Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 31, 2020

U.S. Virus Cases Are Off The Scale - But Its People Can Build A Movement From This

The latest Financial Times graphic for covid-19 cases per country shows that the U.S. case numbers are now literally off the scale.


Source - bigger

When John Burn-Murdoch created that daily updated chart he did not anticipate that any country would have more than a 100,000 total cases. That was a reasonable assumption as China, with 1.4 billion inhabitants, stopped the epidemic with less than 85.000 total cases even when it was surprised by the outbreak.

As of now the U.S. has 164.435 known cases. It will reach a total number of several dozens of millions and will have several hundreds of thousands of dead caused by the covid-19 disease.

Most but not all of those who will die from it will have one or more co-morbid diseases. The number of death in the U.S. will likely be higher than elsewhere because obesity, diabetes and heart problems are more prevalent in the U.S. than in most other countries.

Another reason why the U.S. will have a larger than necessary outbreak is wide mistrust in the authority of the state. A significant number of people will reject stay at home orders or other measures the authorities will have to take.

Then there is this:

Pouya Alimagham پويا عالي مقام @iPouya - 0:48 UTC · Mar 31, 2020

The regime doesn’t want to antagonize the religious classes. Thus, it isn’t doing anything about the fact that some religious sites remain open & clerics are encouraging worshippers to come & pray. These gatherings risk exploding #COVID19.

I’m talking about the US, not #Iran.

The U.S. also has many people without health insurance. The many newly laid off people will additionally lose theirs. These people will avoid seeing a doctor or to go to a hospital as the enormous costs would ruin them. The for-profit health system will reject sick persons who are unlikely to be able to pay their bills. The cases of people who die from such circumstance should be put into the death by lack of money category instead of being blamed on something else.

Congress has failed to take the necessary measures and to give everyone access to free tests and free care. This will come back to bite everyone as it makes sure that the disease will circulate longer and stronger than in other rich countries. Even the rich, who will gain most of the money Congress passed out, will be affected by this.


bigger

The reasons that the U.S. will have very high numbers are obvious and they have nothing to do with China.

When the SARS virus broke out the world united in defeating it. It did that by isolating all cases and by aggressively tracing anyone who had come into contact with them. The fight was successful. The SARS virus no longer exists outside of high security laboratories.

But when the SARS-CoV-2 evolved there was no united response. China did its very best to defeat the virus. It won the fight against the virus within its country but other states did not join in the effort to eradicate it. SARS-CoV-2 is more infective than SARS and we will never know if an eradication attempt could have been successful. There is no glory in prevention. But it is sad that we did not even try.

The Center of Disease Control botched its creation of a test for the SARS-CoV-2 virus that causes the disease. The German designed test model the World Health Organization recommended was rejected by the CDC. It wanted to do its own test and failed. U.S. testing started too late and it then tested too few to get a grip on the size of the emerging epidemic.

U.S. President Donald Trump did not believe that the virus would be a problem. U.S. media likewise played down the danger. Most of its reporting from China had a racist undertone. The nativist freakout only helps to hide the real origin of the crisis. Other conservative leaders in other countries, Jair Bolsonaro in Brazil, Boris Johnson in the UK, Alexander Lukashenko in Belarus and others, similarly ignored the predictable consequences of outbreaks in their countries.

It is now guaranteed that the virus will stay with humanity until someone finds a vaccine that is effective, safe to use and cheap. The task now is to reduce the speed of new infections so we do not overwhelm our healthcare systems.

A lot has been learned about the virus and how it behaves. SARS-CoV-2 is three to four times more infectious than the flu. The virus is transmitted by droplets which are then inhaled by other people. It then attacks cells in the upper throat and starts to replicate there. Two days later the infected person is infectious. Each time s/he speaks, coughs or sneezes s/he will release fine droplets which carry a high load of viruses. Symptoms, which only 75% of all infected persons will feel, usually start on day 5 or 6 after the infection. The main symptoms are a dry cough and general weakness. In some patents the symptoms may look like a heart attack. A person stays infectious until day 8 to 10.

The virus can be detected after it started to replicate. A swab test is taken (it feels like it looks) and processed. If the result is positive the person must be quarantined to protect others.


bigger

The way the disease develops is the reason for my repeated urging to wear a masks. You have no real way to know if you already carry and spread the disease. The mask may not help to prevent you from getting infected but it can definitely help to prevent you from infecting others. Wear a mask out of courtesy towards the people around you.

In many Asian countries wearing a mask is a social rule that everyone follows. These countries, light blue in the above chart, had way less ravaging covid-19 epidemics than 'western' societies where wearing a mask is seen as suspicious or as a sign of weakness. This attitude will now surely have to change.

After replicating in the throat for a few days the virus migrates from the throat into the lower lungs where it replicates more rapidly and begins to create real havoc. The immune system of most healthy people will defeat the virus after some 10 to 18 days. But the fight is often difficult. Some of the symptoms during that phase are not from the virus but from the way our immune system reacts to it.

It destroys the many cells that are infected by the virus and thereby rips holes into the lung tissue. The body then starts an inflammatory response to repair the destroyed cells. The whole process can cause pneumonia. Artificial breathing support will then be needed for people who have already other conditions that cause breathing or circulation problems. Some patients may also develop heart problems. If their lungs become unable to provide enough oxygen to the circulating blood the person will die.

Survivors of covid-19 will have developed immunity for at least a year. While the SARS-CoV-2 virus has developed into several strains it has not mutated into a different form as some common flu viruses often do. That increases the likelihood that a once acquired immunity will continue to protect against a reinfection.

Every crisis is also a chance. Congress has used it to again loot the people and to push more money to the rich. At the same time the powers that be have denied universal healthcare and paid sick leave to those who need it. The covid-19 epidemic is a chance to change that.

There are already a number of strikes at Amazon and similar companies over work safety, health care and pay. Rent strikes must now follow. When the bills come in for families with covid-19 cases many more people will get more interested in medicare for all. A movement can be build from these issues. The Sanders campaign should provide a (virtual) platform for it.

The U.S. has enough money to pay for the security of its people. Security is not a military issue. A hugely expensive aircraft carrier with sick sailors is worth nothing. Pandemics are a real security issues and the U.S. has left its people defenseless against them. Cut the aircraft carriers and other insane military spending and invest it in the health of the people.

That message will soon be widely understood. We can all help to reinforce it.

---
Previous Moon of Alabama posts on the issue:

Posted by b on March 31, 2020 at 17:48 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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thanks b... the capitalists and 'conservative types' are not going to like your message.. i agree with you here-> "Cut the aircraft carriers and other insane military spending and invest it into the health of the people." i look forward to reading the yasha levine article and other links you've shared.. the issue of the masks is also in an article today from cbc - here..

and on a lighter note , some guy klucevsek accordion music for anyone interested...here..

Posted by: james | Mar 31 2020 18:05 utc | 1

when many authorities are politicians, how much trust is deserved?

Posted by: Twinker | Mar 31 2020 18:05 utc | 2

The first thing they do is sacrifice all our money to the bankers to appease the money gods. Then they sacrifice the little children. Do they really care about us? Har har har har har!!!

Posted by: blues | Mar 31 2020 18:09 utc | 3

How realistic is “universal health care” in a population that has little incentive, education or sense of personal responsibility to take care of their own health? Obesity, diabetes, etc. The law says Emergency rooms cannot turn ANYONE away.

Posted by: Twinker | Mar 31 2020 18:13 utc | 4

Where is psychohistorian?

Posted by: Lozion | Mar 31 2020 18:14 utc | 5

Well it deserves to be noted at this point that Corona will have a disabling effect on the US military for some undefined period into the future, we already have an aircraft carrier captain begging to get his crew off the ship. There will be more.

Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 31 2020 18:21 utc | 6

Re: your comment, b, that until a vaccine is "available, cheap, and safe..."

Does anyone here honestly believe that they will NOT "fast-track" the vaccine, meaning leapfrogging the appropriate double-blind placebo tests that all modern drugs have to engage in to receive approval for the FDA?

Salk, the creator of the Polio vaccine, famously stated that safety tests for the vaccine are irrelevant when you are preventing something like polio. Well, my friends, this statement is frought with peril and indeed begs the question.

Just last night, my poor father was in tears on the phone with me asking if our daughter had received her normal vaccinations, which she has not. My father is indeed a victim of fear and easy prey for those seeking power in the coming vast overreach that will take place. Mandating all vaccines, even though the majority do not matter one iota when it comes to infringing on the rights of others, is going to be a new reality for us dirty antivaxxers.

Will the SARS-covid-19 vaccine induce more fine-mist virulent aerosol in those who receive the vaccine, than those who do not, as is the case with the seasonal flu vaccine? (source)

I am sorry, but we are in for a long, long fight with this ordeal. We will not know who is our friend, who is our enemy, and in whom you should place your trust.

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Mar 31 2020 18:21 utc | 7

Another clear-eyed analysis, b.
Although you do mention the swamping of health care systems as a factor, in the (im)perfect storm of conditions that you describe in the US, this might well mean a high likelihood of death or serious debilitation for 10 if not 20% of the exposed population, as well as death for any other medical condition that would have required hospitalization, and particularly ventilation.

A plausible worst case of 80% of total US population exposed in the next year might see ~20% needing hospitalization. If death not guaranteed, but, say, a 50% CFR, we might be talking about tens of millions of deaths. It's hard to imagine maintaining order in a system that corrupted and inequitable. So to this we might add riots in prisons and on bread lines, strikes and riots in low-wage / high risk essential services, breakdowns in food and bottled water distribution, extensive vandalism of hospital facilities denied to the poor and afflicted...

Posted by: Paul Damascene | Mar 31 2020 18:24 utc | 8

It's simple, really.

The more that Americans/Westerners are adversely affected, the easier it is for TPTB to whip-up hatred toward China.

#TrumpWinning.

The Empire games every CRISIS! Even the one's they haven't created themselves.

FYI: Coronavirus Response Failure: Additional Evidence

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 31 2020 18:31 utc | 9

As I said earlier, stupid move by Putin to visit the Corona hospital earlier
because now the head of Russian coronavirus hospital visited by Putin tests positive for Covid-19
https://on.rt.com/adwn

Posted by: Zanon | Mar 31 2020 18:31 utc | 10

>Rent strikes

I am thinking that they could quickly and easily evolve into a new movement. The model of organizing people at their workplace is dead, as it has been for a long time now. People are now isolated from everyone except their immediate neighbors. If their neighbors all have the same landlord, well, that makes for an obvious target, especially as few can afford rent even in the best of times, which are now in the rear view mirror.

This morning CBC Radio interviewed some rent strikers in Toronto. The landlords have already announced they expect payment before midnight tonight; if renters need help, they are supposed to beg for crumbs from the politicians. Promises from the politicians are vague while wallets are still empty. So the Rent Strike fight is on, and starts tomorrow.

During the First Great Depression the Sheriff would come and toss out a family and their belongings, but as soon as the Sheriff left, neighbors would unlock the place and move all the stuff back in. When millions of home loan owners were tossed out a dozen years ago, there was little resistance and the newly homeless were on their own. This time might be different.

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Mar 31 2020 18:34 utc | 11

What a total collapse for the US:

Plane With Russian Medical Equipment May Be Sent to US by Day-End

"Today, technical coordination was conducted, and preparations were underway to send an aircraft from Russia [to the US], which is expected to leave by the end of the day," Peskov said, adding that Russian President Vladimir Putin and his US counterpart, Donald Trump, discussed this assistance during their phone conversation on Monday.

Posted by: Norwegian | Mar 31 2020 18:34 utc | 12

>The law says Emergency rooms cannot turn ANYONE away.

Only if they are dying. Once the ER doc decides the patient is "stable", they get kicked out. Doesn't even matter if the patient can not take care of themselves. For most people there is no treatment offered anyway, except, "Take two aspirin and (don't) call me in the morning".

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Mar 31 2020 18:38 utc | 13

Highest comorbidity is hypertension AKA high blood pressure, 77.9 million US adults have it. Obesity is another which is 70 million US adults. I really, really hope they get a handle on this quickly, it's not just about deaths, it's about the social and political stability of a country with the 2nd highest number of nuclear warheads in the world.

Posted by: TJ | Mar 31 2020 18:41 utc | 14

American exceptionalism finally coming home to roost.

Posted by: A meme | Mar 31 2020 18:42 utc | 15

I would not assume that a first generation vaccine will be safe. But a second generation could be.

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Mar 31 2020 18:46 utc | 16

I'm a long-time reader, originally due to your excellent Syria coverage. I appreciate your careful takes on the virus. I host a SARS-COV-2 dashboard for friends who lost jobs and friends in New York and Chicago in healthcare and relief efforts. I hope something in it is new to you, and helpful for your coverage. Thank you for your hard work!

Posted by: boots | Mar 31 2020 18:47 utc | 17

Lozion @5--

He'd thank you for your interest. He recently bought a house and is in the process of modifying it for his purposes. He did make a brief comment yesterday. Yes, he and I are both in the high risk category. He lives alone and ought to get through okay. I asked my stepson if he'd ever conjured up a spit with the wind behind him and let it fly to see how far it went, and being male of course he said yes. I then told him the virus could travel that far and perhaps further to impress upon him that the 6 feet of "social distancing" isn't nearly enough.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 31 2020 18:50 utc | 18

@7 Nemesiscalling

We do not know yet that a vaccine is even possible. Right now we have 2 data points that say it won't, the 1st is that the virus is SARS-CoV-2 which is related to SARS-CoV-1 which caused SARS. A vaccine against the original SARS-CoV-1 virus was developed but in the animal trials the animals would have a cytokine storm immune overreaction when re-exposed to the virus. 2nd we have had statements from doctors saying that recovering from the disease does not confer immunity indicating a vaccine wouldn't either. That isn't to say a vaccine is impossible, just that right now the data is pointing that way.

Posted by: TJ | Mar 31 2020 18:51 utc | 19

@ b "It is now guaranteed that the virus will stay with humanity until someone finds a vaccine that is effective, safe to use and cheap. The task now is to reduce the speed of new infections so we do not overwhelm our healthcare systems."

does that mean we stay quarantined for the next 18 months, with a devastated health care system until a vaccine is tested. Until then we will receive a universal income from broken governments.

Next question How many strains are out there?

Take this Pompeo with your sanctions: The generosity of the Russians perhaps at the request of Trump during that phone call. Yes indeed.

Is D.C. embarrassed? Plane With Russian Medical Equipment May Be Sent to US by Day-End to Assist COVID-19 Fight - Kremlin


MOSCOW (Sputnik) - A Russian aircraft with medical equipment and protective equipment may fly to the United States before the end of the day to provide assistance to the country amid the coronavirus pandemic, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said on Tuesday.

"Today, technical coordination was conducted, and preparations were underway to send an aircraft from Russia [to the US], which is expected to leave by the end of the day," Peskov said, adding that Russian President Vladimir Putin and his US counterpart, Donald Trump, discussed this assistance during their phone conversation on Monday.[.]

Roll out the impeachment saga for requesting Russia's help.

Posted by: Likklemore | Mar 31 2020 18:55 utc | 20

@9

Looks like the Empire has a Russian nurse to help!

https://sputniknews.com/us/202003311078779958-plane-with-russian-medical-equipment-may-be-sent-to-us-by-day-end-to-assist-covid-19-fight/

Posted by: Taffyboy | Mar 31 2020 18:56 utc | 21

Just want to correct a few common misunderstandings of US healthcare, as someone who works in the field. COBRA laws ensure you keep coverage from your employer even if you are laid off, at least for 6 months but longer in some cases. It is also not the case that patients are turned away because they can't pay- hospitals are required by law to treat anyone who presents at the emergency department, and from experience I can tell you that payment is not even discussed until the patient is ready to be discharged. Many patients cannot pay and their services are written off as charity, no cost to the patient. For many hospitals these services can approach 10% of their yearly revenue, written off to care for people in need with no financial benefit to themselves.

Universal healthcare may be an improvement or it may not, but these statements are false and shouldn't be used to argue for it. It is a constant frustration for me that the topic has become so politicized, careful analysis has fallen by the wayside and most arguments are just based on platitudes. One thing I love about MoA is that you are not taken in by platitudes, so felt the need to correct these. :) That said, I do agree the government should pay for Covid services. Costs for being untreated largely fall to others because you risk infecting them, so it is a classic case of economic externality.

I agree with the rest of the article. It seems inevitable that the virus is now here to stay. It also seems obvious that masks help, at least a little bit, and we were foolish for telling everyone not to wear them.


Posted by: sabre | Mar 31 2020 18:58 utc | 22

There seems to be a competition on tellin everyone Russia is sending emergency aid to their 'partners' in the US. No wonder, because if that happens the world has changed.

Posted by: Norwegian | Mar 31 2020 19:01 utc | 23

The chart showing how the relief will be distributed is interesting, but it should be pointed out that the aim is to prevent widespread banking and business failures. The crash of 1929 was caused by a withdrawal of liquidity from the banking system, and that crash lasted 10 years in the US, and only ended with the US entry into WW II. Right now this second, we are in a full-blown Great Depression, with the market falling as much as 35% and 30% unemployment. Those are today's stats. If the relief bill brings us back to work and saves the banks, it will be judged a success and fully justified.

In the 30's, Germany and Italy recovered fairly quickly than the US, but the price was totalitarianism and world war. That is the real issue today: Can we end the current Great Depression soon, and can we avoid world war?

Posted by: bob sykes | Mar 31 2020 19:13 utc | 24

@TJ #19
SARS1 vaccine never took off because the disease is simply not very infectious.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 31 2020 19:16 utc | 25

Eight strains of COVID was the front page news I read this morning, but fortunately mutating slowly. With rents and other monthly payments coming due, the social response will be curious provided its actually reported--remember news related to Occupy Wall Street was deliberately blacked out nationwide providing glaring proof the Revolution Won't Be Televised. Shadowstats will also be updating its charts tomorrow, while his Daily Update is available at the link.

"Economists at the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis are warning that if the current rate of U.S. job losses continues, the country's unemployment rate could reach a staggering 32.1% by the end of June as the coronavirus pandemic-induced downturn sparks mass layoffs across the nation."

IMO, that's a huge understating of reality that ignores the already huge real percentage of actual un- and underemployed which was 21.1% at the beginning of February. And Real GDP will continue to shrink at a more rapid pace. Just check Shadowstats current charts that will be updated in a few days. As I noted in my comment comparing the speeches Putin and Trump gave, Trumped his ass off yet again with his rosy depiction of the Outlaw US Empire's economic condition. IMO, real unemployment will be over 50%, while the "efforts" made to help those are between non-existent and meager. We are just now beginning to see strikes and protests--many aimed at Bezos's businesses--while the NYC hospital description I posted yesterday was a scene from Soylent Green.

Welcome to the Wild Times brought to you by TrumpCo and its partner SARS-CoV-2.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 31 2020 19:19 utc | 27

@b
I agree with 99% of what you wrote - I only object to the use of absolute numbers as indications of anything.
The US' rate of nCOV infection is far lower than Italy, Spain, even France and the Netherlands.
Deaths per 10M is actually comparable to Germany: 87 deaths per 10M vs. 97 deaths per 10M in the US. New York's 640 deaths per 10M is offset by the entire rest of the country, admittedly, it is still early.
To put this in perspective: South Korea is at 32 deaths per 10M; Italy at 1,906 and Spain at 1,781.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 31 2020 19:21 utc | 28

"COBRA laws ensure you keep coverage from your employer even if you are laid off..."

This is disinformation, and if deliberate then it is a lie.

COBRA gives the freshly unemployed individual the option to pay to keep the same policy they had when they were employed for up to six months. Considering that most Americans don't have a savings reserve sufficient to cover a single month of insurance, guess which they will choose to spend their dwindling cash on when they become unemployed and the choice is between food and insurance?

COBRA is a joke. We can safely assume that all of the millions that have been laid off over the last couple weeks have no insurance whatsoever.

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 31 2020 19:22 utc | 29

It is interesting point in FT chart, Iran is thrown out from Covid-19 world!
Jealousy?!

Posted by: Arata | Mar 31 2020 19:24 utc | 30

Paul Damascene @ 8

A plausible worst case of 80% of total US population exposed in the next year might see ~20% needing hospitalization. If death not guaranteed, but, say, a 50% CFR, we might be talking about tens of millions of deaths.

Will you stop pulling numbers out of thin air? WTF do you get "50% CFR"?? The worst CFR even the panic mongers post is 10%, and that is qualified by age group and co-morbidities.

After weeks of this hysteria, when will people like you read some data instead of running around with your hair on fire?

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 31 2020 19:31 utc | 31

US covid fatalities now exceed those in China!

It only took about four days for the US to double China's confirmed cases after catching up. I'm betting America's victory lap to double China's fatalities will take a bit less than that.

The rate of new cases and deaths in the US is still increasing, not just the total numbers.

I am starting to think that the doomsayer predictions for the US might be optimistic.

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 31 2020 19:33 utc | 32

> COBRA laws ensure you keep coverage from your employer even
>if you are laid off

The law is worthless - people with no income are expected to pay huge fees for COBRA. When Senator Susan Collins office was asked how can people pay this, the response was, "put it on your credit card".

>and from experience I can tell you that payment is not even
>discussed until the patient is ready to be discharged.

That was not my experience at the UMass Worcester hospital Emergency Room in Sept 2009. After waiting for hours, I was finally assigned to a cubicle. Even before seeing a doctor, the hospital collections agent wanted to know how I was going to pay. I told them I was unable to work and had no money, but they still sent my account to collections. Like millions of other US residents, my illness (now much worse than in 2009) eventually resulted in bankruptcy and civil court proceedings and completely wrecked my life.

The medical industry collection practices have destroyed countless lives, in addition to all the iatrogenic harm caused by misdiagnosis, mistakes, prejudice against stigmatized illnesses, and plain old ignorance. If the Evil Virus wrecks the blood-sucking medical industry, it will be very well deserved.

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Mar 31 2020 19:37 utc | 33

Posted by: sabre | Mar 31 2020 18:58 utc | 22

It is also not the case that patients are turned away because they can't pay- hospitals are required by law to treat anyone who presents at the emergency department, and from experience I can tell you that payment is not even discussed until the patient is ready to be discharged.

Your facility is the exception.Absolutely untrue, patients do get turned away. First question: Do you have insurance? Under Obamacare, it's worth a box of bandaid bought at DollarTree

Universal healthcare may be an improvement or it may not, but these statements are false and shouldn't be used to argue for it

Spokesperson for big insurers? I can attest to the fact USA has the most expensive and the worst healthcare system in the world. Suggest you visit other countries where universal healthcare works fine. Try and take it away from the citizens. Move north.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 31 2020 19:21 utc | 28
The US' rate of nCOV infection is far lower than Italy, Spain, even France and the Netherlands.

check Worldometer.info. Live updates as I write

USA 180,789 cases; Italy 105,792; Spain 94,417; France 52,128; Netherlands 12,595.

Posted by: Likklemore | Mar 31 2020 19:42 utc | 34

Isn’t the “number of confirmed cases” more a measure of the increasing number of tests conducted rather than how many people are really infected - let alone how many will have severe symptoms and how many will require treatment in ICU? This should be especially true for countries where the rate of testing is low (e.g. USA). If I am correct then I fail to understand the value of the chart.

Posted by: Nathan Mulcahy | Mar 31 2020 19:43 utc | 35

@31 -- John Brewster,
John, if you'll read carefully, I meant if 10-20% need hospitalization (and can't get it, due to saturation of hospital capacity), then many of these cases will die without the hospitalization that we've stipulated that they need. If only half die (if you needed ventilation, not clear that anyone survives without it), we have numbers in the tens of millions, particularly if we throw in every other American who needs hospitalization in the next year and can't get it.

Posted by: Paul Damascene | Mar 31 2020 19:44 utc | 36

Great post that sums up the relevant issues pertaining to this mess. The powers that be won’t change until people unite to force that change.

Given that all senators, Sanders included, voted for the massive scam of a “bailout” (i.e. trillion$ of free tax payer money for the richest of the rich) Americans have their work cut out for them.

Posted by: Daniel | Mar 31 2020 19:45 utc | 37

The experience that TT @33 relates above is not the exception, but rather is the rule in the US. Even 20% of Americans with health insurance are hounded by collection agencies over medical bills. 80 million Americans don't answer their phones because most calls are collection agencies trying to collect on medical bills.

Our host is not remotely exaggerating the abysmal state of healthcare in the US.

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 31 2020 19:47 utc | 38

@TJ 26
oh that is somewhat troubling.
If this is true in general for these types of viruses, it would really reduce the options for public policy - i.e. temporary containment until a vaccine is made might be a lot harder than most people think, or even impossible.

Posted by: ptb | Mar 31 2020 19:49 utc | 39

Sabre @22:

"COBRA laws ensure you keep coverage from your employer even if you are laid off, at least for 6 months but longer in some cases."

You could have mentioned that the employer is under no obligation to pay the monthly insurance premiums under COBRA: in many cases these are paid largely or entirely by the individual. Monthly premiums can be as little as several hundred dollars or as much as a few thousand.

Strange you didn't mention that.

Besides, what if your COBRA coverage expires, say, right now?

Posted by: corvo | Mar 31 2020 19:50 utc | 40

General Electric workers, who normally produce jet engines, are protesting for that the company's facilities be dedicated to producing mechanical ventilators for the sick these days. The working class ahead of capital and giving a lesson.

https://twitter.com/iaiestaran/status/1244886689299992578

"GE factory workers say their facilities are sitting idle while the country faces a dire ventilator shortage"

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 31 2020 19:52 utc | 41

Apologies to William Gruff @29 for not having read his comment before making my own.

That much said, and depending on employer, COBRA coverage can last as long as 18 months. (I know; I'm several months into an 18-month COBRA myself.)

Posted by: corvo | Mar 31 2020 19:53 utc | 42

I read news on a 20 years old who was of the first persons to die in the US, and a baby who died too for lack of medical care, which contradicts the testimpony by the representative of insurance companies here on that everybody gets attended.

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 31 2020 19:55 utc | 43

I do not understand why people are still bothering trying to dismiss this covid issue as a hoax. Anyone with just a little math skills can fit a curve to the figures that are being published and see for themselves how ugly things are getting, particularly for America.

But then again, Americans really loved that movie Mad Max and have fantasies of experiencing something like it themselves.

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 31 2020 20:02 utc | 45

@39 ptb

Yes and it could lead to a world where people are always quarantined when traveling to a different country, the global travel and tourism industry would collapse, things would be very different. I really hope not, but so far the data does not support my hope.

Posted by: TJ | Mar 31 2020 20:03 utc | 46

@29 Gruff

I agree with you. COBRA is indeed a joke and those that have used it in the past have done so with careful planning as to allotting the high premium payments well before they have had to use COBRA/

The emergency nature of this event renders COBRA an absolute farcical excuse by employers that those laid off and soon without employer-sponsored healthcare will be fine.

COBRA is mostly used for those changing jobs, retiring, or are temporarily (and regularly) laid off. In all instances, these are usually events known before they are impending.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Mar 31 2020 20:03 utc | 47

Sabre-22

You failed to note the cost of Cobra. An unemployed person must pay both his former employer's premium, the contribution he had been making prior to losing his job plus a two percent fee. For many, that cost is an impossible burden. There is a reason there are hundreds of thousands of medical bankruptcies every year in the US.

The US spends twice as much on health care as a percentage of GDP as the rest of the developed world. Nevertheless, it's health care system ranks 27th internationally. All of the countries that have health care systems that are better and less expensive than the US have strong public health care systems. Health insurance companies are parasitic intermediaries that don't provide health care. They extract wealth from the heal care system.

Posted by: David | Mar 31 2020 20:09 utc | 48

Last year before the outbreak I joked about that Trump should build a wall all around the US, put an iron dome on top of it, and let nobody in or out. Maybe I wasn't so far off...

Posted by: Vato | Mar 31 2020 20:09 utc | 49

C.D.C. Weighs Advising Everyone to Wear a Mask

Posted by: vk | Mar 31 2020 20:13 utc | 50

William Gruff @46:

"I do not understand why people are still bothering trying to dismiss this covid issue as a hoax."

I can. Two reasons:

1. The simple one: One ignores what's too horrible to contemplate.

2. The more complex one: We're still Cro-Mags. We think that we matter in little bitty clans that we assume to be the only world that matters . . . except to the extent that rival clans constitute threats. That's why we believe in such absurdities as buying lottery tickets and the importance of voting (which is, when you think about it, pretty much the same thing). Psychologically, the odds of winning the lottery aren't 146 million to one; they're even (you win, or you lose!). Now you'd think at this point that the Cro-Mag mind will tell us: Your odds of contracting coronavirus are even (you get it, or you don't) -- but the ability to comprehend large numbers psychologically actually plays into the clan instinct: If the horror isn't in the immediate vicinity and visibly so, it isn't there.

Posted by: corvo | Mar 31 2020 20:13 utc | 51

Yesterday we were debating about the true magnitude of the pandemic in the USA. Regardless of its real size, it appears to be growing:

Videos: Bodies of NYC Coronavirus Victims Loaded via Forklift Into Refrigerated Trucks

Posted by: vk | Mar 31 2020 20:16 utc | 52

NemesisCalling @48:

Another way of putting it: Like almost every other one of the US government's social welfare offerings, hte purpose of COBRA is to provide the most benefit to the people who need it least. After all, God, Wall Street, and the Fed have no use for the poors.

Posted by: corvo | Mar 31 2020 20:16 utc | 53

I was suspicious after B's nonsensical attack on Max Blumenthal not that long ago. After this credulous response to corona I'll just bid adieu here, as there are certainly other sites offering more rational and critical reporting on what is daily unfolding. The Swiss site below offers daily reporting from medical professionals and health organizations. The oldest report is the first that appears and as you scroll down the page you get newer reports. https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/

OffGuardian is also doing excellent work in reporting those voices that comprise the "white noise" of medical community commentors critical of the "official positions." Voices which are simply unreported by MSM.


Posted by: Gary | Mar 31 2020 20:18 utc | 54

bye gary, lol...

Posted by: james | Mar 31 2020 20:20 utc | 55

@Nemesiscalling (7) Those who will refuse to receive vaccination when it becomes available are both selfish and ignorant. Ultimately, herd immunity will be achieved, but before that day arrives, the infection will have spread faster and wider than it otherwise would, if everyone had lined up to be immunized. And so I say to the anti-vaxers: Fuck you all.

Posted by: Rob | Mar 31 2020 20:20 utc | 56

I posted this on page three of the previous open thread, but it really must appear here.

It's what I wrote yesterday. Our dumb leaders are ignoring the 3 elephants in the room whose combined weight is cracking the foundation of our economy: Climate Change, an Aging Population and Debt.

So instead of putting the emphasize on Healthcare and Climate Change and managing and controlling debt, we have government throwing money at corporations and the war industry.

Cuomo referred to New York's "balkanized" hospital system that is failing, partly because of bureaucratic differences, to respond to the needs of the Coronavirus crisis cohesively and efficiently in terms of patient distribution, supply distribution, and personnel distribution across the fragmented system.

When you factor into this the insurers and big pharma it's beyond balkanized; it's like a tower of Babel of miscommunication at a time of crisis.

Although public healthcare would be better to protect and cover all citizens being cheaper and more centralized, what this pandemic is exposing in Western countries is that healthcare and healthcare workers are neglected all around, because few leaders are understanding that the immediate challenges of aging demographics and the health crises and disasters that climate change will create require a more efficient and better-funded and employed healthcare system to care for the growing vulnerable in society and also effectively respond to future global crises, wide-scale injuries and health challenges climate change will present in future.

Everyone is being caught with their pants down in this crisis, because as far as I'm witnessing, no one, even on the public side is funding healthcare as it should be funded and healthcare workers have been under-appreciated, especially on the lower tiers, so in a pressure situation they suffer and patients suffer as well; everyone suffers the consequence of this failure to recognize the healthcare arena as the top priority.

Hopefully, this pandemic will help to bring more awareness to this neglected essential service, which as Sanders rightly spells it out, is a human right that should be accessible to everyone equally.

Posted by: Circe | Mar 31 2020 20:20 utc | 57

"If the horror isn't in the immediate vicinity and visibly so, it isn't there." --corvo @52

I think you're right, but the numbers I've been playing with all morning suggest that the horror is going to be in every American's immediate vicinity much sooner than most people expect.

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 31 2020 20:22 utc | 58

Yes, things will change.
In two different ways as I see now.
First they will take the opportunity go inflate the police state, the intel spying and the ''brave-new-world'' state.
Second the legislators will have to come up with some public health system, at least larger and more democratic than today's.
Yes, the USa will acquire, bless and keep on a slice of socialism.
Btw do you know WHY the US has always blocked Cuba? Not because they are a threaten which they are not. Simply because that if cuban socialism wayofsociety succeeds -even partially - the empire cannot stand such a BAD example to lure and attract the L American
neighbors and the others nations of the world.

Posted by: augusto | Mar 31 2020 20:28 utc | 59

Do people believe the official Chinese numbers.
Are the south Korean and European numbers a more accurate reflection of the true scale of the pandemic?
Another question.
The chloroquine zithromax combination relief remedy seems to be disappearing from the media.
It's obviously not the miracle cure but if alleviates the symptoms it worth more scrutiny.

Posted by: Jpc | Mar 31 2020 20:29 utc | 60

William Gruff @59:

Oh, absolutely. I've seen it all before as a gay male in the 1980s: "GRID is something that happens to lude-munching, popper-snorting, disco/bathhouse bunnies in NYC and SF. Nothing to worry about here in Peoria."

"Okay, there are cases in Peoria now. Nothing to worry about, I'm not gay."

"Oh, okay, so it's also a disease for the poors. I'm not poor."

[etc.]

COVID-19 is considerably more equal-opportunity than HIV, and it plays at 78 rpm.

Posted by: corvo | Mar 31 2020 20:29 utc | 61

To Trailer Trash. Been there done that. Sorry to say and sorry to hear. I had no choice either - tibial plateau fracture. I had to sign up to payments forever before they would do surgery. It took me two years to pay. Add the often encountered medical mistakes which left me a bit gympy. Funny thing - you get to pay no matter the outcome. I did however talk my way into a cash discount as follows: the bill is 100. Discount for individuals who whine: 20%. Discount for insurance companies: Minimum 40%. Crazy.

To Bemildred. Glad to see/hear you. Thanks for your health details and suggestions in another thread. Tough hussy that you are - I'm sure we'll hear from you often. About your allergies: don't know if it applies but some one in the bar - possible Peter in OZ or maybe Trailer Trash, gave out a recipe for combatting house dust mites which has really really helped me. Simple. Alcohol about a liter. Dilute with water if it's the high octane variety. Add 4-5 drops of tea tree oil + 3-4 drops eucalyptus oil and mist onto all bedding. Instant and awesome.

Posted by: Miss Lacy | Mar 31 2020 20:31 utc | 62

@sabre (22) It is true that workers who have been laid off will have the COBRA option to maintain their employer's insurance for a period of time, but the premiums can be very high for someone with no income. It is also true that patients who seek care in hospital ERs may be admitted without regard to insurance or ability to pay. But following discharge, those without insurance will receive eye-popping bills that are the most common cause of bankruptcy in the United States. Universal health insurance would make such problems disappear completely.

Posted by: Rob | Mar 31 2020 20:33 utc | 63

RE: Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 31 2020 18:50 utc | 18

I recently watched an episode of Mythbusters in which the intrepid duo set out to ascertain how far various bodily fluids could fly from an energetic cough or sneeze.

The result -- 30 to 35 feet!

Posted by: AntiSpin | Mar 31 2020 20:35 utc | 64

@50 Vato

Escape from New York expanded to the whole USA.

Posted by: TJ | Mar 31 2020 20:37 utc | 65

Thanks b for giving us navigation points in this odd little planet. May all stay safe.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 31 2020 20:40 utc | 66

'It will reach a total number of several dozens of millions and will have several hundreds of thousands of dead caused by the covid-19 disease.'

not if they use Hydroxychloroquine and Azithromycine AZ

'During the initial Chinese outbreak, Wuhan doctors observed that patients with lupus—a disease for which HC is a common treatment—did not seem to develop Covid-19. Of 178 hospital patients who tested positive, none had lupus and none were on HC. None of this Wuhan hospital’s dermatology department’s 80 lupus patients were infected with the novel coronavirus. The Wuhan doctors hypothesized that this may be due to long-term use of HC. They treated 20 Covid-19 patients with HC. Their result: “Clinical symptoms improve significantly in 1 to 2 days. After five days of chest CT examination, 19 cases showed significant absorption improvement.”

Second, consider AZ—the antibiotic marketed as Z-Pak—combined with HC. The French study showed that 57% of 14 Covid-19 patients receiving HC without AZ tested negative for the virus on a nasal swab on day six. But 100% of the six patients who received both HC and AZ tested negative on day six. Compare that with 16 infected patients at another hospital who didn’t receive either treatment: only 12% tested negative on day six. These are small samples, but significant'
https://www.wsj.com/articles/an-update-on-the-coronavirus-treatment-11585509827

Posted by: brian | Mar 31 2020 20:41 utc | 67

Paul Damascene @ 8, 36

if you'll read carefully, I meant if 10-20% need hospitalization

Then you should have said what you meant, because I quoted what you said. Your sloppiness is your responsibility, not mine.

The 10-20% number is in one paragraph, the 50% CFR number is in a different paragraph, the one I quoted. You couldn't have created a false impression any better if you were trying. Even the authorities are quoting a CFR of no more than a few percent. You misuse the term CFR.

a high likelihood of death or serious debilitation for 10 if not 20% of the exposed population

Care to give a number to the inflammatory "high likelihood of death or serious debilitation" wording? Any rhyme or reason to your "if not 20%" qualifier? To anyone capable of analyzing a situation, giving both a firm and a vague statistic in the same sentence invalidates the firm statistic.

vague stat + firm stat with vague-qualifier = vague stat.

You moved the goalposts to include "serious debilitation" in your bogus stat. Nobody is tracking that precisely. Your tone is one of fearmongering. Yeah, if I get infected, and if I develop serious symptoms, and if all the hospitals in my area are full, then I have a problem. If you substitute "injured" for "infected" you could say the same about a car accident victim who arrives at the same hospital.

All I am asking is that people tighten up their statistics and tone down the doom porn. We are drowning in incomplete statistics, massive confusion between the meaning of various categories, and the 24/7 fear barrage from the corporate media.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 31 2020 20:43 utc | 68


"I do not understand why people are still bothering trying to dismiss this covid issue as a hoax." William Gruff @46

They are simply taking the position which Wall St, the City of London and the imperialist oligarchy have been urging upon us since the beginning.
It is this position which led to the likes of Boris Johnson and Donald Trump watching with amusement as China strained every muscle to stamp out the plague.
Those trivialising the crisis, (whose most common refrain is that it only -ONLY!!- kills the old and the sick) may pose as opponents of the authoritarian state. They may even see their folly as constituting opposition to the ruling class. But the reality is that they are promoting the position of fascists and allying themselves with the worst elements in our politics.

Something very similar might be said of those who-for the past several months- have been sneering at the efforts of reform socialists to promote such policies as Medicare for All, Free tuition and the expansion rather than contraction of the social security safety net. Posing as purists, though clearly totally unacquainted with the history of socialist movements and working class radicalism, they have insisted on pushing the demoralising message that there is no difference between Biden and Sanders and thus no reason for electors to favour one over the other.
Now, as the post above points out, that history is facilitating the rapid development of a radical popular response to this life and death crisis, it ought to be obvious that those who stand smirking on the sidelines wittering about sheepdogs, are acting as agents for the imperialist oligarchy. And this at a time when every hand must be raised against cannibal capitalism and its poisonous ideology.
There are times in history in which sides have to be chosen. This is one of them. And the side that b is obviously on is the right one. On the other side are the strikebreakers, imperialists and noxious viruses and diseases like them.

Posted by: bevin | Mar 31 2020 20:44 utc | 69

sabra @22
Payment collection by hospitals of patients without insurance who do not pay is very aggressive. Lawsuits are routinely filed, wadges are garnished, many people are financially ruined.

Posted by: Michael Weddington | Mar 31 2020 20:45 utc | 70

William Gruff @ 29

Its been my experience that the quality of COBRA coverage depends on the job you had. Good jobs gave good insurance, which resulted in COBRA being very helpful. My wife had minor surgery while I was on COBRA. The whole thing, operation at a name hospital including anaesthesic and the hospital room for recovery cost us ZERO DOLLARS and came with zero paperwork.

Yes. If you had shitty insurance, COBRA is going to continue that.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 31 2020 20:52 utc | 71

AntiSpin @65--

Thanks for your reply! And with the way the wind can howl here at the coast, I wouldn't be surprised if water droplets could go 100' or more with the wind; I've seen sea foam blown that far and more. From the outset, I've said wear a face mask when away from your home and have a set of gloves to handle surfaces. I note grocers are finally installing sneeze-guard dividers between cashier and customer--finally--although any clerk facing the public ought to be in Hazmat gear. I'd certainly demand such if that were my job.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 31 2020 20:52 utc | 72

Given the debacle in New York I might reconsider my punt that Cuomo would replace old upskirt Joe Biden. But then when it comes to putting lipstick on a pig, there is no shortage of experts in the USA.

Must check if the demoncrats have restarted the 'hate russia' chant.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 31 2020 20:54 utc | 73

Wearing a mask in a public place is still illegal most jurisdictions in USA. It is seen as a matter of concealing identity. Only bad people bent on evil would wish to conceal their identities. It may be that enforcement does not occur, the stigma is present.

Anyone who believes USA is doing anything but more of the same is dreaming. If anything changes it will be in direction of a more rigid and more formally stratified social order. To make anything change around here would take very large piles of dead bodies. Death by war or climate change far more likely than any sort of positive response from politicians.

Posted by: oldhippie | Mar 31 2020 21:04 utc | 74

bevin @70--

What percentage of the overall death toll in the North Western Hemisphere should be attributed to Trump and his cronies? 20-50% More? Shouldn't he/they be held liable for declaring it a hoax and sued for all he's/they're worth? There're lots of people who were living at nursing homes, assisted living and retirement communities who are already dead, in the process of dying, and will soon die thanks to his/their actions.

I called it Moral Failure from the outset. I'll now add the word deliberate.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 31 2020 21:09 utc | 75

It is an old trick of propagandists and politicians to set the bar low so that a big deal can be made out of its passage. Proven COVID-19 hasn't come anywhere close to exceeding the annual flu's statistics, on average.

Posted by: Vonu | Mar 31 2020 21:09 utc | 76

vk | Mar 31 2020 20:13 utc | 51:

A little late now. There's no masks to be found. Everyone will have to make their own.

Posted by: Ian2 | Mar 31 2020 21:11 utc | 77

corvo @62: Nothing to worry about here in Peoria.

Yeah, most people that are not in 'hot spots' (NYC, SanFran, Washington State) probably think that they are at low risk.

=
brian @68: not if they use Hydroxychloroquine and Azithromycine AZ

To make the hChloroquine & Z-Pak treatment effective, they need to implement the 15-minute testing asap and change their whole approach to the virus (including communicating that to the public).

They are already more than 2-weeks behind Japan and more than 6-weeks behind China.

Best government money can buy.

I wrote about it here: Coronavirus Response Failure: Additional Evidence.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 31 2020 21:15 utc | 78

I do find it interesting how many still do not understand the scope of the crisis fast approaching. With a doubling time of 3-4 days it won't be long now, and no way to stop it, it will take weeks to bend the curve.

Though the people I see around me here seem to be taking it seriously and behaving as well as they understand to do.

On a happier note, my temperature dropped back down to normal last night, working to keep it that way.

And no way do our ruling "elites" walk away from this one. Maybe tarred and feathered and riding on a rail.

Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 31 2020 21:15 utc | 79

Point is, the Insurance Representative touted wonderful USA ER care that can never be withheld; and COBRA as an excellent program which maintains existing health insurance - even as one whom is unemployed is expected and required to pay double premiums to keep it.

And then he goes on to denounce National Healthcare, in spite of all evidence of its great success in other first world countries.

The dude is apparently a shill for AHIP - America's Health Insurance Providers.

Posted by: Kristan hinton | Mar 31 2020 21:16 utc | 80

@57 Rob

If you think that people should be forced to be injected with a vaccine that has not adequately completed a double-blind placebo test for safety and efficacy...well then, YOUR GOVERNMENT NEEDS YOU!

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Mar 31 2020 21:18 utc | 82

Very informative interview of Professor Kim Woo-joo from Korea University Guro Hospital. In addition to covering all topics related to COVID-19 in South Korea, the Professor shares some interesting observations on differences between western and eastern cultures. And yes, everybody should be wearing a mask!

Posted by: Trisha | Mar 31 2020 21:21 utc | 83

A dear friend was being wheeled into the operating theater for removal of a 4cm ovarian cyst when she was waylaid by a hospital administrator. There was a problem with her COBRA. In fact there was no problem with the COBRA but it took the pencil pushers a week to figure that out, She was told no surgery unless she made an immediate cash payment of $20,000. Or, as an alternative she could sign a lien against her house. She did not have $20,000. She did not own a house.

Any who know the American system know what happened next. One week later it became surgery for a 12cm ovarian cancer. Ovarian kills because it is rarely caught early. COBRA my ass.

American healthcare straight up commits premeditated murder every day. Apologists for the system should be shamed.

Posted by: oldhippie | Mar 31 2020 21:22 utc | 84

@80 Bemildred

Glad you are getting better. Unfortunately there are many, especially in governments who do not understand the exponential function. Over here in the UK they are finally starting to move in the right direction, I think this may ironically be happening because of Brexit, where the people chose a course and the government tried to thwart it and finally had to give in and follow our lead. Now the people are steeling themselves for what is coming and the government is somewhat lagging behind, but catching up.

Posted by: TJ | Mar 31 2020 21:24 utc | 85

it would serve the cause if anyone writing and talking about this topic, be it on a blog, a comment section, or as an official, would at least add at the end that the available data is what we estimate to know, and that there are a number of uncertainties. Like for example the cause of death. Who can say, with full authority, and with scientific proof, from what a sick person has died? And how reliable each of the different tests really are. Including percentage of false positives and false negatives. Including the fact that the virus itself is not detected, only its 'traces'. Which renders those statistics into something else: they are not clearly proven facts, they are estimates. Trends can be derived from these statistics, but this should be done with much more care. This would prove that the author is really interested in the topic, and sincere. Everything else is just cheap, rushed journalism. And for this we can read the mass media.

It is better to say: 'I don't know exactly' and provide what the current situation is indicating according to sources, than to say: 'It is like this' and fall victim of sensationalism and misinterpretation. One can bring more damage than help if one neglects the principles of journalism. And, for b, it can result in less sponsoring from its readership. I would also say, like few others, that he should stick to geopolitical topics. Medicine and epidemiology is definitely not his forte.

Posted by: Phil | Mar 31 2020 21:32 utc | 86

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 31 2020 20:02 utc | 46

"I do not understand why people are still bothering trying to dismiss this covid issue as a hoax."

Why does anyone care if a hoax or not? The truth is not every MoA will be here next winter. Some of us may not make it even we are careful, took all necessary precautions and no amount of prays or gods will help either........ dun think you are young, strong and health either will escape this paramedic coronavirus ravaging almost every continent. We have far too many stoopid leaders.

Sorrie truth hurts!!

Posted by: JC | Mar 31 2020 21:32 utc | 87

Posted by: TJ | Mar 31 2020 21:24 utc | 86

Well I hope you are right, and best of luck to you.

I've been working my way through some old calculus books (plenty of time, right?), so at the moment I understand exponential functions well. Hairy stuff.

Maybe it is time we put people in charge who can count more than money.

Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 31 2020 21:33 utc | 88

RE: Masks (FWIW)

I have spent a total of four years in Japan, arriving there for the first time in the mid-50s.

The first time that I noticed some persons wearing masks, it was explained to me that anyone catching a cold in Japan would wear a mask when out in public to protect other persons from catching the first person's cold.

It was a courtesy, and no one seeing someone else with a mask would think twice about it.

Seems to me we have something to learn from them.

Posted by: AntiSpin | Mar 31 2020 21:35 utc | 89

@Likklemore #34
Please note I said *rate*, not *number of cases*.
Italy has a far smaller population than the US.
Rate of infection as a percentage, rates of nCOV mortality per 10M, those are far better indicators than absolute values.
For one thing, South Korea's *rate* of mortality is 1/20th of New York. New York's rate of mortality is 2/5ths of Italy. Spain actually has a higher percentage population with nCOV confirmed cases than Italy. And Germany's *rate* of nCOV deaths per 10M is actually only slight less than the US overall: 88 vs. 109 per 10M.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 31 2020 21:36 utc | 90

@TJ #26
Yes, that's why vaccines generally need 12-18 months to be developed: because during testing - things like the aforementioned side effects crop up.
The reason the effort didn't continue is simply because there is no point in developing a vaccine for a disease which went nowhere.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 31 2020 21:38 utc | 91

William Gruff #8

""COBRA laws ensure you keep coverage from your employer even if you are laid off..."

This is disinformation, and if deliberate then it is a lie."

Great response to a misleading comment. I'll add another to the comment you cited: Based on my experience, the hospital does not wait until discharge to discuss payment. Either the patient or relatives are hounded as to the ability to pay, right after transfer from the emergency room.

Posted by: red1chief | Mar 31 2020 21:41 utc | 92

Bemildred, good to know you are still among the living.

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Mar 31 2020 21:41 utc | 93

stop with FUD b.
There is NO settlet science yet and no one know yet how deadly this is.
i never in a million years would have guessed your site would become a fearporn site.
Have anyone here checked if the mortality rate have increased worldwide 2018-2019 to 2020? the stats are available, and to ask people to trust tptb and the "#scientists" and the media is LOW tier bs.
Sure🙄any sane thinking human would race to get a rushed untested and unproven vaccine jammed into their system... I for one will not read your covid fearporn articles anymore, i know there is A LOT more unbiased and unemotional sources. I prefer science and NEVER bother with #science and people with economic interests in shorting the market or other and people that have been wrong EVERY time they have opened their mouths now and in earlier "crises".
Disapointed Norwegian reader.

Posted by: Per/Norway | Mar 31 2020 21:51 utc | 94

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Mar 31 2020 21:41 utc | 94

It definitely has improved my mood, had been that half-degree higher for maybe 5 days, so last night I ask my wife how's my forehead? and she says it's back to normal. Yeah. I don't think I'm out of the woods yet, but I can see daylight.

You keep your guard up too.

And yeah, the reason you self-sequester, wear a mask and gloves, etc. is to protect OTHER people, not you; but that is really the only way to protect yourself too, solidarity. The Asians seem to understand that, but I think we have it trained out of us in "the West".

Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 31 2020 22:02 utc | 95

Posted by: bevin | Mar 31 2020 20:44 utc | 70

It is with great amusement I read the latest sanctimonious authoritarian "everyone who disagrees with me is a fascist!" Rant from Comrade Bernie-Bro Bevin.

Comrade Bernie-bro Bevin, despite having the opportunity to see it twice now, seems unable to make sense of the Bernie Sanders roadshow. Twice now Mr BS has pulled the same stunt. He's gotten the youth all riled up and ready to rumble only to pull his punches in every ring he got into. He's allowed the DNC to openly cheat his fanbase without a word of protest from him, to finally have the whole circus flop over like a detumescing Harvey Weinstein sans viagra.

Thats Bernie job.

It's plain now, even to the blind, taht given Mr BS' complete unwillingness to actually put up a fight when challenged or cheated, that his role was never to actually try and win.

His role was to Merely act as a safety valve for the DNC, to siphon off the pressure, from young impressionables, for systemic change.

He did it in 2016 and he did it this time around too. The exact same pattern of inaction and passivity each time in the face of blatant political manipulation

If you're incapable of seeing the pattern, and you clearly are, then perhaps it's better if you refrain from further comment on an issue you're clearly bot intellectually equipped to comprehend

Posted by: Realist | Mar 31 2020 22:03 utc | 96

Jackrabbit said:

"The more that Americans/Westerners are adversely affected, the easier it is for TPTB to whip-up hatred toward China."

That's okay bro, here in the states we don't need big sister for much including the matter of China. We'll leave thought control to those emerging from the dark who look to gov-bots for answers.

In my case, the hatred comes naturally after decades of attending industry trade shows watching snide, immoral China-men take photos of US small companies' new products and laughing on call to China about how they can do it cheaper, STEALING designs, ideas and capital.

And now they've finally produced their own product from an American-made SARS virus. Kudos for China-man, something to hang his hat upon.

Posted by: KiltedKing | Mar 31 2020 22:08 utc | 97

The coronavirus will devastate the U.S. submarine fleet. Those guys work in such close quarters.

After the news came out about the crews of the two carriers Theodore Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan being infected, the Defense Department stopped reporting coronavirus in the military. Sounds serious.

Posted by: lysias | Mar 31 2020 22:09 utc | 98

Brian @68 posted this link and quoted a section.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/an-update-on-the-coronavirus-treatment-11585509827
"During the initial Chinese outbreak, Wuhan doctors observed that patients with lupus—a disease for which HC is a common treatment—did not seem to develop Covid-19. Of 178 hospital patients who tested positive, none had lupus and none were on HC. None of this Wuhan hospital’s dermatology department’s 80 lupus patients were infected with the novel coronavirus."
........

Chloroquine in lab tests blocked SARS-CoV-2, https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-422X-2-69 and the above observation by doctors in Wuhan shows Hydroxychloroquine does block the virus from infecting people.

Chloroquine used as Prophylaxis or preventative drug, dose is very small - 300mg week
https://www.drugs.com/dosage/chloroquine.html#Usual_Adult_Dose_for_Malaria_Prophylaxis

Hydroxychloroquine the same https://www.drugs.com/dosage/hydroxychloroquine.html#Usual_Adult_Dose_for_Malaria_Prophylaxis

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 31 2020 22:17 utc | 100

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