Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 22, 2020

The MoA Week In Review - Open Thread 2020-22

Last week's posts at Moon of Alabama:

> Go hard right now. Order heavy social distancing. Get this thing under control.
Then, release the measures, so that people can gradually get back their freedoms and something approaching normal social and economic life can resume. <
Harry Moroz @hrmoroz - 15:35 UTC · Mar 20, 2020
For the average American the best way to tell if you have covid-19 is to cough in a rich person’s face and wait for their test results
> Overall, we rate Moon of Alabama Left Biased based on story selection and word choices that consistently favor progressives and Mixed factually due to anonymity associated with who runs the site. Otherwise, Moon of Alabama is well sourced to credible/factual information. <

Other issues:


Six years and $20 billion in Russian investment later, Crimeans are happy with Russian annexation - Washington Post!
Ukraine’s Zelensky wants to end a war in the east. His problem: No one agrees how to do it. - Washington Post

Use as open thread ...

Posted by b on March 22, 2020 at 14:21 UTC | Permalink

« previous page | next page »

I subscribe to the print edition of the Washington Post and have not noticed Michael Hudson's op ed there. Did I miss it, or has it not appeared there?

Posted by: lysias | Mar 22 2020 22:22 utc | 101

Four early breakouts. China, South Korea, Iran, Italy.

South Korea patients one were both found, and the outbreak contained.
China Iran and Italy seem to have no patient one. It is unknown when the virus started spreading in these countries and all have been hit very hard...
India, strategic partner to the US in its fight against China, an overcrowded shithole. Why hasn't that country been hit. Trump unconcerned, but secured perhaps a good chunk of the worlds supply of a drug that works against the virus.
US will lose a few but the way the US health system works, they will just be called the useless eaters and an acceptable loss.
With his emergency or war time powers, Trump can now accomplish many of his campaign promises. US economy was fucked so perhaps controlled demolition and blame it on the virus was the option. Time will tell.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 22:31 utc | 102 In the interview above (4:45) with Dr. Remuzzi, he seems to say that COVID-19 symptoms appeared in "ottobre, novembre, dicembre." If it is indeed October, then we have to totally rethink the entire timeline.

Posted by: occupatio | Mar 22 2020 21:25 utc | 83

I've already posted the English version in the previous thread.

Negri basically states that there was a "very strange" case of pneumonia in Lombardy in November 2019. From this he posits the SARS CoV-2 came to Italy much before or more or less at the same time as Wuhan (therefore, it may not be Chinese in origin).

Posted by: vk | Mar 22 2020 22:07 utc | 97

Previously you cited a SCMP article that, like a NPR article, only quotes Remuzzi as saying as far back as "November." What I am pointing out is if we listen to Remuzzi's interview in Italian, he actually says "ottobre, novembre, dicembre." This is new information that hasn't been reported in English media yet.

If the Lombardy virus timeline goes as far as back to October, then it is probably an outbreak independent of Wuhan; and both Lombardy and Wuhan may have their origin elsewhere, especially if they are of different haplotypes.

Posted by: occupatio | Mar 22 2020 22:33 utc | 103

H.Schmatz @96--

No, I'm not accusing China of starting the crisis. I'm suggesting China raised the alarm about what would otherwise have been considered just another batch of Asian Flu, and that's exactly what TrumpCo had planned to do in reaction initially as there was absolutely no urgency made in response to China's warning issued to the WHO in early January. As heavily discussed here, it matters not if the release was deliberate of a manufactured virus or just the natural evolution of the myriad flu-like viruses that inhabit the planet, most of which humanity's developed an immunity to, although even those annually cause over 100K deaths globally. What matters is China made it a big deal and put into play a strategy it devised during the last outbreak of swine-flu a few years ago as it wasn't about to let its economy and future plans get easily derailed. That it served to illuminate huge fraudulent an immoral aspects of the Outlaw US Empire's behavior for all to see IMO is a pleasant side effect as seen from Eurasia and elsewhere.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 22 2020 22:34 utc | 104

In my first comment here, I talked a little about South Korea's problem with a lack of USD and, conversely, of the strengthening of the USD as the COVID-19 triggered crisis crushes liquidity.

The Chinese government seems to be aware of the problems this policy of the USG are going to cause in the medium-long term:

Global inflation on the way after US adopts ‘helicopter money’

Posted by: vk | Mar 22 2020 22:36 utc | 105

@ 76 nemesis calling.. thanks.. back at ya!

we'll see.. it might be the end of times and anything to end the present klepto system that is going on at present would indeed be a good thing.. hard to know, but i think people will continue to do good work and help there fellow man, saving the same small % who would prefer to fuck over others.. i like to think they are in a minority! i continue to wish for a complete collapse of the financial system as it presently stands.. i imagine it would be horrific, but this slow horror is not all that appealing either.. meanwhile i continue to do the things i do to maintain sanity - digging over the ground for growing this year, as i do every year.. playing music on my own, and hopefully sooner then later with my friends.. going for walks.. and mostly thankful for all the we have been given in this beautiful and incredible world...

@ bevin 80/82 and karlof1 @ 85.. thanks and thanks for articulating all that..

Posted by: james | Mar 22 2020 22:38 utc | 106

@LP #63
The lower respiratory tract is where severe stage nCOV pneumonia occurs.
Even in the virusemia stage - the virus propagates in the bloodstream.
Unless you plan to heat your blood up to 50 degrees C, there is zero benefit to saunas/hot air. Osterholm specifically debunked this idea.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 22 2020 22:42 utc | 107

quote from bevins link @ 80
"When death stalks us it is not bankers we turn to, or corporate executives, or hedge fund managers. Nonetheless, those are the people our societies have best rewarded. They are the people who, if salaries are a measure of value, are the most prized.

But they are not the people we need, as individuals, as societies, as nations. Rather, it will be doctors, nurses, public health workers, care-givers and social workers who will be battling to save lives by risking their own.

During this health crisis we may indeed notice who and what is most important. But will we remember the sacrifice, their value after the virus is no longer headline news? Or will we go back to business as usual – until the next crisis – rewarding the arms manufacturers, the billionaire owners of the media, the fossil fuel company bosses, and the financial-services parasites feeding off other people’s money?"

Posted by: james | Mar 22 2020 22:44 utc | 108

@Nemesiscalling #72
I enjoy calling out your crap.
And the more you curse, the more I smile.
This forum is open to all - unlike you, I've never called for anyone to be restricted or banned no matter how much I disrespect the nonsense they put forth.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 22 2020 22:47 utc | 109

Pentagon Reports First DoD Death from Coronavirus; 15 Pacific Fleet Sailors Have Tested Positive

Five additional sailors assigned to ships in port at Naval Station San Diego, Calif., tested positive for the COVID-19 on Saturday. They join two others who tested positive on Friday.

In total, 15 sailors assigned to ships in the Pacific Fleet have been found to have the virus.


Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 22 2020 22:47 utc | 110


The journalist on the right side start talking about this happening already in the Fall.

Professor Ramuzzi (at 4:19) It is very true. Do you know what happened? Certain family doctors, who have the best on the ground information, at least the most attentive ones, have told me recently that they were seeing truly grave cases of pneumonia, which we had never seen before. These pneumonia cases had nothing to do with typical flu pneumonia, they were interstitial pneumonias, they had to do CT, radiography, [to diagnose it], and this was happening in October, November, December. So this virus has been around a long time.

Journalist interjects at 5:00 and asks a question about why the experts said in February that this was a new virus. I assume you all know enough virology that the rest is not interesting.

Posted by: anony | Mar 22 2020 22:49 utc | 111

How many healthy people will die amid a self-induced global depression?

How will a 50% drop in GDP affect the lives of children who seem immune to the virus?

The cure has become much worse than the consequences of the illness.

Saner Policies

Test for free essentially on demand.

Concentrate on healthcare system readiness, along with new treatments and the search for a vaccine.

In areas of great risk require the isolation of the old and vulnerable.

People in public or in affected homes wear a facemask that works.  Most people by far continue working and traveling for work too, subject to local restrictions otherwise.

Society continues to operate. It does not purposely dive into a deficit spending wonderland forever with everything now broken.

Think of the oh so more perilous threats faced by past generations.

Think of the harm caused by shutdown policies.

This rather tame pandemic will prove to be much more consequential in fear than in disease.

Why B is leading the panic must be a mystery to many.

Posted by: Liberty Blogger | Mar 22 2020 22:57 utc | 112

lysias @101--

I noted the dateline on the article was 21 March 2020, so Saturday's online edition.

Peter AU 1 @102--

The economic damage being done here is huge, Peter; it just hasn't shown up in stats yet. And social tensions are rising in unpredictable ways. Our state shutdown coincides with the annual Spring Break, so many thought to treat this time period as an opportunity for an extended vacation and have flocked to the usual vacation spots. BUT, as locals note, this isn't supposed to be a time to crowd together; it's a time to be apart. The town of Warrenton has essentially told the invading Portlanders to go home, we're NOT open for business. Same here in Yachats as state orders have closed most vacation oriented facilities or severely restricted their operations--restaurants in particular. What medical infrastructure we have doesn't meet our local needs; an outbreak here would have gruesome results without the extra 40K people from out-of-county further overwhelming facilities. Automated, weaponized defense machines are already being joked about--the rapid fire Lysol Tank snuffing out sneezes--and such. With all the guns, it's only a matter of time before someone gets shot for coughing too closely--seriously!

But most revealed is the Duopoly's attitude toward the multitude--let 'em die: Bail-out Big Bucks but give none to the little people. I've linked to the articles proving that attitude. And it's really just beginning.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 22 2020 22:58 utc | 113

Not sure what to make of MoA’s media bias rating, given that the rating site rates Bellingcat as ‘least biased’

Posted by: Extra | Mar 22 2020 23:02 utc | 114


The journalist on the right side start talking about this happening already in the Fall.

Professor Remuzzi (at 4:19): "It is very true. Do you know what happened? Certain family doctors, who have the best on the ground information, at least the most attentive ones, have told me recently that they were seeing truly grave cases of pneumonia, which we had never seen before. These pneumonia cases had nothing to do with typical flu pneumonia, they were interstitial pneumonias, they had to do CT, radiography, [to diagnose it], and this was happening in October, November, December. So this virus has been around a long time."

Posted by: anony | Mar 22 2020 22:49 utc | 111

Awesome, thank you for your help. That is very illuminating. Dr. Remuzzi not only says the cases occurred in October, but also implies that multiple medical staff have observed the strange pneumonias at that time as well, and says explicitly "this virus has been around a long time."

Posted by: occupatio | Mar 22 2020 23:03 utc | 115

: lysias | Mar 22 2020 22:07 utc | 98 "Vigilante Days and Ways". Wally got an original copy of the california vigilante days from the Sac State library...and of course the history of the vigilante rule over "frisco.

Most people do not understand that the establishment of the state as final arbiter of violence was enthusiastically rejected in the populace. The Vigilantes were preferred.

Posted by: Walter | Mar 22 2020 23:15 utc | 116

Patterns. It's all about recognizing patterns. Patterns in our government, our culture, our religions, our society. Once we recognize these patterns, then we can begin to see these patterns for what they are, as myths; and then, we can see how these myths created the world that we have to deal with today.

The solution? Trust yourself. Go beyond seeing, to discover the patterns that we've always known about but that have become unfamiliar to us, hidden away by the myths we've accepted and now live by.

Posted by: Ben C | Mar 22 2020 23:17 utc | 117

You will do it tough over there. As yet very little community spread here but we are going into lockdown because the government were not testing and quarantining people coming in from overseas.
Should have ben no need for total lockdown. I had thought my government was doing a little better.
they do seem to have followed what China was doing with an Australian minister being the only non Asian non African in some sort of meeting or conference where the Chinese minister was giving information on how they had handled the outbreak to any that where interested.
We really are heading into the unknown at this point. Both in how well or poorly our governments will handle this pandemic and what the outcome economically and geopolitical will be. About the only thing we can be certain of is that they wont handle it as well as China, South Korea, and I think Russia.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 23:26 utc | 118

No, I'm not accusing China of starting the crisis. I'm suggesting China raised the alarm...

@Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 22 2020 22:34 utc | 104

Then, why do you use "manufactured", instead of "raised the alarm"?

You seem to have a dominion of English language enough so as to not misuse terms, being an Historian and morevoer English native...

"Manufactured", has the meaning it has, be it in English, Spanish, or Mandarin Chinese...very different, in fact has nothing to do with, "raising the alarm"..

You should be more careful, do not you think? Your comments seem elaborated enough so as to commit such gross errors...

We have enough with the heinous intents by your government on blaming China, no need to go around there helping them, in case you oppose that criminal attitude.

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 22 2020 23:27 utc | 119

vk @97

Could you please explain why the mechanism of contagion from human to human would be "perfect" in a bioweapon? I am having a hard time following the logic that leads from that premise to the conclusion and hope you can help me out.

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 22 2020 23:33 utc | 120

Ben C @117--

Seems like someone besides myself read Pepe Escobar's essay on Stoicism.

Walter @116--

Yes, that short period in California's history's unique within the nation, and it's almost vanished from the text books.

As Hudson often reiterates, until the USA lowers its cost of production, it can rebuild all the factories it wants but it will remain uncompetitive--priced-out--within the global economy, and that means supporting the 99% instead of the 1%

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 22 2020 23:34 utc | 121

lysias @ 98 said;"I strongly suspect coronavirus was spreading in the U.S. by the last months of last year."

Damn, I've thought exactly the same. Last year, I went through the same as you describe about your bout with the "Flu".

Worst case of upper-respiratory infection I've ever experienced. For a few days, thought I was toast. Couldn't breathe well, and couldn't sleep, and delusional at times. But slowly got better, and after about two weeks felt much better.

Was it Cov-19? Symptoms were the same as described now days, but who knows.

Posted by: ben | Mar 22 2020 23:42 utc | 122


yes on all counts. I had to paraphrase some sentences (for example the one about family doctors literally translated would have been "base doctors, at least the most able ones, know the territory") but those sentences you are interested translated well word by word.

I think this is a hard data point, as it is coming from multiple sources. You can find similar evidence in other reports. Theories such as an escape from Fort Detrick in September are viable, followed possibly by intentional release elsewhere.

Posted by: anony | Mar 22 2020 23:43 utc | 123

@ james | Mar 22 2020 22:44 utc | 108

Well said!

Posted by: AntiSpin | Mar 22 2020 23:46 utc | 124

H.Schmatz @119--

Do, please, return to my comment and read what I wrote again for you're missing a very important part of what's there. You've been following the commentary here on this topic long enough to know many have put forth the notion that this entire crisis isn't a crisis at all--it's a "hoax" as Trump called it at the end of February--and that it was clear from the outset that Trump planned to do nothing about it, but was then forced to. "Oh, look, it's no worse that the usual flu," many Trump supporters said, and that does indeed seem to be the case as the usual fatalities were going to be used to mask--hide--the actual numbers of COVID-19 deaths. Trump wanted no crisis; he wanted to keep Business as Usual going as his pet stock market was about to break 30K and Frackers were nowhere near to going bankrupt.

To save you the trouble of trying to find what you're supposed to when rereading my initial comment, here it is--the very first sentence:

'Been giving thought to the hypothesis that the crisis is "manufactured."'

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 22 2020 23:50 utc | 125

@ Extra | Mar 22 2020 23:02 utc | 114

Not sure what to make of MoA’s media bias rating, given that the rating site rates Bellingcat as ‘least biased’

It means that the entity doing the rating is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Atlantic Council.

Posted by: AntiSpin | Mar 22 2020 23:52 utc | 126

@lysias #98

Thank you for an important data point. My condolences for your loss.

Posted by: S | Mar 22 2020 23:53 utc | 127

H.Schmatz | Mar 22 2020 23:27 utc | 119

It means that he was being ironic.

Posted by: AntiSpin | Mar 22 2020 23:55 utc | 129

@ Stonebird 24

Tulsi Gabbard resigned from her DNC vice chair supposedly in protest over Bernie's treatment in 2016, but she's definitely back on the team for 2020. Read her sickening endorsement of Biden as she suspended her campaign. For Bernie, a limp salute as she left the scene.

She's no lefty, never was, as others have pointed out. For example, she voted for AIPAC's resolution to condemn BDS. Her 2020 campaign, I suspect, was merely to expand name recognition and/or to serve as another sheepdog beside Bernie.

Does she hang with the proles or the corporations? Once upon a time Tulsi was a city council member in Honolulu. She successfully pushed an ordinance on behalf of the Marriot Hotel allowing police to evict the homeless (mostly Hawaiian natives) from a nearby park and to seize all their possessions, to include meds, food and government paperwork. The ACLU's brief spelled it out.

Gabbard is a fake resister and a climber. She loves her uniform. With luck she'll land the job of VA Secretary or deputy assistant secretary of something at the Pentagon.

Posted by: Jay-Ottawa | Mar 22 2020 23:56 utc | 130

Can sympathize with you and suspect the same. So sorry about your brother. I also had the cold/flu from hell late October, early November. Worst in my life complete with soaking wet sweats, cold sores and canker lesions in my throat that I thought would never go away. Could hardly keep down a bottle and a half of water over a few weeks. Coughed my self hoarse. I am a distance runner and as a result feel my lungs have never recovered. I just now have started back maintenance running and my stride and distance suffers. Just saying, I can relate.

Posted by: George | Mar 22 2020 23:58 utc | 131

@ Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 22 2020 23:33 utc | 120

It is pure biochemical process, which is not that effective yet.

It has all with how evolution works. Life has no teleology: once an organism does the minimum to survive, it will survive. It doesn't need to be the most efficient or effective.

Posted by: vk | Mar 23 2020 0:00 utc | 132

Ciurce @6:

And why does any intelligent and informed person get the impression that the otherwise contemptible Cuomo is using the pandemic as a means of positioning himself for a presidential campaign in 2024?

Posted by: corvo | Mar 23 2020 0:08 utc | 133

karlof1 | Mar 22 2020 23:34 utc | 121

Ben C @117--

Seems like someone besides myself read Pepe Escobar's essay on Stoicism.

Hadn't read the article but thanks for pointing it out.

Posted by: Ben C | Mar 23 2020 0:13 utc | 134

Jay_Ottawa @130:

Tulsi Gabbard is dead to all decent people. Let's hope they're a majority.

Posted by: corvo | Mar 23 2020 0:20 utc | 135

- "Ukraine’s Zelensky wants to end a war in the east. His problem: No one agrees how to do it. - Washington Post" ???

- It's very simple. Start talking to the russians.
- But my opinion is that Zelensky and the people who want to end the war with Russia don't have enough power to impose their agenda on other members of the ukrainian government. Or is this all smoke and mirrors to hide the fact that no one wants to end that war (yet) ?

Posted by: Willy2 | Mar 23 2020 0:31 utc | 136

- FAUX News downplayed the risk of the COVID-19 virus:

- But now - at least - 4 persons who work at FAUX News have tested positive for the virus. This will FORCE FAUX News to change it tune when it comes to reporting on the virus.

Posted by: Willy2 | Mar 23 2020 0:37 utc | 137

In looking up the Spain outbreak, all the first confirmed cases had direct links to the Lombardi area of Italy. First cases look to have been mid February which is about the time the first cases where being recorded in Italy.
That the early cases in Spain were mid February and all had links to Italy gives a time frame for one or two infections to become an epidemic. Current figures for Spain one month in - 28,603 and 1,756 of those are dead.
Italy from the first confirmed cases to epidemic similar time frame.
It does look like time frame from one or two cases to epidemic is about 30 days.
for Italy, it is unlikely first cases were back in October November.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 23 2020 0:40 utc | 138

@jackrabbit #38

That was an excellent reference! I translated it using Google translator, and it came out surprisingly readable. Here are some quotes:

End of the game ?!
The world’s leading expert in communicable diseases is Didier Raoult. He is French, looks like the choice of a Gaul out of Asterix or a ZZ top who would have put his guitar on the side of the road. He heads the Institut Hospitalier Universitaire (IHU) Méditerranée-Infection in Marseille, with more than 800 employees. This institution has the most terrifying collection of bacteria and “killer” viruses in the world and is one of the best centers of competence in infectiology and microbiology in the world. Professor Raoult is also ranked among the top ten French researchers by the journal Nature, both for the number of his publications (more than two thousand) and for the number of citations by other researchers. Since the start of the millennium, he has followed the various viral epidemics that have struck people and established close scientific contacts with his best Chinese colleagues. Among his great deeds, he discovered treatments (notably with chloroquine…) which appear today in all textbooks of infectious diseases in the world.
On February 26, he published a resounding video on an online channel (including the word ” tube “) to affirm : ” Coronavirus, end of game ! ”
The reason for his enthusiasm ? The publication of a Chinese clinical trial on the prescription of chloroquine, showing the suppression of viral carriage in a few days in patients infected with SARS-CoV-2. Studies have already shown the effectiveness of this molecule against the virus in the laboratory ( in vitro ). The Chinese study confirmed this effectiveness in a group of affected patients ( in vivo ). Following this study, the prescription of chloroquine was incorporated into the recommendations for the treatment of coronavirus in China and Korea, the two countries which have succeeded in controlling the epidemic…
Chloroquine is a molecule placed on the market in 1949, widely used as an antimalarial. All travelers from tropical countries will remember the tablets of nivaquine ( one of its trade names) which were prescribed to them as a preventive against malaria. This remedy was then replaced by others for certain geographical areas, remaining in use for certain destinations.
As for hydroxychloroquine ( trade name : plaquenil), it was prepared in 1955 and exhibits hydroxylation on one of the two ethyl groups in the side chain.

So what ?!
Why talk to you about this ? Well because Professor Raoult and his teams are the best specialists in the world today in the use of chloroquine. He had particular had the brilliant idea to try it against intracellular bacteria (which penetrate the cells such as viruses), especially Ricksettia. The Marseille IHU therefore has unparalleled clinical and pharmacological experience in the use of this molecule.
Chloroquine has also demonstrated potent therapeutic efficacy against most coronaviruses , including the dreaded memory loss SARS . Raoult therefore found in the Chinese clinical trial confirmation that chloroquine was also indicated against Covid-19.
However, he was greeted like a hair on the soup, his colleagues immediately denigrating his proposal. Le Monde newspapers even went so far as to qualify his communication as ” fake news “, an accusation taken up on the website of the Ministry of Health for a few hours before being withdrawn.

A study published in the Lancet journal on March 11 had meanwhile revealed a new but essential data : the time of viral carriage (duration between the beginning and the end of the infection – and therefore of possible contagiousness) is greater than that it was believed, with an average duration of 20 days. With the hydroxychloroquine / azithromycin combination, this duration is reduced to 4-6 days.
The drastic reduction in viral delivery time not only gives hope of treating critical cases, but also of reducing the time it takes for an infected person to stop being contagious. And therefore presents enormous prospects for preventing the spread of the virus. This news is of course the best news we could have expected.

Systematic testing would be easy to set up, as long as it is a health priority and organized, which the Koreans have done in record time. In Europe, we were completely overwhelmed, as if we lived in a different time. The authorities now understand that this is an absolute priority – following in this respect the insistent WHO recommendations.
PRODUCING THE TESTS PRESENTS NO DIFFICULTY (EMPHASIS MINE) : ” It’s trivial PCR [polymerase chain reaction] that everyone can do, the question is the organization, not the technique, it’s not the capacity diagnostic, we have it , comments Raoult. It is a strategic choice which is not that of most technological countries, in particular the Koreans who are part, with the Chinese, of those who have mastered the epidemic by screening and treatment. We are capable in this country like anywhere else of doing thousands of tests and testing everyone. ”

Posted by: metamars | Mar 23 2020 0:44 utc | 139

Jay-Ottawa @ 130

We understand your game of attacking opposition leaders you pretend to support. Assad is a coward, Putin betrays everyone etc etc. People of your ilk can add Tulsi to the list of the leaders who are targeted like this. Sanders rejected her support, and since the rules require she support the winner, Biden it was. Did it make me happy. Not at all. But I understand the reason which you so conveniently missed.

You are also clearly not from Hawaii as you do not understand what that bill was all about. It was not sponsored "on behalf" of the Marriott chain. The homeless situation at that time was completely out of control and this bill was part of doing "something" that had the support of most people in Hawaii. But of course leaving out details and adding a little lie here and there is the name of your game.

FYI the homeless situation in Hawaii over the past few weeks has exploded and it's going to get a lot worse in the weeks to come.

Posted by: sad canuck | Mar 23 2020 0:47 utc | 140

H.Schmatz | Mar 22 2020 23:27 utc | 119 Thanks for scolding. Very helpful, old man.

Is symposium. Polite dialogue. Chill, Dude. Dr K is sincere and Wally almost always thinks he's right. Perhaps touched by the academy yet, but we're in close alignment. Read with sympathy, please.

Posted by: Walter | Mar 23 2020 0:49 utc | 141

metamars @139

"A number of health officials, including Dr. Anthony Fauci, questioned the president’s statement and said there is no proof that the medicine would work."
"I'm not totally sure what the president was referring to," Fauci told reporters during the latest press briefing. "But I believe he was referring to a report that used both hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin together to have some possibility of being an effect. Many of the things out there are what I have called 'anecdotal reports.'”

They need a 10 years long invetigation.....

Posted by: Roberto | Mar 23 2020 1:07 utc | 143

vk | Mar 23 2020 1:01 utc | 142 (Interesting read @ newzweek)

The Mise-en-scène ... "if there's a gun on the wall at the beginning of the play, it must be fired."

Yes, indeed, a very interesting foreshadowing, to use the literary form.

Very interesting.

Posted by: Walter | Mar 23 2020 1:16 utc | 144

@ 98 lysias.. i am sorry to hear of your loss...

@ 124 antispin.. thanks!

@ 138 peter au... hard to know when the dynamic hit italy, based on a link @ 81 occupatio shared on an italian doctor saying it was happening much earlier.. @ vk apparently left an english translation of it somewhere, but it would be nice if they shared it again.. i don't know where to look to find it..

@ 140 sad canuck.. interesting details.. thanks..

Posted by: james | Mar 23 2020 1:20 utc | 145

S #46

Russophobes like Kasparov think that Russia is lying about its fight against SARS-CoV-2 because they are completely ignorant, psychotic people with zero critical thinking skills who lap up all of the Five Eyes’ anti-Russian black propaganda (and then some).

Meanwhile, in reality, Russia has performed 163,529 tests with 367 positive results for a ratio of 2.2 positive results per thousand tests—one of the best ratios in the world. It means that Russia is casting a wide net, so it can catch the infected people early. In fact, Russia has such an abundance of tests that it is now supplying them to other countries:

Russia Has Supplied Coronavirus Tests to 13 countries (Moskovskiy Komsomolets, March 21)

Rospotrebnadzor said that Russia has supplied laboratory test systems for the diagnosis of coronavirus infection to 13 countries.

It is reported that the tests developed by the State Scientific Center "Vector" in the amount of over 100 thousand units have been delivered to the countries of the EAEU, the CIS, Iran, Mongolia and China. Soon, delivery to Egypt, Serbia and Venezuela is expected.

It is also reported that test systems have already helped identify diseases in Armenia, Belarus, Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan.

Posted by: S | Mar 23 2020 1:31 utc | 146

The problem I see coming here in the west is being able to both recognise the health damage this virus can do if allowed to run unchecked but also look at what our governments are up.certainly a lot of incompetence amongst the vassal states... five-eyes... I am not sure if Canada followed US UK lead at the start but Australia and I think New Zealand did not.
Boris the clown or Boris the schemer... I think Boris the clown at the moment.
Geo-political moves Trump US, China, Russia... No animal host found as yet for this strain so at the moment I think 'Bred in the USA'. Selective breeding was used to gain certain characteristics in plants and animals long before genetic engineering so no reason the same cannot be done with bugs.
In this case a simple matter of joining a black sheep with a white sheep to produce a black and white sheep. China geared for disease outbreak and bio attack contained it quickly. Russia took necessary precautions early and has no problems. Also geared for any sort of attack or outbreak. (Anthrax a year or two back due to melting permafrost). Russia not dropping oil output is the only move by Russia or China that I could take to be a move against the US.
US using the lockdown for nefarious domestic purposes... time will tell. I believe that sort of situation is the reason people in the US have the right to bear arms. Though many are probably too addicted to shooting each other to take an interest in a tyrant.
But is does look like many of us in the west will have to wear the incompetence of our governments that are repeatedly voted into office re lockdowns and so forth to slow the spread of the virus while looking to make sure governments are not taking advantage of the circumstance.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 23 2020 1:39 utc | 147

This is certainly a compelling thread and thankfully not too long.

I'd like to thank those who are establishing that - in current probability - this virus has been around in the US and Italy since perhaps last October. And thus the extremely severe flu we experienced last year, with its high death rate, was COVID-19 undiagnosed.

karlof1 is advancing an astonishing thesis (as hypothesis): if this lack of diagnosis had continued, we wouldn't be in the midst of this economic recession/depression right now in the west. And of all nations, it was China that created the "demonstration effect" that proved so superior that all other nations were - in their shock - humbled into following it.

I don't expect that China "played" us, and certainly this is not what karlof1 proposes. It was enough that China had previous experience of this type of event, and since its governance is a meritocratic learning mechanism, this time it was ready to act.

If all this is so, then it is the most amazing depiction of "soft power" the world has perhaps ever seen outside of the founding of major religions deriving from singular, sublime instances.

I don't think China gamed this. I think it's just how it all shakes out as the new paradigm in town shatters all previous paradigms. What is it the Russians call the "balance of power"? Something like the "alignment of forces" - I have that wrong, but something like that.

This is the new world. I am going to try very hard to survive this virological event and this economic depression, in order to sally forth into this new world and celebrate it.

Posted by: Grieved | Mar 23 2020 1:43 utc | 148

An article in The Guardian worth looking at, for a change. Economics editor Larry Elliott argues that this crisis is going to produce big policy changes. He compares it with the 1929 crash as a shock. This is the way his argument ends:

"...Four big things happened in the 1930s and 1940s. First, the old economics was abandoned. Countries came off the gold standard and states began to pump-prime growth, albeit timidly in most cases. Maynard Keynes’s general theory inspired an entire generation of economists and policymakers.

"Second, there was an attempt to inject equity into economies through enhanced power for trade unions, more progressive taxation and the expansion of welfare states.

"Third, work began early on this progressive agenda. In Britain, the Beveridge report, the Butler education act and the white paper on employment all emerged while the second world war was still raging.

"Finally, there were attempts to build a new international architecture through the creation of the United Nations, the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank, which was intended to avoid the policy fragmentation of the 1930s.

"How close are we to a repeat of all this? Just consider, a model that has failed not once (in 2007/8-bevin) but twice has been ditched. Governments recognise they have to support their citizens through this. New ideas such as universal basic income are being championed, and without multilateral cooperation there will be no victory against Covid-19...."

As suggested before, in this and previous threads, this is the end of neo-liberalism. What replaces it remains to be decided. If popular forces can unite around a programme of democratic reform, the current system can be transformed into a society in which the common weal is internationally pursued. If the people allow themselves to be divided by useless sectarian disputes over semantics, race and religion the ruling class, backed by violence will re-assert themselves. Their first moves will be to ensure that democracy, already a parody of its real meaning will be put out of its misery.
Socialism or Barbarism remains the central question of this era as capitalism withers away.
It is a question that deserves to be taken seriously- those who refuse to do so, are unable to recognise that the times call for all to work together, rather than to compete and show off, will be effectively campaigning for Barbarism and a refoundation of this cannibal's system.

Posted by: bevin | Mar 23 2020 1:43 utc | 149

Bruce 37

Provided everything you claim is verifiable,
we now have four possible scenario,

1] A US FF, where agents planted this shit in Wuhan,
[this the most probable ]

2] a natural mutation,

3] an accidental leak from fort Detrick

4] an accidental leak from Wuhan lab
[This the least likely]

Posted by: denk | Mar 23 2020 1:54 utc | 150

Bart Hanser@84, karlof1@99:

I'd suggest having a look at the post of Michael Hudson's article in the Washington Post - considerable conversation there in comments, and I had earlier posted one of my own, was happy to see I was favorably received as I did get a bit hot under the collar (really I did!)

I was interested in Pepe's piece on stoicism also, but was a bit puzzled by his emphasis on the negative aspects of the philosophy. He begins with the Chinese having used a Seneca quotation on their arrival with medicines in Italy, and while I'm not an expert on Seneca, it did seem more positive than what Pepe ended up alluding to, rather negative aspects of stoicism that I don't think were in the Chinese intention, nor in the apparently favorable reception by the Italians in general.

Dr. Hudson's article is commendably simple and easy to read on debt forgiveness and how this would be the time for it if ever there has been such. I would appreciate an explanation of Pepe's subtlety by others who have more understanding of his wickedry.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 23 2020 1:55 utc | 151

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 22 2020 21:38 utc | 85

But do note, it's China that raises the alarm and stirs the outbreak into a crisis.

And if along those lines with the added benefit of providing european vassals the force majeur excuse of cancelling the Defender 2020 exercise.

I think you are onto something...

Posted by: Vasco da Gama | Mar 23 2020 1:55 utc | 152

The notion the nCOV was circulating around the world in October or November is nonsense.
Among other things: the spike in hospitalizations and deaths would have occurred multiple months ago - it would have started in Italy or the US or wherever rather than Wuhan, China. Don't forget, the Wuhan life cycle was 2 months - from November-ish to mid January.

Equally, the notion that lockdowns in the US are some nefarious government plot: again, nonsense.
Washington DC is not locked down. Neither are 43 of the 50 states.
The places that are locked down, are locked down due to decisions by the state governments.
More importantly, if this was really a gubmint plot to extend surveillance and tracking - they would be doing what Singapore and South KOrea are doing: sending hundreds and thousands of people around to see where every person exposed to nCOV is, and to find everyone these exposed people were in contact with. That would be an enormous net, indeed - a Kevin Bacon 7 degrees game but in the real world.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 23 2020 2:04 utc | 153

Godfree Roberts has a new one up at Unz:

Last Man Standing

Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 23 2020 2:05 utc | 154

@ Extra | Mar 22 2020 23:02 utc | 114

Not sure if this is what you are looking for. Here is a great site that compares the bias of multiple sources. MoA stands very positively.

Posted by: Nathan Mulcahy | Mar 23 2020 2:33 utc | 155

@ Bemildred | Mar 23 2020 2:05 utc | 154 with the Unz link....thanks for that

It confirms what I have been reading recently as well. It fits with the story about the lab folks in Seattle that found the virus looking around and were told to stop testing.

This virus may have strains that may be mutating or one is finally spreading enough to be impact the elderly with issues. Or this virus does effect people from different countries differently....I am sure hindsight will tell us.

So now it is even clearer to me that China/Russia are trying to put down the mad dog of late Western empire that may about to be hoisted on its own petard.

I will only feel societal progress when global private finance is curtailed.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Mar 23 2020 2:36 utc | 156

Silly me, I went to the WAshington Post article about Crimea that b linked to ---half expecting we are well into lions and lambs territory. Nothing doing! Same old barefaced lies throughout the piece, with helpful links therein to let us know why Russia is continually attacking states that are on its borders, etc. etc. and yada yada yada. They did admit that the foolish Crimeans love Russia, but it's only on account of the money, of course.

Washington, DC, thy name is mud and getting muddier. Gone are the days when a college-break Kelly girl such as I could get patted on the head in passing by an avuncularly kindly (then only a lawyer but still, my closest connection to power) Clark Clifford. Or submerge myself in the bowels of the Library of Congress and play vinyl recordings of Leadbelly himself and other lesser but authentic lights of the folk music era. (Said vinyls have probably been stomped to smithereens long since....ah, but there be ghosts down among the alligators....)

Seriously, that article is c-r-i-m-i-n-a-l, b! Did someone say they have a subscription?? You really shouldn't.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 23 2020 2:41 utc | 157

james 145

Going on cases where patient one is known, the virus spreads very rapidly, from one or two people to an epidemic in a month. This makes me doubt those early cases were coronavirus. Some nasty bug, but not this SARS-CoV-2 strain of coronavirus.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 23 2020 2:46 utc | 158

Posted by: psychohistorian | Mar 23 2020 2:36 utc | 156

Thank you, my pleasure. The discussion is interesting there too.

I don't have a theory about how we got here, I think the point is we don't really know, and the not knowing is not an accident.

But I've been watching it closely since it popped up in Wuhan there, for selfish reasons, I'm in the high risk group (as reported anyhow, I don't think it's all that clear what this bug might be capable of, since lack of surveillance, testing ...). I've been self-sequestering since late January and assuming it's been running around here since sometime late last year, just to err on the side of caution.

The long run consequences, blowback for what has happened (as Mr. Unz alludes to) do not depend on how we got here in any case, and that's my primary interest.

Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 23 2020 2:47 utc | 159

denk @150: we now have four possible scenario[s] ...

karlof1 @85 has another:

... the crisis manufactured by China

Which is sorta developed over bevin's thinking that this crisis is the end of neoliberalism.

<> <> <> <> <> <>

Well, I think that 1) the death of neoliberalism is greatly exaggerated and that 2) the belief that China "manufactured" the crisis is a logical fallacy as it posits that China foresaw a US failed response (something they could not have anticipated with any level of certainty).

"China manufactured" essentially supports the USA/Bolton false accusation that the US/Western response was crippled by China's withholding of information.

But US/West had the information they needed to prepare (even if they didn't have ALL/perfect info). It was the US/West failure to act on that info that created the "crisis", not China's simple recognition of a new virus and actions taken to halt the spread.

That failure to respond is the proverbial dog that didn't bark. It allowed a tragedy to occur that could stoke anti-Chinese sentiment much as Russiagate as stoked anti-Russian sentiment. That's why we see #ChinaLied-PeopleDied trending on twitter and calls for accelerating US-China 'decoupling'.

Aside: the unnecessary crisis in USA/West also allows for shenanigans like bailing out corporations in trouble (Boeing) and steering lucrative contracts to favored companies (Gilead Sciences).

<> <> <> <> <> <>

The Empire Games Covid-19


Covid-19 Fake CRISIS! Allows Government-assisted Profiteering: Chloroquine vs. Remdesivir


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 23 2020 3:02 utc | 160

Greived karlof1

I just read your comment Grieved and your take on karlof1's comments. I guess I hadn't picked up properly on what karlof1 was saying. If allowed to run unchecked, this virus will swamp hospitals.
A reasonably high percentage of those infected develop pneumonia. From what I can see, where there is only a few patient to a hospital, outcome is very good only the very old and the very week dying. Once numbers increase, so a hospital must divide its attention between more and more people with the same illness, the outlook starts to go down.
I very much agree with c1ue on the idea of this virus freely circulating in various places for some months before it is noticed. Without any containment this virus will swamp hospitals with pneumonia patients within six weeks.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 23 2020 3:08 utc | 161

I tried to post what I thought was a very informative summary of an interview by the head doc of Moscow's main Covid-19 facility on the last virus thread, but I managed to screw up the link. I think it's important, so I'll try again. Hope it works this time.

Posted by: J Swift | Mar 23 2020 3:11 utc | 162

S #146

United Russia MPs are drafting a law that will permit doctors to make diagnoses remotely (when it is possible to do so) to reduce threat to healthcare workers. Another measure is to send volunteers to the families of those healthcare workers who are busy 24/7 in COVID-19 hospitals. The volunteers will provide transport services, deliver food and essential goods, and help with household chores. (

Just a few of the tricks the barbaric Russians use to actually beat the Western master race at SARS-CoV-2 containment—not fudging the numbers as delusional Russia-hater Kasparov is alleging.

Posted by: S | Mar 23 2020 3:16 utc | 163

Thanks to Grieved @ 148 for the take on karlof1's analysis of China's role. You mightn't have been intending this, and certainly it is a stretch, but immediately sprang to my mind the very public instance of Russia/Assad immediately assenting to demolishing any chemical weaponry that they might have been stockpiling, in order to forestall the US attack back in the day. (In which, by the way, they succeeded.)

Hard to forget that one. And the Chinese are rather like elephants in that respect.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 23 2020 3:32 utc | 164

In case some posters here possess computers with fast CPUs or GPUs (graphics cards), you can help find cure for SARS-CoV-2 by installing and running the Folding@home application on your computer. See Coronavirus – What We’re Doing and How You Can Help in Simple Terms and [FAQ] SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) projects and FAH for details.

Posted by: S | Mar 23 2020 3:33 utc | 165

10 Lorries packed with medical equipment and medicine to fight Covid-19 stranded in Bulgarian border because of Trump sanction
Lorries packed with medical supplies destined for Iran, to fight Coronavirus, are being stopped by #Romania & #Bulgaria obeying US sanctions & economic warfare on Iran.
#Trump & his admin are genocidal war criminals who are evidently leading a rogue state.
Wathc the film, the driver speaks in Farsi, he said it is 3 days they are here, all trucks can go except these 10 lorries are destined to Iran can not go.

Posted by: arata | Mar 23 2020 3:42 utc | 166

Jackrabbit 160
**That failure to respond is the proverbial dog that didn't bark. It allowed a tragedy to occur that could stoke anti-Chinese sentiment much as Russiagate as stoked anti-Russian sentiment. That's why we see #ChinaLied-PeopleDied trending on twitter and calls for accelerating US-China 'decoupling'.**

Who's the most strident advocate for decoupling...
no less than Trump's economic czar, the rabid sinophobe
, Pete 'China wanna destroy us' Navarro !

Who gloated that 'this is an opportunity to bring back jobs
and revamp the supply chain'?
No less than the Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross !

So again...

Who's the motive ?

Who benefits ???

Posted by: denk | Mar 23 2020 3:44 utc | 167

@ 153 c1ue quote "The notion the nCOV was circulating around the world in October or November is nonsense." why?

@ 158 peter au... maybe.. i don't know.. i think we are missing a lot of information to make a conclusion..

@ 160 jr.. i agree with you here - "Well, I think that 1) the death of neoliberalism is greatly exaggerated and that 2) the belief that China "manufactured" the crisis is a logical fallacy as it posits that China foresaw a US failed response (something they could not have anticipated with any level of certainty)."

Posted by: james | Mar 23 2020 3:49 utc | 168

@ 162 j swift.. it worked this time. thanks.. i will read it.

@ 166 arata.. the link doesn't work... why doesn't romania/bulgaria show some spine? being a vassal state looks weak..

Posted by: james | Mar 23 2020 3:51 utc | 169

Seriously, that article is c-r-i-m-i-n-a-l, b! Did someone say they have a subscription?? You really shouldn't. [about approval of union with Russia in Crimea]

Posted by: juliania | Mar 23 2020 2:41 utc | 157

The article is still in contrast with the standard fare, namely, erasing EVERYTHING that does not fit the official narrative. Namely, "Russians and Ukrainians in Crimea overwhelmingly support the union with Russia (from context, well above 80%), and among 12% Tatar minority, the support increased from 39% to 58%. One could improve the presentation of the statistics, e.g. what was the percentage of those who regretted the end of Ukrainian control, given the usual 10+ percent of undecided, it could be in single digits. Of course, the usual blather was present.

Compare with the article on "humanitarian catastrophe in Idlib" that I read in NYT. Interview with some people with families affected by evacuation, not a word about Syrian/Russian motivations (pure evil?), and the following nugget: 12 trucks with goods of donated aid items had to wait through the entire weekend on the Turkish side to cross into Syria (Idlib). But why?? Turkey was not admitting new refugees so the Reyhanli crossing was not overwhelmed with westward traffic. And what was the eastward traffic that forced the aid trucks to wait? The reporter was actually in Reyhanli, so she could see something, we can only infer what.

And it was the exact time when Turkey send thousands of military vehicles into Idlib. But the official narrative totally erased military events with one exception: bombs that hit civilians. That is lamentable, but on each side there were more than 1000 casualties of armed personel, precise numbers not known. Existence of the military strife, motivations, causes, stakes -- not a word. Just evil unleashed by Putin and Assad. News about Ukraine follow very much the same pattern. Not a bias, but total erasure of the inconvenient.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Mar 23 2020 3:57 utc | 170

@ j swift.. good article.. others here would enjoy reading it.. thanks..

Posted by: james | Mar 23 2020 3:58 utc | 171

Lysias @ 98:

Sorry to read of your loss. My condolences to you and your family, and to your brother's wife and children.

You mention living in Washington DC. How far are you from Fort Detrick army base? You might have seen posts here and maybe other alt news sites about the US CDC shutting down a bioresearch lab there in August last year over safety lapses in which some pathogens escapes. Apparently the US team that competed at the World Military Games in October last year in Wuhan had been training no far from the base. The team was based at Wuhan Oriental Hotel, close to the Huanan Seafood Market, during the Games. The supposed trail of cause and effect seems a little too direct to be true but we are living in strange times.

Posted by: Jen | Mar 23 2020 3:59 utc | 172

J Swift 162

Thanks for reposting it. the Russian doctors give a clear picture of the disease caused by this coronavirus.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 23 2020 3:59 utc | 173

Posted by: james | Mar 23 2020 3:51 utc | 169

Thanks for reminding. Here is correct link

10 Lorries packed with medical equipment and medicine to fight Covid-19 stranded in Bulgarian border because of Trump sanction
Lorries packed with medical supplies destined for Iran, to fight Coronavirus, are being stopped by #Romania & #Bulgaria obeying US sanctions & economic warfare on Iran.
#Trump & his admin are genocidal war criminals who are evidently leading a rogue state.
Wathc the film, the driver speaks in Farsi, he said it is 3 days they are here, all trucks can go except these 10 lorries are destined to Iran can not go.

Posted by: arata | Mar 23 2020 4:00 utc | 174

@ 174 arata... thanks.. it is hard to know all the details from the twitter usual, key info is missing..

i note in the iran news outlet fars, no mention of this yet.. but this article gives comments from European Union Minister for Foreign Affairs Josep Borrell on this...
EU Blasts US Sanctions against Iranian People

Posted by: james | Mar 23 2020 4:17 utc | 175

Here is a Hudson article on a Debt Jubilee. Is it from the Wapo? It's dated 22/3/20

Posted by: bevin | Mar 23 2020 4:30 utc | 176

Another excellent link from ICH. An article by Michael McCaffrey, of which these concluding lines are a sample

"...In the Los Angeles Unified School District, 70% of all students are below the poverty line and rely on the school system for the majority of their meals. In the wealthiest country on the planet, that is absolutely disgraceful. The virus of structural economic inequality is a much more long-term and deadly problem than coronavirus, and the ruling class and their shameless lackeys in the press, have no interest in ever honestly addressing or acknowledging it.

"The corporate whores in Congress and the White House (of both parties) also gleefully inform Americans that universal, single-payer health care, which every other industrialized nation in the world already has, is a pipe dream and impossibility.

"They tell us they could never ever pay for something so decadent and luxurious as health care, but then they magically pull $1.5 trillion out of their gold-plated assholes in order to stave off a collapse of their own making. It is amazing how the Lords of Finance can make money miraculously appear in order to get things done when it is their exorbitant wealth on the line, and not ordinary Americans’ health and wellbeing.

"Coronavirus is a crisis that is revealing the ugly truth about America and the malignant character of its ruling class. The crisis is going to get worse before it gets better, but it eventually will get better. America, on the other hand, will only get much worse, with no hope that it is ever going to get better..."

Posted by: bevin | Mar 23 2020 4:36 utc | 177

It is evident that the Trump administration has chosen to destroy the virus research programs

(2) failed to fund and staff a wide range of programs critical to public health and pandemic response teams that would have been critical in avoiding this pandemic. Unfortunuately, the corrupt democratic leadership didn't give a dam as they were focused on the fake Russiagate narrative.

Trump, and his administration, have also been lying about most aspects of the pandemic resulting in unnecessary loss of life both among patients as well as the madical professionals.

More recently, "Several months before the coronavirus pandemic began, the Trump administration eliminated a key American public health position in Beijing intended to help detect disease outbreaks in China"

“Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
― W.B. Yeats

Posted by: krollchem | Mar 23 2020 4:55 utc | 178

Comparing Spanish flue to coronavirus.

The Spanish flu, also known as the 1918 flu pandemic,[1] was an unusually deadly influenza pandemic. Lasting from January 1918 to December 1920, it infected 500 million people—about a quarter of the world's population at the time.[2] The death toll is estimated to have been anywhere from 17 million[3] to 50 million, and possibly as high as 100 million, making it one of the deadliest epidemics in human history.[4][5]

Spanish Flue 25% infection rate.
Diamond Princess cruse ship 20% infection rate.

Spanish flue middle ground on estimated death rates. 10% of those infected died.
Coronavirus anything up to 10% of those infected depending on medical care.
1918 medical care for coronavirus. 10% would be a reasonable ball park figure.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 23 2020 5:26 utc | 179

Does anyone know of anyone doing population studies?

AFAIK there's no testing for anti-bodies in USA (which would show how many have had Covid-19 in the population).

Given the interest in "herd immunity" that would be an important statistic to have. Yet no one is looking at that?


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 23 2020 6:12 utc | 180

Jackrabbit - I think you might be beating your head against a brick wall - there seems to be some wilful cognitive dissonance among some commenters. It's interesting to see which side the regulars fall.

From krollchem - Something else to add to your list of 'suspicious' actions from a couple of threads ago -

I posted this the other day - from 2005 'Chloroquine is a potent inhibitor of SARS coronavirus'

Posted by: ted01 | Mar 23 2020 6:20 utc | 181

A March 19 article on the subject. China has an antibody test in production apparently.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 23 2020 6:28 utc | 182

@ sad canuck 140

Impressive how you divined my thoughts about Assad and Putin without my ever having mentioned them. Amazing too how you deduced I was not from Honolulu. But enough about "people of [my] ilk" and my game.

What about the ACLU statement, which I linked? Yes, the homeless problem is big and getting bigger. Should we support tougher police raids on the homeless, as did Gabbard, or put Reaganomics and Wall Street on trial?

What about Gabbard's position on BDS? Once again, she punches down, not up.

And you give Gabbard a pass on her cringe-worthy endorsement of Biden "since the rules require she support the winner"? The rules? The winner? You're OK with the DNC's rules and Joe Biden?

Posted by: Jay-Ottawa | Mar 23 2020 6:35 utc | 183

Jay-Ottawa @183

Gabbard volunteered to go to Iraq.

That condemns her.

Posted by: ted01 | Mar 23 2020 6:42 utc | 184

Congress attempting to pass $1.3 trillion emergency spending measure:

"Spending $500 billion without transparency oversight and accountability is a major challenge,” said Sen. Chris Coons, D-Del.

Schumer called it a “large corporate bailout with no protections for workers and virtually no oversight.”

A repeat of the 2007 Subprime Crisis where the Obama Administration demanded a $700 billion blank check in a matter days.

This is why this unnecessary "CRISIS!" was created. Follow the money: $1.5 trillion dollar liquidity facility for Wall Street (you don't need to know the terms of that handout); $500+ billion to bailout favored corporations (they were talking $50 billion originally); billions of dollars of purchases directed to favored drug and medical suppliers; and blaming China for the whole mess.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 23 2020 6:43 utc | 185

Jackrabbit @185

It's always the money.
Our money.

Posted by: ted01 | Mar 23 2020 6:46 utc | 186

While Iran is staggering  with devasting Covid-19, Pompeo and Robert C. O’Brien, and colleagues seeking a military attack to Iran. Pentagon and army declined and Trump decided to bomb Shiia Holy city Karbala instead.

See the  artical from New York Times.

Posted by: arata | Mar 23 2020 6:49 utc | 187


That is an interesting paper on chloroquine. Can be used as a preventive against coronavirus same as for malaria.
The original gin and tonic should do the job.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 23 2020 6:55 utc | 188

@james #169
If nCOV was already in Italy in October - why did the spike in deaths occur in this past month? i.e. 4 months later?
Wuhan went from a few suspicious deaths in November to a crisis in January. (1-2 monts).
The same would have happened anywhere that the nCOV was circulating freely, so early on.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 23 2020 7:04 utc | 189

Data point: a friend who literally has been going from foreign country to foreign country for 3-6 months, depending on visa limits, for several years as a low cost way to survive while working on his startup - was just denied a visa to Greece where he was planning to hide out from nCOV for 3 months. He is a US citizen - I guess no more automatic visa waivers?
Fortunately he had (been lucky) to get a Turkish visa so is hanging out there instead. Needless to say, tourists pretty scarce on the ground...

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 23 2020 7:09 utc | 190

Whatever you think of the seriousness of the virus or where it came from, natural or intentional, it is a distraction.

The main issue is that never in world history, has the western world been subject to a complete and designed economic collapse, the citizens put in house arrest in their homes and draconian laws are pulled up left and right. The consequence will be a new feudal society where the wealth gap will be 10x larger than it was before. The working class will be wiped out, the middle class will be wiped out and the super rich will become even richer. Civil liberties will be removed, our locations will be monitored via "smart" phones and if we are in the wrong place we will be fined or worse.

Freedom of the press was cancelled years ago, elections are totally fake, we will soon have no way to express our own opinions freely as everything is censored. Now they are coming for our money and our freedom to move around. They tell us to be afraid of our own hands not to mention we must fear our children and keep our distance.

Brave New World.

Posted by: Norwegian | Mar 23 2020 7:09 utc | 191

Bets on that Skripal dies of Coronavirus before he gets to talk.

And, on another topic, for those who can speak German:

Posted by: n47022 | Mar 23 2020 7:18 utc | 192

Quinine powder on ebay AU$100 per gram. Whoever has a good stock of quinine or chloroquine will be able to keep a decent income coming in.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 23 2020 7:19 utc | 193

@ arata | 166

If you haven’t seen this already, on Grayzone, Alfred de Zayas, former UN Special Rapporteur and law professor, invokes certain Nazi practices that are comparable to what the US government has been doing not only recently against Iran and Venezuela but also since many years and against many other countries.

Aaron Mate continues to do some excellent reporting.

Expert: US sanctions on Iran, Venezuela during pandemic could be genocidal | The Grayzone

Posted by: Nathan Mulcahy | Mar 23 2020 8:01 utc | 194

@ Peter AU1 | Mar 23 2020 7:19 utc | 193

Some people are about to be getting fleeced, at least so it seems.
Ebay also offers quinine sulfate dihydrate, though, not sure if it is available in the land of oz. Price is 258 US$/100g. 100g of sulfate is ~83g of quinine.

Same goes for quinine-sulfate capsules. Found some with 0.4g quinine-sulfate per capsule, 60 capsules costing ~30 AU$ at current exchange rates.

Posted by: Hmpf | Mar 23 2020 8:21 utc | 195

@Nathan Mulcahy | Mar 23 2020 8:01 utc | 194

Thanks for the link.

The Coronavirus Is Not a Reason to Lift Sanctions on Iran

Even today that USA itself is ravaged by Covid-19,  they are thinking to destroy Iran. by a surprise attack, or a 5th column,  See the articles on Bloomberg 23 Mar 2020.

 " ... members of the military and internal security militias might choose to stay home and care for sick relatives,..., than do the violence necessary to disperse restless crowds if protests begin anew."

Posted by: arata | Mar 23 2020 8:45 utc | 196

bigchin #67
Tom Lehrer and George Carlin are the right stuff for these days. They are among my go to people for cynical relief. Janis Joplin and her contemporaries are soothing in rough and extreme times as well.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 23 2020 8:53 utc | 197

@ n47022 | Mar 23 2020 7:18 utc | 192


Thanks for sharing.

Posted by: Nathan Mulcahy | Mar 23 2020 8:53 utc | 198

US$258 for 83 grams quinine looks cheap for todays prices.
I see some quinine sulfate dihydrate in 5 and 25 gram lots. AU$75 per 5 gram and AU$175 for 25 gram. expensive stuff when it is only 83% quinine.
I see the 100 gram lot is AU$485.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 23 2020 8:58 utc | 199

USA Military's Top Secret Plans If Coronavirus Cripples the Government

" Top Secret contingency plans already exist for what the military is supposed to do if all the Constitutional successors are incapacitated. Standby orders were issued more than three weeks ago to ready these plans, not just to protect Washington but also to prepare for the possibility of some form of martial law."

"On February 1, Defense Secretary Mark T. Esper signed orders directing NORTHCOM to execute nationwide pandemic plans. Secretly, he signed Warning Orders (the WARNORD as it's called) alerting NORTHCOM and a host of east coast units to "prepare to deploy" in support of potential extraordinary missions."

See the full article of Newsweek

Posted by: arata | Mar 23 2020 9:25 utc | 200

« previous page | next page »

The comments to this entry are closed.