Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 16, 2020

The Pandemic Will Cause A Global Depression - We Need Demand Side Measures To Counter It

Last week's post on Boeing ended with this line:

The pandemic, and the global depression it will cause, now make it certain that Boeing will have to ask for a gigantic government bailout or go into bankruptcy.

With most flights grounded due to the pandemic Boeing is now thinking about cutting its production and laying off workers.

In the quoted sentence I used the words "the global depression it will cause" with care. I do indeed believe that a sustained, long-term downturn in economic activity in many countries will be one of the results of this pandemic.


bigger

The airline industry is just one of many that will be hit hard. About 70% of the U.S. GDP is generated by the service industry. Travel, entertainment, gyms, restaurants and bars, hotels, education will all be hit extremely hard by the finally coming shutdown. The U.S. will, like Germany did today, soon shutdown churches, brothels and other entertainment outlets.  Only a few service industries, like healthcare, online gaming and gun sales, will continue to strive.

The pandemic will be with us as a major danger for probably two or three years during which it will race around the globe in several large waves. Each wave will require another shutdown. To develop a vaccine against the SARS-CoV-2 virus is likely to take over a year but may take much longer. We may be more lucky with a new medication that can reduce the symptoms of the Covis-19 disease the virus is causing.

Restrictions on major parts of the service industry are therefore likely to be with us much longer than the one or two months that are currently anticipated. After the restrictions are over many people will have have changed their habits. The travel industry will not come back for a long time. The cruise industry will probably die. That is personal to me as the place where I learned to work metal depends on it.

There will also be lots of layoffs caused by this crisis which guarantees that demand will fall further off the cliff.

On Sunday's the Fed cut its interest rates to zero. That was a push on a string. Today the stock markets tanked another 10%. Crude is now below $30 per barrel and may well go down to $20/bl. The Fed move was likely demanded by Trump who last week remarked that he has the power to fire Fed chair Powell. The Fed should take care that the credit markets stay liquid as many companies will need additional resources. A credit crunch right now would increase the general damage. But Trump and the Fed should stop to push supply side measures like interest rate cuts and tax relieves. There is no lack of investment or supplies but a lack of demand and that will continue for at least the rest of the year.

Last week the House passed a bill with some emergency help. It was mostly fake. House leader Nancy Pelosi sold it as covering way more than it actually does:

The legislation secures paid emergency leave with two weeks of paid sick leave and up to three months of paid family and medical leave, according to Pelosi. It also enhances unemployment insurance. The legislation also increases federal funds for Medicaid, and bolsters funding for food assistance programs.

Those were a number of lies and even the neoliberal editors of the New York Times called her out:

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi on Friday night celebrated the coronavirus legislation that passed early Saturday as providing paid sick leave to American workers affected by the pandemic.

She neglected to mention the fine print.

In fact, the bill guarantees sick leave only to about 20 percent of workers. Big employers like McDonald’s and Amazon are not required to provide any paid sick leave, while companies with fewer than 50 employees can seek hardship exemptions from the Trump administration.

“If you are sick, stay home,” Vice President Mike Pence said at a news conference on Saturday afternoon. “You’re not going to miss a pay check.”

But that’s simply not true. Sick workers should stay home, but there is no guarantee in the emergency legislation that most of them will get paid.

When even rightwing Republican Senators think that the Democratic leader of the House is not socialist enough something has changed:

Tom Cotton @SenTomCotton - 12:21 UTC · Mar 16, 2020

The House relief bill doesn’t go far enough & fast enough.

We’re going to do everything we can to get cash into the hands of affected workers & families as quickly as possible so we can all get through this pandemic together.

There are way more measures needed than Pelosi's bill allows for. The government must cover all costs for virus testing and Covid-19 care. It must pay sick leave to everyone who has to stay home independent of their job status. Not providing such will prolong the crisis as infected people who need to work because they lack money will otherwise continue to spread the virus.

The U.S. and other economies will also need a fiscal injection on the demand side. Send a $5.000 check to every household which makes less than $100,000 per year and include the homeless in it. The money can be taken from the defense budget. A 355 ship navy will never stop a pandemic.

The last global social and economic shock of this size came after 9/11. The fall of the towers changed the world. It became the justification for militarized policies and large defense budgets. The pandemic will cause changes of a comparable size.

Public demands and political priorities will change. Health crisis preparedness and response will become a new priority issue. Globalization will become more restrained while global cooperation on health issues will likely increase.

This crisis is not the end of the world but it will be the impetus for significant changes.

---
Previous Moon of Alabama posts on the issue:

Posted by b on March 16, 2020 at 18:34 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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True enough. But that wouldn't be the case if our response to the virus wasn't fundamentally tyrannical. If we merely voluntarily isolated the at risk populations in sterile facilities and let the virus run it's course through the healthy population the magnitude of the problem would be a lot lower. But noooo. Let's cancel school, shut down factories, the hospitality industry, etc., etc., etc. Hysterical overreaction in my view.

Posted by: Paul Bogdanich | Mar 16 2020 18:41 utc | 1

Demand-side won't work because production is stopped during a lockdown/mass quarantine.

See this: It was the virus that did it

Posted by: vk | Mar 16 2020 18:42 utc | 2

True, but first is human life (at least for the moment)

UK will make a very interesting experiment, we will see how behaves a herd-immunity without a good part of the population without antibodies and without vaccines for this virus, we will see how the health care system cope with this, may be is a eugenic experiment for the old & poor, because I am sure the rich will have always access to first class and exclusive ICU's even if the experiment fails

We can call "The Etonian Experiment of the Survival of the Richest"

Posted by: DFC | Mar 16 2020 18:47 utc | 3

Wolfgang Wodarg says:
The corona hype is not based on any extraordinary public health danger. However, it causes considerable damage to our freedom and personal rights through frivolous and unjustified quarantine measures and restrictions. The images in the media are frightening and the traffic in China's cities seems to be regulated by the clinical thermometer.
Evidence-based epidemiological assessment is drowning in the mainstream of fear mongers in labs, media, and ministries.

Here is the webpage of Wolfgang Wodarg: https://www.wodarg.com
These are the producers of the video: www.oval.media
https://youtu.be/p_AyuhbnPOI

Posted by: Yarrow | Mar 16 2020 18:54 utc | 4

If America were able to control exclusive rights to a coronavirus vaccine, as Trump apparently tried to secure from the German CureVac biotech firm, it could use this vaccine as a weapon of extortion against other nations.

Just when you thought the United States of America couldn't became any more depraved....

'Depraved': Trump Reportedly Offered German Firm 'Large Sum' for Exclusive Rights to Coronavirus Vaccine
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/03/16/depraved-trump-reportedly-offered-german-firm-large-sum-exclusive-rights-coronavirus

Posted by: ak74 | Mar 16 2020 19:02 utc | 5

@ Posted by: Paul Bogdanich | Mar 16 2020 18:41 utc | 1

If we merely voluntarily isolated the at risk populations in sterile facilities and let the virus run it's course through the healthy population the magnitude of the problem would be a lot lower.

And then you woke up.

--//--

@ Posted by: Yarrow | Mar 16 2020 18:54 utc | 4; Posted by: DFC | Mar 16 2020 18:47 utc | 3

It's easy for the rich and the upper middle class to preach for the laissez-faire route: they can stay in their second houses in isolation without losing a penny.

But they lose money if production stops (because mass quarantine has the same practical effect of a general strike) - that's why they want the wheel to keep spinning.

But here's a surprise: poor people want to surivive too. So pardon the USD 80 billion loss at Wall Street, I want to enhance my chances of survival.

Posted by: vk | Mar 16 2020 19:06 utc | 6

China had to deal with the virus without a template.
South Korea learned from China. Devised a strategy.
Italy didn't learn any lesson from China or South Korea.
UK refuses to learn the lessons.
The USA ordered more ships, planes, bombs and missiles. And enforced more sanctions against Russia, Iran and Venezuela.

Nations do what they have a nature to do.

Posted by: Red Ryder | Mar 16 2020 19:13 utc | 7

b quoted;"We’re going to do everything we can to get cash into the hands of affected workers & families as quickly as possible so we can all get through this pandemic together."

Without this happening, the virus cannot be contained.

Time for a little Socialism for the workers. If $ is the fertilizer of our economy, we've been putting it on the top of the trees instead of the roots, and, have been for decades.

I'll believe it, when I see it.

Posted by: ben | Mar 16 2020 19:14 utc | 8

"We Need Demand Side Measures To Counter It"

b, you have a good point on how to deal with this virus. however, to deal with the real virus, we need the so called pitchforks. the real disease to humanity are the elites and the one percent. the ones that are hiding in their private islands and demanding the government to bail out their airlines, businesses, etc.. the ones that bring humanity the wars, sanctions, genocides, starvation, and many other travesties.

Posted by: Rd | Mar 16 2020 19:24 utc | 9

I wonder if Dear Leaders have even the slightest idea of how US government programs actually deliver benefits. They seem to think that waving magic dollar wands is all that is required. For example, suppose Medicaid qualifications are loosened and now many more people will now qualify. How does the government know who now qualifies? It doesn't.

Potential beneficiaries have to find out on their own, then apply, then wait, then show up with the correct papers, then get denied, then appeal, etc. Meanwhile there are no additional bureaucrats to deny the applications, so the stack of applications to deny just gets bigger and bigger. The strategy is known as "Delay, Deny, and Hope They Die", and die they do.

There are rumors about sending everyone a check for $1000. How will they know who/where to send the check? If they use IRS records, well, many poor people don't file tax returns, especially if they are homeless. So the most desperate will be left out once again.

The US is so broken that it can not even competently give away money. (Except to the 1%, of course.)

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Mar 16 2020 19:25 utc | 10

Posted by: DFC | Mar 16 2020 18:47 utc | 3

"We can call "The Etonian Experiment of the Survival of the Richest""

Well said DFC :-)

UK has the best leadership when dealing with sheep, I mean people.

Telegraph journalist says coronavirus ‘cull’ of elderly could benefit economy

link

After Oxford the World is Their Oyster.

It is notorious for champagne-swilling, restaurant-trashing, “pleb”-taunting elitism. Now new light has been shed on the outrageous antics of the Bullingdon Club – the Oxford University group that may be about to produce its second British prime minister – by someone intimately connected to it during Boris Johnson’s membership.

A woman who acted as a scout for potential members of the Bullingdon Club in the mid-1980s has said that female prostitutes performed sex acts at its lavish dinners, women were routinely belittled, and that intimidation and vandalism were its hallmarks.


The Wanker Club

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 16 2020 19:26 utc | 11

Los Angeles announced restaurant/bar/nightclub/etc closure this AM.

Posted by: Dr Wellington Yueh | Mar 16 2020 19:28 utc | 12

@4 yarrow
I am impressed by what Mr. Wodarg is saying. He is not nobody. He was a no for SPD for ten years and did lead the commission for genetics in parliament. He is also a doctor for this kind of epidemiology and know the practical side of it. He claims actually there is no new sickness. Corona always have been in our virom, we just find out now by searching for it. All deaths can be explained by statistics. We only have a panic, that crashes the health system. He says, he is not the total expert on it, but he knows that the experts have a different view on the problems and wonder why they not appear in public opinion. This will get interesting.

Posted by: rico rose | Mar 16 2020 19:30 utc | 13

The Dutch prime minister just held a televised speech to the nation.
Simply put: "We are too late to stop it. We are going to let the fire burn itself out in a controlled way."
There are 3 scenarios: 1 "we control the virus maximally": We try to mitigate the effects so we do not get a peak and we spread out the effects over a longer time so the health services do not get overwhelmed.
2 We let it rage uncontrolled.
3 we try to prevent the damage and control the virus forever by going into prolonged quarantines every time the virus flares back ip.

They chose 1. in other words prevention is no longer possible and only mitigating actions will be taken. I can only come to one conclusion:B was right in one of his previous posts. China bought us all time with their lockdown and we squandered it because of economical concerns.

Totally unrelated: Seems corona or covid-19 can be mitigated by chloroquine. An old medicine which had really good trials during SARS. Chinese medics said it worked in a couple of cases. Seems like we might be sitting on an old medicine that could work but needs to have some serious medical trials to see if it is indeed medicine which mitigates the impact and duration of the covid-19 virus. Let's see if the powers that be want to use it instead of waiting for a vaccine in +-2 years.

Posted by: Gehenna | Mar 16 2020 19:33 utc | 14

"churches, brothels and other entertainment outlets"

You've been living in Europe for too long B :)))


How come none of you guys is talking about hydrocholoquinine, a cheap and widely available medicine used for malaria and apparently able to fight this virus ?

French : https://lesakerfrancophone.fr/coronavirus-une-percee
English : https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bst/advpub/0/advpub_2020.01047/_pdf/-char/en

Dider Raoult, one of the best virologists on the planet, has been saying that for days now...

We will eventually all get sick one day or another, but the cure is just to take a couple pills a day for 10 days...
And the whole thing costs only a couple of bucks...
So it's really not such a big deal...

(except if you're over 80 of course :(

Posted by: SysATI | Mar 16 2020 19:34 utc | 15

The US doesn't have brothels to close down. At least not legal ones.

Posted by: Michael Weddington | Mar 16 2020 19:34 utc | 16

thanks b...

capitalism is taking the first real hit in my lifetime... this, 'it's all about the economy, stupid' is coming into question.. no.. it is all about we are doing on the planet and whether we care about others or not.. money is not god, even if capitalism hides behind superficial lip service to religion while revering money as god..

i am self employed as a musician.. all my connections are taking a direct hit.. i suppose we can go collect welfare at this point.. that is the back up plan for people like me.. fortunately we own our house and i am not as challenged as many of the players i work with.. b's idea to send 5 grand to those who make under 100 grand is a good idea.. most of it will go back into the rent to pay the people who own the houses and apt's..

i like what canada is doing at this point... maybe we are moving a bit slow on this, but i think canada sees the gravity of the situation and are now implementing controls at the main points of entry into canada for returning canucks and also telling americans to stay away... they haven't shut the borders yet.. they really ought to at this point.. maybe it is too late.. the coffee shop i go to is down to about 25% customers for today.. that is a 75% drop... my gigs are all cancelled here and some into april.. i suspect more is to come..

Posted by: james | Mar 16 2020 19:37 utc | 17

@Paul Bogdanich (1) Your suggestion for isolating those at highest risk while allowing all others to go about their lives normally is essentially the policy of the British government. What you may not realize is that they are, in essence, performing an experiment on their own population to test an unproven hypothesis. Time will tell how it works out, but don't be surprised if the toll on the young and healthy members of the British nation is much larger than anticipated. One need only think of the fit healthcare workers who have been struck ill and died from coronavirus infection. Moreover, completely isolating the elderly and chronically ill is going to prove massively difficult.

Posted by: Rob | Mar 16 2020 19:37 utc | 18

What Trump ought to do is not just fire Powell, but every other Fed board member, disband the Fed completely, and return its duties to the Treasury from where they were pirated in 1913, which is one of the main sources of our current globalized problem--the privatization of Central Banks. That would be the financial equivalent of jailing the main heroin supplier of urban ghettos and rolling up the entire racket. And there're plenty of prescriptions available as what to do next. Again, this discussion with Hudson and Ellen Brown has several which build on those Hudson makes in this video interview I've linked before.

Again as b shows, it's the political protectors of the Creditors who won't allow any change to occur. Recall the book touting Clinton's 1992 campaign--Mandate for Change--and Obama's mantra--Change you can Believe in. That the NY Times and Senator Cotton were appalled is close to a Sea Change in sentiment. Most troublesome is the prognosis that this won't just dieoff come the warm heat of summer. Chinese researchers have shown the virus can survive a longtime at bodyheat temps:

"The length of time it lasts on the surface depends on factors such as temperature and the type of surface, for example at around 37C (98F), it can survive for two to three days on glass, fabric, metal, plastic or paper."

It's entirely possible that the elderly population will need to adopt a continual defense mode of behavior when out in areas of high public concentrations & transit until a confidence in resistance is attained or a vaccine becomes available.

One thing ought to becoming very clear to people everywhere: The people who got us into this mess are not at all qualified to get us out--they either need to be jailed or retired.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 16 2020 19:37 utc | 19

The so-called 'new global economy' (NGE) that has been been so loudly touted for the last 40 some years by some academics, economists, Wall Street con artists and other such riff-raff, appears to be crumbling faster by each passing day because of the coronavirus pandemic. These so-called very serious know-it-alls have shown themselves to be nothing more than a bunch of 21st century snake oil salesmen, offering up what can be best described as warmed over late 19th - early 20th century economics. Lord John Maynard Keynes has been vindicated! However do not expect any of these to publicly or privately admit they sold a load of manure to a gullible public. No siree! The NGE is their cherished baby and they will follow the first rule of arrogant and stupid management: Never admit you are wrong!

Posted by: GeorgeV | Mar 16 2020 19:38 utc | 20

@M Weddington #17:

Mustang Ranch

Posted by: Dr Wellington Yueh | Mar 16 2020 19:42 utc | 21

@ Posted by: GeorgeV | Mar 16 2020 19:38 utc | 21

Keynes has not been vindicated for the simple reason this isn't a consumption crisis (demand).

Evidence for this is the fact that the Fed slashed interest rate to zero and the markets tumbled down the next day.

Posted by: vk | Mar 16 2020 19:44 utc | 22

@ ak74 | Mar 16 2020 19:02 utc | 5

From the linked article:

The German newspaper Welt am Sonntag, citing an anonymous German government official, reported Sunday that the Trump administration offered CureVac $1 billion to hand the U.S. exclusive rights to a potential COVID-19 vaccine.

It's been announced and reported ad nauseam that COVID-19 is particularly dangerous for persons with serious chronic medical conditions. As a corollary to that assertion, I sadly report that the virus has exacerbated the abiding TDS (Trump Derangement Syndrome) pandemic.

This follows the general TDS profile: while there is much to legitimately question and criticize in the way Trump and his administration are responding to the crisis, there is also a resurgence of Resistance infoganda: dubiously-sourced reports that Trump personally committed some (another) vile and outrageous act that merits his swift deposition from the Oval Office Throne.

Yup, this is another "bombshell", all right. If you can't trust the word of "an anonymous German government official", who can ya trust?

Posted by: Ort | Mar 16 2020 19:45 utc | 23

Regal riposte GeorgeV.

Posted by: spudski | Mar 16 2020 19:46 utc | 24

SysATI | Mar 16 2020 19:34 utc | 16

Please read and research the case a bit better before you make public statements like this. Chloroquinone may (!) be helpful but not with Covid-19 in general. Only in case of a pulmonary inflammation and no softer treatments at hand. It has a big lot of unwelcome collateral effects. - Let us avoid quick done hysteria!

Posted by: Hausmeister | Mar 16 2020 19:50 utc | 25

@ 20 karlof1... thanks for the link on the previous thread from the talk with hudson and ellen brown..

for anyone interested... there was a very good documentary on the japan central bank which is mirrored here with the federal reserve bank... as i see it we are now moving into the same set up as japan.... check it out if you are interested in this sort of insight... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Ac7ap_MAY
that is a 1 hour 30 minute video/movie..

Posted by: james | Mar 16 2020 19:50 utc | 26

WHY IS CORONAVIRUS TESTING SO EXPENSIVE?

Analyzing the swab in a lab is simple and cheap, but getting the swab to the lab is expensive. Normal testing procedures assume that the tested person is already infected. Therefore the health worker doing the swabbing will have to wear full protective clothing. Moreover, before testing the next patient he will have to disinfect and change protective clothing. One estimate put the price of a COVID-19 test in the US at $1200. Of the sum $1000 was charged for the biohazard.

In most countries testing is done only where there is a strong suspicion the person is infected with the new coronavirus. Therefore the measures against biohazards may be called for.

Testing for coronavirus must be separated from health care. People who have symptoms but do not need medical care should stay as far away from hospitals as possible. The safest and most effective way to do high-throughput testing is drive-up or drive-in testing. The patient or suspect stays inside the car and only opens a window. This way he or she does not infect others. The testing team wears full protective clothing, including a gas mask. This video by NBC News shows how it is done. A tent is set up on a huge parking lot. Hundreds of cars wait in line. The testers wear disposable aprons which they change after each suspect.

I watched VP Pence's press conference yesterday. I was actually impressed! The US will be offering free drive-up testing to practically everyone. I now believe the United States now has a better change at containing the pandemic than Europe.

The problem here and especially in countries other that the USA is that the patient needs a car. Walk-in testing is more difficult to organize as the patients need to be isolated from each other. The simplest test would be one were the test subject swabs his own mouth, puts the swab in a plastic tube and seals it in an envelope.

In the mean time Sweden has stopped testing all together, except for hospital patients. Britain and Finland have followed suit. People with symptoms are simple told to lock themselves up in their homes and not come out for two weeks. The Chinese edition of the Global Times has called the Swedes out for the surrender monkeys they are.

Containing an epidemic and avoiding a pandemic requires testing large parts of the population to locate any unknown cluster of infections. Once a case is found, the anti-corona task force must locate all contacts, test them and place them under quarantine even if they do not show symptoms.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Mar 16 2020 19:56 utc | 27

To Rob @ 19

Yes there will be some genetically weak individuals in all age groups. But, the Chinese did an epidemiological characterization where n = some number approximating 45,000 patients. The results are anticipated to be substantially the same. So I wonder why the scare tactics on your part saying that

"Time will tell how it works out, but don't be surprised if the toll on the young and healthy members of the British nation is much larger than anticipated. One need only think of the fit healthcare workers who have been struck ill and died from coronavirus infection."

Struck ill, some. Died? What like five to date worldwide two of whom had a heart conditions? The mortality statistics are fairly clear age and being a constant consumer of medical attention for whatever reason substantially increase the risk of death. Name an athlete who has died? How about a middle-schooler? An infant? a dancer? I'm personally waiting for word on Sophie Trudeau. They can't hide that. Will she be substantially recovered in a week? All yall had your hopes up the other day when that newborn got it from her mother at birth but she recovered in two days. Face it, COVID-19 kills the old and the diseased with fever that they can't overcome because of age or depleted medical condition to begin with. It's a Boomer Reducer. I find the whole thing embarrassing.

I'm from the US and certain blowhard sentors are proposing spending $750 billion on the "response." Where does all this money go? The healthcare complex. Who are his largest campaign contributors? The healthcare complex. Think what we could do about fundamental research into industrial responses to global warming for $750 billion. Or is global warming a Russian hoax? I forget. It's quite clear from all the numbers that we are acting hysterically. Problem is, hysterical people don't listed to numbers or facts. That's why their hysterical.

Posted by: Paul Bogdanich | Mar 16 2020 20:02 utc | 28

Thanks b,

agree with the 3 year assess: pandemic will be with us as a major danger for probably two or three years during which it will race around the globe in several large waves. Each wave will require another shutdown.

The COVID-19 attack is unprecedented. The economic impact is immeasurable, unthinkable.
"The collapse of the global financial system is underway. `COVID is not the cause but the catalyst - the next 5 years will be about surviving."

Charles Nenner, financial analyst, Nenner Research in Holland and Von Greyrez, Switzerland, sees a great depression ahead. Stocks will decline 90%.

In the last two trading days, Thursday and Friday, US Feds injected $2.2 trillion, first they cheered last night after the 'emergency rate cuts' then it all collapsed today. At 3.58 PM EDT the Dow - 2,971.38.
It's time to panic.

US Airlines industry asks for $50 billion LINK

Sen. Schumer wants $750 billion-LINK That figure will be found to be a drop in the ocean. Think derivatives and the banking/hedgefund sector. Print. Print as fast as you can.

Canada is closed to non-residents. except for US citizens.

UK asked Ford and Rolls Royce to make ventillators.

In summary:
This pandemic is a test of the financial system that was damaged in 2008 and repaired with debt piled on debt -

Governments, as a last resort, will write checks to citizens as they defer tax collections. Banks will need to suspend (bank holidays) on payments due on mortgages, loans, credit lines and cards..etc.

Business disruption find small business don't have enough cash for 2 weeks. !!!

The global $265 trillion debt will usher in the great reset.
And pray, not with this agenda ID2020 laid bare by Peter Koeing.

Posted by: Likklemore | Mar 16 2020 20:18 utc | 29

Is it crazy of me to think that if the media was censored from speaking of ncov19, and essentially, we ignored it's presence effectively allowing it to run it's course, and the order of the day was 'business as usual'; we'd all be better off.
And, why is it that Bill and Melinda Gates are not in prison after being busted vaccinating females in Africa with a concoction which sterilized them? Who the fuck is running this 'shit' show? And, when do we take matters into our own hands, if only, to just ignore the idiocy coming from those who claim to speak for us?

Posted by: joetv | Mar 16 2020 20:23 utc | 30

It's ironic, given how the Chinese have been so grossly scapegoated so far, that here all of humanity has a great example of the saying always attributed to the Chinese, "a crisis is also an opportunity."

If only all the people now resorting to a simplified state under the pest's duress would take that to heart and realize this is not only a much better way of life as such, but also a far healthier and resilient way in the face of the many imminent inevitable crises. Measures against this so-far mild pandemic already prove in principle that neoliberal globalization is not necessary and can be dismantled permanently without the sky falling.

But more likely, in the same way that enough Americans for a quorum have accepted a permanent state of partial lockdown and police state encroachment since 9/11, if the federal government were now to order a much more comprehensive lockdown and restrictions on movement and gatherings, allegedly "temporary" for the duration of the pandemic, but then this pandemic turned out to be as open-ended from the point of view of government policy as the "global war on terror" has been, and the lockdown became effectively permanent, odds are no one would object or resist.

It looks like humanity is at an historical pivot point and can go the right way or the wrong way, perhaps a very wrong way. The threat of tyranny must be added to medical common sense as we realize that the right way to live for now is to take special care and precaution with the vulnerable elderly, but not otherwise radically amputate the limbs of our lives, limbs which ought to remain sufficiently functional.

Posted by: Russ | Mar 16 2020 20:33 utc | 31

@ Tom_LX | Mar 16 2020 19:26 utc | 12

Yeah, of course, the experiment of "herd immunity" is about "herds", because normally people should revolt in masses if someone try to treat them as sheeps ready for the slaughterhouse, at least those who are to pay, with their health or the health of their relatives, the failure of the richs' experiment (the richs always have, of course, many safeguards)

UK people are surprising, can be proud, tough and resolute with foreign powers, which is admirable, but never with the abuses of their "betters" (kleptogracy)

Posted by: DFC | Mar 16 2020 20:37 utc | 32

@ Ort | Mar 16 2020 19:45 utc | 24

Dude, I don’t give a rat’s ass about Donald Trump or any other American political leader.

Democrat and Republican. They are all scum. All of them.

But the German Interior Minister Horst Seehofer, foreign minister Heiko Maas, and the German Health Ministry are treating this American takeover threat as real:

"At a news conference on Sunday, interior minister Horst Seehofer was asked to confirm the attempts to court the German company. 'I can only say that I have heard several times today from government officials today that this is the case, and we will be discussing it in the crisis committee tomorrow,' he said."

Coronavirus: anger in Germany at report Trump seeking exclusive vaccine deal
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/16/not-for-sale-anger-in-germany-at-report-trump-seeking-exclusive-coronavirus-vaccine-deal

Germany tries to stop US from luring away firm seeking coronavirus vaccine
https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-germany-usa-idUSL8N2B8075

Posted by: ak74 | Mar 16 2020 20:40 utc | 33

It's probably a week, or two, too early to raise this subject but when are the sleazy politicians in the NeoLiberal Western mock democracies going to launch a formal inquiry into the existence, facilitation and operations of Tax Havens, and Swiss & other 'offshore' bank accounts?

It's probably time to ask why such secretive institutions, and their clients, are beyond the Law, and whether they have a potentially lethal purpose?

The Rich Folks who own the West's politicians remind me of crocodiles.

Never smile at a crocodile.
No you can't get friendly with a crocodile.
When he looks at you with his welcome grin,
He's imagining how well you'd fit within his skin.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Mar 16 2020 20:40 utc | 34

Neoliberalism should have died at the GFC it has been on life support ever since until now and hopefully the virus will kill it!

Posted by: michael lacey | Mar 16 2020 20:42 utc | 35

Borrowing from Poe's The Masque of the Red Death, Joe Lauria updates it for today's crisis. Reagan's Greed is Good mantra has finally been shown it's not in a most humbling manner.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 16 2020 20:44 utc | 36

If this is a bio-weapon (and it is) To expect the originator of this virus and resulting chaos to solve it for the poor public seems nieve.
The rich have there money and more importantly tangible assets off-shore.
At some stage the rigged card game comes to an end. The trickster gathers the money and heads for the door ! That is excactly what we see right now.
U.K. Thatcher said ‘there’s no such thing as society!’ You better beleave that.
One trick being used is - - doing the right thing a month to late (think about that)
So back to the most important question- -
Was this a bio- weapon or not ?
We seem devided into two camps.

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 16 2020 20:45 utc | 37


It looks like the younger you are, the less symptoms you're going to develop if you catch COVID-19. Especially children seem to be affected only mildly or completely unaffected. Which is great, but opens the possibility for a large number of infected, healthy children being a latent danger for adults. That's why it's so important to shut down schools and kindergartens. This measure alone might slow the epidemic big part.

I hope Johnson has been mindful of this problem with his strategy. What about British schools?


Posted by: mk | Mar 16 2020 20:50 utc | 38

IMHO the reason for the behavior of BoJo is that UK depends a lot from the City, England had in the past a powerful industry, England made planes, cars, PC's (or something similar), chemical products (ICI was as bigger as BASF or the big german chemical companies), steel products, shipyards, etc...was a country making what they need and export also a lot, but today the british economy depends a lot on the raw mats, currency and financial derivatives of the City, and the balance sheet of the BoE is bloodcurling...If a crushing financial reset occurs, in any case it will not depend of the economy in UK, anyway the City will suffer a crushing debacle.

Posted by: DFC | Mar 16 2020 20:52 utc | 39

I was wondering when the PTB crash the markets. I mean, since 2010 we've been on a roll, and usually every 10 or 15 years the markets are crashed and the table wiped clean, allowing the uber rich to buy everything on the cheap. When will the housing market crash? Will ncov19 lead to massive layoffs and job losses causing home owners to fall behind and into foreclosure? Is biowarfare the new and now the preferred method to bankrupt the little people and redistribute wealth upward? Have we lost our collective mind?

Posted by: joetv | Mar 16 2020 20:53 utc | 40

Wow, what a difference a month makes. A month ago I was on here criticizing the local watering hole, aka echo chamber, for dismissing the virus as nothing. B and the 'we got this, no worries' crowd attacked my criticizing the trusting of obviously inaccurate Chinese data and proclaimed me a racist. I was 'sensationalizing' the virus, per Bernhard, and his loyal confirmation bias patrons, who spared no rationality to declare my input as useless.

Enjoy it all!

Posted by: an on or miss | Mar 16 2020 21:00 utc | 41

Sputnik has finally produced an article dealing with China's demand for answers from the Outlaw US Empire related to COVID-19 being a bioweapon. although the item's short on substance, it at least breaks the silence in place since last Thursday. As expected, Pompeo dodged the questions and tried to return serve to China, but IMO the evidence cited by China's too strong as many deaths attributed to flu were actually caused by COVID-19. Escobar's parsing of Xi's word choices I posted to the latest open thread along with the pointed questions show China has much to doubt and everything to suspect.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 16 2020 21:04 utc | 42

@ Reagan> The Man Who Sold the World: Ronald Reagan and the Betrayal of Main Street America [William Kleinknecht] also Kitty Kelly's "Nancy".

......

@ Mark2 | Mar 16 2020 20:45 utc | 39 (weapon)

Seems to be a weapon. That does not mean the out-break is an attack. The US lost several hydrogen bombs but never used any in attack. (the tests over Japan were not hydrogen) Anyway, if if got out of a weapon lab it's a weapon, whether rifle or germ.

Boyle absolutely swears it's a weapon.

You can bet real money that, accident or attack, the powerful will colonize and curate the disasters as they seek more power.

Posted by: Walter | Mar 16 2020 21:04 utc | 43

Ort | Mar 16 2020 19:45 utc | 24

On a talk show on Sunday night, German Economics Minister Peter Altmaier praised the decision of the Tübingen-based firm, CureVac, to reject an offer from U.S. President Donald Trump to secure exclusive rights to a coronavirus vaccine, which the company has been working on since January. "Germany is not for sale," he said.

Not so anonymous.

Posted by: foolisholdman | Mar 16 2020 21:08 utc | 44

Today’s oncoming economic meltdown can only be prevented if the lessons of 1933 are taken seriously. It is time for a 21st Century Pecora Commission. Will we be lucky enough to have another Ferdinand Pecora, another Smedley Butler, another FDR? Will the American Sheeple wake up to demand justice from the powerful swamp dwellers?

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2020/03/16/standing-at-precipice-of-a-financial-collapse-time-for-21-century-pecora-commission/

Posted by: Nathan Mulcahy | Mar 16 2020 21:13 utc | 45

Mark2 @39

I am confident that the covid is a bio-weapon, but I disagree that it was part of an elaborate and carefully planned plot. It is more of a rash act by petulant retards in the misnamed "intelligence community" lashing out in mindless anger because they are losing on all fronts. I seriously doubt the Harvard frat boys down in Langley expected their little pranks to shake the West's economy all the way to its foundations. Predicting that would necessitate being able to think at least two or three moves ahead on "the Grand Chessboard", but Langley's finest are shoot-em-up video game players, not chess masters.

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 16 2020 21:14 utc | 46

Mk @ 40
Boris Johnson has predictably and deliberately kept the schools open ! One infected child goes in, 50 infected children come out ! Yet more proof of my previous comment.
—————
Putin must have seen this coming, did’nt he ditch the doller and buy gold ?
—————-
If this thing lasts 3 years, what will the death count be then ? And will it include you and me ?

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 16 2020 21:15 utc | 47

gepay@ #6

The article you cite is written by Scott Humor. Cuchulain was the legendary Irish king who fought with the tide. Be careful where you accept online medical advice.

Posted by: oldhippie | Mar 16 2020 21:22 utc | 48

Dr. Wodarg is a moron. A retired Professor longing for attention.
Watch what he says and note that he never addresses SARS-CoV2 specifically. Every student is aware that there are a lot of Corona viruses out there. What he doesn't get is what MoA readers and every half - educated pundit fully understood weeks ago:

SARS-CoV2 is a NEW strain! No one is immune and that's why it is spreading so far. Since it is not an immediate killer, every person is a spreader long before first symptoms show up.

Period!

And now watch Moron Wodarg's babbling again and check whether he addresses these crucial basics.

Same accounts for the "expert" The Saker dug out of some other intellectual mud pit.

I'm soooo fed up with all these parasites which try to suck public attention out of the misery of so many poor bastards only to feed their morbidly oversized ego.

/Rant off.

Scuse me

Posted by: Cemi | Mar 16 2020 21:24 utc | 49

B's right. It would certainly make a lot more sense to put money directly into the people' s hands than to continue to inflate the Fed's balance sheet. This time, the trigger is not financial sector internal.
But what's even more important is to finally move away from the way the economy is run today. Today's economy is reminiscent of an anorexic model. Every illness is life-threatening, no fat reserves, nowhere. One must go back to money supply control and reasonable interest rates. At the same time, you need a well thought-out, large-scale debt cancellation plan that allows for a fresh start. And strict contingency requirements, not only for banks, but for the economy as a whole.

Posted by: Pnyx | Mar 16 2020 21:33 utc | 50

Posted by: Cemi | Mar 16 2020 21:24 utc | 51

I quit The Sake sometimes in 2013/14 when starts quoting chapter and verses from the bible'''

Thank you!

Posted by: JC | Mar 16 2020 21:34 utc | 51

I'm from the US
Posted by: Paul Bogdanich | Mar 16 2020 20:02 utc | 29


Yeah, we all guessed that looooong before you told us.

Every post of your's screams "big mouth over-opinionated American gobshite"

Posted by: Oh STFU | Mar 16 2020 21:35 utc | 52

Boris Johnson is following the same scrpit the Malthusian English aristocracy followed in the Irish Famine in 1840's, in all the time irish people were dying like flies, the Irish island was exporting agricultural products from the field in the hands of the english landlords, custodied by armed guards and the british army, but they let "nature make her job" and "clean" the overcrowded island of this (irish) plage

Posted by: DFC | Mar 16 2020 21:40 utc | 53

Walter @ 45 @ William @ 48
Your comments are right i’m sure !thanks. I reckon this was US, UK and Israel judging from track record and psychopathic diagnosis/symtems as a group.
Someone pressed the Bio-button.
Psychopaths are brilliant at scheming and plausabilty (combine that with owning the media ) and yet absalutly disasterous at predicting ‘outcomes’ hence where we are now. The trick is to never try and find logic in there actions ! There is none, they are mad and we best know that ! Mad and in control !!
Karlofi much respect to you and all you do here.

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 16 2020 21:43 utc | 54

an on or miss @43--

I went back to 10/11 Feb and read the comments you posted. I wouldn't be quite so glib as you abandoned ship and have contributed nothing to the overall discourse.

Nathan Mulcahy @47--

Our modern problem rests in the refusal of POTUS to do its job as Chief Magistrate to ensure all the laws are applied equally, that no one can become above the law. If you've followed my commentary here over the years, you'll know I place the onset of that massive flaw with Truman, and it's become so ugly now that POTUS is the #1 purveyor of fraud in the nation--something the D-Party refused to add to its Articles of Impeachment since Obama was more guilty than Trump.

We don't really need a Pecora as Hudson, Keen, Wolff, Brown, and others have done the investigating and published the results that tell us just how deep the fraud and illegalities go within the government and business. Hudson has also done the historical research that tells us how we've gotten to this point in time--in no way was it a natural progression. Pecora caught the early Banksters, but only a few were prosecuted--honor still existed then and several of the worst saved the public the chore of trial and prison by killing themselves. The big problem is the fact that the Money Power and the National Security State have combined into a genuine Racket as in Racketeering--Mafiosi/Cosa Nostra style that makes the Executive complicit in their crimes. The solution calls for someone informed of the problem and courageous and zealous enough to take on those criminal elements of the national government and Money Power. Sanders wasn't the answer. With luck, the virus will kill off a bunch of them, but that would only be a starting point. Putin triumphed over Russia's racketeers because they hadn't grown as strong or integrated themselves with the government; in fact, they're puny by comparison.

The commonfolk of the USA don't need Pecora; they need every superhero ever devised to come alive to destroy the scourge that plagues them and the world.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 16 2020 21:50 utc | 55

People in the west are too egotistic to act, they still meet in large groups, cough, do not wash hands and so on.
The west will certainly be hit alot harder than it needed to be.

Posted by: Zanon | Mar 16 2020 21:52 utc | 56

The money can be taken from the defense budget. A 355 ship navy will never stop a pandemic.

True, but don't bet the farm on it.

Posted by: Ian2 | Mar 16 2020 21:53 utc | 57

I really do not want to touch the tar baby of this endless wrangle, but after a week of marinating in it, I must venture an opinion.

----

First, I am a healthy man in my 70s. I'm not rich; but I have enough income to have options. That said, as a member of the (second) most impacted group, I think what is going on is counterproductive. I have spoken to my family members (all over 70 also), who uniformly say "what is the panic? where are genuine statistics on infection rates?" Some of these people have lung and heart problems, diabetes, cancer; and yet, they are not panicked. All of us oldsters have simply ignored the media propaganda. If my age cohort has tuned out, how seriously do you think 20-somethings take that pile of bloveating clowns?

I'm not saying there is no problem. I'm saying that relying on (and that means quoting and linking by commenters at MoA) the corporate media is going to create more problems than it solves.

I think the exchange below encapsulates the basic sides in the discussion of the health impact:

Paul Bogdanich @ 1

If we merely voluntarily isolated the at risk populations in sterile facilities and let the virus run it's course through the healthy population the magnitude of the problem would be a lot lower. But noooo.

Rob @ 19

they are, in essence, performing an experiment on their own population to test an unproven hypothesis. Time will tell how it works out, but don't be surprised if the toll on the young and healthy members of the British nation is much larger than anticipated.

Paul Bogdanich @ 29

I'm from the US and certain blowhard sentors are proposing spending $750 billion on the "response." Where does all this money go? The healthcare complex. Who are his largest campaign contributors? The healthcare complex.

With proper respect for people who actually are ill and who feel (IMHO, unrealistically) they deserve the absolutely finest healthcare (in a system designed more for profit than patients), we are locking down a huge amount of productive labor and threatening our entire precarious service economy in order to protect what is statistically an already extremely at-risk population. Furthermore, the statistics of the new flu are completely unclear - because we don't have a widely-deployed, reliable test for asymptomatic patients. Likewise, the statistics on palliatives like vitamin C, or the drug from Gilead are equally sparse. So the tradeoff that is happening is not founded on good data. "The plural of anecdotes is not data."

My personal attitude is that I would rather die in a week from flu than spend years on chemotherapy, draining my bank account, putting my family through hell, and dying anyway. Why doesn't someone do a poll of 70+ folks to find out how many of them would object to a quarantine that affected them and not those younger? The standard pushback against this attitude (which is usually supposed to emanate from young people) is that any attempt to put the impact on the elderly in context (e.g., death rates for conventional flu, normal death rates for age groups, pneumonia as an over-reported cause in co-morbidity deaths) is excusing "the cull" or behaving like Malthus. Frankly, the dubious statistics available aren't anywhere near justifying fears of a "cull".

Finally, discussion of the origins and nature of the virus quickly lead into CT land, and I'm not going there.

I had hoped to talk more about the macro-economic impact of CV, which I think will be much more deadly than the disease itself; but I found I had nothing but questions, with no hypotheses, proposals, or answers. Instead, let me close with this thought.

People have been immersed in what Ellul called "deep sociological propaganda" about some kind of "apocolypse" for decades. Asteroid strikes, global flooding, plagues, and zombies. People have been ingesting that you should fear everyone, even your friends (who might be zombies). Video games and movies have taught people that empathy will get you dead, and that a gun is your only friend. With that background, it is no surprise to me that people are panicking. They've been groomed to have this reaction. Just wait until there are real shortages. In the US, people will shoot first and ask questions later.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 16 2020 21:54 utc | 58

B wrote..." Send a $5.000 check to every household which makes less than $100,000 per year and include the homeless in it. " Hong Kong gave 10,000 Hong Kong Dollars (about 1,300 USD) to every resident weeks ago to relieve hardship and keep the economy turning during the virus.

Posted by: Othello | Mar 16 2020 21:55 utc | 59

Cuchulain was the legendary Irish king who fought with the tide. Be careful where you accept online medical advice.

Posted by: oldhippie | Mar 16 2020 21:22 utc | 50

Lol, poor oul Setanta would be turnin' in his grave. It's probably wise to be equally careful when offered history lessons from somewhat confused anonymous online commenters

Posted by: Oh STFU | Mar 16 2020 21:56 utc | 60

Well, it really human response to the virus which is just a cold to anyone under 60 that will cause the depression. But as Mnuchin says, its great investment opportunity which is why we have crashes every 10 years or so, usually near the end of a decade

Last in the road to corona, first 3 (2000-2019) in open thread

2020 CORONA ARRIVES, CROWNS TRUMP-END OF HISTORY OR NEW BEGINNING (Jan-Feb)

Jan 3, 2020- After Wuhan Public Security investigation and detention of eight doctors who posted on social media about the virus and were accused of spreading “illegal and false” information, the eight were made to sign a Letter saying that they had “severely disrupted social order.” State media followed this up with reminders from the police that it would pursue anyone else who spread false rumors. 

Dr. Li’s subsequent death generated 800 million comments on Weibo by midnight and over 80,000 Chinese have been infected to date (SARS killed 800 people). Lots of 8’s here. 8 is a lucky number in Chinese sounding like father (ba). In fact 8/8 is Fathers Day.

January 11, 2020-china publicly releases gene sequences for new coronaviruses. Inovio’s COVID-19 vaccine, INO-4800, was developed in just 3 hours once the COVID-19 sequence was deposited in data banks for public access

January 13, 2020 Researchers at Moderna and the NIH choose sequence for an mRNA vaccine and began to mobilize toward clinical manufacture

January 13,2020 Former CDC director Julie L. Gerberding sold 102,000 shares of Mercks stock (she is EVP) . The stock was sold at an average price of $90 for a total transaction of $9,119,000

January 15, 2020 China and US sign trade deal

January 18, 2020 -After 16 consecutive days of no new cases being announced new cases explode as China changes diagnostic criteria

January 22, 2020- Davos 2020 held. Greta and Al Gore took center stage. Gore compared the climate crisis to historic events like the 9/11 terrorist attacks. “This is Thermopylae. This is Agincourt. This is Dunkirk. This is the Battle of the Bulge. This is 9/11,"

January 23, 2030 -Wuhan locked down and quarantined. Other cities and provinces follow the next days when New Year holidays begin. Millions were able to travel before the quarantine

January 23, 2020. The Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations (CEPI) unveiled funding early-stage vaccine programs. 

Moderna disclosed that it’s working with federal researchers on a candidate, and now it'll have financial backing from CEPI. 

Pennsylvania-based Inovio Pharmaceuticals scored $9 million in funding for its own program, and CEPI is further expanding a partnership with the University of Queensland.

The University of Queensland is also receiving CEPI funds has ties to DARPA and extensive connections to Chinese Universities including Wuhan Institute of Technology. Backdoor to China?

For Moderna, CEPI’s funding will cover manufacturing for an mRNA vaccine candidate against the new coronavirus strain. The work will be further supported by federal researchers at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) who will conduct preclinical tests and a phase 1 study. Moderna’s mRNA treatments, including its mRNA vaccines, were largely developed using a $25 million grant from DARPA and it often touts is strategic alliance with DARPA in press releases.

Separately, the CEPI grant will cover Inovio's development costs through phase 1 for the biotech's candidate, dubbed INO-4800. The vaccine is based on Inovio’s DNA medicine platform that the company says enables rapid development of a vaccine against emerging threats. Inovio and CEPI already have some history. In 2018, CEPI awarded Inovio up to $56 million over five years for its work on Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS) and Lassa fever vaccine candidates.  
Inovio was involved in the Zika outbreak response as well and reached human testing with its vaccine candidate in just seven months, CEO Joseph Kim said in a statement. 

The company has routinely jumped into emerging disease research, but has yet to take a product through to an approval. Moderna doesn't have any approved drugs or vaccines, either.

Inovio was also recently awarded over $8 million from the U.S. military to develop a small, portable intradermal device for delivering DNA vaccines jointly developed by Inovio and USAMRIID.

Inovio’s MERS vaccine program began in 2018 in partnership with CEPI in a deal worth $56 million. The vaccine currently under development uses “Inovio’s DNA Medicines platform to deliver optimized synthetic antigenic genes into cells, where they are translated into protein antigens that activate an individual’s immune system” and the program is partnered with U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases (USAMRIID) and the NIH, among others. That program is currently undergoing testing in the Middle East.

Inovio’s collaboration with the U.S. military in regards to DNA vaccines is nothing new, as their past efforts to develop a DNA vaccine for both Ebola and Marburg virus were also part of an “active biodefense program” that has “garnered multiple grants from the Department of Defense, Defense Threat Reduction Agency (DTRA), National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID), and other government agencies.”

It is also worth noting that Inovio Pharmaceuticals has direct access to the Chinese pharmaceutical market through its partnership with China’s ApolloBio Corp., which currently has an exclusive license to sell Inovio-made DNA immunotherapy products to Chinese customers.

On January 23, 2020 the Shi Zhengli team published an article on bioRxiv preprinted version of the platform titled, “A pneumonia outbreak associated with a new coronavirus of probable bat origin.” The report proposed that the new Wuhan Coronavirus was derived from bats. The paper was subsequently published in the journal Nature on February 3.

The article stated that they found that the sequence of the novel Coronavirus was 96.2% identical to that of the Coronavirus numbered RaTG13 derived from Yunnan horseshoe bats

January 24, 2020 Netflix releases Pandemic docu-series, an eerily timed documentary about pandemics, and obviously production began well before the Wuhan pandemic. As theaters and Cinemas plan to close , and sports entertainment is ended, Netflix should experience a boon in business as people hide in their caved and turn to streaming on Smart TV’s.

January 23, 2020- A report from HK Reuters reports President Xi Jinping has pushed to upgrade the country’s rickety healthcare system, enlisting technology giants including $474 billion Tencent and insurance group Ping An. A unit of the latter has partnered with local governments in Shenzhen and Chongqing to develop an algorithm it claims can predict the transmission of influenza and other infectious diseases with 90%-plus accuracy. Elsewhere, the likes of $50 billion video-surveillance specialist, Hikvision, are helping Beijing develop high-tech, digitally-connected urban smart cities.

The tech will be deployed to detect unusual numbers of feverish people in train stations, while simultaneously cross-referencing healthcare history based on facial recognition and other identification means, travel records and weather patterns.

On Jan 27th, Shi Zhengli submitted the registration information of RaTG13 bat virus referred to in her Jan 23 preprint article, showing that the virus was isolated from the feces of Yunnan horseshoe bats (chrysanthemum bat) as early as July 24, 2013. It was never mentioned in any of her previous papers. Must of been locked away in an ice box for 7 years or something.

On January 28 it was reported the US has charged a Harvard professor and two Chinese researchers based in Boston with assisting the Chinese government. Harvard department chair Charles Lieber is accused of lying about his connections, while the researchers were charged with being foreign agents.

Yanqing Ye, a Boston University robotics researcher, was arrested for concealing the fact that she was in the Chinese army. Ms Ye is accused of falsely identifying herself as a student and also continuing to work for the People's Liberation Army, while completing a number of assignments in the US.

Cancer researcher Zaosong Zheng was arrested at Boston Logan International Airport with 21 vials of biological samples in his bag. Prosecutors allege he was planning to return to China to continue his research there.

Court documents allege Mr Lieber, who has worked as the head investigator at the Lieber Research Group at Harvard University, received more than $15m (£11.5m) in grants from the US National Institute of Health and the US Department of Defence.
Recipients of these grants have to disclose any conflicts of interest, including financial support from foreign governments or organisations.

January 28 -AbCellera Biologics Inc. has started a program to discover mAbs as potential treatments for patients infected with the 2019-nCoV that was first identified in Wuhan, China, the company’s CEO, Carl Hansen, told BioCentury.

The work is being undertaken via a contract the Defense Advanced Projects Research Agency (DARPA) awarded to AbCellera in 2018 to lead the development of the Pandemic Prevention Platform (P3) program, a rapid response platform against pandemic viral threats.

AbCellera has partnered with the Vaccine Research Center at NIH’s National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) and other researchers “who will test antibody candidates for prophylactic and therapeutic potency against the 2019-nCoV,” the company said in a statement.

Jan 31, 2020 -Trump declares US-China travel ban

Feb 3, 2020-President Trump’s Director of the Office of Science and Technology Policy, Kelvin K. Droegemeier, wrote to the National Academy of Sciences President, Dr. Marcia McNutt, on February 3, 2020, to probe the origin of the 2019 coronavirus. Dir. Droegemeier requested the National Academy of Science (NAS) scientists provide a “Rapid Response Assessment . . . that would help determine the origins of 2019 2019-nCoV, specifically from an evolutionary/structural biology standpoint.

Feb 14, Pandemic Prevention Platform - or P3 set up 2 years ago and funded by the Defense Advanced Research Agency - Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, announced plans to respond rapidly to COVID-19 until a vaccine is developed. The first part of the plan is to identify antibodies and get antibodies from people who've been infected with COVID-19 and recovered. The second part is to develop a drug that can be used based on these antibodies. They plan to try and just take the genetic material that codes for these antibodies and put that into people and let the people's own cells make the antibody. So the people become the bioreactors by altering their DNA. This technology is still a very early technology.. It's only been tested in tens of patients, so its experimental. They may have something ready in as soon as 90 days.

Altering a populations DNA with a fast tracked (untested) vaccine. What could go wrong. LOL. Depopulation here we come.

Posted by: Pft | Mar 16 2020 22:00 utc | 61

Rob @ 19, Paul Bogdanich @ 29:

There has been recent news that a 21-year-old Spanish football coach has died from COVID-19.

The coach had an underlying condition (leukaemia) that he and his family were completely unaware of and which was discovered only after he went into hospital with COVID-19 symptoms.

This would suggest that there are very many people in the younger age groups who like Francisco Garcia have conditions they do not know of, and only when they have to seek medical help or be hospitalised will they learn of these underlying problems. By then for many of them, again as in Garcia's case, medical attention won't be of much help.

No doubt some of these underlying conditions will be hereditary. Other conditions (like those caused by herpes viruses) will have been picked up over the years from other people. Many young people these days are working as casuals or temporary workers in jobs with pay insufficient to meet even their most basic needs (shelter, rent, food, clothes, transport to and from work). They may be working two or more jobs at once, in conditions where they are likely to be exposed to several pathogens which could stay dormant in their bodies until their immune systems are run down or a second pathogen (like the coronavirus that causes COVID-19) enters their bodies.

Posted by: Jen | Mar 16 2020 22:02 utc | 62

@17 Michael Weddington

https://statelaws.findlaw.com/nevada-law/nevada-prostitution-and-solicitation-laws.html

Nevada has legalized prostitution in some counties.


@50, oldhippie

The Saker article was an interview, translated by Scott Humor, sourced at the top of the article (https://russian.rt.com/russia/article/728437-intervyu-koronavirus-pulmonolog)

Alexander Chuchalin, the Head of Department of Hospital therapy of the Russian National Research Medical Pirogov University.

So, it was an RT interview.

It happens to be, so far, one of the most detailed, useful sources of factual information on the virus and its effects, as well as recommendations how to prevent it getting inside your body.

Here's a page of search results on the doctor. https://yandex.ru/search/?text=Alexander%20Chuchalin&clid=2181865&win=331&lr=20765

You might brush up on your reading skills.

Posted by: Red Ryder | Mar 16 2020 22:03 utc | 63

Boris Johnson is following the same scrpit the Malthusian English aristocracy followed in the Irish Famine in 1840's, in all the time irish people were dying like flies, the Irish island was exporting agricultural products from the field in the hands of the english landlords, custodied by armed guards and the british army, but they let "nature make her job" and "clean" the overcrowded island of this (irish) plage
Posted by: DFC | Mar 16 2020 21:40 utc | 55

At least one historian has posited that the potato blight was deliberately introduced to the island. Essentially a bioweapon.
https://www.scribd.com/book/182580878/The-Famine-Plot-England-s-Role-in-Ireland-s-Greatest-Tragedy

    In this grand, sweeping narrative, Ireland''s best-known historian, Tim Pat Coogan, gives a fresh and comprehensive account of one of the darkest chapters in world history, arguing that Britain was in large part responsible for the extent of the national tragedy, and in fact engineered the food shortage in one of the earliest cases of ethnic cleansing.

Posted by: Oh STFU | Mar 16 2020 22:04 utc | 64

William Gruff@48
I'm not sure that it was intended as a bio-weapon though it has certainly become one. And it is entirely reasonable that international public opinion should be inclined to accept that what is unthinkable to most of humanity is very likely to be conventional tactical thinking among the US leadership. After Douma and Skripal it is impossible to doubt the depth of the immorality and dishonesty of the people running imperialism.
But I agree with the nub of your argument: the Empire is falling apart and power is flying off in all directions. A "petulant retards in the misnamed "intelligence community".." or Pentagon, was likely to have been behind the recent stupid bombings in Iraq. And we can probably attribute the assassination of Soleimani to the same mindset.
Much of the time spent on trying to work out the rationale of US Foreign Policy decisions is wasted-the inefficiency and corruption of the US government is evident to all. This is a government run by people who are, almost all, dedicated to making themselves richer and more secure-DC is a seething mass of maggots devouring everything within their purview, including each other. The Congress is composed, to a large extent, of people who have made careers out of putting innocents behind bars or onto Death Row. By definition such people have no concern for the public interest or common weal. Nor do the camo wearing 'veterans' of the forces or the former 'intelligence officers'- people proud to have followed orders without question and killed with smirks of their faces.

Posted by: bevin | Mar 16 2020 22:12 utc | 65

Tell me something, "genius", why even communist China didn't send the equivalent of 5000$ to its citizens in the mail, as a "stimulus", to cure the problem of supplies & production? And if sending 5000$ to everybody is such a good thing, why not printing/sending 500,000$ to everybody instead? Let's be bold! You believe in your own theory or not? So ask for a check of 5 $million for each instead?
If people are afraid to go out to work, travel, dance, drink, they will simply use their New money to chase the few remaining food available, but once the supply chain is disrupted,the sole effect is to increase prices, not to bring more food.

Posted by: Jean francois | Mar 16 2020 22:14 utc | 66

Pft @ 63

First, thank you for the encyclopediac list of events. TL/DR. But I appreciate the work.

However, your very last item gave me cause for concern.

Feb 14, Pandemic Prevention Platform - or P3 set up 2 years ago and funded by the Defense Advanced Research Agency - Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, announced plans to respond rapidly to COVID-19 until a vaccine is developed. The first part of the plan is to identify antibodies and get antibodies from people who've been infected with COVID-19 and recovered. The second part is to develop a drug that can be used based on these antibodies. They plan to try and just take the genetic material that codes for these antibodies and put that into people and let the people's own cells make the antibody. So the people become the bioreactors by altering their DNA. This technology is still a very early technology.. It's only been tested in tens of patients, so its experimental. They may have something ready in as soon as 90 days.

This is very fancy language for well-known technology, i.e. monoclonal antibodies. Have you seen all the drugs on the market that end in -mab? "mab" is an industry standard nomenclature for monoclonal antibody.

take the genetic material that codes for these antibodies and put that into people and let the people's own cells make the antibody.

Well, that's what your B and T cells do in the normal course of infection. The immune system learns to recognize the infectious agent, and it creates white blood cells that attack the infection.

people become the bioreactors by altering their DNA.

Any normal infection causes the immune system to create new DNA to code for antibodies to the new infection. "altering their DNA" is normal, not some scifi nightmare. Where did this "bioreactor" terminology come from? It sounds like PR.

Does this report distinguish between innate (cellular) immunity and complement-based immunity (immune system)? Do they say which DNA they mean to alter?

Could you give me a cite for "Pandemic Prevention Platform"?

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 16 2020 22:14 utc | 67

"The pandemic will be with us as a major danger for probably two or three years during which it will race around the globe in several large waves. Each wave will require another shutdown."
Your clairvoyance has overreached before, but this is a record.

Posted by: elmagno | Mar 16 2020 22:18 utc | 68

Jean Fracois @ 68

Haven't seen you before. You know, there's a joke about people from NYC. "Welcome to New York, now go fuck yourself." Consider me as being from NY.

You completely miss the point about the $5,000. Its to pay the rent, to pay the student loans, to pay the car loans. Its for the financial loan sharks who have sucked the life out of entire generations. 90% of any money paid will immediately land in the hands of a landlord, a credit card company, or the government.

Half the country can't come up with $500. A week's pay at $15/hr is $600. Do.the.math.loudmouth.

China doesn't have this problem, so your counterfactual doesn't apply. As for $500k, your just slagging us.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 16 2020 22:25 utc | 69

elmagno@ 70
Wrong ! You just haven’t been paying attention have you ? B has given an educated opinion based on years of research ! We all should aspire to that !

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 16 2020 22:26 utc | 70

for the record, nevada has brothels. only 20ish but technically they're a thing.

as for the US response, you hit the nail on the head: the "elite" (jesus what an ironic term in its modern context) will only give up their ill gotten gains at the business end of a pitchfork or at the sight of a guillotine. in the giant welfare project called the "military" even those won't persuade anyone. you can have the trillion a year they "need" to fight imaginary enemies when you pry it from their cold, dead parasitic hands.

whether you believe the 9/11 conspiracies or not, the US military and its civilian enablers have shown many times over many years that even US citizens are expendable. if anything they'll find a way to leech more money from the coffers. the coked up gamblers in the financial sector already have and they're just getting started.

Posted by: the pair | Mar 16 2020 22:31 utc | 71

john Brewster @60--

Throughout human history we've had disease that targeted the young and those that targeted the aged. The Miasma Theory of Disease was THE major explanation that still carries weight in some communities and cultures today as they either eject or are ignorant of the Germ Theory of Disease that arose in 1870. You may recall the lyrics from The Doors 5:1 relating to the old and young. All the Catastrophism you related went along with other components of the Culture Wars to keep solidarity from occurring, and this COVID-19 as you described looks to pit the young against the old, too. Some don't believe it, but it's true that a very small cohort of humans want to accrue all wealth to themselves, a pursuit most see as immoral. Like the Marquis de Sade, they are Libertines who believe they are a law unto themselves and are free to act as they wish.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 16 2020 22:31 utc | 72

Karlof1 @ 74

I think you are saying that to take a poll on an old vs everyone quarantine is to fall into a divide and rule ploy by TPTB.

Granted we are all tired of IdPol, and we certainly don't want TPTB to split the elderly off into another IdPol "tribe". (As they are doing with Boomer vs Millenial.) But, if this virus is as bad as claimed (not necessarily accepting that), then, quarantine or not, there will be triage at some point becuase TPTB have gutted the health system in their drive for profits. When it comes to triage, given the stats, most of the serious cases will be elderly.

In my POV, asking the elderly to state their opinion is better than letting other people put words in their mouth. Assuming that all the elderly will demand the best care is as divisive as saying that all the young people will want a cull. Its a no win situation. So, I just gave my personal opinion.

Do you really think asking for a poll is playing into TPTB's hands?

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 16 2020 22:45 utc | 73

Patrick Lawrence makes some observations:
"...It is now plain that the U.S. simply is not qualified to lead in the way our elites insist it must. Who, in the COVID–19 case, is looking to the travesty of our healthcare system for guidance, as any kind of model? What kind of nation keeps devastating sanctions in place despite the COVID–19 crisis, as in the case of Iran? Or the debilitating tariffs the U.S. imposes on China? More broadly, in its late-imperial phase this nation is bereft of vision, imagination, or any similarly creative attribute. This is truth No. 4 to arrive via COVID–19. It was evident long before Trump moved into the White House, although Trump has taken us down many rungs on the ladder of decline.

"A West Coast source wrote after I solicited her thoughts on COVID–19:

"COVID–19 is an opportunity like none we’ve ever been handed. It can take down empire, it can jump-start meaningful community-oriented innovation, it can fundamentally change the way we do things. This is a potent moment — a creative moment. It’s a great chance we have right now. We can individually and collectively find our hearts again.

"I count four “can’s” in this note. It is an excellent verb. It is on us now to begin the long work turning our “can’s” into “will’s.”
https://consortiumnews.com/2020/03/16/patrick-lawrence-the-us-national-emergency/

Posted by: bevin | Mar 16 2020 22:47 utc | 74

funny pic with headline from rt - Trump urges no gatherings of 10+ people, says peak of coronavirus could carry into ‘July or August’ shows pic of trump with at least 10 people in the pic!

Posted by: james | Mar 16 2020 22:48 utc | 75

Red Ryder @65

I passed the article in question across the table to my in-house medical copy editor with forty years under her belt working on medical manuscripts. Her take was the translator does not know how to translate, does not know how to write, does not know medical terminology. Not enough substance there make a guess at meaning or intent of anything. Sixty seconds spent at verifying the existence of Chuchalin made the initial hypothesis that he was a mythical figment seem plausible. Lots of 404s. He might exist and might even be a doctor, I wouldn’t place bets.

Posted by: oldhippie | Mar 16 2020 22:54 utc | 76

James @ 78
If Trumps suggestion of a maximum of 10 people includes the US army abroad ! Well I’m all for it !

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 16 2020 23:01 utc | 77

" But, if this virus is as bad as claimed (not necessarily accepting that), then, quarantine or not, there will be triage at some point becuase TPTB have gutted the health system in their drive for profits. john brewster@76
Surely the moral of this story is to seize the healthcare system in its entirety and mandate its employees to offer the best care available to everyone requiring it.
And not just the healthcare system either: school gymns, arenas and other buildings can be quickly turned into hospitals. I'm sure that Cuba will supply the medical staff and teach countries like Canada how to train them- current endemic shortages of medical staff are entirely attributable to the monopoly practices of the capitalists and their professionals. The Medical Associations have, for years, insisted on regulating the entrance of practitioners in order to increase the earnings of their members.
The first rule of response to the current crisis should be to prioritise testing for those without medical insurance- they are the population most likely to harbour underlying conditions making them vulnerable.
It is time that, in the face of threats to the population which, whether or not they are realistically measured, are a hundred times more real than the threats of foreign invasion or attack, the people of the US insisted on the mobilisation of resources greater than those employed against Saddam Hussein or the Taliban. It is a fight in which they have real 'skin' at risk: they not only pay the bills, in this case they absorb the casualties as well.

Posted by: bevin | Mar 16 2020 23:05 utc | 78

@28 Petri Krohn

yes.

especially agree with "Containing an epidemic and avoiding a pandemic requires testing large parts of the population to locate any unknown cluster of infections"

quite simply, there appear to be several countries or cities (including nyc) which did not even attempt containment in a meaningful way. I am more than a little shocked by this. (writing this from nyc where i just drove in to evacuate a family member in the morning).

as for the $1000 per sample biohazard handling cost ... true but: firstly it should be obvious that a 2-3 month economic shutdown of a city or region in a developed country is higher cost than $1000/person. Secondly, there are technical ways to deal with this, such as, just to think of one standard solution (along the lines of the famous two-condom problem): patient self administers the swab, patient puts into sealed bag, drops in box. Then worker in suit that does not need to be changed bleaches the outside of the bag and put it into a second sealed bag for shipping. Also, since it appears there is immunity for those who had it, recruit recovered patients to do this kind of work. if it is truly a first class health emergency you do this as a country. Instead estimating is working about their stocks.

My suspicion is there is another administrative priority, to avoid panic and internal migrations or people walking out of work. If immediate estimates of number of infections (vs "confirmed cases") were made available every day this might happen. It is understandable and correct that this should be avoided (the is no benefit to have such a panic, on the contrary it would make it worse), but in the US at least, the hospitals will in fact get a far worse overload due to the 2 week delay of regional shutdowns and social distancing rules (for example mass transit is still operating here), and the vulnerable populations will pay for it with many lives unfortunately. This is really inexcusable, considering the 2-4 week head start the US had on this situation. With UK and some other EU countries I can't understand at all what the thought process is.

Posted by: ptb | Mar 16 2020 23:06 utc | 79

mark2 - lol...

bevin - welp, i thought socialism was dead on arrival - see sanders for most recent example.. the usa looks like it needs to drown in its own capitalist bullshite before it will wake up and smell the green tea..

Posted by: james | Mar 16 2020 23:10 utc | 80

@79 oldhippie

You're coming to the Chuchalin interview cold and out of context, and misreading it. A regular would have seen that Saker read the piece in Russian and was profoundly impressed. He recommended it to readers and asked if anyone could translate it. A day or so later Scott, who is a regular contributor to the site, translated it.

I was impressed with the beauty of the translation, to tell you the truth, even though Scott, and I, don't understand or care to know any of the medical terms. It was obviously a large chore to get that done and I was very grateful that he took on the job.

I understand your skepticism, and I know you're a real commenter (in this troll-infested topic), but you're misreading the situation here. The information is very valuable, as many of the early comments attest with their own experiences.

It could be life-saving information, it can be easily applied at home, and it doesn't require government. I recommend a re-read.

And for the convenience of other readers, the article in question is this:

How to treat Coronavirus infection COVID-19

Posted by: Grieved | Mar 16 2020 23:20 utc | 81

Posted by: charlechan | Mar 16 2020 22:32 utc | 75

charlechan says bullshit

charlechan should come here and see the piles of coffins

charlechan makes the bitch with others ass


Tell him..best regards

Posted by: LuBa | Mar 16 2020 23:27 utc | 82

@bevin

Grateful for your several comments that I've seen so far, in an incomplete quick scan of the thread.

Indeed this event is a pivotal milestone in the social organization of humanity, and after this first crisis the discussion about how we should be living on this planet will begin to pick up steam. I note you are already there, as is your wont - no flattery intended, simply solidarity and a salute. I look forward to reading more in the very troubled and perhaps very exciting times to come.

Posted by: Grieved | Mar 16 2020 23:28 utc | 83

CDC’s Worst-Case Coronavirus Model: 214 Million Infected, 1.7 Million Dead

A recent CDC projection estimated that the U.S. coronavirus epidemic could infect between 160 million and 214 million people over a period of more than a year — and kill anywhere from 200,000 to 1.7 million people in the country. . . . The scenario did not factor in the efforts now underway to address the epidemic, but rather what could happen if no action was taken to slow the spread of of the disease.

Posted by: S | Mar 16 2020 23:33 utc | 84

Economist Steven Keen has proposed the issuance of CoronaBonds, "to hold the payments system together":

"The answer is fundamentally simple: the Treasury issues 'Coronabonds' that raise a substantial sum—enough to cover say 3 months of standard mortgage, rent and food payments for an average family. These Coronabonds could be priced at zero percent yield: interest rates are at that level anyway, and given the current stockmarket carnage, financial corporations would jump at the opportunity to park their money in an asset that won't fall in value....

"We need something like this, now, before the Coronavirus overwhelms our monetary system in the same way that it has overwhelmed the emergency medical systems of many countries already."

As with many of Keen's suggestions, I think this admirable.

john Brewster @76--

I'm 64 and just behind you in the risk group. I don't see any panic, just lots of concern from workers while employers don't seem to care what happens as long as they can continue to operate. Some businesses are taking advantage--new home delivery by local restaurants in my village is one example. My main concern is sanitation on the huge scale being proposed. How do we as elders comport ourselves to youth who are far more likely to be carriers and not as mindful of or even knowing their responsibilities to society in this situation. For me, the keys are education and communication regarding it all. Technology might help by providing an inexpensive and 100% reliable home test kit/machine much like blood sugar measures. Youth must be made aware that they're the least likely to develop symptoms, yet most likely to be a carrier; while elders must know they need to be far more engaged in protecting themselves--at least, that's how it looks currently. Bottomline, it's in the mutual interests of everyone that universal single payer heathcare be established within the Outlaw US Empire and globally by every nation. The immoral profiting from illness and death must cease, and a very new attitude toward resource use and wealth must also arise--Within every crisis lurks opportunity for improvement, as the saying goes.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 16 2020 23:40 utc | 85

bevin @67 ==> That is a good description of the status of the empire as I see it. It makes me wonder if all empires in history looked much like this when they were dying and rotting from the inside out. Care must be taken by humanity, though, as beasts become desperate and dangerous when they perceive that the end is near.

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 16 2020 23:40 utc | 86

@ oldhippie

https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/2020181814_A_G_Chuchalin

A G Chuchalin's research while affiliated with Pirogov Russian National Research Medical University and other places

Publications (332)

Enjoy. 332 publications should be able to keep you off the streets for a while when the curfew is instated.

Posted by: Lurk | Mar 16 2020 23:53 utc | 87

Interesting prediction:
CORONA WILL BREAK UP EUROPEAN UNION
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R9as1VqvyA

Posted by: Joerg | Mar 16 2020 23:53 utc | 88

@ all the doubter who insist that covid-19 is nothing but a mere flu to everyone under 60:

In the south of The Netherlands, where our local epicenter of infections is currently located (thanks to "carnaval"), half of the cases who remain hospitalized in critical condition are below 50 years of age.

Posted by: Lurk | Mar 16 2020 23:58 utc | 89

@3 DFC What you need to understand is that Boris Johnson WANTS the British healthcare system to collapse. He is taking advantage of this pandemic to engineer the total collapse of the UK's NHS so that he can say: Well, look, we have to replace this because it isn't working.

This is not a social experiment he is embarking on, it is hard-nosed politics, and he is taking advantage of a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to advance a policy goal that would otherwise be beyond him: the replacement of the NHS with a US-style private health insurance system.

That hundreds of thousands of Brits have to die in pursuit of that goal is immaterial as far as he is concerned. He'll just declare it as akin to a war and then sleep easy at night like any good wartime Prime Minister.

Why the commentariat can't see that is beyond me.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Mar 17 2020 0:03 utc | 90

HOW DO YOU FORCE THE HOMELESS TO STAY AT HOME?

San Francisco will be locked down for three weeks.

SAN FRAN SHUTTING DOWN FOR 3 WEEKS ... 24-Hr Curfew Starts Tonight

San Francisco is going the way of Italy with its coronavirus safety measures -- the Mayor's instituting around-the-clock curfew, banning almost everyone from leaving their homes.

Mayor London Breed announced what she calls a "defining moment" in U.S. response to the pandemic. Beginning at 12 AM, all residents within the city can only leave home for doctor's appointments or runs to the grocery store.

In addition, to the city shut down, 6 Bay Area counties are telling residents to "shelter in place." That means ... unless your work falls under the list of "essential businesses," you've been ordered to stay home.

Homelessness is America's greatest weakness in combating the coronavirus. I said a month ago that the moment a Chinese tourist sneezes on a street in San Francisco America will have to go on lockdown.

San Francisco may be the homeless capital of the United States. Just do a Google search for "homeless san francisco". If you want to see something worse, search for "excrement san francisco". My suspicion is that the plan now is to lock up the homeless population and move them somewhere outside the city limits. The legal justification would be breaking the curfew order.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Mar 17 2020 0:09 utc | 91

oldhippie 79 "Sixty seconds spent at verifying the existence of Chuchalin made the initial hypothesis that he was a mythical figment seem plausible."

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Чучалин,_Александр_Григорьевич
"Alexander G. Chuchalin (born. 5 Jan 1940, Perm-1, Moscow oblast) — Soviet and Russian pulmonologist, doctor of medical Sciences (1974), Professor (1975), academician (1986) and Vice President (1987-1990) , Academy of medical Sciences of the USSR (1986), academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences (2013). Director of the research Institute of pulmonology (1990), head of the Department of internal diseases, Russian national research medical University named after N. I. Pirogov (1975), chief therapist of the Ministry of health (2005), Vice-President of the National medical chamber(2010)."

Plus a long list here https://yandex.ru/search/?

You must have spent sixty second looking at tealeaves. Ten seconds on yandex brings up a lot of information. looks to know what he is talking about. Somewhere up around head honcho of Russian health and that looks to be merit based rather than career bureaucrat.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 17 2020 0:11 utc | 92

Thing is, all this worry about companies failing, and bonds dying, and currencies evaporation - food and household goods for everyone on the planet likely costs 10-20% of GDP? Draft in the labour (the farmer ones will get lots of fresh air!), you'd probably get the voulanteers. Run a reduced service as a country, then restart when it's done. (then forget about it ever working on a permanent basis, because socialism bad)

Posted by: Ilya G Poimandres | Mar 17 2020 0:19 utc | 93

We have a two week shelter in place order in my area. That is an official and legal order from the county health officials under an emergency declaration. Essential personnel only to go to work. Travel only for essential needs. Less than 50 confirmed cases, no deaths. Many are getting laid off in my area. Store shelves are shredded.

We will have to wait and see how the contagion transpires.

Posted by: dltravers | Mar 17 2020 0:21 utc | 94

dltravers.. what area are you located in?

Posted by: james | Mar 17 2020 0:23 utc | 95

COVID-19 Pandemic is causing a crash in both supply and demand. Manufacturers are shutting down due to lack of parts. 78% of Americans live from pay check to paycheck. To recover, manufacturing and paying jobs must be restarted after the pandemic dissipates. After 3 months China hasn’t recovered although it appears to have averted catastrophe. My state has shut down schools, bars, restaurants, casinos, racetracks, movie theaters and gyms. Thanks to the internet I am sheltering at home and am sort of prepped. Capital One is closing branches.

I really don’t want to think what will happen next when my bank, grocery stores, hospitals, delivery services run out of employees and managers, when First Responders stay home, and when most everybody has run out of money, food and medicines.

The USA is a patchwork of 50 states and public health services; only those who can afford Erik Prince will be protected. To see 2021, one must survive a coronavirus infection or avoid contact or breathing the virus and have food, water, and shelter. Thanks to a psychopath President and a House that may not reconvene (they are not paid enough to risk their lives) and a ruling ideology that destroyed Western democracies; nothing will be done until after the pandemic’s first wave. A million or more Americans will die. To remain united, Washington DC must enlist and start paying tens of millions of Americans to preserving civil order, provide food, shelter and healthcare for everyone; bury and grieve for the dead. Maybe next year? If not, only local communities where people work together and the rule of law is preserved will civilization live on.

The irony is that the global capitalists who opened national borders for capital, people, goods and services are the ones who allowed the pandemic to spread across the world. The death of tens of millions of people will cause a depression that will completely deflate their wealth. The Hamptons are indefensible. The post WWII Western Empire is in its death throes.

Posted by: VietnamVet | Mar 17 2020 0:24 utc | 96

It's the middle-of-the-nite here, but I feel compelled to help here regarding the *Chuchalin Interview*.
*c1ue* gave a 1st-class condensation.
KUDOS *c1ue* !

>
@Veritas X #91
Thank you for the link. It is really informative.
It provides a lot of the detail which is missing from news reports.
In particular, I really appreciate the detail overview on how nCOV likely proceeds:

1) Virusemia [virus in bloodstream]
2) bacterial *and* viral pneumonia
3) Non-cardiogenic Odema phase [edema: An accumulation of an excessive amount of watery fluid in cells, tissues, or serous cavities.]
4) Sepsis phase [sepsis: Sepsis refers to a bacterial infection in the bloodstream or body tissues. aka bacteremia]

This helps a lot in understanding the many conflicting statements, as well as outright nonsense.

An antiviral would only really help with 1) - but would require being used very early on, before stage 2 in order to really be effective.

Anti-inflammatory is likely to actually harm in 2), no effect in 1), but maybe helpful in 4) if combined with hard core antibiotic treatments. Harm in 2) because it is no longer just the nCOV virus, it is all of the bacteria and other viruses in the upper respiratory tract which take advantage of the open wounds created by nCOV to stage a mass invasion of the lower respiratory tract - which normally is sterile. Anti-virals here probably don't help much because it is also bacteria and even fungi invading.

Not clear what drugs can do about 3) - the problem appears to be the normal edema function has bad effects when applied to the alveoli as opposed to external open wounds. Maybe the anti-inflammatories help here - not at all clear they reduce/prevent the edema function.

But if you get to 3) - you're going to lose lung function permanently.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 16 2020 18:08 utc | 113
>
X-

Posted by: Veritas X- | Mar 17 2020 0:32 utc | 97

karlof1 @ 88

I'm 64 and just behind you in the risk group. I don't see any panic, just lots of concern from workers while employers don't seem to care what happens as long as they can continue to operate.

Its interesting that no one sees a panic. I went to the grocery store on Thursday (as I do most every day) and was shocked. But everyone there was saying "I am only here because everyone else is panicking. I feel stupid; but if basics are going to disappear, I need some."

It's bizarre that no one is panicked, but we are all forced into panic buying. Seems like a psyop to me. At the grocery store, they made an announcement over the PA to the effect that some internet rumor that the grocery chain was going to close all its stores immediately was false. Sounds more and more like a manufactured panic.

My main concern is sanitation on the huge scale being proposed... youth who are far more likely to be carriers and not as mindful of or even knowing their responsibilities to society in this situation...elders must know they need to be far more engaged in protecting themselves

As an elder, I am fine with taking responsibiltiy. I recognize that the younger generations have been misinformed and have had their lives made so precarious that they can't afford the time to think things through.

Technology might help by providing an inexpensive and 100% reliable home test kit/machine.

I am technically uncertain if such a test can be inexpensive.

Bottomline, it's in the mutual interests of everyone that universal single payer heathcare be established within the Outlaw US Empire and globally by every nation.

After Bernie has crashed and burned (or, IMHO, took a big dive), that is simply off the table, short of revolution - which would be instantly put down.

But, back to my question. Do you think polling seniors about seniors only quarantines is playing into the hands of TPTB?

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 17 2020 0:32 utc | 98

As I see it, the sanitation issue is #1--if everyone wore gloves and masks, it wouldn't be so big. Everyone stays at home while an army of cleaners clean absolutely everything in sight over the course of a week. During that week, those at home will have an opportunity to show symptoms or not, although IMO everyone ought to be tested. The problem is recruiting, training and outfitting the cleaners. China's culture of civic responsibility made that easy. Westerners spoiled, accustomed to entitlements and having no stake in society are another matter.

As far as I can tell, China didn't use the outbreak to perform any sort of social engineering or repression of its citizenry as the opposite appears to be the case with Xi declaring a People's War against the contagion. Any other national leaders using a similar rhetorical approach?

As for national economies, Keen's idea presented above is one method. Declaring a blanket bill payment moratorium for as long as the societal shutdown lasts would be the fairest solution. What argument could be raised in opposition to such logical, universal proposals?

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 17 2020 0:40 utc | 99

Not to interrupt, but don't forget those people taking immune suppressants for this or that implant or hip replacement, etc. and those are not the poor.

Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 17 2020 0:41 utc | 100

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