Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 10, 2020

Assorted Virus News

ABCNews has a sensational report about an alleged epidemic warning report which circulated in November 2019. Some people claim that this proves that there were early cases of the covid-19 disease.  There was likely a report but the insinuation that it was connected to covid-19 comes only from ABCnews.

Intelligence report warned of coronavirus crisis as early as November: Sources

As far back as late November, U.S. intelligence officials were warning that a contagion was sweeping through China’s Wuhan region, changing the patterns of life and business and posing a threat to the population, according to four sources briefed on the secret reporting.

Concerns about what is now known to be the novel coronavirus pandemic were detailed in a November intelligence report by the military's National Center for Medical Intelligence (NCMI), according to two officials familiar with the document’s contents.

The NCMI denies that such a report was made. But we can be sure that it would notice when news about a potential epidemic in China  circulates. That was indeed the case in mid November. The news was not about the novel corona virus but about a small outbreak of bubonic plague from Inner Mongolia:

Three patients have been diagnosed in Beijing with the most dangerous form of the plague – the medieval disease also known as the Black Death.
...
On Tuesday, Beijing authorities announced a municipal hospital had taken in a married couple from Inner Mongolia, a sparsely populated autonomous region in northwest China, seeking treatment for pneumonic plague. One patient is stable while the other is in critical condition but not deteriorating, according to Beijing's health commission.
...
On November 16, authorities diagnosed a third case of pneumonic plague. The man, age 55, is also from Inner Mongolia though authorities said his case was not related in any way to the couple medically evacuated to Beijing. Twenty-eight people who were in close contact with the man have been quarantined and none have exhibited symptoms of the plague.

Of the three versions of the disease, pneumonic plague is the only one that can be transmitted from one person to another by coughing, for example. The other variants are typically spread by infected fleas or animals.

Pneumonic plague has symptoms of respiratory failure similar to pneumonia. Left untreated, it is fatal.
...
Mongolia, which borders the autonomous region where the infected Chinese couple lives, reported two fatal cases of bubonic plague just this year, after the patients ate raw marmot, a species of wild rodent that often carry the offending bacterium. In Mongolia, eating marmot is thought to be good for health.

The covid-19 disease is caused by the SARS-CoV-19 virus, not by bacteria. The three cases in November were caused by a detectable bacteria. The first SARS-Cov-19 case currently known emerged in Wuhan in mid-late December.

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Religious people continue to undermine epidemic control measures:

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German researchers have used flow analysis experiments to test various household material that can be used to make masks. They conclude that high-quality vacuum cleaner bags are the best material usable for the purpose. On page 20 of their English language report (pdf)  they describe and show how to manufacture masks out of them.

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Some people continue to argue that the death rate of covid-19 disease is as low as the death rate of the common flu. We actually do not know the death rate of covid-19 as we do not know how many have had it and how many died from it. Italy, Spain and France have seen more covid-19 death outside of the hospital system than inside. But only the inside numbers are counted in the official tally. There is also increasing concern of long term effects as the recovered patients seem to have a partially reduced lung function. The Case Fatality Rates though, which are the only reliable number we have, are quite high and our decision are based on them.

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Remember this screed from March 12:

Coronavirus burial pits so vast they’re visible from space
Iranian authorities began digging a pair of trenches for victims just days after the government disclosed the initial outbreak.

This picture shows New York City's mass graves on Hart Island. The island has been used as anonymous graveyard for 150 years but will now see a surge of new arrivals.
Mass Burials On Hart Island Increase Fivefold As COVID-19 Death Toll Skyrockets:


bigger
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PEPE ESCOBAR: Who Profits from the Pandemic? - Consortium News

Coronavirus now leading cause of death in US - The Hill

China Is Reopening Its Wet Markets. That's Good - Bloomberg
Inside a Real Chinese Wet Market - video

Mandatory vaccination against tuberculosis may help some people and countreis:
Correlation between universal BCG vaccination policy and reduced morbidity and mortality for COVID-19: an epidemiological study - medRxiv

 

Posted by b on April 10, 2020 at 15:37 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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Does anyone have any comprehensive information on "Operation Squaredance", the US' biological warfare operation waged against Cuba in the 60s? Specifically I'm looking for evidence that it did indeed take place and can be linked to the outbreak of swine flu, round worm and dengue that hit Cuba within the year it was supposed to be in action.

There seems to be a similar progression in the pattern of infections that hit Cuba and those that struck livestock last year in China.

Posted by: Arch | Apr 11 2020 1:20 utc | 101

Posted by: Laguerre | Apr 10 2020 22:58 utc | 90

......lived, study, work and travelled to many places including Alaska.

I am not disputing the words "wet market" in HK, but in many Asian cities. I study.... and.... in HK for number of year, therefore I know the place. I often ate in Kowloon "walled City" before it was torn down. However, I'm trying to show you these are common words used SE Asia. Expanding the words "wet market" in the evening also sells fishes, chickens, eggs and etc. at night, Malaysia, Singapore and some part of Indonesia. "Pasar" means market in Malay, Indonesia and Chinese, Indians also adapted it into local language. And "Malam" Malay mean night or evening.

I am hesitant to tell you the above, in Chinese we said "I've eaten more salt than you eat rice". Caucasian or Anglo-Saxon replaced with "breads".

Posted by: JC | Apr 11 2020 1:25 utc | 102

@86 you've got it backwards. The HCQ opens a channel for the zinc which then enters the cell and disrupts the corona virus replication process.

Posted by: Don Wills | Apr 11 2020 1:28 utc | 103

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 11 2020 0:41 utc | 100

Thanks brother I'll try on my next purchase.

Posted by: JC | Apr 11 2020 1:32 utc | 104

There is no doubt that corporate media distributes fake news. Before the pandemic, it was to line the owner’s pockets and get rid of the nationalist oligarch, Donald Trump. Now the world is turned upside down and the pandemic is out of their control.

Markets rule, profits first, dying empire reluctantly and haphazardly sheltered its population in place crashing the economy. Donald Trump was a useless bystander. 15% to 20% of the coronavirus infected must be hospitalized. This would crash the healthcare system for the wealthy not just everyone else. The super-rich’s Hamptons on Long Island are just as adversely impacted as NY City.

The nations that conduct contact tracing and quarantine the infected have lower numbers of dead than nations like the USA that don’t. The riff-raff still don’t matter. The Oligarchs will open up the USA on May 1st if they see no risk dying themselves. The basic problem is that with the stupid inept national governments left over from the fall of the Western Empire; the outcome, opened up or not, will be a continued economic depression and new waves of coronavirus breakouts and more lockdowns until a vaccine is developed or civil society is restored.

Posted by: VietnamVet | Apr 11 2020 1:42 utc | 105

Posted by: bevin | Apr 10 2020 23:06 utc | 92
+++++++++

In a way, she "gets it right." As ever she has a lot of good observations, and she is an excellent writer.
But in a way, despite all that she gets right in her analysis, I think she gets the fundamental situation wrong.

What is her route from here to there?
Why does she, very gently, ridicule those who are seeing terrible outlines through the fog of war on a virus?

IMO she is naive re vaccines, finances, and and some other things.
She doesn't seem to get what has been going on in France. Is she a Macron supporter?

I don't see her admonish the 1% to sacrifice and get with the social responsibility program. Only the rebels and skeptic are admonished to put aside their suspicions and do this. And the primary feature of the program, or the place to begin with the new group responsibilityJohnstone here prescribes, is in submitting to vaccination. [Expletive self-quarantined!]

My dear woman, much as I adore you and your writings, until Big Pharma and Bill Gates have ceased to exist, don't even think of jabbing me with any kind of vaccine.

Posted by: Really?? | Apr 11 2020 2:43 utc | 106

Paul, 83, Army worm has been in NZ since i was a kid near on 60 years ago. It is not the Fall Army Worm that currently is causing concern in norther Australia. We had an army worm outbreak in Tasmania a couple of years ago. Annoying, but not devestating. we just cut the hay early, sprayed where it was critical to do so, and wintered the cows on paddocks we did not want to spray until they turned the paddocks to mud, and then redrilled.

David F, re the globalist agenda, clearly you have not been paying attention. That or you are one of those increasingly prevalent individuals paid to pour scorn on those of us capable of drawing conclusions by listening to what the "elite" oligarch class is saying, watching what they have done and are doing, and observing closely how it relates to the laws that get passed when they think the populous is otherwise distracted.

Re wet markets, I like refrigeration but I do observe that the wet market system has been in operation for millenia and over that time humanity has thrived and increased in number on an exponential trajectory. The presence of hot water, cold storage and better hygiene has certainly hastened the arrival of the vertical portion of that trajectory but the inevitable vertical decline that accompanies every exponential excursion will be caused by resource depletion of some sort more so than the greblies that get spread because raw food gets sold and eaten before it is properly cooked. It is a crying shame that some of our so obviously conflicted leadership did not understand that simple reality and factor it into the decision making they supposedly engage in on our behalf./sarc (for David F's benefit)

Posted by: eagle eye | Apr 11 2020 2:46 utc | 107

"Vaccine may address this current version but as it is infecting so many it will likely mutate beyond the first vaccine BEFORE it is produced and ditto the second and third vaccine iteration. Same as the annual flu does."

Isn't this why many doctors say the best defense against future iterations of this and other corona viruses is a strong immune system? Whereas a previous vaccine designed for a previous attacker can actually weaken a person's immune system to fight off a new attacker by priming the T-cells or whatever to look for and recognize an old enemy that is similar, and not have the capacity to defend against the actual new one? Kind of like a fake-out?

Posted by: Really?? | Apr 11 2020 2:57 utc | 108

Said this would happen...

COVID-19 Outbreak: 70 Test Positive for Coronavirus at San Francisco Homeless Shelter
https://tinyurl.com/wot2hmx

This is just the start of an outbreak that will likely result in San Francisco having more cases than New York...and more deaths.

And then add in the people in SROs...


The outbreak at the MSC South shelter comes after weeks of people pleading with the mayor to make changes. The shelter is near the corner of 5th and Bryant streets. Mayor London Breed made the sobering announcement of the large amount of cases during the San Franciso's daily COVID-19 update on Friday and warned the worst is yet to come.

No shit, you dumb bitch...

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 11 2020 2:57 utc | 109

Hey dummies, if the month of lockdown we've been under here in the US has already resulted in a 98% reduction in the number of projected covid-19 deaths - from 2.2 million to 60k - then how come there was absolutely no statistically significant reduction in the number of pneumonia and flu deaths during that same period?

According to the CDC, as of 4/9 there had been 4,900 covid-19 deaths nationally, 511,000 total deaths, 35,500 pneumonia deaths, and 6,500 deaths caused by either pneumonia with covid-19 "suspected" or from flu.

Why are we living under quarantine, allowing our 1st amendment to be suspended (no peaceful assembly allowed), and watching all of our small businesses slowly suffocate while they are forced to close but also forced to pay their bills, for something which has - even in the face of the most draconian anti-illness measures ever undertaken - killed only 10% of what pneumonia and flu have?

Why haven't pneumonia and flu deaths declined in proportion to covid-19 since we're all on house arrest now?

I don't expect many of you navel-gazing morons (Wally, vk, Nemesis Calling, Dick Hack) to answer this because you're all absolute fucking retards, but this is a bio-terrorism heist.

Posted by: your worst nightmare | Apr 11 2020 3:01 utc | 110

You live in a homeless shelter, right Dick Hack?

Posted by: your worst nightmare | Apr 11 2020 3:02 utc | 111

Your Worst Nightmare @113
"then how come there was absolutely no statistically significant reduction in the number of pneumonia and flu deaths during that same period?"
++++++++++

Um, is it maybe because the CV is considered to be more infectious than Pneumonia or flu?

Of course it has been explained by some microbiologists and doctors that the virus does not kill the person, but creates the conditions in the lungs and the mucus in the lungs for, e.g., bacteria to move in for the kill via pneumonia. So it does seem to be pretty important to differentiate between pneumonia with CV and pneumonia caused by something else.

It does seem to be very difficult to tease apart the results of CV, pneumonia, and flu.

Posted by: Really?? | Apr 11 2020 3:10 utc | 112

I like Escobar's work but his piece posted at top is symptomatic of a crisis of public trust that has become toxic in the populations of governments that have failed their people. I fundamentally disagree with his underlying assumption that there is inherently something insidious about big government and the deep role of government in our lives. The COVID crisis has shown that big government is necessary to solve problems that individuals cannot. Ditto for climate change.

Escobar makes the assumption that the opposite of democracy is totalitarianism, which is typical of the 'liberal' world order, or what is more aptly called 'democracy fundamentalism.' But if you actually look at how China brought the virus under control, it was not with police coercing uninfected people to stay at home; rather it was with the cooperation and mobilization of the entire society, which includes thousands of medical staff volunteering to go to Wuhan, with grass-roots level organizing in apartment complexes and residential areas to make sure people were tested and the elderly would have food delivered to them, and everyone was aware of what was happening in their neighborhoods. All this grassroots-level organizing was facilitated by phone apps and technologies, but fundamentally what was particular about China's response is the cooperation and grass-roots organizing in sync with govt guidance. Central to China's success against COVID was not totalitarian top-down rule, but public trust, cooperation, and grass-roots mobilization towards a common cause signalled by the govt. By contrast, in countries dominated by neoliberalism and austerity, mobilization only occurs to defy and protest against the government -- mobilization only means resistance instead of the govt and people aligned towards a common cause.

The opposite of liberal democracy -- the unfettered freedom of individuals and corporations -- is not totalitarianism but bottom-up cooperation and grassroots mobilization, energized by public trust. So, Escobar's fears about big government offer no solution to the problem but are symptomatic of a crisis in public trust. Of course, governments have to prove to their people they are worthy of their trust, but the problem is not government per se but the breakdown of public trust. Ultimately, that is what separates China from the liberal democracies today. To see the issue from the narrow and misguided lens of democracy-vs-autocracy is to fail to see what the Chinese govt has achieved, with 80+ percent of the population approving of their govt, according to Pew Research. The proper solution to the post-COVID world is not fear of the govt's role, such that any responsibility taken up by govt is seen as increased "totalitarianism" and expanded "surveillance". The solution is not the curtailing of govt but the restoration of public trust.

Posted by: occupatio | Apr 11 2020 3:16 utc | 113

Posted by: Really?? | Apr 11 2020 3:10 utc | 114

Okay, so your position is that the more contagious, more dangerous pathogen that is covid-19 has had its potential death projections reduced by 98% (from Dr Fauci's estimate which precipitated the quarantine, the shuttering of businesses, etc) but over the exact same period of time pneumonia and flu, which are also infectious diseases transmitted from person to person the same way as covid-19, only with much less ferocity, have seen absolutely no decrease in deaths? Are you daft?

Posted by: your worst nightmare | Apr 11 2020 3:18 utc | 114

bevin@92 said;""The power of creatures like that is merely the reflection of the abdication of social responsibility by whole populations whose disinterest in politics has allowed the scum to rise to the top."

good description of our latest administration..

Posted by: ben | Apr 11 2020 3:32 utc | 115

@115 occupatio

That is one excellent comment. You are completely correct, I think, to call the central issue here the issue of public trust, rather than any systemic structure or practice. This matter of trust is the fulcrum at the base of all considerations of social organization, I think.

It has been well observed (and shown in countless videos) that most of the heavy lifting in China's response was done by the people themselves. As the effort progressed, the volunteerism reached heroic levels across all reaches of society and industry. Government did the organizing, and the people threw themselves into the task. There was very little police coercion.

As Martin Jacques has often pointed out, China is a civilization first, and a nation-state only secondly. And government in China is anciently regarded far more as an honored member of the family than as an intruder. During the epidemic, the Chinese people were greatly satisfied that their government was taking control of things for the peace and stability of society. This is what a good government does.

Whereas in the west we regard government as a kind of intruder in our lives, this is actually not necessary. Personally I regard government as the greatest achievement of the ordinary working people, if they could only get it to work well. In China, from the revolution(s) and because of the meritocratic, learning system that is the Party, government works pretty well for the people.

Trust comes from performance, and cements legitimacy. In China the government operates under the Mandate of Heaven and bears a heavy ethical responsibility to keep peace and order in society, which the people crave above all things. A government which fails in this responsibility has lost the Mandate, betrayed its trust, lost its legitimacy - and can be overthrown righteously.

In the west, the governments have almost no legitimacy, and enjoy almost no trust. This has happened because they have not performed for the benefit of the people. Although we never think in these terms, we could say that western governments also operate under a Mandate of Heaven. Today, they are in gross dereliction of their duties and have violated their mandates. If it were not so, the people would trust them. These two things go together, performance earning trust.

Thank you for nailing that crucial point.

Posted by: Grieved | Apr 11 2020 3:46 utc | 116

@ 103 asked about "operation square dance".

Found this reference, but wouldn't give me the story.

"The U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff presented President Johnson with its recommendations for Operation Square Dance, a plan to totally destroy Cuba's sugar crop in order to cause the collapse of its socialist government led by prime minister Fidel Castro. President Johnson refused to approve the operation because of the hardship upon the general ..."

From Wiki, but, that's all it would give me when I yahoo'ed it..

Still looking..

Posted by: ben | Apr 11 2020 3:58 utc | 117

@112 your worst nightmare

You start with this: "Hey dummies, if the month of lockdown we've been under here in the US has already resulted in a 98% reduction in the number of projected covid-19 deaths"

Please note the presence of the word "projected" in that sentence.

Later on you produce this supposed-zinger: "Why haven't pneumonia and flu deaths declined in proportion to covid-19 since we're all on house arrest now?"

Please note the absence of the word "projected" in that sentence.

Your question is therefore invalid, since it is predicated on the comparison of the PROJECTED deaths from covid-19 with the CURRENT number of deaths from pneumonia and influenza.

Comparing apples and oranges is a losers-game, dude, but thanks for playing.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Apr 11 2020 4:34 utc | 118

@116 your worst nightmare

"Okay, so your position is that the more contagious, more dangerous pathogen that is covid-19 has had its potential death projections reduced by 98% (from Dr Fauci's estimate which precipitated the quarantine, the shuttering of businesses, etc) but over the exact same period of time pneumonia and flu".....

Oh dear, oh dear, there you go again.

Note the incompatibility of the phrase "potential death projections" with the phrase "the exact same period of time".

Which "period of time" are you referring to, dude?
The CURRENT figures for pneumonia and flu?
or
The PROJECTED figures for covid-19 into the future?

You do know that those are two quite different "periods of time", don't you?

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Apr 11 2020 4:41 utc | 119

Posted by: Grieved | Apr 11 2020 3:46 utc | 118

Excellent comments... I really really like Martin Jacques and he's no fool. If you had watched CGTN reports and News on Wuhan's Covid-19 since January 2020, the pains and sacrifices of over 40,000 doctors, nurses and Healthcare workers are really encouraging. Make me proud to be a Chinese. If I'm young again, I would surely return to my ancestor home Huanggang, Hubei.

Below Tian Wei, CGTN host interviewed Professor Wu ZunYou Chief Epidemiologist, Chinese CDC explained Asystematic coronavirus and why Wuhan Wednesday 8th April open 76 checkpoints for 55K locals and foreigners out of the Wuhan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaEWzpMRITI

Posted by: JC | Apr 11 2020 4:46 utc | 120

@ uncle tungsten 97

JULY 2019
"Mystery" respiratory illness emerges in Greenspring Retirement Community near the (at the time) suddenly shut down military lab for biological weapons at Fort Detrick.

mcknights

Mystery grows as 3rd resident dies from still-unidentified respiratory illness

An unknown respiratory illness has claimed a third life at the skilled nursing and assisted living unit of a sprawling continuing care retirement community in Northern Virginia.

Officials announced this week that lab testing still had not confirmed the source of the illness, which has sickened 63 residents and 19 staff members since it first took hold June 30.

The outbreak has so far been confined to the single, 236-resident Garden Ridge unit at Greenspring Retirement Community.

Fort Detrick was shut down in JULY 2019 for serious protocol violations (reasons undiscleosed becuase, guess what, national security)

wija

here is the google map showing one hour drive distance from Fort detrick and Greenspring Retirement Community

google map

Posted by: karlitozulu | Apr 11 2020 5:29 utc | 121

@119

Re "operation square dance", there is quite a bit more information here:

https://whowhatwhy.org/2018/05/09/jfk-files-reveal-us-biological-warfare-plans-against-cuba/

And the actual link to the memo: https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/docid-32423484.pdf#page=175


"..introducing aerially, from offshore, a sugar cane parasite Bunga. Subsequently, the economic and political disturbances caused by this attack could be exacerbated and exploited by such measures as spreading hoof-and-mouth disease among draft animals, controlling rainfall by cloud seeding, mining canefields, burning cane, and directing other acts of conventional sabotage against the cane milling and transportation systems."

Quite a bit of other ugly reading in those pages, including sabotage of "additives" by the CIA and proposed "dilution" of pesticides, again by the CIA.

Posted by: Bill B | Apr 11 2020 5:44 utc | 122

We do in fact have very reliable infection and death data from closed samples onboard the cruise ships.

The Diamond Princess, the Grand Princess and the Zaandam (the latter stranded at sea a whole 24 days starting prior to the population showing any symptoms) represent a closed sample of more than 9000 individuals between passengers and crew.

Better still, all were tested.

Of the 9000 individuals that have been directly exposed to Covid19 in a confined environment for several days, the results are:

Less than 1000 infected

Less than 10 fatalities

Of 2 things therefore, 1 must be true.

1 - Either the numbers coming out of city and country governments are not true

or

2 - Cruise ships offer peculiar environmental conditions that inhibit the spread of the virus and its lethality.

If number 2 should turn out to be true, then I would suggest reopening the economy immediately and instead buying a cruise to every man woman and child. It'll be less damaging to the fabric of society.

Incidentally, the above numbers seem to jive with the infection rate and mortality we are witnessing on the ongoing saga that is the nuclear war ship Theodore Roosevelt.

The Ruby Princess cruise ship is also a developing situation.

The Ruby Princess can carry 3,782 passengers and 1,200 crew. So that is a closed group of up to 5000 individuals.

As far as I can glean from the press, from its last cruise there have been 700 infections and 10 fatalities so far. It is not clear however whether or not all passengers and crew have been tested because it appears that passengers were allowed to disembark in Australia without undergoing any test upon exit.

Posted by: guidoamm | Apr 11 2020 5:55 utc | 123

You fucking retards are dumber than I even gave you credit for. If covid-19 was a real threat which was capable of causing the deaths of millions, then the implementation of house arrest and social distancing would have resulted in not only marked reduction in covid-19 deaths, but also a marked reduction in both pneumonia and flu deaths during that same time period.

You fucking retards seem to think that because the absolutely terroristic and fantastical projected delusions of Dr Fauci have been somewhat dialed back...by 98%...that the actual, real world pneumonia and flu deaths in America which haven't changed at all from their observed trajectory, are now somehow irrelevant?

If I could find you useless and dishonest fucks, I'd cut your still beating hearts out of your inverted chests and feed them to you.

Posted by: your worst nightmare | Apr 11 2020 5:57 utc | 124

karlof1 @ 24
Some of the info in that "MUST READ" is incorrect.
A better read is the original posted on his web site which has links to his sources.

childrenshealthdefense.org

Posted by: Lorna MacKay | Apr 11 2020 6:05 utc | 125

eagle eye | Apr 11 2020 2:46 utc | 109

That rambling post made even less sense when you put the /sarc tag "for my benefit". I have no idea what it is you are trying to say.

your worst nightmare | Apr 11 2020 3:02 utc | 113

"You live in a homeless shelter, right Dick Hack?"

No, he lives in a single room occupancy (SRO). Think of a boarding house with a shared bathroom and kitchen. And his name is Richard. Asshole.

-----

The crazy is thick in here tonight, actually it has been thick in here for the last couple of weeks, but tonight seems to be setting a new standard.

I don't know whether to feel sorry or disgusted at some of the deluded folks posting lately.

What is it with westerners (and I must say it is usually the dumbest fucks in america who spout this shit) who think that every other country on the planet is full of ignorant and unsophisticated people? Those countries and people are exactly the same as we are. Some are wealthy and educated, some are poor and ignorant, and everything in between. Some parts are very modern, some are antiquated. Google walmart + christmas if you want an example of disgusting people that are part of our society. Go and visit some of the small towns in america if you want to see antiquated and backwards. Claiming all foreigners are savages who don't live the great and sophisticated life we do, is about the most ignorant thing one can say.

I have read this blog for years because there was usually some very good discussion here, and I found it often to be stimulating. Most of the time someone else had already said what I would have so I didn't feel the need to add anything to it. This is turning into a shit show, I think I am going to take a break from this insanity.

Posted by: David F | Apr 11 2020 6:52 utc | 126

your worst nightmare #125

I think you will find that Fauci has advice from the virus designers at Fort Detrick.
This 5 minute video by Steve Pieczenic who is likely of a similar mind to you, shows that the virus has been around in the USA from sometime around September 2019. Read the comments as they attest to that fact.

So you see Fauci and old CIA warriors like Steve know what the real story is. They have friends at Fort Detrick.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 11 2020 7:01 utc | 127

your worst nightmare #125

I think you will find that Fauci has advice from the virus designers at Fort Detrick.
This 5 minute video by Steve Pieczenic who is likely of a similar mind to you, shows that the virus has been around in the USA from sometime around September 2019. Read the comments as they attest to that fact.

So you see Fauci and old CIA warriors like Steve know what the real story is. They have friends at Fort Detrick.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 11 2020 7:01 utc | 128

The double post was NOT my doing this time. :))

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 11 2020 7:04 utc | 129

guidoamm 124

Spanish flue only infected 20 to 25% of the population. Going by the cruise ships I think coronavirus will be similar.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 11 2020 7:32 utc | 130

@125 "You fucking retards are".... apparently more insightful than you, and very definitely better mannered, so... fuck you.

"If covid-19 was a real threat which was capable of causing the deaths of millions, then the implementation of house arrest and social distancing would have resulted in not only marked reduction in covid-19 deaths, but also a marked reduction in both pneumonia and flu deaths during that same time period."

Again, you are mixing your tenses as and when it pleases you.

Because in your first two lamentable posts you wrote about Fauci's "projections" that *because* of these lockdown orders *then* the future rate of deaths from covid-18 *will* *be* much lower than they would have been if it had been business as usual.

That's what you argued, and so that's what you have to stand by.

Now, ask yourself the obvious question: how would Fauci "project" the rate of deaths from pneumonia and influenza under that same lockdown regime?

Would he, perchance, say: yeah, sure, they are going to be much lower as well.

As far as I know nobody has asked him that question. Perhaps you should, since this seems to be the particular bee in your bonnet. So send him one of your singularly unpleasant messages.

Let me know what he says, I'm not going anywhere.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Apr 11 2020 7:41 utc | 131

Go buy a Russian surplus gasmask including filter, can be less than 20 § on a suplus depot and you will be safe, do it now before Russia bans exports, but you s a public are generally too stupid, well bad luck.
I use my model 79 whenever i mignle with the public, small children cry in fear and I sound like Darth Vader he he.

Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Apr 11 2020 7:47 utc | 132

@125 "You fucking retards seem to think that because the absolutely terroristic and fantastical projected delusions of Dr Fauci have been somewhat dialed back...by 98%..."

Sigh. Once again, one more time, yet again: you are comparing his *projections* regarding what will happen in the future with your claim that the number of *current* pneumonia and flu deaths are unchanged.

Mr Apple, meet my good friend Mr Orange.

"...that the actual, real world pneumonia and flu deaths in America which haven't changed at all from their observed trajectory, are now somehow irrelevant?"

See? As I said, you are insisting on comparing *projections" of covid-19 deaths with *current* figures for pneumonia and flu deaths, which is about as misleading a use of data as it is possible to get.

What you need to do is point out what Fauci is *projecting* will be the future deaths from covid-19 versus what he is *projecting* to be the future trajectory of deaths from pneumonia and influenza, and then pointing out any logical discrepancy between those two projections.

I suspect that you can't, because while Fauci has been asked many times about the former I have seen no articles where he was been asked his opinion on the latter.

Alternatively, you could compare the *current* deaths from covid-19 against the *current* deaths from pneumonia and influenza, and draw some conclusions from that comparison.

That we certainly can do, because the CDC collates and releases those figures, and on a daily basis. Here is what the latest one says: "Based on death certificate data, the percentage of deaths attributed to COVID-19 increased from 4.0% during week 13 to 6.9% during week 14. The percentage of deaths due to pneumonia (excluding COVID-19 or influenza) decreased from 7.5% during week 13 to 7.2% during week 14."

Soooooo, the current data does not allow you to make your blanket claim i.e. in the "real world" the rate of deaths attributable to covid-19 continues to rise despite the imposition of a lockdown, while the rate of deaths attributed to pneumonia is going down.

Or, in short: your methodology is shit, and your "facts" are nonexistent.

But, hey, it hasn't stopped you so far so, please, rant on.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Apr 11 2020 8:03 utc | 133

Just pointing out a small error in your article. The covid-19 disease is caused by the SARS-CoV-2 virus, not SARS-CoV-19. There is no virus called SARS-CoV-19.

Posted by: SayLess | Apr 11 2020 8:03 utc | 134

Recommending Walmart, Barnes & Noble or Ebay as an alternative to amazon is the equivalent of recommending a nazi as an alternative to a zionist. All are equally evil and are the reason why I don't buy books, go to movies or watch broadcast TV any longer.
Anything available as a book, movie, or TV show is available on the net so I go there, Publishers and Murdoch happens to be one of the biggest across all media, make more money from a work than authors, scriptwriters or directors who are generally on a pretty good whack anyhow.

In the case of Escobar, it makes more sense to pirate his book then pay him directly thru patreon or some-such.
The only reason I don't put more links up is so as not to compromise b's site being called a russo-chinese pirate is one slander too far.
There are many excellent books & docos being released regularly and now that alphabet/youtube has joined the censorship binge we really should look at creating a small site where stuff can be obtained that we can be certain has not been censored or won't benefit murdoch, bezos or any other of that ilk. use easy download rather than the hassle of torrent or usenet.
Do others see that need or is it not worth the effort?

Posted by: A User | Apr 11 2020 8:17 utc | 135

Walter as promised from open thread.

An interesting piece (pdf) on bacteria and tuberculosis

Too many experts too little thought

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 11 2020 8:20 utc | 136

@125 your worst nightmare

Here, some actual "real world" figures for you:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/COVID19/

As I write the figures are good for the week ending 04 April 2020 i.e. a one week delay.
I assume they will update tomorrow.

Note the first table, which shows deaths week-by-week, categorized as
1) Deaths with covid-19
2) Deaths with pneumonia (excluding co-morbid with flu)
3) Deaths with pneumonia AND covid-19 (so subtract 3 from 2 to get non-covid-19 pneumonia)
4) Deaths with influenza

Just what you need to make your blanket claim that pneumonia and influenza deaths haven't budged despite the lockdown.

Only.... those deaths clearly have budged.

The takeaways from that table are striking:
1) Covid-19 related deaths are still going up despite the lockdown
2) Fully one-third of all pneumonia deaths are now co-morbid with covid-19 infection
3) Influenza deaths are on the decline

I mean, look at that table: there are now more covid-19 deaths than there are deaths from influenza, but fully half of the COVID-19 deaths occurred in just the most recent week of recording.

Or, put another way: in just THE LAST WEEK covid-19 killed half as many people as influenza killed during all 10 weeks that the CDC has been tracking the covid-19 pandemic.

Everything that you are claiming is false, or misleading, or both.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Apr 11 2020 8:45 utc | 137

Ken Garoo #89

"Mass Burials On Hart Island Increase Fivefold As COVID-19 Death Toll Skyrockets:"

Looking at the pictures, there seem to be about 4 bodies per metre of trench length.

Here are historic trench length estimates:

2003 35m
2004 45m
2008 52m
2009 69m
2010 72m
2011 42m
2012 96m
2014 144m
2016 86m
2020 105m (to April 2020)

Most years seem to have one trench about every 6 months. 2014 had 3 trenches, one in April and 2 in October. What happened in 2014?

Great question, I suggest:
Ask the CDC if they have a coherent answer
Did CDC have cause in 2014 to raise any issues with Fort Detrick or any other CBW installation in the district.
Who was working on international collaborations in 2014 in Fort Detrick?
Why was France chosen as the lab designer in Wuhan and did Chinese scientists working in the Canadian and USA labs have unpleasant things to say about design and performance?

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 11 2020 9:15 utc | 138

The types who have fallen under irrational climate change denialist Kit Knightly's spell do have one irrefutable point. A point which they foolishly negate with their toss-ridden claims that Covid-19 isn't fatal, it is just a bad cold - if it even exists.

The valid point they should be making and the point which we at MoA should be continually re-asserting, is that it is suicidally lackadaisical of all of us to entrust the same gang of deceitful vote-seducers who got us into this mess with getting us out of it.

True we have little choice in the matter in these initial stages as the epidemic and the need to slow it down, has made the usual forms of building & expressing solidarity impossible.
That is why more of us need to be 'out there' volunteering to provide assistance to those unable to help themselves.
Right now is the time to get involved build up credibility and become known as a decent sort in your local community.
That way if the vote-seducers try on the type of power hungry nonsense that Hungary's Viktor Orban has granted himself or more likely they try to leave some of the extraordinary powers they've used to facilitate contact tracing, running past the point where they aren't required any longer, there is a large diverse groundswell ready & waiting to show these pols who let's face it all have a record of putting fat cats demands ahead of we, the people's needs, can be pulled back into line.


The preliminary move which we need to be arguing right now must get going.
That is, since many of these pols weren't a glint in anyone's eye when WW2 was running, they have taken ill thought thru decisions that need to be fixed immediately.
The most obvious of these is the way that governments of all stripes who want to distance themselves from anything seemingly draconian or oppressive, have given the job of rule-making over to the same mob governments use for apprehending rule breakers.

In far too many instances decisions about what should be open or closed, or what constitutes an essential service has been given to law enforcement to decide.
That isn't only dangerous it is plain stupid as law enforcement aka the police are always going to pick the rule which creates the least hassle for them never mind it is cruel or unfair or whatever.

A quick example in Aotearoa only pharmacies, supermarkets and convenience stores may be open during lockdown.

Except in some districts where alcohol licensing laws prevented supermarkets from selling grog. In that case bottleshops were allowed to open in those areas. Every country in the world has made booze selling complicated - usually thanks to industry lobbyists.
Bottle shops sell beer, wine & spirits (liquor) Supermarkets only sell beer & wine.
So people in search of a wee dram of their favourite whiskey had to drive distances to a bottle shop to do so.
When the media filmed huge queues outside the bottle-shops Ardern asked the police to "Sort it out".
People wanted needed to buy liquor so the obvious move would have been to let bottleshops (not all of them some sort of rotation to keep it fair for all).
Nah the coppers took the easy way out and banned bottleshops from selling liquor or ready mixed drinks (bourbon & cola yuk!) etc.

Citizens denied the right to enjoy a tipple because some protestant policeman says so! unbelievable.

That is an issue I raise with the people who we help and once the situation has been properly set out most change their minds as they suddenly comprehend the petty oppression.

I guarantee every nation/state will have similar issues where basic freedoms have been unneccessarily destroyed, "put on hold' or whatever is your vote seducers preferred euphamism.

Posted by: A User | Apr 11 2020 9:20 utc | 139

A User #136

There are many excellent books & docos being released regularly and now that alphabet/youtube has joined the censorship binge we really should look at creating a small site where stuff can be obtained that we can be certain has not been censored or won't benefit murdoch, bezos or any other of that ilk. use easy download rather than the hassle of torrent or usenet.
Do others see that need or is it not worth the effort?

I am with that. But first there is hooktube and other similar alternatives. I am not familiar with online deposit systems for publications though. Is there a Russian or Chinese or EU iCloud equivalent? there must be.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 11 2020 9:28 utc | 140

Guidoamm @ 124:

A criminal case has been opened to investigate the conduct of the Ruby Princess's owner (Carnival Australia, part of Carnival Corloration) in apparently claiming to New South Wales health authorities that COVID-19 was not present on the ship. This was one issue influencing NSW Health's decision to allow passengers to disembark even though initial tests for the coronavirus among passengers were still undergoing analysis.

Posted by: Jen | Apr 11 2020 9:55 utc | 141

The author and many of its readers, most of them probably in their 50s, 60s and 70s who still think its cool to bash religion, are obviously biased against religion. Last years easter greetings that picked up long refuted arguments in doubt of the historicity of persons like Jesus are an obvious hint. It seems that they are fact-resistant. Thus some counterweight:

COVID-19: The Zionist Underpinnings of Israel’s Violent Crackdown on Haredi Jews
The Israeli government’s long-running campaign to forcibly secularize Israel’s Ultra-Orthodox Jews has left them particularly vulnerable to the coronavirus.

https://www.mintpressnews.com/coronavirus-zionist-underpinnings-israel-crackdown-haredi-jews/266486/

Well done, dear secularists, well done.

Posted by: Mapa | Apr 11 2020 10:00 utc | 142

A User @140

Hungary's Viktor Orban - Human Rights Watch & Kenneth Roth.

So now the the promoters of the White Helmets have become the bastion of truth & honesty.

"The types who have fallen under irrational climate change denialist Kit Knightly's spell..."
Never miss an opportunity to conflate...

For some perspective from the Australian Greens...
Andrews Government should not be immune from scrutiny

Posted by: ted01 | Apr 11 2020 10:03 utc | 143

re uncle tungsten | Apr 11 2020 9:28 utc | 141

From what I can gather hooktube is all over red rover. I was thinking of a small site where habitues of this place & a couple of others can post links to apposite films, docos or books which interest these humans.
As well as the censorship issue, youtube is a notorious planter of trackers and privacy invader as is FB & the rest.
The site would have to stay quite small otherwise it would attract attention from the thought police, when a say, MoA reader sees hears or reads a piece they think could interest others they post it with a brief description.
No mention at MoA people just learn to visit the other site a couple times a week to see if there is stuff that will interest them.

Posted by: A User | Apr 11 2020 10:05 utc | 144

Keep it constructive guys?!

There is a virus and there is a scam. Both are happening. The truths are not mutually exclusive.

Posted by: Tony | Apr 11 2020 10:14 utc | 145

re Mapa | Apr 11 2020 10:00 utc | 143 where Mapa does a great job of revealing exactly how it is the superstitious get the wrong end of the stick every time.

It is of no concern of anyone who can think when one band of superstitious fools over reliant on the lies they have been indoctrinated into to better excuse their vicious invasion, call an equally awful bunch of credulous dingbats silly names.
That appears to be what your link is about.
Some orthodox jews aren't zionist - big deal, why is it then that so many superstitious hebrew speakers who claim to be orthodox jews have invaded Palestine?
The Palestinian people, islamic, xtian or agnostic couldn't give a damn which branch of the oppressive credo the invaders ally with.
I had a neighbor for a while who was from Palestine, he told me the easiest way to tell if a jew invader was orthodox was if one heard the sound of a women howling whilst being beaten coming from their house, if one did hear that, the family was most likely 'orthodox'.

Religions are tools of the elite, the religion's bosses - 'leaders' if you will, inevitably cut a deal with political leaders whereby they feed nonsense which favours those in power to the hoi polloi & in return the politicians give the superstitious cult tax deals, land for meeting venues, school subsidies etc.

Posted by: A User | Apr 11 2020 10:25 utc | 146

A timely and accurate comment from "b".
But: "I smell a rat":
.
The most interesting from b arrives at the very end:
.
" Pneumonic plague has symptoms of respiratory failure similar to pneumonia. Left untreated, it is fatal.
(...)
Mongolia, which borders the autonomous region where the infected Chinese couple lives, reported two fatal cases of bubonic plague just this year, after the patients ate raw marmot, a species of wild rodent that often carry the offending bacterium. In Mongolia, eating marmot is thought to be good for health."
.
It should be noted that aside from the part of Mongol lands that run Soutwes and East of the Gobi Deserts, and Kasakhstan and the US of North A. Southest (Northern New Mexico and NE Arizona) one of very few other natural reservoirs of plague are the feet of the mountains just Nortwest of Wŭhàn, up along the hills South and West of the Hàn river. There were sporadic outbrakes noted by missionaries in the 1920ies and one reputed outbreak close to the campus of WŭDà university in the winter of 1984-85. No wonder someone botched in reporting about the current outbrake and what it was caused by -- maybe on purpose.

Posted by: Oū Sī / 區司/ Usman | Apr 11 2020 10:25 utc | 147

re ted01 | Apr 11 2020 10:03 utc | 144
Actually the conflation was deliberate, aimed at the gang of idjits from off guardian who have been trying to 'conflate' many of the issues discussed here previously with the rational conclusion covid 19 kills humans which is presented at moa, as a piss weak way of attempting to call out hypocrisy & failing.
The fact is that the editorial stance of offguardian is denial of climate change. Therefore including it as an example of muddled thinking, was on point, as well as poetic.

Posted by: A User | Apr 11 2020 10:34 utc | 148

A User @150

"Actually the conflation was deliberate..."

Bullshit.

Quoting Human Rights Watch is......?

Posted by: ted01 | Apr 11 2020 10:49 utc | 149

b
I am hoping you have time to check out these two newish sites and organizations.
If they are as good as they look - they need to getting around.
It covers the Novichok lies too, white helmets, OPCW....
Vanessa Beeley is a member - nuff said
http://syriapropagandamedia.org/
Same people below
On the current propaganda - re the virus etc
http://propagandastudies.ac.uk/about/
Also a coule of powerful links which may have been posted.
If so a repeat - sorry but someone may not have seen them.
Gates from Strategic Culture
https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2020/04/08/bill-gates-crosses-digital-rubicon-says-mass-gatherings-may-not-return-without-global-vaccine/
Another Kennedy 'murdered'...?
https://cloverchronicle.com/2020/04/08/robert-f-kennedy-jr-bill-gates-obsession-with-vaccines-fueled-by-messianic-conviction-that-he-is-destined-to-save-the-world-with-technology-and-god-like-willingness-to-experiment-on-lives-of/

Posted by: Emily | Apr 11 2020 11:08 utc | 150

a small outbreak of bubonic plague from Inner Mongolia

Now that you mention it, I recall reading an article at the time on either RT or Sputnik. Bubonic plague is endemic (at a low level) in Mongolia, aparently.

Actually, I'm not sure offhand whether the article was about Mongolia the country, or Inner Mongolia (part of China) ... maybe endemic to both. Jen, was that you who posted the link at the time (just a vague memory, might be mistaken)?

Posted by: BM | Apr 11 2020 11:10 utc | 151

Posted by: occupatio | Apr 11 2020 3:16 utc | 115
".... if you actually look at how China brought the virus under control, it was not with police coercing uninfected people to stay at home; rather it was with the cooperation and mobilization of the entire society.... Central to China's success against COVID was not totalitarian top-down rule, but public trust, cooperation, and grass-roots mobilization towards a common cause signalled by the govt.... The solution is not the curtailing of govt but the restoration of public trust...."

Well said, Occupatio. You articulated it better than I ever could of.

What this sad, broken world needs is good governance that serves the people, not gangs of rapacious banksters and grifters who masquerade as governments to steal other people's lunches, keep other people's oil, help that unnameable chosen race steal other people's lands.

But as The Saker wrote a couple days ago (7th April), the Empire is not viable, and not reformable.

The caravan heading into the new era will now bypass the anglozios even as the dogs of the status quo bark their darndest.

Posted by: kiwiklown | Apr 11 2020 11:10 utc | 152

New York City's mass graves on Hart Island

Erm, Iran, have you seen any interesting satellite pictures lately? Do tell us if you happen to come across something the MSM is hiding!

Posted by: BM | Apr 11 2020 11:16 utc | 153


ccr5delta32 mutation

Anyone on here know about this and can give more info?.
I picked it up from someone's comment and it is rather interesting.
Is this tending to protect caucasians?
I found this below taking a look but any thoughts or further details would, I suggest, interest at least some of us.
Thanks.
http://www.gavilan.edu/library/lgdocuments/sample_ppt_originofccr5delta32mutation.pdf

Posted by: Emily | Apr 11 2020 11:20 utc | 154

Posted by: Grieved | Apr 11 2020 3:46 utc | 118
"Thank you for nailing that crucial point."

My thanks to you too, for your excellent observations.

Does not matter if the cat is black or white if it catches the rat, said Deng X. P.

Does not matter if it is "communist" or if it is "capitalist", I say.
Does not matter if it is "democratic", or "socialist".
Does not matter if you vote every 4 years.
Are the bastards serving you or themselves?

The CCP serves the people, and they have the people's trust.

Posted by: kiwiklown | Apr 11 2020 11:31 utc | 155

A User 142

Aotearoa only pharmacies, supermarkets and convenience stores may be open during lockdown.

Since when was New Zealand - 'Aotearoa?
Seems you have certain prejudices...
Frankly I would question the reliability and bias of all you post after this.

Posted by: Emily | Apr 11 2020 11:36 utc | 156

By my estimation in WW2 the average combine deaths (civilian and mil, all participants) amounted to something like 33 thousand per day.

CVx seems somewhat less, but nevertheless it's on the chart.

The war lasted (officially) 6 years and a day. (but it didn't really end, did it?)
...

I see (wunderground) that the eastern regions of US are expected to have some totally screwed weather over the week-end... Combined with germz... Geewhiz.. ".A Major Severe Outbreak Is Looming
Strong tornadoes, damaging winds, and very large hail are possible from Texas to the Southeast this weekend."

Posted by: Walter | Apr 11 2020 11:45 utc | 157

dltravers @ 103

This seems like very good information.

From the 'ventilator settings wrong'

""“Some are questioning whether this is a lung disease causing blood problems or a blood disease causing lung problems,” he said.“

I don’t know what it is, but I know that I have never seen it before. People are dying of a disease we don’t understand, thousand of people, old and young, and yes, there are young people dying.”

Kyle-Sidell has also said that “COVID-19 lung disease, as far as I can see, is not a pneumonia” but seems to be “some kind of viral-induced disease most resembling high altitude sickness.”""
--------------

There is a very good discussion associated with the video that implies part of the problem may be due to red blood cells not being able to carry oxygen normally.
 -------------

pogohere @ 111

Chinese scientists explain dimming in the lungs of mildly affected coronavirus4-10-20The intensification of inflammatory processes and the appearance of frosted glass in the lungs of patients, the test result for which coronavirus turned out to be positive, is due to damage in patients with hemoglobin, an important transport protein in humans. This conclusion was made by Chinese scientists.A study by Wenzhong Liu of Sichuan University and Hualan Li of Yibin University shows that the SARS-CoV-2 virus can attack human red blood cells by binding to hemoglobin molecules. This leads to a disruption of oxygen transport through the bloodstream, says naked-science.ru referring to the publication of scientists in the preprint archive ChemRxiv.

Hemoglobin is a complex metal-containing protein that can reversibly bind to oxygen. At the center of each hemoglobin molecule is heme, or the porphyrin core containing a ferrous atom: it is able to bind four O2 molecules. Collecting oxygen in the lungs, red blood cells with the help of hemoglobin transfer it to various organs and parts of the body.

SARS-CoV-2 viral particles do not interact directly with red blood cells. A number of non-structural (not part of the viral capsid) proteins encoded by viral RNA are responsible for this. Such proteins facilitate the fixation and replication of the virus in the host organism, blocking cellular mechanisms and biochemical pathways.

Chinese scientists have found that some of these non-structural viral proteins penetrate red blood cells and displace iron from porphyrin nuclei. This deprives the red blood cells of the ability to transport oxygen, which, in turn, leads to increased inflammatory processes in the lungs, hypoxemia, the development of symptoms of acute respiratory distress symptom (ARDS) and multiple organ oxygen deficiency.

Posted by: p | Apr 10 2020 6:46 utc | 124
-------------

This implies a different mechanism for the hypoxia and low blood oxygen saturation.  Seems somewhat similar to carbon monoxide poisoning where the formation of carboxyhemoglobin interferes with the red blood cells ability to transport oxygen.

Posted by: financial matters | Apr 11 2020 12:15 utc | 158

re Posted by: Emily | Apr 11 2020 11:36 utc | 160
What an odd person you must be Emily. Aotearoa is the indigenous, tangata whenua name for what you call Noo Zeeland, a name given by some passing Dutchman long dead holds no use for me. Aotearoa, in english 'the land of the long white cloud' is accurate, descriptive and far more edifying than some dutch/englander bastardisation made in an era when europeans were dehumanising all around to make simple their plunder. Ask the average kiwi to show you where Zeeland is on a map & they'll stare at you blankly since they have no idea of the place they were named after - what use then the name new zild? (new zild being the phonetic pronounciation of the way many kiwis pronounce the euro name of their country.) You are aware that Aotearoa has two official languages, english & te reo, that makes Aotearoa just as correct a name as new zild or whatever you call it.
The mere fact you distrust everything I may say on the basis that I use our original, historic name indicates to me that you are most likely just another sad little white person unable to deal with the contemporary world where everyone counts regardless of their heritage.

Posted by: A User | Apr 11 2020 12:25 utc | 159

This, with apology, somewhat off topic - USN has broached the agenda to "license" pirates to seize Chinese ships. see open thread. see "U.S. Privateering Is Legal", (Brandon Schwartz) Proceedings,Vol. 146/2/1,406, and also Unleash the Privateers!, The United States should issue letters of marque to fight Chinese aggression at sea.By Colonel Mark Cancian, U.S. Marine Corps (Retired) and Brandon Schwartz, April 2020, Proceedings
Vol. 146/2/1,406... I suppose we could try to connect this matter to the CVx germz somehow...oh yeah...the navy can't do it 'cause the sailors are sick. Shilling for Blackwater to steal Chinese ships. Brilliant!

Posted by: Walter | Apr 11 2020 12:40 utc | 160

@3 William Gruff

Hygiene standards at butchers, slaughterhouses and farmers markets are way higher here in the UK than in Chinese wet markets, you even have to display your food hygiene certificate.

Posted by: TJ | Apr 11 2020 12:43 utc | 161

to A User. Bravo. I have visited your beautiful cloud land - and have enjoyed your posts. Emily must be a confused brit lander or some such. Cheers. PS I have heard the kiwi cry - but not seen her. Such wonderful birds you have.

Posted by: Miss Lacy | Apr 11 2020 13:12 utc | 162

TJ @ 165
Have you forgotten——
The horse meat scandal
Bird flue
Mad cow disease
Foot and mouth disease
T B
UKIP
Ect ect

Posted by: Mark2 | Apr 11 2020 13:14 utc | 163

A User 163.
I am perfectly aware that Aotearoa is the Maori name for New Zealand.
However the name of that nation - recognised both nationally and internationally is New Zealand.
Your using of the maori name in preference to the actual name - yes - does show your bias and politics.
Neo lib all over it.
I know New Zealand well - vivited often and have close relatives there and your determination to chose a maori name that is being largely pushed hard by those who want to impose and force maori culture and domination on the mass of the New Zealand people, shows your bias quite clearly.
Incidently most maoris - who are a fine people - are quite happy with the status quo.
Of course overlooked is the fact that the maori too, were invaders, and immigrants who merely predate Tasman by a handful of centuries.
The native people who were in New Zealand at the time were not so fortunate as to survive the maori onslaught and occupation....

Posted by: Emily | Apr 11 2020 13:16 utc | 164

Posted by: Really?? | Apr 11 2020 3:10 utc | 114

Okay, so your position is that the more contagious, more dangerous pathogen that is covid-19 has had its potential death projections reduced by 98% (from Dr Fauci's estimate which precipitated the quarantine, the shuttering of businesses, etc) but over the exact same period of time pneumonia and flu, which are also infectious diseases transmitted from person to person the same way as covid-19, only with much less ferocity, have seen absolutely no decrease in deaths? Are you daft?

Posted by: your worst nightmare | Apr 11 2020 3:18 utc | 117
++++++++++
I posted a question.
I led off with "Um, is it maybe because . . . "

That was a genuine question. Not a "position."
It is too bad that you don't understand the difference and accuse me of being daft.
Although you didn't answer the question but actually just restated your own "position" as if it were mine.

My question stands. I have read that a feature of this virus is its extreme infectiousness---the ease and speed with which it is transferred. *If* that is the case---if it is indeed more "infectious" in this way (and I don't know whether this has been demonstrated but the work of Dr. Streeck in Germany does not appear to support that thesis)---it *could* possible account for a greater proportional reduction of covid19 cases as a result of distancing etc. than of other, less infectious, diseases.

So, that is the question. Could this be an answer, or partial answer, to YOUR question?
If you don't care to answer it, fine, but in the meantime do hold the insulting and useless "Are you daft" stuff. It does not advance the discussion, nor provide any answer to the original issue you raised. Thanks.

Posted by: Really?? | Apr 11 2020 13:35 utc | 165

CV> Damning the fascist fubar'd plans...

"> despite its WHO obligations, the CDC refuses to identify America’s Patient Zero and attacks those–including the WHO itself–who requests the information. The thesis of this article is that the CDC’s coverup will fail and the consequent revelations will hasten the fall of our First Republic..." "The Hunt for Patient Zero" (unz)

With jolly maps...

"...In 2017, Dr. Anthony Fauci expressed ‘no doubt’ that President Trump would face a viral pandemic during his tenure. In 2019, HHS’ Crimson Contagion pandemic report, marked ‘not to be disclosed,’ found Federal agencies jockeying over who was in charge, states and hospitals struggling to figure out..." (I wonder if the Good Doctor put money on his "no doubt" (insider "trading?")

"...On June 30, 2019, a pneumonia of unknown cause at Greenspring, a nursing home fifteen minutes from Fort Belvoir[3], VA, killed three and sickened 54...."

Posted by: Walter | Apr 11 2020 13:59 utc | 166

@150:

The point I made was related to the bias of this blog and the majority of its readers who seem to be stuck somewhere in the 70s when it was good manners to be rebellious, anti-religious, etc. The world has changed eversince, although atheistic regimes were already discredited long before that. Just have a look at what the 20th century brought forth to get an idea were the alleged redundancy of a consistent moral framework led to. Hitler and Stalin is what the world without morals demanded and this is what they got.

Regarding religion being the tools of the elite: It's really boring to hear this nonsense. You have no idea what you are talking about, you have no idea of the history and the inner logic of Abrahamic faith. The only think you are doing is parroting some Marxist bullshit about religion without ever thinking for yourself through everything. Otherwise you would recognize that things are much more complicated than the leaders of the agenda you are following might want to confess. I get it that you in the US have a problem with religious nonsensical freaks but that doesn't mean that the scriptures are responsible for that. If you want to argue against scripture, you have to show were the error is according to your reasoning. Otherwise your arguments are foolish and nothing more than emotional.

Posted by: mapa | Apr 11 2020 14:04 utc | 167

@150

By the way: Go to your Palestinian friends and ask them who is the invader in Palestine: Some confused Arabs who conquered the land and did not even know if they are actually Jewish, Christian or something new, or the mixture of Arabized and European Jews who started colonizing Palestine some 150 years ago? If I follow logic, both of them are conquerors. Just a little hint to give you the idea that things are much more complicated than you want to make me believe it. Things are much less clear than you think.

Posted by: mapa | Apr 11 2020 14:08 utc | 168

To me Gates gives me the same chills she gave me Greta Thunberg...
What this pair have in common? Apart from being in the side of and managed by TPTB...

Remember that Greta wanted us not travelling and fixed at home, village, nation, and poor ....well, she got with it, and then she dissapeared...and then came Gates to the first line....with his vaccines and ID project of total policial control...

Both Greta and Gates are/were usuals at the G20 summit and Davos Forum....

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Apr 11 2020 14:14 utc | 169

@24 karlof1

UTOPIA was a warning not just a cool TV series.

Posted by: TJ | Apr 11 2020 14:20 utc | 170

Jezz, what if the government is using old people at nursing homes to test new virus and vaccines, I wouldn't put it passed them, @ Walter.

Posted by: Bob burger | Apr 11 2020 14:49 utc | 171

If you want to see a success story against the COVID-19, look at Cuba:

Si estamos enfrentando con éxito la Covid-19 es por la obra de la Revolución

A un mes de la pandemia en Cuba

Cuba didn't flatten the curve: it crushed it.

--//--

Meanwhile, the SARS CoV-2 had quite a feast in NY yesterday:

Nearly 2,000 Dead as Coronavirus Ravages Nursing Homes in N.Y. Region

Anglo-saxon countries have a very strong culture of individual independence, therefore a high demand for nursery homes as the population gets older. Contrary to the Latin countries, old people don't stay to live with their adult children, but are exiled in nursery homes instead.

Nursery homes are a banquet for the SARS CoV-2. We already had a case of 11 deaths at the same time in a nursery home in Japan some weeks ago, and also the Seattle nursery home fiasco when the pandemic first reached the USA, so it's not that this was an unknown unknown.

--//--

As you westerners like to preach almost every day: vox populi vox dei:

60% in Japan feel government mishandled early stages of COVID-19 outbreak: poll

But please, fell free to continue to call me a "Japan hater".

Also:

Tokyo continues to reset single-day infection record with 197 fresh cases of COVID-19

The Japanese people should get ready to reset that number many times more.

--//--

In the Asian Paper Tiger:

Voter turnout in early voting hits record high despite coronavirus pandemic

They should also prepare to have record infections too.

Posted by: vk | Apr 11 2020 14:54 utc | 172

The Hunt For Patient Zero

It"s on and breaking into wider communication.

https://www.unz.com/article/the-hunt-for-patient-zero/

Posted by: chu teh | Apr 11 2020 15:00 utc | 173

@ 116 occupatio and @ 119 grieved.. thanks for both your comments.. i agree with the overview both of you gave...

@ all... what about ignoring the troll??? it was obvious with the name and the first statement they made..

Posted by: james | Apr 11 2020 15:14 utc | 174

Are those buried a guarantee that the virus will reappear once the tomb is disturbed?

Posted by: CarlD | Apr 10 2020 17:32 utc | 28

I do not think so. Some bacteria, notably tuberculosis, form spores that are very durable, and can activate as pathogens. But viruses rely on living cells, and in the absence, they probably degrade, even within the tissues of the deceased. I mean, I would still caution necrophiliacs to avoid such tomb for, say for a year. Disturbing tomb is not advised because of other pathogens, hence sensible social taboos.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Apr 11 2020 15:18 utc | 175

mapa @172

Where occupied Palestine is concerned things are perfectly clear. Who supports a one-state solution with full rights for everyone, including those displaced from their homes by violence and theft?

Answer that honestly and you will easily be able to see who the good guys and the bad guys are.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 11 2020 15:20 utc | 176

I read that there were trials of vaccines for corona viruses because of previous epidemics, but they did not work properly. Having antibodies for something may backfire if the immune reaction is self-destructively energetic, and this is what happened in the test on animal models. I guess it is similar to reaction to bites of bees and wasps. Some people react with an anaphylactic shock to a bite if they had strong reaction to the first bite (I am glad that I had only mild swelling from wasp bites in my life). So with vaccines for corona virii it may be similar.

So vaccines are worth pursuing, but it is not clear that they are possible.

Concerning Japan, they still have low numbers, and I would bet that the final numbers will be better than Europe and North America.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Apr 11 2020 15:34 utc | 177

Posted by: Walter | Apr 11 2020 12:40 utc | 164

Re: privateers, etc.

The operative feature of the situation is no oversight, Congress is interested in it's own affairs, the regulatory agencies are privatized, and journalism is mostly dead. So what you have is various power centers pursuing their own agendas and feeling entitled to speak for all about what they consider to be their baliwicks. Every once in a while one of those comes into conflict with the White House or powerful Congresspersons, and then a head or two may roll, as with Modly, but nothing much changes institutionally.

Jared's private enterprise in the PPE business is a perfect example, and representative of Trumpist governance, very old school.

So yeah, I wouldn't expect the privateering to come to much, but perhaps entertaining in a perverse sort of way.

There does appear to be plenty of piracy already going on in some places, not under cover of government authority, and USA has been stealing stuff right and left since Trump came into office, if not before.

Posted by: Bemildred | Apr 11 2020 15:53 utc | 178

Stonebird at 49.

I too have been somewhat mystified about the masks (France.) For readers outside F, the backdrop is really shameful. The Macron Gvmt. requisitioned All the Masks (like in war-time.) Contrary to other places, France has several cos. producing masks (though one large producer was sold to Honeywell in 2018) …and after the requisition order they stopped providing their long-standing customers: hospitals, old ppl’s homes, etc., because they did not know if that was permitted, and/or if they would be paid. Attempts (I have read and heard) to get information from the Health Ministry led nowhere. So they sat on their hands. (The good news is various cos. who make other stuff are ramping up.) Imho though the snarl has been sorted (?) Where the masks are going idk; perhaps it is only small quantities.

Very like the US, where FEMA has been requisitioning masks without any explanation. See the total confusion.. business insider:

https://tinyurl.com/sor4pxz

Eric Zuesse at 50. I posted this which may help..?

Drone video shows inmates digging mass burial graves on New York's Hart Island. ctv news:

https://tinyurl.com/vcjfpyn

Posted by: Noirette | Apr 11 2020 15:53 utc | 179

@your worst nightmare | Apr 11 2020 3:18 utc | 116

Okay, so your position is that the more contagious, more dangerous pathogen that is covid-19 has had its potential death projections reduced by 98% (from Dr Fauci's estimate which precipitated the quarantine, the shuttering of businesses, etc) but over the exact same period of time pneumonia and flu, which are also infectious diseases transmitted from person to person the same way as covid-19, only with much less ferocity, have seen absolutely no decrease in deaths? Are you daft?

The Trump administration could be, ahem, "encouraging" hospitals to reassign the cause of death from Covid-19 to flu. This reduces the coronavirus death count, which is what Trump the conman wants; he desperately needs to reduce the pressure his administration has been deservedly getting for his bungling of the coronavirus crisis.

Of course, the reassignment is preventing the flu count from going down, as it should be doing. In fact, the artificially elevated flu count is good evidence that the reassignment is occurring.

Trump is probably hoping that few people will notice what you did, namely that the lockdown should reduce fatalities from ALL infectious diseases, not only Covid. As an experienced conman, he knows he's probably right.

Posted by: Cyril | Apr 11 2020 16:06 utc | 180

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/three-national-polls-show-majority-americans-agree-trump-calling-coronavirus-chinese

"CORONAVIRUSTHREE Polls Show Majority Of Americans Agree With Trump Calling Coronavirus ‘Chinese’" "The polls were all conducted in late March and early April, each showing 52%, 54% and 52% of Americans in agreement with the President."

"Scientists have noted that up to 95% of the spread of coronavirus could have been averted, had the Chinese government acted sooner."

Published today ZeroHedge. Zero in -> find its source and Author no such person as "Steve Watson" either... not Jennifer Zeng nor Epoch Times or Chris Chappell China Uncensored. Got it! "Summit News" does not disclose ownership, though it is presumed Paul Joseph Watson, former editor for Infowars is the owner.

Posted by: JC | Apr 11 2020 16:10 utc | 181

mapa
you are an idiot, go and read a book about the Hasmoneans and another one on the Nabateans, and you will see that the issue is more complex than you think; and when you are at it, search for "Yehud" as a Babylonian and a Persian province

Posted by: Tomtom | Apr 11 2020 16:15 utc | 182

So browsing the charts at Worldometer today, it looks like we went from ~200k to ~500k in around 11 days, and the chart looks more linear, as opposed to exponential, so maybe the self-sequestering etc. is having some effect on national numbers, but we are still heading for ~1.2million cases by ~April 22. Number of dead lags, and still looks exponential, curving up.

Posted by: Bemildred | Apr 11 2020 16:19 utc | 183

Posted by: JC | Apr 11 2020 16:10 utc | 191

I used to keep an eye on ZeroHedge, despite the libertarian dipshittery, useful as a news & views aggregator, but they have made themselves useless with the China bashing, as so many before them with Russiagate and other sellouts to propaganda obsessions.

Gresham's Law applies to news too.

Posted by: Bemildred | Apr 11 2020 16:26 utc | 184

financial matters @ 162

Someone must understand the ventilator issue...

Johnson is being given oxygen but “the prime minister is not on a ventilator,” announced Cabinet Office Minister Michael Gove — who also went into isolation after a family member showed symptoms.

Boris Johnson receives oxygen in ICU as he continues coronavirus battle

We need more ventilators to kill people while we give oxygen to the rulers? The cheap treatments that work are reported to work are shunned? Is he getting zinc and Chloroquine as well?

There is a distinct lack of coordination of information globally on these issues. How can so much misunderstand of treatment be so widespread for so long?

Posted by: dltravers | Apr 11 2020 16:27 utc | 185

concerned @ 88.

The COV “crisis” is creating extra deaths. Extra, as compared to what was, is, expected in the last say 20 years for the months of feb-mar-apr.

Even a minor surge in ‘surpise, unexpected’ corpses arriving in a short time-span is enough to throw the usual mechs. out of kilter, as all is planned to be just in time.

By contrast, many hospitals have very reduced activity and are partly empty. All non-urgent care has been cancelled, elective surgery is put off sine die, and emergency rooms have incomers cut by 75% or more (off the cuff no. for world) as ppl either don’t go for fear of infection — the usual accidents (road, sports, work, druggies, aggro..) — other (flu ..sepsis from injuries.. etc.) and more .. are extremely reduced as confinement puts a halt to much of that.

So docs and med staff (in the US) are experiencing pay cuts, furloughs, even firings, as they can’t be counted-on agents of profit (COV patients cost a lot but won’t/can’t pay..) While at the same time some no. of COV patients are stretching some ‘services’.. For sure the reporting about all this is low level BS, more should be found out, exposed.

Posted by: Noirette | Apr 11 2020 16:35 utc | 186

The Hunt For Patient Zero

Its on and breaking into wider communication.

https://www.unz.com/article/the-hunt-for-patient-zero/

@Posted by: chu teh | Apr 11 2020 15:00 utc | 173

Some days ago, I pointed out at the neccesity of searching for patient zero as a "bascis in epidemiology" which the US refuse to do, and got not only harshly insulted but alos "decreed" having lost respect by one "c1ue" commenter who seems has hijacked this comments section since last time I commented more or less regularly here...

Take yoru own conclusions....

And, morevoer, he does it in an unmolested way...without almost any opposition...and even encouraged by alleged regular "leftists"...

Take your own conclusions...

I wonder why from time to time this blog becomes so...

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Apr 11 2020 16:54 utc | 187

@chu teh | Apr 11 2020 15:00 utc | 173

The Hunt For Patient Zero

It"s on and breaking into wider communication.

https://www.unz.com/article/the-hunt-for-patient-zero/


The plot thickens
Stanford Researchers Say Californians May Have Herd Immunity to COVID-19
As heartbreaking images of a mass grave on New York City’s Hart Island garner national attention, some wonder why California, the West Coast epicenter of the pandemic, isn’t being hit harder. Stanford University researchers believe the COVID-19 virus came to California last fall and was misidentified as a bad outbreak of the flu. Now, it’s possible millions of Californians were exposed to the virus and have developed herd immunity. Plus, Dr. Oz gives tips on how to properly wear a mask.


Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 11 2020 17:20 utc | 188

-116 occupatio & 119 Grieved; Great comments on mistrust of Gov.

A mistrust carefully cultivated for decades by big $, when Ronald Reagan first uttered the phrase; "The government isn't the solution, it's the problem."

Our present situation belies that comment. As long as Gov. works on behalf of the WHOLE population, it is sometimes, the ONLY solution.

Problem is, for decades, it hasn't. " Of, by, and for the people", hasn't been the reality in the U$A for decades.

Posted by: ben | Apr 11 2020 17:21 utc | 189

a more deadly better Trojan than a coronavirus

Posted by: snake | Apr 11 2020 17:23 utc | 190

We will see about this "pandemic" when total morbidity statistics are sorted out...no excess morbidity, no pandemic, just reclassification of causes of death, viz.https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=207&v=V0lIWZpiRU0&feature=emb_logo There is no reliable data on Covid19, but everybody "knows" what is going onhttps://www.statnews.com/2020/03/17/a-fiasco-in-the-making-as-the-coronavirus-pandemic-takes-hold-we-are-making-decisions-without-reliable-data/

Posted by: skeptic23 | Apr 11 2020 17:25 utc | 191

Don Wills | Apr 11 2020 1:28 utc | 103

...for the zinc which then enters the cell and disrupts the corona virus replication process.

Recent nano-delivery products are acknowledged mechanisms to deliver Vitamin C to cells far more efficiently than other oral delivery methods. {Liveon co. seems to have pioneered using nano-coated Vit C that is shielded from usual consumption in the bloodstream which permits little to actually reach cell tissue throughout the body...which suggests why IV-delivered C in large doses seems to work so well.]

In using nano-tech, the C is coated so that it mostly reaches the cells which, in turn, consume the coating thus releasing the C right at the cell. [the coating is v similar to cell-membrane lipids, thus is easily consumed by the cell.]

Well, could nano-zinc be delivered that way, I wonder.

Posted by: chu teh | Apr 11 2020 17:33 utc | 192

Your Worst Nightmare @ 124
"You fucking retards are dumber than I even gave you credit for. . . " ja da ja da
++++++++++++

Trash talk is troll talk.

Posted by: Really?? | Apr 11 2020 17:37 utc | 193

@145 Posted by: Tony | Apr 11 2020 10:14 utc | 145

Yes, there is a virus and it is very convenient, for some.
I have been grappling with that troubling aspect (of course the whole thing is troubling in many aspects).

I see a trail of logic.

I am not a China basher so please spare me the histrionics.
China benefits greatly and is the axis of globalism, neo-liberalism.
China does many things well, but human rights and liberty are not their main concerns (nor for any nation possibly).

There is a group which is diverging from the neo-liberal path to Utopia (and wealth, for some) and promoting nationalism. Globalism/Neo-liberalism leads toward socialism and authoritarianism - unappealing to some, I suppose.
The nationalists have made progress in undermining the NWO.

NWO have thrown a grenade in the window and walked away casually.

I can see where China might do this to their people for the good of the nation - which was in grave danger.
NWO is favored by global agendas.

Posted by: jared | Apr 11 2020 17:37 utc | 194

Oops, was my intent to say:
China benefits greatly FROM and is the axis of globalism, neo-liberalism.
Of course in the short term, China does not benefit from the virus.

Posted by: jared | Apr 11 2020 17:39 utc | 195

@ H.Schmatz | Apr 11 2020 16:54 utc | 187

Don’t despair over it. Just because something goes “unmolested” doesn’t mean people agree with it. Also, some of my favorite posters seem to lack respect for another, at least sometimes. Chillax and thank you for continuing to contribute.

Posted by: oglalla | Apr 11 2020 17:56 utc | 196

@Laguerre
@Noirette

It all comes down to "who do you trust"? The person responsible for saying that the masks are going to Hospitals and EHPADs is Castanier. You know, the one that met every demonstration of the Yellow Jackets with increasing (police) violence, shot out eyes (17) and so on. (Incidentally there has never been a single cop/flic summoned before a court to "explain" anything).

The part about masks going to EHPADs seemed to be a lie, as I noticed by comparing the second article that complained about a command for masks destined for St. Claude, not being met.

The next bit is hearsay; as someone who watches television told me (I no longer watch anything). That a small town/village (type 2-3000 inhabitants) in the massive centrale has a "catchment " of about 15'000 people from the surrounding area that depend on it for normal supplies. Means a lot of people at once in one or two streets. The Mayor, quite reasonably, decreed that all visitors should have masks or at least cover their noses/face with a tissue, scarf etc. while in town. Castanier suddenly decides that these are "unecessary" and possibly illegal ! So the Mayor was told off. Either Castanier is incompetant, or aggressively incompetant (ie, goes out of his way to thrust his incomptance on others like Pompeo)

Add to this Macron is now trying to distance himself from having taken any responsibility that might be considered wrong. (It is always someone elses fault)
The French Government, has not exactly shone with wisdom so far, so I wondered who is really getting the stock. But it may be that they don't even know themselves.

Posted by: Stonebird | Apr 11 2020 18:12 utc | 197

My morning drive-by is from a Global Times op/ed:

"Obviously, the US political climate does not encourage necessary responses to fight COVID-19, or what people like Crozier and Lin have warned of should have received attention. When those who stand up for others are mistreated by those in power, how can those in power be expected to act on behalf of their people and care for the health and lives of others?

"The farce that has unfolded in the US Navy and throughout American society is alarming and serves as an accurate reflection of how the US response to the COVID-19 pandemic has been an utter failure. Freedom of expression and the flow of information, both of which are supposedly essential values held by all Americans, are far from secure in the US....

"It should not come as a surprise that the US has performed the worst among all nations fighting COVID-19. The US has over 500,000 confirmed cases and 18,758 fatalities as of press time. The unpredictable nature of the US government is revealed and demonstrated almost daily." [My Emphasis]

The bolded point is part of the massive Moral Failure of the Outlaw US Empire that ought to have been anticipated. That's all I have time for presently.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 11 2020 18:19 utc | 198

This is encoraging, re. use of Hydroquinone:
https://nypost.com/2020/04/11/doctors-pols-urge-use-of-miracle-coronavirus-drug-cocktail/

Posted by: jared | Apr 11 2020 18:30 utc | 199

Piotr Berman | Apr 11 2020 15:34 utc | 177

In matters of immune response, the first contact with "poison oak" does not result (almost never) in a reaction. The second time (most people) have a very unpleasant reaction. The California Red Indians used poison oak to remove warts... I suppose it would work for skin cancer, I dunno.

Posted by: Walter | Apr 11 2020 19:37 utc | 200

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