Mask is the only serious protection needed to protect from the virus propagation. The virus enters the body only through the eyes, nose and mouth. It does not enter through hands. Washing hands is only to prevent touching the face after touching an infected item
If everybody wears a fully proofed mask the 'social distanciation is not needed anymore!
When will governments distribute free full proof masks and make it mandatory to wear when one goes out?
I hope that this will happen soon, otherwise we will be here until there is a vaccine!

Posted by: virgile | Apr 12 2020 16:02 utc | 1

A Rachael Carson Easter - Silent, only the birds and occasional vehicle, no trucking to be heard. Air washed with showers and clean for the day. Only spring pollen to sneeze at, bless the flowers, trees and grass greening for the season. Best …

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Apr 12 2020 16:08 utc | 2

“No matter how long I live, I don’t think I will ever get over how the U.S., with all its wealth and technological capability and academic prowess, sleepwalked into the disaster that is unfolding,” says Kai Kupferschmidt, a German science writer.

I am continuously amazed at how incompetence is always assumed so as to give elites a pass.

It seems to me that the Trump Administration delayed a response to the virus so as to ensure that they could declare an emergency which allowed them to 'play' the virus in a way that benefited special interests and furthered imperial goals:

• soft-landing for Wall Street;
• bail-out favored corporations;
• increase Big Pharma profits;
• blame China.

<> <> <> <> <>

See my at jackrabbit.blog

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 12 2020 16:09 utc | 3

“No matter how long I live, I don’t think I will ever get over how the U.S., with all its wealth and technological capability and academic prowess, sleepwalked into the disaster that is unfolding,” says Kai Kupferschmidt, a German science writer.

I am continuously amazed at how incompetence is always assumed so as to give elites a pass.

It seems to me that the Trump Administration delayed a response to the virus so as to ensure that they could declare an emergency which allowed them to 'play' the virus in a way that benefited special interests and furthered imperial goals:

• soft-landing for Wall Street;
• bail-out favored corporations;
• increase Big Pharma profits;
• blame China.

<> <> <> <> <>

See my at jackrabbit.blog

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 12 2020 16:09 utc | 4

Victims Of Communism Memorial Foundation Adds Global Coronavirus Deaths To Its Tally Of Historical Victims Of Communism.

This is not a joke.
It seems that clinical idiocy has become a characteristic and integral feature of a large part of the Western "expert" community.

Posted by: alaff | Apr 12 2020 16:10 utc | 5

@b

I only posted my comment once.

This is the second or third time in recent weeks where the post is duplicated.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 12 2020 16:11 utc | 6

Whatever the origin of covid-19, it fits the need for a stick to beat China with. It is being used that way.

Pivot to Asia. Tariffs. Hong Kong protests. Virus that attacked China’s livestock. Virus that attacked China’s people.

What do the coincidence theorists say?

Posted by: oglalla | Apr 12 2020 16:12 utc | 7

Incompetence? Or influence of Big Pharma?

March 23 or 24: Governor Cuomo announces that NYS has acquired a large stock of hydroxyChloroquine and will begin testing it on Coronovirus patients.

The hydroxyChloroquine therapy produces results in 6 days.

April 12: Governor Cuomo says that there are no results from hydroxyChloroquine use.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 12 2020 16:18 utc | 8

Incompetence? Or influence of Big Pharma?

March 23 or 24: Governor Cuomo announces that NYS has acquired a large stock of hydroxyChloroquine and will begin testing it on Coronovirus patients.

The hydroxyChloroquine therapy produces results in 6 days.

April 12: Governor Cuomo says that there are no results from hydroxyChloroquine use.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 12 2020 16:18 utc | 9

@virgile #1
People touch their faces a lot.
Nobody wears a mask 3600/12/24/7/365. Among other things, you have to eat/drink.

Posted by: c1ue | Apr 12 2020 16:18 utc | 10

The Tooze article in the London Review is nonsense.

The mini-recession in US manufacturing that hit industrial regions like Michigan and Wisconsin was an underappreciated factor in setting the stage for Trump’s surprise victory in 2016.

Apparently Tooze never heard of NAFTA.

America has a formidable public health apparatus, and had well-laid plans for dealing with a pandemic.

Or read a newspaper. Hard to take anything he says seriously after these gaffes.

Posted by: Noah Way | Apr 12 2020 16:20 utc | 11

Footnote to my post @11

“No matter how long I live, I don’t think I will ever get over how the U.S., with all its wealth and technological capability and academic prowess, sleepwalked into the disaster that is unfolding,” says Kai Kupferschmidt, a German science writer.

From the MoA tagged article Analysis: Virus Shows Benefit of Learning ...

Posted by: Noah Way | Apr 12 2020 16:24 utc | 12

@JackRabbit #3

I've noted before: it isn't really clear to me that the federal government can force all the states to lock down.
That's not how the government in the United States works.
Nor does the CDC - now or ever - have the operational and legal means to directly do contract tracing or even force/enforce quarantines on recalcitrant people. They normally work in conjunction with state and local authorities - serving to provide services which don't make sense for state/local and to coordinate between different state/local departments.

Trump could have called for a lockdown in January in theory - note called, not forced. Then the economic consequences - which are guaranteed - would land squarely on his head even as the implementation would be out of his control.

Hence my question as to what you think - in retrospect from today - what Trump should have done and when?

Posted by: c1ue | Apr 12 2020 16:40 utc | 13

Jackrabbit @3

Also, you should add that the US has increased its sanctions and war-manoeuvring. During a pandemic this is despicable, but, broadly, US/Western people are unconcerned.

Abby Martin does a review of what the US has been up to during the pandemic:

US Empire Exploits COVID-19 For More War

Everybody seems to believe in the 'magic money tree' but I have difficulty in believing in Santa Claus. If the US economy is in ruins (as it may well be) then, it seems to me that a military-backed resource grab (a war, in other words) has to happen and that Venezuela is the most likely target.

I don't believe that Abby Martin covers Ukraine in her video:- Ukraine have abrogated Minsk II (they would not have done so with US/NATO/West direction), shelling of Donbas appears to have increased, and the MH17 trial will continue throughout 2020 and possibly longer. The MH17 trial outcome is predetermined and, I would imagine, the timescale is largely under US/NATO/West control - what happens if a verdict is given (effectively against the breakaway republics and Russia) during the pandemic or depression that follows?

Posted by: ADKC | Apr 12 2020 16:51 utc | 14

It's important to note that the cost of delay is paid in the lives lost in the last weeks, not the lives lost in the first weeks.

First 6-weeks: hundreds of lives lost

Last 6-weeks: possibly tens of thousands of lives lost + tens of thousands with lung scarring' (pulmonary fibrosis)

PLUS

'Virus mitigation' means that the pandemic continues over years.

'Virus suppression' is the strategy of countries that want to end the pandemic (China, South Korea and others)

!!

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 12 2020 16:58 utc | 15

c1ue @13: That's not how the government in the United States works.

Federal government has great power via regulation of interstate commerce.

President has the bully pulpit.

And CDC guidance is practically gospel in medical circles.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 12 2020 17:04 utc | 16

At his FB, Pepe Escobar informs us about "THE CHINESE SOCIAL CREDIT SYSTEM – IN DETAIL"

"In my 'Who Profits from the Pandemic' essay – on Consortium News and republished in myriad places, The Saker, Global Research, Unz Review, ZeroHedge, etc. – unfortunately I did not have enough space to detail how the Chinese social credit system works (I had to edit out a lot of info, otherwise the final cut would have more than 5,000 words).

"The system is not Orwellian in a Western sense – or as Orwellian as people who know LESS THAN ZERO about China insist. China is a collectivist society. Yes, this can be used as a mechanism of control – in terms of political dissent - but mostly it aims to facilitate people’s lives. It is a VOLUNTARY system.

"A very good academic analysis
is HERE. Keep it for reference

"Godfree Roberts, commenting on my essay on Consortium News, offered a VERY good explanation, which I reproduce here in full.

"1. It’s essentially an Amazon Review of everyone by everyone they’ve ever dealt with. It’s exactly like the ‘reviews’ we give friends (behind their backs?) constantly updated in the same ways.

"2. It ranks not only every citizen who chooses to participate, but every government official, cop, judge, department, corporation and shoeshine. It’s truly universal. There’s no privileged, hidden operator that’s spared, and no one pulling the strings. Government departments, officials, cops, corporations, Supreme Court justices, Congresspeople–everyone gets social credit if they want it (participation is voluntary). Doesn’t this sound better than our system, where private corporations rate us and sell the information to other private corporations and government agencies without our permission and with limited access–but offer no reciprocity? Ask TRW for a vendor rating and see how far you get.

"3. It’s a popular initiative as much as a government initiative: the Chinese are the most trusting people on earth and they’re tired of being scammed online for billions each year. (They’re especially trusting of their government which 86% of people say works for everybody and not just for a fortunate few).

"4. It’s 90% carrot and 10% stick: the higher your score the easier your life becomes. Japan and the Netherlands, for example, now offer expedited visa processing for Chinese travelers with scores above 750. Landlords waive deposits if you’re over 800…and so on.

"5. It’s part of China’s 2,000-year-old plan to create a datong society in which (to be brief) everybody is taken care of and nobody needs to lock their doors at night–a goal that every Chinese supports and which the government hopes to deliver by 2049.

"In short, our media are interpreting yet another Chinese policy in Western terms. China is nothing like us. Nothing. It’s a different civilization and it does things differently." [My Emphasis]

At his FB, Pepe has also posted a 4-part "Analysis by Alexander Dugin, Edited by Pepe Escobar" that I'll copy/paste in my next comment.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 12 2020 17:04 utc | 17

COV.

best summary / meta on studies, treatment attempts re. chloroquine / hydroxychloroquine, that I could turn up today 12 Apr.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O6Cls-Oz2ZAgJuyDbnICEGjMvQPEyM-aaXARUomR9Ww/edit

In France, the controversy pro/contra treatment with chloro. (plus associated meds, etc. see link) and Pr. Raoult who first touted its use (Raoult is a ‘top!’ expert) is tearing the country apart. Hallucinating to watch, as all scientific criteria (which may not be great, as in too strict, or misguided, or trivial thus not enforced, etc. etc.) are swept away in a vicious battle.

Raoult has huge support (so much so that wife Bibi convinced Manu (Macron) to go see him to …appear to be I suppose egalitarian and taking the proper things into account..) amongst ordinary folks who sympathise with his stance as a clinician: if it works, go for it, specially on desperate patients .. who cares about stupid rules which in any case only favor big Pharma, etc.

The eeelite Gov - Media - Intellectual - Health hoi polloi in Paris are rigidly opposed. (The quarrels are long-standing but weren’t revealed to the public until now.) So endorsing some possible therapy for covid-19 is being drawn along strange lines, many linked to class or oppo to present Gov. E.g. Marine Le Pen supports Raoult in the sense that she says docs. *should* prescribe what they want (easy out.) Mélenchon (main left wing oppo) as Raoult is against ‘high up people’ (les belles personnes), etc.

All very bad for any rational handling of this pandemic.

photo le monde. Macron at left, Raoult third from left. :)

https://tinyurl.com/u75s6g2

Posted by: Noirette | Apr 12 2020 17:07 utc | 18

@ Posted by: alaff | Apr 12 2020 16:10 utc | 5

It's Schrodinger's China: a nation that is, at the same time, communist and capitalist (neocons; center-left/trotskyists), inneficient and extremely efficient (this everybody uses and changes according to the season), near collapse and bound to dominate the world (neocons; far-right).

--//--

French hospital stops hydroxycloroquine after collateral effects to the heart:

Hospital francês suspende teste com cloroquina em paciente por alto risco cardíaco

Does hydroxycloroquine work against COVID-19? Yes, it does - in extremely high dosages, and only at the initial stages of the disease.

But at the cost of destroying the heart of the patient.

Long story short: the collateral effects of hydroxycloroquine do not compensate for its benefits when used as treatment for COVID-19.

Can we put this story to rest?

Posted by: vk | Apr 12 2020 17:08 utc | 19

thanks b... i am kind of bad because i tend to not go to many other websites and rely heavily on moa... so the question posed by off guardian - "Why are some respected alt-media embracing a police state?" is loaded and controversial enough to stimulate some debate among those who frequent other sites.. in fact it was suggested by some posters here - not posters i generally know well - that moa had fallen into this trap as well.. i can't see it myself.. the poster BM seems to suggest that fear is such a strong emotion that many lose contact with reality if it kicks in strong enough.. i can't agree with that, but it is hard to know what is valid and what is speculative and what is just flat out wrong sometimes.. one could argue the off guardian article is fear mongering itself... i tend to see it this way, without analyzing it too much myself..

of course allen @ 95 in the previous article - how the coronavirus killed the shale industry - and BM responded on that thread too.. maybe they want to offer more of their thoughts on this article from off-g here on this thread??

Posted by: james | Apr 12 2020 17:10 utc | 20

i can't disagree with that... sorry, fixed it..

Posted by: james | Apr 12 2020 17:12 utc | 21

WHERE WE ARE NOW – PART 1 OF 4

Analysis by Alexander Dugin
Edited by Pepe Escobar

"I have read virtually EVERYTHING, East and West, in terms of detailed analysis of our current, game-changing, global stage of siege – not to mention private conversations with top analysts and the tsunami of think tank reports I have to sift through in my inbox.

"The insights by my friend Dugin are right at the very top. I am publishing an edited version in 4 successive, condensed posts. I personally agree with 90% of his conceptualization – especially the notion of the state in mutation (like the virus) turning ever more dictatorial, and the collapse of the global liberal world.

"This is an effort to invite an informed discussion with you – a global audience. Any entity with zero informed comment to offer, or prone to debased ad hominem attacks stay away – and I’m being very polite about it. For now.

"Part 1:

"The coronavirus has already struck a blow from which neither politics, economics, nor ideology will recover. The pandemic would have to have been dealt with by the existing institutions, in normal mode without changing the basic rules:
- neither in politics (meaning no quarantine, no forced isolation, let alone a state of emergency);
- nor in the economy (no remote work, no stopping of production, exchanges and financial- industrial institutions or trading platforms, no vacation, etc.);
- nor in ideology (no restrictions, albeit temporary on essential civil rights, freedom of movement, the cancellation or postponement of elections, referenda, etc.).

"...but all of this has already happened on a global scale, including in Western countries, i.e., in the territory of the 'world government' itself. The very foundations of the global system have been suspended.

"For the 'world government' to take such a step, it had to be forced to do so. By whom?

Part-2:

"The state, mutating as fast as the virus:

"Everywhere in the world - whether openly or by default - a state of emergency has been declared. According to the classics of political thought, and in particular Carl Schmitt, this means the establishment of a regime of dictatorship. The sovereign, according to Schmitt, is he who makes the decision in an emergency situation (Ernstfall), and today this is the state. However, it should not be forgotten that today’s state has until the altogether recent last moment been based on the principles of liberal democracy, capitalism, and the ideology of human rights.

"In other words, this state is, in some sense, deciding on the liquidation of its own philosophical and ideological basis (even if such are for now formalized, temporary measures, the Roman Empire still began with the temporary dictatorship of Caesar, which gradually became permanent). Thus, the state is rapidly mutating, just as the virus itself is mutating, and the state is following the coronavirus in this constantly evolving struggle, which is taking the situation ever further from the point of global liberal democracy. All the extant borders which until yesterday seemed to be erased or half-erased are once again gaining fundamental meaning."

Part-3

"New algorithms engendering a new dictatorial state:

"Over the course of this epidemic, a new state is emerging which is beginning to function with new rules. It is very likely that in the process of the state of emergency there will be a shift of power from formal rulers to technical and technological functionaries, e.g., the military, epidemiologists, and institutions especially created for such extreme circumstances.

"As legal norms are suspended, new algorithms of behavior and new practices are beginning to be deployed. Thus is born the dictatorial state, which, unlike the liberal-democratic state, has completely different goals, foundations, principles and axioms. In this case, the "world government" is dissolved, because any supranational strategy loses all meaning. Power is rapidly moving to an ever lower level - but not to society and not to citizens, but to the military-technological and medical-sanitary level. A radically new rationality is gaining force - not the rationale of democracy, freedom, the market and individualism, but that of pure survival, for which responsibility is assumed by a subject combining direct power and the possession of technical, technological, and medical logistics. Moreover, in the network society, such is based on a system of total surveillance excluding any kind of privacy.

"Thus, if at one end we have the virus as the subject of transformation, then at the other end we have military-medical surveillance and punitive dictatorship fundamentally differing in all parameters from the state that we knew until yesterday. It is not at all guaranteed that such a state, in its fight against the secular 'plague gods', will precisely coincide with the borders of existing national entities."

Part-4

"The state of emergency and the collapse of the global liberal order:

"Agamben has been more radical than others and opposed the measures taken against the coronavirus, preferring even death to the introduction of a state of emergency. He clearly saw that even a small step in this direction will change the entire structure of the world order. Entering the stage of dictatorship is easy, but exiting it is sometimes impossible.

"It is impossible to go back to the world order that existed only recently and which seemed so familiar and natural that no one thought about its ephemerality. Liberalism either did not reach its natural end and the establishment of a 'world government', or nihilistic collapse was its original goal, merely covered by an increasingly less convincing and increasingly perverse 'humanist' decor.

"The end of globalization will not mean, however, a simple transition to the Westphalian system, to realism and a system of closed trade states (Fichte). Such would require the well- defined ideology that existed in early Modernity, but which was completely eradicated in late Modernity, and especially in Postmodernity. The demonization of anything remotely resembling 'nationalism' or 'fascism' has led to the total rejection of national identities, and now the severity of the biological threat and its crude physiological nature makes national myths superfluous. The military-medical dictatorship does not need additional methods to motivate the masses.

"The global liberal world has collapsed before our very eyes, just as the USSR and the world socialist system fell in 1991. Our consciousness refuses to believe in such colossal shifts, and especially in their irreversibility. But we must. It is better to conceptualize and comprehend them in advance - now, as long as things have not yet become so acute."

Dugin does provoke the mind to think. I certainly have my own comments to make, but they'll need to wait for later after today's Easter program here at my hermitage on the shoreline where it's a superb Spring day and the grill will be lit to flame broil our small feast.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 12 2020 17:24 utc | 22

I'm no doctor or expert, but I do not believe anyone really knows all that much about viral diseases and immune systems. The 'tests' for viruses such as the novel corona virus are the 'PCR', whereby you (try to) isolate just one viral RNA genome and cause it to multiply billions of times with a very special protein, and also the very different 'antibody' test, where you look for antibody proteins that cling on to the virus (different victims likely have very different antibodies). Plus I have read that a person's immune systems can (strangely enough) 'chase' the virus around from one organ to another (I have read that some organs have their own particular immune systems).

It is all very complicated.

What I read about zinc: zinc ('salts') probably do help kill the virus. However every cell needs 1 (tiny) part of copper ('salts') for each part of zinc ('salts'). And if you take too much zinc for too long it can block assimilation of the copper which you also need, eventually killing you, I suppose. Then there is selenium, a deadly heavy metal which you also cannot live without in tiny amounts. So the scientists know a huge amount, yet not nearly enough. There is no worse waste of time reading people arguing about things that are totally useless to argue about. You just have to make your payments and take your chances.

Posted by: blues | Apr 12 2020 17:27 utc | 23

@18 wrote "Long story short: the collateral effects of hydroxycloroquine do not compensate for its benefits when used as treatment for COVID-19. Can we put this story to rest?"

NO. The only refernce in @18 is a two paragraph MSM article describing the fact the CQ (not HCQ) has a known potential side effect in certain patients to cause atrial fibrillation. That side effect has been long know because of use of the drug for lupus, malaria and RA.

vk - if that's all you've got to counter the myriads of reports of success with HCQ/CQ AND ZINC, then it is you that should put your anti HCQ/CQ story to rest.

Posted by: Don Wills | Apr 12 2020 17:44 utc | 24

Oops. vk's post was @19

Posted by: Don Wills | Apr 12 2020 17:45 utc | 25

>today’s state has until the altogether recent last moment been
>based on the principles of liberal democracy, capitalism, and
>the ideology of human rights.

Sorry, no. The nation state is a near-monopoly on violence, created by violence, and expects obedience. All the other blah blah blah is window-dressing to ease the manufacture of consent. Until humans are willing to look beyond institutions based on hierarchy and violence, we are doomed to an endless cycle of empires rising then collapsing, just like the last 5000 (or more) years.

For a long time I have felt that the whole world is a prison, and now with widespread house arrest that is literally true. How long will the prisoners remain passive?

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Apr 12 2020 17:54 utc | 26

I ran across this short video this morning and found it provocative: I’m curious about what reaction it might get here?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=11DrPL-hpQY&fbclid=IwAR3dXkIE2VDd-xmpXxZC_s4h09L1xXwZANaTC3Ipl-cWLSw-DQC2-iMmcwo

Posted by: John Sanguinetti | Apr 12 2020 18:06 utc | 27

Jrabbit @ 3 & 4 asked;
"Why are people not more skeptical?"

Everyone should absolutely consider all the angles being exposed by this virus, and this
video is part of it.

There are people, as part of the ruling elites, who would stop at NOTHING, to acquire more power and influence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_TPjbu4FAE&t=278s

This was posted weeks ago, here at MoA. Kudos for that prior post...

Posted by: ben | Apr 12 2020 18:16 utc | 28

Who benefits..

www.reuters.com

As the U.S. Federal Reserve rolls out trillions of dollars to blunt the economic fallout of the coronavirus pandemic, there’s a notable difference to the last financial crisis: close to zero concern over “moral hazard” - the sticky business of bailing out those whose dilemma is of their own making.
That’s freed up the U.S. central bank to do more, and faster, than it dared to do a decade ago, when it was last called on to launch emergency moves to help protect the economy.

Plus China decoupling, Boeing bailout, life even harder for Iran and Venezuela ... definately a good side to the coronavirus for the US.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 12 2020 18:18 utc | 29

@Posted by: alaff | Apr 12 2020 16:10 utc | 5

That is not all, Wikipeda, has positioned Spain as a Communist country...

This, when Spain has not nationalized anything, not even has seized any private clinic...which remained empty in Madrid when the pbulic system was already collapsing...
It is the US who has merged the Fed with Wall Street to nationalize the loses of especially BlackRock and privatice gains once saniticed....

Neolengua....

For the one asking for full proven masks for the population, those are not yet even available for front line health workers, after two months of outbreak....

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Apr 12 2020 18:20 utc | 30

@ 22 karlof1

My own opinion, which I know was not asked for here, is that the Trump phenomenon is unconsciously working out a new order in the west which will challenge the old order, of which China has risen in ascension to command and will be the future full-spectrum dominant power.

In other words, it is the result of westerners not wanting to be ruled by an eastern power, which I would argue, lies at the heart of the western mind. We would rather die and sabotage the globalized order which we would no longer lead than to be ruled by a foreign empire.

This I will forever welcome, although in the short term it looks as though painful but beneficial new realities will have to transpire. It also means the end of American transgression in the east and this will have rippling effects in our own sphere of influence in the western hemisphere. Those who advocate an end to the MIC will have much to be thankful for in the coming years.

The sooner China realizes this, the sooner it will drop the act of looking to usurp Washington in the old order and just accept that the ship has sailed and they will now be contained in their sphere. When the blacks move in to the yacht club, you know the whites will be shaking their head and abandoning their membership in droves.

Does Trump understand this? Is he walking the tight rope and playing both ends against the middle? There are obviously some around him who would cling to the old order as long as they are getting theirs even if China is at the helm.

The other wild card is, of course, Africa. And that is where the future of all foreign entanglements will lie.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Apr 12 2020 18:26 utc | 31

Think anyone would consider this virus, as a "culling the herd" moment? Or, is the fact that, this virus attacks the elderly and the poor in greater numbers than all others, just a coincidence?

Worth thinking about...

Posted by: ben | Apr 12 2020 18:28 utc | 32

This website has now a most useful section on "political developments"
https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/

Posted by: Mina | Apr 12 2020 18:29 utc | 33

Interesting map, showing that most of Europe has between 0-10 dead per 100,000 hab, and (finally) giving an (approximate) indication of the density of population
https://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2020/04/12/coronavirus-dans-l-union-europeenne-ce-que-revele-la-cartographie_6036364_3244.html

Posted by: Mina | Apr 12 2020 18:35 utc | 34

virgile@1 - agreed.

Nassim Nicholas Taleb has a couple of tweets that are relevant:

"The argument by the @WHO imbeciles & journo fellow travelers that masks "can give a false sense of security" is interesting. Let's apply it to:
+seat belts +airbags +helmets +door locks +condoms
+circuit breakers +parachutes +bulletproof vests +fire alarms
+scholomorochs ..." - Nassim Nicholas Taleb @nntaleb

MASKS : One comment about masks and nonlinearities that these imbeciles are not getting.
Reducing exposure to viruses by 30% thanks to an "imperfect" mask does not mean reducing risk of contracting the disease by just 30%. By convexity, it must be more than 30%, can even be 95%.

- Nassim Nicholas Taleb @nntaleb 7:22 AM • Apr 12,

Then, there's this March 27 article at sciencemag.org by Jon CohenMar. 27, 2020 titled "Not wearing masks to protect against coronavirus is a ‘big mistake, top Chinese scientist says." He interviews George Gao, director-general of the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Not wanting to get abuse, I'll leave it to someone else to post the link. An excerpt:

Q: What mistakes are other countries making?

A: The big mistake in the U.S. and Europe, in my opinion, is that people aren’t wearing masks. This virus is transmitted by droplets and close contact. Droplets play a very important role—you’ve got to wear a mask, because when you speak, there are always droplets coming out of your mouth. Many people have asymptomatic or presymptomatic infections. If they are wearing face masks, it can prevent droplets that carry the virus from escaping and infecting others.

Posted by: spudski | Apr 12 2020 18:41 utc | 35

also noticed that off-guardian has gone full retard on the issue. i get not loving the reaction to the virus but they seem to have the annoying and widespread binary "if you believe a word about it you're part of the NWO" view. very alex jonesian. still not as moronic as the guys at "anti-empire" (formerly "checkpoint asia"). apparently if you want to slow the spread of the virus you're gay and/or a "soy boy" (makes sense since a lot of scum right types gravitate toward the paleo and keto "diets"). so...whatever level is past "full retard" for them.

Posted by: the pair | Apr 12 2020 18:49 utc | 36

@Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 12 2020 17:04 utc | 17

That precisely japan and Netherlands favor this system does not points at tranquility, in both countries the extrem right or has always been or is gaining increasing momentum...

The community values and solidayr feeling of the Netherlands got crystal clear in the last Eurogroup meeting, where they kept alone denying solidarity to theit partners in the EU...

Alexander Duguin has been a sympathizer of the far-right since always and the old hierarchical order.

I agree very much with the Off-Guardian article, some alt-media bloggers or are missing ( exhausted or on yearly long Easter celebrations when there is nowhere to go to do that...) or are not denouncing the obvious.

But, above all, I fear, the blunt fascism will be subtly introduced by those who most play being in the side of the people....beware of those who are hosted and are in close trait by the divine ordered princely wealthy people...During the past weeks, they launched the news about Bill Gates, as IT guru, to see the rate of acceptance for him to introduce the policial state, they saw he was opposed y many, now they launch those who seemed to be amongst ourselves..

After witnessing how certain "citizenry" propose impossing fines to those who do not applaude at 8pm, how some insult those carers who go out with mental patients, and how some scoundrels put a paskine in the entrance of their buiding to advise health workers to keep away from their own homes so as to not "contaminate" them after long extenuating shifts...Those contests of citizenry sound to me like hell on Earth..

I will not live in such a world and will fight it that to the last breath..

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Apr 12 2020 18:53 utc | 37

@ Peter au

Exactly.

@ nemesis

>> In other words, it is the result of westerners not wanting to be ruled by an eastern power, which I would argue, lies at the heart of the western mind. We would rather die and sabotage the globalized order which we would no longer lead than to be ruled by a foreign empire.

That’s the fear Oceania elites tell the sheeple, who, according to available statistics, are treated worse by the R-D shimsham than by the “enemy”.

>> The sooner China realizes this, the sooner it will drop the act of looking to usurp Washington in the old order and just accept that the ship has sailed and they will now be contained in their sphere.

I find it hard to reconcile this paragraph with my perception that Oceania is bearing down on Eurasia and Eastasia, bent on reconquering them and returning them to broken states (for another century of humiliation), to be used and abused like rental property, like they do everywhere else.

Posted by: oglalla | Apr 12 2020 19:06 utc | 38

Covid vs Tuberculosis: Did The Commies Do Something Right?
interesting conjecture here, some might find also interesting!

Posted by: james | Apr 12 2020 19:18 utc | 39

It never ceases to amuse me how emphatically yet obliviously westerners project their own ambitions, motivations, and behavior onto the Chinese. Doubtless they read observations like the post by karlof1 @17 and just dismiss them out of hand.

"The Chinese want to dominate the world! They must because we want to dominate the world. We represent the very definition of normal human behavior, so everyone else must be the same as us, or if not then it is because they are primitives who have not yet ascended to our exceptional levels yet."

Wrong. You are a nation of psychotic freaks. That psychotic freakishness pervades your entire culture and infects every resident of your lands to one degree or another. Some Americans are aware of this psychosis and struggle against its effects within themselves. All of the rest corrupted and psychologically diseased humans who are nothing like normal.

"...a society in which... nobody needs to lock their doors at night..." qtd by karlof1

The diseased scoff at the very notion. The diseased "know" that such a society is impossible because they themselves would take advantage of such a world. Part of the illness of the diseased is that they cannot recognize their own disease and they believe it is normal; universal. They would abuse the trust of all in such an environment, and since they are certain of their own normalcy they "know" that everyone else in the world would also seek to abuse that societal trust.

Furthermore, the diseased see themselves and their culture as the apex of human development. How could primitives, all of whom eat bats and carrion from frightful "wet markets", ever hope to surpass the shining city on the hill? Anyhow, a society of chumps, suckers, and easy marks could never surpass the dog-eat-dog, social Darwinist paradise of capitalism.

But those "chumps and suckers" are surpassing the vicious cruelty of capitalist culture. Their handling of the empire's biological attack is proof of the superiority of the culture they are trying to build, as well as being proof of how close they are to realizing that culture.

China doesn't want to dominate the West. They do not want to "rule over westerners", though westerners, in their psychosis, will invariably interpret China's resistance to western rule as dictating to the West. That's how the disease of exceptionality works.

But Africa and Latin America are indeed the gateways to the new global order. After centuries of brutal exploitation and immiseration by various capitalist empires up to and including the current American one, we are vary likely to see the Global South finally blossom and achieve first world status, and even exceed the old world, with China as a partner. Sadly, psychotic exceptionalists will kill to prevent that happening if they can. The paralysis of the empire due to the covid is an opportunity that the Global South should seize.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 12 2020 19:27 utc | 40

flow plot of where the US CARES act bail-out money is going to (I checked a few nos. - it looks OK ..)

from data is beaut thread on reddit

https://tinyurl.com/tqhkxao

The idea that throwing money at the US’ ‘problem’ will fix it is crazy - like, ha ha, if everyone is ‘bailed out,’ things will continue as before.

-- Naturally the powerful for ex. Big Corps need more money than mopes, another occasion to stiff the poor, but that is another topic. --

When the ‘economy’ shrinks by say 40% (possibly an optimistic estimate in this COV crisis?) that is 40 % less food, goods, services, doctor visits, transport in miles travelled, clothes for children, medecines, maintainance of the electric grid, and so on, though the cut-downs of course swerve wildly around the 40% base-line, particularly when there is no planning to preserve essentials such as food production, treatment, conditioning, transport, refrigeration, distribution to end-point, which can be capillary-like when ppl no longer can travel by car or other means…

It follows that some parts of the ‘economy’ simply collapse and don’t function at all. Which affects other parts, und so weiter. However, alternatives do pop up .. can one be hopeful?

Posted by: Noirette | Apr 12 2020 19:35 utc | 41

Another sensational headline in ZeroHedge Good Friday 12 April 2020

https://www.zerohedge.com/health/explosive-report-wuhan-biolab-captured-bats-caves-traced-covid-19-outbreak-had-us-funding

"Explosive Report: Wuhan Biolab Captured Bats From Caves Traced To COVID-19 Outbreak, Had US Funding"

This time the source: Daily Mail another good source china bashing at its finest is Australia Sky News... Someone from MoA should tell freaking SkyNew STFU, PERIOD!

PS: Mr. b, I'll try posting less and not getting emotional at China bashers

Posted by: JC | Apr 12 2020 19:37 utc | 42

indeed it is surprising that the msm has no articles on the domino effect for some professions.
orchestras and music venus are but one example.

Posted by: Mina | Apr 12 2020 19:45 utc | 43

Here are three articles top be found today at the Defend Democracy website

1/ Concerns the continued refusal of The Netherlands and Germany to end the austerity policies which have condemned millions in southern Europe to poverty. Yesterday this Greek site had an article on the resistance to evictions and foreclosures demanded by the EU powers.
http://www.defenddemocracy.press/the-revolt-of-the-south-or-the-imperative-to-build-a-new-europe/?utm_source=Delphi+Initiative+Newsletter&utm_campaign=527f1c3c2c-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_04_12_01_48&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_cca18be42a-527f1c3c2c-173783113

2/ This talks of the role that the revived popular neighbourhood committees played in defeating the virus in China
http://www.defenddemocracy.press/the-secret-of-chinas-success-neighborhood-committees/?utm_source=Delphi+Initiative+Newsletter&utm_campaign=527f1c3c2c-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_04_12_01_48&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_cca18be42a-527f1c3c2c-173783113

3/ According to this article research has suggested that the basic virus does seem to have originated in the USA or Australia- at least that is my crude reading of the piece.
http://www.defenddemocracy.press/covid-19-genetic-network-analysis-provides-snapshot-of-pandemic-origins/?utm_source=Delphi+Initiative+Newsletter&utm_campaign=527f1c3c2c-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_04_12_01_48&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_cca18be42a-527f1c3c2c-173783113

4/ Once again I recommend the Mike Davis interview for which I gave a link in the Easter thread.

Posted by: bevin | Apr 12 2020 20:20 utc | 44

james@39
I posted a link last week regarding research showing that the BCG vaccine might have had an effect on the spread and mortality of the disease. I'm pretty certain that my daughter in France drew my attention to it.
Or to put it another way, your source seems to be supported by other researchers.
Check out b's links to Sky and novaramedia on the plot against Corbyn-sensational stuff, not much we didn't know but amazing details.

Posted by: bevin | Apr 12 2020 20:28 utc | 45

Very interesting topic raised by the Global Times on Kudlow's economic policy post-COVID-19 for the USA:

China won’t be scared by Kudlow’s proposal

When answering a question about how the US can reduce its reliance on Chinese manufacturing, Kudlow told Fox Business Network Thursday that the US could lure American companies to move back from China with full immediate expensing. "Plant, equipment, intellectual property, structures, renovations - in other words, if we had 100 percent immediate expensing, we should literally pay the moving costs of American companies from China back to the US," he said.

To which the Global Times respond:

First, the proposal to pay for the moving costs is not attractive to US companies at all. If anything, the comprehensive manufacturing costs are much more expensive in the US than in China or in Southeast Asia.

Second, American manufacturers can hardly find enough skilled workers locally if they do move back.

Third, the availability of upstream and downstream supply chains in the US could pose another challenge for US companies moving back home.

Fourth, leaving China, to a certain extent, means companies need to cede China's massive consumer market to their rivals, which is obviously unacceptable.

Fifth, it is also unwise for companies to make such a relocating decision at a time when China has managed to bring the epidemic under control while the coronavirus continues to rage in the US.

Sixth, it is hard for the proposal to become an actual policy as American taxpayers will unlikely support the proposal.

The Global Times then concludes that:

In this sense, Kudlow's proposal seems more like a bluff, indicating that the White House would continue to pursue decoupling from China.

The Global Times is correct. Kudlow's proposal is utopic for one simple reason: it goes against the capitalist system - which is the American (western) way of life.

Kudlow's proposal really is the right-wing side of the MMT coin, and it's pretty straightforward: the private sector knows what is good for society, but they can only make the move if profitability is high enough. The State can then accelerate the process by covering for the private sector's losses, making a low profitable situation (or even a loss situation) into a profitable enough situation so that the move can happen.

The problem with this logic is that is self-destructs: if you reach a point where you know how much money is enough so the entire productive chain be shifted in time-space in order to reach a certain political goal, then you're already talking about a planned economy.

But it gets worse: Kudlow can even concede that he's talking about planned economy for a single phase, but after that, he would assume, the State will gently give back the keys of the economy to the private sector. The thing is the cost of reallocation are far from being the only costs of maintaining - let alone expanding - manufacturing infrastructure. You could even, theoretically, reinstate industry to the USA, but then all the other costs involved (mentioned by the Global Times) would apply. The cycle would reset, not be eliminated, and in a much worse profit base.

So, the USG would be put in a situation where it would have to be bailing out its own manufacturing 24/7. It would be a planned economy in denial, with all the bad consequences of capitalism without any of its benefits.

Posted by: vk | Apr 12 2020 20:34 utc | 46

Eventhough I almost never watch TV, now, with so much time at home, searched for a good film in the pannel all over these long month of reclusion, to no avail...This, even when previously to the pandemic, there were sometimes excellent films programmed at wee hours which you obviously could not view during your labor week...

There was nothing to see...as if to add to people´s desperation ( especially people who rely mainly on TV to pass their time...) until this afternoon, when they broadcasted "Espartaco"..

Interesting thread on the film:

https://twitter.com/perrafemininja/status/980061321612931072

No, we will not live in a society of black lists and scores....again....

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Apr 12 2020 20:39 utc | 47

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 12 2020 19:27 utc | 40

I always remind myself that there is a lot of truth in that age of culture is related to its intelligence and humanity. Persian/Iranian - 2000+ years, China 4000+ years, Russia ~1000 years - all behaving responsible and mature on international arena. On the other hand, we have embryos like USA of 200+ years and Israel of < 100yrs being on a level of complete immature sociopaths.

Of course, this theory of mine doesn't holds water for some psychopath genocidal cultures eg. like British, Turkish/Otoman empires which are relatively old.

Posted by: Abe | Apr 12 2020 20:42 utc | 48

Regarding Off Guardian- a website that was founded to counter censorship at the Guardian's Comment is Free- has anyone noticed whether they have begun to censor and remove comments? Not having visited the site since the Coronavirus drove out reason there, I have no idea. But I have seen comments elsewhere suggesting that you either agree that the Pandemic is a hoax or you are an agent of the Deep State.
cf the pair @36

Posted by: bevin | Apr 12 2020 20:45 utc | 49

Amongst the current promoters and various switteners of fascsim, there are those who try to hold that it was/is a kind of socialist system and thus try in the forums to disguise it as a system close to workers and people...

Well, read Mussolini, to test that is not true...

https://twitter.com/Mbunleo/status/1248762549174231040

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Apr 12 2020 20:49 utc | 50

Jesus. We are already in huge trouble even with basic items. My Walmart . com "Reorder Your Basics List" has 17 items. Ten are out of stock. These are items I have purchased regularly for years, many of them are "made in USA".

The Walmart home page has lots of pretty pictures about how they are working hard to keep things going, but zero acknowledgement about product shortages, not even a generic feel-good message.

If I can not get common antihistamines like cetirizine I will be in big trouble. Even as a life-long pessimist I am startled at the speed of the collapse. Trump won't have to worry about all those brown people trying to break into the US, once we all try to emigrate to China.

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Apr 12 2020 20:51 utc | 51

Diana Johnstone has penned one of the more thoughtful responses to the hoax/lockdown POV exemplified recently by Off-G:

https://consortiumnews.com/2020/04/10/covid-19-coronavirus-and-civilization/

also, here is the extent of public info regarding the Ft Derrick security breaches last year (might be link repost):

https://wjla.com/news/local/cdc-shut-down-army-germ-lab-health-concerns

"The CDC reported that an individual partially entered a room multiple times without the required respiratory protection while other people in that room were performing procedures with a non-human primate on a necropsy table.

“This deviation from entity procedures resulted in a respiratory occupational exposure to select agent aerosols,” the CDC wrote."

...The CDC went on to specify that a laboratorian who was not wearing appropriate respiratory protection was seen multiple times “partially entering” a room where non-human primates that were infected with [redacted] were “housed in open caging.” They also observed a laboratorian disposing of waste in a biohazardous waste bin without gloves on."

Posted by: jayc | Apr 12 2020 21:01 utc | 52

Chloroquine has been a non-prescription over the counter remedy for most of the planet for more than seventy years. Problems are rare. But it is too dangerous and too tricky for first world MDs to figure out.

There are contraindications and lots of drug interactions. If wholly unfamiliar with the drug figuring out dosages for desperately ill geriatric cases might take some effort. But the notion that this is a dangerous drug or a leap into the unknown is pure horse hockey. It is pure politics. Those supporting such politics are making it very clear which side they are on.

Please do not take this comment as encouragement to eat aquarium cleaner with a spoon.

Posted by: oldhippie | Apr 12 2020 21:12 utc | 53

@ 45 bevin... thanks for additional comment on that theory which i was previously unaware of... that article on the labour insiders is really disgusting... i can't understand the uk people.. they're definitely not straight shooters..

Posted by: james | Apr 12 2020 21:17 utc | 54

who the hell knows what to think about all this?
I just put words together that rhyme after people
like George Webb fill my head with crazy disinfo

I mean, it's just disinfo right? right?!

POEM FOR GEORGE WEBB

green zone phones
blackberry strong
beneath the state
the shadow’s long

bring the sting rays
five gee whiz
sars the vector
have fun, kidz!

Fauci stasi
reich, the fourth
cog the mountain
with Ollie North

burning bushes?
big stone owl?
ghost the towers
throw in the towel

Posted by: lizard | Apr 12 2020 21:26 utc | 55

Forgive me, I always forget that the Chinese are impervious to the desires of money and have not been intoxicated by their ever-increasing market share in the global economy.

Who needs military interventionism when they can slowly grasp what the West used to hold by undercutting western products at every opportunity?

Some in here are forever trying to convince others that they can't believe their eyes.

All I have ever called for is the return of sovereignty the world over. The reemergence of old wisdom that appear hollowed-out but have in fact only been concealed by masters of the NWO. "East" and "West." It will take a lot more than Prez Xi saying dogs aren't livestock anymore to convince me of the similar aspirations of the average American and the Chinaman.

Can someone please explain to me how loving your culture, dying for your culture, and having a preference for your own culture constitutes racism? Are we all supposed to fold when foreign competitors seek absolute control over local, national markets?

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Apr 12 2020 21:45 utc | 56

vk @19

"...Can we put this story to rest?"

No.

There are enough positive outcomes (albeit many anecdotal at this stage)from medical professionals from many countries to warrant it's continued use under certain circumstances. Research by reputable institutions should continue despite the howling of big pharma mouthpieces.

French 'designed to fail' studies should be ignored.

Posted by: ted01 | Apr 12 2020 21:50 utc | 57

Bevin @ 49:

The Off-Guardian coronavirus articles attract so much BTL commenting (most of it done on the spur of the moment by people venting frustration and anger and whatever else annoys them about life in Britain) that if you do try posting a comment, it can get lost and it may not appear in the thread until next day. I do not think there is active censorship there.

I have said quite sharp things about a couple of their posts, so much so that on one occasion the Admin there complained openly in the relevant thread about my opinion - I had expressed irritation as to why it was necessary for outsiders to pore over recent proposed changes to Russia's constitution when they were yet to be put to public referendum, when so many people outside Russia are misinformed about Russian politics due to constamt Western MSM demonisation of the country and its politics - so I do not think Off-Guardian actively censors comment. I do not think Off-G even have the time or resources - you may have noticed Vaska does not particpate much there now. The website host service that supplies Off-Guardian with its platform may be another thing altogether however and may stop some comments from going through depending on what keywords it finds.

If Off-G were to censor people, you may be sure Petra Liverani aka Flaxgirl would disappear from the comments threads in a flash.

Posted by: Jen | Apr 12 2020 21:53 utc | 58

Or read a newspaper. Hard to take anything he says seriously after these gaffes.

Posted by: Noah Way | Apr 12 2020 16:20 utc | 11
+++++++++++++

Is Tooze an economist?
I think he is a generalist and just writes any assignment the LRB give him.

Posted by: Really?? | Apr 12 2020 22:08 utc | 59

Too early to say China is source of COVID-19: Cambridge geneticist

A lot of people online are blaming China for bring about the coronavirus that caused the COVID-19 pandemic across the world.

But the logic behind their blame can be fragile, as it's scientifically incorrect to assume China is the source just because the first published genome sequence of the virus was uploaded from the country.

"If, for example, someone from Scotland put [the genomes] in the database first, then obviously, Scotland will look like the origin. That is not a valid approach," said Peter Forster, a geneticist from Cambridge who recently published a paper on Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS) in the U.S. mapping out the early mutations of the deadly coronavirus.

Also:

According to the calculation of Forster and his team, the first human infection of the SARS-CoV-2 took place between September 13 and December 7 in 2019.

If dr. Forster's team calculation is correct, then the timing coincides with the unusually strong pneumonia season that affected Italy, and, most likely, the entire North Atlantic nations November-December 2019.

It would also explain why South Korea and Japan (and Australia and New Zealand) were less affected than Western Europe and the USA (even though both parts are capitalist): the SARS CoV-2 could well be mutated in its pandemic form in the USA (probably, through one of its Navy troops), and spread to Western Europe and then Wuhan (where there was a big military game). It then went from China to South Korea and Japan.

Posted by: vk | Apr 12 2020 22:09 utc | 60

the pair @36

"also noticed that off-guardian has gone full retard on the issue...."

I actually find them quite rational compared to the relentless bombardment of fear being generated by the corporate media.

The OffGuardian articles just offer a different viewpoint/analysis to the MSM.
People will choose to believe in whatever makes them fell safer & more comfortable.

One thing that puzzles me is that so many of the commentators at MOA willing accept what the NYP/Washington Post/CNN/NBC etc write about the corona virus, but reject what these same organs report about Syria/Iran/Venezuela etc.

Posted by: ted01 | Apr 12 2020 22:12 utc | 61

@ 60 ted01.. it would puzzle me too if what you say in your last comment was true!

Posted by: james | Apr 12 2020 22:14 utc | 62

ted01 60

You types are careful to omit what China and Russia are saying about the virus. A self delusion type thing to pretend the virus does not exist due to fear of more government control.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 12 2020 22:22 utc | 63

@ Posted by: ted01 | Apr 12 2020 21:50 utc | 56

The link I posted literally mentioned the French hospital lost four patients with heart attacks from hydroxycloroquine in a single day, and almost lost two others by the same reason the previous day.

So, you wanna risk having a heart attack (and, therefore, permanent heart damage) over a 18% max chance of dying (if you're 80 years old or more) from COVID-19? Doesn't seem like a fair trade to me.

--//--

@ Posted by: Really?? | Apr 12 2020 22:08 utc | 58

Yes, Tooze is graduated in economics (which makes him an economist).

He's not the worst, but he's still a bourgeois economist. Not scientific.

--//--

@ Posted by: oldhippie | Apr 12 2020 21:12 utc | 52

Hydroxycloroquine is a safe drug - as long as taken in a safe dose.

But taking a safe dose will never be the case when treating for COVID-19, as trials indicate it is only effective against the disease when administered on dosages that far surpass the safe levels.

At the dosages required, hydroxycloroquine is basically chemotherapy.

--//--

@ Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 12 2020 19:27 utc | 40

By approaching geopolitics on cultural/racial terms, the far-right is missing the point.

As a communist, I don't care about Chinese or Russian cultures. To me, their histories could well have begun at the end of the 20th Century. The fact that they were the successful cases of communist revolutions didn't impel me to try to learn Chinese and Russian, or to try Chinese and Russian culinaries. I never cared, and couldn't care less about it. The only thing that matters to me is their political-economic experiments in this time-frame.

You see, human beings have this capacity called "abstraction". We can separate form from substance.

The far-right are just the capitalist class' cannon fodder and recruiters. They intentionally associate the workers' way of life with the survival of the system. In reality, human beings adopt, modify and discard their cultural habits constantly: culture is only culture when it is killing itself and rebirthing itself non-stop. Extinction is as natural for culture as its creation; a new culture can only be born at the cost of the extermination of one of more cultures.

Posted by: vk | Apr 12 2020 22:25 utc | 64

Trump won't have to worry about all those brown people trying to break into the US, once we all try to emigrate to China.

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Apr 12 2020 20:51 utc | 51

It's already happening. Britons evacuated from Wuhan regret coming home.

Posted by: Laguerre | Apr 12 2020 22:31 utc | 65

ben @ 28 – A more reliable link for the Spiro Skouras interview with Prof. Francis Boyle (rather than YouTube)

Posted by: norecovery | Apr 12 2020 22:33 utc | 66

55 <== See what I mean? "Exceptionals" projecting their own psychological damage onto others as if it is normal for humans to be that way.

You cannot heal these people. You can only hope that as they continue to self-destruct that they don't inflict so much collateral damage on the world.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 12 2020 22:43 utc | 67

Off-Gaurdian has gone off-the-rails with Covid, they called it wrong at the start and instead of doing what B does (changing opinion when the facts change) has sadly doubled and tripled down on its position

Posted by: Chairman Meow | Apr 12 2020 22:44 utc | 68

bevin 44

Re the defend democracy piece. It is based on these two studies which it links to.

https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/covid-19-genetic-network-analysis-provides-snapshot-of-pandemic-origins
https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/04/07/2004999117

This is the basics of the DD piece "Cambridge University published a paper, according to which the new coronavirus type A is the root cause of the virus outbreak, and the type A appeared in the United States and Australia. The virus that appeared in Wuhan belongs to the type B, which is derived from the type A mutation."

The DD piece must think that no one will read the linked pieces....
This is the ancestry tracing as per the study.
https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/04/07/2004999117

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 12 2020 22:56 utc | 69

Thanks to those who took the time to respond to those items by Escobar that I provided.

I can't recall who proposed this comparison--there are two types of nation-states: The Nurturing State and the Parasitic State. The Nurturing State does as its name suggests--it nurtures its citizenry by ensuring all have the fundamental basics for living and enriching the mind, body and soul. The Parasitic State preys on its citizenry for the benefit of its controlling elite and cons it via cradle-to-grave propaganda that the oppressive burdens are normal and there's no other alternative. During the pandemic, Nurturing States have done as much as possible to protect their citizens, while Parasitic States only take action when it becomes clear that not doing so threatens the Elite, and the benefits announced for its citizens it then does the utmost to delay and further limit, making certain the burden on citizens becomes even greater. And as we've seen, some nations fall in-between.

IMO, we've seen enough of how the worlds's nations have responded to categorize them via the above formula in order to inform us what sort of nation we reside within and where we might want to go if our nation's parasitic--I'm assuming no sane or moral individual would want to live in a parasitic nation unless they're part of the Elite. We'll soon see how sophisticated people are and how well they're informed, for this is designed to be simple enough for e 3rd grade student of about 9 years of age to comprehend.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 12 2020 23:01 utc | 70

vk @63

It sure would be nice if culture and habits changed instantaneously to reflect material conditions rather than lagging generations behind. It would be so much easier for humanity to advance if it were not possible for those who control communication and education resources to manage people's perceptions of reality.

Unfortunately culture does not automatically follow material conditions, and perception manipulation is effective in crippling consciousness.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 12 2020 23:06 utc | 71

vk@63

Doses used for Covid are similar to doses used for malaria prophylaxis. Literally billions have used these dosages safely without medical supervision. You are just making stuff up to suit your agenda.

Posted by: oldhippie | Apr 12 2020 23:24 utc | 72

ben # 28 and norecovery #65

Author of the US Biowarfare Act, Professor Francis Boyle uncovers four separate studies which he claims confirm as ‘smoking gun’ evidence the Wuhan Coronavirus known as COVID19 was in fact weaponized.

youtube

bitchute

Thank you both for that. I read the linked 2010 paper on enhanced function research that was produced as a collaboration between Australia, China and USA.

As Professor Boyle laments - a lack of ethical consideration bedevils some research science and curses the people.

Good to know the names in the remote chance there is a case brought before the International Criminal Court. Not holding my breath though in this case.

During the 1960's there was an independent Bertrand Russel War Crimes Tribunal established to examine the Vietnam War activities of ALL the participants. We could do with a similar, credible hosted event now.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 12 2020 23:31 utc | 73

Another shot at a possibly proper covid treatment. Iron released from the hemoglobin is causing the lung damage. Hydroxychloroquine apparently interferes with this process.

The past 48 hours or so have seen a huge revelation: COVID-19 causes prolonged and progressive hypoxia (starving your body of oxygen) by binding to the heme groups in hemoglobin in your red blood cells. People are simply de saturating (losing O2 in their blood), and that’s what eventually leads to organ failures that kill them, not any form of ARDS or pneumonia.

All the damage to the lungs you see in CT scans are from the release of oxidative iron from the hemes, this overwhelms the natural defenses against pulmonary oxidative stress and causes that nice, always-bilateral ground glass opacity in the lungs. Patients returning for re-hospitalization days or weeks after recovery suffering from apparent delayed post-hypoxic leukoencephalopathy strengthen the notion COVID-19 patients are suffering from hypoxia despite no signs of respiratory ‘tire out’ or fatigue....

https://web.archive.org/web/20200405061401/https://medium.com/@agaiziunas/covid-19-had-us-all-fooled-but-now-we-might-have-finally-found-its-secret-91182386efcb">https://medium.com/@agaiziunas/covid-19-had-us-all-fooled-but-now-we-might-have-finally-found-its-secret-91182386efcb">https://web.archive.org/web/20200405061401/https://medium.com/@agaiziunas/covid-19-had-us-all-fooled-but-now-we-might-have-finally-found-its-secret-91182386efcb

Do not know who this guy is nor am I an expert but it does make some sense. Medium suspended the account instantly. Medium must have been crawled by the wayback machine just prior.

Posted by: dltravers | Apr 12 2020 23:41 utc | 74

Try again..

Another shot at a possibly proper covid treatment. Iron released from the hemoglobin is causing the lung damage. Hydroxychloroquine apparently interferes with this process.

The past 48 hours or so have seen a huge revelation: COVID-19 causes prolonged and progressive hypoxia (starving your body of oxygen) by binding to the heme groups in hemoglobin in your red blood cells. People are simply de saturating (losing O2 in their blood), and that’s what eventually leads to organ failures that kill them, not any form of ARDS or pneumonia.

All the damage to the lungs you see in CT scans are from the release of oxidative iron from the hemes, this overwhelms the natural defenses against pulmonary oxidative stress and causes that nice, always-bilateral ground glass opacity in the lungs. Patients returning for re-hospitalization days or weeks after recovery suffering from apparent delayed post-hypoxic leukoencephalopathy strengthen the notion COVID-19 patients are suffering from hypoxia despite no signs of respiratory ‘tire out’ or fatigue....

https://web.archive.org/web/20200405061401/https://medium.com/@agaiziunas/covid-19-had-us-all-fooled-but-now-we-might-have-finally-found-its-secret-91182386efcb">https://medium.com/@agaiziunas/covid-19-had-us-all-fooled-but-now-we-might-have-finally-found-its-secret-91182386efcb">https://web.archive.org/web/20200405061401/https://medium.com/@agaiziunas/covid-19-had-us-all-fooled-but-now-we-might-have-finally-found-its-secret-91182386efcb

Do not know who this guy is nor am I an expert but it does make some sense. Medium suspended the account instantly. Medium must have been crawled by the wayback machine just prior.

Posted by: dltravers | Apr 12 2020 23:43 utc | 75

Sorry about that, the site does not accept links from the wayback machine

Posted by: dltravers | Apr 12 2020 23:44 utc | 76

I ran across this short video this morning and found it provocative: I’m curious about what reaction it might get here?

. . .
Posted by: John Sanguinetti | Apr 12 2020 18:06 utc | 27
++++++++++
To avoid the long URL, do a search for the title of the video:
"COVID19: What is Really Going on?"

Excellent, especially the longer statement at the end by a German citizen.

Posted by: Really?? | Apr 12 2020 23:52 utc | 77

Gruff @ 40
"The diseased scoff at the very notion. The diseased "know" that such a society is impossible because they themselves would take advantage of such a world. Part of the illness of the diseased is that they cannot recognize their own disease and they believe it is normal; universal. They would abuse the trust of all in such an environment, and since they are certain of their own normalcy they "know" that everyone else in the world would also seek to abuse that societal trust."
++++++++++++++++

Yes, it's called projection, and it is one of the cornerstone features of the narcissitic psychopath.

Posted by: Really?? | Apr 13 2020 0:08 utc | 78

Tiny percentage of UK “Covid-19” deaths had no underlying causes: (much) less than 1000 have died of Covid-19?

Posted by: Yahido | Apr 13 2020 0:13 utc | 79

Peter AU1 @62

How does this "...I actually find them quite rational compared to the relentless bombardment of fear being generated by the corporate media."

become this "...A self delusion type thing to pretend the virus does not exist due to fear of more government control."

Def. Rational - based on or in accordance with reason or logic.

I made no comment on the truth/veracity of their articles. They maybe using faulty reasoning & false logic but it is 'rational' compared to "relentless bombardment of fear being generated by the corporate media."
Of course 'rational reasoning' can be very dangerous when used on the feeble minded.

"...You types are careful to omit what China and Russia are saying about the virus." - I am not carefully omitting anything. I made a comment contrasting the reporting style of the OffGuardian compared to the corporate media.

Unless you speak Chinese/Russian & read original transcripts/articles/scientific papers, how do you know that the Washington Post/CNN etc are accurately reporting what is in the original language articles.

These corporate media entities have a history of distorting, inserting bias & outright lying about Russia & China - they will spin anything they can to fit their agenda.
Do you honestly think that the Washington Post is going to print an article showing China/Russia in a favourable light to the detriment of the US?
Maybe if it suits the Trump bashing? (Disclaimer - personal opinion Trump is is a steaming pile of dogshit).

What about the English language China/Russia based media? What barrow are they pushing? Media is all about influence & manipulation. They have all got an agenda.

If you think that we are being told the truth about this corona virus pandemic you are sorely deluded.

Question everything. Critical thinking.
But as I said previously "People will choose to believe in whatever makes them feel safer & more comfortable."

Disclaimer: The corona virus exists. The corona virus is extremely virulent & more severe than the 'flu'. The corona virus kills indiscriminately, mainly the elderly but not confined to the elderly. There are more things we don't know about the corona virus than the things we know.

Posted by: ted01 | Apr 13 2020 0:16 utc | 80

. But I have seen comments elsewhere suggesting that you either agree that the Pandemic is a hoax or you are an agent of the Deep State.
cf the pair @36

Posted by: bevin | Apr 12 2020 20:45 utc | 49
++++++++++++++

well, I don't agree with your characterization. In fact, I am coming to see the deployment of the word "hoax" as similar to that of the phrase "conspiracy theory." It looks like a deliberate way to discredit andn distort what a person (or site) says without looking at the actual arguments.

I recently read the current material at OG regarding what the writer, Catte, regards at limited hangouts in the alternative press. It does bother me that they make these accusations without naming names. However, I cannot disagree that many so-called leftists seem to be as eager to accept the MSM covid narrative (in particular the questionable reporting of death figures, the fear mongering, and the quick acceptance of authoritarian measures) as they were to accept the Russiagate nonsense. So absent the naming of names the current OG analysis is of little use to actual users of various alternative news websites.

However, equating this analysis or any other criticism of how the MSM are reporting on various aspects of the so-called pandemic with calling the situation a hoax is IMO either an act of bad faith or an act showing low intelligence. (Oh, does "co-called" mean I am saying it it is a hoax? No. It means that I think there are political agendas in declaring a "pandemic," a thought not original with me). I don't know what the other options are. Since I generally respect the thoughts of Bevin, and certainly his moderate tone, I'll leave it to him/her to explain why he/she says that OG is calling the pandemic a hoax. Perhaps I have missed the hoax labeling at OG.

I do recommend to bevin the video linked earlier, "Covid19: What Is Really Going On?"
I don't think the word "hoax" is used by any of those who are quoted and shown in that video as they express their grave reservations concerning the unscientific way figures relating to the illness are being reported and the dangerous actions now being taken that amount to the imposition of medical martial law.

In short, IMO accusing critics of saying the corona virus is a "hoax" when they have said no such thing but are actually expressing valid criticisms of aspects of the larger social, media, and political response reflects poorly on the person using that word and make me question that person's motives.

Posted by: Really?? | Apr 13 2020 0:41 utc | 81

@ 79 ted01... well you actually said this - "One thing that puzzles me is that so many of the commentators at MOA willing accept what the NYP/Washington Post/CNN/NBC etc write about the corona virus, but reject what these same organs report about Syria/Iran/Venezuela etc."

it was a comment on your view of many of the commentatorst at MOA.. and it is really quite wrong..it doesn't look like you want to own up to this generalization either..

Posted by: james | Apr 13 2020 0:42 utc | 82

vk:
@ Posted by: oldhippie | Apr 12 2020 21:12 utc | 52

Hydroxycloroquine is a safe drug - as long as taken in a safe dose.

But taking a safe dose will never be the case when treating for COVID-19, as trials indicate it is only effective against the disease when administered on dosages that far surpass the safe levels.

At the dosages required, hydroxycloroquine is basically chemotherapy.
++++++++++
So? A lot of people choose chemotherapy. A lot of doctors seem to know how to wield this powerful tool. Sounds like maybe the same goes for HC. Are you a physician?

Posted by: Really?? | Apr 13 2020 0:58 utc | 83

ted01 79 "Unless you speak Chinese/Russian & read original transcripts/articles/scientific papers, how do you know that the Washington Post/CNN etc are accurately reporting what is in the original language articles."

Why the would anyone read western msm to see what Russia and China are doing. They have English language news plus there is machine translate.
The problem I saw in your post that I replied to is whoever believes the coronavirus threat is real only gets their information from US MSM.
It also points to a blind unthinking belief that everything and anything western MSM prints is wrong and the opposite to what they print is true.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 13 2020 0:58 utc | 84

karlof1 @ 69

"IMO, we've seen enough of how the worlds's nations have responded to categorize them via the above formula in order to inform us what sort of nation we reside within and where we might want to go"

+++++++++++++
Great idea, but how are people actually supposed to go to a different country? In which nation-state do you live? Which one to you propose to move to? How do you propose to do this? A few people whose ancestors' native lands have a right of return might be able to swing it, but very few others. Perhaps a few young people who have skills that are internationallyi marketable. But for most I think it is pretty hard to swing changing countries/natioalities. Especially now, in the post-covid world. Bear in mind that if you are a US citizen, Uncle Sam will pursue you to your grave via the IRS unless and until you become a citizen of another country.

Posted by: Really?? | Apr 13 2020 1:10 utc | 85

Peter AU1 #68

The DD piece must think that no one will read the linked pieces....
This is the ancestry tracing as per the study.

https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/04/07/2004999117

Thank your looking at that and posting it.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 13 2020 1:10 utc | 86

Unfortunately culture does not automatically follow material conditions, and perception manipulation is effective in crippling consciousness.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 12 2020 23:06 utc | 70
+++++++++++

It is also quite possible that a person's cultural traditions are a major bulwark AGAINST perception manipulation.

I have always found it curious that cultural traditions are lauded when they belong to the elite and go back 400 years in a traceable fashion such as large manor houses with portraits on the walls of illustrious antecedents and rose gardens that were planted in the 18th cent.

For the rest, un-elite, their cultural traditions are framed as negative baggage that they should be willing to deny and jettison on a dime whenever it suit their supposed betters' agendas to supply them with a different "culture."

Posted by: Really?? | Apr 13 2020 1:14 utc | 87

james @81

Of course it is a generalization - that is self evident from the way I phrased it.My opinion.

Your opinion "...and it is really quite wrong..." So you don't agree - what do you base that on - a feeling? rigorous peer reviewed research? Or just a generalization.

Posted by: ted01 | Apr 13 2020 1:25 utc | 88

Worthwhile cause in support of palestinian children.

https://israelpalestinenews.org/american-zionists-choose-lies-over-children/

https://nwttac.dci-palestine.org/petition_citizen_cosponsor_hr2407

Posted by: jared | Apr 13 2020 1:29 utc | 89

Peter AU1 @83

Did you actually read what I wrote?

"...What about the English language China/Russia based media? What barrow are they pushing? Media is all about influence & manipulation. They have all got an agenda."

Maybe I should have added 'machine translate'.

The problem I see with you is that you jump on any post that slightly deviates from the your orthodoxy.
Any slight questioning of the narrative is pounced on with shrill cries of 'denialist'.

You don't even bother to read the posts correctly.

I think we all know that you are fully on board with prevailing narrative - good for you.

For myself I will continue to question.
If it makes you uncomfortable so be it.

Disclaimer: The corona virus exists. The corona virus is extremely virulent & more severe than the 'flu'. The corona virus kills indiscriminately, mainly the elderly but not confined to the elderly. There are more things we don't know about the corona virus than the things we know.

Posted by: ted01 | Apr 13 2020 1:36 utc | 90

REally @ 86.
PS. OT, perhaps, but it is to Jackie (then) Kennedy's credit that her goal in renovating the White House was to transform it into that "traditional manor house" belonging to all citizens, in which all of the portraits, fine furniture, antique musical instruments, etc. were part of *their*, the citizens' and the country's traditions. Perhaps because she came from a family well up on the status ladder (although not, actually, terribly rich), she understood the importance of tangible cultural traditions.

Plenty of arguments can be made against such a viewpoint, but I'll leave it at that.

Posted by: Really?? | Apr 13 2020 1:39 utc | 91

Death toll Australia - 59 (12/04/2020)

The Common Denominator

Unpalatable (for some), but nevertheless.....

• 78-year-old Diamond Princess passenger James Kwan died in Perth
• a 95-year-old female resident of Sydney’s Dorothy Henderson Lodge died
• an 82-year-old male Dorothy Henderson Lodge resident died
• a 90-year-old female Dorothy Henderson Lodge resident died
• a 77-year-old woman died in a Sydney hospital after arriving from Queensland
• an 86-year-old man from Sydney died
• an 81-year-old woman died after having close contact with a confirmed case at Ryde Hospital
• a 77-year-old woman who had been rushed to hospital off the Ruby Princess died in Sydney
• 68-year-old Voyager of the Seas passenger Garry Kirstenfeldt died in Toowoomba
• three men in their 70s died at Victorian hospitals
• 73-year-old Celebrity Solstice passenger Ray Daniels died in Perth
• a 91-year-old female Dorothy Henderson Lodge resident died
• a 75-year-old Ruby Princess passenger died at Caboolture hospital north of Brisbane
• a man in his 80s died at a Melbourne hospital
• a Ruby Princess passenger in her 80s died at North-West Regional Hospital in Tasmania
• a woman in her 80s who acquired the disease overseas died at Canberra Hospital
• a Ruby Princess passenger in his 80s died at Royal Hobart Hospital
• a 95-year-old female Dorothy Henderson Lodge resident died
• 67-year-old Ruby Princess passenger Janet Lieben died at Orange Base Hospital
• a woman in her 60s died at a Victorian hospital
• a woman in her 70s died at a Victorian hospital
• an 85-year-old male Ruby Princess passenger died at Darling Downs Hospital in Toowoomba
• 82-year-old Mike, father-in-law of Labor MP Ged Kearney, died at Canberra Hospital
• a 91-year-old male Ruby Princess passenger died at Port Macquarie Base Hospital
• a 76-year-old male Ruby Princess passenger died at Westmead Hospital
• an 80-year-old male Ruby Princess passenger died at Westmead Hospital
• a 61-year-old man died at Hornsby Hospital
• a 78-year-old Ruby Princess passenger died at The Prince Charles Hospital in Brisbane
• an 86-year-old male Opal Care Bankstown resident died at Liverpool Hospital
• an 85-year-old man who was a close contact of a confirmed case died at Liverpool Hospital
• a man in his 50s died at a Victorian hospital, the youngest death so far
• a Victorian woman in her 80s died at home
• an 84-year-old male Ruby Princess passenger died at Royal Perth Hospital
• a 90-year-old male Dorothy Henderson Lodge Resident died
• an 87-year-old female Ruby Princess passenger died in NSW
• a 90-year-old male Opal Care Bankstown resident died at Liverpool Hospital
• Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews announced an 11th person had died in the state
• 75-year-old Frank Ferraro died at Royal Adelaide Hospital after acquiring COVID-19 interstate
• a Ruby Princess passenger in his 80s died at North-West Regional Hospital in Tasmania
• an Artania passenger in his 70s died at Joondalup Health Campus in Perth
• a woman in her 70s who had travelled overseas died at Royal Perth Hospital
• a 62-year-old female Ruby Princess passenger died at Royal Adelaide Hospital
• a Victorian woman in her 80s died at hospital, the state’s 12th victim
• a 76-year-old man died at the Royal Adelaide Hospital
• a Victorian man in his 80s died at hospital
• a 69-year-old man died at John Hunter Hospital in Newcastle
• an elderly man died at the Northwest Hospital in Tasmania
an 82-year-old man died in Sydney’s Royal Prince Alfred Hospital after contracting the virus
an elderly woman in her 70s died at Northwest Regional Hospital in Tasmania, the state’s fifth death
a former Ruby Princess passenger, a 74-year-old man, died in Royal Adelaide Hospital

Make of this what you will.

Disclaimer: The corona virus exists. The corona virus is extremely virulent & more severe than the 'flu'. The corona virus kills indiscriminately, mainly the elderly but not confined to the elderly. There are more things we don't know about the corona virus than the things we know.

Posted by: ted01 | Apr 13 2020 1:47 utc | 92

@ Posted by: oldhippie | Apr 12 2020 23:24 utc | 71

"billions"? Maybe people are self-medicating with hydroxycloroquine, but definitely not for COVID-19 then.

The studies (the very few that exist) all suggest the necessary dosage surpass by many orders of magnitude the maximum recommended for both malaria and lupus treatment (the two diseases the drug is authorized to treat).

--//--

@ Posted by: Really?? | Apr 13 2020 0:58 utc | 82

So, you're comparing cancer with a disease that probably has a 1% mortality rate?

Posted by: vk | Apr 13 2020 1:52 utc | 93

dltravers @ 74

My summaries related to the hemoglobin issue:

pogohere 235

Posted by: pogohere | Apr 13 2020 1:53 utc | 94

This from the earlier linked study on the ancestry of the corona virus.

"In the T-allele subcluster, four Chinese individuals (from the southern coastal Chinese province of Guangdong) carry the ancestral genome, while three Japanese and two American patients differ from it by a number of mutations. These American patients are reported to have had a history of residence in the presumed source of the outbreak in Wuhan. The C-allele subcluster sports relatively long mutational branches and includes five individuals from Wuhan, two of which are represented in the ancestral node, and eight other East Asians from China and adjacent countries."

By this, it looks as though the earliest strain was at Guangdong with the cases at Wuhan being descended from the Guangdong strain. If I am reading this right, the lower large yellow circle is the Guangdong cases, then the next circle up marked 'A' is the Wuhan cases.
https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/early/2020/04/07/2004999117/F1.large.jpg

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 13 2020 1:54 utc | 95

@87 ted01... it is a cheap shot at the moa readship.. that is how i read it... it is too subjective to warrant a response, so i am giving you a different one..

Posted by: james | Apr 13 2020 2:08 utc | 96

and it is dead wrong with regard to me.. cheers..

Posted by: james | Apr 13 2020 2:11 utc | 97

james @ 95

Enjoy your Easter.
Cheers

Posted by: ted01 | Apr 13 2020 2:20 utc | 98

@86 Why the obsession with 'the elite'? Going down to the local tavern to quoff ale with ones fellows has been an English cultural tradition for a couple thousand years. I imagine sitting round a fire munching wichety grubs counts as a cultural tradition in parts of Australia.

Posted by: dh | Apr 13 2020 2:27 utc | 99

re Posted by: james | Apr 13 2020 2:08 utc | 95
I wouldn't worry about poor little teddy boy's weak-arsed attempt to bustle about here too much. I reckon that judging by his posts the majority of which are negative towards the personas of other commenters, which is a sure sign of a type who resides under a bridge.
Poor wee teddy is all locked down in some particularly slimy part of oz & can no longer try his small-dicked bullying act on actual humans, so has to foist it on a blog he has discovered which prefers to let people speak their minds without censorship. We all know that not feeding such types is the best response & I say that acknowledging I have indulged the slug too much meself.

Posted by: A User | Apr 13 2020 2:29 utc | 100