Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 08, 2020

Open Thread 2020-28

Non-corona news & views ...

Posted by b on April 8, 2020 at 14:38 UTC | Permalink

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the reported death rate from coronavirus is way, way too high.

You are being manipulated.

https://youtu.be/vSgUvsBtAdc

Posted by: Florin | Apr 8 2020 14:50 utc | 1

China Overtakes U.S. as Leader in International Patent Filings

Total patent applications in 2019 through WIPO’s international filing system grew 5% to an all-time high of 265,800, with 52% coming from Asia and 23% each from Europe and North America. Businesses from China, Japan and South Korea accounted for 60% of the top 50 corporate filers, underscoring the region’s status as a global driver of innovation.

[...]

China’s filings jumped 11% last year to 58,990, representing a more than 200-fold rise from 1999. The government has provided generous subsidies to domestic manufacturers under its “Made in China 2025” industrial modernization initiative, and the country has become a major player in fields such as drones, AI and regenerative medicine in recent years.

“China’s rapid growth to become the top filer of international patent applications via WIPO underlines a long-term shift in the locus of innovation towards the East,” said Francis Gurry, the organization’s director general.

The U.S., which had remained the top filer of international patents since 1978, dropped to second after an increase of 3% to 57,840 applications. Japan ranked third with 52,660.

About the quality of the new patents:

Computer technology produced the largest share of applications by field, followed by digital communication. Fierce competition in cutting-edge fields such as fifth-generation wireless and artificial intelligence has spurred businesses and researchers to protect the rights to their work.

So, no nuclear fusion, no genetic engineering, no other types of renewable energy, no nanotechnology in sight. Even what they call "AI" is not really AI, but just advanced learning algorithms at best.

--//--

Echoes of deindustrialization:

Amid Medical Supply Spat With Canada, U.S. Gives 3M Green Light to Import From China

Of the 200 million masks 3M produces per quarter, 166,5 are from its Chinese factories. Just 35 million are still produced in the USA.

And even those 35 million are probably produced at out of date, inefficient and unprofitable factories, tokens of local political favors in order to give the local mayor/governor his/her reelection.

--//--

Japan's façade continues to crumble:

Japan’s Leader Invokes Emergency, Warning of Surge to 80,000 Cases

Here's the magic: Japan probably already has 80,000 infected. It's the Japanese government that is witholding information from its own people.

They will "get their predictions right" and come out as a bunch of geniuses who successfully contained the castrophe. Japanese fascist-style hive mind will remain intact.

Western MSM looked so worried about China allegedly letting its own people in the dark - they should be investigating Japan by the same logic.

--//--

Seoul orders shutdown of all bars, clubs

Oops.

Looks like I was right: South Korea has not been enforcing a lockdown on Seul. In fact, even the superfluous businesses seem to be still open.

And guess the place the raising alarm case came from: Gangnam, the rich people's district.

This is what was happening before:

Previously, the city government recommended the shutdown to all 2,146 such outlets, but 422 were still up and running. The government has the authority to shut down businesses in times of national crisis.

Well, sure it can. But it wasn't.

Capitalism is wonderful: it gives you the illusion of liberty, but deep down there isn't any.

Posted by: vk | Apr 8 2020 15:13 utc | 2

Attention! If you want to really have fun, read the following:

The Ukrainian "Center for the Study of Russia" issued a special report entitled "Possibilities for the spread of COVID-19 virus infection by the Russian special services".

The unique thing. I recommend reading, use a translator. But be careful - when reading, softening of the brain is possible.
Ukrainian degenerate dreamers surpassed themselves. Splendid.

Posted by: alaff | Apr 8 2020 15:15 utc | 3

EU is a joke

The sudden resignation of Ferrari and his stinging criticism was bound to add pressure on EU institutions, which have been accused of not working together to battle the global pandemic.

https://www.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/3078963/lost-faith-eus-top-scientist-mauro-ferrari-quits-over-coronavirus

....

European Union finance ministers failed to agree in all-night talks on more support for their coronavirus-hit economies and their chairman said on Wednesday morning he was suspending the discussions until Thursday.


http://www.ekathimerini.com/251475/article/ekathimerini/business/eu-ministers-fail-to-agree-virus-economic-rescue-in-all-night-talks


Posted by: DG | Apr 8 2020 15:17 utc | 4

The blob has no boundaries, no scruples, are they preparing war w/China?

I'm posting this abomination of a story because our information war has reached a new low
https://www.breitbart.com/asia/2020/04/07/report-wuhan-funeral-homes-burned-people-alive/
Warning, this story is not for the squeamish, take comfort that it is most certainly fiction.
1. It's published by Breitbart which we know has low journalistic standards but it is sourced from 'Radio Free Asia' so it has our US CIA goons despicable fingerprints on it.

2. The propaganda worked on its target audience, the posters on Breitbart bought it hook-line-and-sinker.

3. Why do I think it's false? The sensationalistic tone, even FOX and the Daily Mail won't touch it (China must have gotten to them), they make other erroneous claims such as Chinese hospitals only giving patients oxygen because they don't have medicine while western hospitals are trying new therapies such as Colloquine. Notice the 'hero narrative' assigned to the U.S. even though China was the first to use this drup.

This is seriously demented.

Posted by: Christian J Chuba | Apr 8 2020 15:18 utc | 5

Read, Non-corona news & views ...

Posted by: frank | Apr 8 2020 15:32 utc | 6

Pepe Escobar has a new post on FB:

THE NUCLEAR QUADRILLION IMPLOSION SCENARIO – IN ONE MINUTE

"Capital One is number 11 on the list of the largest banks in the US by assets. They are already in DEEP trouble on their derivative exposures.
I’ve been on this derivatives story non-stop for quite a while – because this is the real NUCLEAR issue.
As my NYC sources told me, Capital One made a TERRIBLE trade, betting via derivatives that oil would not plunge to where it is now – 17-year lows.
Mega pressure is ON - on all those Wall Street outfits that gave oil companies the equivalent of puts on all their oil production at prices above $50.00 a barrel. These puts now come due – and the strain on the Wall Street houses and US banks will become unbearable. THIS IS JUST THE BEGINNING.
AND IT GETS WORSE. Much worse. ..."

I hope this is the correct thread to post this on - if not, apologies.

Posted by: spudski | Apr 8 2020 15:53 utc | 7

https://www.rt.com/news/485291-ecuador-correa-rt-criminal-conspiracy/
"On Tuesday, an Ecuadorian court convicted Correa and 17 others on charges of accepting bribes and spending them on political campaigning. The former president, who was tried in absentia, said the prosecution relied on fraudulent evidence while the judges would not accept proof of fabrication."

Trump will have them locked up and contracting coronavirus alongside Assange if he can for giving asylum to Assange.
South America have got the numbers to boot the US out of their lives, but like the middle east, they are very susceptible to divide and conquer.

I dont like fanatical religions and ideologies but they do have a place in pulling people together to destroy overwhelming force.,

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 8 2020 15:54 utc | 8

@Florin #1
Yet another exposition by a statistical illiterate.

There is *zero* possibility that nCOV mortality is exaggerated by "improper accounting" of cause vs. just having nCOV when dying.

The infection rate for nCOV in Italy is between 0.22% (confirmed cases vs. population) to 3.76% (nCOV infected extrapolated from death stats).

Normal Italy monthly mortality is 8833. 0.22% of this is 20 deaths; 3.76% of this is 332.

This means if every single death in the nCOV infected groups is attributed to nCOV, the contribution to nCOV total should only be 20 to 332 vs. the 2817 deaths per 10M as of April 7.

Even if we expand this up to say, 10% - only 883 people per 10M population should be dying = 5370 for all of Italy.
Italy has 17127 nCOV deaths so far in less than 1 month.

The only way "improper accounting" is causing the large numbers is if 30% of all deaths from all causes is attributed to nCOV, regardless of nCOV being tested as present. Positing that is going elbow deep into conspiracy theory.

So the video presenter and his source?
Both are utterly incompetent.

Posted by: c1ue | Apr 8 2020 16:04 utc | 9

For those who do not/cannot do AssBook, Pepe Escobar has included his post referenced by spudski @7 on his VK feed.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 8 2020 16:04 utc | 10

The blob has no boundaries, no scruples, are they preparing war w/China?
This is seriously demented.
Posted by: Christian J Chuba | Apr 8 2020 15:18 utc | 5
____

A hot war is not imminent but the anti-China hysteria prepares the population to accept and support a sustained and multi-pronged hybrid war: the extraterritorial overreach of the US judicial system into Chinese companies and technology; sanctions and blacklisting; color revolution; disrupting Belt and Road; continued FONOPS in South China sea to break up ASEAN cooperation; global disinformation to curtail China's intl influence, etc.

But with COVID, the US propaganda only goes so far. The national responses to COVID are largely 'immune' to US propaganda, even with statistical massaging -- no amount of disinformation can hide which country is coming out of lockdown, ready to resume normalcy, and which is failing to deal with it.

Posted by: occupatio | Apr 8 2020 16:07 utc | 11

Just received some "professional analysis and insights" from CITI Group (as most of you know a company with a very checkered past). The most interesting "insight":

"In order to shut down the COVID-19 Novel Coronavirus, many countries will need to temporarily shut down economic activity."

Ominous. I'm about 90% convinced, based on a preponderance of circumstantial evidence, that this virus was genetically engineered and deliberately released into the public domain.

Posted by: Ben C | Apr 8 2020 16:08 utc | 12

occupatio @11: "A hot war is not imminent..."

I just read Pepe's leak from finance insiders and am not so sure about this. The US has tried sanctions, tariffs, various trade barriers and dire threats to all and sundry, and even a series of bio attacks on China in order to maintain global dominance. As Peter AU1 has suggested not long ago, the US may try to blockade China's oil supply, but that will lead to "kinetic encounters" guaranteed and for sure.

Does anyone really believe that the US will give up on hegemony without playing every possible card it has? And what cards does the US have left other than its military?

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 8 2020 16:26 utc | 13

Does anyone really believe that the US will give up on hegemony without playing every possible card it has? And what cards does the US have left other than its military?
Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 8 2020 16:26 utc | 13
____
I perfectly understand your viewpoint. And to add to your argument, I would say that Washington is very clear that, given the current trajectories, China's economy (and therefore its military as well) will overtake that of the US -- it's just a matter of if, but when. Therefore, the US 'must' intervene to break that momentum. Hence the total hysteria.

However, will a US president sign off on a war he can't win? A war with casualties that are unacceptable to the American public? The US military is great as knocking out in sandals, but it's been generations since it has fought a near-peer adversary.

So, US interventions will happen -- and they already have. Everyone it can think of, it has already tried, just think back about the last two, three years.

That said, even if the president wouldn't want a hot war, it could happen if the deep state forces his hand. That's a concern, and I agree with you from that perspective.

Posted by: occupatio | Apr 8 2020 16:54 utc | 14

typo. should read: it's not a matter of if, but when.

Posted by: occupatio | Apr 8 2020 16:54 utc | 15

WG @ 13

I think it's already been shown by attempts in Syria and Iran that Russia will shut the US military down in a heartbeat. Also it appears that the US military has been degraded by Covid.

The US is going to have to suck up a huge derivative hit as described by Pepe.

This will deflate the stock market hugely but be part of the process of returning to reality. Trump needs to explain to the American people that the stock market is not a good reflection of the economy and how well they are doing.

Posted by: financial matters | Apr 8 2020 17:03 utc | 16

occupatio, it was extraordinarily bad timing that Radio Free Asia released this absurd, monstrous, sideshow of a hit piece the day before China announced they removed their lockdown on Wuhan. I hope some CIA goons lose their jobs over this, not because they were too incompetent to read WHO reports that warned us about the epidemic but for losing their touch in real job, hybrid warfare.

The Chinese always wear face masks

The other amusing thing is that we just started doing this and we won't mention that the Chinese have done this from the beginning. Our goons only mention S.Korea or Taiwan. The problem is that our public can see the Chinese wearing masks everytime we show footage.
I wonder if the blob has thought of blurring out the faces to try to hide that detail :-)

Posted by: Christian J Chuba | Apr 8 2020 17:04 utc | 17

@Ben C #12
Really? And why exactly would a leader in power, when a huge economic collapse starts, want one?
These leaders always get blamed for it - and get booted.
All these conspiracy theorists are so focused on whacko theories on "da gubmint" coming to steal their liberty and bodily fluids, that they completely fail to acknowledge that a huge economic disaster is *not* what any politician in power wants.
The main interesting scenario I see in the US today is that Trump can lay the blame on state level government - both the de jure and de facto actions while simultaneously extending a big fat carrot to corporations and a much smaller carrot to most Americans.

That's the only reason he might still get re-elected - Biden simply doesn't matter.

Posted by: c1ue | Apr 8 2020 17:12 utc | 18

Posted by: c1ue | Apr 8 2020 17:12 utc | 18 in response to @Ben C #12

Really? And why exactly would a leader in power, when a huge economic collapse starts, want one? These leaders always get blamed for it - and get booted.

This is not about Trump or what he wants or what he doesn't want. He's a stooge, a sock puppet. "They" (TPTB) don't care one whit about him - or anyone else for that matter.

Posted by: Ben C | Apr 8 2020 17:35 utc | 19

"They" (TPTB) don't care one whit about him - or anyone else for that matter.
Ben C@19
Please tell us who "they are"? If you are referring to the Capitalist ruling class is it not reasonable to suspect that self preservation would be high on their list of priorities? And that they cannot exist without the capitalist system?
But perhaps you consider all such talk, of capitalism and class, to be outdated and crude. If so, I reiterate, to whom do you refer as "they"?

Posted by: bevin | Apr 8 2020 17:54 utc | 20

In addition to his FB postings, Pepe has a new item out at Consortium News:

"Who Profits From Pandemic?"

It's quite the speculative piece that as I commented at his FB begs numerous additional questions. Another item to add to Pepe's is this one by The Saker. And then those must be added to the views of Wolff, Hudson, Keiser, and Herbert I linked to yesterday. As for fears of AI hitech control, perhaps this is what we ought to worry about; perhaps b could compare it with his system.

Yes, it's a very strong cocktail. Most won't want to try and ingest it totally, although IMO that's unwise. The video links are at the tail end of the week in review thread.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 8 2020 18:22 utc | 21

Posted by: DG | Apr 8 2020 15:17 utc | 4

The sudden resignation of Ferrari and his stinging criticism was bound to add pressure on EU institutions, which have been accused of not working together to battle the global pandemic.

We've already had that story from Europhobes on the last thread. It's quite inaccurate, and omits the other half of the story, where Ferrari was already threatened with the sack last week, and he only resigned (not suddenly) because his position was no longer tenable. In any case he's Italian and was only trying to get extra benefits out of the system.

Posted by: Laguerre | Apr 8 2020 18:40 utc | 22

@ frank | Apr 8 2020 15:32 utc | 6 Read, Non-corona news & views ...
________________________________________________

I give B. heartfelt credit for trying to create a space for comments not involving the pandemic/plannedemic, but so far the general obsessive/compulsive tendency to focus exclusively on the topic has flung down this consideration and danced upon it.

Alas! apparently the urgency of commenting on the pandemic is tantamount of a frantic driver blowing through stop signs and traffic lights due to an alleged medical emergency. It's even worse than the persistent problem of commenters heedlessly and needlessly posting over-long format-wrecking URLs.

Posted by: Ort | Apr 8 2020 18:44 utc | 23

@Ben C #19
Ah, so it is the NWO/Bilderberger/Davos/whatever that have it all planned out: to steal our previous bodily fluids and liberty.

Because nCOV has clearly propelled the entire world to unite under a single government...

Posted by: c1ue | Apr 8 2020 18:47 utc | 24

Brussels agency accuses Mauro Ferrari of being ‘at best economical with truth’ in resignation statement

There were bad relations because he spent all his time in the US, and not doing the job he was paid to do.

Posted by: Laguerre | Apr 8 2020 18:48 utc | 25

Posted by: Ort | Apr 8 2020 18:44 utc | 23

I give B. heartfelt credit for trying to create a space for comments not involving the pandemic/plannedemic, but so far the general obsessive/compulsive tendency to focus exclusively on the topic has flung down this consideration and danced upon it.

Something else important is happening out there?

Posted by: hopehely | Apr 8 2020 18:49 utc | 26

Pepe reports the WTO has just announced the start of Great Depression 2.0. My comment to that:

Time to give some serious thought to Michael Hudson's adage--"Debts that can't be repaid won't." Neoliberalism must be made to walk the plank, disappear into the briny deep and be replaced by a new OS and structural support that takes a very close look at future needs and resources to satisfy them.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 8 2020 19:15 utc | 27

I've been pumping the work and ideas of Professor Richard Wolff who's been in high demand by talk shows recently, like the Renegade Inc show I linked to yesterday. The place to go to catch all his writings and media interactions is his website, where there're four new links just in the past two days. Like I wrote, the man's in demand.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 8 2020 19:28 utc | 28

karlof1 | Apr 8 2020 19:28 utc | 28 (and all)

This may be ... ah "perfidious commie lies"...

"The Project for a New American Century and the Age of Bioweapons: 20 Years of Psychological Terror", Matthew Ehret (theduran dot com)

"...ttedly, whether or not the current coronavirus pandemic is a bioweapon is not yet fully proven (although growing body of evidence asserts that it is, as seen here and here and here and here). What we know for certain are the following facts:

Numbers are being systematically misrepresented to convey much greater rates of death vs infections as dozens of leading medical experts have proven. Contaminated test kits have started showing up in the UK on March 30 and countless false results are showing up since covid test ..."

Nothing to see here, move along...

(there's the whistle, chowtime's over...)

Posted by: Walter | Apr 8 2020 20:06 utc | 29

I ought to have also mentioned this> In re not-hoax really a ringer germz...T M opines>

Panic and Political Absurdity in the Face of the Pandemic (Thierry Meyssan)

"...y, the great epidemics that wiped out national economies were almost all followed by numerous overthrows of the executives. The one at Covid-19 should be no exception to this rule, no matter how many deaths it may cause. That is why political leaders around the world are making decisions that they know are unnecessary, just to show their fellow citizens that they have done everything in their power.

Social psychology shows that fear is not proportional to the danger, but to not being able to assess and control it..."

And he goes on with subversive ideas...

Entirely delusion, who could doubt it?
by Thierry Meyssan

Posted by: Walter | Apr 8 2020 20:18 utc | 30

Posted by: Walter | Apr 8 2020 20:18 utc | 30

It's been a while since I checked out Meyssan. He is always entertaining and sometimes informative too, sort of like Helmer. In this case I agree with his take, I think chaos looms and the people who claim to rule are pretending to do something; but all speculations about this or that future outcome are, well, speculative, maintaining the illusion of control is what it's all about now. Nobody really knows how the pandemic is going to work out. What is already baked in is a big hit on the global economy as it once was, details yet to be determined. Pepe gets into that a little.


Posted by: Bemildred | Apr 8 2020 20:40 utc | 31

Canthama linked to this excellent recap via map of the War on Yemen. Do note the 2014 start date, much longer than many realize.

Walter @29&30--

COVID-19 related deaths are being both under- and overcounted as revealed through the ongoing discussion of that topic. IMO, it no longer materially matters if it was natural or manipulated unless it can be proven to be related to the sort of plot portrayed in the Bond film Moonraker. I like to hear the situation described by other voices unafraid to speak of the realities past and present that we're now experiencing: It's all Wolff for the first 20 minutes once it gets going.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 8 2020 21:11 utc | 32

This is only indirectly related, so perhaps it will pass muster here. A year or so ago, out in tribal lands there was a project to encourage Native Americans to eat wholesome foods (I think it may still be operating in some areas.) It's called Mogro, and the trucks stocked what you would find in a good small food market - some organics, some local produce, and other non-GMO products. Lots of fresh veggies. The truck came once a week, parked in a central area, and folk were able to shop. I found this very convenient, no excess driving, the food came to us.

The project didn't stop because it wasn't popular; it was. It stopped because funds ran out. The same protocols of distancing, limits on purchases and wearing masks could work without the discomfort of leaving one's own neighborhood to shop, a reinstatement of mom and pop stores so to speak. Everyone gets a piece of the pie.

Just a thought.

Posted by: juliania | Apr 8 2020 21:15 utc | 33

Here's the opinion of the extra-official Labour Party newspaper, The Morning Star, about the EU's policies against the COVID-19:

The European Union still refuses to confront the coronavirus crisis

Looks like dr. Ferrari is with the reason.

Posted by: vk | Apr 8 2020 21:24 utc | 34

juliania @33--

In some areas, there exist the inverse of Farmer's Markets--Farmer's Subscriptions: Each subscriber pays a fee at the beginning of the Spring in exchange for the weekly delivery of a box of produce chosen by the producer--some providing want/wish lists and others not. In some cases, delivery's door-to-door or to a central drop-off location as you describe. Here in Oregon, we have an Organic Farmers listing service that includes those offering such services, which exist mostly in the Willamette Valley, not on the coast where I reside, although we do have Farmer's Markets. Perhaps this year the system will change and offer more delivery, provided the customer base has income to buy.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 8 2020 21:30 utc | 35

JOB'S DONE
The Jewish Chronicle and the Jewish News are closing down, two days after Starmer's apologised to it for 'anti-semitism' in the Labour Party.

"...The Chronicle was already reporting losses of approximately £1.5 million on its operating costs of about £4.9m in 2018, as well as losses from the previous two years. Reserves of its parent company, the non-profit Kessler Foundation, have been exhausted.
(NOTE THIS WELL)
"Last June, a seven-figure cash sum was donated by 20 individuals, families and charitable trusts to the paper, which has been highly critical of Labour under former leader Jeremy Corbyn over his life-long solidarity with Palestine.

"A month after the cash injection, editor Stephen Pollard wrote in an editorial, referring to the party’s leadership: “We want to see them removed from any significant role in public life.”
"In February, the Chronicle agreed to pay “substantial” damages and legal costs to Labour activist Audrey White, from Liverpool, for four articles that it admitted had “untrue” claims of anti-semitism following an investigation by press regulator Ipso.
"The Chronicle, established in 1841, is the oldest continuously published Jewish newspaper in the world."
For the full story
https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/b/jewish-chronicle-and-jewish-news-seek-liquidation-citing-losses-caused-covid-19

No doubt Mr Pollard will be will rewarded for his efforts.

Posted by: bevin | Apr 8 2020 21:48 utc | 36

Question for the bar,

You’ve all heard of the Thucydides Trap. Assuming the baseline scenario was continuing OBOR expansion and eventual technological and military supremacy, how does coronavirus — a deus ex machina — affect that baseline?

We’ve seen tremendous outcry by imperial media against China, in terms of the virus origin and also in the quality of product China has been contributing or selling cheaply to the world. Will it persuade at least a few European poodles to avoid OBOR? More than just a few? What else?

And who benefits more from the new scenario? China or USA?

And does that “cui bono” analysis suggest anything about the origin?

Posted by: wunsacon lives | Apr 8 2020 22:00 utc | 37

bevin #20

Please tell us who "they are"? If you are referring to the Capitalist ruling class is it not reasonable to suspect that self preservation would be high on their list of priorities? And that they cannot exist without the capitalist system?

First read Giants by Peter Phillips.

Self preservation is high on their list but humans embalmed in hubris make mistakes. The Venetians made said error in the early 1600's and only just saved their arses.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 8 2020 22:14 utc | 38

Currency Reset

https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/2020/04/06/the-covid-illusion-and-the-currency-reset/

Surprised (unless I missed it) - that no-one has linked to or discussed this.


Posted by: DM | Apr 8 2020 22:29 utc | 39

Walter @29--

Just finished Ehret's essay and admit there's merit to his warning. However, his reliance on Trump to be the savior/game changer IMO is very misplaced:

"If Trump acts decisively with courage and intelligence, there is still a chance that sovereign nation states may yet stay in the drivers’ seat and use this crisis as an opportunity to force through a debt jubilee, banking reform and new Bretton Woods emergency conference to establish a foundation for a new just economic system. If Trump is unsuccessful in this task, it is more than a little scary to think about what hell will beset the world in the coming months and years."

Even if Trump suddenly becomes something he's certainly not, "hell will still beset the world" as the current system is in deep structural crisis from which there's only one logical exit and it cannot be maintained by any amount of military force particularly given the current distribution of geoeconomic power--the West ain't got it anymore.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 8 2020 22:40 utc | 40

DM @39--

Yes, it's been discussed and dismissed as Libertarian malarkey.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 8 2020 22:44 utc | 41

@ Posted by: Christian J Chuba | Apr 8 2020 17:04 utc | 17

I'm from Singapore, and I can say with great certainty that rest of Asia including Singapore are complete amateurs in COVID control compared to China.

Despite a huge surge in cases in Singapore, lockdown measures have been heightened but there's still no mandatory masking, no mandatory temperature taking and QR individual tracking on public transport or markets like what China is doing for 3 months. It's a miracle we have held up this long looking back at it.

Posted by: JW | Apr 8 2020 22:47 utc | 42

Something else important is happening out there?

Posted by: hopehely #26

Indeed there is. Try removing the blinkers. Read Michael Hudson perhaps, take a peek at the ruins of past civilisations and consider their times and fates.

Music is always a major 'something else important'.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 8 2020 22:48 utc | 43

@wunsacon lives #37
Thucydides Trap is Washington Beltway Bandit nonsense.
Among other things - it conveniently overlooks the entirely peaceful US/UK transition in the World War 1/World War 2 time period.
Among other things, the real point of the description was the outcome of the Peloponessian war: which was diminishment of Greek economies and population in the entire region, not just the take-down of Athens.
The historical lesson is supposed to be that going to war due to pride and arrogance is bad, but the Beltway Bandit version is that taking down a rising power works because Sparta won.

Posted by: c1ue | Apr 8 2020 22:53 utc | 44

wunsacon lives #37

China will find willing partners for OBOR in Europe. It already has a few afaik. Then the USA is further challenged.

There are at least two alternatives to war for the USA: accept that globalisation is flawed as a policy of dominance and evolve within the new world order that their capitalism inadvertently created. Secondly return to manufacturing and develop products equal to the Chinese rate of invention and failing that reapportion capital accumulation and build a civil mutually supportive society.

There is plenty of time for both.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 8 2020 23:03 utc | 45

All. I agree Ehret's a "believer", ie a nut. Nevertheless nuts tend to speak the truth but say it slant. Agree Trumpie is, ah, also a nut.

Meyssan also? No so much. Meyssan pied noir I think, has a valuable point of view shaped by a cynic's eye and his history.

Everyone sees another part, and views with prejudice and nuance, some elephantine surface...

Mrs Wally planted, transplanted, a bay laurel tree...and lots more. Planted buckwheat too. This may be more important... Wally cleaned up the "flour mill" and put things away for the next job in the shop. type drill-press picture>
tinyurl dot com/toz68zn . Then he took a long nap... waiting for the long flat leather best to arrive from Pennsylvania (hard to get!)

I tend to the idea that the live exercise has run up on the rocky shoals of Reality, and "they" (who are those in actual power) are in their quaint and foolish ways, blinded by the gods of war they've conjured up, are panicking, while yet pursuing the glorious goal of global domination, or at the least killing Persia as a last and futile "gesture'... Considering that "they" are educated to the celestial level of graduating from third rate 2 year junior college (westpoint etc) such foolish desperations seem pretty pathetic. Yet so long as the army obeys...

You know? They may have forgotten than no plan survives the first contact with Mr Chine (or Mr Ivan either). Now "they" are in "whaddawedoonow!" panic. Panic and Fear being the attendants of Mars, the summoning up of War may be expected to be the Rubicon-crossing that will sweep "them" away, and (ugh!) bring forth a not-hollywood revolution.

Wally prefers 1960...

Posted by: Walter | Apr 8 2020 23:15 utc | 46

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 8 2020 16:04 utc | 10 For those who do not/cannot do AssBook, Pepe Escobar has included his post referenced by spudski @7 on his VK feed.

So I go over there - and the morons at VK pop up a message telling me my browser is out of date. The current release of Firefox is 75.0. I *have* 75.0 - updated last night actually.

Web sites are mostly run by idiots and morons who don't actually know what they're doing.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 8 2020 23:24 utc | 47

MIKE TYSON – “EVERYONE HAS A PLAN UNTIL THEY GET PUNCHED IN THE MOUTH”.

I can't get past the faith in Trump, I have trouble with Meyssan for same reason, but he is more interesting, as you say.

Otherwise about right. Hence wondering why Pompeo looks so chipper.

Posted by: Bemildred | Apr 8 2020 23:26 utc | 48

@ hopehely | Apr 8 2020 18:49 utc | 26 Something else important is happening out there?
___________________________________________

I can't tell if you're teasing or proving my point. If you truly feel that there is absolutely nothing else going on in the world that's worth noticing and discussing, perhaps you should ask B. that question.

Posted by: Ort | Apr 8 2020 23:30 utc | 49

Just a preliminary about Wolff's opinion on Galloway's whatever.

I know it's a figure of speech, but when Wolff open he says "we have allowed..." he's starting off with the assumption that "we" were in power.

Some might find this, ah, unrealistic...

I like Wolff, and tend to agree (in my amateurish way) with Wolff and Hudson. This is partly because they're honest. Partly because I thing they're correct in perception and logic.

However I think their implied assumptions ignore the reality of the war. It's a "overton window" dilemma for them, I suspect.

(erratum my 146 for "leather best" read "leather belt")

Posted by: Walter | Apr 8 2020 23:43 utc | 50

DM @39--
Yes, it's been discussed and dismissed as Libertarian malarkey.
Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 8 2020 22:44 utc | 41

Oh, thank God for that. For a moment there I thought that there were a whole bunch of mad bastards running the world.

Posted by: DM | Apr 8 2020 23:51 utc | 51

Oh, I forgot. Mirabile dictu! Black Agenda Report dot com tells us that there's a call for a US General Strike starting 01 May...

(Wally loves strikes, and remembers some really great times. Remembers the pickets with their huntin' rifles carefully shooting out a few lights while the cops looked away)

Withal> Call for a General Strike Beginning May 1st / Working People Must Build Solidarity in Crisis / Students May Strike for “Social Welfare” During Crisis

Posted by: Walter | Apr 8 2020 23:53 utc | 52

Posted by: vk | Apr 8 2020 15:13 utc | 2 So, no nuclear fusion, no genetic engineering, no other types of renewable energy, no nanotechnology in sight. Even what they call "AI" is not really AI, but just advanced learning algorithms at best.

That's what most of the AI hype is about - technology that's been around for a couple decades...

As to nanoscience, however, I'm not so sure:

How China Is The Future of Nanoscience
https://tinyurl.com/w48jzhs

Some of that stuff seems impressive. I'm not following nanotech research lately as closely as I might have previously.

This (PDF) document might help to describe some of the research being done there:
Small Science in Big China
https://tinyurl.com/wq5tm93

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 9 2020 0:21 utc | 53

spudski #7

I hope this is the correct thread to post this on -

Thank you spudski. That was supreme fear porn so it would be correct to post it on any thread right now :))

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 9 2020 0:28 utc | 54

Walter #46

More power to your pen. :))

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 9 2020 0:42 utc | 55

Walter #46

Wally cleaned up the "flour mill" and put things away for the next job in the shop. type drill-press picture>
tinyurl dot com/toz68zn .

That is one awesome Heath Robinson drill press!! I trust you have spare gears for that. I have seen some mighty innovative tools in my days but THAT is extraordinary.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 9 2020 0:50 utc | 56

Those amerikans who do loathe trump tend to do so on the basis of either his deceit or greed, maybe both. This has always puzzled me because I doubt there has ever been an amerikan prez who got where he got by not lying or helping himself to whatever was going, so why the fuss over Trump?
The truth is that what gets amerikans who loathe Trump so much is something many of them won't admit to themselves lest it reflect poorly upon the 'great' nation (in your dreams, fool), that is of course that D Trump is a so obvious he should be certified, moron.

I have just run up against another example of Trump's moronic stupidity, most are aware of Trump's foolish decision to prohibit any safety wear from being exported out of amerika - some may even quietly applaud it even though apparently occupied Palestine doesn't count while genuinely useful allies because they are neighbours such as Canada & Mexico, do count.
After I dropped a 50 pack of disposable masks to an aged wrinkly yesterday, I copped a phone call this a.m. from her thanking me and asking me if I could get her a couple of pairs of Bolle medical goggles. The district around where I live is a favoured retirement spot for not poor kiwis as well as some overseas retirees (the latter of whom I tend to steer clear). Anyway some of these types may be ancient, but they are extremely fashion conscious hence the request for Bolle brand goggles.
I decided to indulge someone who had been a particularly generous donor as she had subsidised the cost of masks going to a mob of needier less fortunate types.
So I did a search for 'Bolle medical goggles' and unsurprisingly amazon was the only reliable retailer in the results. When I went to the listing the goggles appeared with no price, but a notice above the product description stating
"Due to increased demand, we temporarily have reduced product selection available for delivery to your region. We are working to improve selection availability as soon as possible".
Sure enough when I clicked the link for all buying options another notice informed "Currently, there are no sellers that can deliver this item to your location."
Amazon politely informing by deceitfully claiming unavailability that orangeman had kyboshed the deal. To make sure that was the case I clicked on a wide range of different medical goggles & got exactly the same result.
So then I went to the gang at aliexpress & tried the same thing a huge panopoly of medical goggles opened up, no Bolle - I suppose a corporation as brand conscious as that ensures everything manufactured for them in China is shipped to amerika for distribution to restrict some of the bootlegging.
I did find a pair of medical goggles that were identical to the Bolle one at about 10% of the price. The big difference was the wide elastic strap which said Olay instead of Bolle - some of these chinese copywriters are poets, the name looks like Oakley and sounds like Bolle, two big names in one, eh.
So I rang the retiree up telling her the bad news. She wasn't the least distressed. "Don't worry I'll take them, I have a pair of Bolle ski goggles in the garage, I don't ski any more, I'll take the head band off them" she said.
This lady will remember the disservice (yeah I know fashion not a huge inconvenience to a normal person but a biggie to some) and will consider amerika let her down when she needed a pair of goggles to keep her safe. She was most interested in aliexpress she had been unaware of the place before so I emailed her the link. In the end she ordered a dozen pair "Give the others to people who need them please".
That is a typical result of moronic behaviour. It made me happy because I have avoided buying amerikan where possible since Gulf war 1 and maybe there is a now new convert.

Posted by: A User | Apr 9 2020 0:51 utc | 57

A User | Apr 9 2020 0:51 utc | 57 Yes. Sad for an old American to read, but yes.

About Trumpie... Raised and curated by TV and Hollywood Murkinz are in a condition of curated suspension of disbelief. That's to say transient insanity. Trumpie-the Clown, as Wolff said (see above Karlov1), and his fellows of dubious character, are doing a theatrical routine.

Theater of course is part of Politics.

Theater consists, in a sense, of lies.

Recalling the Commandante the essential character of revolution is always telling the people the truth.

When, as your well-off lady will, the people discard their belief in the show...look see tell and say truth...then...ah...then. Is this obvious?

Orwell and Comrade Fidel...Truth is a Revolutionary condition. Trumpie cannot see or say true, as he represents and is revangist. It follows that he must fail.

Tell the truth to shame the devil. Speak Truth to Power. These ideas are revolutionary (and prohibited) only when the ground is fertile for revolution. Only when the gods require it.

Posted by: Walter | Apr 9 2020 1:16 utc | 58

Abby Martin: "Democracy is dead in America. Throwing everything into electoral politics where we try to get a progressive insurgency in a right-wing kleptocracy is a pipe dream. We must resurrect a massive anti-war movement and labor struggle to demand the policies we deserve"

Posted by: Walter | Apr 9 2020 1:19 utc | 59

With all the masks being worn by the populous, what of facial recognition, and state control? Or, are we beyond that and are in whole body recognition now? London has the most cameras of any city in the world.
What will the state do? Of course, one has to acknowledge ownership of an electronic device such cell phone excludes one from the picture (pun intended)
What will the state do when the populous gives up their electronic devices?

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | Apr 9 2020 1:33 utc | 60

In Alberta, where oil is less than 45 a barrel most of the steam has gone out of the separatist-Make Alberta Great Again- Wexit movement.
But Trump is still popular as are theories that the Coronavirus is just another plot to shut down the oil industry, according to Gillian Steward in the Toronto Star

"...As in this ridiculous Tweet posted by Downing, a former RCMP officer and Wexit’s head honcho, right after schools and child care centres were closed in Alberta: “If Alberta shuts down schools and daycares, just about every parent has to stay home from work to care for their kids.... SHUTTING DOWN our Economy. Just like the Feds want. The “Climate change” scare failed. Don’t fall for the new scare.”

"Downing is a fan of Donald Trump’s approach to the pandemic, which makes no sense at all given that the death rate in the U.S is four times per capita what it is in Canada.

"The Wexit spokesman is even advising people to get a prescription for hydroxychloroquine, the medication that Trump keeps promoting as a cure for COVID-19 even though there is no evidence of its effectiveness against the virus but there are clearly serious side effects.

"That kind of promotion via social media may have been one of the reasons why Alberta’s Chief Medical Officer, Deena Hinshaw, last week made a point of warning doctors and pharmacists not to prescribe it as a treatment for COVID-19..."

Trump, right wing weirdos and hydroxychloroquine is there are pattern here?

Posted by: bevin | Apr 9 2020 1:46 utc | 61

bevin asks: ... is there a pattern here?

Still pushing the Big Pharma line.

Almost as reprehensible as your defense of Epstein and Weinstein.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 9 2020 2:06 utc | 63


"Self preservation is high on their list but humans embalmed in hubris make mistakes. The Venetians made said error in the early 1600's and only just saved their arses..." uncle tungsten@38

The first part I know, it is a point that I have often made.
It does not contradict my argument that the ruling class does not deliberately set out to ruin the system that sustains it. It may do so, will do so, but not deliberately.

Your reference to Venice in the early 1600s I do not understand, could you explain what you are referring to?

The Giants idea would seem to be that there are a small number of ultra wealthy/powerful people at the top. Few would disagree with that but it is no sense a refutation of the theory of class conflict. Is it intended to be one?

Posted by: bevin | Apr 9 2020 2:08 utc | 64

Sakineh Bagoom

Quite likely the reason the so called west is not pushing people to wear masks. Also the earlier crap about masks not protecting the user.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 9 2020 2:23 utc | 65

According to Kissinger, there is a new opportunity to create the new world order. Trump’s patriotic and populist rhetoric is a part of this game. The opposition is attracted by the hope of change and its force can be used to create the desired synthesis between the Liberal/Left call for a global climate-dictatorship in order to save the planet, and Conservative/Right call for a surveillance-fascism in order keep the nation safe from immigrants, drugs and crime.
Trump is no threat to the global financial elite, which he himself was born into. He is their trump card in the process of implementing the technocratic nightmare-society . The newly proclaimed global emergency (first for the climate crisis and now for the corona threat) is paving the road for its implementation and Trump plays a big part in this which is why he was chosen. Trump is to be crowned , thanks to corona (crown) virus as a leader of the NWO which is a synthesis between Brave New World and 1984

Trump is faithful only to his own ego, and to his close friends in Big Tech and Big Finance that are operating worldwide to implement a global technocratic agenda using ecoterrorism, financial terrorism and bioterrorism to achieve the necessary support. The solution to be implemented, will be the complete opposite of the promised Utopia.

The solution to this man made crisis combines the dreams from Right-wing nationalists about tighter border control and surveillance of refugees with Left-wing ambitions to control and tax the air we breathe. It also includes a powerful world government, with populations controlled by nationalist local governance subject to global government rules in implementing the New International Economic Order and the 4TH Industrial Revolution

A political–economic Technocracy where freedom becomes a distant memory is just around the corner.

The good news is they don’t need to resort to another war like the first 2 World Wars or even lesser wars that resulted from the GWOT. The herd will accept the end result with relief. This is final show as the curtain descends and we begin the End of History. Remember what used to be as a generation from now there will be no trace or memory of what once was. Good night.

Posted by: Pft | Apr 9 2020 2:56 utc | 66

Survey of 6200 doctors around the world on Coronavirus. https://www.sermo.com/press-releases/
A couple of segments from the survey.

Treatments & Efficacy

The three most commonly prescribed treatments amongst COVID-19 treaters are 56% analgesics, 41% Azithromycin, and 33% Hydroxychloroquine
Hydroxychloroquine usage amongst COVID-19 treaters is 72% in Spain, 49% in Italy, 41% in Brazil, 39% in Mexico, 28% in France, 23% in the U.S., 17% in Germany, 16% in Canada, 13% in the UK and 7% in Japan
Hydroxychloroquine was overall chosen as the most effective therapy amongst COVID-19 treaters from a list of 15 options (37% of COVID-19 treaters)
75% in Spain, 53% Italy, 44% in China, 43% in Brazil, 29% in France, 23% in the U.S. and 13% in the U.K.
The two most common treatment regimens for Hydroxychloroquine were:
(38%) 400mg twice daily on day one; 400 mg daily for five days
(26%) 400mg twice daily on day one; 200mg twice daily for four days
Outside the U.S., Hydroxychloroquine was equally used for diagnosed patients with mild to severe symptoms whereas in the U.S. it was most commonly used for high risk diagnosed patients
Globally, 19% of physicians prescribed or have seen Hydroxychloroquine prophylactically used for high risk patients, and 8% for low risk patients

Average Testing Time

On average tests in the U.S. take 4-5 days, and in 10% of cases the wait is more than 7 days
14% of U.S. physicians and over 50% in all of Europe and Japan report getting test results in 24 hours; in China 73% of doctors get tests back in 24 hours, while 8% get tests back within the hour


Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 9 2020 2:57 utc | 67

Just so all of you self-important mouth breathers understand: I'm back, and all the shit I've been saying these past few days should be becoming clearer to you simpletons. Even to you, Wally, although I don't hold out much hope for Dick Hack, the dumbest fuck here.

Posted by: Haavara Hans | Apr 9 2020 3:03 utc | 68

@67 peter au
interesting figures.

In the US, I think the test time has finally (too late) come down to about 2 days, as of this week. At least in NY state.

---

Our CDC has also issued guidance that "essential" workers should not attempt to self quarantine in case of asymptomatic exposure, and should continue working. I.e. for those subpopulations, herd immunity is still the unspoken strategy - so basically we have to wait until the majority of public-facing essential workers have it. Presumably with policy adjusted as needed for R0 = approximately 1 (for the essential worker population) to minimize the health care load.

Posted by: ptb | Apr 9 2020 3:09 utc | 69

ptb 69

Short testing time dies look to be essential to slowing and stopping the spread. I believe China had it down to 3hrs and all done at the testing station while the patient waited.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 9 2020 3:22 utc | 70

Can someone adequately explain why Covid19 outbreaks on cruise ships have resulted in so few infections and so few fatalities?

We now also have the Zaandam
1200 passengers
850 crew


March 7th, passengers board
March 22nd, first flu-like symptoms become evident

That is an interval of 14 days during which the virus was spread good and hard

April 3rd, 1100 passengers disembark to fly home

Result of the races:
24 days stranded at sea without possibility to disembark

Now therefore, with the Diamond Princess, the Grand Princess and the Zaandam, we have a sample of over 9000 individuals of median age of 65, a large proportions of whom had underlying medical conditions, that have had DIRECT exposure to Covid19 for a very long time in conditions that are ideal for the spread of a virus.

Yet, out of these 9000 individuals we have:

Less than 1000 infected
Less than 10 fatalities only a portion of which tested positive for Covid19

How is this virus so much more contagious and lethal than anything else we have encountered previously?

Anyone?

Posted by: guidoamm | Apr 9 2020 3:43 utc | 71

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa/speed-of-coronavirus-deaths-shocks-doctors-as-new-york-toll-hits-new-high-idUSKBN21Q204

New York, the hardest-hit state in America, on Wednesday reported its highest number of coronavirus-related deaths in a single day with even veteran doctors and nurses expressing shock at the speed with which patients were declining and dying....

...Patients “look fine, feel fine, then you turn around and they’re unresponsive,”...

...So far New York City’s announced death toll has reflected only laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 diagnoses. More than 200 people are dying at home in the city daily during the pandemic, authorities said.

That same story on the speed at which coronovirus patients can take a turn for the worse and then die comes from every center that has been flooded with patients.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 9 2020 3:50 utc | 72

Posted by: Walter | Apr 9 2020 1:19 utc | 59 Abby Martin: "Democracy is dead in America. Throwing everything into electoral politics where we try to get a progressive insurgency in a right-wing kleptocracy is a pipe dream."

Yes.

"We must resurrect a massive anti-war movement and labor struggle to demand the policies we deserve"

Good luck with that, Abby.

As Percival Rose said on the Nikita TV show: "That ain't gonna happen."

This stuff comes from people who envisage themselves as orators on a par with Adolf Hitler - able to sway millions of people to "the right path."

Bullshit. There are no such people - certainly not Sanders, certainly not Abby, and certainly not *these* millions of Americans who are *ignorant* of just about everything involving economics, foreign policy, the state of the corruption in their government (you have zero clue, folks), or any actual, workable *answers* to the problems the US and the world are facing.

They can't even fuck in the bedroom properly. I mean, seriously? Ninety percent of them can't walk down a city street without getting in my way because they have their nose stuck in a smartphone watching cat videos.

Get real. *Nothing* is going to get better until one or both of two things happens: 1) The US loses a war - and by "lose", I mean loses a *significant* portion of its military assets and is *forced* to *retreat* - not just "withdraw" like Vietnam or Iraq or Afghanistan (someday), or 2) a major economic "collapse" - by "collapse" I mean a depression like the Great Depression where literally scores of millions are out of a job and destitute.

Until that happens, nothing - absolutely *nothing* - will change. The coronavirus will *not* do it. The recession the coronavirus produces will *not* do it. No *election* will do it. And damn sure no bunch of lame-ass "progressives" (the title these idiots claim is even lame!) will do it.

So deal.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 9 2020 4:18 utc | 73

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 9 2020 3:50 utc | 72 ...Patients “look fine, feel fine, then you turn around and they’re unresponsive,”...

In the early days, that's what was reported from Wuhan (allegedly - I personally haven't seen any such reports) - people walking down the street suddenly die in the street.

Something wrong with that. For one thing, the progression of this disease seems well known at this point. There are initial symptoms indistinguishable from a cold or regular flu, then shortness of breath as the virus moves from the throat and nasal passages into the lungs, then slow or rapid progression of shortness of breath until it is hard to breath if you have to get up to take a pee, at which point you're put onto oxygen, whereupon if you don't respond to treatment you get progressively worse at a fairly rapid pace until you are overcome by systemic shock or heart failure or something of that nature. Or you recover. Once you're bad enough to be put on invasive oxygen (intubation), your prognosis sucks (50-50 to 70-30 against, according to three studies.)

But I still haven't heard this "they just drop dead" business outside of early Wuhan reporting.

If the doctors monitoring you are seeing people who "look fine and feel fine - especially the latter - then there's something wrong with either the disease progression concept - or these doctors are *not* closely monitoring their patients - which would not surprise me given their overloaded hospitals.

Or if that did happen in Wuhan and it is happening in New York, then New York has the same strain as Wuhan, which may not be the same strain everyone else in the world has.

Anyone have any links that address this "sudden death syndrome" for this virus?

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 9 2020 4:33 utc | 74

guidoamm #71

How is this virus so much more contagious and lethal than anything else we have encountered previously?

Anyone?

Thanks but first can you please post covid fear story on the dedicated thread.

secondly: maybe the virus just picks on USians and Canadians because of their hubris and wealth.

Who were on the ships you reference, where was their country of origin, do they eat noodles?

Those infection and death rates sound about normal to me. Perhaps this virus is aggressively infectious to about the same percentage of people as normal flu. It may have a higher propensity to develop double pneumonia than normal flu and that's why Intensive Care wards get overwhelmed.

That's what many professionals are saying and experiencing. If this fearful situation flips Trump and his camp dogs out of government then I say 'well done'.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 9 2020 4:54 utc | 75

@57 "I did find a pair of medical goggles that were identical to the Bolle one at about 10% of the price"

It's an open secret for any low-tech product you find online on Chinese E-commerce sites that looks identical to its branded counterpart, they both are in fact the exact same thing that came out from the same Chinese factory except with maybe worse QC on the former. In this case paying 900% more for marketing to me is a massive idiot tax.

Posted by: JW | Apr 9 2020 4:54 utc | 76

Well, here's a couple links on the subject of "sudden death" - particularly of young people...

The first one basically concludes, "well, we don't know why..." That's not particularly helpful. Not even any speculation. Also, there is not much on the guy's background - he could have had an unknown heart complication (see second article). Absent an autopsy - which they aren't doing often under these conditions - we can't be sure what the real cause was. And this is only one case that made the news precisely because it is considered rare.

Note: This is *not* intended to suggest that coronavirus doesn't kill people, but only underlying conditions do - like some other commenters here are pushing.

The mystery of why the coronavirus kills some young people
https://tinyurl.com/sa2hmey

A new potential risk of COVID-19: Sudden cardiac death
https://tinyurl.com/qnx4mro

The only other case I found was a woman who died despite allegedly being healthy - but her picture shows a very round face, indicating overweight - and we know from one report that a massive number of deaths are of patients who are overweight. I found a graphic that said diabetes was associated with 9% of deaths - and diabetes is invariably accompanied by "metabolic syndrome" which is a code for "overweight" (as well as a set of other conditions.)

We do know that sometimes patients think they're getting better around day 10, which is because the virus is leaving the throat and nasal passages and moving into the lungs. Then they "suddenly" get worse - like the guy in the first article. And this can be very rapid. So possibly it can be rapid enough to render moot any treatment the patient could get. But you'd think doctors monitoring a patient in the hospital could detect this once the patient is already under treatment.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 9 2020 4:55 utc | 77

b can I appeal to you to sweep all corona posts out of this thread and remind all to keep it locked down to its dedicated thread.

We kept it together well with the presidential election thread but now WE are behaving like a virus.

Safe distancing is about keeping all covid conjecture in a class 4 containment chamber.

Apologies if I cause offence. 😵

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 9 2020 5:01 utc | 78

By the way, apologies to B - this thread was supposed to be non-coronavirus, and I tried to avoid that all day, but everyone already smashed that, so I might as well pile on...

People Without Coronavirus Symptoms Can Spread Disease—Here’s What That Means
https://tinyurl.com/tghjpkw

Yes, it does happen...


Like everything else related to Covid-19, which has scientists worldwide scrambling to understand it from genetic, clinical, epidemiological, and sociological points of view, we cannot yet be 100% sure. However, a careful study of 468 infector-infected pairs found that 12% involved transmission before the infector was symptomatic.

Examination of 124 Wuhan cases with a clear contact history showed an incubation period of 5 days (range: 1–11 days). It found that 73% of secondary cases were infected before the onset of symptoms in first case. It estimated the mismatch period to be three days.

A fine analysis of cases from China (N=135) & Singapore (N=93) found that the incubation period was about 7–9 days. And there was pre-symptomatic transmission, with infection occurring on average 2.9 days (China) and 2.6 days (Singapore) before symptom onset in the infector.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 9 2020 5:09 utc | 79

Richard Steven Hack 77

Apart from other health issues, it is only individual immune system that dictates the severity of illness in any person. There is no age redline a person crosses over, one side of which is at risk and one side safe.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 9 2020 5:15 utc | 80

Peter AU1 #72

I replied to you on the Kushner coronavirus thread.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 9 2020 5:20 utc | 81

This does not make me happy...unless it actually translates into doctors making those "nuanced" decisions - which they probably don't have time for today - and *still* managing to save lives without using ventilators...

With ventilators running out, doctors say the machines are overused for Covid-19
https://tinyurl.com/v7tlpve


What’s driving this reassessment is a baffling observation about Covid-19: Many patients have blood oxygen levels so low they should be dead. But they’re not gasping for air, their hearts aren’t racing, and their brains show no signs of blinking off from lack of oxygen.

That is making critical care physicians suspect that blood levels of oxygen, which for decades have driven decisions about breathing support for patients with pneumonia and acute respiratory distress, might be misleading them about how to care for those with Covid-19.


The first batch of evidence relates to how often the machines fail to help. “Contrary to the impression that if extremely ill patients with Covid-19 are treated with ventilators they will live and if they are not, they will die, the reality is far different,” said geriatric and palliative care physician Muriel Gillick of Harvard Medical School.

Researchers in Wuhan, for instance, reported that, of 37 critically ill Covid-19 patients who were put on mechanical ventilators, 30 died within a month. In a U.S. study of patients in Seattle, only one of the seven patients older than 70 who were put on a ventilator survived; just 36% of those younger than 70 did. And in a study published by JAMA on Monday, physicians in Italy reported that nearly 90% of 1,300 critically ill patients with Covid-19 were intubated and put on a ventilator; only 11% received noninvasive ventilation. One-quarter died in the ICU; 58% were still in the ICU, and 16% had been discharged.

Older patients who do survive risk permanent cognitive and respiratory damage from being on heavy sedation for many days if not weeks and from the intubation, Gillick said.

And relevant to the "sudden death" issue...


To be “more nuanced about who we intubate,” as she suggests, starts with questioning the significance of oxygen saturation levels. Those levels often “look beyond awful,” said Scott Weingart, a critical care physician in New York and host of the “EMCrit” podcast. But many can speak in full sentences, don’t report shortness of breath, and have no signs of the heart or other organ abnormalities that hypoxia can cause.

“The patients in front of me are unlike any I’ve ever seen,” Kyle-Sidell told Medscape about those he cared for in a hard-hit Brooklyn hospital. “They looked a lot more like they had altitude sickness than pneumonia.”

In other words, we could be looking at the medical profession killing patients with the wrong treatment or the wrong use of the right treatment...

That would not surprise me...medical people are just as "knee-jerk" and "herd followers" as anyone else... "This is the way we've always done it..." Thanks, Doc...

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 9 2020 5:20 utc | 82

74 "- people walking down the street suddenly die in the street."

I am talking about hospital patients and the article I linked talked about hospital patients. The sudden downturn in health and sometimes sudden death is to do with immune system sudden over reaction. For some reason the corona virus triggers this over reaction of the immune system and apparently is what makes it different to other forms of pneumonia.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 9 2020 5:22 utc | 83

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 9 2020 5:15 utc | 80 Richard Steven Hack 77 Apart from other health issues, it is only individual immune system that dictates the severity of illness in any person. There is no age redline a person crosses over, one side of which is at risk and one side safe.

I'm obviously aware of that - I'm not a moron (regardless of the opinion of various trolls here.)

The question was about why some doctors are claiming that some patients (and some *apparently* healthy young people) appear fine, then suddenly die. Obviously this happens in other medical situations as well. But someone evidently made a point about it in the cited article, so I wondered whether there was something about this that was specific to coronavirus, especially because of the (alleged) reports from Wuhan that people were "dying in the streets." (Again, I never read anything specific about that personally.)

Now in the piece I just posted about ventilators, we have a possible answer: their lungs may be working fine to remove carbon dioxide even if they can't fully utilize the oxygen they're getting. So because ventilators are the alleged solution, the docs slap them on ventilators - which makes things worse.

Of course, that's just a theory at this point, like everything else.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 9 2020 5:30 utc | 84

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 9 2020 5:22 utc | 83 74 "I am talking about hospital patients and the article I linked talked about hospital patients."

I was referring to both hospital patients and the reported Wuhan events. Sudden death is sudden death in either case.

"The sudden downturn in health and sometimes sudden death is to do with immune system sudden over reaction. For some reason the corona virus triggers this over reaction of the immune system and apparently is what makes it different to other forms of pneumonia."

Sigh...yes...I am well aware of ""cytokine storms".

You might ask me first what I'm aware of before lecturing me. You might also read the referenced articles before doing so. I raise these issues for the specific reasons I state in the post where I raise them.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 9 2020 5:34 utc | 85

RSh "You might ask me first what I'm aware of before lecturing me. You might also read the referenced articles before doing so. I raise these issues for the specific reasons I state in the post where I raise them."

Where do you get this shit from, also the crap about people dying on the streets of Wuhan.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 9 2020 5:49 utc | 86

This thread which has a very simple instruction: "Non-corona news & views ..." is being hacked with corona virus posts only, apparently without consequences. At the same in other threads, sensible viewpoints on the same issue are being deleted and users banned.

Nothing to see here?

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 9 2020 6:26 utc | 87

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 9 2020 5:49 utc | 86 Where do you get this shit from, also the crap about people dying on the streets of Wuhan.

Where I got "this shit" from is precisely what I said in my post.

So now you want to bitch about my sources? Go take that up with my sources, not me.

I'll repeat myself one more time: I raised the issue I raised in post 74 and 77 for the reasons and sources cited in those posts and *your* post where you quoted a doctor as saying patients in hospital were dying suddenly. I related that to what I had read weeks ago in someone's comment - and I say *again* I have no idea where I read it or whether it was true - about people "dying in the streets" in Wuhan. I specifically stated that I was not aware of any such cases myself. But I *wondered* if the two phenomena - *if* they are *real* - were related *or* whether it was a case of doctors not monitoring their patients closely enough.

So I asked for any links from anybody who might have some. Then I posted a couple links to articles on the subject of young people dying and whether ventilators might be causing more problems than they solve, which *might* have something to do with it - or not. I explicitly said it was just a theory.

In response, you decided to lecture me about some obvious crap about how people of any age can die. I know a lot of people like to insult people by making what would appear to be reasonable sounding statements - which anyone over the age of ten would know - solely for the purpose of conveying contempt for the reader while at the same time not being banned from a site by being an asshole. This is called being "passive aggressive."

Well, I don't do "passive aggressive." I do "aggressive" and then I do "thermonuclear war."

Now unless you have something with a link attached to it that contributes to the issue I raised, kindly piss off, mate. Other than the fact that I was wondering about the issue raised in the article linked in your post, this has nothing to do with you.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 9 2020 7:02 utc | 88

Richard Steven Hack 88

I posted some quotes and link to a Reuters article. You have lost the plot for some reason I don't understand at the moment. Perhaps it is just normal for an American

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 9 2020 7:06 utc | 89

RSH

The simple point I noticed in that article was that what the New York doctors were saying about how suddenly a coronavirus patient could take a turn for the worse was the same as Italian and Chinese doctors had stated earlier.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 9 2020 7:12 utc | 90

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 9 2020 7:12 utc | 90 The simple point I noticed in that article was that what the New York doctors were saying about how suddenly a coronavirus patient could take a turn for the worse was the same as Italian and Chinese doctors had stated earlier.

*I understand that.*

Nothing I subsequently posted in 74 or 77 was in any way intended a response to *you*. I was simply picking up on what the *article* said and then connected it to some random comment I read weeks ago about Wuhan, and whether or not what it really meant was whether doctors were doing their jobs right. Then I went looking for some additional information and found a piece about younger people dying and a piece on whether ventilators were the proper treatment and thus wondered about a possible connection.

You need to follow my train of thought across those two posts. I didn't &lose* the plot, I picked up on it and linked it to other things.

Perhaps we are talking to cross-purposes. But you really shouldn't have said to me in effect that "anyone can die". That came across as condescending - and condescension triggers my aggression. As I said in my response to *that*, I'm not a moron (regardless of what the trolls here think - anyone else, for that matter.)

My apologies if I confused you as to my intentions.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hackr | Apr 9 2020 7:32 utc | 91

b,
please restart this thread and announce in capital letters NON CORONA NEWS &VIEWS.

Even if the Corona topic has its value, the world is in an utmost turmoil because and despite of Corona, and that is worth discussing as well. If there is anyone willing to.

Posted by: Paleene | Apr 9 2020 8:22 utc | 92

Good interview with John Pilger on the Corona virus response in the Uk, and related topics.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/55038.htm

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Apr 9 2020 8:43 utc | 93

91 "But you really shouldn't have said to me in effect that "anyone can die""

Where did you pull this from. No wonder I was confused as to what you were on about. I was arguing with your imagination.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 9 2020 8:48 utc | 94

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 9 2020 8:48 utc | 94 Where did you pull this from. No wonder I was confused as to what you were on about. I was arguing with your imagination.

You said in post 80: "Apart from other health issues, it is only individual immune system that dictates the severity of illness in any person. There is no age redline a person crosses over, one side of which is at risk and one side safe."

That's what I mean. That statement is blindingly obvious to anyone over the age of five. I responded: "I'm obviously aware of that - I'm not a moron (regardless of the opinion of various trolls here.)" I then went on to explain the rational for my posts.

Did you miss that exchange? Did I misinterpret your statement? If you did not intend to be condescending, then fine, I'll accept that.

But it's not my imagination that 1) some people - specifically the doctors in the article you cited - appear to be confused about why some persons infected die suddenly (young or old), and 2) whether the ventilator issue might be of relevance. Remember, I said any connection between the two was just a theory, for which I have zero proof - as should be obvious.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 9 2020 9:23 utc | 95

Posted by: Paleene | Apr 9 2020 8:22 utc | 92 b, please restart this thread and announce in capital letters NON CORONA NEWS &VIEWS.

Why not have three threads every day: one for coronavirus (or in response to a specific b post on the subject for that day), one for the election, and one open for other topics?

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 9 2020 9:26 utc | 96

I think you mean non-medical corona news. Corona is the news in politics and business today.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Apr 9 2020 9:46 utc | 97

Why not have three threads every day: one for coronavirus (or in response to a specific b post on the subject for that day), one for the election, and one open for other topics?

Richard Steven Hack #96

So will you politely piss off to the latest covid thread with the Kushner heading and stop blocking the traffic.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 9 2020 9:50 utc | 98

Currently there's an large anti-5G movement based on fake science coming out of the blue. Whether or not this is yet another plot against Huawei from our good friends at the CIA, the West opposing 5G is at mind-blowing levels of stupid when their current wireless infrastructure right now is such complete garbage.

Posted by: JW | Apr 9 2020 9:54 utc | 99

"So will you politely piss off to the latest covid thread with the Kushner heading and stop blocking the traffic."

Happy to. I held off all day because I read the part where b said "non-coronavirus" - until others started posting virus posts. I apologized to b in a post above. Didn't notice too many others doing that.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 9 2020 10:08 utc | 100

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