Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 22, 2020

The MoA Week In Review - Open Thread 2020-22

Last week's posts at Moon of Alabama:

> Go hard right now. Order heavy social distancing. Get this thing under control.
Then, release the measures, so that people can gradually get back their freedoms and something approaching normal social and economic life can resume. <
Harry Moroz @hrmoroz - 15:35 UTC · Mar 20, 2020
For the average American the best way to tell if you have covid-19 is to cough in a rich person’s face and wait for their test results
> Overall, we rate Moon of Alabama Left Biased based on story selection and word choices that consistently favor progressives and Mixed factually due to anonymity associated with who runs the site. Otherwise, Moon of Alabama is well sourced to credible/factual information. <

Other issues:


Six years and $20 billion in Russian investment later, Crimeans are happy with Russian annexation - Washington Post!
Ukraine’s Zelensky wants to end a war in the east. His problem: No one agrees how to do it. - Washington Post

Use as open thread ...

Posted by b on March 22, 2020 at 14:21 UTC | Permalink

« previous page | next page »

H.Schmatz #96
and others looking for earliest instance.

Following White House directives?

The White House begins a propaganda plan to blame Beijing for the coronavirus pandemic.

China's rapid response was perhaps that of a country forewarned. Maybe they are always prepared given their enormous and tight packed masses. But I speculate on 'forewarned'.

They had top level scientists recently returned from research activities in the USA (maybe elsewhere too, perhaps Porton Down) but we do know their lead scientist in Wuhan was a globetrotter to USA Class 4 Labs. Then there was the Canadian gang that were marched out of the Winnipeg Class 4 Lab. They all knew what the west was up to and there would have been information coming from the Kazakhstan team. Russia may have threads into the Georgia Lab and perhaps some information from Porton Down or Salisbury where there was an extreme decontamination situation surrounding the Skripals.

The rush of infections in Wuhan may have come from a large number of infectious agents visiting for the Military Games. Perhaps China was keeping a close monitor in the event of shenanigans from perfidious Albion and his American chums. But they sure acted fast and stamped on it.

The information here of November and December extreme pneumonia incidences in the USA indicates perhaps simultaneous spread if not earlier than China. Is this why USA data is poor and post mortems being avoided?

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 23 2020 9:26 utc | 201

occupatio # 103 anony # 111

Professor Ramuzzi (at 4:19) It is very true. Do you know what happened? Certain family doctors, who have the best on the ground information, at least the most attentive ones, have told me recently that they were seeing truly grave cases of pneumonia, which we had never seen before. These pneumonia cases had nothing to do with typical flu pneumonia, they were interstitial pneumonias, they had to do CT, radiography, [to diagnose it], and this was happening in October, November, December. So this virus has been around a long time.

emphasis mine.

Thank you both for your post. Mighty interesting.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 23 2020 9:35 utc | 202

From the Fr local news:
France is testing ca 5000 per day vs 20,000 in Germany. They reserve the tests for medical staff in priority.
Hospitals are asking blood donors to come forward. The blood gathered is not tested for CV.
Chloroquine starts only to be used in Paris and given to positively tested MPs there and others in hospitals but not systematically throughout the territory. Lots of debates with pro- and con-physicians, some using the same arguments as b in his post, others saying that at least the product has been used for ages and its side effects are known and that they don't have anything else.
Someone called to described his situation. He was heading a camp with youth from all over france two weeks ago, came back home with symptoms; called the emergency number and had 9 of the 11 symptoms. they told him to stay home and take paracetamol and have rest (no chloroquine). A few days later his wife felt sick, she went to the hospital, was tested positive, and told to go home and quarantine too. no treatment either.
the latest scandals is about the stocks of masks. In 2012 there was a reserve of 2 billion masks. In 2013 a law was passed by the Soc gov to stop centralizing it and let hospitals and other facilities decide of the stock they need themselves. That is the reason the stocks were very low and the whole country is now asked to produce masks... that late?
The problem in France is that people are admitted to the hospitals ONCE they develop pulmonary symptoms (except the MPs, who got treated immedialtely with chloroquine apparently). This remains as today the official recommendation:
same on the radios every hour: if you cough or have fever, stay at home and call your GP; if you start to have respiratory problems, call the emergency number.
(well planned) cluster...k
i totally agree with the description of a better confinment method by 403 up thread.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 23 2020 9:45 utc | 203

vk @132 sez: "It doesn't need to be the most efficient or effective."

OK, sounds great. I have no problems with that. It still does not connect the premise of imperfection in the virus with the conclusion that it is not a bioweapon. Why must a bioweapon be "perfect"?

I know that you are far from stupid so I am assuming there is some logic here that I am overlooking, but as it stands I do not see the connection.

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 23 2020 9:47 utc | 204

For George, a recommendation you can take or leave. Maybe you should try to see if that works: get a very good honey, make sure it is the purest one you can find; use only non metallic spoons in it and take every evening ca 1 hour before sleeping one spoon. Only after that you can wash your teeth and no, you shouldn't drink water at all after you've taken it, so it can work on your tissues. Try for a couple of weeks and see if you get some improvement (and post the information please!). Honey has a strong healing effect on tissues (I know some will attack me for that statement but ...)

Posted by: Mina | Mar 23 2020 9:49 utc | 205

Terrifying video of a Spanish hospital

As if there were no hotels to requisition in the country
(sorry if it's not from a spanish account, it makes the thing confusing, so if someone knows how to extract the vid please pass on)

It is hard not to think that some Eu countries are consciously suppressing a chunk of their ederly population.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 23 2020 9:56 utc | 206

*Attention* to Walter.
I have something for You, which I want feedback on.
btw, my German-background includes a quite-a-few *walters*. thought you'd like to know. ;)

Posted by: Veritas X- | Mar 23 2020 10:20 utc | 207

uncle tungsten @201: "China's rapid response was perhaps that of a country forewarned."

A country forewarned as well as a country that recognized the virus as an attack by hostile adversaries.

I think the rapidity and effectiveness of China's reaction to the attack surprised the attackers. The location and timing of the attack suggests the intention of having the contagion spread to the entire country before effective measures could be taken against it.

What is particularly telling has been the response to the effectiveness of China's prompt countermeasures in the West's "Operation Mockingbird" mass media; first criticizing China's countermeasures to their attack then expressing disbelief in the numbers of fatalities being reported and the failure of the virus to spread nationwide. I believe that China was likely supposed to have been facing a few million casualties from the attack and having their economy paralyzed for years. The "Operation Mockingbird" mass media would then be able to use the epidemic as an example of the failure of socialism and to ideologically buttress capitalism for decades to come, and America's economic hegemony would be secured for at least a portion of this century. Instead it is America that has been economically paralyzed with much of the damage possibly being permanent.

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 23 2020 10:44 utc | 208

My request is, sooo important that, All @MoA can help-out by directing *Walter* to the post ^^^above.
Regards & Thanks, X-

Posted by: Veritas X- | Mar 23 2020 10:45 utc | 209

@William Gruff | Mar 23 2020 9:47 utc | 204

OK, sounds great. I have no problems with that. It still does not connect the premise of imperfection in the virus with the conclusion that it is not a bioweapon. Why must a bioweapon be "perfect"?

A perfect bioweapon is one that has plausible deniability.

Posted by: Norwegian | Mar 23 2020 11:08 utc | 210

William Gruff #208

Thank you and yes they appear to have immediately recognised the attack. I expect they were monitoring any USA or UK participant in the military games for symptoms. YNMS tweets of a US participant hospitalised with the virus in Wuhan during the games but does not cite a source even though he is challenged to do so.

The early appearance in Italy is odd but I guess there are US forces stationed all through Europe and around the Mediterranean; a viral load of bases.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 23 2020 11:09 utc | 211

A Medical Worker Describes Terrifying Lung Failure From COVID-19 — Even in His Young Patients

The description fits with cytokine storm. The global situation looks more and more everyday to be like 1918 with the additional problems of long and brittle supply chains and fast global transmission. To everyone here, please take care of yourselves and your loved ones.

Posted by: TJ | Mar 23 2020 11:11 utc | 212

First the good news; There is toilet paper in the shops again
Now the bad news; You can’t go to the shops.
OK, funnies aside (always a necessity in a war situation). The US military are realising that all their preparations are for the last war. The link to their present thinking, if you want your fill of military codes for “plans” and “war names” (also linked earlier by vk | Mar 23 2020 1:01 utc | 142 to a different site)

However, it is interesting to note, other than the expected-projected transfer of “inportant” people, such as Politicians, Military, they also included many of the other “termites” in our society (The ones that hollow out society from inside, oligarchs and other undeserving species). That they have been building and improving/enlarging their WWII bunkers, seriously, for many years. The final result will be that individual Military officers can take command locally and suppress (avoid) any form of civil liberty. (As long as they pretend it will be "temporary".)

So they didn’t think that a “Pandemic” could affect the military who are evidently “immune” to ordinary human defects. Who wudda thought….. (Note that in France I have been stopped-checked by a series of Police (two at a time), Customs officers (in sixes), and Military, as I crossed the border into Switzerland or walked the dog, NONE of whom were wearing a mask). Only NOW are they trying to work out what to do, if the war isn’t nuclear.

The other thought that crossed my mind is that what will probably happen, rather than having a centralised command, is that those officers will probably become “warlords” in their own right over small sectors of society. Call it “private enterprise”?

The big panic at the moment is of course in the financial world.- Many “big boys in the financial play-pen”, are now trying to get out. The Fed, in it’s wisdom, is trying it’s best to save them all (but not the world). They are also into “temporary” solutions that last, and last, and last.… The object seems to be that the Fed controls the total monetary system, giving away largesse by one hand, buying it up again with another, controlling the price at which it buys/sells with another, getting all the worlds assets in another…. You get the picture, a giant vampire squid was handicapped in comparison.

Warning; this is nearly fit for human comprehension if you understand any of the acronyms.
Is Merkel “isolated” in a Bunker not a hospital ?

Posted by: Stonebird | Mar 23 2020 11:56 utc | 213

@213 Stonebird

It would not be “private enterprise” it would be “Landlocked Privateer”.

Posted by: TJ | Mar 23 2020 12:07 utc | 214

TJ | Mar 23 2020 12:07 utc | 214

Yup. I must get out of that old habit of thinking we are (still) in a civilian society.

Correction to my post 213. Strictly speaking they were not "Military" that I met, but were Swiss "Civil Service" (butter instead of guns). probably considered as "expendables".

Posted by: Stonebird | Mar 23 2020 12:41 utc | 215

Never let a crisis go to waste. Under cover of Coronavirus, US troops leaving Iraq

Posted by: Anunnaki | Mar 23 2020 12:54 utc | 216

Please mourn for the Brazilian people, toll the bells from your church towers.
One of best public men has just declared, and put the bullet on cross hairs, with infalible precision:
"it is too hard for us to have simultaneously to deal with a virus and a WORM."
Repeat 'deal with a virus and a worm'
The world knows whom he was talking about.

Posted by: augusto | Mar 23 2020 13:31 utc | 217

@ Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 23 2020 9:47 utc | 204

The ideal bioweapon would kill the most people of the enemy's nation possible with the least of your and your allies' peoples possible. That implies a much higher mortality rate and a much more efficient infectiousness rate.

In other words, you want a virus that can infect a human being the fastest possible and kill him not instantly, but fast enough so he can infect his neighbors but not go very far. That way, you can create a radius of devastation big enough to cover your enemy's territory, but small enough so it doesn't reach you and your allies' territories.

That's certainly not SARS CoV-2's pattern, which fits perfectly with a periodical pandemic. It has the pattern of a virus that "wants" to infect the most humans possible in the most vast territory possible. It has a relatively low mortality rate, it has a long incubation period (this is essential), it is transmissible while on incubation period (also essential), it attacks the most disposable specimens of modern society first (i.e. old people) so that global governments become hesitant about how to act, it survives for long periods in most modern sufarces (cardboard, plastic, metal). It evolved almost perfectly to our modern society, it is the ultimate anti-globalization virus.

It would be irrational for the Americans to develop an anti-globalization virus - as it is the country which benefits the most from it. It also definitely doesn't fit Trump's military doctrine (to besiege China with an "arc of freedom").

Posted by: vk | Mar 23 2020 13:32 utc | 218

@ Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 23 2020 9:26 utc | 201

If China was forewarned, it would've neutralized patient zero. That evidently wasn't the case.

That was so not the case that the issue was first tackled by the local government, the central government only being aware of the fact when it was already an epidemic (it even caused the "dr. Li imbroglio", which is being used until nowadays by the West as an anti-communist piece of propaganda).


Also forgot to mention in my previous post: a bioweapon must also be portable - which is definitely not the SARS CoV-2's case (think about Anthrax, which is a white powder that can be managed by humans in many flexible ways).

Posted by: vk | Mar 23 2020 13:37 utc | 219

Target Iran remains Target Iran, probing the AD is ongoing.

Seyed Mohammad Marandi
March 20 - Iran's Air Defense Force gave a final warning to F-18 approaching Iranian airspace. After the pilot was told the jet would be engaged by Iran's air defense missiles, he immediately identified himself & changed course. The Trump regime knows that Iran will not hesitate.
Quote Tweet
Abas Aslani
· 17h
Iranian Army's Air Defense Force, on March 20, warned an intruding F-18 fighter jet to get away from the country's border after it approached the #Iran's airspace on Friday morning. Iranian defense officials have not revealed to which country the fighter belonged to. - state TV

(Wally recalls "“US pilots seemed weaker to me than the German aces. The Germans were more willing to get into a fight, while the Americans tried to avoid battle. In Korea, we proved to them that we were at least not inferior to them in terms of training and skill, and even surpassed them in terms of our aircraft,” the pilot added." (sputnik "LAST SURVIVING ACE RUSSIAN KOREAN WAR")

Posted by: Walter | Mar 23 2020 13:49 utc | 220

: vk | Mar 23 2020 13:32 utc | 218
The statement: "The ideal bioweapon would kill the most people of the enemy's nation possible with the least of your and your allies' peoples possible. That implies a much higher mortality rate and a much more efficient infectiousness rate." seems to be sound, true, but I think your assumption includes that "your people" are not your enemy.

Look at the reality in the US and EU... The people, at least the poor, do seem to be, in reality, the enemy of the ruling class.

In the instance it may be like porno - everybody knows who gets it and more or less how. The "ringers" do Not Look Empty in porno. They arn't's porno.

The screwing from CV(x) is the's a not looking empty because the ringer is full.

But it's still the con. We're going to chit ourselves in fear that They will do whatever they want.

see RT > "I am an American constitutional lawyer – and I see our government using Covid-19 to take away our fundamental rights"


Posted by: Walter | Mar 23 2020 13:59 utc | 221

re information_agent | Mar 23 2020 13:45 utc | 220
Why just have a go at one of the miscreants when there is about half a dozen types endlessly repeating the same arguments. Over & over no one allowing anyone else to have the last word, a situation which to my mind indicates that this isn't about facts, it is all ego, this cluster of aged schoolchildren go on & on boring the shit outta the rest of us who have decided our own take on the viruses origins and have no intention of changing our opinion merely because one point of view has temporarily managed to hold sway until the 'other' side manages to summon up some fresher unvalidated opinion.

Posted by: A User | Mar 23 2020 14:03 utc | 222

@ Posted by: information_agent | Mar 23 2020 13:45 utc | 220

Except for the fact that the financial markets are collapsing, making the capitalist class to lose more than USD 80 billion so far.

In an act of pure desperation, the Fed has announced unilimited bond purchases.

One more week and Wall Street will be begging for mercy.


@ Posted by: Walter | Mar 23 2020 13:59 utc | 222

You forget the fact that this "the whole working class is the enemy, therefore SARS CoV-2 is a bioweapon" is just the left-wing of the First World's opinion. From the right-wing, the argument is exactly the opposite: that the SARS CoV-2 is a Chinese/communist bioweapon designed to collapse Western Civilization (i.e. capitalism). You would've to look with a magnifying glass to find individuals who are really happy with this pandemic.

I'm paying attention to both circles of this debate. I don't only read the MoA.

Pandemics are natural to human civilization. After the COVID-19, there will be another one between 2090-2120. They will continue to come back until humanity is extinct. It is simply part of the objective reality: you can't attribute some kind of major or transcendental meaning to pandemics, if you do, you aren't more enlightened than the Roman citizen who thought the eruption of the Vesuvius was a punishment of the gods or a sign of the end of the world. It doesn't matter if you corporify God in the shape of an evil CIA agent, the logic is the same.

Posted by: vk | Mar 23 2020 14:28 utc | 223

Comrade Brother Meyssan has related ideas about whoz on first...

"Returning to the Covid-19 epidemic and the way governments are reacting to it, Thierry Meyssan stresses that the authoritarian decisions of Italy and France have no medical justification. They contradict the observations of the best infectiologists and the instructions of the World Health Organization."

@ Covid-19: propaganda and manipulation (voltaire dot org)

"...It is not known at this time whether tycoons deliberately spread panic about Covid-19, making this vulgar epidemic seem like the "end of the world”. However, one distortion after another, governments have become involved. Of course, it is no longer a question of selling advertising screens by frightening people, but of dominating populations by exploiting this fear...."

Not known, bald and obvious...
It's a read ringer and a real con job. Phuckin Global.

Posted by: Walter | Mar 23 2020 14:35 utc | 224

US Federal Reserve just circumvented democratic control by providing the financial support to the markets and US companies directly.

Will those in Congress that wanted conditions put on the aid provided to companies have any complaints? Or will they just roll over?


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 23 2020 14:50 utc | 225

: vk | Mar 23 2020 14:28 utc | 225 Fair enough. But...when vk writes:

"You forget the fact that this "the whole working class is the enemy, therefore SARS CoV-2 is a bioweapon" is just the left-wing of the First World's opinion. " I think you missed my meaning. I see what's before my eyes. And have no idea about "left" or "right" opinions.

I also read widely. It's not an opinion from the air, it's what my lyin' eyes see...a multitude of "useless eaters", the full prisons, the shootin' gunslinging cops, the things people say... And who could deny that class conflict is basic to the US system from the first day?

This is not mere opinion. Is observed fact. I even listened last year when a local cop ran after a man and murdered him...cop o tronic scanner in the midnight hous of Summer... Cop's still packing that Glock. He killed a nutzlossen mann, no worries! Just like combat.

I do not, of course, claim that the CV is aimed at the nutzlossen volk in US as at a "target", they are however, the natural enemy of the people who rule them. This seems self-evident, and explicit, and really unassailable. Oh Bummer even called the "pitchforks" and the Female H called them "deplorables".

Disposable collateral losses in The Big Con that colonizes the CV affair. If from Mars make no difference.

Best, Wally

Posted by: Walter | Mar 23 2020 14:50 utc | 226

US Orders to Utilise Country's 16 Supercomputers to Find Cure for Coronavirus

If the SARS CoV-2 was an American bioweapon, then why doesn't the USG already have the cure?

Aditionally, if it is so easy to create a brand new virus, then why is the USG summoning 16 supercomputers to undo it?


‘We want to hold the Olympics, but we're not so stupid to expect people to come amid pandemic' – Japan’s Olympic chief

In the typical fashion of the Japanese neofascist ideology (never break the myth of leadership infallibility), the 2020 Olympics bigwig is now blaming the people for the inevitable postponement of the 2020 Tokyo Olympics.

2020 Games in doubt as Abe hints at postponement for first time

It's all a kabuki theater. The Japanese government knew the 2020 Olympics wouldn't happen as scheduled since the Diamond Princess docked in Tokyo. They are just adjusting the facts so they can forge a narrative with plausible deniability.

My bet is: when the postponement (I say "postponement" because the Japanese government will never announce its cancellation) is officially anounced, the COVID-19 cases will miraculously skyrocket in Japan - because then there wouldn't be any motive to freeze the numbers.


@ Posted by: Walter | Mar 23 2020 14:35 utc | 226

Your first source is objectively false, since the WHO not only recommends total lockdown - it even states total lockdown is not enough.

Posted by: vk | Mar 23 2020 14:50 utc | 227

Update on South Korea:

S. Korea confirms 64 new coronavirus infections, total at 8,961. Death toll hits 118

Of the 64 new cases, 24 are in Daegu and two are in North Gyeongsang, the KCDC said. The total number of confirmed cases in Daegu and North Gyeongsang, the two epicenters of the virus outbreak here, stood at 6,411 and 1,256, respectively.

My hypothesis is getting stronger and stronger. Cases in South Korea plummeted for the simple reason cases in Daegu and North Gyeongsang have plummeted. Those two regions historically made up 75% of the new daily cases since the end of the second week of March.

However, that means cases elsewhere kept at the same level, even rising a little bit:

Other major provinces and cities have also reported some infections, with Seoul reporting six additional cases. The total number of imported virus cases rose by 13 to 47.

Seoul, Incheon and Gyeonggi Province, which surrounds Seoul and Incheon, saw their new daily infections rise by 20 to 721 on Sunday.

Those numbers indicate that, so far, the situation is manageable: Seul is still relatively safe (only six new cases). Most of the 47 cases are imported (which means they are probably falling on Incheon).

South Korea was extremely lucky by the fact its main international airport is, miraculously, not in its main city (Seul), but in the far-distanced Incheon (extreme northwest of the country).

The situation is still worrying, though:

With unknown virus patients without immediate symptoms apparently causing significant numbers of infections, the government has called for people to avoid nonessential gatherings in crowded places.

This corroborates with my hypothesis that the South Korean government only has true authority in the Daegu and North Gyeongsang regions, where it was able to enforce a full lockdown (with the blessing of the chaebol families, probably). Outside its two regions, it is laissez-faire, a la the Western countries. It simply don't know how many cases there really are in Seul, and it is literally praying Daegu really was ground zero.

Posted by: vk | Mar 23 2020 15:02 utc | 228


As I see it, the peasants are between a rock and a hard place. Many peasants seem to downgrade one of these to remove the feeling of being between the rock and the hard place. On one side an elite that will screw them into the ground, and on the otherside a particularly nasty bug. If the peasant are going to wear the bug to get out from between the rock and the hard place - the elite and the bug then it is best to understand exactly what this bug is rather than playing the blind monkey.
If they bug were not real, then we would not see every government in the world acting as they have done. China's moves to stop the bug were not for show or geo-political purposes. Quite likely if allowed to run free and overwhelm medical, death toll would be similar percentage to spanish flue, though a different risk group.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 23 2020 15:14 utc | 229

Regarding what the WHO recommended in January:

As posted at babble by kropotkin1951 on January 30, 2020: "But WHO officials also warned that drastic restrictions in travel and trade were not necessary, and said they opposed any move to close borders with China or restrict Chinese travellers’ access. Though they did not mention Russia by name, their remarks came soon after Moscow announced it was closing sections of the Russia-China border and suspending visas for Chinese visitors.

“Some countries have taken questionable measures concerning travellers,” said Didier Houssin, chair of the WHO’s emergency committee. Those measures, he said, “should not constitute an example to follow”.

Also see the Globe and Mail of February 3, column entitled "Research supports Canada's decision to reject a coronavirus travel ban" there are a few early quotes: "“Travel bans typically don’t work because if people want to travel, they find a way to do so,” said Steven Hoffman, director of the Global Strategy Lab and a professor of global health at York University. “That actually undermines the public-health response because it makes it harder to track cases in an outbreak.”
Isaac Bogoch, an infectious disease specialist at Toronto’s University Health Network, agreed that, in the past, travel restrictions have only “slowed down the inevitable."

Posted by: spudski | Mar 23 2020 15:22 utc | 230

vk @218: "The ideal bioweapon would..." followed by entirely unsubstantiated assumptions.

Is the 5.56mm NATO round that is used in most American assault weapons the most lethal possible ammunition? No, of course not, so you are starting with a demonstrably false assumption about what weapons designers' motivations and priorities are when designing weapons systems. There are a great many weapons employed by the empire and by others throughout history that are not chosen with the goal of maximum lethality in mind. Indeed, oftentimes a weapon is chosen for no other reason than the fact that it is conveniently available, as is the case with a handy rock or tree branch. Does the fact that a rock cannot kill the maximum number of people in the enemy's nation preclude its use in a conflict? According to your logic a rock cannot be a weapon.

Let use continue to explore this, what I consider weird, logic. Let us assume that ISIS headchoppers break into a BSL-4 lab somewhere in the world and steal samples of a virus that researchers are working on to hopefully some day use as a delivery mechanism for gene therapy. Unfortunately the virus at present remains as deadly as ebola and as communicable as influenza, but it is not a weapon. It is just research material. So when the headchoppers spray it around the Metro in Rio de Janeiro, it is not then a bioweapon, right? It is just research material being distributed for free, I suppose.

When angry citizens show up at city hall carrying pitchforks and torches, I assume you would say that they are unarmed? No weapons in sight?

Unless I am misunderstanding you, I believe your definition of "weapon" is much too narrow to be useful in any sort of discussion of geopolitical conflict. I suggest a quick review of things that Putin has weaponized, and then perhaps spend a few moments looking around your immediate vicinity and see if using your imagination you can spot any items that could serve as weapons if you happened to have need of one. You might be surprised by how many things that were not designed to kill the maximum number of people in the enemy's nation that you can come up with.

I suppose that the problem I was having understanding your point is that our definitions of "weapon" are radically different. For you a "weapon" must be something designed to kill the maximum number of people in the enemy's nation, while I would consider a rock, some smallpox-contaminated blankets, economic sanctions, envelopes of purely natural anthrax, or even an angry badger if accurately thrown, to be weapons, even if none of them were deliberately designed to kill at all. If we work with your definition then your argument is correct. If we go with mine then your argument is illogical.

I believe my definition of "weapon", and thus "bioweapon", might be the one more commonly used. I think it might facilitate discussion if you were to announce in advance when you intend to narrow the definition of key terms in that discussion to uselessness.

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 23 2020 15:24 utc | 231

@227 continued ...

Some Democratic Party demands for the bailout money seem designed to impede the legislation so as to force the Fed to act.

One Party, two flavors.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 23 2020 15:26 utc | 232

Since any news that is unrelated to the virus has been banned from the MSM, I guess we have to look for them

and for the virus archive

Posted by: Mina | Mar 23 2020 15:27 utc | 233

Uncle T @ 201
FWIW adding to the views -

Reuters Exclusive: U.S. axed CDC expert job in China months before virus outbreak

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Several months before the coronavirus pandemic began, the Trump administration eliminated a key American public health position in Beijing intended to help detect disease outbreaks in China, Reuters has learned.

The American disease expert, a medical epidemiologist embedded in China’s disease control agency, left her post in July, according to four sources with knowledge of the issue. The first cases of the new coronavirus may have emerged as early as November, and as cases exploded, the Trump administration in February chastised China for censoring information about the outbreak and keeping U.S. experts from entering the country to help.

“It was heartbreaking to watch,” said Bao-Ping Zhu, a Chinese American who served in that role, which was funded by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, between 2007 and 2011. “If someone had been there, public health officials and governments across the world could have moved much faster.”
Zhu and the other sources said the American expert, Dr. Linda Quick, was a trainer of Chinese field epidemiologists who were deployed to the epicenter of outbreaks to help track, investigate and contain diseases.[.]

and a convenient help for the agenda and the silent war in the treatment against COVID-19

It's the Coronacrisis =-- as in Cri$i$.

Posted by: Likklemore | Mar 23 2020 15:28 utc | 234

@232 spudski

Chris Whitty over here in the UK, who is the Department of Health and Social Care's chief scientific adviser, chief medical officer (CMO) England and the UK government's chief medical adviser takes the same view. Of course no death certificate issued will say the cause was open borders let alone government malfeasance!

Posted by: TJ | Mar 23 2020 15:38 utc | 235

vk @219

I did not notice where uncle tungsten @201 claimed that the Chinese where forewarned which one of the 1.44 billion people in their country would be infected. Perhaps you are having difficulty conceptualizing how big China is and are assuming that there were only a handful of possible individuals that the CIA gangsters could choose between for their attack?

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 23 2020 15:48 utc | 236

Google coronavirus tracker

The numbers are starting to form patterns. Countries with no outbreaks have a death rate at between 1 and 3% of confirmed cases. South Korea which quickly brought an out break under control has a very low death rate of just over 1%
Uncontrolled spread and death rate is much higher. US and Germany are the anomalies here with fast spread and high numbers of confirmed cases but exceptionally low death rate.
Although it hit Asia first, main spread now is western Europe and US. Something to do with liberties and freedoms I guess.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 23 2020 15:51 utc | 237

Whatever the intent, I think it is readily apparent:
1) The virus is man made.
2) It is on track to be the most effective weapon ever against the unbeatable foe.

This has accelerated to US path to bankruptcy and termination of dolor hegemoney.
This may succeed in collapsing the empire and allow to world to resume its diverse development.
All the troops may have to come home.

It is fun yet terrifying to watch the confused spasms of the dying beast:

Posted by: jared | Mar 23 2020 16:10 utc | 238

Posted by: jared | Mar 23 2020 16:10 utc | 240

"It is fun yet terrifying to watch the confused spasms of the dying beast"

Yep, needs Monty Python.

Alistair Crooke has a new one up at Strategic Culture:

‘Helicopter Money’: This Is the Game-Changer Geo-Politically

As near as I can figure Mnuchin and the FED are arguing over who gets to control the distribution of the helicopter money, and there are boatloads of it under discussion, bailouts for all.

Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 23 2020 16:18 utc | 239

@ 190 c1ue.. okay.. i see your logic.. thanks.. i am still not 100% convinced though..

Posted by: james | Mar 23 2020 16:21 utc | 240

I think the prospect of helicopter money was dangled in front of the little people to get their attention. Now they are worried about the important people. Bailouts are being delivered and they don't want to devalue the dollar and remove incentive to work. Everybody back in the pool.

I think it will be dollars on a string. And just enough to make them forget about the bailouts for the wealthy.

Posted by: jared | Mar 23 2020 16:24 utc | 241

@james #242
It isn't necessary to agree - but it is necessary to explain.
If nCOV was truly around since October - why weren't the hospitals filling up in January and February?
How can nCOV behavior from February to now (end of March) be so different than October through December?
Why weren't these Italian doctors getting sick from nCOV as they are now, since they apparently recall firsthand working with these "odd" pneumonia patients?
Sorry, but the lack of consistency is glaring.
Secondly, there is nothing so unreliable as human recollection of past events.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 23 2020 16:31 utc | 242

Well, they will try for sure, but I think events will overtake them, and it won't take very long either. As Crooke says, helicopter money will not fix the supply problem, the collapse of once booming businesses like travel, lots of service jobs are gone for a long time if not for good. And no reason to think the people in charge understand the problem, or would care if they did. Hard to predict what will happen, easy to predict it will not be good.

Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 23 2020 16:32 utc | 243

for some slightly better news, daily-new-cases in the heavily affected euro nations finally showed a decrease in the past day. This would be as expected, approximately 1-2 weeks after social isolation was implemented. (keep in mind serious distortions in the daily-new-cases metric, and inconsistencies between countries, since some countries have severe shortage of tests)


NY city and state: hospitals quietly panic about supply of PPE. Only few days left in some places [anecdotal reports] with public announcements of help from Federal and State govt, who scramble to organize it. I reckon the demand for hospital capacity is still about 3 weeks from its peak in NY city/ state! Much confusion, and questionable policies such as neither testing nor quarantining exposed hospital staff! This results in concerns about absenteeism/quitting among lower ranks of hospital staff - such jobs are low in the social hierarchy in NYC. (aides, techs, orderlies, admin, cleaners etc). If they feel like they're in moral danger, the pay is not nearly good enough for that. I imagine we may see national guard etc stepping in.

However, the public overall seems to be taking it quite calmly, in my opinion. Also, specifically for the so-called 100% employees stay at home order, in NY state - there is quite a long list of exempt business categories. (of which i discovered i am in one. (state but not city, but still...bleh).

For all the failings of the response here, i would estimate that our first wave of infections will peak sometime in mid April, with deaths following 2 weeks later probably. Unfortunately, there is such a large amount of infected people in NYC now that the whole country will get little local outbreaks until it has saturated everywhere.

Posted by: ptb | Mar 23 2020 16:50 utc | 244

Posted by: jared | Mar 23 2020 16:24 utc | 243

Small-businesses asked not to fire workers as government set to offer forgivable loans

See, this is Mnuchin trying to address the problem, but nothing he can do will bring consumers back to those businesses any time soon, because of the pandemic, because habits will change, because people will start saving instead of spending, start looking for security, not sensation. Supply chains will be restructured, unicorns will collapse, lots of formerly hot businesses like fracking will collapse, lots of food service jobs poof, like a snowball rolling downhill, growing as it goes. Demand destruction has been ongoing for some time now, cash will not bring it back.

Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 23 2020 16:54 utc | 245

@ 244 c1ue.. i see and appreciate your logic... i just don't think logic is fool proof... it reminds me of the nassim taleb idea that no one thought a black swan existed until they came across one... well, maybe that isn't the best example here, but it is the best i have at the moment!

Posted by: james | Mar 23 2020 16:58 utc | 246

@ Bemildred | Mar 23 2020 16:54 utc | 247

They could have helped themselves by providing the public with credible information and guidance, but instead they tried B/S - Trumping saying he thought a solution has been found while doctor (Fauci) standing next to him is saying "maybe not".

It's too late. I dont believe any of them and cannot find credible information.

My wife is leaving her job today because the were not taking it seriously, had not taken precautions and had not instructed workers on recommended safety steps (and workers who have not already left make a joke of it).

I am working from home, but will not return until problem is under control.
Also my emplyer (a small business) has taken minimal, token safety measures (they don't have a clue) - though I give them credit for letting many of us work from home.

Posted by: jared | Mar 23 2020 17:10 utc | 247

c1ue @ 153

Equally, the notion that lockdowns in the US are some nefarious government plot: again, nonsense.

Washington DC is not locked down. Neither are 43 of the 50 states.

The places that are locked down, are locked down due to decisions by the state governments.
More importantly, if this was really a gubmint plot to extend surveillance and tracking - they would be doing what Singapore and South KOrea are doing: sending hundreds and thousands of people around to see where every person exposed to nCOV is, and to find everyone these exposed people were in contact with. That would be an enormous net, indeed - a Kevin Bacon 7 degrees game but in the real world.

As I have repeatedly said, there is more than one thing going on here. At minimum, there is the virus and the engineered economic crash. Its so easy to focus on one factor and miss equally important, but "orthogonal" factors.

Any "plot" there is is about guaranteeing that the virus countermeasures crash the economy in a way that Wall St. can dodge responsibility for another 12 years of bubble blowing. The countermeasures biggest impact is economic. People are being thrown out of work en masse. That is not a lockdown, but it is a countermeasure. More than half of America lives hand to mouth. They are facing eviction and homelessness. Neoliberal healthcare is notoriously unaffordable, even by those with some insurance.

Is it possible to hold two thoughts at once: the virus is a serious medical issue; and the economic shutdown is a serious economic and social issue? In any response by you, I ask not to be accused of "wanting people to die". The economic situation will rapidly result in deaths from mayhem, bankruptcy, etc.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 23 2020 17:16 utc | 248

Posted by: jared | Mar 23 2020 17:10 utc | 250

Yep, you get the picture, good luck.

Trump is a moron. Pompeo is making a spectacle of himself too.

Then you have China:

Chinese attitudes shift as a result of coronavirus: survey

They aren't going to rely on helicopter money to keep their economy running, they will nationalize anybody that gets in the way.

Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 23 2020 17:21 utc | 249

@205 Mina, thank you so much, so kind of you. I'll try it soon, George

Posted by: George | Mar 23 2020 17:21 utc | 250

Peter AU1 @ 179

The Spanish flu, also known as the 1918 flu pandemic,[1] was an unusually deadly influenza pandemic. Lasting from January 1918 to December 1920, it infected 500 million people—about a quarter of the world's population at the time.[2] The death toll is estimated to have been anywhere from 17 million[3] to 50 million, and possibly as high as 100 million, making it one of the deadliest epidemics in human history.[4][5]

Spanish Flue 25% infection rate.
Diamond Princess cruse ship 20% infection rate.

Spanish flue middle ground on estimated death rates. 10% of those infected died.

Where are those stats from? You give no source.

It is an established fact that there is an effort to rewrite the history of the 1918 flu to make it sound less deadly; and a corresponding propaganda push to exaggerate the stats of the covid outbreak. Here's one article:

Wikipedia Slashes Spanish Flu Death Rate From 20% to 2% is a quite a drop. What’s going on?

According to this, the original cited death rate was 20%, not the 10% you assert with no evidence.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 23 2020 17:31 utc | 251

H.Schmatz, Karlofi #85

"Altogether, at least five long suppressed truths related to the massive frauds engaged in by the Outlaw US Empire are exposed by the crisis manufactured by China--although when it comes to the question of human health and wellbeing, it certainly IS a crisis"

After a careful reading of Karlofi's original post IMO he's clearly saying that China was well-prepared to fight the current outbreak and was totally justified given the seriousness to public health. Also implied is that China knew the West was unprepared, Trump would call it a hoax, etc. etc. and there was a good chance it would suffer huge consequences. And that's indeed was happened. By saying China manufactured the crisis Karlofi implies tha China knew exactly what it was doing.

Posted by: krypton | Mar 23 2020 17:31 utc | 252

We are headed for the Debt Jubilee one way or the other. Michael Hudson has a new essay about it: A Debt Jubilee is the Only Way to Avoid a Depression

But Dear Leaders will never allow it to happen in an organized way. Just a week ago when the Fed announced, "Free Unlimited Money For Rich F'ers", I wondered, if the cost of money goes to zero, won't the demand go to infinity? The whole concept of free money sounds implausible, but that didn't stop the almighty Fed, which is now faced with the demand for dollars headed for infinity.

So Great Depression II Part II (Part I started in 2008) it is, and arriving with terrifying speed. Final destruction of the dollar will be later. Or maybe sooner.

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Mar 23 2020 17:33 utc | 253

And that's indeed what happened. By saying China manufactured the crisis Karlofi implies that China knew exactly what it was doing.

Posted by: krypton | Mar 23 2020 17:34 utc | 254

Norwegian @ 191

Great comment. You packed it all in very succinctly.

Yes, TPTB don't care if a few million proles die in their quest to grab all the money and all the power.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 23 2020 17:35 utc | 255

Today's Global Times editorial notes the attempt by the Outlaw US Empire's BigLie Media to change the narrative back to the pre-pandemic China bashing and asks an understandable question: Is this being done to cover up the Outlaw US Empire's lack of effort and terrible response to the crisis?

"The current epidemic situation in the US is extremely severe. The talking points are obviously shifting the focus of public attention. We would like to ask a few questions of the US government."

A series of questions follows and concludes by making the following point:

"We call on the US to immediately recalibrate its China policy, putting aside geopolitics and work with China to combat the fatal virus. China and the US, as the two biggest global powers, should contribute to inspire the global virus fight and save the world from the current plight."

I know few within the Empire read Global Times and are thus unaware of how badly the PR War's going with several of its main adversaries--Cuba, Russia & China--going to impacted nations to fight the crisis, while the Empire continues its illegal sanctions and wars. And this isn't the first call by the Chinese government to work together to solve the crisis, calls that have come daily over the past two weeks at minimum.

As for China being "forewarned," yes absolutely! When looking at the numerous plague-like infestations its had to combat since 2000, China pumped up its research into such diseases and developed the highly effective response protocols we've witnessed. Undoubtedly, China also informed Russia of its concerns and efforts, and it seems clear they've been working in tandem on this issue for awhile.

IMO, one of the most damning items of evidence is the attempted order to stop testing for COVID-19, particularly of past flu/pneumonia-like fatalities that was refused by Dr. Chu in Washington. The reason seems obvious when paired with Trump's tweets--as I wrote earlier, to mask its presence within the Empire. IMO, the reaction made by TrumpCo was akin to that of a man caught urinating in public by a cop who then writes him a ticket--utter befuddlement and embarrassment in trying to come up with a workable excuse. Please examine Trump's behavior regarding the stock market--which he equates as 100% equivalent with overall economic performance--as it approached 30K in late February, and afterward as the Ponzi Scheme began to collapse. Again as I wrote earlier, it appears COVID-19's mortality rate was deemed to be little more than flu despite its novel nature and communicability, and like the flu would never become a big economic threat to the Empire as a crisis wasn't supposed to develop--just a wringing of hands along with words lamenting the seriousness of this season's flu. There was never any thought given to the possibility China would declare a crisis, lock itself down thus shutting down global supply chains. Saudi--MbS--was also shocked at the prospect of oil price tanking and thus sought a deal with Russia to curtail production; but he was persuaded this would be the perfect opportunity to undercut the Fracking Ponzi Scheme, and thus went along with the pseudo price war.

When South Korea emulated China's identification and containment efforts and shut itself down, the model for the WHO was set, a pandemic declared, and TrumpCo totally wrongfooted--also Bojo in UK. Likely, tens of thousands of innocent people will now live that otherwise would've died if Trump and Bojo had allowed what's clearly a CIA/Mi-6 plan to proceed--and the only reason why is because China declared it a crisis and told WHO.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 23 2020 17:50 utc | 256

@james #248
You have multiple issues confused.
Taleb's claim to fame was betting on reality vs. financial models which - in his estimation - were greatly underestimating the actual risk. The term "black swan" is supposed to describe an event which is inherently unpredictable and rare; what Taleb showed through his analysis and putting money (OPM, to be clear) on this analysis was the "black swans" were nowhere near as rare as the models assumed.
What I am talking about is much simpler: if nCOV is in fact, highly infectious as is being demonstrated in early Wuhan, in Italy and Spain, and in the US and Germany today - how can it have started much earlier without having this infectiousness display itself?
We saw doctors in Wuhan getting sick - why weren't doctors in Italy getting sick if they were seeing "strange pneumonia" cases in October which were nCOV (as opposed to any of a huge number of other things, including selective memory, coincidence, etc).
So this isn't logic per se - this is a consistency check. Either nCOV is highly infectious, in which case examples in October are conspicuously different, or else the anecdotal recollections are wrong. Or possibly else something else is going on - like maybe it mutated to a more virulent form, but then there's the problem of how did nCOV simultaneously become more virulent in multiple regions, more or less simultaneously?
At some point, Occam's razor starts throwing out the more ridiculously convoluted possibilities unless concrete proof is at hand.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 23 2020 18:02 utc | 257

John Brewster @251 said
" the engineered economic crash"

What makes you state that the crash is engineered?

Posted by: arby | Mar 23 2020 18:09 utc | 258

Thank you, karlof1 @ 259:

That is a very important editorial, brief and succinct! What the US government is currently doing in seeking to prolong its war against so many suffering nations is outrageous and cannot stand! I would add to the editorial that it behooves the US to bring home its many troops stationed overseas, to withdraw all clandestine operations (that means you, CIA and any other groups pursuing secret agendas) stationing them at a military base for quarantine before sending them out to supplement the good folk who are on the frontline of the US response to the epidemic. The nation is very much at risk because of this stupid propagandistic response, which is no response and if we citizens are being asked to self quarantine and doing our best to so do, there must be a new infrastructure that supports this in every state now crying for such support - state that is within our own borders!

It is a sad situation that we are not able, as China is to extend such support to other countries - in fact we are one of the neediest as evidenced by the statistics on virus expansion. And where this country's government is falling down badly is over the squabble on who gets what monies to prop them up. If it will be more of the same failing policies, we as a country will fail! Which might be as it should be.

We should seriously be thinking about a new apparatus of government. I will never vote for the duopoly again. I will never cast a vote in the system we now have. We have the resources to erect a new government based on Constitutional fundamentals, just as Russia did when communism fell - learn from their example and skip over the mess that occured there when our Bright Boys tried to further their own corporate ends by skewing up the process. The rest of the world will be recovering before we do; let that be a lesson and let us swallow our pride -- humility is the way forward. I am so eager for us to join the rest of the world; I cannot wait!

Posted by: juliania | Mar 23 2020 18:11 utc | 259

@john brewster #251
At an early point, conspiracy theorists lose sight of reality such that there is no way back.
I will point out a number of likely issues with your statements:
1) Correlation vs. causation. Much like 9/11 - any number of "funny business" occurred after the event in question. This does not guarantee or even make likely, that the beneficiaries of this actually perpetrated the deed. There are plenty of smart, opportunistic people out there.
2) That there is some nefarious cabal in charge of everything. This is the most ridiculous assumption of all - any close examination of rich people shows numerous cases where they have been flat out wrong. The nCOV cases in the Idaho town surrounded by rich people's hideaways, is one example. The mass delusion of Russiagate over the Trump election is another. There are so many, it isn't even funny. Just because someone is rich does not make them either omniscient or all-powerful. It doesn't even make them wise or smart. It just means that they have the ability to do ever more stupid things, if they choose to do something stupid to start with. A more recent example: Bill Gates.
He read about a study where smaller classes led to better outcomes. He then spent many millions of dollars pushing the US educational system to have smaller classes. And he admitted it was a mistake: Gates Foundation admits Common Core was a mistake

So color me unconvinced that there is a cabal (possible) that controls everything (no way in hell) and knows what its doing (hell no) and is united in purpose (double plus hell no).

Or put more simply: always be careful confusing chaos and incompetence with enemy action.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 23 2020 18:12 utc | 260

@john brewster #254
I am unconvinced any numbers for Spanish Flu are reliable.
There was no worldwide organization collecting data then.
There weren't even ways to count data if it existed. The widespread use of counting machines wasn't until just before World War 2: while the Hollerith tabulating machine company was created in 1910, it was pretty much exclusively used by a handful of governments and large companies before the 1930s.
We don't even have samples of the 1918 flu. All we have are stories, from which people have pulled numbers out of their asses.
We do know the 1918 flu killed a lot of young people, but the life expectancy in the 1910s was only 30 or so anyway.
Even numbers of deaths - while these are recorded in the US/Europe, they certainly weren't elsewhere in the world.
And then there's the infection numbers: where did these come from? Again, pulled out of asses because they had no way to tell if any individual was sick with 1918 Spanish flu, a regular flu, asthma/allergies, whatever.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 23 2020 18:19 utc | 261

arata | Mar 23 2020 3:42 utc | 166:

Anyone actively involved in blocking medical supplies in a global pandemic should be charged with Crimes against Humanity. A despicable behavior.

uncle tungsten | Mar 23 2020 11:09 utc | 211:

US forces stationed all through Europe

A repeat of the Spanish, or should I say, the Kansas Flu.

vk | Mar 23 2020 14:50 utc | 229:

if it is so easy to create a brand new virus, then why is the USG summoning 16 supercomputers to undo it?

Who said it was easy? There's a reason why the US is in over $21 Trillion in debt. Remember, it's not just the virus itself but how it is used, is just as important. Think cutlery. It can be a tool but also a weapon if I use it to kill someone.

Posted by: Ian2 | Mar 23 2020 18:24 utc | 262

Some major changes on infectious diseases since SARS and MERS. A number of medical conditions in many countries must be reported. An outbreak like happened in Wuhan is definately a reportable item in many countries.
China's view on WHO

China is one of the two initiating states of the World Health Organization (WHO). At the 25th Assembly of WHO in 1972, China was restored its legitimate seat in WHO. Since then, China has sent delegations to all World Health assemblies and sessions of the Regional Committee for the Western Pacific, has been elected as member of the Executive Board for many times. Up till now, WHO has provided China with various technical assistance valuing over US$100,000,000

I take it team Trump and the CIA would have known all this, though it is difficult to under estimate the sanity of the US leadership.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 23 2020 18:24 utc | 263

And in non-coronavirus news:
Apparently being stoned isn't as bad as using your phone - in any way - while driving but it is worse than being legal limit drunk:
Study on driving impairments from various causes
Carplay is almost 5 times worse than being drunk, high on weed is only 75% worse...

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 23 2020 18:37 utc | 264

@c1ue | Mar 23 2020 18:19 utc | 264

We don't even have samples of the 1918 flu. All we have are stories, from which people have pulled numbers out of their asses.

Not true, samples were collected from Svalbard in the Norwegian arctic (1999).

Six bodies unearthed last year in the Norwegian Arctic have unexpectedly yielded a scientific prize: They hold part of the virus that caused the Spanish influenza of 1918, which killed at least 40 million people in one of the worst disease outbreaks in history.

Researchers at a scientific meeting in London said this week that they have identified fragments of the long-sought virus in the brains and organs of six young men who died in October 1918 on Svalbard, an island less than 800 miles from the North Pole.

Posted by: Norwegian | Mar 23 2020 18:37 utc | 265



Trying to follow your logic. What exactly are you saying?

a) That COVID-19 was a CIA/Mi-6 plot to undermine China and kill millions of its people?
"Likely, tens of thousands of innocent people will now live that otherwise would've died if Trump and Bojo had allowed what's clearly a CIA/Mi-6 plan to proceed"

b) But China and S. Korea outsmarted them in declaring a crisis?
"There was never any thought given to the possibility China would declare a crisis, lock itself down thus shutting down global supply chains."

c) That the entire scheme backfired as COVID-19 as it wasn't supposed to be particularly dangerous?
"Again as I wrote earlier, it appears COVID-19's mortality rate was deemed to be little more than flu despite its novel nature and communicability, and like the flu would never become a big economic threat to the Empire."

Posted by: krypton | Mar 23 2020 18:37 utc | 266

Uncle Tungsten @ 211

YMNS was most likely referencing this information from George Webb.

Posted by: Lark | Mar 23 2020 18:38 utc | 267

@ 260 c1ue.. now b's latest article is saying nov / dec... that might not fit with the examples given about it starting earlier in italy.. at any rate - yes, i am familiar with nassim talebs books as i have read most of them.. i am sorry if i didn't convey that properly for you! lets be happy that lockdown seems to be having some positive results.. are you the kind of person that likes to always be right?? i don't know, but i am getting that impression from you! cheers..

Posted by: james | Mar 23 2020 18:49 utc | 268

juliania @262--

Thanks for your reply! The Duopoly's proposed measures to deal with the crisis when closely examined show its utter contempt for the non-elite, which is inline with the initial plan, even if that plan was made in reaction to the natural evolution of the virus, as it now seems highly likely that initial fatalities caused by COVID-19 were masked by what were assumed to be "normal" flu and pneumonia when examining Italy's experience. It's possible a pandemic wouldn't have been declared until Italy's breakout and the supply chain aspect of the crisis either delayed or staved-off since that assumes China didn't do a lockdown.

China cried Wolf! The Outlaw US Empire tried its best to say the Wolf's imaginary, but the Wolf's reality was proven by one of the few remaining UN organizations not undermined by the Empire. The 5-Eyes split on their approach with the Asian duo deciding not to follow the Atlanticist trio's initial choice to ignore it all and do nothing. Then out of nowhere came Dr. Chu and her analyses, which prompted Washington's governor Jay Inslee's rapid and proper response. The attempt to suppress the information and keep the plan afloat thus failed. But as with previous CIA attacks on the citizenry, few entertain the hypothesis I've outlined. As I wrote above, Bojo's do nothing response--develop "heroic herd immunity"--that would've killed 40K+ as some have predicted and overwhelmed the NHS so Bojo could posit its failure and demand it be privatized is another damning bit of evidence that a plan was indeed afoot. But China cried Wolf and scuppered it all.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 23 2020 18:52 utc | 269

Surprised so few have commented on Washington Post survey that Crimeans massively prefer return to Russia.The MSM survey undercuts with broadsword the MSM axiom that Russia "annexed" Crimea. Crimea has a society distinct from that of Ukraine. Geography, history, majority culture and language make reunification normal. Moreover, the increased support from minority Tatars suggests there has been no tyranny by the majority, so the reunification can be considered validated by those who matter--the people who live there. Morally and I certainly hope legally no one has a right to interfere, although might always demands right. The Post can add its sneaky little spin but survey results (2014-2020) should be required background for every MSM report.

Posted by: piggly | Mar 23 2020 19:08 utc | 270

krypton @269--

Thanks for your reply and previous commentary! As explained to juliania and others earlier, the virus didn't need to be designed and released. Rather, it could easily be a natural occurrence that was weaponized given its novel nature, which rendered it invisible to medical authorities for awhile. That of course begs the question: Then how did CIA/Mi-6 learn about it? Likely because one of their duties is to be looking for such things so they can be used as their Biowarfare policy's designed to do since WW2. They just needed to keep its existence unknown for as long as possible to exact maximum damage, which is how they operated during previous outbreaks.

Recall this is entirely hypothetical but does have a few damning bits of evidence in its favor. Since it appears you're a newbie at the bar, you should know that I've considered the geopolitical scene to be in state of Hybrid Third World War since the Ukrainian coup in 2014, although IMO Putin would push that date back to 2008. Also recall the #1 policy goal of the Outlaw US Empire: Full Spectrum Domination of the planet and its people as announced in Joint Vision 2010, Joint Vision 2020 and in numerous planning and budgetary documents submitted to Congress going back to the PNAC prior to 911. And last, recall the ongoing, 4K+ yearlong Class War between private creditors and everyone else, and their counter-revolution against the aims of Classical Economists that began soon after the Paris Commune and escalated in the 1870s. All of that and more's been part of the ongoing discourse here between us barflies with much accepted as proven fact despite being well outside the Establishment Narrative.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 23 2020 19:20 utc | 271

@ T.T 256

Thank you for citing Hudson's op-ed ' the debt jubilee' is the only way. Good to see Hudson go there. In the past weeks I have made several imho comments that a debt jubilee is the only option.

Global debt of $265 Trillion will not be paid.
Today, the Fed announced it will hyperinflate the debt away by deploying QE5 to infinity. By end of week looking at another $4-5 trillion. Under the scenario "Whatever it Takes" Feds will now buy everything from corporate bonds, MBS, ETFs, add in stocks as some have promoted. Today the market is not impressed.

From whatever side we approach this surreal event, the Coronacri$i$ is a two-fer. In the next 18 months it's devastation for Joe and Jane Mainstreet, small businesses without a lobbyist, self-employed and unemployed whose benefits ceased. The elites who benefitted from the greatest financial casino over the last 10 years are lining up to double down for more free 0% money.

Under the cover, the financial collapse began in August-September 2019 in the credit market [Repos started a cardiac like seizure.] We are now reading the Credit market imploded.
Explained Here. It was dubbed a simple plumbing leak. The Feds tried to fix "the leak" starting with $75 billion daily injections and up to $175 billion. Fast forward, last Thursday and Friday pumping up to $4 trillion. As the cited Reuters article states:

[.]"Trading in stocks and bonds can become difficult. It can also pinch lending to businesses and consumers and, if the disruption is prolonged, it can become a drag on a U.S. economy that relies heavily on the flow of credit." September’s funding strains did not spread to other markets. However, a prolonged disturbance or a weak economy would increase the risks of contagion.[.]

That quote made in September was optimistic because the repo fix continued. Printing trillions (debt) will not remedy prosperity built on debt.

Now we have not just a weak economy but a non-existant economy!!!! and as economic life is halted, 1 in 3 Americans, soon to be All.must.stay.home.

COVID-19 will be the catalyst for a debt jubilee.

Posted by: Likklemore | Mar 23 2020 19:45 utc | 272

why pay interest to a private bank, when the gov't could be issuing the money interest free? this is the part that i have never understood, other then if i was a kleptomaniac and had the ability to convince the gov't to run all the money thru private banks.. a little over a 100 years ago - this is how it was done as i understand it!

here in canada, the gov't could issue the money backed by the gov't of canada for use only in canada.. they could get a lot done! build a hospital, or whatever...the way the world currencies work now, everything is overseen by the imf-world bank ponzi scheme.. they won't allow this..

Posted by: james | Mar 23 2020 20:11 utc | 273

c1ue @ 263

At an early point, conspiracy theorists lose sight of reality such that there is no way back.
I will point out a number of likely issues with your statements:

...2) That there is some nefarious cabal in charge of everything.

Do you always begin your responses with an unwarranted smear? Why does disagreement have to immediately lead to name calling?

There is nothing in 251 about a conspiracy. There is nothing about a "cabal". In fact the only thing vaguely like that says the opposite:

john brewster @ 251

Any "plot" there is...

So I invite you to take back the smear.


My position has already been stated many times. We have to talk about the government's actions, and they are controlled by the 1% - or is that also CT?

I repeat that the economic actions are opportunistic, not conspiratorial. Other's here share the same POV. For instance:

information_agent @ 249

Maybe the die was cast on global financial markets the minute oil hit $30/bbl and Russia decided not to curtail production. With a house of cards as unstable as our financial titans had built since 2008 (and for decades before that, in reality), it wouldn't really take much to bring it all down.

With that assumption out there, maybe these same financial masters of the universe needed a cover story or smokescreen to allow for the complete destruction of the financial markets so that they could avoid taking any blame. It was the cornonavirus, not our insatiable greed and corruption! We deserve yet another bailout by the taxpayers, but also let us take their homes, rob their retirement accounts and pensions, and cripple their small businesses so we, the ruling class, can get back on our feet faster.

If you don't think economic and financial actions detrimental to the 99% are being taken under cover of covid, you are being willfully blind. Can't you see its flocking behavior, not conspiracy?

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 23 2020 20:14 utc | 274


Thanks for your response to some questions I had. Yes, I am a newbie here although I've been following the coronavirus threads for awhile.

There seems to be two basic trends of thought: one side believes the pandemic was not "planned" by any agency or government. Pandemics have happened in the past (Black Death, 1918) and they will happen again and are a natural occurrence. With the human population on this planet approaching 8 billion souls and the increasing globalization there's more opportunities than ever for pandemic diseases to sweep around the world. The other side believes that what we are experiencing was most likely planned and is simply more evidence of, as you put it, "the #1 policy goal of the of Outlaw US Empire: Full Spectrum Domination of the planet and its people". Proven fact? I'm not convinced. Like the aphorism says,“extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”.

Posted by: krypton | Mar 23 2020 20:15 utc | 275

c1ue @264

I am unconvinced any numbers for Spanish Flu are reliable.

I'm OK with that. Its a valid argument.

So, I assume you will also tell Peter AU1, who brought up the whole 1918 statistics argument that I was just responding to, that he is blowing smoke?

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 23 2020 20:16 utc | 276

john brewster to c1ue:

If you don't think economic and financial actions detrimental to the 99% are being taken under cover of covid, you are being willfully blind.

I agree:

The Empire Games Covid-19

Covid-19 Fake CRISIS! Allows Government-assisted Profiteering: Chloroquine vs. Remdesivir


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 23 2020 20:19 utc | 277

krypton @278

"Full-spectrum dominance" is the stated objective of the US military in all conflicts, and US military actions are the purest expression of American foreign policy. I am surprised that this is even being debated.

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 23 2020 20:31 utc | 278

c1ue "We do know the 1918 flu killed a lot of young people, but the life expectancy in the 1910s was only 30 or so anyway."

Very misleading. Due to very high child mortality back in the day, average life expectancy is very different to average adult age.
Average adult age would have been somewhat lower than it is today but far higher than 30.
To gain somewhat accurate figure for adult age, figures for under 20s deaths would be needed.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 23 2020 21:04 utc | 279

krypton @278--

The publications I cited, Joint Vision 2010 and Joint Vision 2020 were the public announcements of that policy goal. That they were ignored by BigLie Media should come as no surprise. The first was published by Clinton's Crime Crew in late 1998, the second under BushCo in 2006. Outlaw US Empire behavior proves the policy's aims.

When China Cried Wolf in early January, I wrote soon after about the longstanding conflict human society has engaged in with the Microcosmos--the Unseen Enemy--and how societies have differed in the amount of resources they've devoted to that struggle over millennia. Asia has clearly devoted a higher proportion than Europe or the Americas with the proof being readily seen in the great population imbalance between the regions--one has simply been better at general sanitation than the other. I invite you to look up the Miasma Theory of Disease and the Germ Theory of Disease, the former being the dominant explanation for thousands of years until it was overturned @1870. In a society such as China with its 1.4 billion people, paying close attention to the interplay with the microcosmos has a very high priority whereas the exact opposite's the rule within the Outlaw US Empire. Such ethos and the resulting morality becomes quite visible during an event like that at present. So, it's possible to predict the likely response by a particular nation by the level of its morality. The Outlaw US Empire being totally immoral, its actions would be very easy to predict and were, IMO. The world may not see Imperial domestic policy, but it does see how it behaves elsewhere with predictable results as few nations now consider the Outlaw US Empire as friendly and trustworthy.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 23 2020 21:15 utc | 280

: vk | Mar 23 2020 14:28 utc | 225 BS Wally does not forget. Is paralipsis. your deception. I applaud.

I interrogate. It's a hobby. Write "reports". (for the drawer, nobody else)


Posted by: Walter | Mar 23 2020 21:24 utc | 281

vk | Mar 23 2020 14:50 utc | 229 No "sourse" was proffered. bs

Posted by: Walter | Mar 23 2020 21:26 utc | 282

There were no UK (or Israeli) participants in the 2019 Wuhan military games.

Posted by: lysias | Mar 23 2020 21:26 utc | 283

: Peter AU1 | Mar 23 2020 15:14 utc | 231

Of course "it's" real. This is a given, essential.

CV is assumed to be more or less lethal by Wally. As said, it is a ringer. Ringer must not seem empty, ergo ringer is real. Is nevertheless really a ringer..

While we are "locked down" (illegally) Phuckin Columbus dealt with and imported they say, smallpox... plagues and epidemics were ordinary when the Constitution was ratified...but...well now, for some magical reason... Ukase, "rules laid down for our behavior" replace law...

Wally believes in coincidences, as they suggest agency and intent, as every prosecuting attorney knows.

Posted by: Walter | Mar 23 2020 21:33 utc | 284

If it was irrational for Americans to develop an anti-globalization virus, it was also irrational to be the first to launch a cyberattack with Stuxnet.

Posted by: lysias | Mar 23 2020 21:35 utc | 285

Yet another cruise. Are these people mad?
700 people on a cruise heading to Italy (cruises being Italy's main income lately?). After one guest was tested positive during a stop in Crete (the Creteans are thankful!) the Argentinian woman aged 63 was disembarked and admitted to Heraklion hospital with bronchitis-like symptoms. Costa Cruises says she is in a stable condition.
So some people should wear masks and other people should go on cruise?

Posted by: Mina | Mar 23 2020 21:35 utc | 286

"It is estimated that about 500 million people or one-third of the world’s population became infected with this virus. The number of deaths was estimated to be at least 50 million worldwide with about 675,000 occurring in the United States."

US population 1918 - 103,208,000
"The United States lost as many as 675,000 people," "Exact data in the number of deaths is elusive, but global mortality figures are estimated to have been between 10 and 20 percent of those who were infected."

Changes in wiki look to do with the naming. Spanish flue not politically correct name.
Numbers are apolitical.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 23 2020 21:53 utc | 287

Karlof1 #283

I agree with your take on the Outlaw US Empire. Not much different than how the Roman Empire ruled over people 2K years ago and all the other empires over the course of history. I've been watching the American Marxian economist Prof Richard Wolff on youtube. I'm sure you know who he is. He makes a lot of sense. And Americans think Bernie Sanders is a socialist!

Posted by: krypton | Mar 23 2020 22:18 utc | 288

Silver lining, the virus knocks out the monster:

Posted by: jared | Mar 23 2020 23:35 utc | 289

Peter AU1 @ 179

In my 254, I mentioned only my disagreement with your 1918 flu statistic.

But, since you keep pushing back, I want to point out that in your 179, you are happy to cite an infection rate on the Diamond Princess; but you do not bother to mention that the overall death rate on that elder-cruise was only 0.2% (7 out of 3700). Pretty inconsistent.

AFAIAC, statistics mongering in the current "censorship by noise" environment is a waste of time. You continue to repeat challenged statistics instead of discussing the statistics I present that challenge them. (E.g., 99% of deaths in elderly/imparied; Italian hospital system always at breaking point) If you don't respond to my challenges directly have no more time for your "talking points".

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 23 2020 23:59 utc | 290

An excerpt from a Truthout article;

"U.S.-style capitalism is also a virus, and it has infected every aspect of this situation. Worker safety, insurance coverage and costs, medical preparedness, and vital supplies — even the bill intended to rescue the country from some final financial calamity: All have been perverted and disrupted by the profit motive that never, ever, ever sleeps.

Full article;

Posted by: ben | Mar 24 2020 0:09 utc | 291

krypton @291--

Thanks for your reply! Yes, Wolff's good, but it's been the work of Michael Hudson that's upended Neoliberalism, its Junk Economic doctrines and historical roots, thus shining a very bright light on a long dark past. He has his own massive website, but for many it's hard to know where to begin with all the info stored there. I suggest beginning with the free copy offered of his magnum opus, Super Imperialism: The Economic Strategy of American Empire, which explains how it all works and why. As for the current political-economic battle, there're many papers and interviews, but this very recent one about the importance of public, neighborhood banks is best at the moment. Hudson will eventually become known as the political-economist who revealed the depths of the 4K+ yearlong Class War between creditors and debtors and how it's evolved into the basis for today's most important Global Crisis far more important and deadly that COVID-19. That's what his current book ….and forgive them their debts: Lending, Foreclosure and Redemption from Bronze Age Finance to the Jubilee Year and his next two will focus on revealing provided he lives long enough, he's now 80, to complete those projects. Again, welcome to the bar!

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 24 2020 0:10 utc | 292

ben @294--

Thanks for linking to that excellent, short succinct recap of the entire situation. Pitt warns us all to warily watch Congress and protest loudly as it ignores the 99%.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 24 2020 0:20 utc | 293

@Norwegian #268
They got parts, but it is not at all clear if the parts they got are the important ones.
But more importantly, even if they found the full 1918 flu virus - it still would not inform them of just how good it was - in reality - in transmission, in mortality, etc. They won't even be able to tell what it does unless the virus or virus fragments closely resembles a known virus.
This still means any "data" about the 1918 flu is far more speculation than fact.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 24 2020 0:28 utc | 294

@james #271
I don't care about being right, but I do care about people not looking at their own chains of thought closely.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 24 2020 0:30 utc | 295

@john brewster #277
Ok, so you're *not* saying there's a conspiracy. You are saying it is a non-conspiracy government action to kill lots of people and crash the economic system for selfish benefit.
Seems like a distinction without a difference.
Secondly, you are still confusing effect with both plan and capability to enact said plan, and also discounting plain old incompetence, sloth and inaction.
I said very early on that lockdowns were going to have a very negative effect on the US economy and even provided a BLS Household spending based estimate.
However, the reality is that the lockdowns are being enacted by states - not by the federal government. So who is the conspirator(s) here?
Now, if you said every corporation was going to take advantage of this crisis and the emergency spending bill to get free money - I would 100% agree with that.
It still does not mean the crisis is fake, the disease is fake, that there is any type of coherent government plan, etc etc.
As I've noted elsewhere - there actually are examples of government action leading to good nCOV outcomes: extreme tracking and testing in Singapore and South Korea.
But those countries both are unitary governments and were already working on plans due to SARS - which the US never did either at the federal or state level.
So in effect, the difference between conspiracy and opportunism is means, motive and opportunity - you have focused on motive and opportunity but neglected the means.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 24 2020 0:36 utc | 296

@Peter AU1 #282
No, someone else posted a link of average age in 1920 - it was 25-ish.

So you are wrong - the life expectancy very much mirrored the population age distribution. If there were really lots and lots of old people, the average age would be much higher since it excludes child mortality.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 24 2020 0:39 utc | 297

I sense that the wealthy are rushing to safety while the rest are left to work through the virus. Helicopter money is dangled in front of the people like the Dickens novel where the wealthy man offers a coin to the father as reparation for his driver killing the poor mans son. We are to be greatful for small favors from the rich and poerful.

Now imagine some evil doer was going to bankrupt my economy by crashing the market. I know my econmy is already running out of steam and I will be held accountable for the sham that is the economy. This not only decimates my election chances and threatens my military superiority but badly damages my underwriters the people who make the sun rise. Would I throw a fragmentation granade into the crowd and cry terror and then gain unlimted scoped to erase all debits anddistract the public from the all too predictable collapse. Hmmm..

Posted by: jared | Mar 24 2020 0:42 utc | 298

@ 298 c1ue... okay.. thanks.. yes - we all have to be conscious of our blind spots.. i am curious where you live, if you don't mind me asking.. thanks..

Posted by: james | Mar 24 2020 0:56 utc | 299

@ 301 jared... i think the characterization of all the bail outs is the rich abusive (boeing) , get bailed out and the little guy doesn't... in this situation if the same thing happens, it ain't going to be pretty as there are a lot more that are going to be affected.. here in canada that are doing a moratorium on mortgages for those who need it, but they have yet to do a moritorium on renters.. it will be interesting to see how this plays out.. of course what happens in the usa will probably be a lot more cut throat.. but then again, many in the usa seem content with the devil residing in socialism or anything that smacks of socialism.. i find it very bizarre myself and maybe it is just more of the brainwashing that has been very successful over the years.. i naively thought for a split second sanders might have a chance, but it was only for a split second... rather the usa will continue to be given the worst choices possible.. it never fails to amaze me..

Posted by: james | Mar 24 2020 1:02 utc | 300

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