any of the other continuing arguments that people are focusing on right now. None of it really mean anything considering what is coming down the pipeline. What one should be focused on right now is the system is going down! Prepare yourself the best you can for what is almost certainly going to be a very difficult future for all of us. Life as we are used to it is about to take a very nasty turn for the worse.

(just to be clear, this last paragraph is a general statement not directed to jen)

Posted by: David F | Apr 13 2020 4:09 utc | 109

Also, that 600,000 only counts people who were sick enough to get a test, the actual number is most likely much, much higher.

Posted by: David F | Apr 13 2020 4:15 utc | 110

Why some farmers are destroying their crops and dumping fresh milk despite the skyrocketing demand at food banks across the country?

Sadly chain of production is rupturing. Alast revisinting 1929.

 

Posted by: arata | Apr 13 2020 4:22 utc | 111

@Pft #102:

The Eyes Of Heisenberg, Frank Herbert, 1966

Scary close now:

OptiMen, culling the proles as needed, but go insane
Technocrats
Machine/AI as disruptor
Class struggle/rebellion
Attempt at genetic control

The 'building blocks' of Dune can be seen.

Posted by: Dr Wellington Yueh | Apr 13 2020 4:26 utc | 112

donkeytale Dem Party CIA blog killer.

Study a bit too much of teh English?

Posted by: blues | Apr 13 2020 4:36 utc | 113

There are two things that really REALLY matter in this crisis, but seem entirely and sadly ignored here.

1. We don’t know what the morbidity rate of Covid-19 is. Slowly, more reliable data is emerging, and the estimates have been going steadily downward since the virus first appeared. From 3.4% to 1-2%, then 1%, then 0.6% and now, the latest small study indicates 0.37%. And this is an overall rate. It is much lower for healthy people under 75 with no ‘co-morbidities’. The morbidity rate matters because of the second thing ...

2. Choosing between continuing to destroy the world economy, creating the ‘greatest’ depression it has ever known, or allowing an inevitably large number of preventable coronavirus deaths. I’ve seen on the ‘left’ the passionate stance that even contemplating this kind of decision is immoral, fascist, and so on, which I find extraordinary. (Perhaps it was just an outbreak of ‘whatever Trump says/does is pure evil’?). Anyway, obviously, mass poverty also kills. The level of Covid-19 morbidity affects one side of the ledger in making the best moral decision going forward. One possibility is to switch to a policy which carefully protects those with underlying conditions and the elderly but allows the rest of us to go back to work and end extreme social distancing, while continuing to make sure we wear masks and so on.

Other things to say: great post by Gruff at 40, saved me a post. But what vk said @63 regarding @40 is also wise. And, finally insert ted01’s disclaimer here.

Posted by: fairleft | Apr 13 2020 5:09 utc | 114

Donk at 107, it's not where you're from it's where you're at. Hope you and family are well.

Posted by: fairleft | Apr 13 2020 5:16 utc | 115

We really don't need donkeytale or fairleft here. Really. You will slowly come to see what I mean. I promise. This will get amazingly complicated. But don't listen to me.

Posted by: blues | Apr 13 2020 5:26 utc | 116

There’s no conflict between taking the pandemic seriously and seeing the crisis as having been engineered to benefit a few at an enormous cost to the rest of us not least the dead and ill.

There were two extreme responses to the outbreak. One allowed the virus to spread and gain in doubling time, ensuring massive lockdowns. The other acted to swiftly end the virus’ ability to spread.

The UK, USA and Swedish “herd immunity” policies put off testing, pouring gasoline on the pandemic fire. This needlessly cost(s) lives and hospitalizations and also ensured that a crisis would develop such that lockdowns would eventually ensue. China, after what appears to be a localized political suppression of the news of the virus, attacked it with warfare and killed its curve.

A March 13 interview with a Czech research scientist in molecular-biology virology, Dr. Sona Pekova, shines an unfavorable light on the CDC’s PCR antigen test. She describes how it was not optimally designed for pandemic use, and so she and her lab modified it to make it simpler, cheaper, faster, more accurate and more useful, indicating viral loads. Pekova, who is hands-on experienced in viral genome alterations, describes why she thinks this viral genome had to come out of a lab. See transcript below.

Apparently the CDC, late to act, designed a test that is difficult to use in pandemic situation. Further, when the test was finally was released ( 2 months late), it didn’t work properly due to contaminated reagents, delaying testing by several more weeks. After so many delays and the unsuitability of the test to pandemic needs, the go-ahead was finally given to regional US labs to design their own tests. Meanwhile, a reliable German test protocol had been available to use in January and ignored. Seems clear the CDC was not in a hurry to stop the pandemic.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Czech research virologist Dr Sona Pekova interview, 13.3.2020

1:29 Dr.Sona Pekova talks about the CDC test directions which her lab initially followed but found “at the first, second and next glance it looked cumbersome and complex and required a lot — it was expensive, it had significant technological demands, or it required relatively technologically demanding equipment, and when we need to test a lot of people during an epidemic, that’s not the way to do it.
“So we had two authentic isolates of the virus from humans, we sequenced it and read the genetic information of the virus in some areas we considered significant and we found that the virus was much easier to detect, using the same technology as suggested by the CDC — we didn’t abandon it, but it’s much easier to detect by targeting another region of its genome, not here (points at genome) toward that terminal part of the genome, but somewhere at the very beginning. There it has sequences that uniquely identify it where it can’t be confused with another virus or another coronavirus and in fact it can be done with one reaction per patient. So instead of three, we only need to do one, saving chemicals, time, cost, instrument positions and no complicated equipment is needed as in multiplex testing. So this is a way to test a large amount of samples — it has to be fast, simple, reliable and quantitative to tell us how much of the virus there is and it can’t be beyond the lab’s capacities. Because after we publish our assay, the test that we provide free of charge to everyone who is interested … many laboratories from around the world have contacted us and requested the test from us. So if nobody had any trouble with the original test (CDC test), this new test probably wouldn’t be in such high demand.”

15:16 — 17:58 Why Dr. Pekova thinks this virus is “atypical”

“Viruses mutate regions that encode structural proteins, that is proteins that form the body of the virus. These are proteins that determine how the virus will attack the (host) cell, how it will penetrate it; simply put, protein-protein interaction. And here we discovered that the virus naturally has some heterogeneity in its body, the structural genes, but what sets it apart is the region of the virus which is the control room of the virus, the regulatory region of the virus where replication of the virus is triggered, where the transcription and production of protein is triggered so it’s the ‘control room’.

“In this virus it looks as if someone entered the control room; the control room allows viruses to recognize each other — these sequences are identical within the group. Well, in this virus the control room looks as if someone entered it, opened the closets, threw everything out of them, flipped chairs — and if it were a natural variant one could hardly imagine that such extensive mutations — insertions, deletions, various single-nucleotide mutations — could happen accidentally and the virus wouldn’t die during this process.

“Because the virus doesn’t let anything touch the control room, and that means, ‘I am in control here and you can mutate these genes for these proteins through which I will enter cells or recognize another host but don’t come here where I am in command.’ This has to be preserved without mutations if possible. And if there is a mutation, it must be mutation that makes the virus stronger. Any mutation that makes it weaker is an evolutionary disadvantage and would not survive. . . I don’t know if the mutation is artificial but it’s so … (interviewer interjects, suggesting the word, atypical)…yes, “atypical” at the very least…”

at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmL7okhbVzU&feature=youtu.be

Posted by: susan | Apr 13 2020 5:46 utc | 117

also noticed that off-guardian has gone full retard on the issue. i get not loving the reaction to the virus but they seem to have the annoying and widespread binary "if you believe a word about it you're part of the NWO" view. very alex jonesian. still not as moronic as the guys at "anti-empire" (formerly "checkpoint asia"). apparently if you want to slow the spread of the virus you're gay and/or a "soy boy" (makes sense since a lot of scum right types gravitate toward the paleo and keto "diets"). so...whatever level is past "full retard" for them.

Posted by: the pair | Apr 12 2020 18:49 utc | 36

Liar, liar pants on fire.

Methionine and choline regulate the metabolic phenotype of a ketogenic diet

The effects of dietary methionine restriction on the function and metabolic reprogramming in the liver and brain-Implications for longevity

the pair clearly is a dimwit and, thus, a strong contender for this Year's Darwin award.

Posted by: Avid Lurker | Apr 13 2020 6:03 utc | 118

I have never ever heard of 'right wing types' 'gravitating' toward ketogenic diets. As far as I have learned, it is nearly impossible to remain in the ketogenic metabolic state, which largely requires living on energy from coconut oil. People do benefit greatly from living on the 'fringe' of ketogenic with olive and even canola oil, etc. It has absolutely nothing to do with politics. (Really!)

Posted by: blues | Apr 13 2020 6:22 utc | 119

@A User | Apr 13 2020 2:29 utc | 99

I wouldn't worry about poor little teddy boy's weak-arsed attempt to bustle about here too much. I reckon that judging by his posts the majority of which are negative towards the personas of other commenters, which is a sure sign of a type who resides under a bridge.

You just described yourself. Somehow the primitive hatred towards reasonable people with genuine concerns is popping up again and again here. I am asking myself why this is happening.

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 13 2020 6:26 utc | 120

@J Swift | Apr 13 2020 2:38 utc | 100

NASA analysis of Boeing very unflattering

Thanks for that link! That was very unflattering indeed. It seems NASA will not consider Boeing for human space flight. The comments to that article says everything.

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 13 2020 6:56 utc | 121

I have never ever heard of 'right wing types' 'gravitating' toward ketogenic diets. As far as I have learned, it is nearly impossible to remain in the ketogenic metabolic state, which largely requires living on energy from coconut oil. People do benefit greatly from living on the 'fringe' of ketogenic with olive and even canola oil, etc. It has absolutely nothing to do with politics. (Really!)

Posted by: blues | Apr 13 2020 6:22 utc | 121

Methionine-Restricted Diet... Who needs it?

Production of convulsions in mice by the combination of methionine and homocysteine.

Dr. Benjamin Bikman - 'Insulin vs. Glucagon: The relevance of dietary protein'.

Hello blues,

A careful reading of the literature partly supports:

As far as I have learned, it is nearly impossible to remain in the ketogenic metabolic state.

The link to the Bikman video underscores why the low-carbohydrate part of ketogenic diets is still crucial ... in my professional opinion. Aside from adequate dietary fiber intake, high carbohydrate / sugar diets can pose a serious health risk. John Yudkin published a book titled "Pure, White, and Deadly," which scientifically refuted the tripe we were fed by Ancel Keys.

The current link to a Brenda Davis report emphasizes aspects of low methionine diets. Basically quasi-vegetarian diets that minimize animal proteins in order to lower methionine intake. (Omit adequate omega-3 nutriture at your own peril !!) I first located the article by Pissios et al. in January of 2018. But it was only yesterday that I finally grasped its paramount importance.

Incidentally, FWIW, helping a dear friend whose son has severe epilepsy got this ball rolling for me 3 years ago.

Posted by: Avid Lurker | Apr 13 2020 7:03 utc | 122

uncle tungsten @106

"Who keeps these daily stats and is there a link?"

Interestingly detailed data seems to be hard to come by.

On the Victorian state government Dept. of Health & Human Services website
Coronavirus Covid-19 in Victoria

The data provided here is the bare minimum - 5 pages of fluff.
No breakdown of ages of deceased.
No indication of severity, pre-existing conditions etc.
These are all people who have tested positive but no indication of whether they were hospitalized or sent to isolation.

Everything is on computer & all the hospitals are linked. The IT system is somewhat archaic but from personal experience it does work. All patient details are entered on admission & updated by medical staff as treatment progresses.
In this emergency situation I would not imagine that the lag time for the data to be updated would be more than a day or two.

It begs the question why is the more comprehensive data not being released? It has got to be there.
Somebody has decided we don't need to know.

There might be more data somewhere else, but it's certainly not jumping out (my search engine skills are not the best).


Disclaimer: The corona virus exists. The corona virus is extremely virulent & more severe than the 'flu'. The corona virus kills indiscriminately, mainly the elderly but not confined to the elderly. There are more things we don't know about the corona virus than the things we know.


Posted by: ted01 | Apr 13 2020 7:05 utc | 123

It’s getting a little heated in here.
So much so, that even the occasional drive by troll is turned off.
Jeez, people. Let’s raise the bar a bit and keep it civil.
There’s much to be read and learned here, typically.

Posted by: Cadence calls | Apr 13 2020 7:28 utc | 125

Posted by: Jen | Apr 13 2020 2:54 utc | 104
".... we Westerners do not know or understand enough about how China's political and medical institutions operate at all, let alone know how these institutions worked to enforce lockdowns in Wuhan and Hubei province and had the trust and support of the general public in that city and its province."

Well said concerning China / Chinese.

Yet many in the West, even as they grumble about the inanities of their own governments, nevertheless unconsciously believe that the rest of the world must run their governance systems exactly like theirs, which might partly explain why they continue to mistake the Chinese people's personal and societal discipline as the subservience of an oppressed people.

Posted by: kiwiklown | Apr 13 2020 7:28 utc | 126

Blues: f#ckoff if u have no substance. Especially in context where my post is the only one here that is in contact with the real issues for this real world and the life-death catastrophe the working class and poor are going through.

Posted by: fairleft | Apr 13 2020 7:40 utc | 127

Obviously both> "A Viral Pandemic or A Crime Scene?" (unz) Wally, whose most recent bio class was about 1964, has often said that the affair CV
has all the elements of a confidence operation...one with a real-not-a-hoax ringer, and in which the marks blames hizzelf.

At Leadville Co horses can live, but cannot work...not 'nuf air pressure and the lungs fill with fluids and bacteria ah..."deploy".

The unz article seems salient.

Posted by: Walter | Apr 13 2020 7:46 utc | 128

Peter AU1 @126

Thanks - teasing out a bit more detail.

For Victoria - 70000 tested, 1281 confirmed with 40 hospitalized (14 in ICU).

Can we assume the 70000 tested were high risk/presented to Emergency Dept/showing signs of infection.
It doesn't really help us determine how many infected people there are out in the community - the asymptomatic & minimal symptom cases that just disappear but probably unwittingly pass it on.

What is needed is a quick (results in a couple of minutes) test that can be administered by minimally trained personnel on a mass scale.
Condition of entry to shopping centres & supermarkets. Roadside testing, workplace testing etc.

The problem is what to do with the mother of 3 testing positive at the local supermarket.

Maybe train up the backpackers that come door to door hawking solar panels & mobile phone plans - test on your doorstep.

Disclaimer: The corona virus exists. The corona virus is extremely virulent & more severe than the 'flu'. The corona virus kills indiscriminately, mainly the elderly but not confined to the elderly. There are more things we don't know about the corona virus than the things we know.

Posted by: ted01 | Apr 13 2020 7:49 utc | 129

This from pdf titled 'Information for Clinicians: Frequently Asked Questions'
www.health.gov.au/

What is the case fatality rate and overall severity of the disease?
A large study conducted in China on 44,672 confirmed cases has informed much of what we
currently know with regards to case fatality and overall severity of the disease. However, at the
moment there is not enough data on cases outside mainland China to make a meaningful
comparison.
In China, the case fatality rate (CFR) is reported to be 2.3%, however this is much higher in Hubei
Province (2.9%) than in all other provinces (0.4%). The CFR is likely to be much lower than
reported, due to a proportion of mild cases going underreported in the community. CFR estimates
for regions outside mainland China are generally low; however, the clinical outcomes for the
majority of these cases is still unknown. Based on current estimates, it is estimated that
approximately 1% of COVID-19 patients will die. We will be able to better estimate this proportion
once serological studies are performed.
Likewise, we continue to gather information on the overall severity of the disease. Based on
current data, it is estimated that approximately 80% of cases will have a mild illness,
approximately 20% will require hospitalisation, and approximately 3-5% will require ICU
admission. Cases classified as critical (respiratory failure, septic shock, and/or multi-organ failure)
have a CFR of approximately 50%. Patients in this circumstance have tended to be elderly with
comorbidities.
................

The stats at my link @126 show between 1 and 2% mortality rate. Currently 1% of total cases and 2% of recovered cases.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 13 2020 7:57 utc | 130

ted01

I believe all is required is for positive cases to be quarantined. It would be a different story if infection was out of control as it was in China. China now has very few or no domestic transmission. Australia should never have had lock down, rather all incoming travelers should have been quarantined until they were cleared of coronavirus.
That Australia has such a high number of tests to confirmed cases, I believe means there are very few unaccounted for cases.

Posted by: Peter AU | Apr 13 2020 8:09 utc | 131

ted01 | Apr 13 2020 7:49 utc | 131

What is needed is a quick (results in a couple of minutes) test that can be administered by minimally trained personnel on a mass scale.
Condition of entry to shopping centres & supermarkets. Roadside testing, workplace testing etc.

Absolutely not!! This is 1984 stuff on steroids, the police state come true. This will be totally abused! There is no scientific or even legal grounds for such tyrrany. I know where this leads. During WWII members of my family were arrested by the Gestapo and put in prison camps.

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 13 2020 8:10 utc | 132

Link @132 not working. Copy and paste to browser.

https://www.health.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2020/03/coronavirus-covid-19-information-for-clinicians.docx

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 13 2020 8:23 utc | 133

Norwegian #122

...the primitive hatred towards reasonable people with genuine concerns is popping up again and again here. I am asking myself why this is happening.

The occasional turd attracts a lot of flies.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 13 2020 8:37 utc | 134

Posted by: JC | Apr 13 2020 3:48 utc | 108
".... but what stopping the US and other nations ignored WHO director general
Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus repeated warning prepare for the pandemic..."

Perhaps powerful people wanted the pandemic to grow worse to hide their OTHER HAND as they grab trillions of dollars?

While we look at the covid virus, they are looking at how to eat other people's lunches !!!

Perhaps we are watching the WRONG HAND?!!?!??!!

Posted by: kiwiklown | Apr 13 2020 8:41 utc | 135

Peter AU1 @126

Thanks for the stats link.

It appears the hospital load is tolerable.


Peter AU1 #132

The stats at my link @126 show between 1 and 2% mortality rate. Currently 1% of total cases and 2% of recovered cases.

Well, I challenge that leap to surmise a death rate on that chart. There is no knowing the populace wide infection rate so the death rate is only an expression of the 'total tested +ve' and the deaths. If its the PCR test then its a lot iffy as I understand the reliability issue. If 70 to 85 % of the populace is unaffected and certainly untested then the death rate is very low.


The clearer foundation to forecast on is given in a suite of sample populations that are all accurately tested (including evidence of antibodies for those with old contact and asymptomatic). That way we can consider an infection profile of unaffected, mild symptoms, illness, acute illness, death.

Evidence world wide shows death expectations for the 'do nothing' and 'go hard close down' approaches but that is an aside to this issue.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 13 2020 9:08 utc | 136

uncle tungsten Anywhere, any country a number of clinical signs and symptoms are used in any diagnosis.

It is the claim of those that are trying to prove the pandemic a hoax use the 'unknown multitudes'.
Countries actively tracking and testing will have very few of these.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 13 2020 9:14 utc | 137

Posted by: Walter | Apr 13 2020 7:46 utc | 130
Obviously both> "A Viral Pandemic or A Crime Scene?"

I remember you said that the virus is real, as is the scam.

So many of us are obsessing over viral minutae, and so few are looking at the magician's OTHER HAND, the one grabbing trillions of dollars.

Wdn't surprise me when Trump soon says, ferggit about the scientists, I hear the people's suffering, let's reopen the economy, Make America Grate Again !!!

Posted by: kiwiklown | Apr 13 2020 9:16 utc | 138

Peter "I believe all is required is for positive cases to be quarantined. It would be a different story if infection was out of control as it was in China. China now has very few or no domestic transmission. Australia should never have had lock down, rather all incoming travelers should have been quarantined until they were cleared of coronavirus.
That Australia has such a high number of tests to confirmed cases, I believe means there are very few unaccounted for cases."

I agree entirely.

For the French stats, one has to realize that hospital docs work there "blind" because the French have no centralized "medical file". Their GP has one, their psy who give them poisonous substances has its own, the hospital where they see a specialist has another, the hospital where they were sent for surgery yet another, etc. So if ppl died from chloroquine or antibiotic, it is simply because they have no clue about the other medications these guys have been taking or if they have a pre-condition (especially if you bring them only when they can hardly breathe and speak).

Posted by: Mina | Apr 13 2020 9:18 utc | 139

Norwegian @134

We have a police state now - I suppose it is just a matter of degree.
I have been given a letter from work to show the police indicating that I work for an essential service - it's pretty fucked up & Orwellian.

I agree with what you are saying - even now there have been multiple instances of police over stepping their powers & fining people on a whim. Poorly designed, poorly communicated & poorly implemented.

One thing I do know is that this lock down is not sustainable - another solution needs to be found.

We are left with Herd immunity with protection for the elderly.

I can see cracks appearing in this lock down, especially among the 20 - 30's just from my limited contact at work. Not sure how the unemployed are handling it.

Posted by: ted01 | Apr 13 2020 9:26 utc | 140

Thank you whoever posted this website!
http://www.defenddemocracy.press/
It looks like Erdo got a nice piece of cake and respectability when he went to Brussels a month ago.
http://www.defenddemocracy.press/unbelievable-prague-executing-turkeys-orders/

Posted by: Mina | Apr 13 2020 9:33 utc | 141

Norwegian #134

your response to tedo1 #131 who advocates wide mandatory testing and access prohibitions on the +ves.

Absolutely not!! This is 1984 stuff on steroids, the police state come true. This will be totally abused! There is no scientific or even legal grounds for such tyranny. I know where this leads. During WWII members of my family were arrested by the Gestapo and put in prison camps.

Thank you for that blast of sane fresh air. At this stage in most countries suppression of the virus is impossible. Mitigation of its spread is perhaps achievable if there is intensive masking in play.

Some nations are still giving ambiguous or negative advice on masking so their infection rate will proceed (or rampage) through the population over time and their medical support function may or, more likely not, be able to cope.

tdo1 if you are fearful, make a mask, wear some gloves even, and sanitize hands regularly. Avoid supermarkets! Testing is of minimal use at this stage - it is here, and will proceed as sure as your air reaches my lungs.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 13 2020 9:36 utc | 142

ted01: it is already 'herd immunity' for the so-called essential workers who take the public transportation in big cities.
Why aren't they paid double? or exempted of taxes for this year? why isn't it even discussed?
In fact, it is discussed by one guy in his kitchen (check Allo Ruffin on Youtube), he is an MP too but his party will never make it, especially now that the +65 are in a complete panic state and the -65 in sideration after a month of house arrest plus intensive propaganda; to illustrate the abysmal degree of the prop', this article yesterday: "Is it safe to put my clothes to dry on a line outside in the garden?" with sub-title: "it would be dangerous only if an infected person came less than a meter from it".......
http://www.leparisien.fr/societe/coronavirus-puis-je-mettre-mon-linge-a-secher-dehors-12-04-2020-8298270.php

Posted by: Mina | Apr 13 2020 9:39 utc | 143

I strongly suspect Putin sent a message of sympathy to Boris Johnson in order to provoke a cytokine storm.

Posted by: Leuk | Apr 13 2020 9:49 utc | 144

Peter AU1 #139

It is the claim of those that are trying to prove the pandemic a hoax use the 'unknown multitudes'. Countries actively tracking and testing will have very few of these.

I suspect you are reading me incorrectly. I know it is real and I have no interest in crying 'hoax'. There may be hiests economically and scaremongering policy decisions going on daily but the virus reality remains the same. I seek to compare things on an equal statistical level. That is why I seek to know the whole of population picture.

I am interested in its progress and relativity to other diseases and our epidemiological responses to same.

I am also particularly interested in a sample set of antibody tests in entirely model populace. I suspect it has been among us for longer than we can pin a date on it and that it mutates erratically as it progresses. Hence my interest in antibody frequency in both asymptomatic people and those with previous illness months ago.

As you have seen in my posts here, I also suspect it to be a manipulated virus. The 2010 paper linked in the Professor Francis Boyle interview shows that Wuhan lab, the CSIRO in Australia and university in USA performed some 'gain of function' research and experimentation in 2010. Hence my interest in a prosecution before the ICC.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 13 2020 9:55 utc | 145

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 12 2020 17:04 utc | 17

I fully agree with your Godfrey Roberts quote: "In short, our media are interpreting yet another Chinese policy in Western terms. China is nothing like us. Nothing. It’s a different civilization and it does things differently."

It isn’t just the differences in governance systems. It is also the quality of leadership. Somebody here said that the CCP leadership is like a meritocratic learning machine.

Also, China views all humanity as inter-related: there can be no peace if your neighbour is not at peace. That is where win-win comes from. The West operates under a win-lose, black-white, yes-no worldview. People are to be used, consumed, disposed. That is where eating other people's lunches, keeping the oil, wall street versus main street comes from.

But again, many in the West still think that the little that they do know represents the sum of all that is to know.

Posted by: kiwiklown | Apr 13 2020 10:01 utc | 146

- It's a REAL pity Boris "Blow-Job" Johnson didn't die. It would have shown what kind of infantile government the UK has.
- In the mean time FOX News/FAUX news is still downplaying the threat of COVID-19 and worshipping "Our Dear Leader" (a.k.a. Donald Trump).

http://www.newshounds.us/sarah_sanders_alternate_pandemic_trump_what_a_leader_looks_like_041220

Posted by: Willy2 | Apr 13 2020 10:12 utc | 147

There is a fine line to be trod here, if no action is taken then the pandemic will kill more people, so trust in authorities is required up to a point, beyond that we must ensure the power hungry pricks do not overstep. That point will vary hugely between different nation states and requires reasonable knowledge of the actual players.

eg I am very wary of the Aotearoa administration who have an election later this year & are trying to make up ground lost when they followed through on zero of the undertakings to the electorate which they made before the last general election.

Despite promises to the contrary too many people including working people are homeless, they backed off introducing any sort of capital gains tax on those who have been profiting from a property market that has gone insane with houses now costing more than seven times average annual household income.

This kiwi government is trying the old pol trick of buying their way outta trouble with a last minute quick fix, in this case the corona-virus bizzo and underpinning that with glossy magazine hagiographies on the 'wonderful woman PM' ("remember the mosques blah blah") who unfortunately for the citizens seems to struggle to think her way outta a wet paper bag when it comes to policy-making. The exact opposite of the woman she likes to be compared with former Aotearoa PM Helen Clark.

Press conferences are the standard one politician surrounded by a gaggle of senior public servants which appears to be de rigeur for pandemic meet the presses across this planet.

I no longer know many players in Wellington so it is difficult to know whether these bureaucrats have been independently appointed, old school public servant style, or if they are political appointees. Because it is Health rather than treasury, finance or housing, it is probable that they are the former.
No one bothers to finesse health since the Clark Labour Government created regional health boards in the noughties, they were instituted to cop the flak for things such as poor cancer outcomes due to budget cuts. They pay good salaries and since most of the decisions are a function of how much money central government hands out, it is a great gig if you do not care about being party to such a rort.

The heavy lifting had been done so that the Department of Health (up until covid 19), wasn't a problematic portfolio for politicians.
This is why the bulk of the population appears to be so accepting of the current situation I reckon, that and the fact media 'consolidation' has reduced the players to two. They are a government owned TV station and a business round-table cartel owned newspaper. Oddly (well for the TV station) both of which have a real set on against the current government. People who imagine this means everything coronavirus is kosher,are I reckon, fooling themselves as it is possible the media are merely holding off on the dirty linen until the election is a bit nearer and the story will have more impact.

Contact tracing and testing has been going full on here, as it has done since early March. This morning there was a minor furore over the fact that the details of one 'cluster' had not been disclosed, which was pretty unusual to say the least, as with all other clusters sufficient information had been released to inform any affected citizens they may have been exposed.

My first thought was perhaps that cluster was from a small but easily identifiable ethnic group.
This was not a gang of pols likely to put their credibility on the line over a handful of Aotearoa elite types, but a helth bureaucrat could have lent on the, rith that "But Minister, this is in the public interest" line. If that were the case the secret was gonna have a short lifespan.

Sure enough the curtain twitchers and sheet-sniffers had a field day about this on social media. To the point where the cluster was outed. A Politician does what a politician does, eh.

It transpired that this cluster was comprised of 5 profoundly cognitive disabled people who, as health planners are wont to do with those who cannot always ensure that their rights are protected, had been stuffed together in a ghetto for people with cognitive disorders. Apparently a 'carer' had infected them all.

I hafta say I'm damn pleased we no longer live in Auckland because people such as my son will cop it from the usual pea brains for a while, because of this. Down here he is fairly well known and gets on well with just about everyone, still I'm gonna accompany him on his daily walk for a while, we had been exercising seperately on the days when I have not much voluntary work to take me out of the house.
I can understand why an attempt was made to keep that situation quiet, but it was handled badly, so poorly it causes one to wonder if the secrecy was really about those responsible protecting their arses.

Could be, talking to a few compatriots this a.m. it appears that there is an 'old persons home' scandal brewing.
No different to anywhere else most ways,these privately-owned for profit facilities are always short-staffed, poorly paid and of course, they were not supplied with personal protection whatever its called. The managers count the numbers of peas in some grandmother's lunch portion so they aren't going to fork out for masks, gloves and gowns.
It is alleged that the deaths of these senior citizens has been concealed because the rest homes have providing hospice care to those who became infected on their premises. The old ladies & gents are not dying in hospital, so consequently are left out of the covid 19 mortality count.
Eventually some son or daughter will want to know what happened, so I suppose the plan is to drip feed these deaths into the stats when the mortality rate properly kicks off.
If that doesn't happen, if the virus elimination strategy does somehow succeed , I guess the geriatric deaths will be pushed out fast while everyone is still patting themselves on the back for 'showing the world', "see lil old new zild does it" & all the other parochialisms.

There are similarities across various nations but there are differences too - IMO it is foolish to tar all with the same brush. I don't trust the politicians here at all, they do need to be closely watched by people wo are aware of the nuances, but equally any community with so few degrees of seperation between all the citizens does make really gross activity close to impossible.

During WW2 that awful churchill pol had all the german born jews freshly arrived in england, interned, many of them felt that they had hopped out of the frying pan into the fire, but it transpired it was really about guarding against espionage & sabotage.

Sure, quislings in Norway locked up all sorts at the same time, but it isn't a useful exercise to judge everywhere by what the norwegian nazis got up to, back then or now.
Especially when the types making these parallels lack sufficient knowledge of the society he/she is commenting on.

Posted by: A User | Apr 13 2020 10:15 utc | 148

Peter AU1 | Apr 13 2020 7:57 utc | 132

Extremely important to distinguish "case fatality rate" from mortality rate, which you haven't done. Case fatality rate in China was impacted, early on greatly, by the lack of preparedness in China for the novel coronavirus.

Posted by: faiirleft | Apr 13 2020 10:17 utc | 149

ted01 #142

I can see cracks appearing in this lock down, especially among the 20 - 30's just from my limited contact at work. Not sure how the unemployed are handling it.

That is the point of much opposition to totalitarian solutions (like mandatory tests and prohibition). There are always cracks in the lock down. Ask Mohamed bin Salman, any Palestinian, Hitler, Trump: there will always be leaks, leakers and whistleblowers and downright disobedient creatures more interested in narcissistic pursuits than altruistic monastic chastity. Such are people and no amount of testing, sheet sniffing, orifice probing will alter that or give you the result you may seek.

Virus have a habit of lying in wait or hovering in an atomised droplet, a kiss, a gentle caress, a voluminous sneeze.

Cheeky little f#ckers and just when you think you have them sorted, they mutate.

Or someone in a lab mutates them for you. I suggest we shut down the latter and close all the military labs for the next decade and change our course. I suggest there be NO research into gain of function under any guise. That will be easy. We need to repair an ethics breach that has resulted in mass slaughter and mass fear.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 13 2020 10:19 utc | 150

uncle tungsten

ICC is only for hanging darkies.

https://www.casebriefs.com/blog/law/international-law/international-law-keyed-to-damrosche/chapter-2/military-and-paramilitary-activities-in-and-against-nicaragua-nicaragua-v-united-states/

The United States (D) challenged the jurisdiction of the I.C.J when it was held responsible for illegal military and paramilitary activities in and against Nicaragua (P) in the suit the plaintiff brought against the defendant in 1984. Though a declaration accepting the mandatory jurisdiction of the Court was deposited by the United States (D) in a 1946, it tried to justify the declaration in a 1984 notification by referring to the 1946 declaration and stating in part that the declaration “shall not apply to disputes with any Central American State….”

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 13 2020 10:20 utc | 151

Ted01
I largely agree with his comments. We have two main camps, MoA in one that this pandemic is deadly, we need isolate till there is a vaccine. OG in the other that the whole thing is over-exaggerated with an agenda.

I thought the Kennedy article on Gates and his vaccine history might hit a nerve, but no, vaccines remain our only savior.

We will see as this plays out who was right.

Posted by: Rancid | Apr 13 2020 10:50 utc | 152

I ran onto this when looking up gain of function research.

"On Dec 19, 2017, the US National Institutes of Health (NIH) announced that they would resume funding gain-of-function experiments involving influenza, Middle East respiratory syndrome coronavirus, and severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus. A moratorium had been in place since October, 2014."
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(18)30006-9/fulltext

"Federal officials today released a plan to help U.S. agencies decide whether to fund controversial studies that make viruses more dangerous. The guidance may finally bring an end to a moratorium that has kept a handful of experiments funded by the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) on hold for more than 2 years."
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/01/white-house-announces-review-process-risky-virus-studies

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 13 2020 11:13 utc | 153

@A User | Apr 13 2020 10:15 utc | 150

Sure, quislings in Norway locked up all sorts at the same time, but it isn't a useful exercise to judge everywhere by what the norwegian nazis got up to, back then or now.
Especially when the types making these parallels lack sufficient knowledge of the society he/she is commenting on.

You, however, have the guts to comment on what happened here in WWII and you are wrong. It was the German Gestapo, not the local Quslings.
Today, the Quisling-in-chief Stoltenberg is dancing to the tune of the maniacs in the US. History repeats itself.

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 13 2020 11:47 utc | 154

uncle tungsten @144

"...Testing is of minimal use at this stage..."

I am not sure what you mean by this - due to my limited understanding of how pandemics work - at what stage does mass testing become important (if ever)?

Is the solution just to let it run it's course? Open everything up, everybody back to work, sensible public distancing, masking, protection for the elderly & medically compromised.

With no vaccine in sight the only option is everybody back to work.

What is the true situation regarding herd immunity in Sweden? Only extreme negativity from corporate media.

Mina - "it is already 'herd immunity'..." - I agree totally, my workplace is hot (some areas 45deg plus) & noisy which requires shouting at close range to communicate, confined spaces etc. & zero social distancing out on the factory floor. Ironically the company decided it was not 'safe' for maintenance to share the common lunchroom, so we now have our own private room.

The upside is my comment on mass testing seems to have stimulated a much more polite conversation.

Posted by: ted01 | Apr 13 2020 12:05 utc | 155

James @ 81 and onwards:
Ted01 has a point. He is right about me at least: I don't believe what WaPo and the NYT were printing about US involvement in Iran, Syria and Venezuela and what those nations' governments were supposedly doing or not doing to their populations. On the other hand, I read what MoA says about COVID-19 and then I read what Off-G, Swiss Propaganda Research, The Blogmire and various other websites and blogs have to say about COVID-19, I try to discern what their aims and reasons are for saying what they say, and then I come to my own judgement.
Posted by: Jen | Apr 13 2020 2:54 utc | 104

Thanks so much for that post Jen, I agree with it entirely. Especially the last paragraph which is worth repeating:

The thing is that Off-G and others of similar opinion have just as valid reason to voice concern about the actions that govts across the world have taken to cimbat COVID-19 which have the effect of destroying working class jobs and putting millions into poverty while preserving middle and upper class jobs which can be done online and remotely. For MoA to criticise Off-G in the way it has looks like a cheap shot.

Posted by: BM | Apr 13 2020 12:07 utc | 156

@uncle tungsten | Apr 13 2020 9:36 utc | 144

Thank you for that blast of sane fresh air. At this stage in most countries suppression of the virus is impossible. Mitigation of its spread is perhaps achievable if there is intensive masking in play.

Thank you for responding positively, it is helpful in a very dark time.

Now let me tell you that I know personally one of the very first people in this country that caught the virus from traveling to Italy/Austria. I worked with that person in the same room over several days. One evening (March 11) I was called up by my boss and told to stay at home the next day. I also received a call from a nurse since I had been in contact with said person. I stayed at home for more than two weeks and had zero symptoms. The whole office building was closed down and parts of it sanitized. Lots of people had been in contact with this person in crowded, open offices. There were no other cases. This company has offices in many countries with thousands of employees, but the last I heard was only 5 were diagnosed world wide. The person I know was working from home after 2 weeks.

My son has lost his job with COVID-19 as the reason given, I hope I will not be laid off for the same reason (it has been discussed).

My message is that the consequences of the actions taken by governments and companies far exceeds the consequences of the virus. Civil liberties are blown to pieces and people are losing their jobs. I suspect more people world wide will die from such consequences than from the virus.

Although the virus is real (and quite possibly man made) and to be taken seriously, one must not completely lose perspective. During the Spanish flu something like 50 to 100 million people died. Right now the corresponding COVID-19 number is 115 thousand, a thousand times less than the Spanish flu. Of course the numbers might increase, but they will never come close to 100 million.

The only way this becomes a real disaster is if society is deliberately destroyed.

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 13 2020 12:11 utc | 157

ted
Belgium today says that after they did controls in working places they found 85% were not respecting the distances
https://tinyurl.com/ugb5a8e

I would be curious to know the stats if we remove the nursing homes and the people who died in hospitals but have been in hospital before, let's say for more than 10 days due to surgery or else. It will be huge...

Posted by: Mina | Apr 13 2020 12:17 utc | 158

re : Norwegian | Apr 13 2020 11:47 utc | 156
I won't attempt further debate after this with such a closed concrete mind, but I did find it interesting you took exception to the reference to Norway's Quisling. Everything I have learned about Norwegian involvement with nazis is somewhat limited,but I do know many of the nazi inspired 'round ups' were actually committed by civilian norwegian police or the Quisling regime's police, the STAPO rather than the gestapo. What is the kicker for me is how was it that the norwegian courts aquitted the norwegian ringleader of the jewish round-up, oslo police chief Knut Rød in the 1960's. That and the fact the Norwegian nazis, the Nasjonal Samling, were responsible for gathering the list of alleged jews suggest that putting the blame for oppression in WW2 Norway entirely onto German fascists is a problematic to say the least.
Upthread you were content to suggest that your parents experience in ww2 Norway qualified you to pass judgement on the Australians who were likely to round up the citizens in similar fashion, so calling me out for accurately describing norwegian collaboration with nazis , something you want to ignore, is a tad hypocritical to say the least.

Posted by: A User | Apr 13 2020 12:22 utc | 159

Norwegian @ 156

Think your response was a bit sweeping. Whilst the Gestapo was indeed the main enforcement agency of the Reich, in Norway, as in all of occupied Europe, they tried to operate via local police forces. I suspect that the word Quisling generally refers to Norwegian collaborators rather than hard core local recruits of the Gestapo, of which there were many, or even members of Den Norske Legon of the Waffen-SS, few of either survived long post WW2.

What A User said in his first sentence is quite fair what with WW2 Nazis and Breivik more recently. Stoltenberg is just enjoying his rewards for being a good boy in Norway, obeying his benefactor.

Posted by: JohninMK | Apr 13 2020 12:29 utc | 160

From the bbc live
Germany now has more people who have recovered from coronavirus than active cases, officials say. Over the past 24 hours, there were 2,537 new positive tests, taking the total to 127,854. That's the fourth-biggest number in Europe, but just over 50% of those have recovered.

In Spain, 37% of the 166,831 people infected have recovered, in Italy 22% of 156,363, in France 21% of 133,670. In the UK 85,208 people have tested positive, but data on the recovery rate was not available.

Posted by: Mina | Apr 13 2020 12:30 utc | 161

From the bbc live (you would never hear people in such high positions critize the gov in France)
Criticism of the UK government's response to coronavirus is growing after one of its top scientific advisers said the country was likely to be among the worst affected in Europe.

The warning from Sir Jeremy Farrar came as UK hospital deaths passed 10,000 on Sunday.

Sue Hill, vice-president of the Royal College of Surgeons, said she believed UK deaths could rise to 30,000.

"Cabinet ministers are standing up every day, addressing us as if we’re on a war footing and giving Churchillian quotes when they could be doing a few simple things like getting more bits of plastic and paper [personal protective equipment for medical staff] on to wards,” Hill said.

Professor John Ashton, a former public health director, called on the government to be "completely honest", as the recorded number of deaths being put out is only those who have died in hospital, and does not include deaths in care homes and in the community.

"There's a lot of worry now on social media that we're not being given the full picture. People need to be treated like adults," he said.

Dozens of NHS workers are known to have died so far, with doctors who came out of retirement, as well as a disproportionate number of workers from black, Asian and ethnic minority backgrounds among those who have lost their lives.

The government faced serious criticism early on in the spread of the pandemic in the UK, after messages from officials led to confusion over the strategy being pursued, and the country was relatively slow to shut down non-essential businesses and public gatherings.

Posted by: Mina | Apr 13 2020 12:32 utc | 162

Vk@92

It only takes moments to search doses for chloroquine. Doses for malaria, doses for malaria prophylaxis, doses for COVID are all just a few keystrokes away. And yes, entire populations have used chloroquine for malaria for generations. Yes, billions. You are making something simple into something complex and you have to invent to get there.

Every master of the diamat ever encountered has been a fraud. No exceptions in my experience.

Posted by: oldhippie | Apr 13 2020 12:33 utc | 163

From the cnn live
About 26% of the confirmed Covid-19 cases in the Netherlands are healthcare workers, according to a CNN calculation of data from the Dutch National Institute for Public Health and the Environment. The country has recorded a total of 25,587 confirmed cases as of Sunday.

As of a few days, health care workers can also get tested outside the hospital if they have complaints. The first effects of this are visible in the reports,” the institute said.
The Public Health Institute added that the number of medical staff cases varied significantly by region, depending on the virus' spread “and local testing policy as of April 6.” As of Friday, 56% of the reported cases in Groningen Province were healthcare workers.


Posted by: Mina | Apr 13 2020 12:55 utc | 164

The virus is getting democratic in the US too
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/12/business/stanley-chera-coronavirus-trump/index.html

Posted by: Mina | Apr 13 2020 12:57 utc | 165

A User | Apr 13 2020 12:22 utc | 159 Primo Levy describes a similar relationship between the Italian cops and the German GESTAPO...first hand...as the Italian organization caught him a in a betrayal of his incipient partisan group.

It seems pretty clear that the Germans have been larded with guilt as pharmacos in a curated way for postwar capitalist corrupt purpose.

Many people are duped into believing the story. It's pretty fictionalized.

Posted by: Walter | Apr 13 2020 13:02 utc | 166

@A User | Apr 13 2020 12:22 utc | 159

I won't attempt further debate after this with such a closed concrete mind

And then you go on debating it. I have not and will never defend the quislings in this country, not during WWII and not the quislings of today, that looks like a strawman. The fact that the name Quisling is synonymous with traitor is for good reason. Vidkun Quisling was executed after the war.

All I am doing is to provide some actual factual reference we have experienced here, that I find relevant to the present madness. Much as you can use your country to interpret the present situation, I can use my experience here.

No, it wasn't my parents, you are assuming too much.

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 13 2020 13:03 utc | 167

Widely ignored for no sensible reason, a very recent Stanford University and Uppsala University statistical study analyzed as many Covid-19 hotspots with useful data as it could and found, very importantly in my opinon: "People <65 years old and not having any underlying predisposing conditions accounted for only 0.3%, 0.7%, and 1.8% of all COVID-19 deaths in Netherlands, Italy, and New York City."

From the above and other data, the study concluded: "People <65 years old have very small risks of COVID-19 death even in the hotbeds of the pandemic and deaths for people <65 years without underlying predisposing conditions are remarkably uncommon. Strategies focusing specifically on protecting high-risk elderly individuals should be considered in managing the pandemic."

Finally, the study's more general, and tentative, conclusions and recommendations follows:
"As the data from the first epidemic wave of COVID-19 mature, knowledge of relative and
absolute risks for different age groups and for people with different co-morbidities are instrumental for carefully choosing next steps. Aggressive measures such as lockdowns have been implemented in many countries. This is a fully justified 'better safe than sorry' approach in the absence of good data. However, long-term lockdowns may have major adverse consequences for health ... and society at large. ... Information from large scale testing and seroprevalence studies should soon give us a more clear picture about the true frequency of infections and thus more accurate assessments of the overall infection fatality rate. Data from Iceland suggest that almost all infections are either asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic and thus do not come to medical attention.These data also suggest that the infection fatality rate may be close to that of seasonal flu (0.1%) rather than much higher earlier estimates. If larger scale studies further document that the infection is very common and infection fatality rate is modest across the general population, the finding of very low risk in the vast majority of the general population has major implications for strategic next steps in managing the COVID-19 pandemic. Tailored measures that maintain social life and the economy functional to avoid potentially even deaths from socioeconomic disruption plus effective protection of select high-risk individuals may be a sensible option."

In any discussion of what needs to be done about Covid-19 it's essential to acknowledge that the important data has evolved and become better even since March. It's still not conclusive, but it's getting there so let's not harden our positions but be open to where better data may point us. Wise people change their minds when presented new and better data.

Link: Population-level COVID-19 mortality risk for non-elderly individuals overall and for non-elderly individuals without underlying diseases in pandemic centers (PDF)

Or go here: https://t.co/32FiNJo9Vc?amp=1

Posted by: fairleft | Apr 13 2020 13:26 utc | 168

@JohninMK | Apr 13 2020 12:29 utc | 160

What A User said in his first sentence is quite fair what with WW2 Nazis and Breivik more recently. Stoltenberg is just enjoying his rewards for being a good boy in Norway, obeying his benefactor.

I am ignoring your first paragraph.
Breivik? I could make a long thread about 22. July 2011, but I will not. I heard the explosion and I know the places. I have checked the details and sources. One thing is for sure, the truth of what happened that day has not been published. Do not take this as defending Breivik or nazism. On the contrary, I am saying that the freedom won in WWII by defeating the nazis is being severely eroded today due to the exploitation of the virus crisis, by governments spreading terror in the populations. I consider this exploitation as an act of terrorism, much like 911 and 22. July 2011.

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 13 2020 13:31 utc | 169

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 12 2020 16:11 utc |

"This is the second or third time in recent weeks where the post is duplicated."

Windows has taught us to double-click on desktop icons. When you unintentionally do this on the submit button, double-post may happen. Most sites employ some mechanism to prevent this, for example by disabling the button on the first click or explicitly checking the database for a double post. The MOA blog uses a very simple comment plugin that does not perform such checks.

Or perhaps it is your computer mouse. My wife had actually worn out hers with gaming. As a result the left button often registered double clicks when pressed once. Replacing the internal microswitch fixed the problem.
______________________

From your double-post:
"Why are people not more skeptical?"

Not sure, but I suppose people are born very naive and gullible. If they do not gain the life experience required to change the way they think, then they stay like that. And then there is cognitive dissonance. Thruth is not #1 for most people, feeling comfortable is. Make-believe is the tool to accomplish that.

Today, someone on other forum invalidated all my arguments because "Pharmaceutical corprations would never want to make money off the COVID-19 crises." I have yet to come to terms with the fact that people can be that naive.

Posted by: Joost | Apr 13 2020 13:50 utc | 170

Nathan Tankus has a five part series up explaining the recent actions of the Fed. Here is some information from part 1 (3/25)

https://nathantankus.substack.com/p/the-federal-reserves-coronavirus

3/15. It buys 500 billion dollars of treasury securities and 200 billion dollars of government guaranteed, mortgage backed securities. these purchases should be made “at a pace appropriate to support the smooth functioning of markets for Treasury securities and agency MBS” so they are clearly concerned that the financial crisis will cause these markets to malfunction and are trying to preempt that.

They also greatly expanded their own repurchase agreements i.e. lending secured by treasury securities to financial markets. These also inject settlement balances, albeit on a temporary basis.

they are clearly responding to the situation like it's a crisis by this point.

3/17. With the second announcement, we’re officially back in crisis. What marks financial crises the most is the alphabet soup of facilities announced by central banks. The first facility to return is the Commercial Paper Funding Facility (CPFF)

The announced facility also brings back one of the Federal Reserve’s favorite tricks- setting up a special purpose vehicle it lends to in order to enter into transactions it itself can’t enter.

It’s independent existence is a legal fiction.

The problem is that corporations have been having increasing trouble borrowing as financial markets freeze up as a result of coronavirus. This can affect their ability to make payroll and meet other important financial obligations. In other words, it's unacceptable to let the commercial paper market go down.

3/18. Today the Fed announced only one facility- the Money Market Mutual Fund Liquidity Facility (MMMFLF). Money Market Mutual Funds are professionally managed “investment pools” which buy a defined set of assets and sell “shares” to individuals and other entities so that they can invest relatively small amounts which are tied to the movement in prices of these much larger denomination assets. Massive amounts of assets are held by Money Market Mutual Funds and their deposit-like nature makes them an important liquid asset for many households and thus makes their portfolio choices important and investor redemption dangerous for market liquidity.

This is the first facility announced which is larger in scope and different from any facility created during the 2008 Great Financial Crisis

3/20 Last, but certainly not least, today the Federal Reserve announced that it was expanding the Money Market Mutual Fund Liquidity Facility to purchases of state and municipal debt with a maturity of 1 year or less. This is important because state and local governments are bearing the burden of increases in healthcare spending right at the time their tax revenues are falling off a cliff and municipal interest rates are rising. Still, the facility is of limited help because it is limited to maturities of 1 year or less. I hope to write more about the state and municipal debt situation next week.

I will be using part 3 of this series Friday to go through the Federal Reserve’s responses to the international liquidity situation.

This is already a lot but it is not large enough to deal with the enormity of the credit freeze Coronavirus has created- as their actions this week reflected. See you tomorrow to go through the even larger actions that have been announced this week.

Posted by: financial matters | Apr 13 2020 14:05 utc | 171

@: fairleft | Apr 13 2020 13:26 utc | 168

In the absence of any effective covid antiviral drugs or vaccines, a persons resistance or susceptibility to a covid infection probably boils down to two main factors:

1. how healthy your immune system is (ie. how rapidly it can sense and mount a reaction against invading virions)

2. the total size of the inocculum (viral load) you get hit with/exposed to. Even a healthy young immune system can be overwhelmed by large enough viral load.

Antecdotal story about 41 yr Broadway actor Nick Cordero who came down with covid and is now on ECMO.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-8211685/Nick-Corderos-wife-Amanda-Kloots-reveals-actor-resuscitated-critical-condition.html

I wonder what the outcome data are for younger healthcare workers and emergency responders who occupationally are in close contact with severely infective covid patients, and more likely to get hit with large loads of viral innoculi from pt's coughs/gagging etc while doing intubations/nasal swabbing procedures etc.

Posted by: gm | Apr 13 2020 14:07 utc | 172

>The upside is my comment on mass testing seems to have
>stimulated a much more polite conversation.
>Posted by: ted01 | Apr 13 2020 12:05 utc | 155

NPR, which I consider to be a major voice of the elite, is just today getting on the test, treat, trace bandwagon. They actually interviewed *two* "experts" promoting this strategy, and no one opposed. In addition Massachusetts nitwits have finally figured out they need to stand up a real contact tracing program and "plan" (as in, they haven't done it yet) to hire and train a thousand contract tracers. No word on when new contract tracers would actually start tracing. Next week? Next Year? No one asked why didn't they start this two months ago.

So maybe US Dear Leaders are finally moving to adopt an effective policy now that they have tried everything else and botched it completely. But it won't work until there are corona sanatoriums for virus-positive people who don't want to spread it to their families.

I understand why some people suspect the epidemic is intentional, although that is not my conclusion. After all, how can brain-dead nitwit leaders manage to create a policy that both destroys the economy *and* fails to stop the epidemic?

Meanwhile a pork processing plant that represents 5% of national capacity is shut down for at least two weeks.

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Apr 13 2020 14:11 utc | 173

Joost @170

If we assume that "The Market" is god-like and infallible, as so many capitalists do, then the proper response to crises is not to investigate ways to mitigate the harm from the crisis, but rather to discover some way to use the crisis to make a profit. Presumably, by doing this "The Market" will automatically assure that you are doing the right thing. The more profit you can arrange to make for yourself and any other investors, the more good you are doing for society. Maximizing one's profits results in maximizing the societal good that one is doing.

I find it naive for people in one moment to defend capitalism and in the next to make completely anti-capitalist assertions. "Pharmaceutical corporations would never want to make money off the COVID-19 crises."? How utterly and completely anti-capitalist a notion!

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 13 2020 14:13 utc | 174

@ fairleft | Apr 13 2020 7:40 utc | 127

I cannot blame you at all for telling me to "f#ckoff if u have no substance." In fact I agree with just about everything you say. Sorry if I caused you any dismay. Usually I pay attention to 'substance', but sometimes I get angsty when I see disturbing vague patterns developing. It's complicated. This "life-death catastrophe the working class and poor are going through" has really been happening for some time now. The virus and the resulting social responses obviously have dialed up that catastrophe quite a lot. We are in dangerous unknown territory now, and this always makes me more sensitive to vague patterns. Good luck to all.

Posted by: blues | Apr 13 2020 14:15 utc | 175

despite having studied these sociopaths since 2001, after three buildings came down from two airplane strikes, and despite becoming a bit of a prepper in 2008 after the financial crisis hit, it's still hard to wrap one's head around the speed in which our daily lives have been upended.

people who identify with the liberal wing of the war party don't even understand how they have become the nanny-state snitches for fascists. if you're skeptical of the data being used to destroy the economy and lock us down in a perpetual state of cortisol-producing stress you are plopped on the right-wing christian side of this false political dichotomy.

isn't it interesting how it's mostly Democrat governors quickly transforming into little dictators, determining what we should consider "non-essential", like seeds to grow your own food. yeah, really non-essential, that. and then there's Michigan Governor declaring you can't visit your family anymore.

if I can't get a goddamn break from my wonderful but absolutely stir-crazy children by taking them to grandma and grandpa's, well, prepare for any solidarity behind sheltering in place to flatten the curve to disappear pretty quick.

we are sacrificing a tremendous amount while these sociopaths cream their pants for their order out of chaos. fuck that. do not go gentle into that good night, friends. rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Posted by: lizard | Apr 13 2020 14:15 utc | 176

vaccine may actually exist. see "A Viral Pandemic or A Crime Scene?" (unz and or gilad.online)

It's a long essay and posits some experts' thoughts both about crime and about practical realities.

Mimics high altitude disease...

"...examine the Ness Ziona Lab will have to figure out how the Israeli institute is already so advanced in the development of a Covid-19 vaccine. According to the Israeli press, a novel corona virus vaccine is already being tested at the institute.

Ness Ziona is not alone at the front of the Corona vaccine race. Migal, another Israeli company, announced at the end of February that it was almost ready with a vaccine. Detectives should ascertain whether Migal, like other laboratories around the world, is a safe environment and that it wasn’t in the Galilee laboratory that a tiny but vicious virus escaped its guardians..."

Posted by: Walter | Apr 13 2020 14:17 utc | 177

For those of you who are watching the hidden hand of the magician to see what card comes next;
Here are some disconnected items.

US money
1) Spending; It’s reported that the federal government spent about $4.75 trillion last year (2019). This ignores the government’s debt payments. According to the Treasury Department, total spending in FY 2019 was nearly $16 trillion. (In the Daily Treasury Statements, this is calls Total Withdrawals.) By reporting spending to be $4.75 trillion, the feds are hiding most of their spending from us.
2) Borrowing; The federal government is borrowing a tremendous amount of money to make its payments on its Debt Held by the Public. - Goldman Sachs estimate of the US Treasury borrowing next year is $3T. of which the most ($2T) will be “bought” by the Fed.

of which;
2b) Of which; Foreign official sector: Governments, central banks and international organisations. Unlike in 2009, when foreigners stepped in to buy up a great deal of the securities issued by the Treasury department, the sector has more recently sold down its holdings. But, but...., apart from the Fed. the only other people "buying" are "money managers", or dealers.

————-
we are all in this together. hum.

EU countries locked in negotiations over a recovery plan to help member states hit hardest by the Covid-19 pandemic have been revealed to be losing over $10 billion in corporate tax a year to the Netherlands. New analysis shows that the EU countries with the highest reported cases of Covid-19 have been the biggest historical losers of corporate tax to the Netherlands, which is currently a leading opponent to solidarity measures proposed by the EU.

Tax losses were biggest in the four EU countries with the highest reported cases of Covid-19: France, with over 74,000 cases, lost over $2.7 billion in corporate tax to the Netherlands, Italy, with over 132,000 cases, lost over $1.5 billion, Germany, with over 99,000 cases, also lost over $1.5 billion and Spain, with 135,000 cases, lost nearly $1 billion to the Dutch tax haven.

--------
Overall, I think the ”reserve” status of the Dollar is over and the shenanigans in the world today are a visible part of the breakdown. ie Covid-19 may or may not be the catalyst but the “Termites of the billionaire class” are taking advantage of it to save themselves.

Of course there are also massive layoffs for “the others”, but hey, some are more equal than others. If you haven’t got a private plane to go to your private island, then you are equal to all the others in the mudhole.

If you want to know where all those “stimulus” packages are going
https://www.corporatetaxhavenindex.org/introduction/cthi-2019-results

Posted by: Stonebird | Apr 13 2020 14:18 utc | 178

A reader of MoA mentioned that his buddy was working in KSA and offered 2 months ago to receive a vaccine against the virus or leave. They probably have a beta-vaccin for SARS-1 that they take a chance to test.

Posted by: Mina | Apr 13 2020 14:23 utc | 179

What is missing from Ioannidis et al paper is the weight of the persons. I would suggest that the map of mortality in the sampled countries seems to follow the curve of higher figures for obesity. This certainly played a role, as does pollution, and there has been enough past studies on that anyway.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.05.20054361v1.full.pdf

Posted by: Mina | Apr 13 2020 14:28 utc | 180

Link to the "The work of the Labour Party’s Governance and Legal Unit in relation to antisemitism, 2014 - 2019" Report.

Starmer will be seeking to suppress this report. The report reveals that many of the officials within The Labour Party acted to undermine Corbyn, to promote the antisemitism witch-hunt and at the same time to hamper anti-semitic investigations.

"The Sqwawkbox" articles:

Leaked document accuses senior right-wing Labour staff of working against Corbyn – and reveals their dismay at electoral surge

Breaking: Burnham on leaked report: Labour right blocked my plans for public NHS/social care too

Excl: departing right-wing Labour staff ‘shredded’ 1000s of disciplinary docs – but gave copies to press

Excl: Lab HQ deactivated JC team passes on 2017 election night – and more (re-published article)

The questions Keir Starmer must now answer about leaked Labour report – but has not yet responded

The Labour Party is, and it's members are, Blairite and this will never change. If you remain a member of Labour you are a supporter of war, healthcare privatisation and neo-liberalism. THE LABOUR PARTY CANNOT BE REFORMED - AN ALTERNATIVE IS NEEDED.

Posted by: ADKC | Apr 13 2020 14:37 utc | 181

fairleft @168: Stanford University study of Covid-19 mortality risk.

Focusing on mortality is misleading.

Just as the widely reported "combat deaths" minimizes the casualties by ignoring the much larger number of those physically and mentally injured.

Covid-19 causes permanent lung damage (pulmonary fibrosis aka 'lung scarring'). Most people with pulmonary fibrosis die from complications within 5 years.

In addition, "Results" on page 2 states that Covid-19 deaths of under-65's: ... approach 30% in three US hotbed locations. I would guess that's because US healthcare and nutrition is poor so a larger percentage of people have conditions that make them susceptible to Covid-19.

Stanford researchers are supporting the Trump Administration's arguments for returning people to work at the earliest possible time. As part of that effort, the Trump Administration goal is to "bend the curve", not end the outbreak.

See more at my website.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 13 2020 14:44 utc | 182

WP says tornadoes have knocked out power to > a million ...

Domestic nukes are working 16 hour shifts...the same for thermal plants? Of course. Testing for dope based on "danger" is mostly bullchit, but fatigue does actually cause terrible events...now what can go wrong?
·
From Sleboda's twitterfeed>

2h
That would have been my department when I was in the Navy.
Quote Tweet
John Ismay
@johnismay
· 16h
Inside the TR: Reactor Department was the first to go down. Dr's estimated 50-67 could die. Other senior officers wanted to co-sign Crozier's letter, but he declined saying the burden was his alone to bear. Story w/ @Tmgneff @EricSchmittNYT @helenecooper https://nytimes.com/2020/04/12/us/

Posted by: Walter | Apr 13 2020 14:50 utc | 183

Larry Johnson @SST: We are at war with China

... the simple, horrible truth--the global spread of Corona 19 was a deliberate, conscious act by the Chinese Communist government to weaken the West, especially the United States.

. . .

Like it or not we are a[t] war with China. China is not our friend. It is an adversary keen on destroying America's place as the world's economic leader. It is not just a Corona attack. The Chinese Government is invested heavily in helping the Mexican and Colombian drug cartels produce and distribute synthetic narcotics, such as fentanyl, in the United States. China remains the world leader in product counterfeiting, which covers products from the most mundane consumer items to our most sophisticated technologies.


!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 13 2020 14:53 utc | 184

Jack, I would tend to agree, except for the "we" part. I say they are at war with those fellas...

But the idea does not follow that "those fellas" are the fellas what did "it".

It's actually, since "we" introduced biowar into Chine starting officially 01 January 1952, actually at least as workable a thesis that "we" attacked Chine with "it".

I mean, once you start this stuff ya gotta 'spect that the fingers will point at you...

Once ya rob a few banks, then when a bank gets robbed...

Posted by: Walter | Apr 13 2020 15:05 utc | 185

Happy Easter...I guess.

Personally, I think this world is ever more secular and we just needed a Coronavirus to prove it. Just because Churches were full at Christmas and Easter doesn't mean people are faithful. I guess one good thing about Coronavirus is that it strips away all hypocrisy. The Pagan ritual of Easter has been scaled down too, this time. I know it's a debbie downer attitude, but really: Do we deserve any celebration, and more importantly, is it appropriate?

On another note, and maybe not:

Let's recall who our real bosses are that destroyed Jeremy Corbyn's campaign and now Sanders.

pro-Israel group

And they want you to keep believing the Easter Bunny is real, cause it's much easier to manipulate a stupid herd than an enlightened one and cynics are also complicit in the fix.

But maybe it's just that people want to keep denying the vulnerable of society with selfish ignorance and apathy.

▪︎▪︎▪︎▪︎▪︎▪︎

Nothing is real except our humanity, and still we keep reaching for every pie in the sky, reminiscing enhanced nostalgia and are enthralled with all the shiny objects people jump for.

No we don't deserve a pat on the back for being able to stay home; or for a couple of months of discipline when everyone is bursting at the seams to escape to the same apathetic, distracted existence. We are still not enlightened, therefore not empowered. We are still craving the crack of credit materialism and self-indugent escapism. We are on a wheel where we exploit and are exploited to feed our habit. We are a junkie society temporarily confined, yet still resisting withdrawal. Ziofascist Trump is dreaming of a V recovery, counting on the addicted economy to crank the greed engine to full capacity again and everyone to resume pretend normal existence. So after after a planetary party of high-fiving self-congratulations for our short-lived sacrifice, we'll all go back to our sugar-high, complicit, complacent normal existence (A). Except this normal is Disneyland and reality physics says that A will trigger B.

There is massive pressure on the dam with fault lines everywhere holding back a raging reality-check tsunami. Ergo, really hard times must come. (B)

Everyone who is not battle-hardened and conditioned by real sacrifice will flounder. We are only now witnessing the tip of New Normal. The only path to real humanity is pain and we are embarking on it. Gen X, Millenials i.e. Gen Y, and Gen Z will suffer New Normal most, cause they've been swinging even on Sunday, in breach of no one swings on Sunday. Meanwhile Baby Boomers will start to disappear.

No one gets away from the Cosmic Slap and this one's been long overdue.

Posted by: Circe | Apr 13 2020 15:06 utc | 186

@ my 177 (vaccine) this Kennedy essay> "Vaccines and the Liberal Mind"

"...Instead of demanding blue-ribbon safety science and encouraging honest, open and responsible debate on the science, too many online outlets are silencing critics and shutting down discussion on this key public health and civil rights issue..." By Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

Raises some thoughts...

Posted by: Walter | Apr 13 2020 15:13 utc | 187

@JackRabbit #16
Locking down a state is not the same as regulating interstate commerce.
The federal government could easily lock down travel between states, but this is not the same as locking the states down internally.
As for CDC: if they were gospel, why are the anti-vaxers so prevalent in many areas?
In any case, your answers perhaps indicated that you understand that the federal government does not have the actual power to lock down states, nor does the CDC have the actual or theoretical power to lock down states, to perform contact tracing or the force/enforce quarantines on individuals.

The actual CDC charter (and related federal health powers) can be seen here

CDC’s Role

Under 42 Code of Federal Regulations parts 70 and 71, CDC is authorized to detain, medically examine, and release persons arriving into the United States and traveling between states who are suspected of carrying these communicable diseases.

As part of its federal authority, CDC routinely monitors persons arriving at U.S. land border crossings and passengers and crew arriving at U.S. ports of entry for signs or symptoms of communicable diseases.

When alerted about an ill passenger or crew member by the pilot of a plane or captain of a ship, CDC may detain passengers and crew as necessary to investigate whether the cause of the illness on board is a communicable disease.

State, Local, and Tribal Law

States have police power functions to protect the health, safety, and welfare of persons within their borders. To control the spread of disease within their borders, states have laws to enforce the use of isolation and quarantine.

These laws can vary from state to state and can be specific or broad. In some states, local health authorities implement state law. In most states, breaking a quarantine order is a criminal misdemeanor.

Tribes also have police power authority to take actions that promote the health, safety, and welfare of their own tribal members. Tribal health authorities may enforce their own isolation and quarantine laws within tribal lands, if such laws exist.

Who Is in Charge

The federal government

Acts to prevent the entry of communicable diseases into the United States. Quarantine and isolation may be used at U.S. ports of entry.
Is authorized to take measures to prevent the spread of communicable diseases between states.
May accept state and local assistance in enforcing federal quarantine.
May assist state and local authorities in preventing the spread of communicable diseases.

State, local, and tribal authorities

Enforce isolation and quarantine within their borders.

It is possible for federal, state, local, and tribal health authorities to have and use all at the same time separate but coexisting legal quarantine power in certain events. In the event of a conflict, federal law is supreme.
Enforcement

If a quarantinable disease is suspected or identified, CDC may issue a federal isolation or quarantine order.

Public health authorities at the federal, state, local, and tribal levels may sometimes seek help from police or other law enforcement officers to enforce a public health order.

U.S. Customs and Border Protection and U.S. Coast Guard officers are authorized to help enforce federal quarantine orders.

Breaking a federal quarantine order is punishable by fines and imprisonment.

Federal law allows the conditional release of persons from quarantine if they comply with medical monitoring and surveillance.

In the rare event that a federal order is issued by CDC, those individuals will be provided with an order for quarantine or isolation. An example of a Quarantine Order for Novel Coronavirus (print-only) pdf icon[PDF – 5 pages] is provided. This document outlines the rationale of the federal order as well as information on where the individual will be located, quarantine requirements including the length of the order, CDC’s legal authority, and information outlining what the individual can expect while under federal order.

This is very clear: the responsibility for US citizens' health lies squarely with the state they reside in. The federal government and CDC are only empowered for interstate and incoming/outgoing international.

Posted by: c1ue | Apr 13 2020 15:27 utc | 188

“The same Congress that has insisted we cannot afford a universal basic income, Medicare for All, free state college tuition, and other critically needed programs has suddenly discovered that it has unlimited funds to ‘do whatever it takes’ to rescue corporations and the stock market. Meanwhile the individuals, local governments, and local businesses suffering the devastating consequences of the shutdown have essentially been left out of this bailout. But relief for all is possible, if the central bank is run as a true public utility..."

http://accuracy.org/…/a-critical-care-bailout-for-main-str…/

I said as much in my collapse can be avoided piece in the open thread 17, and in another post don't remember where but it, too, was ignored.

Please everyone just stop buying into this MANUFACTURED ECONOMIC FALSITY that we have to choose between preventing scads of unnecessary deaths and economic prosperity. IT ISN'T SO. You're being had. We absolutely can protect our frontline working families by the rest of us staying home WITHOUT the nation and the economy suffering tragic collapse. I'm not saying there will be no pain at all, but the hysterical predictions of damage CAN AND MUST BE AVOIDED. The wrong CHOICES are being made by and on behalf of wealthpower giants - oh what a surprise - DUH. There is nothing inevitable about collapse. Read the article, please. I did a preview and it looks ok, but I am holding my breath while I dare post my first-ever link, you betcha.

Posted by: Phryne's frock | Apr 13 2020 15:37 utc | 189

>Other senior officers wanted to co-sign Crozier's letter, but
>he declined saying the burden was his alone to bear.

A true leader. Too bad he wasn't leading a public health agency instead of a public killing machine.

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Apr 13 2020 15:40 utc | 190

Geewhiz. Sometime back Kerry said there was a "Plan B". Oh, wait, was it "Plan C"? Audio distortion...

Posted by: Walter | Apr 13 2020 15:40 utc | 191

#fairleft #114
The 0.37% study is not credible. Lombardy mortality to date is 0.1% of the entire population - so nCOV would have to had infected at least 27% of the population, unlikely.
More importantly, Lombardy's population is 22.5% over 65. The mortality for over 65 is well documented to be much, much higher than for under 50.
Any and every study is easily skewed by the age impact of nCOV mortality, as well as normal study problems of sample size etc.

Posted by: c1ue | Apr 13 2020 15:42 utc | 192

b? dare I suggest that accuracy dot org link deserves front page attention?

Posted by: Phryne's frock | Apr 13 2020 15:44 utc | 193

I suspect that the stonyhearted eleet power addicts will exploit the novel coronavirus as an arbitrarily materialized point of departure, from whence they will inflict some new hardships upon the ever-victimized commonalty. They don't really need to make any more money for themselves, but they do need to 'churn' the social systems of the peasants in order to maintain an expedient degree of mutual alienation. And of course, in order to enjoy yet another episode of personal entertainment.

Posted by: blues | Apr 13 2020 15:55 utc | 194

The Tangled History of Illness and Idiocy - The pandemic is stress-testing two concepts Americans have historically gotten wrong

The article omits America's most famous case of idiocy in illness: it's founder and first president, George Washington.

In 1799, George Washington got a sore throat. The symptoms described indicate nothing more than flu at worst, but Washington demanded his doctor to do bloodletting. After half liter drained, the disease got worse. Washington's reaction? Demand more blood to be drained. After two more liters drained, his immune system was basically destroyed, and what was a mere sore throat became sepsis, and America's fist president was dead the same year.

--//--

South Korea blinked:

Unemployment allowance hits record high amid pandemic

S. Korea mulls easing social-distancing rules

--//--

Japan continues to crumble, as predicted:

Osaka, Fukuoka call on businesses to shut down to help fight pandemic

Japanese cities and prefectures hire workers left jobless in virus chaos

82% say government should compensate firms that shut down for virus

Social-democracy: where capitalism gives socialism the rope with which it hangs itself.

Posted by: vk | Apr 13 2020 15:56 utc | 195

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 13 2020 14:53 utc | 184

Larry Johnson @SST: We are at war with China

... the simple, horrible truth--the global spread of Corona 19 was a deliberate, conscious act by the Chinese Communist government to weaken the West, especially the United States.

Not sure what's up with Larry Johnson. There was a Hillary deadender, PUMA type blog, "No Quarter", a few years back run by a Larry Johnson who self-identified as a former intelligence officer and who also posted at dem establishment central, DailyKos. I suspect it's the same guy. I'd like to know his story but doubt if there's any point in asking on Lang's site.

Posted by: sleepy | Apr 13 2020 15:56 utc | 196

If the rates were the following in the us, these would be the results. Anything higher than this would overwhelm our hospital capacity.
0.62% infection rate 2,021,425
0.31% hospitalization rate 998,275
0.12% death rate 403,238

If they were only slightly higher, these would be the results. At this rate approximately 35% of people needing hospitalization would not be able to get it. A significant number of them would die pushing the total amount of deaths to well over 1,000,000.
1.00% infection rate 3,270,000
0.50% hospitalization rate 1,635,000
0.25% death rate 806,475

Based on the limited info we have available, the rates are likely to be higher than both of those above, but even at those paltry rates we are in deep shit without the stay at home orders. A poster above said we should all go back to work because the latest morbidity rate was a measly .37%, that would be 1,209,900 dead. I don't think most people have a good grasp of math.

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William Gruff | Apr 13 2020 14:13 utc | 174

That first paragraph was awesome. I got a good chuckle out of that.

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Jackrabbit | Apr 13 2020 14:53 utc | 184

Thats a pretty crazy statement, if they wanted to destroy us all they would have to do is stop selling us stuff. The US wouldnt last two weeks if china stopped exporting things to us.

Posted by: David F | Apr 13 2020 16:01 utc | 197

here is Phryne's frock | Apr 13 2020 15:37 utc | 189 link

Posted by: dan of steele | Apr 13 2020 16:01 utc | 198

Covid-19 causes permanent lung damage (pulmonary fibrosis aka 'lung scarring'). Most people with pulmonary fibrosis die from complications within 5 years. Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 13 2020 14:44 utc | 182

You mean there's still hope re Boris Johnson? It'll be moot though cause by then he will have done his damage.

Regretably, Trump is in the cockroach category...hard to get rid of.

if I can't get a goddamn break from my wonderful but absolutely stir-crazy children by taking them to grandma and grandpa's, well, prepare for any solidarity behind sheltering in place to flatten the curve to disappear pretty quick.

Posted by: lizard | Apr 13 2020 14:15 utc | 176

Uh...They YOUR self-willed blessing; not grandma's and grandpa's when they become a BURDEN.

Jackrabbit@184

If Larry Johnson's mother didn't claim responsibility for bringing him into this world, he would blame China for that error in judgment too.

If he ever gets Cancer, he'll be begging for Chinese or any kind of fentanyl.

He rants like the U.S. never screwed anyone over.

Posted by: Circe | Apr 13 2020 16:04 utc | 199

Posted by: David F | Apr 13 2020 16:01 utc | 197

"The US wouldnt last two weeks if china stopped exporting things to us."

Chima wouldn't last three weeks if its manufacturing base and export market to the US disappeared.

Posted by: sleepy | Apr 13 2020 16:07 utc | 200

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