Warning: As much as I admire him - I want to warn every one: clicking on the title of Pepe Escobar's newest book is a link to ah -mah - zone, aka the world spy cloud. No thanks.

Posted by: Miss Lacy | Apr 10 2020 15:54 utc | 1

Re: Effective home-made mask insert/liner material: Two brands of cheap widely available blue shop towels are found to work great: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNDE12HymYc (starts at minute 31:20).

Re: bubonic plague in Mongolia. Sporadic human Yersinia pestis infections have been endemic in American Southwest for many years.

Posted by: gm | Apr 10 2020 15:54 utc | 2

"This is not really any different to a farmers' market back in the UK" --From video our host linked above concerning wet markets.

Wet markets really are just farmers' markets that also happen to sell fresh fish (thus the "wet" part of their label) and poultry and sometimes beef and pork.

Readers can display how susceptible they are to mass media driven hysteria and jingoism and perhaps also reveal unacknowledged racism by insisting that there is something fundamentally different about Asian farmers markets from the local ones they themselves shop at for the freshest foods. To readers who feel compelled to object, I suggest they invest the effort into introspection instead.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 10 2020 16:05 utc | 3

thanks b... the most significant outbreak in india is also associated with a religious gathering in delhi.. they went ahead with the meeting and ignored what the gov't was saying.. in the case of kansas state, perhaps pompeo doesn't want to miss a chance to pray to his god on a sunday and maybe it will work out for him and us here..

Posted by: james | Apr 10 2020 16:07 utc | 4

A German team lead by virologist Hendrick Streeck has now researched the German Hot Spot Heinsberg. They tested 1000 randomized people and found that a whopping 15% was infected - most of them without showing any symptoms.

Based on this preliminary findings the scientists conclude that the letality of COVID-19 is 0,37%. They also conclude that the virus has successfully installed itself in the population and is impossible to eradicate without a year-long lock down, making herd immunity the preferential goal to achieve.

Video of press conference (in German):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on8rqsikm88

Posted by: mk | Apr 10 2020 16:13 utc | 5

Even at 1%, the COVID-19 is still ten times deadlier than the common flu, so I never understood the "it's just a strong flu" argument.

Here's a quick explanation on how risk analysis approach this pandemic:

Lives or livelihoods?

Here is that view: “if funds are not limitless – then we should focus on doing things whereby we can do the most good (save the most lives) for the least possible amount of money. Or use the money we have, to save the most lives.” Health economics measures the cost per QALY. A QALY is a Quality Adjusted Life Year. One added year of the highest quality life would be one QALY. “How much are we willing to pay for one QALY? The current answer, in the UK, is that the NHS will recommend funding medical interventions if they cost less than £30,000/QALY. Anything more than this is considered too expensive and yet the UK’s virus package is £350bn, almost three times the current yearly budget for the entire NHS. Is this a price worth paying?” This expert reckoned that “the cost of saving a COVID victim was more than eleven times the maximum cost that the NHS will approve.” At the same time cancer patients are not being treated, hip replacements are being postponed, heart and diabetes sufferers are not being dealt with.

Tim Harford in the FT took a different view. He points out that the US Environmental Protection Agency values a statistical life at $10m in today’s money, or $10 per micromort (one in a million risk of death) averted. “If we presume that 1 per cent of infections are fatal, then it is a 10,000 micromort condition. On that measure, being infected is 100 times more dangerous than giving birth, or as perilous as travelling two and a half times around the world on a motorbike. For an elderly or vulnerable person, it is much more risky than that. At the EPA’s $10 per micromort, it would be worth spending $100,000 to prevent a single infection with Covid-19. You don’t need a complex epidemiological model to predict that if we take no serious steps to halt the spread of the virus, more than half the world is likely to contract it. That suggests 2m US deaths and 500,000 in Britain — assuming, again, a 1 per cent fatality rate. If an economic lockdown in the US saves most of these lives, and costs less than $20tn, then it would seem to be value for money.” The key point for me here is that this dilemma of ‘costing’ a life would be reduced if there had been proper funding of health systems, sufficient to provide ‘spare capacity’ in case of crises.

It is also a myth that lockdowns lower life expectancy. This is pure money fetichism. Besides the fact that almost nobody dies of hunger in one month, you have to take into account that mortality by violent causes (car accidents, workplace accidents in dangeours jobs, etc.) also fall:

But the Bristol study is just a risk assessment. Proper health studies show that recessions do not increase mortality at all. A recession – a short-term, temporary fall in GDP – need not, and indeed normally does not, reduce life expectancy. Indeed, counterintuitively, the weight of the evidence is that recessions actually lead to people living longer. Suicides do indeed go up, but other causes of death, such as road accidents and alcohol-related disease, fall.

Marxist health economist Dr Jose Tapia (also an author of one of the chapters in our book World in Crisis) has done several studies on the impact of recessions on health. He found that mortality rates in industrial countries tend to rise in economic expansions and fall in economic recessions. Deaths attributed to heart disease, pneumonia, accidents, liver disease, and senility—making up about 41% of total mortality—tend to fluctuate procyclically, increasing in expansions. Suicides, as well as deaths attributable to diabetes and hypertensive disease, make up about 4% of total mortality and fluctuate countercyclically, increasing in recessions. Deaths attributed to other causes, making up about half of total deaths, don’t show a clearly defined relationship with the fluctuations of the economy. “All these effects of economic expansions or recessions on mortality that can be seen, e.g., during the Great Depression or the Great Recession, are tiny if compared with the mortality effects of a pandemic,” said Tapia in an interview.

The food problem (for those who can't afford, because production was never the problem) can be easily solved by a simple scheme of food banks.

They key, thus, is to avoid healthcare systems collapses. As long as the healthcare system stands, mortality in general should lower - but that's obviously not the case in many countries, as decades of neoliberalism had a deteriorating effect on them.

The economic impact (fall in GDPs) has a merely geopolitical effect: yes, the West will emerge smaller from this pandemic. But then, it was already degenerating since 2008.

Posted by: vk | Apr 10 2020 16:20 utc | 6

@ 1 Miss Lacy (and for anyone) Good point! Following is the Barnes & Noble link. Maybe better, or "less evil" at least? I always wonder why everyone, even us lefty-ish sorts, seem to default to Lord Bee Zo's site for book links. I try to find the corresponding B&N one and share when I can. Would like to hear if I am naive or mistaken about this. https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/2030-pepe-escobar/1123093176?ean=9781608880355

Posted by: Prairie Bear | Apr 10 2020 16:21 utc | 7

maybe not related ... or is it ?
Chinese gene-edited babies

Posted by: gofigure | Apr 10 2020 16:22 utc | 8

In the past two days, I've heard PM Trudeau say that some lockdown restrictions will need to remain UNTIL a VACCINE is found. Going by a word search, it seems like that's become the MSM accepted wisdom. Did I miss something earlier?

Posted by: spudski | Apr 10 2020 16:28 utc | 9

I had already read the piece by Pepe Escobar. One thing I like about Pepe is his upbeat outlook on everything. ;>)

Posted by: Rob | Apr 10 2020 16:44 utc | 10

Why are some places hit harder? /Timing, lag has to be taken into account./

Best explanation at present, possibly: super spreaders, quick transmission, etc. in one place and not another, that is, random, Fate.

Yet, humans like to find ‘factors’ and ascribe ‘correlation / causation’ or even ‘blame’ etc. Familiar w. N. Italy, here the explanations.

-- Preamble, a self-explanat. chart, a comparison of deaths in the first 3 weeks of March for various It. districts, 2019 vs 20. 1. Generally speaking, COV deaths should be multiplied by 2 to 6 (for the stats we have now in W countries.)

A factors. Older population (compared to what? China, yes, Japan, no. Germany, not too different.)

B. Outbreak of meningitis dec-jan 19-20 and 30K vaccines therefor. High legionella contamination (makes one susceptible to viral infections.) Relative lack of BCG vaccine (like US, UK, Netherlands, Canada..) 2

(can’t say about these factors.)

C. Smokers, kissy-huggy culture. Of course as lungs are affected it was presumed smokers would be worse off. In fact (I have read) smoking reduces the no. of ACE 2 receptors, so might even be protective. The only meta-study I could find shows no effect for ‘active smokers.’ 3. The kisses are just sweet.

D. Air pollution (yes it is highish for EU), humidity (hmm idk), dense 5G network, hmm.

E. Poor health care which collapsed. For sure, many nurses left, went back to East EU. Beyond that ..who knows. HC in Lombardy afaik is v. standard ‘W’ - not superb, and quite privatised (hard to know, describe) this is an issue of no. of patients / staff / space / equipment and tipping points or thresholds, which will always be ‘local’ ..

F. other - ? Might one day include ‘effects of x/y/z treatment’ but that is blank for now.

twitter: https://tinyurl.com/ua9hhjo

india times (news, but explains pretty well)

https://tinyurl.com/qs3m6y8

science paper about smoking

https://www.ejinme.com/article/S0953-6205(20)30110-2/fulltext

Posted by: Noirette | Apr 10 2020 16:46 utc | 11

@3 Maybe next time videoboy can visit a real wildlife market. If he doesn't mind the risk of getting lynched.

Posted by: dh | Apr 10 2020 16:51 utc | 12

@9 If true, Trudeau is essentially saying that some lockdown restrictions will be permanent as the chance for a vaccine in the next few years is small.

I suspect that as food shortages become more widespread (caused by both job losses and supply chain disruptions), the old adage that we are only 9 meals away from anarachy will become reality. In the US, will the National Guard shoot people to enforce such lockdown restrictions? Hopefully that's a rhetorical question that will never be answered in practice.

Posted by: Don Wills | Apr 10 2020 16:52 utc | 13

For the miss-guided people over at off-gardian, I understand the hostility you showed toward MOA yesterday was a symptom of the fear and realisation caused by this virus.
This US/U.K. bio-warfare.

Please don’t encourage people to break the lockdown !! It’s basic need is medical not political !!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon

Your strong criticism of politicians are shared with people here at MOA !!
Punch upwards not down wards.

OFF GARDIAN HEED THIS LINK !

Posted by: Mark2 | Apr 10 2020 16:59 utc | 14

speaking of other viruses, China also had these new infestations in the last two years, coinciding with the US-China trade war:

--February 15, 2018: H7N4 bird flu. Sickened at least 1,600 people in China and killed more than 600. Many chickens killed. China needs to purchase US poultry products.

--June, 2018: H7N9 bird flu. Many chickens killed. China needs to purchase US poultry products.

--August, 2018: outbreak of African swine flu. Same strain that hit Russia. Millions of pigs killed. China needs to purchase US pork products.

--May 24, 2019: massive infestation of armyworms in 14 province-level regions in China, which destroyed most food crops. Quickly spread to more than 8,500 hectares of China’s grain production. They produce astonishing numbers of eggs. China needs to purchase US agricultural products – corn, soybeans.

--January, 2020: China is hit by a “highly pathogenic” strain of bird flu in Hunan province. Many chickens died, many others killed. China needs to purchase US poultry products.

Posted by: occupatio | Apr 10 2020 17:03 utc | 15

Re: Effective home-made mask insert/liner material: Two brands of cheap widely available blue shop towels are found to work great: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNDE12HymYc (starts at minute 31:20). Re: bubonic plague in Mongolia. Sporadic human Yersinia pestis infections have been endemic in American Southwest for many years. by: gm @ utc 2

I found it easy to make a mask of > 1" scotch tape(basically shipping tape).. 1 length of tape long enough to cover the mouth(leaving a bend in the tape(over the lips, to breath and respire air though and from each end of the bend) and affixed to the face backward toward the ear..
another piece of tape over the bridge of the nose, covering mucus access to the nasal passages, extended long enough to cover the skin beneath the usual glasses that shield the eye. and one in front of each ear extending from the glue on the face area backward toward the back of the head. so that the airway path to the ear stays open from the top, as the back of the ear, can catch the mucus from a cough..

with plain tape one can fit one's face, mouth and nose with airway accessible tape coverings that can be removed as soon as, and before actually, entering one's safe space. Wash the face, hands, and ears with soap, water and >70% alcohol No more washing out a dirty cloth mask, just tape it, and go.. I won't guarantee it, but i sure feel safer with this home made than with a $7.50 tape from the convenience store. Especially after a one time use of the cloth mask.

Posted by: snake | Apr 10 2020 17:05 utc | 16

1. from FAIR: US ‘Disinformation’ Claims Do Exactly What Enemies Are Accused of: Distract From Covid-19 Failures
https://fair.org/home/us-disinformation-claims-do-exactly-what-enemies-are-accused-of-distract-from-covid-19-failures/
FAIR is one of those websites I visit on a regular basis (along with MoA of course).

2. FOX news: can Brian Kilmeade be any more dumb?

I get being partisan, or even so dogmatic that one holds contradictory views but BK did back to back interviews where I got to see a 180 degree contradiction within 60 seconds. First up, Karl Rove blames Obama for depleting our stockpile of medical equipment and protective gear. Beside the fact that Trump did nothing about it for 3yrs while bragging about rebuilding our military allegedly gutted by Obama, next up Gen. Jack Keane.
Gen. Jack Keane> - Our enemies, Russia, China, and Iran are using this opportunity to spread misinformation claiming that we were unprepared. But wait, isn't that exactly what Karl Rove said 60 seconds ago when he blamed Obama? Come on Brian, you can do it, say something, let's at least see an uncomfortable look on your face. No, the lights are off.

Posted by: Christian J Chuba | Apr 10 2020 17:06 utc | 17

speaking of 'other viruses', all these new infestations happened in China in the last two years -- coinciding with the US-China trade war:

--February 15, 2018: H7N4 bird flu. Sickened at least 1,600 people in China and killed more than 600. Many chickens killed. China needs to purchase US poultry products.

--June, 2018: H7N9 bird flu. Many chickens killed. China needs to purchase US poultry products.

--August, 2018: outbreak of African swine flu. Same strain that hit Russia. Millions of pigs killed. China needs to purchase US pork products.

--May 24, 2019: massive infestation of armyworms in 14 province-level regions in China, which destroyed most food crops. Quickly spread to more than 8,500 hectares of China’s grain production. They produce astonishing numbers of eggs. China needs to purchase US agricultural products – corn, soybeans.

--January, 2020: China is hit by a “highly pathogenic” strain of bird flu in Hunan province. Many chickens died, many others killed. China needs to purchase US poultry products.

Posted by: occupatio | Apr 10 2020 17:06 utc | 18

Not lockdown - contact tracing and testing
Atlantic source

In Italy, two similar regions, Lombardy and Veneto, took different approaches to the community spread of the epidemic. Both mandated social distancing, but only Veneto undertook massive contact tracing and testing early on. Despite starting from very similar points, Lombardy is now tragically overrun with the disease, having experienced roughly 7,000 deaths and counting, while Veneto has managed to mostly contain the epidemic to a few hundred fatalities.

Posted by: c1ue | Apr 10 2020 17:12 utc | 19

Whacky Asians spraying disinfectant all over the place

Since we in the U.S. are slowly copying everything China did at the beginning, I wonder when we will start spraying that mysterious mist on the public streets and in the subways. Serious question, what is that? I recall seeing that in other countries as well, perhaps Italy and Iran. I have not seen that discussed in the U.S.

BTW didn't mean anything by the 'whacky Asians' comment, it was a commentary on how native born Americans of European ancestry are too arrogant to look at how successful countries are dealing with the Covid outbreak.

Posted by: Christian J Chuba | Apr 10 2020 17:13 utc | 20

@1, Miss Lacy

For those afraid of Amazon as a click destination for books, the Escobar book can be purchased from eBay and Walmart.

Supporting Pepe is a good thing. Reading him is a good thing.

I usually find alternatives for anything I can purchase from Amazon. Bezos is one evil freak. I don't feed him. Ditto Google/Alphabet, and FB/Zuckerberg.

Posted by: Red Ryder | Apr 10 2020 17:14 utc | 21

The 'wet market' is nothing other than a standard fresh-food market found in a large number of countries, with perhaps more water tanks for shellfish (lobsters, crabs etc) than I've seen elsewhere. If there are water-tanks, it just means it's a more permanent installation - temporary street markets don't have them. For example, the place where I go in Bretagne, a fishing port, they have tanks for live shell-fish in the fishmongers shops, but not in the once-a-week street market.

The most disgusting thing in the video was the guy smoking while gutting a fish. You couldn't do that in Europe.

They didn't seem to be selling the chickens live, like we used to buy in Uganda.

Posted by: Laguerre | Apr 10 2020 17:15 utc | 22

Bill Gates and his evil Foundation have occasionally been discussed as COVID-19 has progressed. Pepe Escobar now takes note at his FB that the Financial Times has video interviewed him, and that RFK Jr. has made a long Instagram post in rebuttal, which follows as posted by Pepe:

"ROBERT F KENNEDY JR DESTROYS
"MESSIANIC" BILL MALTHUS GATES
"Here is his full Instagram post - which has become viral all over. A lot of people told me funny stuff was happening with it - so keep this copy for reference in case it "disappears".
A condensed review of the vaccine scams by the geek who destroyed Netscape because they had a
better OS.

"MUST READ."

"Vaccines, for Bill Gates, are a strategic philanthropy that feed his many vaccine-related businesses (including Microsoft’s ambition to control a global vac ID enterprise) and give him dictatorial control over global health policy—the spear tip of corporate neo-imperialism.
Gates’ obsession with vaccines seems fueled by a messianic conviction that he is ordained to save the world with technology and a god-like willingness to experiment with the lives of lesser humans.

"Promising to eradicate Polio with $1.2 billion, Gates took control of India ‘s National Advisory Board (NAB) and mandated 50 polio vaccines (up from 5) to every child before age 5. Indian doctors blame the Gates campaign for a devastating vaccine-strain polio epidemic that
paralyzed 496,000 children between 2000 and 2017. In 2017, the Indian Government dialed back Gates’ vaccine regimen and evicted Gates and his cronies from the NAB. Polio paralysis rates dropped precipitously.

"In 2017, the World Health Organization reluctantly admitted that the global polio explosion is predominantly vaccine strain, meaning it is coming from Gates’ Vaccine Program. The most frightening epidemics in Congo, the Philippines, and Afghanistan are all linked to Gates’ vaccines. By 2018, ¾ of global polio cases were from Gates’ vaccines.

"In 2014, the Gates Foundation funded tests of experimental HPV vaccines, developed by GSK and Merck, on 23,000 young girls in remote Indian provinces. Approximately 1,200 suffered severe side effects, including autoimmune and fertility disorders. Seven died. Indian government investigations charged that Gates funded researchers
committed pervasive ethical violations: pressuring vulnerable village girls into the trial, bullying parents, forging consent forms, and refusing medical care to the injured girls. The case is now in the country’s Supreme Court.

"In 2010, the Gates Foundation funded a trial of a GSK’s experimental malaria vaccine, killing 151 African infants and causing serious adverse effects including paralysis, seizure, and febrile convulsions to 1,048 of the 5,049 children.

"During Gates 2002 MenAfriVac Campaign in Sub-Saharan Africa, Gates operatives forcibly vaccinated thousands of African children against meningitis. Between 50-500 children developed paralysis. South African newspapers complained, “We are guinea pigs for drug makers”
Nelson Mandela’s formar Senior Economist, Professor Patrick Bond, describes Gates’ philantropic practises as “ruthless” and immoral”.

"In 2010, Gates committed $ 10 billion to the WHO promising to reduce population, in part, through new vaccines. A month later Gates told a Ted Talk that new vaccines “could reduce population”.

"In 2014, Kenya’s Catholic Doctors Association accused the WHO of chemically sterilizing millions of unwilling Kenyan women with a phony “tetanus” vaccine campaign. Independent labs found the sterility formula in every vaccine tested. After denying the charges, WHO finally admitted it had been developing the sterility vaccines for over a decade. Similar accusations came from Tanzania, Nicaragua, Mexico and the Philippines.

"A 2017 study (Morgensen et.Al.2017) showed that WHO’s popular DTP is killing more African than the disease it pretends to prevent. Vaccinated girls suffered 10x the death rate of unvaccinated children.

"Gates and the WHO refused to recall the lethal vaccine which WHO forces upon millions of African children annually. Global public health advocates around the world accuse Gates of – hijacking WHO’s agenda away from the projects that are proven to curb infectious diseases; clean water, hygiene, nutrition and economic development. They say he has diverted agency resources to serve his personal fetish
– that good health only comes in a syringe.

"In addition to using his philantropy to control WHO, UNICEF, GAVI and PATH, Gates funds private pharmaceutical companies that manufacture vaccines, and a massive network of pharmaceutical -industry front groups that broadcast deceptive propaganda, develop fraudulent
studies, conduct surveillance and psychological operations against vaccine hesitancy and use Gates’ power and money to silence dissent and coerce compliance.

"In this recent nonstop Pharmedia appearances, Gates appears gleeful that the Covid-19 crisis will give him the opportunity to force his third-world vaccine programs on American children."

Seems to me that Bill Gates and his ilk constitute another layer of parasites that require elimination as the Class War's dynamics are made clearer by the pandemic.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 10 2020 17:15 utc | 23

as for anticipating when this global shutdown is going to be over, Professor Zhang Wenhong (Head of the Center for Infectious Diseases at Shanghai's Fudan University) has makes the point that the 'endgame' does not depend on the country with earliest or best control, but the country with the worst. Because imported cases will continue to create new waves of global infection. So, global cooperation is of the utmost importance, especially assistance to countries ill prepared to deal with the virus.

The process in places like India is only just beginning and is nowhere near 'flattening'.

in other words, people need to get out of the narrow mindset of 'when will this end in my country?', and see the big picture.

Posted by: occupatio | Apr 10 2020 17:17 utc | 24

Ongoing compilation of Hydroxychloroquinine study data (Google docs)
Compilation of HCH study information by James Todaro, MD

Posted by: c1ue | Apr 10 2020 17:18 utc | 25

I also doubt that the widespread use of masks will solve the pandemic problem by itself. It will, ultimately, depend on the robustness of each national healthcare system - it may help a lot or not make any substantial difference at all.

I watched CGTN two days ago, and a local expert collected data from Wuhan and his findings were that, if 100% of the Wuhanese had worn masks, the necessary time for the lockdown would've only fallen by one week (i.e. the lockdown could've been lifted at March 31st, instead of April 8th).

The gains of wearing mask would still exist - but would fall considerably - until 80% of population using them. At 70% of population using masks rate, the gains would be negligible in terms of necessary lockdown enforcement time.

So you have the situation where either the whole population religiously wear masks the whole time in order to gain one week per two months of lockdown or you're basically throwing resources in the trash bin. I doubt the West will be capable of going through such drastic cultural change in so few time to a point where masks will make a substantial difference (for the population in general, for the medical staff it's a whole different story).

Yes, mask make a positive difference and there's no dispute of that. You should wear a mask if you have one. But you should also take the OMS official position literally: they are just "better than nothing", not a holy grail for the full reactivation of the economy.

Posted by: vk | Apr 10 2020 17:30 utc | 26

I have a question for the knowledgeable barflies here:

Should the Covid19 victims be buried or cremated?

Are those buried a guarantee that the virus will reappear once the tumb is disturbed?

Posted by: CarlD | Apr 10 2020 17:32 utc | 27

@ 21 Chuba

Brian Kilmeade is the biggest dope on MSM. Just the borderline cross-eyed look and breathless yet vacuous delivery of his teleprompted sentences makes me hysterical with laughter, and then he encourages Lindsey Graham's assertion to bomb Iran which brings me back to reality and the fact that Christian fundamentalists the country over believe Iran is actually a threat. Sheesh.

Tucker Carlson, OTOH, is the best operating cable pundit. From the worst to the best. FOX is really a good survey of America.

...

On the topic, a Steve Bannon interview I saw recently revealed to me that, yes, there is stirring good sense of his policy and views, when it comes to trade, but I did detect the faint odor of "international entanglements" when he started bringing up the wellbeing of the average Chinaman and how the CCP is a threat to their own people.

Hello, Mr. Bannon, you can't in one sentence advocate isolationist protectionism and then in the next declare some faint R2P reasoning that will resonate with the aforementioned fundamentalists in this country.

There is indeed reason to believe that the leftover remnants of R2P is still lingering in the dangerous words of the new movers and shakers in quasi-nationalist America.

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Apr 10 2020 17:37 utc | 28

"They conclude that high-quality vacuum cleaner bags are the best material usable for the purpose [of making masks]."

It appears that the material from which most (if not all) vacuum bags and HEPA filters are made includes fiberglass, and that cutting that material can release tiny bits of fiberglass that can then be breathed in and eventually cause pulmonary fibrosis.

If anyone knows for certain that the above is not true, please post the proof here as soon as possible.

Posted by: AntiSpin | Apr 10 2020 17:37 utc | 29

Following on from my previous comment to ——— OFF-GARDIAN writers and readers.
It’s not MOA that is being used by the elite, by encourage strong lock down and restrictions !
Off-Gardian has been infiltrated by the facist Tory’s. Just the same as the Labour Party ditto momentum! Rotting it from the inside.

You off- Gardian are encorageing people to break the lock-down, go out and infect other people spreading death throughout Britain!!!
WHY ?
Fools !!!
For the elite genocide plan

Posted by: Mark2 | Apr 10 2020 17:40 utc | 30

@ Posted by: CarlD | Apr 10 2020 17:32 utc | 28

Cremated.

But, in practice, most victims will be buried in mass graves and cheap coffins, as most crematoriums in the world don't have the capacity to absorb all the corpses that are coming daily.

Posted by: vk | Apr 10 2020 17:43 utc | 31

To Red Ryder and Prairie Boy - Yes, I do support Pepe. I have one of his books and intend to buy 2030. I do think that Mr. C eye A bozoboy and his cohorts are full on evil. I've been using alibris.com. Not a big fan of the Waltons either. I watched most of the generations old small businesses in my town die when the wallywackers bribed the local planning commission and built one of their monstrosities near by. People who want the cheapest get what they pay for IMHO. They never think that their neighbors, aka fellow taxpayers are paying the freight for these assholes.

Well anyway... cheers

Posted by: Miss Lacy | Apr 10 2020 17:49 utc | 32

At Gruff, #3

“Wet markets really are just farmers' markets that also happen to sell fresh fish (thus the "wet" part of their label) and poultry and sometimes beef and pork.”

“Readers can display how susceptible they are to mass media driven hysteria and jingoism and perhaps also reveal unacknowledged racism by insisting that there is something fundamentally different about Asian farmers markets from the local ones they themselves shop at for the freshest foods. “

I would respond that the fact that our local farmers markets don't generally sell the “wet” stuff is in and of itself a “fundamental difference.” If there are disease-vector issues with wetmarkets, the issue will likely have originated in the “wet” part of the market.

Antoinetta III

Posted by: Antoinetta III | Apr 10 2020 17:49 utc | 33

thanks, vk

This means, that down the line, the virus will be resuscitated for human beings' enjoyment.

Posted by: CarlD | Apr 10 2020 17:50 utc | 34

Some troubling news. Many infected individuals found to be "virus free" were retested and found to be positive again. Implications are as yet unclear, though, as this could mean that a) some tests yield "false negative" results, b) the virus may be reduced to undetectable levels but then multiply again within some individuals or c) people who had the virus and recovered are not immune to re-infection.

South Korea reports recovered coronavirus patients testing positive again

Posted by: farm ecologist | Apr 10 2020 17:51 utc | 35

PS re the wet market bs. Let's all grow up. Nearly every coastal town I've ever visited on four continents has a "wet market" i.e. tanks full of shell fish or crayfish or lobsters. There are plenty of places you can buy a live chicken and have it cut up. In souther murka they do love their trotters - i.e. pig's feet (gross in my opinion.) sea urchins any one? How about sea slugs? There's a tasty meal. I know, let's just call it a "fresh food" market. Hmmm?

With the deepest respect for your inner beauty. Cheers.

Posted by: Miss Lacy | Apr 10 2020 17:54 utc | 36

to antoinetta... really. You might want to read up on the "disease vectors" subject a bit. hepatitis A. Well it was in the salads - green onions in what was that restaurant chain? Started off in la-la land. Then there was Olive Garden wasn't i? Maybe. How many restaurants closed? I personally received a devastating case of salmonella from - bread pudding! cooked in a NY restaurant. The larger point may be, where so ever ye may be, wash thy hands and thy foodstuffs.

Posted by: Miss Lacy | Apr 10 2020 18:00 utc | 37

This sponsored message just showed up on my FB home page:

Bill Gates Sponsored ·

Become a Gates Notes Insider to stay updated on efforts to tackle global issues, participate in giveaways and more!

Posted by: spudski | Apr 10 2020 18:04 utc | 38

Steve Bannon is an American Exceptionalist. He argues that USA-style capitalism and Chinese communism are incompatible systems which cannot "compete" for influence because, to his thinking, the Chinese model will always "win" (i.e. seem a better system, particularly in Global south). He advocates first, strict de-coupling; and second, a WW2 level total war with goal of destroying CCP.

I know people who have taken to Bannon's populist message, but seem to miss the "total war" part. This is the danger of a USA lurch towards fascism, should such occur as the coronavirus lockdown proceeds, as a messianic crusade against the Chinese would be a centrepiece.

Posted by: jayc | Apr 10 2020 18:17 utc | 39

So there’s the American bio-warfare ’smoking gun’ namily Bill Gates. Thanks Karlofi @24

I’ve been wondering about the faceless people behind the scenes here in the U.K. so ———

Persons of interest. ———

sunray22b.net/hamish_de_brettongordon.html

This name will ring bells here regarding, The Skripals ! Underminining Labour and syria chlorine U.K. lie’s.
And oh look !!! PPE !

Posted by: Mark2 | Apr 10 2020 18:17 utc | 40

"If there are disease-vector issues with wetmarkets..." --Antoinetta III @34

No more so than with vegetables, but thank you for being honest and announcing your susceptibility to media-driven hysteria.

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 10 2020 18:25 utc | 41

wow, that litany of vaccine scandals tied to Bill Gates is crazy.

Posted by: occupatio | Apr 10 2020 18:30 utc | 42

misc. Social.

Drone video shows inmates digging mass burial graves on New York's Hart Island.

vid, 5 mins. Melancholic. ctv news:

https://tinyurl.com/vcjfpyn

Good times gone.

Coronavirus: Greater Manchester Police warning after 660 parties shut down.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-52221688

Health workers (usually OK paid or +++) are service types, cattle like other servants, serfs

Detroit hospital nurses refuse to work without more help, ordered to leave. cnn:

https://tinyurl.com/rts5bag

apologies for the link shorteners, orig. are sometimes impossibly long, where to is always posted, always SFW

Posted by: Noirette | Apr 10 2020 18:33 utc | 43

@37 Nobody is too worried about fish, crabs, chicken etc. The fact that dogs, cats, snakes, rats, bats etc. are sold and cut up under filthy conditions in the same general area is the issue. The trade in wild life is extensive in China (and other parts of Asia).....wet, dry, live, dead traditional and powdered.

May be a factor in virus mutation and transmission....maybe not....but denial isn't helpful.

Posted by: dh | Apr 10 2020 18:33 utc | 44

Further to my above @ 41
This is the buseness he is in /owns
Anyone more skilled at research than me ? I’d appreate help investigating this name ! He’s covering his tracks.

www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&ei=HWCOXoK-HOSTlwTemrWAAw&q=avon+protection&oq=avon+protection

Posted by: Mark2 | Apr 10 2020 18:35 utc | 45

SF Bay Area Covid updated April 8 and 9 unless noted
The last census lists a population of over 7 million people in nine counties and 101 cities.
State by county
California Totals as of 8 April

California contains 39.5 million people
18309 total cases +3943
492 Deaths +149
2059 Hospitalized confirmed cases +793
1085 in ICU +47
2803 Suspected cases hospitalized -164
530 Suspected cases in ICU -45

Alameda county (not including Berkeley)
Positive Cases: 681 +171
Deaths: 16 +4

Berkeley
Cases 32 +5
Deaths +1

Contra Costa County
484 Cases + 177
Deaths 8 +1
Total tested 6307 +1814
Hospitalized 31 -1

San Francisco County thru today
Positive cases 767 +400
Deaths 13 +5

San Mateo County
Positive cases 638 +152
Deaths 21 +8
Ventilators in use 53
Venitlators available 159
ICU beds in use covid 27
ICU beds available 32
Surge beds in use 97
Surge beds available 330

Santa Clara County
1442 Cases +294
Deaths 47 +8

Sonoma County
Active Cases 89 +34
Hospitalized 20 +1
Recovered 51 +32
Deaths 1
Tests 3251 +1331

Solono county
confirmed cases 115 +42
Deaths 2 +1
Active cases 39 +6
total hospitalizations 32 +10

Marin County
confirmed cases 154 +23
Deaths 10 +4
persons tested at County site 1956 +1182
Hospitalizations 29 +13

Santa Cruz County
Server down unable to update
Total cases 62 +3
Tests 794 Negative
Hospitalized 9
deaths 1 No change

Napa County
Active case 32 +12
Deaths 2

People continue to be thrown out of work at high levels. We have a few weeks to go to see if the shutdowns are extended. I would say about 50% of people are using masks in the stores I have been in. All non essential construction work has been halted.

The reported numbers do not look enormous but reported testing is only slightly increasing.

Posted by: dltravers | Apr 10 2020 18:35 utc | 46

@ Posted by: Prairie Bear | Apr 10 2020 16:21 utc | 7

You are not alone in minimizing use of Amazon. I too, when referring a book, always try to find a different link than Amazon.

Posted by: Nathn Mulcahy | Apr 10 2020 18:54 utc | 47

Don't take French statistics as true.
They have already added to the total some figures from Old Peoples Homes that were "counted separately".

(Unconfirmed bit) BUT, They continue to do so, as there were too many to be declared all at once. So they now add more to the declared total each day to "include" those cases not previously mentioned. However, this "rumour" has added credibility as there were 50 EHPADs (OAP homes) with known cases and the Central Government has been "requisitioning" millions of masks from the regions.
(This is confirmed by 2 articles in the "Voix du Jura" complaining about the taking of 2 million masks that would have then been supplied to EHPADs within the whole Rhone-Alpes-Bourgogne area. (+ second article referring to the lack of masks for health workers in EHPADS in the town of St. Claude.)

So there is an apparent "choice" being made of who gets the Masks, - not pensioners in OAP homes. Which is expected news in todays world - but it raises the question; who is being favoured ? Not the Police, as they don't have masks either, nor the whole younger population, as the Pharmacies "(Chemists) have been told not to expect masks before mid June.
So who?
.

Posted by: Stonebird | Apr 10 2020 18:58 utc | 48

"This picture shows New York City's mass graves on Hart Island."

I've tried to find documentation of that assertion, but not succeeded. Will you please tell me how to find documentation of it? Visually, the two picture-sources (the one that's shown at 0:55 in the Washington Post's embedded 3:43 anti-Iranian video, and the Hart Island pictures), seem to be of different places.

Posted by: Eric Zuesse | Apr 10 2020 19:00 utc | 49

Brian Kilmeade is the biggest dope on MSM

If you can stand watching a vacuous idiot...

Jesse Ventura forced Brian Kilmeade off the set

.

Jesse Ventura vs Fox & Friends, Smacks Down Brian Kilmeade's Torture & 9 11 Propaganda

Posted by: dltravers | Apr 10 2020 19:15 utc | 50

@ Posted by: CarlD | Apr 10 2020 17:50 utc |

No worries as long as Covid corpses get a simple Muslim burial in a simple wrap or pine box, and moulders in peace in contact with plain old soil, buried most anywhere besides a permafrost deep-freeze like Greenland or Antarctica.

Hungry ubiquitous soil microbes can degrade most organic carbon given sufficient time, even used motor oil and nonhalogenated plastics, but they really prefer to eat tasty easily digested organic carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus sources, such as that available in the coronvirus RNA, proteins and lipids.

Posted by: gm | Apr 10 2020 19:21 utc | 51

Posted by: vk | Apr 10 2020 17:30 utc | 27

"I watched GTN two days ago, and a local expert collected data from Wuhan and his findings were that, if 100% of the Wuhanese had worn masks, the necessary time for the lockdown would've only fallen by one week (i.e. the lockdown could've been lifted at March 31st, instead of April 8th). "

Can you tell me which presenter CGTN said it? Further about CGTN...

I watches CGTN everyday, zero in TV - Liu Xin The Point, Tian Wei Insight, Yang Rui Dialogue and Zou Yue. programs on various time daily CGTN - TV.

However Yang Rui retired his last show on 27 March 4:00pm PST. Einar Tangen another excellent regular commentator, BTW Einar Tangen (in Beijing) a Korean and Norwegian descent from Milwaukee, WI.

Posted by: JC | Apr 10 2020 19:24 utc | 52

thriftbooks is an alternative to amazon.. https://www.thriftbooks.com/

powells books is another one.. https://www.powells.com/

discogs is another alternative is you are buying music related stuff.. https://www.discogs.com/my

fuck amazon..

Posted by: james | Apr 10 2020 19:31 utc | 53

I am rather gobsmacked that after all the political malfeasence created by the "West", commented and anyalized by Barflies, that this biological phenomenon, the ecology of the human body with respect to viruses has not been discussed. Humans are always breathing in thousands of different viruses, bacteria, fungal spores, pollen... which is the normal condition. One virus is supposed to supersede all natural human immune responses in order to protect, at most 0.01% of the world human population. Way more people in the world die of starvation in a any year than will be killed by viruses in any year, a completely preventable situation. There are other preventable situations that have higher mortality that don't get discussed within the same parameters as CoVid19 is discussed.
All I am left with, is that the so-called pandemic is for the benefit of the "priveleged panic seekers", whether they are the toxic exploiters like Bill Gates, or those do-gooders that believe the highly suspect preventative measures will prevent the threat of death!
I can't help seeing it as a scenario believed by many of society's most entitled as the most life threatening FOR THEM, but not EVERYBODY. But of course, only the entitled matter.

Posted by: Darryl Secret | Apr 10 2020 20:00 utc | 54

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon

Offguardian has been infiltrated

OFF GARDIAN HEED THIS LINK !

Posted by: Mark2 | Apr 10 2020 at various times

Objectively, the world leaders, most of whom we know to be mere sock puppets for the Global Cabal; in conjunction with the Global Media, the overwhelming percentage of whom we know to be either corporate organs or psyops of intelligence agences; using questionable "data" and "analysis" from academic and research institutions most of whom we understand are beholding to political and financial support of Deep Players; all these players INSIST that "the world as we know it has ended".

The world we are offered is one in which the members and agents of Global Cabal:

- will have freedom of movement
- will have feedome of assembly
- will have nobstructed access to communication network
- will be bearing arms including potentialy biological arsm
- intend to keep us under surveillance 24/7
- will have power to incarcerate
- will be ur only source of Food and Medicine
- will be our only source of protection from inevitable social unrest

There is more, but that should suffice. Noen of the above is subject to serious debate (trolls notwithstanding).

There is no way in the world that the Cabal would willingly destroy their own systems. They just upgraded the operating system, that's all peons. Ideologues such as VK that are possibly entertaining the "end of US empire" are also fool in my opinion. The "Empire" has shifted capitals multiple times.

It remains the same empire.

For full disclosure, I am a potential risk group for the "scary" virus: old and existing lung conditions.

You do not throw away all your rights and social protections for a measly 1% death rate.

You people are sleep walking into a nightmare global police state. There will NO possibility for dissent. NO possibility for revolt. NO possibiliy for alternative 'operating system' under the regime that B and company are bizzarely advocating.

Posted by: concerned | Apr 10 2020 20:14 utc | 55

Turkey places a two day curfew on 31 provinces starting at midnight tonight friday and ending midnight Sunday. Everything closed. So, now everyone is crowding markets, often not respecting the two meter distancing to get supplies before midnight. (prior to this, panick shopping hadn't occurred in Turkey). All because the sun is coming out for the next few days. Probably, this will help increase the spread of the virus rather than the opposite.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Apr 10 2020 20:18 utc | 56

Posted by: james | Apr 10 2020 19:31 utc | 54

fuck amazon..

Never bought a single item from that fucking Bezos. Did tried very early on found that freaking shit head spying on me that's it. As much as I dislike Ebay (Pierre Morad Omidyar), I still buy from Ebay.

Posted by: JC | Apr 10 2020 20:18 utc | 57

concerned | Apr 10 2020 20:14 utc | 56

"You people are sleep walking into a nightmare global police state. There will NO possibility for dissent. NO possibility for revolt. NO possibiliy for alternative 'operating system' under the regime that B and company are bizzarely advocating."

These things exist now? That is news to me.

I won't even address your incredibly ridiculous ideas of a "cabal" controlling the world.

Posted by: David F | Apr 10 2020 20:34 utc | 58

@ Posted by: JC | Apr 10 2020 19:24 utc | 53

Don't remember the occasion, but it was a Chinese expert who directly studied the data from Wuhan that presented his own work. So it was a primary source.

Posted by: vk | Apr 10 2020 20:36 utc | 59

WHAT WE MUST DO [no I am not Circe]:

- Organize your local neighbrohood. Key concern is communication under hostile conditions and communicating with adjacent neighborhoods. Set up dead drop zones, sneaker nets, etc. DO THIS NOW WHILE YOU STILL CAN.

- Volunteer. This is a good deed and also will increase the reach of your communication networks. Keep ideology and theories out of it. Remember that we're all in the same boat regardless of our various wooly notions and ideas, including your own. Be positive.

- PREPARE A MANIFESTO OF PEOPLE'S DEMANDS to authorities, news organizations and other involved institutions. The core of the message: "IF the world is changing, the changes must be universal". What this means is that you must start demanding: accurate reporting; inclusion of dissenting expert views; immediate start of random testing of population to nail down the actual picture; etc. INSIST ON CHANGES FROM LEADERS, MEDIA, AND INSTITITIONS.

Those are my immediate suggestions.

Posted by: anon | Apr 10 2020 20:46 utc | 60

Posted by: anon | Apr 10 2020 20:46 utc | 62

That's acutally me, moderator.

Posted by: concerned | Apr 10 2020 20:48 utc | 61

@ 40

Steve Bannon comes from Naval Intelligence. He's first an operative. Everything else about his life is cover for his agency work.

The US Navy is obsessed with control of all oceans and especially the South China Sea, Taiwan Strait and Strait of Malacca. Thus, the dread of China and its blue water navy.

Posted by: Red Ryder | Apr 10 2020 20:48 utc | 62

Sweden’s flawed coronavirus battle plan hits the poor & elderly, resulting in worst death count among Nordic countries

Just confirming what we already knew. Sweden's numbers are probably much worse than the official numbers, since countries that chose the laissez-faire route generally also gave up universal testing outright.

Meanwhile, in Japan:

Tokyo announces monthlong action plan to contain coronavirus outbreak

The plan? Ask the Tokyans to "self-isolate". Japan is literally three months behind everybody else (bar Sweden and the likes) in COVID-19 containment policies.

And there's more:

Tokyo Chief Suggests Postponed Olympics May Not Happen in 2021

No, he's not talking about organizing the Olympics at the end of 2020: he's talking about it not happening until July 2021.

As the Japanese corpses pile up, the local politicians are getting more and more sober - and somber - by the day.

The cancelation of the event would cost the Japanese governmnet USD 6 billion just taking into consideration the bills. They will do a study to assess the indirect wreackage to the economy. Goldman Sachs et caterva already released their forecasts, and they calculated, in March, that it would automatically cut 1.4% of the Japanese GDP for this year - which would put the country into recession.

Posted by: vk | Apr 10 2020 20:57 utc | 63

CarlD | Apr 10 2020 17:32 utc | 28:

The virus itself has a shelf life. Both methods are sufficient given enough time. The difference is that cremation is quicker and cheaper. But, there isn't enough crematoriums to handle pandemics. IIRC, it takes about a week per body under normal circumstances. I suppose mass cremations could be done but it will cause an uproar with many.

Posted by: Ian2 | Apr 10 2020 21:00 utc | 64

As the Japanese corpses pile up

Posted by: vk | Apr 10 2020 20:57 utc | 65

It's funny, vk. I remember back in the bad old days when "respected" news organizations would use loaded words like "holed up", "regime", etc. in their propaganda.

"corpses piling up". Are they actually piling up or are you using established propaganda techniques?

Posted by: concerned | Apr 10 2020 21:00 utc | 65

NBC News now reporting that U.S. intelligence observed evidence (communications intercepts and satellite imagery) of a public health crisis in Wuhan in November 2019. That's Wuhan, not Mongolia. Apparently, they weren't yet aware of precisely what the problem was, but they did distribute to federal public health officials a situation report on the matter in late November.

Posted by: lysias | Apr 10 2020 21:02 utc | 66

Posted by: Red Ryder | Apr 10 2020 20:48 utc | 64

The US Navy is obsessed with control of all oceans and especially the South China Sea, Taiwan Strait and Strait of Malacca. Thus, the dread of China and its blue water navy.

On a related note, there's lots of entertaining hand-wringing in this piece from The American Interest where the authors basically complain for umpteen paragraphs how China is beating the US at their own game in SE Asia. Scratching their heads, they moan about how most countries in the region are failing to fall for the US-led "Free and Open Indo-Pacific (FOIP)" initiative.

"...And yet, contrary to American expectations, the embrace of the FOIP by Southeast Asian states has been equivocal and underwhelming. The record over the past couple of years has been disappointing for those hoping there would be a more unified and robust response to Chinese strategic and defense activities and policies emanating from Southeast Asia... Instead, the ASEAN states have been co-opted by China in taking the focus away from United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) principles and international law and toward concentrating on the completion of a China-ASEAN Code of Conduct (CoC)..."

Countering China’s Grand Narratives

Posted by: farm ecologist | Apr 10 2020 21:09 utc | 67

Darryl Secret @55--

The concerns you voice were discussed during the initial phase of the outbreak, particularly that many tens of thousands die yearly from flu. The estimated 40k that die yearly from preventable illnesses within the Outlaw US Empire is well known and discussed as is the incredibly woeful state of what's known as healthcare within the Empire. The hypothesis that this event was unnatural was and continues to be discussed. Just go back and read most of March's articles and comments to see for yourself. Now it's quite obviously being used to escalate the Class War within the Outlaw US Empire, which I've certainly commented upon and tried to inform about and just did recently on the current open thread.

So Darryl, don't just comment; get involved in the Class War and fight back. The #1 policy goal of the Outlaw US Empire to establish Full Spectrum Dominance is just another name for what's been an ongoing struggle lasting 3K+ years--the war between debtors and creditors: The Class War!

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 10 2020 21:12 utc | 68

Concerned @ 56
You appear to be trying to devide the opposition to the elite !
Just as they did successfully with the Labour Party !
If you took the trouble to look way way back at previous MOA posts you would realise you are attacking one of the best truth sites on the net.
————
Your list I agree with, all true ! So I find it both strange and suspect that you therefore flatly refuse to consider that this virus is a USA/U.K. germ warfare originating from a lab. It has been pointed out ‘who gains’
Your blind denial needs further hard evedence !
———
Your personal disclosure is welcome. If true seems rather selfish, Typhoid Mary esq.
I remind you the key disagreement you have seems to be miss-understanding that medically the correct defence to a epidemic/ pandemic is isolating the source and isolating from the source!
Politicaly I agree this is defiantly being exploited.
My stance is ——— fight the virus medically but fight the elite by exposing them. You appear to want to disregard this virus source!! Suspect !
Off-Gardian has done tremendous work in the past, it’s followers are good people.
But are wrong minded on this! It’s a bio weapon.

Posted by: Mark2 | Apr 10 2020 21:21 utc | 69

The trade in wild life is extensive in China (and other parts of Asia).....wet, dry, live, dead traditional and powdered.

Posted by: dh | Apr 10 2020 18:33 utc | 45

Nah, it's not that extensive. There's no great point in eating exotic wild animals, other than to show off that you can afford to do so. It's exhibition of wealth, and therefore not that big a market. "Wet markets" are quite a different matter. The word just means fresh food markets, apparently of Hong Kong origin.

Posted by: Laguerre | Apr 10 2020 21:31 utc | 70

but it raises the question; who is being favoured ? Not the Police, as they don't have masks either, nor the whole younger population, as the Pharmacies "(Chemists) have been told not to expect masks before mid June.

Posted by: Stonebird | Apr 10 2020 18:58 utc | 49

The problem is no different from that in Britain, so not really an issue. They're reserving masks for the hospitals. Stocks were run down over the last 10 years or more for reasons of economy under Sarkozy and Hollande. And then all the masks were bought up within a day or so of the lockdown announcement (fr. confinement).

There must be a black market in France though, as everyone in the street is wearing a mask, except me, who's still wearing a scarf.

Posted by: Laguerre | Apr 10 2020 21:46 utc | 71

Another reply: to Posted by: Red Ryder | Apr 10 2020 20:48 utc | 64

"The US Navy is obsessed with control of all oceans and especially the South China Sea, Taiwan Strait and Strait of Malacca. Thus, the dread of China and its blue water navy."

Beside Korea and Japan US Navy bases has one base in Sembawang naval base Singapore, a former British Navy base during the colonial era, British powerful navy fleet East of Suez...

It seem the days of US of A blue ocean fleet are numbered most aircraft. Good Luck US of A, even France 's Charles de Gaulle are infested "The results of 66 tests showed 50 cases of COVID-19"

https://www.foxnews.com/us/coronavirus-theodore-roosevelt-aircraft-carrier

Posted by: JC | Apr 10 2020 21:50 utc | 72

In an interview with the Navy Times, Secretary of Defense Esper left open the possibility of reinstating Captain Crozier, the removed commander of the Theodore Roosevelt.

Posted by: lysias | Apr 10 2020 21:57 utc | 73

@concerned 56

Objectively, the world leaders, most of whom we know to be mere sock puppets for the Global Cabal

You need to make use of a dictionary and look up ‘objective’. Last time I checked it was not a synonym for paranoid delusion.

The ironic thing is that while you nutcases go around thinking world events advance in a strictly linear fashion with a super secret Global Cabal of omnipotent Bond villains at the helm, there really is something that unites the wealthy and powerful in common cause. It’s called capital, i.e. money, and they seek to fanatically hoard and multiply this stuff no matter how many lives get destroyed in the process.

And unlike the existence of your Global Cabal (the caps are a nice touch, btw...very Serious) there is ample evidence of this fact. But in this system power is decentralized and chaos and randomness do creep in, and things don’t always proceed along a predictable or linear trajectory. Perhaps most importantly, there are ways for ordinary people to fight the power of capital and build systems that work in their interests.

By choosing to believe in paranoid fantasies, you relegate yourself to permanent victim status and thus remain completely impotent and powerless. The Bill Gates’s and Jeff Bezos’s of the world and their lackeys in government thank you for handing them your balls in a bag and making their work that much easier.

PS - The ruling class are absolutely using the coronavirus outbreak to consolidate their power, and we may well end up living under a more authoritarian system as a result. But the pandemic itself is real, i.e. it is not a hoax, or “just a flu”, and the fact that you cannot see this isn’t that surprising given that you see only what you want to see, and not what is actually there right in front of your eyes.

Posted by: Daniel | Apr 10 2020 22:00 utc | 74

It’s easy to criticise people’s actions, cheap infact !
But what would have happened if no one had taken eny isolation action ?
We have witnessed how quick this virus spread around the world around, each country ?
Only a total fool would suggest, letting this spread unchecked ! Just stop and picture that outcome in the minds eye ! Thanks but no thanks.
They even knew this hundreds of years ago with the Black Plague ect.
Dam and those off-Gardian folk think their intelligent. Wake up off-Gardian

Posted by: Mark2 | Apr 10 2020 22:05 utc | 75

Posted by: Mark2 | Apr 10 2020 21:21 utc | 71

mark2: "You appear to be trying to devide the opposition to the elite !
Just as they did successfully with the Labour Party !"

Opposition is already divided. I am calling out to the 'surrender all rights camp' to pause and reflect.

---

mark2: "Your list I agree with, all true ! So I find it both strange and suspect that you therefore flatly refuse to consider that this virus is a USA/U.K. germ warfare originating from a lab. It has been pointed out ‘who gains’
Your blind denial needs further hard evedence !"

Strawman. I have not made any statements regarding that.

---

mark2: "Your personal disclosure is welcome. If true seems rather selfish, Typhoid Mary esq."

Wrong again. I have not said anything about my behavior. For complete disclosure, of course, based on the fact that I do NOT have full information, I see no loss to my liberties by wearing masks and disposable gloves, and maintaining basic protocl for moving item in and out of my "shelter". Seems quite sensible.

---

mark2: "I remind you the key disagreement you have seems to be miss-understanding that medically the correct defence to a epidemic/ pandemic is isolating the source and isolating from the source!"

I remind you that the first step then is to identify the "source". I further remind you that pandemic response models are ultimately functions. Garbage in - garbage out.

The issue is the data input. Massive random testing would establish a reliable 'infection rate'. For exmaple, the statement "20% of infected require hospitalization" is meaningless if we acutally don't have a clue to what is the true extent of infection in the country.

--

mark2: "Politicaly I agree this is defiantly being exploited.
My stance is ——— fight the virus medically but fight the elite by exposing them. You appear to want to disregard this virus source!!"

I have addressed all of your ad-homs and misunderstandings, above.

mark2: "Suspect !
Off-Gardian has done tremendous work in the past, it’s followers are good people.
But are wrong minded on this! It’s a bio weapon."

Offguardian continues to do tremendous work, imho.

Posted by: concerned | Apr 10 2020 22:08 utc | 76

CCD DSU for April 10, 2020

New York has hit the 4 handle on nCOV mortality per 10M population: 4034. Compare with Italy at 3100 and Spain at 3443.

Other Western European nations continue to ascend the scale: Belgium at 2648, France at 2026, Netherlands at 1477, UK at 1368.

Germany at 320, US at 558. US without New York state is 338, but New Jersey and Connecticut are also rapidly ascending, while Lousiana is actually the worst outside of New York.

New York now has more cases than any other nation or provincial/state entity except the US overall.

Posted by: c1ue | Apr 10 2020 22:09 utc | 77

Posted by: Laguerre | Apr 10 2020 21:31 utc | 72

"apparently of Hong Kong origin"

Rubbish! it's used in almost all SEA countries in many manner. There is Pasar malam or night market usually on week days in the evening and they too sell fishes, dry foods, cooked foods, watches almost anything under the sun in the middle of roads or sidewalks.

Posted by: JC | Apr 10 2020 22:11 utc | 78

I suspected recent Singapore Covid-19 on the raise. Suddenly came to realized Singapore hosting US of A littoral vessels in Sembawang navy base. US deploy two littoral combat vessels in Singapore.

Unless the Singapore's dictator or regime kick the US of A out she will pay dearly for it.

"The United States will deploy two littoral combat ships to Singapore later this year, a top US military commander said yesterday, citing the move as a positive sign of its commitment to the region amid increasing Chinese military activity in the South China Sea."

Posted by: JC | Apr 10 2020 22:25 utc | 79

@ 0ccupatio #16 & #19,

Interesting comment. Also you may be interested to know army worms have recently been found in both Australia and New Zealand. African swine fever is now at Australia's doorstep in Papua New Guinea and Indonesia. How the army worm managed to get into New Zealand is a mystery to me because they are reputed to fly up to two hundred kilometres which is further than the nearest land. Australia and New Zealand both have very efficient and strict border controls for any bio hazards.
https://www.kiwicare.co.nz/problem/armyworm/ https:/

https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/413832/african-swine-fever-a-threat-to-pacific-way-of-life

https://www.northqueenslandregister.com.au/story/6715906/covid-19-creates-african-swine-fever-response-challenges/

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-18/researcher-warning-as-fall-armyworm-detected-australian-mainland/11975908

These problems come on top of a long drought in Australia followed by bushfires and then floods. There is also drought in some regions of New Zealand, which normally has reliable rainfall.
New Zealand leads the world in governance of the covid19 crisis as demonstrated by the figure of only one death so far.

I think the world needs a new social contract between the governments and the people based on real and deserved mutual respect, real rule of law and that includes international law and, naturally, that includes strict adherence to the Geneva conventions. That means goodbye neo-liberalism, arrogant regime change wars, Kissinger, trade wars, boycotts, big Pharma and of course the biggest problem of them all, the Bandit State of Israel and all the grotesque and ugly evil that goes with it, good riddance.

Posted by: Paul | Apr 10 2020 22:33 utc | 80

Concerned @ 78
Off Gardian dose good work ! You say !
So why have you learned nothing ! From the distruction of the Labour Party ! Quit the infighting we here are not your enemy.
Unless of course your bellingcat, Atlantic council or the Israeli lobby group ?
I’m done here. Good night and stay safe.

Posted by: Mark2 | Apr 10 2020 22:36 utc | 81

There is a big difference between discovered and emerged!

If a new virus strain is discovered in a bio lab it does not mean that it emerged there.
When Montagnier discovered the HIVirus it means not that it emerged in France. He send samples to hes colleague Gallo. Afterwards was a patent right fight on highest level involving Reagan and Mitterrand making a 50 / 50 deal.

But Gallo started to TEST the "mysterious" gay deads in N.Y. and San Francisco..many where HIV positive. But if he would instead made tests in old peoples home or in hospitals where old people already fighting with the death many would have been positive too. This Virus spread theory does not make any sense!

So now "they" find covid-19 positive tested people all over the world. It only depends where the tests are going. There is only a spread of the Tests!
The symptoms like breathlessness and SARS are not caused by a virus but by a SHOCKING TEST RESULT! The Test works like a negative placebo.

To treat old people like a contaminated chicken and throw them into mass graves without a respectul funreal shows only how deep humanity failed!

Posted by: Hempus | Apr 10 2020 22:40 utc | 82

LA doctor seeing success with hydroxychloroquine to treat COVID-19

The doctor says the zinc opens a channel in the cell letting in the hydroxychloroquine. He claims to have treated numerous patients very ill with results in 8 to 12 hours.

Posted by: dltravers | Apr 10 2020 22:41 utc | 83

==> William Gruff @ 3 ==> Wet Markets

We Left Shenzhen just hours before it shutdown

I did a grid survey of our 50 Block hi-rise by walking around the apartments .
All had shops at the ground level - around 20 per building,
and over a third of them (several hundred) were eateries.
They require a hi-turnover and low-markup just for survival .
They were in part supplied by open air markets,
where meat is laid out on unrefrigerated
wooden blocks to be cut on demand throughout the day.

Yes, the live fish are fresh - from swimming ( in distinctly unhygienic water )
into plastic bags within 5 minutes;
The Chopping block given a quick wipe before reuse..

Hmm.. I thought this is pandemic central...

Chances of a different approach once the shutdown finishes..not great

Posted by: David K | Apr 10 2020 22:42 utc | 84

Btw I live in New York. The nearest hospital is 10 minutes walking distance. I pass by it on my shopping trip every other day. Per NYTimes, I live in one of the higher risk neighborhoods.

New York Times could easily place a front page appeal to New Yorks to "if you live across from a hospital and have webcams, please send your feed to our servers. We will host a live page showing video feeds from all area hospitals. As you know, bodies are piling up an we have to set up tents in Central Park, but due to fake news, some are suggesting that this crisis is a media operation. Having your feeds will help quash these false memes. Sincerely, the truth loving editorial borad of the paper of record".

Posted by: concerned | Apr 10 2020 22:42 utc | 85

"Mass Burials On Hart Island Increase Fivefold As COVID-19 Death Toll Skyrockets:"

Looking at the pictures, there seem to be about 4 bodies per metre of trench length.

Here are historic trench length estimates:

2003 35m
2004 45m
2008 52m
2009 69m
2010 72m
2011 42m
2012 96m
2014 144m
2016 86m
2020 105m (to April 2020)

Most years seem to have one trench about every 6 months. 2014 had 3 trenches, one in April and 2 in October. What happened in 2014?

Posted by: Ken Garoo | Apr 10 2020 22:57 utc | 86

Rubbish! it's used in almost all SEA countries in many manner. There is Pasar malam or night market usually on week days

Posted by: JC | Apr 10 2020 22:11 utc | 81

The name, JC, the name "wet market" is what is said to come from Hong Kong. You yourself demonstrate that it called night market elsewhere.

Posted by: Laguerre | Apr 10 2020 22:58 utc | 87

It is also important to recognize the fact that powerful intersets, and organizations have been looking into pandemics and subsequent societal implications for decades. They are minimally prepared, maximally "on track".

We, the people, on the other hand, have never had the time to collectively consider this subject and outline OUR optimal responses. Clearly we have been caught flatfooted. The divisions in the non-establishment voices reflects this and this lack of preparedness is being exploited.

And now, in this brief interlude before the curtain rises on the "new order", when we are actually considering the situtation, we are being strongly discouraged from questioning the line propagated by these same powerful interests and organizations. "Don't be Typhoon Mary! Bodies are piling up!!".

(Don't forget that Manifesto ..)

Posted by: concerned | Apr 10 2020 23:01 utc | 88

Diane Johnstone gets it right:
"...Today, quite a number of alternative media commentators are ready to believe in the absolute power not of God but of Mammon, of the powers of Wall Street and its partners in politics, the media and the military. In this view, nothing major happens that hasn’t been planned by earthly powers for their own selfish interest.

"Mammon is wrecking the economy so a few oligarchs will own everything. Or else Mammon created the hoax Coronavirus 19 in order to lock us all up and deprive us of what little is left of our freedom. Or finally Mammon is using a virus in order to have a pretext to vaccinate us all with secret substances and turn us all into zombies.

"Is this credible? In one sense, it is. We know that Mammon is unscrupulous, morally capable of all crimes. But things do happen that Mammon did not plan, such as earthquakes, floods and plagues. Dislike of our ruling class combined with dislike of being locked up leads to the equation: They are simply using this (fake) crisis in order to lock us up!

"But what for? To whom is there any advantage in locking down the population? For the pleasure of telling themselves, “Aha, we’ve got them where we want them, all stuck at home!” Is this intended to suppress popular revolt? What popular revolt? Why repress people who aren’t doing anything that needs to be repressed?...
"What is the use of locking up a population – and I think especially of the United States – that is disunited, disorganized, profoundly confused by generations of ideological indoctrination telling them that their country is “the best” in every way, and thus unable to formulate coherent demands on a system that exploits them ruthlessly? Do you need to lock up your faithful Labrador so he won’t bite you?...
"....Mammon is blinded by its own hubris, often stupid, incompetent, dumbed down by getting away with so much so easily. Take a look at Mike Pompeo or Mike Pence – are these all-powerful geniuses? No, they are semi-morons who have been able to crawl up a corrupt system contemptuous of truth, virtue or intelligence – like the rest of the gangsters in power in a system devoid of any ethical or intellectual standards.

"The power of creatures like that is merely the reflection of the abdication of social responsibility by whole populations whose disinterest in politics has allowed the scum to rise to the top.

The lockdown decreed by our Western governments reveals helplessness rather than power. They did not rush to lock us down. The lockdown is disastrous for the economy which is their prime concern. They hesitated and did so only when they had to do something and were ill-equipped to do anything else. They saw that China had done so with good results. But smart Asian governments did even more, deploying masks, tests and treatments Western governments did not possess..."

https://consortiumnews.com/2020/04/10/covid-19-coronavirus-and-civilization/

Posted by: bevin | Apr 10 2020 23:06 utc | 89

So China said covid-19 is caused by COV-SARS-2 virus and releases genome sequences on January 11. Based on those sequences vaccine makers in West begin work immediately on vaccines as China had not provided samples. In China We Trust is their motto.

Meanwhile China had almost no significant cases outside hubei despite the virus circulation for over 2 months in what is a major domestic and international transportation hub. 90% of its cases in a province that makes up 5% of its population.

So has anyone in the West actually sought to try and find and isolate and putify any other virus that might be causing COVID -19? A variant of SARS was pretty easy to find since that was on everyones radar, including the US which collaborated with China on gain of function studies, but a truly novel virus is pretty hard to find an isolate. However, if you claim the science is settled and never look for anything else you never find it (as in AIDS after HIV which was never isolated and purified, or CFS after Judy Mikovits got crushed for finding gamma viruses from mice in most CFS victims).

Now say you have developed a biological weapon meant to disrupt your enemies economy (and maybe a global reset of the worlds financial system in collaboration with western elites) .Would you claim an outbreak in your own backyard and take drastic measures to contain it after releasing the virus sequences to the rest of the world so they can develop tests and vaccines against a virus thats not the principal cause of the disease. Releasing deep fake videos and tweets that somehow manage to breach Chinas internet firewall for authenticity.

Meanwhile, you infect passengers leaving China for the US and Europe but not your BRICS partners with another virus who go on to infect those populations, taking care to screen anyone coming in from those countries with tests that can detect virus X. In other words - Coronavirus as a trojan horse

As the west seeks to contain the corona virus using tests based on Chinese sequences, being completely oblivious to the possibility of another virus, a solution will be elusive

Meanwhile in China, using the new vaccine law passed in December, they begin vaccinating their people (elderly and those with low social credit scores excepted) with a vaccine for virus X

Curiously China also reported a human case of hantavirus at the end of March in Yunan province and tested everyone who was on the same bus. Hantavirus is not known yo be transmitted among people but then the US military began working with Wuhan Institute of Virology starting from the 1980’s on hantaviruses so you can be sure gain of function studied with hantavirus have been conducted. After all, something needs to replace coronavirus and Virus X for future pandemics.

I am also intrigued about BcG vaccine supposedly offering immunity to Covid 19 (coronavirus + virus X )although how to explain China and France as both had mandatory vaccinations starting from 1950. France stopped in 2007, and China supposedly had an interruption from 1966-1976, but most most of the now elderly were vaccinated and they are the hardest hit by COVID-19 (although in Chinas case thats not a given) .I couldn't find anything on Italy except they never had mandatory BCG vaccinations but it seems that the war on Tuberculosis that started after the war and led by WHO/UNICEF in Europe would have led many Italians to vaccinate their children voluntarily.

Curiously in the US whose medical tyrants have never met a vaccine it didn't like they didn't want anything to do with the French vaccine from the start. Maybe thats because the BCG vaccine enhances the immune system and causes it to be more effective in preventing or minimizing other childhood diseases , thus reducing demand for new disease specific vaccines , many of which unlike BCG require harmful aluminum adjuvants.

There are now other BCG makers, not all of them as beneficial nor effective as the original strains

I ran across this which may explain the BCG push. “UN Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) 2016-2030 include 17 development goals. Goal 3 is about “good health and well-being” and has 13 targets, of which target 3.3 is to “End the epidemic of AIDS, TB, malaria & neglected tropical diseases and combat hepatitis, water-borne and other communicable diseases. In this new era, the response to TB is moving from halting TB to ending TB by 2030. In May 2014, during the 67th World Health Assembly, the WHO Member States adopted the End TB Strategy 2016-2035. The vision of the End TB Strategy 2016-2035 is “A World Free of TB: zero TB deaths, zero TB disease, and, Zero TB suffering”. The goal is to end the global TB epidemic.”

So since COVID-19 vaccines are not yet a reality, why not start with mandatory BCG vaccinations and kill 2 birds with one stone. You can bet a newer (patentable) BCG vaccine will shortly be rolled out to replace older and beneficial BCG vaccines (wars of this kind must not be won).

Posted by: Pft | Apr 10 2020 23:27 utc | 90

Posted by: bevin | Apr 10 2020 23:06 utc | 92

"What is the use of locking up a population – and I think especially of the United States – that is disunited, disorganized, profoundly confused by generations [of people like Diane Johnstone]".

First assumption here is that the citizenry would forever remain that way. What Diane ignores here is the probability of the masses finally getting a clue.

Simply based on massive demonstrations world wide last year, I would think the ruling classes consider that probability to be getting higher with every passing day.

The second error Diane and her ilk make here is the strawman assertion that the 'end goal' is "shelter in place" forever and ever.

This is a transitional phase, Diane. It is a necessary step in the structural changes taking place as we speak. This phase of the operations insures destitution and total reliance on state. Subsequent to this phase, 'reasonable' peons can look forward to reintegration into the new order.

Does that clarify it for you, Diane?

Posted by: concerned | Apr 10 2020 23:32 utc | 91

I remember a couple of years ago reading Orlov's wishful hypothesis regarding the American collapse. I'm sure the barflies know the blog post I refer to here.

In that piece, Mr. Orlov pointed out various social features of Russia that proved helpful in the rebound from the collapse of USSR and subsequent raping of Russia by the Cabal. He then went on to theorize how the features of USA's society bode ill for this nation in a similar situation.

The reason I mention this is that when reading that piece, it was noted that Mr. Orlov completely ignored existing Executive Orders designed precisely to address such issues. I don't recall the specific EO here, but I know there is one, for example, that authorizes effectively forced labor of specialists in "essential" sectors, up to, if I recall correctly, authorizing collecting and housing these workers.

The only question in my mind was what would the transitional phase look like.

Posted by: concerned | Apr 10 2020 23:47 utc | 92

Bevin@92

“But what for? To whom is there any advantage in locking down the population? For the pleasure of telling themselves, “Aha, we’ve got them where we want them, all stuck at home!” Is this intended to suppress popular revolt? What popular revolt? Why repress people who aren’t doing anything that needs to be repressed?...”

Yes, terrorism has always been an effective tool for changing the social order. For over 100 years a faction of the elite has been orchestrating terror in order to effect change so as to create
Global order as elaborated by Plato and ruled by Philosopher kings (scientific technocratic elite). They are getting close.

The lockdown is just a component of the bioterrorism to add financial terror to effect this change, as climate terror wasn’t working on everyone

Of course, while change may bring medicare for all and universal income, it will come at a drastic cost to freedom. Travel will be controlled as will immigration (including legal), digital ID to ascertain health and vaccination status, mandatory vaccinations (they are unavoidably unsafe according to the supreme court), and severe censorship (not to mention regional and country firewalls like China to prevent free flow of ideas among the little people).

And that green economy will be brought forth as well, resulting in energy deprivation and reduced living standards, all monitored and controlled with smart meters and smart grigs using 5G and IoT. Digital currency will end paper money allowing people to be controlled by suspending credit to those with low social credit scores for thinking the wrong thoughts. Constant surveillance 24/7, cameras, drones, smart phones/TV’s will all be used. No privacy rights.

The right gets an end to illegal immigrants who are no longer needed due to robotics and AI and closing of most restaurants (people wont be able to afford to eat out). Taxes will be cut significantly because they never were needed in the first place. Governments can and will create their own money. The right will love no taxes . Big business will all be compensated for loss of business with helicopter money.
Socialism for business has always been approved by the New Right (much different animal than old conservatives, most of their leaders were old Trotskyites).

Travel and tourism will take big cuts for the same reason. Social distancing regulations will mean all aircraft seating will be first class . If you are not rich you stay home.

As for the military. They still will have a job. Fake wrestling with Russia, China and Iran will keep the good times going. A few countries here and there to practice on. Most of the deployment will be to control the local populations once they find out how they got played. Resistance will be crushed quickly though

A synthesis of 1984 and the Brave New World is almost here. Next steps will be reproductive management and culling the herd.. Rationed health care and lower standard of living will drop life expectancy rapidly, and vaccine side effects and vaccine overload will contribute to that.

You need to think big and think long because thats what the global elite do.
Most of us little people can’t comprehend this, much like my dog cant figure out why I keep hitting my phone with my finger as I type this. Not sure I know either since my finger is getting sore.

Posted by: Pft | Apr 10 2020 23:47 utc | 93

Mark2 #15

You cite wikipedia as any form of reliable source??? LMFAO 🤣

Air borne virus such as this is going to spread through the whole population over time sooner or later. We imagine it can be suppressed with our science but it will be here for some time. Vaccine may address this current version but as it is infecting so many it will likely mutate beyond the first vaccine BEFORE it is produced and ditto the second and third vaccine iteration. Same as the annual flu does.

According to the USA military germ warfare complex they were gathering international teams over years since SARS to develop vaccines.

Well we got the virus and

There is no vaccine

How totally incompetent.

Maybe the USA military germ warfare complex was using wikipedia as its reference source.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 11 2020 0:02 utc | 94

Hail Mary pass. The ruling circles in the U.S. knew they were doomed to be superseded by China unless something happened to prevent it. Being superseded was unacceptable to them, and they had no better plan, so they decided to do something that would at least shake things up.

Posted by: lysias | Apr 11 2020 0:13 utc | 95

uncle tungsten @ 97
To hell with wikipedia ! Typhoid Mary real name Molly Mallone is an undisputed fact of history / reality !
The point is people died becouse of ignorance and selfish disregard for others.
As we both know wiki is crap but has its use.
You surely would of here’d the song ‘sweet Molly Mallone ?
Now have a good night and lockdown.

Posted by: Mark2 | Apr 11 2020 0:32 utc | 96

JC #58

ebay and amazon !! Try Aliexpress here:

Why buy USA oligarchs and support their war machine? F#ck them.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 11 2020 0:41 utc | 97

@72 "Nah, it's not that extensive. There's no great point in eating exotic wild animals, other than to show off that you can afford to do so. It's exhibition of wealth, and therefore not that big a market."

Depends on how you define extensive I guess. Every city in China has expensive restaurants that specialize in exotic menu items. There are plenty of wealthy people in China and they love to show off. (Racism alert)

Posted by: dh | Apr 11 2020 1:00 utc | 98

Mark2 #99

To hell with wikipedia ! Typhoid Mary real name Molly Mallone is an undisputed fact of history / reality !
The point is people died becouse of ignorance and selfish disregard for others.
As we both know wiki is crap but has its use.
You surely would of here’d the song ‘sweet Molly Mallone ?
Now have a good night and lockdown.

Molly Mallone isn't only wikipedia she is mentioned in other far more credible sources.

Its about wiki GOT IT!
That totally controlled reference system that just prints one 'controlling' side of the story.

Stop promoting wiki and goo... and ama... take a minute and use anywhere other than them. ERASE from our lexicon.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 11 2020 1:16 utc | 99

Another doctor comes forward...
FROM NYC ICU: DOES COVID-19 REALLY CAUSE ARDS??!!

I thought it might be some guy making a fake video but I guess not...
Ventilator settings wrong

Posted by: dltravers | Apr 11 2020 1:18 utc | 100