Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 29, 2020

Some Covid-19 Links

Medical doctors are not well trained in statistics. When personal financial interest are involved they ignore even its most basic rules.

California doctors with dubious COVID conclusions debunked - Pasadena Star

Experts demolish studies suggesting COVID-19 is no worse than flu - Ars Technica

This is somewhat similar to the calculation I made here:

Antibody tests support what’s been obvious: Covid-19 is much more lethal than the flu - Washington Post

A really good piece for debunking the various Coronavirus conspiracy claims:

Bill de Blasio Has Had It With Hasidic Jews - Occidental Dissident

The Plandemic is the dumbest conspiracy theory of all time.

How many people are involved in pulling off the conspiracy? Every government on earth including sworn enemies like Iran and Saudi Arabia are part of the plot. Everyone who has been infected by the virus, those who died from from it and their families are part of the conspiracy. The health care system of every country on earth down to the local level – hospital administrators, doctors, nurses, medics – are part of the plot. County coroners are part of the conspiracy. The only people who know the TRUTH are a bunch of internet cranks who think everything that ever happens in the world is a conspiracy
THEY wanted the virus to disproportionately kill Hasidic Jews, Hispanics and blacks.

SARS-CoV-2 is a bioweapon which escaped from the lab in Wuhan but fortunately it is just the flu so it really isn’t that bad.

The WHO is conspiring with Bill Gates by rejecting immunity passports.

The WHO is covering up the fact that the virus is “just the flu.” It failed to notify the world early enough that we were due for a normal flu season.

The real threat isn’t the virus that has killed 59,000 Americans. It is a nonexistent vaccine for it.

5G is causing all the deaths from the coronavirus which is why South Korea has been devastated by 246 coronavirus deaths.

The way this virus works is really curious. We still miss the most basic understanding of it.

How does coronavirus kill? Clinicians trace a ferocious rampage through the body, from brain to toes

A personal report from the frontline. Some patients deteriorate extremely fast.

The Pandemic-Era Emergency Dep’t: Weirder, Wilder & Emptier Than Ever - Matt Bivens

Lots of news about potential vaccines going into trial. But most of them, if not all, will likely fail.

Why it’ll still be a long time before we get a coronavirus vaccine - New Scientist
Trials of experimental coronavirus vaccines are already under way, but it’s still likely to be years before one is ready and vaccination may not even be possible

More media now have 'excess death' tracking graphics.

Coronavirus tracked: the latest figures as the pandemic spreads | Free to read - Financial Times
Tracking covid-19 excess deaths across countries - Economist

Use the dropboxes and buttons below the graphics to play with the data.

An interactive visualization of the exponential spread of COVID-19 - 91-DIVOC

Similar pieces will be written about other countries.

Many failures combined to unleash death on Italy’s Lombardy - AP


Epidemiologists now say the virus had been circulating widely in Lombardy since early January, if not before.


Unions and mayors of some of Lombardy’s hardest hit cities now say the country’s main industrial lobby group, Confindustria, exerted enormous pressure to resist lockdowns and production shutdowns because the economic cost would be too great in a region responsible for 21% of Italy’s GDP.

The Pentagon generals must love the Coronavirus. It will allow them to spend on a new 'threat'.

The dangerous new consensus: blame China - Stephen Kinzer / Boston Globe

As late as the beginning of this year, if an American newspaper’s front page did not have an article denouncing Russia, it was probably only because space was needed for one denouncing Iran. Yet almost overnight, the anti-Russia organ has fallen silent. A newer model has replaced it.

This new Wurlitzer blares a message that is not much different in tone or content from the old one, but with the word “China” replacing “Russia” whenever we identify the source of evil in the world. News outlets spend hours every day denouncing China. No one could have been surprised when a poll taken in March by the Pew Research Center showed that fully two-thirds of Americans now hold negative views of China — more than at any time since Pew began asking the question 15 years ago.

This Is How America and China are Weaponizing the Coronavirus - Mark Perry / National Interest

Posted by b on April 29, 2020 at 16:28 UTC | Permalink

« previous page

bevin @Apr30 23:13

Nice misdirection.

... who is responsible for it. Sensible people should move on ...

We should ignore the pointing of fingers at China to excuse the failure of Western governments?

We should ignore the lawsuits against China, and threats to seize a substantial portion of Chinese assets (Trump talked of $160 billion just from USA) as compensation?

We should ignore the resulting deteriorate of US-China relations?

We should ignore EMPIRE?

The big question that we should be addressing ... is the question of capitalism.

Isn't the big question really one of democracy?

Virtually every developed nation has some form of capitalism. The problem is that a certain elite aka "Deep State" sets national priorities that result in a huge mis-allocation of resources that makes us less safe and less competitive.

Those 'priorities' can be summed up as follows: EMPIRE.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 30 2020 23:41 utc | 201

bevin @214--

Yes, the problem lies with Neoliberal Capitalism, which is a hocus-pocus form of Finance Capitalism whose rise I've been trying to trace along with Hudson to a point between 1865 and 1885. Dr. Hudson's exposed most of it, but its roots lie outside the USA and connect to that era's Outlaw Empire--the British. It's very easy to say Capitalism's the problem, but people want specifics and also need to have their generations of indoctrination upended so they're capable of clear thinking. IMO, Richard Wolff's thin primer Understanding Socialism is perfect for that job, and he's been in great demand to talk about Capitalism's failure during the pandemic. Here's a recent essay he wrote for Raw Story.

But yeah, we need to get the discussion out into the open, into the public mainstream--somehow.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 30 2020 23:53 utc | 202

I will start the discussion the subject of which was suggested by Bevin @ 214:

... For example there is no doubt that old peoples homes-call them what you will- have been slaughterhouses in the past few weeks. There are all sorts of reasons-all non medical- why this has happened and we would do well to discuss what they are. And insist that nothing like it recur in future years ...

I would add that not only are significant COVID-19 outbreak clusters centring around nursing homes and aged care facilities, they have also centred around passenger cruise ships. In Australia there is currently a criminal investigation being undertaken into the actions of Carnival Australia with regard to the decision made by NSW state health authorities to allow passengers to disembark from the Ruby Princess in Sydney in late March even though the results of the tests they had taken were not yet known.

We might ask what do aged care places and passenger cruise ships might have in common. Apart from often being closed systems - residents in aged care places usually don't move about much and may not have access to fresh air, and passengers on certain levels of a cruise ship and many of the crew (especially kitchen staff, cleaners, technical people) may also have limited access to fresh air - what else might favour the circulation of COVID-19 in those environments? We ought to look at airconditioning systems, water supply systems, and the conditions of the people working in nursing homes and cruise ships and how their conditions influence their work and give rise to situations in which they may be transferring viruses and bacteria from one patient or passenger to the next.

These environments are microcosms of capitalist society in action.

Posted by: Jen | May 1 2020 0:06 utc | 203

You really are a total jerk. You have no quarrel with what I suggest- a discussion of capitalism- but you characterise it as misdirection. And then, after your silly little typographical games, you come up with the alternative-from which I am said to misdirecting people- of imperialism.
Between idiots having fun with figures and you leaping around to draw attention to your, rather silly, self, people trying to talk sense here have to pick their way through an obstacle course constructed by egotists and other social casualties.
And this is not to mention either your quackery- prescribing drugs of which you know nothing at all and which are capable of causing fatalities among large numbers of vulnerable people- and your tasteless smears when you are wallowing in the sexual scandals that obsess you.

Posted by: bevin | May 1 2020 0:55 utc | 204

It seems as though Pussy Hats are in order for plenty of posters who have now yielded to full Monty of government bullshit. We live in a country where there is much incentive to call everything but pregnancy as a COVID 19 disease. Hospitals have reckless incentives to categorize patients as that. Even more incentive to shove their poor asses on ventilators. Whereas other ER docs who are treating the disease with Hydroxychlorquine + AZT + Zing are having quantifiable positive results. But let's believe the evil manipulator Fauci and the Mainstream hysteria of outlets like CNN, MSNBC and others who parrot the Gates Fauci dogma. Gates is a killer with his Vaccines. The one he proffers for COVID 19 will be not better than the deadly shit he has fathered in the past.

Posted by: Skip | May 1 2020 1:13 utc | 205

This is close to confirmation that SARS-CoV-2 is a US bio weapon.
"Trump did not mince words at a White House event on Thursday, when asked if he had seen evidence that gave him a “high degree of confidence” the virus came from the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

“Yes, yes I have,” he said, declining to give specifics. “I can’t tell you that. I’m not allowed to tell you that.”"

The great decoupling.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 1 2020 2:00 utc | 206

bevin @May1 0:55

You have no quarrel with what I suggest ...

I think it's pretty clear that I do have a quarrel with it. LOL.

In fact, this is not their first time that I've noted my objection to your directing us to the brick wall of socialist hopium.

We've now seen both Corbyn and Sanders FAIL. They have failed because of a lack of democracy, not because of a surfeit of capitalism. Democracy is hobbled by EMPIRE.

We will never be able to secure economic fairness until/unless we have a working democracy. This is a truth that those who support the EMPIRE (as I believe you do) never want us to see. Hence your misdirection.

prescribing drugs

I don't prescribe drugs. I've made it clear that I'm not a doctor.

But I have noted the smear campaign against the hydroxyCloroquine for treatment and prophylactic - as have many others.

Thanks for reminding us that you are part of that campaign.

tasteless smears

Thanks for reminding everyone that I have disagreed with your support for convicted sex offenders. Along with Jen at moa and most civilized people.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | May 1 2020 2:16 utc | 207

@ james | Apr 30 2020 21:17 utc | 206

As I've said: only a few if any at all, and please re-read comments in respective threads, if necessary.

Numbers it is what this is all about. Pandemic? 225,000 deaths over the course of 4 month, from which a significant number died with Covid-19, but not from Covid-19. 225,000 out of ~34 million deaths to date for 2020 globally. Are you kidding me?
No, it's the 50-60+ folks (I'm one of these but not scared sh*tless) that for the firsts time in their lives realize: Rather sooner than later it is going to end some day no matter what, and this makes them running around like headless chicken.

Posted by: Hmpf | May 1 2020 2:17 utc | 208

Peter AU1 @May1 2:00 The great decoupling.


<> <> <> <> <>

Important to note that Trump/USA isn't saying that China deliberately released the virus, but they are saying that:

  1. It was China's responsibility to contain it (especially if it originated in their lab), and
  2. China deliberately allowed it to spread globally (by not quickly shutting down international travel).


Posted by: Jackrabbit | May 1 2020 2:25 utc | 209

vK at 160, arguing with no one (but he directed his comment toward me), on co-morbities:

The concept of comorbidity is meaningless outside the strict epidemiological and medical context. Abstractly, comorbidity is just a fact of life: everybody is mortal, everybody is subject to factors that makes them closer to death.

And of course we have "strict epidemiological and medical context," the fact that there are specific co-morbidities associated with Covid-19 mortality, and for under-50s without those co-morbities Covid-19 is not dangerous.

Posted by: fairleft | May 1 2020 3:08 utc | 210

Karlof at 201:

He's real idiot. Before your next crazed accusation, do just a bit better research.

Posted by: fairleft | May 1 2020 3:26 utc | 211

I'd like to share with people a little voyage of discovery I went through recently as a lesson against simply accepting "given facts" at face value.

I've been reading many, many posts where the WHO is castigated for:
a) Lavishing praise upon the Chinese efforts in the early weeks of the outbreak while
b) Advocating against imposing limits on air traffic.

Those accusations are all over the Internet, including in the comments section of this blog.

And my initial reaction was to think, well, sure, that praise was a little.... unseemly... coming from an impartial organization. And the reluctance to recommend air traffic restrictions seemed... well... wrong.

Those were my impressions, until I read this article by Vijay Prashad:

In it he boldly asserts that both were the results of policies that were forced upon the WHO by Western countries eager to limit the WHO's authority and to place the preservation of the air transport industry over public health needs.

Hmmmm, interesting. But Prashad did not provide any evidence to back up that assertion.
Hmmmm, I wonder what Mr Google has to say.....

Holy Crap! Prashad is absolutely correct!

"Because of the critical consequences of delayed or non-reporting, WHO CHEPR should create a mechanism to hold accountable countries that try to suppress or delay reporting. Countries that share information quickly should be lauded and supported"

"Similarly, the CHEPR should create protocols to dissuade member states and the private sector from implementing unnecessary restrictions on trade and travel."

"To prevent travel bans, relevant stakeholders, such as the International Air Transport Association and the World Trade Organization, should be engaged prior to the next outbreak."

Jesus H Christ! So what the WHO did in January-March is EXACTLY what Western countries insisted that it should do, and it is now being castigated by the very same countries who insisted that it adopt those policies.

It's funny what you can find out when you have a few hours up your sleeve.....

Don't trust anything that is asserted to be "a given fact" because far too often that "fact" is completely wrong.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | May 1 2020 3:54 utc | 212

It seems we don't know how good the coronavirus test. That depends on the sensitivity, specificity of the test and the prevalence of the disease - and from there using Bayes Equation calculate how good the test is (efficiency). MOA has brought up difficulties with this type of calculation done by these doctors. If we had the sensitivity and specificity of the test we could do our own calculations, and see for ourselves.

Posted by: Antony Manolis | May 1 2020 4:22 utc | 213

Satan @ 229
Wow your a real key board warrior !
Trouble is your not throwing your hat in the ring, who are you ? what are you ? Who funds you ? who do you support ?
I can only judge you by the list of commenters you don’t like, people who spend a lot of time here seeking the truth !!
Right now I got you down as — a govenment paid troll or perhaps a disillusioned Trump supporter.
Put ya flag up the pole if your such a tough guy ?

Posted by: Mark2 | May 1 2020 7:01 utc | 214

Statistics is a tricky thing. You could always make criticisms of any statistical study and its assumptions. The thing about Science is that is how it moves from a handful of study conclusions to a consensus of Peers. The Stanford people openly showed their data work and rationale for how they made calculations to extrapolate their results from 3300 Silicon Valley residents to the whole country. I just looked at one of the debunking detractors and it was just dismissive whining with vague references to Bayes but with no statistical rationale for what statistical laws were violated or attempt to treat the data differently.

This issue will not be better resolved until more studies have been performed and as time permits evolution a perspective on what happened. E.g. We know that the denominator number of deaths data in any study has all kinds of problems with accuracy.

There are other studies, one in New York with a sample of several hundred which are generally in the same conclusion area as the Stanford study. We are in the early stages of this knowledge. Detractors should and will perform their own studies that may confirm or not.

Science isnt a tabloid bitching contest, it is a slow building of consensus (admittedly sometimes with a lot of vehement ¨bitching¨ but properly in Peer reviewed journals) and no-body knows for sure yet what the ultimate conclusions should be.

Also the death to infection ratio is not the full story metric.

Posted by: intp1 | May 1 2020 7:14 utc | 215

cirsium | Apr 30 2020 21:56 utc | 209

Thanks a lot for this contribution! It is still a riddle for me why this Chloroquin thing is so much politicized.
Yes, it has unwanted collateral problems. Look here, but otherwise be a bit careful with this source (the guy is quite dogmatic): - but of course one should not use Chloroquin with in cases of hereditary glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase (G6PD) deficiency.
The guy still takes covid-19 as a relatively harmless flu. Which is wrong, in my opinion. A virus that targets T-helper lymphocytes with a small number of victims is by no means a harmless flu. A harmless flu does not provoke cytokin storms.
On MoA @ krollchem has been the commenter with the most details for the biological aspect of it. If the mechanism that he proposed for the effect of Chloroquin is right (works as a ionophor for zinc) then it should be possible to replace it with quercetin, in case one can get this compound bioavailable|/b> as Prof. Chretien in Canada proposed. As usual: much more research is necessary.

Posted by: Hausmeister | May 1 2020 7:45 utc | 216

So much BS from the trumpists eg for under-50s without those co-morbities(sic) Covid-19 is not dangerous.
Take a google, duck duck go or whatever is yer search poison, for 'child covid 19 death' and you'll turn up many kids killed by covid 19 some with underlying health conditions, some without eg
this 7 week old new born.

As for the other fatuous claim that nobody dies from Covid 19 there is always 'some other cause', the same thing can be said about influenza, after all it isn't the flu which kills people, it is those opportunistic infections which ride on the back of the flu eg the bacterial infections which can cause pneumonia.
It is exactly the same with the covid 19 disease created by the novel coronavirus, probably no-one dies of that per se, what they die of are the infections which take advantage of the weakened state created by novel coronavirus.

However the coronavirus is rather different than influenza (1) It is considerably more infectious and (2) where the influenza virus/es infect cells in a human's throat down to the esophagus, thereby creating top spots for assorted bacterium to congregate, inhabit, and multiply, novel coronavirus rips into the throat & esophagus then goes way past there into the lungs of an infected human, creating a vast surface area for other opportunistic infections to rent a room, root itself senseless & multiply like buggery. All in all, much more territory than the flu can gazump.

Why is it that the teapartyists imagine any normal human possessed of the ability to query & find answers to questions, would lap up such nonsense as they have been spouting about this pandemic?

I don't imagine many have or will, which is why orange moron's polls are in the toilet. Consequently fake suntan is hiding out glued to the fake news for most of his day.

Posted by: A User | May 1 2020 8:05 utc | 217

A User | May 1 2020 8:05 utc | 220

„It is exactly the same with the covid 19 disease created by the novel coronavirus, probably no-one dies of that per se, what they die of are the infections which take advantage of the weakened state created by novel coronavirus.“

Could not be more wrong. There are several studies out now, the first ones from China, that covid-19 infected T-helper lymphocytes. And it is postulated that his causes the cytokin storms that are the main reason for the heavy casualties and the long lasting damages.
So the virus works like a dangerous drug: makes some (!) people drunk and run amok then.

The obvious problem of two opposed filter bubbles in the US that no longer can communicate with each other is older than this virus. Your comment being just one more example for it. No, I do not like Trump.

Posted by: Hausmeister | May 1 2020 8:45 utc | 218

vk Apr 30 2020 12:12 @138

"...You speak of Marxists like they were a cult" - the armchair Marxists on this site behave like a cult.

None of what you have written helps myself & fellow union members negotiate higher pay & better working conditions.

Thanks for your reply confirming your irrelevance.

Posted by: ted01 | May 1 2020 9:45 utc | 219

c1ue Apr 30 2020 18:23 @176

'...Meh. My response was to a commenter, who I understood (rightly or wrongly) was talking about this country (the US)."

- This is what he said "...winter in the northern hemisphere coming..." - he was incorrect in saying winter is coming to the northern hemisphere, but you being the self absorbed American took the 'the northern hemisphere' to mean the US.

"...How is it my responsibility...." - I never said it was your responsibility. You reading comprehension seems to be at the level of a child.

"...Who is starving now (more so than pre-nCOV)?" - I merely pointed to three links highlighting the misery & hunger that is being caused by this lockdown.

Do I expect you to care about any of these people? Have empathy for their plight? No - you Americans only think of yourselves.

Posted by: ted01 | May 1 2020 10:10 utc | 220 . . .,snip> . . .In some more-severe coronavirus infections, the body’s effort to heal itself may be too robust, leading to the destruction of not just virus-infected cells, but healthy tissue, Taubenberger said. Damage to the epithelium lining the trachea and bronchi can result in the loss of protective mucus-producing cells as well as the tiny hairs, or cilia, that sweep dirt and respiratory secretions out of the lungs.

“You have no ability to keep stuff out of the lower respiratory tract,” Taubenberger said. As a result, the lungs are vulnerable to an invasive secondary bacterial infection. Potential culprits include the germs normally harbored in the nose and throat, and the antibiotic-resistant bacteria that thrive in hospitals, especially the moist environments of mechanical ventilators.

Yep a cykotine storm can cause problems for some, but secondary infections via opportunistic bacillus are more common and just as capable of killing.
Not that I have any intention of getting into some boringly arcane bullshit session over this, my point was that contrary to what too many drongos have been claiming on this site, being infected by this coronavirus is a far more lethal payload of vectors for a range of tough to mitigate illnesses than any seasonal influenza.
Find a mirror and shout at that if you have a need to feel like you've impressed the crew of tossers who waste days of their life every week at MoA attempting to be the all-knowing oracle with the definitive last word.
My objective is less driven altho some may say equally compelling, that is to encourage as many humans as possible to recognise we humans have stumbled into a defining moment, one that must be considered objectively, unshackled from the demands of the powerful.
That means avoiding the chaff ,/A> spread from arsehole to breakfast by an elite, who have once again demonstrated that their wontonly worthless existences, make themselves even more prone to miss the signposts & find themselves up shit creek without the proverbial than the rest of us may be.

Posted by: A User | May 1 2020 10:14 utc | 221

a tip for new players - don't try and post on a friday night when you've put yerself outside a certain amount of whiskey.

Balls, bummers 'n bustups, I screwed that badly, hitting post rather than preview, then somehow missing both intro & conclusion while really blowin the html.

Posted by: A User | May 1 2020 10:21 utc | 222

A User | May 1 2020 10:14 utc | 224

Sorry, the Bloomberg material is outdated and the rest of your remarks is too general to enable me to see any of your points. I am interested in collecting knowledge and not in meta discussions about this blog.

Posted by: Hausmeister | May 1 2020 10:37 utc | 223

Peter AU1 | May 1 2020 2:00 utc | 209 ("came from wuhan lab...")

When at the Anoxia Grocery down the road one sees "Idaho potatoes" offered for sale, it means that the delivery truck took the potatoes to Idaho on the way to Anoxia.

Similarly when somebody at the Anoxia Bank and Dynamite Company gets infected it means that the delivery "truck" passed through Wuhan.

My point is that the semantic value "came from" is not equal to "it originated at".

Yes, it's a long way from Ft Detrick to Wuhan, but the use of deceptive language by a famous flim flam fraudster from New York actually suggests to me that he's telling the audience to look at the ringer, the birdie, and not at the action.

Once, however, as you suggest, the flim flam man admits it came from a weapon lab, one might ask wh built industrial germ war infrastructure in 1941 (Merck Report 1946) and began using germ warfare against China 01 January 1952...and when, precisely, did they stop? Is that war over? (no, it's not, not in law and not in reality)

The Clown of Orange is way out of his depth. He just blew the con.

Posted by: Walter | May 1 2020 10:38 utc | 224

"Take a google, duck duck go or whatever is yer search poison, for 'child covid 19 death' and you'll turn up many kids killed by covid 19 some with underlying health conditions, some without eg
this 7 week old new born."
i would be ready to believe you if we could have a stat about how many of them caught it WHILE in hospital (viral charge issue)

Posted by: Mina | May 1 2020 11:34 utc | 225

I did not get an answer for my question (I have zero scientific background, it is a truely naive question) last week:
if you allow only medical staff and police and public transport to go out, don't you make them the only target for the virus?
Since equipments are not available as they would be needed (as in: you change masks etc every few hours), the med staff are sure to be carrying the virus when they go back home and are in public transports. So wouldn't it be less dangerous for them to ask the ppl who feel at risk to stay home and the others to roam freely?

Posted by: Mina | May 1 2020 11:41 utc | 226

Mina | May 1 2020 11:41 utc | 229 The virus is not the reason for lockdown. It's not a hoax, it's quite real, but the lockdown is a strategy to cast blame for the econocrash and prevent public demonstrations, not to say "pitchfork events". The lockdown is a bit of a hoax, though on a practical level often a valid method for individuals, since the natural history of viruses tends to mitigate their danger over time.

For poor people in crowded conditions the lockdown may kill more.

For the better off, well, it's rather pleasant...

Posted by: Walter | May 1 2020 12:12 utc | 227

@Peter AU1 #209
Telying on anything said by Trump as fact is highly risky.

Posted by: c1ue | May 1 2020 12:47 utc | 228

@ted01 #223
I think your agenda is as transparent and as stupid as your tactics.

Posted by: c1ue | May 1 2020 12:48 utc | 229

Hi Walter, thanks, indeed i see it that way too. Many ppl I know who actually support the harshest measures -as in France: you can't go out without a paper saying time you go out for 1 of 3 reasons, pharmacy, dr or supermarket and for just 1 hour each time- claim that the lockdown is the only way to help hospitals and morgues be overwhelmed. This is true somehow, but there are measures that could be implemented with a better collectivist mind that would allow for the ppl who don't enjoy a big flat or their own garden to access to parks and nature.
The French gov has announced things will stay as they are after 11 May for the regions which the highest number of cases. Many ppl, luckily, understand it is a way to avoid demonstrations.
In the meantime, the poor who wake up at 4 to clean offices and hospitals, as well as the train and bus drivers, and of course the med staff, are targets of choice.
Not exactly a good strategy.

Posted by: Mina | May 1 2020 12:50 utc | 230

Doc PA | May 1 2020 12:46 utc | 231

Get informed, please. A flu that attacks like HIV the T-helper lymphocytes in a minor, but unpredictable part of the population and leads to a cytokin storm is not a harmless flu, stupid. Such an evaluation canot be based on playing with numbers of questionable merits.

Posted by: Hausmeister | May 1 2020 12:57 utc | 231

@Russ #188
You said

It sure sounds to me that everyone has said that. Otherwise, why the lockdowns once it's too late?

What you think was said vs what was said is dramatically different.

If you disagree, why not post some links backing up your assertion?

Stop lying please. We all know perfectly well that if the "don't overwhelm the health system" theme ever had any validity, that time has long past since the hospitals now are near empty.

Wow, this one's a doozy even for you.

Let's start with:

1) The lockdowns do work: they do have a reduction effect on nCOV spread, and thus number of people getting hospitalized for nCOV complications.
2) An empty hospital is not the same as a hospital that doesn't do anything.
The supply chain problems with see with masks, ventilators, drug manufacture components, etc are because there isn't enough slack to account for spikes or dips.
Having as close to 100% full hospitals is exactly how you get undercapacity.
So I'm unclear as to why you are complaining that hospitals aren't full: you want undercapacity or you believe that everything should be at 100% capacity, all the time, so that hospital beds won't be available when needed?

The likes of you with your pseudo-"rational" defenses of what is obviously an irrational, stupid system, have no leg to stand on. Any lethal virus would more quickly figure out not to kill its host than the virus of today's political-economic-institutional elites.

You have exhibited extraordinary idiocy in the past - and it hasn't gotten better.

That fact that you don't know shit is quite clear. Only on the Internet is innumeracy and utter lack of self awareness somehow a feature.

This latest rant from you is of a piece with your past rants. A virus has no brain: it doesn't have a plan or even makes conscious decisions - much like you apparently don't.

Neither do viruses have any awareness or memory - which clearly you don't either, because I am far from a defender of the system.

But hey, keep spewing.

Maybe that will stand in for the therapy you obviously need.

Posted by: c1ue | May 1 2020 13:00 utc | 232

@gepay #195
It is always amusing (and saddening) to me to see motive brandished as the only possible evidence of a conspiracy.

You say that Bill Gates, the health care system and the banksters are benefiting from nCOV thus they must be exaggerating it.

Bill Gates isn't financially benefiting from it - so that's wrong.

The health care system is, overall, losing money because of nCOV - so that's also wrong.

Banksters did get bailouts - but they get bailouts no matter what. How is nCOV different?

But most importantly: if you're going to assert financial or other benefit from nCOV as being the cause - you have to look at the overall balance.

Is the health care industry bigger than all of the industries hurt by nCOV? These include: oil/natural gas/energy, airlines, airplane makers, restaurants, department stores, convention centers, hotels, car rental companies, car makers, clothing manufacturers, the list goes on and on and on. Personal spending is down 7.5% in March - literally the biggest drop evah.

Is the health care industry bigger and more powerful than all the industries hurt by this?

Is nCOV something any politician wants to see happen on his/her/their watch?

Posted by: c1ue | May 1 2020 13:09 utc | 233

Interesting interview of Carl Bergstrom - who has criticized many of the (to me) obviously flawed studies. It turns out he has a career specifically aimed at emerging infectious diseases *and* networked misinformation.

Regarding his book title: "Calling Bullshit: The Art of Skepticism in a Data-Driven World"

The idea with bullshit is that it’s trying to appear authoritative and definitive in a way that’s not about communicating accurately and informing a reader, but rather by overwhelming them, persuading them, impressing them. If that’s done without any allegiance to truth, or accuracy, that becomes bullshit.

Regarding the nCOV infection rate in the US

The seroprevalence in the US is a political issue, and so the first thing is to recognize that when anyone is reporting on that stuff, there’s a political context to it. It may even be that some of the research is being done with an implicitly political context, depending on who the funders are or what the orientations and biases of some of the researchers.

Regarding the crap Stanford/Santa Clara study

If you have a test that has a 3% error rate, and the incidence in the population is below 3%, then most of the positives that you get are going to be false positives. And so you’re not going to get a very tight estimate about how many people have it. This has been a real problem with the Santa Clara study. From my read of the paper, their data is actually consistent with nobody being infected. A New York City study on the other hand showed 21% seropositive, so even if there has a 3% error rate, the majority of those positives have to be true positives.

Regarding hydroxychloroquine

One that I think will come along sooner or later is interpreting studies of treatments. We’ve dealt with that a little bit with the hydroxychloroquine business but not in any serious way because the hydroxychloroquine work has been pretty weak and the results have not been so positive.

But there are ongoing tests of a large range of existing drugs. And these studies are actually pretty hard to do. There’s a lot of subtle technical issues: what are you doing for controls? Is there a control arm at all? If not, how do you interpret the data? If there is a control arm, how is it structured? How do you control for the characteristics of the population on whom you’re using the drug or their selection biases in terms of who’s getting the drug?

emphasis mine.

Posted by: c1ue | May 1 2020 13:20 utc | 234

UK mortality study with 16,749 study participants source

No big surprises here:

1) If you are over 50 and you get the severe nCOV, you are in trouble.

For patients who received ward care, 55% were discharged alive, 31% have died and 14% remain in hospital.

Of those admitted to critical care (intensive care/high dependency) 31% were discharged alive, 45% have died and 24% continued to receive care.

Although the people receiving mechanical ventilation were younger than the overall cohort (61 y [IQR 52, 69]), only 20% had been discharged alive by 4th April 2020, 53% have died and 27% are continuing to receive care.

2) Significantly worse results for people with existing serious conditions

3) mortality rates by age grouping

50-69 4.02% mortality (2.88-5.63, p<0.001) 70-79 9.59% mortality (6.89-13.34, p<0.001) 80+ 13.59% mortality (9.79-18.85, p<0.001)

There are under 50 deaths in the breakdowns by age graphs, but not in the table where the above came from.

What was surprising was the ongoing care breakdown: it is a bell curve centered at about 60 vs. the intake graph which was a PERT curve peaked at around 80.

Posted by: c1ue | May 1 2020 13:43 utc | 235

This study says no apparent relationship between temperature and nCOV infection source

Pretty interesting because this study graphs temperature vs. infection rates, broken down by February, March and (early) April.

No apparent relationship between temperature and nCOV rate - dots are evenly spread in all 3 time slots.

Posted by: c1ue | May 1 2020 13:45 utc | 236

It's odd how adamant some here are that there is absolutely, positively no motive anywhere for anyone ever to have first released a pathogen and then leveraged the tsunami of terror propagated by a mockingbird media in order to loot literally trillions of dollars, to vilify geopolitical challengers, to pass further draconian security state legislation, to bail out a failing banking infrastructure, to pave the way for mandatory vaccinations, and to further identify free thinkers from within a herd of clueless cattle.

No motive that I see. Good think c1ue us here pointing out the obvious for all of us.

Posted by: Lester G | May 1 2020 13:49 utc | 237

@ c1ue | May 1 2020 13:20 utc | 238
I am not impressed by Carl Bergstrom. The old story: one Crete tells that all Cretes are lying. This possibility has to be applied to him as well:

„The idea with bullshit is that it’s trying to appear authoritative and definitive in a way that’s not about communicating accurately and informing a reader“

I can only judge one aspect dealt with here:
„One that I think will come along sooner or later is interpreting studies of treatments. We’ve dealt with that a little bit with the hydroxychloroquine business but not in any serious way because the hydroxychloroquine work has been pretty weak and the results have not been so positive.“
His judgement is misleading. Apparently he did not really look into the case further. This medicament fights the virus, nothing else. This is tricky in a case when one specific property of this virus is the fact that it appears with no symptoms at the beginning, for quite some time. Nobody applies any medicament just based on suspicion. And in this case when symptoms appear the virus has done its work for quite an amount for quite some time. The application of the medicament starts at a suboptimal late time, secondary problems with bacteries etc. may prevail then. Or even with the results of a cytokin storm. The same trouble appears with any other anti-virus medicament with covid-19. In the meantime many thousands of people have been treated with it and the results are quite good. Yes, indeed it has unwanted side effects.

In addition it is published in „The Guardian“ which a source notorious for fake news (as far as I know) in case it deals with highly politicized issues. Sorry, clue, any intelligent conman would argue in this case like he does. Which is a kind of meta-argument as I admit.

Whatever: at this moment we know that this is not like a harmless flu, it does not behave like a flu or similar Corona-virusses. Any lock-down has severe negative consequences that we cannot fix quantitatively right now and it slows the spread on the expense of the future (second wave). That the right vaccine will come (properly tested if there is one) is unlikely. The intransparent mixtures of people and organizations involved in it do not build trust.
For me one thing is clear: I will not let any vaccine offered earlier than 2 years from now affect me. Gates should first clean up the mess he produced in India and whereelse before he may claim to have any say.

Posted by: Hausmeister | May 1 2020 13:58 utc | 238

@Lester G #241
The theory that nCOV is man-made requires multiple legs of evidence:

1) That it can be made. Not at all clear.

I've posted before that the existing coronavirus models literally could not be used to create nCOV, as nCOV utilizes an attack mechanism that was unknown before.

Secondly, I've actually talked to people who do genetic modifications. It is really hard. And you need to test a lot in order to understand what effect actually occurs with changes made. This is a really slow, expensive process; in the case of an infectious human transmission disease, you need lots of humans and/or specific types of monkeys and years in order to have any chance of success since I already noted that the models don't work.

2) That the profiteering that is occurring, would not occur if the disease were natural.

The implicit assumption when the "profit motive conspiracy" is talked about is that the profit couldn't happen unless the disease were man-made.

This is utterly false.

3) That the people doing the work - the disease creation, the disease spread, the lobbying, the reaping of benefits, the top levels of the mask/ventilator/Amazon delivery crowd - that no one has talked. None of these people would be moved by the fact that their profiteering has killed 200K+ people and will kill many more. That someone or some org has created a 100% reliable method for identifying and controlling sociopaths.

So if you're going to talk about nCOV as man-made, provide some hard evidence.

Otherwise, simply noting that there is profit motive is utterly meaningless, especially when there's so much countering financial and political loss disincentive.

Posted by: c1ue | May 1 2020 14:02 utc | 239

Danish are testing blood donated to understand nCOV infection rate source

Result for first 9496 donors is 1.7%.

This compares with Denmark's confirmed case vs. population rate of 9311 vs. population of 5.8m = 0.16%

Posted by: c1ue | May 1 2020 14:18 utc | 240

NPR did a survey on US States' capacity, existing or planned, for contact tracing
NPR contact tracing

California: existing capacity unknown. 10,000 hires projected. NPR estimate is that this is insufficient.

New York: 475 existing, 4,000 planned. NPR estimate is that this is insufficient.

Most of the states are insufficient or no data.

Posted by: c1ue | May 1 2020 14:23 utc | 241

A User | May 1 2020 8:05 utc | 220

Clearly you are Trump deranged and can't be reasoned with, but very few children and infants die of Covid-19. Of course, some do. But statistics indicate very strongly that Covid is not at all life threatening to under 50s who don't have co-morbidities like obesity, heart disease, etc. I've cited those statistics in a couple of my posts here. I wish b would deal with this now well-established statistical fact. It's informative that he has never done so. It's the key fact allowing societies to get back to work and focus on protecting the vulnerable and the very old.

Posted by: fairleft | May 1 2020 14:29 utc | 242

@Hausmeister #242
It seems your opinion of Bergstrom is based primarily on your hydroxychloroquine view.

I was one of the first people to talk about hydroxychloroquine as a potentially promising way to treat nCOV well over a month ago. The way hydroxychloroquine works is theoretically effective; lab tests with human cells showed it could be effective; it is cheap; it is an old and well understood drug so why not?

However, Bergstrom is 100% correct: the theory of hydroxychloroquine being a good way to treat nCOV has not been proven out in studies so far.

Note that he doesn't say it cannot work or does not work. He says:

1) It is politicized - which is true

2) That the studies are not conclusive at all.

I've looked at quite a number of these myself: both Raoult tests, 4 different China ones, a Brazil one and a couple others I can't recall the location offhand.

The studies that showed "good" results were bad studies. Poorly set up, no control, very small number of people in study, selection biases obvious, etc etc.

Every study that had good process - did *not* show hydroxychloroquine, with or without azithromycin, actually doing an unquestionable amount of good.

One critique which is valid is that many of these "good" studies were covering people who were already critically ill and likely to die, and that hydroxychloroquine appears to reduce the death rate a small degree.

So, what you say is correct: theoretically, hydroxychloroquine should be most effective when taken before nCOV has progressed into pneumonia, edema or sepsis. None of the studies - including Raoult - have tested this.

Nonetheless, Bergstrom's assertion is correct from my view: the studies to date don't show hydroxychloroquine being a cure or even of significant benefit.

He specifically did not say that hydroxychloroquine doesn't do anything, at any time, against nCOV.

Posted by: c1ue | May 1 2020 14:34 utc | 243

@ c1ue | May 1 2020 14:34 utc | 247
“I was one of the first people to talk about hydroxychloroquine as a potentially promising way to treat nCOV well over a month ago.“
You remember the date?
I am no advocate of chloroquin. Just that I followed that intensively.
"...the theory of hydroxychloroquine being a good way to treat nCOV has not been proven out in studies so far."
Yes and no. The trouble was with the setup of the studies, not with the results which are or were quite good. With the mentioned problem. And today there are many thousand good results. It is the standard procedure in Turkey right now and apparently in Algeria as well. Does not make the studies better. But that applies to Remsidivir as well. At the same time when chloroquin was criticized this was appraised without even having one single result!
So his evaluation of the case seems shaky and I simply assume that the rest is of the same level. A guy claiming to be critical like him must have mentioned this problem. It was a constant MSM topic since 6 weeks.
Plus,yes, the publication source which is very questionable for me in any politicized case.

Posted by: Hausmeister | May 1 2020 14:49 utc | 244

Posted by: c1ue | May 1 2020 14:34 utc | 247

Everything you say is wrong and every argument you make is unsound. Increasing the frequency of your inane posts doesn't change that, it just makes it more obvious.

Posted by: Lester G | May 1 2020 14:53 utc | 245

American Association of Physicians and Surgeons: Hydroxychloroquine Has about 90 Percent Chance of Helping COVID-19 Patients


Posted by: Jackrabbit | May 1 2020 15:40 utc | 246

You can add Morocco and Senegal as places where chloroquine is used. Better for 3rd world countries that the Westerners prefer to wait for more expensive stuff.

Posted by: Mina | May 1 2020 16:11 utc | 247

@ 211 Hmpf .. i am addressing your characterization of posters at moa... i think it is wrong.. you have nothing to back up your conclusions.. they are subjective and have no basis in reality..

@ 214 fairleft... you misunderstand karlof1's post.. he thinks the guy saying he is the dr is not the dr... you clearly missed that...

Posted by: james | May 1 2020 16:11 utc | 248

90% odds are pretty good odds...

yeah, right.. thanks again for those posts earlier.. sorry to hear of your trials at pls place.. they have gone off the deep end over there..

Posted by: james | May 1 2020 16:13 utc | 249

Thank you !! for the AAPS link. I can't think of any obvious financial conflict of interest for AAPS in regards to promoting a cheap generic drug, so here's a quote from the article:

As the letter to [Arizona] Gov. Ducey notes, “Many nations, including Turkey and India, are protecting medical workers and contacts of infected persons prophylactically. According to, deaths per million persons from COVID-19 as of Apr 27 are 167 in the U.S., 33 in Turkey, and 0.6 in India.”

After Morocco and Algeria began using HCQ, a trend break and sharp reduction in their COVID-19 case fatality rate occurred.

Vaccines and results of randomized double-blind controlled trials of new drugs are at best months away. But patients are dying now, while affordable, long-used drugs would be available except for government restrictions, AAPS states.

These sort of specific drug restrictions are rare and always political, like opiates, for example. Once a drug is approved for any indication, physicians are free to use it any way they like, unless there is a specific restriction. Drug companies, however, are allowed to advertise and sell drugs *only* for approved uses, and routinely pay huge fines for violations.

For some reason Fauci has opposed these drugs all along and even prohibited NIH from funding studies (even though he isn't the NIH director). Meanwhile he is heavily promoting and probably financially connected to this giant turd in the making:

In quest for vaccine, US makes 'big bet' on company with unproven technology

The short version is that Uncle Sam is pouring half a billion dollars into a ten year old company with no products and $1.5 billon of accumulated losses. The "vaccine" technology is not yet proven to work and is really a solution in search of a problem. The company chief executive has a business degree and no training or experience in biochemistry, medicine, medical research, pharmaceuticals, etc. but is a great salesman, the most important and profitable skill in Uncle Sam Land.

Does anybody remember a fiasco named...

Theranos, now disgraced for raising some $700 million in venture capital for a blood-testing technology that turned out to be a sham, turning the now-dissolved company and its embattled CEO into a symbol of tech hubris run amok.

Posted by: Trailer Trash | May 1 2020 17:40 utc | 251

Trailer Trash | May 1 2020 17:40 utc | 254

The shame is whereelse. “Many nations, including Turkey and India, are protecting medical workers and contacts of infected persons prophylactically. According to, deaths per million persons from COVID-19 as of Apr 27 are 167 in the U.S., 33 in Turkey, and 0.6 in India.”
it is a very old Malaria preventive drug with known unwelcome side effects. Look at the formula: very difficult to dissolve in water, low bioavailability, very long biological half-life. This is clearly a problem of finding the right application. Better bioavailability would mean for sure a much lower daily dosis. Until now this drug, made on very old equipment, was a cash cow for the firms. They simply stopped research into better ways of applications.
But according to what we know it should work as prevention. No case is known where a Lupus patient who takes it daily got covid-19.
I simply cannot understand @ b why he gets angry when perceiving such data.

Posted by: Hausmeister | May 1 2020 18:00 utc | 252

Carol Davidek Waller @ 256
Thanks for that interesting point, seems logical and good evedence as to the origin of the virus ! Something all to many here
appear to want to brush under the carpet. But not you. This blog needs more truth seekers and less agenda pushers.
Love to hear more from you please.

Posted by: Mark2 | May 1 2020 20:12 utc | 253

Mark2 | May 1 2020 20:12 utc | 257

"This blog needs more truth seekers and less agenda pushers.“

Indeed. But:

"Apparently most viruses that leap from animal to human flourish in the climate the animal lives in and are adversely affected by either end of the temperature spectrum. This virus is unaffected by climate and temperature and therefore is the product of human engineering."
(Parenthese by me)
As a minute particle in a well built analysis it might count. As such it is simply ridiculous, sorry.

Posted by: Hausmeister | May 1 2020 20:27 utc | 254

Hausmeister @ 258
Your to harsh, and wrong with that comment !
I am not a judge, i’m an interested member of the public ! Tired of being told lie after lie by the ‘powers that be’ I will make my own mind up
on information I accumulate! This is but one point, right or wrong matters not it’s the sum total of evedence that counts. Open your mind ! After all a scientist would do the same !
Now my criticism of you ! Your to quick with your put down, if you treat a child or student like that you will do untold harm !
Purely to feed your own obveous ego /vanity .
Just saying!

Posted by: Mark2 | May 1 2020 21:14 utc | 255

Mark2 | May 1 2020 21:14 utc | 259

Too harsh? May be, I do not know. "Tired of being told lie after lie by the ‘powers that be’ I will make my own mind up
on information I accumulate!"
Fine, but is this information? I guess it is not. It is one from 1001x possible thoughts and not substantiated in any respect. Arent't we feed up with daily changing fog and gossips about that subject?
I hope we can get away from speculating based on numbers that one cannot compare and start to look at the real issue: what properties does this little devil have? An important part of science it to avoid questions that cannot be answered with the tools at hand. Just keep in mind that in Brazil infections are reported right now. Unappropriate climate there?

Posted by: Hausmeister | May 1 2020 21:35 utc | 256

Hausmeister @ 260
Brazil, Hot and humid ideal for spreading infection plus bats mmm thanks. Are we going down the whole list.
I note your selectivity / agenda.
I’l put you down as a ‘sweep it under the carpet’ elephant in the room kind of guy.
This is a major world wide disarster possibly the worse this world has ever seen. A perminate chainge for human kind, that’s my view. I think that IF this is man made, those responsible should pay dearly. IF this a bio weapon we are ecxpecting the very people who unleashed it, to solve our present disaster!! If you disregard that logic, you are the one being ridiculous!

Posted by: Mark2 | May 1 2020 22:03 utc | 257

Mark2 | May 1 2020 22:03 utc | 261

Can't you see to necessity to move away from endless if if if's?
I have no argument at hand that this cannot be a bio-weapon. But please: who has checkable facts at hand that it is one? This climate argument is a nothingburger.
Not to waste our time: "This is a major world wide disarster possibly the worse this world has ever seen.“ What reasons can you cite for your claim?
The French professor Montagnier has claimed that artificially HIV genetic code was inserted into a Corona virus. Unfortunately only as a vocal comment in a television show. Not even a written study that people could check is there.
As long as it remains like this we better keep our mouth shut, no?
Not showing up with ridiculous stuff is not ‘sweep it under the carpet’. Can yu get this difference?

Posted by: Hausmeister | May 1 2020 22:22 utc | 258

james | May 1 2020 16:11 utc | 251

No, you didn't understand why I posted the link. The linked to person generally has the political positions of 'our' William Warrick. The accusation and doxxing were outrageous, frankly. Did you have a reaction to that?

Posted by: fairleft | May 1 2020 23:42 utc | 259

‘Pandemic America’—With Guests Jill Stein & Richard Wolff, Friday 8pm EDT” (Consortium news about 2 minutes from now.)

Posted by: Walter | May 1 2020 23:56 utc | 260

To answer the implicit question of the Occidental Dissident piece, "who benefits from world wide confusion, chaos, panic, etc?".


And yes, SPECTRE, from the James Bond movies represents something very real.

Posted by: Jay | May 2 2020 1:36 utc | 261

@ 263 fairleft... neither post is up anymore - karlof1's or william h warrick MD.... my impression was karlof1 thought the person was mis-representing himself which is why he responded as he did.. now you seem to believe william is an MD as he says he is... i went and did a little search and happened to discover a person with a similar name commenting fairly definitively, taking a position that might or might not fit the profile in your link now found @214...

now neither karlof1 or william are around to proceed further.. the quote below sounds like someone with a strong ideological position that i don't this a doctor? maybe... they come in all kinds... he doesn't put the MD at the end of his name on this post though... the age he says he is fits with being born in 1943 in the link you provided...

""If we don't get herd immunity we will have to get Chipped and the digital ID, Mark of the Beast tattoo. Cummings made a callous statement but most people, 80+% recover w/o major problems, my sister, 72 yo is recovering and I am 76 and on preventive OTC Rx of 3 or more cups Tonic water with 1/4th lime daily, Vit C 1,000 mg twice daily, lots of Sun and fresh air and zinc supplement 50 mg daily.

Posted by: William H Warrick II | Apr 9 2020 18:16 utc | 156""

Posted by: james | May 2 2020 1:39 utc | 262

The US and UK have been smashed with Covid deaths.

Thailand, which was awash with Chinese tourists until late in the game, about 50 deaths.

Vietnam, 300 Covid infections with zero deaths

Australia, 80 deaths.

Explain it to me? How can the same disease have such different results, unless they are lying about the US/UK deaths, or there is something in the US/UK medical procedures which is faulty, or there is some form of sabotage going on in the background.

It is mystifying!

Posted by: Ric G | May 2 2020 7:34 utc | 263

Last night Oz Media were pointing out that South Korea has checked the spread of COVID-19 without a harsh lock down. The TV news showed film of healthcare workers in a hospital, all of whom were wearing white plastic coveralls including head-covers with sealed visors. Each suit had a back-pack ventilation/filter unit approx 450mm h x 300mm wide and a short flexible 40mm hose connecting the suit to the ventilator/filter unit. The suits were only lightly inflated and there were no trailing power cables - suggesting that the back-packs are battery-powered.

I can't find comparative data on SK vs 'other' health worker casualty rates but I wouldn't be surprised if it's the lowest in the world.
i.e. It would be easy to choose between a sealed +ve pressure suit or a paper mask & goggles...

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | May 2 2020 8:07 utc | 264

Why is it that the 3 countries that have applied the harshest lockdowns in Europe have more dead than the ones where the economy kept functioning (by allowing shops to practice a much reduced 'social distanciation' between employees and having anyone who wanted to keep working do so as long as protective equipments or measures were supposedly available --but without much control) ?
Is it just by chance that the three countries are part of the "Club Med" according to northern countries?
The graph for Fr/It/Sp/Be/Nl/De:

For me, it means that the harsh lockdown practiced in the south of Europe (not a real quarantine, which would imply food is delivered at home and no mingling) are useless and even more dangerous because they let the virus circulate between the already sick in hospitals and institutions and the people working with them, who are understandably overwhelmed by the task (+ panic and anxiety showered on them non-stop) in the main place.

Posted by: Mina | May 2 2020 8:13 utc | 265

Ric, for what it is worth, here are my two cents: Thailand/Vietnam, probably have some malaria developed immunity; Australia: wide enough for the virus not to be able to concentrate (+ Australia had quarantine measures pretty early + the fires last winter, probably reduced the numbers of tourists in and out this year).

Posted by: Mina | May 2 2020 8:19 utc | 266

The FDA has approved Remdesivir for treatment of SEVERE cases of COVID-19 in children and adults.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | May 2 2020 8:44 utc | 267

We must add the burgeoning open calls for a draconian, permanent censorship regime, and the escalating practice of social media censorship, to the already long list of evils caused by the lockdown itself.

"Never let a crisis go to waste", and the 1% sure is doing all it can to exploit this crisis of its own creation.

Posted by: Russ | May 2 2020 9:02 utc | 268

james | May 2 2020 1:39 utc | 266

Like I said. And you somehow avoid saying anything critical about karlof's post. How do I get one of his special passes?🙂

Posted by: fairleft | May 2 2020 11:17 utc | 269

Russ at 273

We should have a realistic and humane policy toward Covid-19. Instead -- because every big story is "immediately packaged for 'left' and 'right' audiences by TV networks" -- the for-profit media markets a wrong approach to MAGAs and a wrong approach to Never Trumpers. Too many chumps, and too much power in an irresponsible media. Anyway, great piece by Matt Taibbi. Some of my favorite sentences:

When the Covid-19 crisis struck, the scolding utopia was no longer abstraction. The dream was reality! Pure communism had arrived! Failure to take elite advice was no longer just a deplorable faux pas. Not heeding experts was now murder. It could not be tolerated.

We have a lot of dumb people in this country. But the difference between the stupidities cherished by the Idiocracy set ingesting fish cleaner, and the ones pushed in places like the Atlantic, is that the jackasses among the “expert” class compound their wrongness by being so sure of themselves that they force others to go along. In other words, to combat “ignorance,” the scolders create a new and more virulent species of it: exclusive ignorance, forced ignorance, ignorance with staying power.

Posted by: fairleft | May 2 2020 11:50 utc | 270

Why is it that the 3 countries that have applied the harshest lockdowns in Europe have more dead than the ones where the economy kept functioning.... Is it just by chance that the three countries are part of the "Club Med" according to northern countries?

Posted by: Mina | May 2 2020 8:13 utc | 266

Not that I mind, but it's not actually true. UK has overtaken France and Spain in the table and is close to overtaking Italy. In fact it's the "open for business" anglophones who have the worst figures, i.e. US and UK.

Posted by: Laguerre | May 2 2020 12:14 utc | 271

@ Mina 267
Ric, for what it is worth, here are my two cents: Thailand/Vietnam, probably have some malaria developed immunity; Australia: wide enough for the virus not to be able to concentrate (+ Australia had quarantine measures pretty early + the fires last winter, probably reduced the numbers of tourists in and out this year).

Vietnam/Thailand with malaria immunity: quite possible

Australia is huge but highly focused in only a few cities: not really plausible

Russia has huge infections but only 100 deaths????

Africa had huge numbers of Chinese construction workers but the virus seems to be working slowly????? 1689 deaths in a total of 50 odd countries

India should be devastated by now but is it also moving slowly. 1289 deaths

The most dangerous places for Covid-19 seem to be western hospitals and nursing homes! The very places which should be, in medical terms, the most protected!

It is safer to be on the streets of Mumbai than in an Australian nursing home!

We are starting to move into the realms of conspiracy theories here!!

Posted by: Ric G | May 2 2020 12:37 utc | 272

No conspiracy theory: WHO said 50% of all death in Europe were in nursing homes.
Bad immunity because of little access to the outside (except in the 1% luxury homes), and the fact that the people who work in these places are themselves among the 99% who takes public transportation or has more than one job...

My mistake for the curves, here is the one per million ppl

Posted by: Mina | May 2 2020 13:15 utc | 273

In my small New England US city the nursing homes, asst living facilities, etc. are all under lockdown. Can't deliver anything, or visit a loved one. But the staff, over-worked and frantic, come and go without being tested. Inevitable result -- it's a slaughter zone. Hard to tell if it is intentional (a feature) or just plain incompetent. Americans, constantly bombarded by double-think, have poor critical thinking abilities.

Posted by: Lucille Crystal Ball | May 2 2020 13:27 utc | 274

Matt Taibbi wrote: "When the Covid-19 crisis struck, the scolding utopia was no longer abstraction... Pure communism had arrived!"

What a dopey thing to write. Enforced isolation with zero support is pretty much the opposite of communistic ideas of any stripe.

>But the staff, over-worked and frantic, come and go without
>being tested. Inevitable result -- it's a slaughter zone.
>Hard to tell if it is intentional (a feature) or just plain
>Posted by: Lucille Crystal Ball | May 2 2020 13:27 utc | 276

It is startling how at every point our Dear Leaders manage to make exactly the wrong decision. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, but not our Exceptional Fools. The policies around care homes are particularly cruel.

It doesn't exactly take a genius with six doctorates to figure out that care home workers and volunteer family members need to stay at the facility rather than coming and going. Yes it would take much work to set up. Probably not as much work as dealing with the aftermath of current failed policies.

Posted by: Trailer Trash | May 2 2020 14:05 utc | 275

@Posted by: Lucille Crystal Ball | May 2 2020 13:27 utc | 276

Here is at least one Texas City nursing home that seems to be having success with the hydroxychloroquine/azithromycin/Zn cocktail in a post-exposure situation with many covid+ long term care pts and staff members:

And there is this post-exposure prophylaxis (PEP) apparent success story from a South Korea:

[ Case Study of broad hydroxychloroquine post-exposure prophylaxis (PEP) success at a Daegu area long-term care hospital to patients and staff following an index exposure event by a covid-19 “superspreader” care worker who was also a member at the covid-19 cluster outbreak Daegu Shincheonji religious group church]

Posted by: gm | May 2 2020 14:30 utc | 276

same in France and Spain. Dying people are not even allowed to have one member of their family with them.

Posted by: Mina | May 2 2020 15:33 utc | 277

This is how Turkey traces and tests

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | May 2 2020 15:59 utc | 278

Posted by: Laguerre | May 2 2020 12:14 utc | 273

Not that I mind, but it's not actually true. UK has overtaken France and Spain in the table and is close to overtaking Italy. In fact it's the "open for business" anglophones who have the worst figures, i.e. US and UK.

Russia will overtake them all soon. It has the highest growth rate among top 10. Moscow has 1/2 of all cases. Similar pattern like with "open for business" francophones, saxophones and other trumpets.

Posted by: hopehely | May 2 2020 16:05 utc | 279

@ 264 ric g good question ric.. i liked minas response...

@265 hoarsewhisperer.. south korea is also a mystery why the numbers are so low..

@ 271 fairleft.. one free pass coming up, lol!

@ 276 lucille crystal ball... that is bizarre but sounds about right... last sentence nails it..

Posted by: james | May 2 2020 16:15 utc | 280

Posted by: Lucille Crystal Ball | May 2 2020 13:27 utc | 274

In my small New England US city the nursing homes, asst living facilities, etc. are all under lockdown. Can't deliver anything, or visit a loved one. But the staff, over-worked and frantic, come and go without being tested. Inevitable result -- it's a slaughter zone. Hard to tell if it is intentional (a feature) or just plain incompetent. Americans, constantly bombarded by double-think, have poor critical thinking abilities.

I'm not sure what the aggregate ratio among US federal and state political elites, media and professional cadres is of stupidity, incompetence, hysteria, and evil intent, but those certainly are the only four factors. (Sure puts in perspective how clinically insane or morbidly stupid one would have to be to accept what they say as fact and obey their prescriptions.)

They've pointlessly and with tremendous ancillary harm imposed more or less draconian restrictions on the general population, including the obscene assault on outdoor exercise and recreation, while failing to protect the vulnerable. On the contrary, like you say nursing homes and hospitals are veritable slaughterhouses. Literally the most upside-down radical antithesis of a sane policy imaginable.

I think a lot of these scum in government and media should be held accountable for crimes against humanity.

Posted by: Russ | May 2 2020 21:15 utc | 281

Posted by: fairleft | May 2 2020 11:50 utc | 270

I too thought this part was good:

When the Covid-19 crisis struck, the scolding utopia was no longer abstraction. The dream was reality! Failure to take elite advice was no longer just a deplorable faux pas. Not heeding experts was now murder. It could not be tolerated.

The most repugnant thing is how many of the most shrill and retarded banshees screaming "OBEY YOUR BETTERS!!!!!" were fraudulently posing, up until a few weeks ago, as skeptics or opponents of the US system and always ready to call out its "experts" as prostitute hacks. Well, that's still exactly what they are. But suddenly all the erstwhile rebels consider them the Word Of Truth incarnate. Mass insanity.

Posted by: Russ | May 2 2020 21:21 utc | 282

More censorship from FB and Youtube.

Within 48 hours both Facebook and then Youtube have deleted the accounts of David Icke for posting “content that disputes the existence and transmission of Covid-19 as described by the WHO and the NHS.”.....

Journalist Matt Taibbi recently wrote an excellent essay about the dangers inherent in the increased demand we’ve been seeing for more censorship and deplatforming during the coronavirus pandemic, correctly arguing that more authoritarian control over the ideas people are allowed to discuss is vastly more dangerous than the ideas themselves.

“The people who want to add a censorship regime to a health crisis are more dangerous and more stupid by leaps and bounds than a president who tells people to inject disinfectant,” Taibbi writes. “It’s astonishing that they don’t see this.”

Many formerly "alternative" sites are gleefully leaping on board this censorship orgy. What's especially astonishing is the level of stupidity one must have not to see that the same weapon shortly will be turned back on them, the moment they go back to their former "anti-authoritarian", "anti-imperial", "anti-globalist" poses.

Posted by: Russ | May 3 2020 6:50 utc | 283

@Lester G #245
Fortunately, I don't give a crap what morons like you think.

Posted by: c1ue | May 3 2020 16:54 utc | 284

@Hausmeister #244
I first published a post on MoA referring to a WattsUpWithThat posting by Rud Istvan on March 20:
Comment 423 on the MoA False Claims posting

Posted by: c1ue | May 3 2020 17:00 utc | 285

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