Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 22, 2020

The MoA Week In Review - Open Thread 2020-22

Last week's posts at Moon of Alabama:

> Go hard right now. Order heavy social distancing. Get this thing under control.
Then, release the measures, so that people can gradually get back their freedoms and something approaching normal social and economic life can resume. <
Harry Moroz @hrmoroz - 15:35 UTC · Mar 20, 2020
For the average American the best way to tell if you have covid-19 is to cough in a rich person’s face and wait for their test results
> Overall, we rate Moon of Alabama Left Biased based on story selection and word choices that consistently favor progressives and Mixed factually due to anonymity associated with who runs the site. Otherwise, Moon of Alabama is well sourced to credible/factual information. <

Other issues:


Six years and $20 billion in Russian investment later, Crimeans are happy with Russian annexation - Washington Post!
Ukraine’s Zelensky wants to end a war in the east. His problem: No one agrees how to do it. - Washington Post

Use as open thread ...

Posted by b on March 22, 2020 at 14:21 UTC | Permalink

next page »

Let's get political with this pandemic:

Coronavirus: NHS doctors feel like 'lambs to slaughter' without protective kit, warns senior medic

Europe's desperate doctors now shielded by trash bags as equipment shortages continue

Bu...but I thought this kind of practice only happened among communists! We liberals don't sacrifice our own people with subpar material conditions! We're the moderates, the centrists!


Japan's denialist façade is falling. There's only so much a State can do against a transcendental force of nature:

Experts sound alarm over Japan's coronavirus testing

On the other side of the Sea of Japan, South Korea seems to be incapable of dropping its daily cases below the 100 mark:

Korea reports 98 new virus cases, total now at 8,897

The pace of daily new infections has shown marked signs of slowing since the second week of this month as health authorities completed extensive testing of 210,000 Shincheonji followers.
Of the 98 new cases, 43 are in Daegu and 11 are in surrounding North Gyeongsang Province, the KCDC said. The total number of confirmed cases in Daegu and North Gyeongsang, the two epicenters of the virus outbreak here, stood at 6,387 and 1,254, respectively.

This corroborates with my hypothesis that the South Korean central government only has true freedom of action in the Daegu region. In the rest of S. Korea, it's all up to the discipline of the South Korean people and the good will of the South Korean capitalists.

I understand b's argument that, thanks to the experience of two previous epidemics, the capitalist nations from East Asia are more prepared than the Western nations in containing the pandemic.

My counter-argument is that those countries' economic situation in 2020 is completely different from their own economic situation in 2003-5. In 2003-5, neoliberal capitalism as back at its apex, the capitalist world having magically recovered from the dotcom bubble and the Asian crisis of 1997.

But now, the economic landscape is dire: South Korea and Japan are being compelled to make decisions they would not even think of making 15 years ago:

Tokyo organizers quietly plan for potential Olympic delay, sources say

Canceling Olympics would reduce Japan's GDP by 1.4%, study says

Dollar shortage, foreign selloffs baffle Korea

Korea to unveil W27 tril. market stabilization policy

Net corporate bond issuance plunges amid virus

The economic situation in S. Korea is just not more desperate because the Fed decided to rescue its propaganda outlet south of the 38 Parallel:

Fed gives Korea a helping hand with dollar deal - Currency swap shows early signs of reassuring panicky stock and forex markets in Seoul

My opinion is that the experience with the epidemics of 15-20 years ago helped those countries slow down it, but, ultimately, won't be nearly enough to win the war against the COVID-19. It is an entirely different beast.

Posted by: vk | Mar 22 2020 14:49 utc | 1

I read of the new tool scanning online messages. Checking in: late afternoon my two comments, in reply, failed to appear in the "Western Governments failures" thread.

Coronavirus, Vaccines and the Gates Foundation -
F. William Engdahl delves into the new mRNA vaccine.

[.] Gates Foundation monies via CEPI are financing development of a radical new vaccine method known as messengerRNA or mRNA.

They are co-funding the Cambridge, Massachusetts biotech company, Moderna Inc., to develop a vaccine against the Wuhan novel coronavirus, now called SARS-CoV-2. Moderna’s other partner is the US National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID), a part of the National Institutes of Health (NIH). Head of NIAID is Dr Anthony Fauci, the person at the center of the Trump Administration virus emergency response. Notable about the Fauci-Gates Moderna coronavirus vaccine, mRNA-1273, is that it has been rolled out in a matter of weeks, not years, and on February 24 went directly to Fauci’s NIH for tests on human guinea pigs, not on mice as normal. Moderna’s chief medical adviser, Tal Zaks, argued, “I don’t think proving this in an animal model is on the critical path to getting this to a clinical trial.”

Another notable admission by Moderna on its website is the legal disclaimer, “Special Note Regarding Forward-Looking Statements: …These risks, uncertainties, and other factors include, among others: … the fact that there has never been a commercial product utilizing mRNA technology approved for use.” In other words, completely unproven for human health and safety.

Another biotech company working with unproven mRNA technology to develop a vaccine for the COVID-19 is a German company, CureVac. Since 2015 CureVac has received money from the Gates Foundation to develop its own mRNA technology. In January the Gates-backed CEPI granted more than $8 million to develop a mRNA vaccine for the novel coronavirus.[.]

early fall the CDC planning and forgot to order test kits and ventilators:---{hapstance} ---the recruitment of

Public Health Advisors (Quarantine Program) country wide major cities, every state
Open Period:2019-11-15 to 2020-05-15 Salary $511440. to $93077.
Job summary: - responsible for preventing the importation and spread of communicable diseases from abroad and spread of these diseases domestically.[.]

[Provide technical assistance, consultation and guidance to national, state and / or local agencies; health organizations; federal, state and local law enforcement agencies [.] and quarantine activities [.] ]

Posted by: Likklemore | Mar 22 2020 14:55 utc | 2

In the past week we've seen the true colors of many in the alternative media. Calls for authoritarianism and martial law have have made all their previous arguments for freedom against tyranny seem false. Fittingly, Tulsi Gabbard's choice to support the war criminal Joe Biden, is a microcosm of what we've seen this week.

Posted by: SharonM | Mar 22 2020 15:07 utc | 4

UK Government’s Chief Science Advisor Reveals “Covid-19” Deaths Are Deaths As Normal; BBC Admits It Too

There is by now lots of material on the internet for the reader to understand how deaths by pre-existing illness have been attributed to Covid-19, and this site provides a reasonably good starting place (please see the article linked to above titled, Covid-19 and pneumonic immune system overreaction).

On the other hand, the effort to get to grips with the reason that a fake pandemic has been used by governments in the west to destroy the livelihoods of their governed is something that has not solidified into a coherent and demonstrable idea, and perhaps the only proof of the pudding will be in the eating; i.e. we will only know when it is happening to us. However, at that stage knowledge of Covid-19 as the phantom scapegoat will be well established. And just as the widespread exposure of al-Qaeda, which was the equivalent bogeyman device in the War on Terror as an Orwellian tool of those executing the reaction to (their own) terrorist provocation, proved to undermine and cause to fail a plan for domination of foreign territory by Globalist financier class interests, so too will widespread appreciation of the true nature of Covid-19 undermine and cause to fail the irregular warfare that is now being unleashed on domestic territories

Posted by: john | Mar 22 2020 15:30 utc | 5

Why is it that I feel like all leaders at Municipal, State, Provincial, Regional, and Federal levels in whatever country should watch Governor Andrew Cuomo's daily briefings? Why do I feel it's required viewing for the length of the pandemic? Why is it I feel like all leaders should cover the pandemic as thoroughly and efficiently as he's covering it? And I'm not even a big fan of the Cuomos! Only the truth matters to me, not personalities. If he's doing it right; I don't care who it is!

Watch and you'll understand why.

Posted by: Circe | Mar 22 2020 15:40 utc | 6

@ Posted by: SharonM | Mar 22 2020 15:07 utc | 4

I understand you're worried. A crisis is also an opportunity after all - willingly or not.

However, there's a limit to ideology. Every ideology must be, in order to be hegemonic, fact-based: the more fact-based it is, the more hegemonic it tends to be (or, in the case of a hegemony in decline, the more revolutionary it tends to be).

You can't just tell millions of people to accept millions of dead every 100 years (that's the periodicity of a pandemic) just to keep your ideology pure. Humans are animals, and animals have instinct of survival, therefore it would not be fact-based to preach it. The moment you accept millions of dead every 100 years is acceptable as the price of your ideology, then your ideology becomes decadent and reactionary. It is not different from an ancient religion sacrificing humans to appease the gods.

Posted by: vk | Mar 22 2020 15:44 utc | 7


"Why is it that I feel..."

Because you're a bootlicker?

Posted by: SharonM | Mar 22 2020 15:46 utc | 8

And who is fact checking "Media Bias" fact checkers. Or as Will Smith's movie wife put it in Enemy of the State, "Okay, but who is monitoring the monitors?"

Posted by: Paul Damascene | Mar 22 2020 15:47 utc | 9

From Common Dreams;

An excerpt;""Heartless," "cruel," and "appalling" were just some of the adjectives progressive critics and analysts used late Thursday to describe the Senate GOP's newly unveiled trillion-dollar economic stimulus package which—by design—would completely deny direct cash payments to the poorest Americans while cutting taxes for corporations, dishing out tens of billions in bailout funds to major industries, and restricting paid leave benefits that were just signed into law this week."

True? We'll see..

Posted by: ben | Mar 22 2020 15:51 utc | 10

The panic doesn't have to be fake for every concern we might have about its exploitation by sinister forces to be true.

Put otherwise: "Just because they're out to get you, doesn't mean it's not a disaster."

Posted by: Paul Damascene | Mar 22 2020 15:51 utc | 11

@ b... thank you....

can you fix the format on the previous thread? someone messed it up on the 2nd page badly.. thanks..

Posted by: james | Mar 22 2020 15:53 utc | 12

@7 vk

lol Keep my ideology pure? I don't melt and become a cowering ooze every flu season. Those in power can depend on propaganda sponges like you to stand at attention whenever they wish. I'll decline;)

Posted by: SharonM | Mar 22 2020 15:54 utc | 13

john @5

We need to be wary of cover-your-ass (CYA) propaganda narratives.

Government failure (including failure by government officials) is now being excused and misdirected.

Those failures are so deep and systemic that they appear to me to have been deliberate. There are only a few reasons why they would want to fail. Some of these may be:

  • cover up the origin of the virus (that Covid-19 was already circulating in the US/West)
  • cause a CRISIS! that allows for directing hate toward China and accelerating "decoupling" Western economies from China;
  • cause a CRISIS! that allows for bailouts of an over-extended Wall Street and favored companies like Boeing.

More here: The Empire Games Covid-19


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 22 2020 15:56 utc | 14

Paul Damascene @11

I suggest you read comments made on the virus-related threads.

The virus isn't fake, but the CRISIS! is.

Just a few reasons:

- USA classified all discussion related to preparation for the virus;

- suppression of testing;

- failure to prepare despite urgent warnings;

- blaming China for US/West lack of preparation (they have sufficient info);

- failure to acknowledge and implement treatment;

- rush of aid to Wall Street and corporations while slow-walking money to ordinary people (will we ever see that money?).


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 22 2020 16:06 utc | 15

@8 SharonM

Did you actually watch the governor's briefings or is that less-than-brilliant comment something stinky you just pulled out of your arse?

Did I just not write...I'm NOT a partisan of the Cuomos?

Sometimes just being contrary is just plain stoopid. It's obvious you have a problem...mostly with the truth!

Posted by: Circe | Mar 22 2020 16:13 utc | 16

Global depression? China appears to be getting back to work, Russia appears to be acting normally, Japan appears to have streets full of shoppers, unlike here in my area. A couple of months of reduced economic activity is going to freeze up the system?

The West appears to be falling apart. Much of this is from the massive market of counter party risk and derivatives. Hedge funds were caught on the wrong side of the trade margined up to the hilt. All cash was in the market. Now there is a "dollar shortage" as everyone moves back to cash and is hoarding it.

In reality the market was falling apart before this happened. Behind the scenes and the FED was pumping liquidity into the market prior to November 2019. Capitalism was leveraged to the hilt and in no position to withstand a short term shock. They will get to socialize their risk.

I feel for the small business owners who have their lives in a business. They are hurting. Screw the hedge funds, let them die. Make the companies sell their stock back into the market or use it as collateral for a loan from the lender of last resort if needed.

Things will get back to normal and the games will go on as the system's survival depends on the rigged game.

Posted by: dltravers | Mar 22 2020 16:14 utc | 17

Hey b !

Please go easy with the 'conspiracy theorists', they actually write sensible comments, unlike some of the resident trolls who spout nonsense on a daily basis.

Please let a hundred flowers bloom....
百花齐放 !

Thank you.

Posted by: denk | Mar 22 2020 16:15 utc | 18

Jackrabbit 14

spot on !

Posted by: denk | Mar 22 2020 16:17 utc | 19

vk | Mar 22 2020 15:44 utc | 7 (who wrote to S)

"Every ideology must be, in order to be hegemonic, fact-based: the more fact-based it is, the more hegemonic it tends to be (or, in the case of a hegemony in decline, the more revolutionary it tends to be)."

Your grasp of the realpolitik seems to be elegantly sound. I am impressed (not for the first time, either). Is very well-stated. In metaphysics of conflict one comes to the identical statement. Kudos, You're the Dude!

Wally might say that ideology and "perception" tend to align somewhat out of phase with reality. There is highly variable latency, sometimes decades. If an excessive meta-stability occurs the resulting event-cascade creates revolution...more or less.

Posted by: Walter | Mar 22 2020 16:20 utc | 20

Bob Heinlein, the, some say, cryptofascist Bob, wrote, as everyon knows

"Revolt in 2100" (assumes a religious fascist US totally bs by propaganda)


"The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" (Revolution lead by a computer)

Both dated, but containing the quality of polemic examinations of some matters we here at MoA are concerned with.

And the quality of entertainment during our interlude.

Posted by: Walter | Mar 22 2020 16:30 utc | 21

Circe @16

I'm sure I'm not the only one that chuckles every time you pretend to love "the truth".

I saw Cuomo and while he makes a few good points, on the whole he's pushing Party-line nonsense like many other talking heads today.

The fact that there's an effective treatment of the virus changes everything. But Cuomo and other Government officials are failing to adjust to that reality. In that way, THEY are the problem. And whatever 'messaging' they push is nonsense.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 22 2020 16:36 utc | 22

Obama the prez for 'change',

Trump the 'lesser evil',

Tulsi the 'peacenik',

SaNder the 'progressive'....

The murkkans fall for it, every single time.


Posted by: denk | Mar 22 2020 16:39 utc | 23

SharonM | Mar 22 2020 15:07 utc | 4

Hi. Just to find out what you think of this as a "conspiracy theory"; Biden has already said that he will choose a "woman of colour" as a running mate. He is probably incapable of actually doing the job of Pres. BUT he will pick up Democrat votes. Tulsi is "off white" (I hate talking about skin colour but here I will make an exception) and very capable. IF Biden chose Tulsi as his running mate, and then once elected cannot do the job - doesn't Tulsi become President? Could that vague possibility be enough to get Tulsi to "temporarily" support BIden?

(I'm not American and have no "skin in the game", so this is pure speculation on my part)

Posted by: Stonebird | Mar 22 2020 16:41 utc | 24

b, that Harry Moroz quote is excellent !

Posted by: Stonebird | Mar 22 2020 16:45 utc | 25

@Walter | Mar 22 2020 16:30 utc | 21

"The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"

We once had an extra ordinary jazz singer in this country, her name was Radka Toneff, I saw her in concert twice.

Here she sings "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"

Posted by: Norwegian | Mar 22 2020 16:51 utc | 26

@22 Jackrabbit

(Blech...) He mentioned they ordered tens of thousands of doses of the treatment. You probably missed that part on your bathroom break. What part of: I'm not into the Cuomo clan particularly, don't you get?

I disagree with the Governor's brother, Chris Cuomo, on CNN 75% of the time!

Keep trying, like you know it all.🙄

Posted by: Circe | Mar 22 2020 16:51 utc | 27

@24 Stonebird

Hi, Stonebird:)
Joe Biden is as sick of a criminal as any in history, so I just figure Gabbard would be too if she was his running mate. If the thought is that she would take the reigns after Biden dies, then that thought is from the CIA, who of course are a bunch of sick criminals.

Posted by: SharonM | Mar 22 2020 16:55 utc | 28

Surge in both cases and dead today in Europe. There were holidays 3 weeks ago... Most of the dead would have been sick for 3 weeks probably, but if we are not told when they were hospitalized we cannot understand much.
As for the new cases... who knows.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 22 2020 17:01 utc | 29

Jackrabbit @ 14 says:

We need to be wary of cover-your-ass (CYA) propaganda narratives

yeah, no why are you warning me?

Posted by: john | Mar 22 2020 17:04 utc | 30

Chronology of the death of a French doctor today. Came back from a trip to Madagascar a month ago in good shape. Was working at Compiegnes, which because a cluster in mid-February when it received a taxi driver who was positive and treated him without special precautions. Got sick and was quarantined 3 weeks ago, i.e. early March, two weeks after exposition.
Died today. That is to say that most of the dead we see now might have been affected since mid-Feb.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 22 2020 17:05 utc | 31

@15 Jackrabbit --
I don't disagree with anything you're saying here, except I don't see what is "fake" about this. If by this you mean that this a manufactured crisis, then we might both agree that the crisis is not less real. Though the responses to the manufactured aspects might be distinguished from the epidemiological ones.

Posted by: Paul Damascene | Mar 22 2020 17:06 utc | 32

Circe @27

You probably missed that ALL NYS residents (over 19 million people) have been ordered to stay home. An unnecessary measure when the virus can be treated effectively.

And if you're sick, you're told to stay home until/unless it worsens, which allows the virus to progress to the point where treatment with inexpensive Chloroquine is less effective.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 22 2020 17:08 utc | 33

‘Nobody knew Covid-19 would take off like it did’: Mnuchin says coronavirus looks like 10 to 12 week scenario

OK, therefore, it's not China's fault either. Good to know that was cleared up.

Posted by: vk | Mar 22 2020 17:23 utc | 35

@33 jr

You are not an epidemiologist. You have no idea what you're dealing with. You have no idea how hard it would be to roll out anti-virals to a population that is brimming with contagion and swarming around. Best leave it at that now.


This past week I was still at work driving around town and noticing the amount of people, families, kids, and dogs out enjoying the fair weather. We are lucky this did not begin at the outset of winter in the northern hemisphere. Public tennis courts were being used and bicyclists were everywhere. It was amazing to see. You would have never guessed by their faces that we were being faced with government orders to stop the economy and hunker down.

In Europe and especially in France, the economy essentially slows to a crawl during late summer (August), where locals disappear from their work and orders slow. Tourist season is big during this time, but many locals are off on holiday.

What a brilliant thing to consider in America as we are now blessed with the perfect opportunity to examine where we have gone wrong in this country. Alongside Japan and Germany, Americans are hard workers and busy bees. Many of the old guys I work with live to work. My father tells me about his dad who owned a dry-cleaning plant in Aberdeen, South Dakota, who retired and essentially sat down to die. My father was obviously affected by seeing this and so this is why I believe he is still working and commuting to the city well into his 70s. smh

The point is that we are blessed with a huge opportunity here. Those saying we don't need this are shooting themselves in BOTH feet: the first because they aren't taking the virus serious enough to know that the contagion of it is enough to make the last days of the elderly and vulnerable miserable on planet Earth; the second because they are so short-sighted that they want the economy to pick back up and keep going on in its artificial cadence.

An opportunity like this is literally once in a lifetime.

Take the time to go through your belongings. Decide what is necessary in your life. Chuck the rest out. Work in your garden if you have one. If you are lucky enough to score some extra food at the grocery store, check your neighborhood web place to see if anyone needs help. Be neighborly. Draw, color, TEACH YOUR OWN CHILDREN! My wife says my daughter has been waking up naturally a little later these mornings and is all the more smiley and cheery for it. She is also turning into a good little learner and I am excited to lead her lessons assigned by the teachers online for this stay-at-home period. We are even considering homeschooling her next year because she is so stinking happy and helpful and eager for activities.

Again...we should watch what the government does in the next month or so. They will probably bail out corporations again. But I am telling you the stain of this period of reflection forced upon us can be a serious boon to those who take the time to ponder on the uselessness of consumer society, globalism, and excess. Maybe leisure can attain some kind of footing in these crazy times and open up our willingness to perceive a better way to live.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Mar 22 2020 17:30 utc | 36

Reposted from comments in False Claims About the Novel Coronavirus and How to Debunk Them:

Some Indian researchers found four genome sequences in the novel coronavirus that can also be found in the HIV virus. They self published their findings in a paper that was not peer reviewed. We discussed that paper in detail on February 1 in our second post on the virus and we strongly expressed our doubt about its veracity. A few days later the paper was retracted by its authors after other scientists had pointed out that the lengths of each of the four sequences they had compared were way too small to be of statistical significance”

“– Another peculiar characteristic is COVID-19’s similarities to HIV. And so although another since-retracted pre-print noted several very short genomic sequences in COVID-19’s spike-protein gene that look far more similar to sequences found in HIV than to other coronaviruses – critics quickly pointed out that the shared homology didn’t reach statistical significance. However a closer look at the data reveals that there were a few small shared genomic segments that, despite being physically separated from each other along each strand of DNA, all worked together to code for the Wuhan Strain’s protein-spike’s crucial receptor binding site. Something that is highly unlikely to have happened by chance. And despite most of its protein-spike being shared with SARS, these substituted segments weren’t shared at all – nor were they found in any other coronavirus. One possible but likely reason for these HIV-like segments is that they were meant to be epitopes, or molecular flags meant to mark intruders for a vaccine to target – meaning the Wuhan Strain was built as a monster for a specific vaccine to hunt. It is mathematically possible for this to happen in nature – but only in a ten-thousand bats chained to ten-thousand Petri dishes and given until infinity sense. Alternatively, this pattern could also be produced by infecting a room full of ferrets with a bespoke coronavirus and sifting through the wreckage for your genomic needle.”

On February 3rd I posted:
“"Uncanny similarity of unique inserts in the 2019-nCoV spike protein to HIV-1 gp120 and Gag"
This is a SARS type coronavirus. Its spike glycoprotein contains 4 insertions. The insertions are in a row. None have been seen in another coronavirus (low probability). All 4 are present in all human source samples of the Wuhan coronavirus - all four of which match up to HIV-1 sequences. They do not represent a single unbroken sequence from HIV-1; they come from four different places, but in this new coronavirus they’re all together (low probability). They each enable the new coronavirus to perform a task making the base coronavirus more survivable and more effective, as they are critical for the virus to identify and latch on to host cells, and for viral assembly (low probability for all four to be useful). It is considered unlikely a coronavirus would mutate to pick up 4 novel insertions so quickly, and it is obviously highly unlikely all 4 would match HIV-1 sequences, and there are no useless incidental insertions. Even if we do not parse these into separate events, there are unquestionably no less than three low probability events here with respect to the consideration that this virus arose spontaneously in nature. The researchers, at least some of whom presumably have more than a passing familiarity with virology, which is not likely to be the case with respect to the participants on this forum, have indicated a certain degree of surprise over these low probability events. That would arguably mean they expect it would be at least one in ten or less that they would encounter them or they would not register surprise let alone write an article that could at a minimum subject them to international embarrassment. In other words, people who are familiar with these phenomena are registering a reaction indicative of at least a “one in a thousand” surprise. If virologists believe it is a one in a thousand we would see this happening naturally, and the choices are a seafood market (which some argue is a discredited theory), or the only category 4 lab in China…draw your own conclusions. But keep in mind the question presented is not “what is the % probability the coronavirus was engineered,” but rather “is it more or less likely that the coronavirus was engineered”? These researchers are indicating it is a proverbial lead pipe cinch that it was engineered, using technical and polite language.”

The length of the four chains in question, while indicating each of the four bears no distinctive structure that could act as a signature indicating origin on its own, is a red herring argument. The issue is that there are four, in a row whereas they could have arisen anywhere in the enormous chain, that all four have HIV type function, and all four are in fact found in HIV. The authors who claim they have “clearly” debunked this argument have far lesser credentials than the original Indian authors, and are far less professional and polite in making their claims. Gratuitous use of the term “clearly” is a red flag of weak arguments.

“There is zero evidence that the virus is from a Chinese or U.S. or other (weapon) laboratory and the claim actually makes no sense. The genome of the virus consists of more then 23,000 'letters'. It is significantly different than the genome of other known viruses. (Added:) It is not lab made:”
We offer a perspective on the notable features of the SARS-CoV-2 genome and discuss scenarios by which they could have arisen. Our analyses clearly show that SARS-CoV-2 is not a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus."

To artificially create such a complex entity and to test all its variants would have been a program of the size of the Manhattan project and would have cost billions.
Weapon researchers are sane people with a limited budget. They look for methods to defeat an enemy. A virus that affects all humans indiscriminately but kills mostly very old ones would have no military value.”

How about a room full of ferrets instead? This is not something speculative. This is something that has already been accomplished – they’re simply getting better at it.

“This report is the product of a collaboration between a retired professional scientist with dozens of peer-reviewed publications and 30 years of experience in genomic sequencing and analysis, who worked at the Theoretical Biology Division of the Los Alamos National Laboratory and later helped design several ubiquitous bioinformatic software tools, as well as a former NSA counterterrorism analyst. It considers whether the Wuhan Strain of coronavirus (COVID-19) is the result of naturally emergent mutations against the possibility that it may be a bio-engineered strain – directly altered by genetic manipulation, subject to artificially-guided evolutionary selection, or both – most likely released into the public by accident since China’s rate of occupational accidents is about ten-times higher than America’s, and some twenty-times more than Europe’s, the only other regions with high-level virology labs….
Beijing has had four known accidental leaks of the SARS virus in recent years, so there is absolutely no reason to assume that this strain of coronavirus from Wuhan didn’t accidentally leak out as well….
Given that this outbreak was said to begin in late December when most bat species in the region are hibernating and the Chinese horseshoe bat’s habitat covers an enormous swath of the region containing scores of cities and hundreds of millions people, the fact that this Wuhan Strain of coronavirus, denoted as COVID-19, emerged in close proximity to the only BSL-4 virology lab in China, which in turn was staffed with at least two Chinese scientists – Zhengli Shi and Xing-Yi Ge – both virologists who had previously worked at an American lab which had already bio-engineered an incredibly virulent strain of bat coronavirus – the accidental release of a bio-engineered virus from Wuhan’s virology lab cannot be automatically discounted, especially when the Wuhan Strain’s unnatural genomic signals are considered….
– In 2002, Stony Brook first assembled a DNA virus from scratch, building a polio-virus, and providing proof-of-concept for the creation, alteration, and manipulation of DNA-virus genomes. Two years prior, a separate team had already built an simpler RNA-virus from scratch – choosing to engineer a coronavirus from the ground up, and even swapping out its vital spike-protein genes to make it more infectious. And a generation earlier, artificially enhancing selection by intentionally infecting countless series of lab animals with different viruses is understood to have created the H1N1 Swine Flu. Its Franken-genome has a mysterious untraceable genetic parentage and a “clear unnatural origin,” and H1N1 became the poster-child for a moratorium against gain-of-function research – experimentation that seeks to increase a pathogen’s virulence, creating a more effective double-edged sword to counter and learn from. A ban that was in place for years, but was recently lifted by the American government. In the case of H1N1, it wasn’t a question of if it’d escaped from a research laboratory, only whether it’d been designed as part of a weapons system, or been part of a vaccine trial….
– By 2015, conducting research that was met with an enormous amount of concern, scientists at UNC had successfully created a “chimeric, SARS-like virus” by altering the viral genome of a Chinese bat coronavirus’s spike-protein genes – sequences that code for the spikes that poke out from surface of viruses and allow them to unlock entry into hosts, in this case making the bio-engineered coronavirus incredibly contagious. This research raised eyebrows since it was clearly gain-of-function research, a practice banned in America from 2014 until December 2017 when NIH lifted the ban, specifically to allow research on this sort of virus. Looking at UNC’s gain-of-function research on coronavirus spike-proteins, which received its funding just before the ban was implemented and was only allowed to go forward following a special review, a virologist with the Louis Pasteur Institute of Paris warned: “If the [new] virus escaped, nobody could predict the trajectory.”…
– Another exceptional and atypical trait of the Wuhan Strain COVID-19 is that not only does it form its own clade, it’s calculated to have diverged from SARS and its other sister coronaviruses some 260 years ago. And yet in all that time, while it every other branch of the coronavirus tree was busy branching-off into countless variants, if it emerged naturally, COVID-19 somehow spent a quarter of a millennium as the lone known example of its clade, somehow not mutating into related lineages in all that time. Another simpler explanation is that this apparent hereditary distance and genetic uniqueness is the just the result of being altered in a lab. And although two distinct strains of COVID-19 have been identified, there’s no reason to believe this mutational differentiation happened before contact with humans in the winter of 2019. Additionally, when neutral sites, the specific points in the genome which most reliably show evolutionary change, were examined: COVID-19 looks even more evolutionarily distant from any of its possible relatives, which would make sense if all that evolutionary distance was gained by artificially accelerated generational turn-over in a lab.
– Also giving credence to the idea that the Wuhan Strain was bio-engineered is the existence of a patent application registered to a scientist from Wuhan that looks to modulate a coronavirus’ spike-protein genes – the precise region altered by Zhengli Shi at UNC to make a hyper-virulent strain of coronavirus, and whose alteration and adaptation would explain the Wuhan Strain’s unusual behavior as discussed above.”

There is no question in my mind Covid-19 was bio-engineered, there is no question in my mind Moon of Alabama is among the most valuable Internet resources for information and geo-political analysis, and there is no question in my mind b will not censor this post.

Posted by: Bruce | Mar 22 2020 17:57 utc | 37

NemesisCalling @36: You are not an epidemiologist.

My comments are informed by the blog post of a public health expert (a must-read - translate it if you can't read french) who talks about the need for wides-scale testing so that everyone infected can be treated early and effectively.

He explains that China, South Korea, and other eastern countries are fighting the virus effectively with this this approach, while Western countries are failing to contain the virus with "lock downs".


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 22 2020 18:00 utc | 38

The corporate debt liquidity squeeze intensifies, despite Fed credit injections.

“It’s brutal. We have never seen such a big move in such a short amount of time,” said Monica Erickson, a portfolio manager at DoubleLine. “This is the quickest and most severe I have ever experienced, and I was around for 2008.”

It's happening as I described in the "pro-demand" post: with the general meltdown of the global capitalist system, every capitalist is rushing to zero their positions (i.e. to the USD). The USD is getting stronger and stronger, but its "purchase power" is plummeting. When the crisis is over, those USD positions will have to be realocated to capital, which will plummet the USD. The working class will pay the price twice: first, then small and medium businesses are wiped out; second, when the excess USDs go back to the survivors (invariably, big business). The Western Civilization will survive - but it will be more oppressive and more inequal than ever before.

Posted by: vk | Mar 22 2020 18:00 utc | 39

A bit to add to VK's post 39.

This is what the "victims" of the Financial crash are doing. The sound is of drooling lips as they try to get "their" part of the "massive monetary give away" (MMGA) in the US.

It is not much better in France as small shopkeepers and markets have closed, (a feature of French living is to get better and fresher fruit and vegetables from producers) but supermarkets are raking in the profits.

Posted by: Stonebird | Mar 22 2020 18:12 utc | 40

"The virus isn't fake, but the CRISIS! is.

"Just a few reasons:

"- USA classified all discussion related to preparation for the virus;

"- suppression of testing;

"- failure to prepare despite urgent warnings;

"- blaming China for US/West lack of preparation (they have sufficient info);

"- failure to acknowledge and implement treatment;

"- rush of aid to Wall Street and corporations while slow-walking money to ordinary people (will we ever see that money?).!!"

It is not clear what you are trying to communicate. But I assume that you are arguing that "the Crisis is fake."
The 'reasons'that you give are not reasons at all- far from proving that the crisis is fake they are simply features of the crisis itself.

Far from being fake the crisis is as plain as day. While there may be debate over whether or not the disease is exaggerated, even falsified and nothing more than another seasonal virus, the crisis, internationally and locally is obviously real.
And the proof of this is that millions of people are not working or working from home, the streets are empty in the cities, the healthcare systems are dangerously overstrained, there is an obvious need to devise food distribution networks and to substitute alternatives for reliance on the marketplace to make decisions and the invisible hand to govern. And thousands are dying-which is very real.
All these things are real. Much more real than your irresponsible claim (@33) that 'inexpensive Chloroquine' will treat the problem. You don't know that, just as I don't know that it won't-though the weight of opinion is against what you advise which might well, in the unlikely event that anyone takes you seriously, prove to be fatal.

Posted by: bevin | Mar 22 2020 18:16 utc | 41

Paul Damascene @32: I don't see what is "fake" about this.

I think I was clear @15 when I said: "The virus isn't fake, but the CRISIS! is."

There was no need for a crisis. They knew the urgency of taking early action but did little to prepare. They knew the importance of testing once there was community spread but suppressed testing. And they have known about inexpensive effective treatments for over a month but hype the CRISIS! and point fingers instead of implementing it appropriately.

Also see my comment @33. They have built in delays to Chloroquine treatment that make it less effective. Naturally, this makes more expensive drugs like Remdesivir more likely to be necessary.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 22 2020 18:16 utc | 42

bevin @41: Far from being fake the crisis is as plain as day.

It's a manufactured crisis. The virus is real. The threat from the virus is real. But the crisis was unnecessary.

See my comment @42 for more.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 22 2020 18:19 utc | 43

b posted:

Meanwhile we learn more about the new virus and about possible therapies. This though isn't a reasonable one:

Trump .. Mar 21, 2020

HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE & AZITHROMYCIN, taken together, have a real chance to be one of the biggest game changers in the history of medicine. The FDA has moved mountains - Thank You! Hopefully they will BOTH (H works better with A, International Journal of Antimicrobial Agents) put in use IMMEDIATELY. PEOPLE ARE DYING, MOVE FAST, and GOD BLESS EVERYONE!

//comment: Trump advising X doesn’t make it nefarious. What he said was lifted straight off the F study.//

The claim that the anti-malaria drug (hydro-)chloroquine helps in SARS-CoV-2 infection cases comes from two Chinese studies which are only based on in-vitro tests on the virus and human cells

//yes, but such tests are v. useful, properly done, of course require further study investigation, etc. //

The doses were relatively high and chloroquine is know to have some bad side effects. There is also no sound way yet to get chloroquine into the lower lungs where the virus resides and where it would be actually needed.

// I don’t know about ‘lower lungs’ - but do know that the F Min. of Health, Buzyn, now quit/thrown out on 16 Feb. 2020, with much drama, and facing criminal charges (from a group of 600 docs), as she has now (March 2020) stated that she knew a ‘tsunami’ infection-wise was set to take off in Dec. 2019 (claims she read a blogger in Engl.) while in Jan-Feb she continued to spout ‘no danger for F ppl’, like it was all ‘far away’ and ‘Asiatic’… dirty Chinks implied (such words not used).

On 13 Jan 2020 Buzyn put chloroquine (xyz forms) on the F list of ‘poisonous’ substances. Which does not mean in law forbidden, but to be closely surveilled as to dose amounts, limited, never without much study, without tight script control, etc.

Very strange. I'm guessing it is cheap and effective - no max profits for Big Pharma.//

There is also a small French trial with chloroquine based on real patients but which is unfortunately invalid. It was a non-randomized study with only 42 patients of which 6 dropped out.

The researches counted the number of viruses before and after the medication to see if it works. But they only took swabs in the throat to look for viruses. During the cause of a SARS-CoV-2 infection the virus does start to multiply in the throat but it then migrates down into the lower lung. Only there does the virus begin to grow in really big numbers and to cause serious damage. While that happens the virus count in the throat region goes down. The French researchers did not know that.

There is more to be criticized in that French study. Gaetan Burgio, a geneticist at the Australian National University, summarizes his own critique: In short, all this hype on the clinical trial is based on a open label, non randomized and underpowered clinical trial on HCQ treatment against #COVID19 with viral load as an outcome that was not properly measured in 2/3 of the control cohort !!!

So to answer the question: What is the evidence of justifying using HCQ or CQ as a prophylactic or curative treatment against #COVID19. The simple or short answer is NONE. To ascertain it, we need a proper and powered randomized clinical trial .

// The small French trial was very significant. The mantra of having huge clinical trials with thousands of ppl is a Big / Gvmt. Med. Authorities, and even Pharma (they make up the results) scam, on occasion. (So as to sell drugs for life that have no / little / tiny effect, which can only be shown statistically with a huge population and some stat. trickery.) Ppl no longer understand small numbers imho. Randomized trials are not always necessary or even indicated, and they cost a lot…//

I am not shouting out here for French experts, at all. Of course much more needs to be investigated, but 'drugs that work' or are even 'random tries' from knowlegeable clinicians should be used. In fact, they have the moral obligation to do so - but can't if the substances are not available.

Buzyn is a piece of work. Wiki in Eng. v. short as there is lots to skip over and hide.ès_Buzyn

Posted by: Noirette | Mar 22 2020 18:27 utc | 44

Using the anti-Assad drivel broadcast by the sleazy BBC this evening as a guide, I'm guessing that has pretty much given up on the battle against Coronavirus and is now desperate to find a topic to serve as an instrument of DEFLECTION. Not a word about's ongoing campaign to reduce funding to UK's National Health Service - just fanciful, juvenile and highly embellished wall-to-wall drivel about Eevil Assad.

It's alarming that the UK Swamp apparently ranks Regime Change in Syria on an equal footing with defending UK citizens from Coronavirus.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Mar 22 2020 18:29 utc | 45

Deranged haters can’t stop their hate:

Garry Kasparov @Kasparov63 - 0:09 UTC · Mar 22, 2020

Why is CNN running Putin's propaganda? Russia's numbers are "low" because they are lying. They are always lying until proven otherwise. They don't take down misinformation, they take down the truth. I'm furious.

Notice the number of likes. When will The Eternal Russian start showing in U.S. theaters?

Posted by: S | Mar 22 2020 18:35 utc | 46

maybe garry kasparov would like to comment on indias numbers too?? but that wouldn't conform to the demonize russia memo in constant replay..

Posted by: james | Mar 22 2020 18:37 utc | 47

Bruce @ 37; Quite a read, thanks for that post.

Maybe we'll never know the complete truth about the origins of this latest virus, but, this I know for sure, there are people in charge, who would exploit the existing situation, and kill thousands, if not millions, to enhance their power and their wealth.

Posted by: ben | Mar 22 2020 18:38 utc | 48

oh wait! india doesn't have air pollution like iran and italy, lol...

Posted by: james | Mar 22 2020 18:38 utc | 49

@ 48 ben.. they're called capitalists.. there is money to be made!!

Posted by: james | Mar 22 2020 18:39 utc | 50

Two days before the first media reports back on Dec 30 about a "mystery" "viral pneumonia" outbreak in Wuhan, Pam Ho wrote an article predicting a worldwide pandemic for 2020. AND that it would derail the election in America, AND cause Tulsi Gabbard to drop out and return to Hawaii. All of which has happened.

This is the 1st mention of the coronavirus before they knew what it was, from, Dec 30 2019:

"Chinese health authorities said they are investigating 27 cases of viral pneumonia in the central city of Wuhan."

Although the prediction was for a worldwide pandemic for 2020 on Dec 28 just two days before that first media report, Pam Ho didn't predict it would be a flu virus, the prediction was for a...zombie virus. But still, here it is from Dec 28: Like, In The Year 2024

Posted by: Kali | Mar 22 2020 18:40 utc | 51

Sauna is your friend:

Dr. Dan Lee Dinke: All Corona-viruses have a common weakness:heat kills them. Specifically relative short exposure to 56°C. Breathing hot air in a sauna for 20 minutes will mostly clean the upper respiratory tract of corona-viruses, but a hair dryer can also help if no sauna available.
The video is worth to watch and could save lives through such a simple method.

Posted by: LP | Mar 22 2020 18:50 utc | 52

Same conclusion as the Swiss expert mentioned by the Rabbit
(by the French guy who first carried the large test on French cases; very critical of the current measures coz the mortality not higher than usual and it is only the people tested positive -if test were carried- that should be isolated, says that at the moment it is only in France, Italy and Spain that it is not under control...well, on that.. Africa anyone?)

Posted by: Mina | Mar 22 2020 18:51 utc | 53

Thomas Pueyo:
> Go hard right now. Order heavy social distancing. Get this thing under control.
Then, release the measures, so that people can gradually get back their freedoms and something approaching normal social and economic life can resume. <

This is nonsense - or at most axiomatic on the idea that if we crack down on the virus it can "disappear" and everything returns to normal.
No explanation at all as to how that happens.
Essentially b's diagram of a flatter and longer curve instead of an early peak was right. High intensity, overwhelmed health resources can lead to a lot of deaths of people who might well die in next 2 years anyway. And the alternative is an extended curve with the same infections spread over a longer period, but fewer deaths directly linked to Covid-19 (though many of the old and weak would die of another cause soon).

Pueyo offers the choice of a short curve, big peak of deaths, and a short curve small peak. Totally false.

Chloroquine doesn't work - forget it.

@5, John.
This is quite correct - though I wouldn't try to politicise it. I watched my 82 yo uncle die last year over 12 months. The final thing was lung failure and the cause of death was lung infection of some kind. He had not spoken a word for a year, and only showed a few flickers of consciousness in the last month. Cause of death as far as I am concerned was starvation as he was put nil by mouth 3 days before he died, the ventilator switched off and returned from the hospital to the residential home he had been cared for 2 years but one week.
(Not a criticism, staff at home and hospital were excellent and this is standard procedure which was explained to us).

People die, something gets put on the death cert. When someone dies in their 80s or 90s with Covid-19, the virus is often only taking a few months of unpleasant existence away.

Posted by: Michael Droy | Mar 22 2020 18:55 utc | 54

Jackrabbit 38 "He explains that China, South Korea, and other eastern countries are fighting the virus effectively with this this approach, while Western countries are failing to contain the virus with "lock downs""

I had thought we were doing ok here in oz until I found people flying in from overseas were not being tested and quarantined. They just have sign a form saying the will go into self imposed isolation for two weeks. I couldn't believe it when I found that was happening at this stage. Now we are going into lockdown but virtually zero community spread at this stage.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 19:03 utc | 55

About that bias fact checking site.

The detailed report start with incorrect info:

Factual Reporting: MIXED
Country: USA
World Press Freedom Rank: USA 48/180

And ends with blatantly biased and false claim:

Moon of Alabama utilizes factually mixed sources such as RT News, Fox News, as well as credible sources such as Bloomberg, NY Times, Haaretz, The Jerusalem Post, Politico, and blogs such as

The site info is not reliable.

Posted by: hopehely | Mar 22 2020 19:17 utc | 56

@LP #52
Wrong. The lower respiratory tract - the temperature is stable via mixing outside air with inside. Otherwise people could not survive in extreme cold or extreme heat situations.
The hot air might kill the virus outside; it won't kill the virus in the lower respiratory tract.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 22 2020 19:22 utc | 57

@JackRabbit #38
I do find it highly amusing the NemesisCalling - who has frequently posted anti-vax views - now considers epidemiological qualifications necessary.
In any case, I would point out that China is doing both lockdowns and extreme tracking.
South Korea is doing extreme tracking/testing with no lockdowns.
The US is doing lockdowns with no tracking and "voluntary" testing - it seems most of the West is also doing lockdowns but without the China/South Korea extreme tracking.
Russia has been very aggressive from the start with extreme tracking but hasn't had any lockdowns yet.
The economic consequences of lockdowns in the US - I've noted before - are going to be extreme in the US because of its high cost of living and highly complex, interdependent economic value chains.
Secondly, China has both high savings rates (albeit skewed by income inequality) as well as much lower cost of living. Some interesting details TAMU study - including that Chinese households had more assets in total than US households... in 2010!

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 22 2020 19:34 utc | 58

Mina 31

That is quite a time lag. I had thought it would be around seven days or so.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 19:36 utc | 59

The idea advanced on the last thread [by Vk and here @7 and 39 I think] that governments should be organized around something different than economics is sound and worthy of everyone's input, ideas and objections; discussion is needed and welcome.

International human to human discussion should take place. Human experience with nation state globalism has shown just how vulnerable humanity is to organized and institutionalized corruption; the actions of the leaders of individual nations have shown the nation state system cannot be trusted.

The Covid 19 pandemic has reminded us all that we as humans <= have a right to a government that is of our collective liking, we have learned that governments must serve the best interest of the most persons, not special interest of a few. Governments which fail to serve equal right, open access and equal chance to those it governs are prima facia legitimates. Covid 19 brought the meaning of the principle of self-determination to the forefront. Everyone's life is challenged by submicroscopic beast. It takes the cooperation of all of us, to save most of us, and it takes the corruption of a few, to ruin it all, for most of us.

Human rights come first, long before economics. No economic rationale can support the delay or justify the cost of failure for those entrusted with the power to act, should they fail to timely act with diligence on threat that human lives are in danger. Experience suggest it is not possible to leave the power, function, and direction of government to those whose responsibility it is to operate it <= something very different is needed.

Covid 19 was a wake up call, that makes real the unfulfilled and failed campaign promises in a never ending trail of campaigns. Its time for everyone to insist on truth, truth in media, truth in political campaigns, open book truth from those appointed to government, and to bring everyone's troops home. Its time for nation states to stop supporting the private oil and gas bandits, the MSM, or any other special interest, its time to make a single global currency that bears no interest and that does not require repayment of principal, its time for governments to stop arming belligerents, their own or those of anyone else (gun control should be transformed into between governments, weapons control and the persons of all humans everywhere should be equally armed), its time to stop one nation instigating or supporting regime change in another, and its time to deny government leaders from using the governments they lead, to enable private or corrupt profits. Every human has a right to life, liberty and to pursuit of happiness: <=governments were instituted to secure to mankind the enjoyment of the privilege of those rights; but it seems mankind has been lax in making these governments conform to their privilege of existence.

A $0 military budget, and no interest, no repay currency could bring the credit needed to create multi many places of employment, AWA fix ailing infra structures, improve access to, even make access globally universal. It could improve the quality of education and open to everyone<= fair play, access to capital (instead of venture capital expecting reward of profit, how about advances of capital in search of human progress). which could enable real progress on earth for mankind.

Its time to eliminate the dependency on, or even the existence of those monopolies nation states like to create out of thin air by using their power to invent by rule of law, powers that restrain true competition (license, privatized government ownership, special authority, patents, copyrights, and the private property ownership).

It time to stop over hyped , Wall Street multi global type greed which only exist because currency is used as control devise, instead of a facilitator. Nation states should facilitate humans to interact, in ways transparent to the nation state boundaries (Its economics, that encourages non sharing attitudes, that cause competitors to seek ways to use governments to restrain human inter action). Humans should try to replace foreign products with locally made goods and the foreign goods producers should be encouraged to make goods in places where the goods have a demand because demand produces jobs and provides opportunity, globalism organized to produce economic gains, often attempt to steal from locals the benefits of demand created by the locals. The local province rule should apply: that is if locals want to make it, multinationals should be denied. The billions saved to the global economy in unexpended energy consumption (no transport cost), could bring prices of goods and services to comparative advantage adjusted market price levels. I predict, the poor would prosper because they would have an opportunity to contribute to our global human society, and government would be re instituted to encourage and enforce equality for all to those it governs. Governments should restrain and deny wealth, but they should encourage and facilitate local competition. At one time people elected their representatives based on performance in accord to those ideals. Currency that carries no interest and that never needs to be repaid, challenges economic induced greed and redirects the efforts of mankind to providing that which is needed.

In 1949 the income tax in USA governed America was layered into tiers (where different tax rates were applied); the USA taxed those who made big bucks at 90% in its highest tier .. Seem to recall Briton had something similar [100% of everything over $150,000 pounds of taxable Income?]. From here => <=i made a table
year rate@personal taxable income level
1941 81% @$5,000,000
1942-1943 88% @$200,000
1944-1945 94% @$200,000 The tax limited to a 90% effective rate.
1946-1947 91% @$200,000 The tax limited to a 90% effective rate (85.5% >credits).
1948-1951 91% @$400,000 The tax limited to a 77% effective rate in 1948-1949, .
1952-1953 92% @$400,000 The tax was limited to an 88% effective rate.

corporate rate from I made a small table.
1942- 1945 40% > $50,000
1946- 1949 38% > $50,000
1950 42% > $25,000
1951 50.75% > $25,000
1952- 1963 52% > $25,000
1964 52% > $25,000
1965- 1967 48% > $25,000
1968- 1969 52.8% > $25,000

These numbers suggest a long winded story of useless corruption.

Posted by: snake | Mar 22 2020 19:39 utc | 60

MAGA - Trump promised us 2nd term. Yea MASA (Make American shit again) Oboma promised us in 2008 election, Change, change you can shit in.....

American graining fast on the Coronavirus race. Now ranking 3rd racing to the top. I sincere believe we will be No.1.

2-wks ago posted 3-times how nurses in Wuhan caring 2-mths old baby and sister? Good news the mother discharged and went to the hospital to thank the nurses. She is in quarantine now.

Coronavirus fight: "Nurse mothers" at isolation points. 3,253,890 views, Feb 23, 2020

Coronavirus fight: Woman grateful to nine nurses who take care of her children,

Sources: CGTN, Xinhuanet, SCMP and ZeroHedge.

Posted by: JC | Mar 22 2020 19:45 utc | 61

Your posts, or your line of thinking is now matching or very close to it, the reality we are seeing.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 19:52 utc | 62

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 22 2020 19:22 utc | 57
Wrong. The lower respiratory tract - ...

There is no mention of the lower respiratory tract in my post?

Posted by: LP | Mar 22 2020 19:56 utc | 63

Oops missed this one Going home....

Coronavirus fight: 9 nurses 27-day "temporary moms" for 2 kids. 141,901 views•Mar 9, 2020

Posted by: JC | Mar 22 2020 19:57 utc | 64

Peter AU 1 @ 59:

Chinese stats I've seen online showed that in the vast majority of COVID-19 patients, symptoms manifest within 14 days of contact with an infected person, and often within 11 days. One study did note someone developing symptoms within a 27-day timeframe, and it was this case plus possibly some others that influenced Chinese researchers to come up with the 14-day latency period. Otherwise they might have gone with a shorter period based on their data.

The 14-day incubation period for symptoms to appear represents the average time, to be used by medics as a guide.

Posted by: Jen | Mar 22 2020 20:19 utc | 65

Italy, air polution and respiratry illness.

In Italy, the arrival of the 2009 pandemic influenza A(H1N1) virus triggered an integrated response that was mainly based on the 2006 National Pandemic Preparedness and Response Plan. In this article we analyse the main activities implemented for epidemiological surveillance, containment and mitigation of the pandemic influenza and the lesson learned from this
experience. Overall, from week 31 (27 July – 2 August) of 2009 to week 17 (26 April – 2 May) of 2010, we estimate that there were approximately 5,600,000 cases of influenza-like illness (ILI) who received medical attention (with almost 2,000 laboratory-confirmed cases of pandemic influenza from May to October 2009). A total of 1,106 confirmed cases were admitted to hospital
for serious conditions, of whom 532 were admitted to intensive care units. There were 260 reported deaths due to pandemic influenza. Approximately 870,000 first doses of the pandemic vaccine were administered, representing a vaccine coverage of 4% of the target population. One of the possible reasons for the low uptake of the pandemic vaccine in the target population could be the communication strategy adopted, for both the general population and healthcare workers, which turned out to be a major challenge. Active involvement of all health professionals (at local,
regional and national level) in influenza pandemic preparedness and response should be encouraged in the future.

From wikipedia

The 2009 flu pandemic or swine flu was an influenza pandemic that lasted from January 2009 to August 2010, and the second of the two pandemics involving H1N1 influenza virus (the first being the 1918–1920 Spanish flu pandemic), albeit a new strain. First described in April 2009, the virus appeared to be a new strain of H1N1, which resulted from a previous triple reassortment of bird, swine, and human flu viruses further combined with a Eurasian pig flu virus,[8] leading to the term "swine flu".[9]

That's for the cockheads who still think this is nothing more than the flue and all Italy's woes are due to air pollution. Italy's numbers for the modern spanish flue pandemic can be compared to numbers for the current coronavirus pandemic.

This is the numbers in Italy for a bad strain of the flue which caused a pandemic "A total of 1,106 confirmed cases were admitted to hospital for serious conditions, of whom 532 were admitted to intensive care units. There were 260 reported deaths due to pandemic influenza"

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 20:25 utc | 66

The Corona Waltz (sung to the tune of Tom Lehrer's “Alma”)
The first one to drop out was Butti
found out voters don’t vote for snooty
then stealing his thunder came Amy
who knew she’d get more press on Monday
and joining hands, speaking of unity
Tom’s hammer came down with impunity
the blowout for Biden was certain
even better ’cause the commies are hurtin’!
Then came corona
Dems stuck with Joe, now it’s ovah
now that we need a new biz
where are Butti and Amy and Liz?

Posted by: bigchin | Mar 22 2020 20:27 utc | 67

When it comes to something like this pandemic you can really separate those who are part of the solution from those who are part of the problem, i.e. are selfish and/or contrarians i.e. plain ol' shit disturbers.

Let me say that the people on the front lines: all healthcare employees and volunteers from the food prep, to the cleaning staff, to nursing, physicians, caregivers, and so on deserve immense praise and support! Omg! They understand reality like no one else except patients and their loved ones/caregivers trapped in the throes of serious illness.

Health workers know what is needed, the best way to proceed and what needs to be administered and to whom specifically. When dealing with a pandemic on top of caring for patients with other illnesses, logistical planning and organization is critical not to overwhelm the system and put everyone at greater risk.

So Jackrabbit, back seat driver, knows as much as the next guy, as to which people in the tens of thousands of infected should or shouldn't get chloroquine. And you think young people, and whatever age people who are already wary of vaccines are going to go along with taking a potent drug normally administered for malaria?

And so you proceed to overwhelm the system, triaging who can tolerate the drug, and who can't, and then some won't want to take it and you end up with the same risks present everywhere. So much for that.

However, I agree that for very serious cases depending on tolerance it should be tried.

Now, Trump bears a great deal of fault in the mishandling of this pandemic. But what do you expect from an entitled, pompous ass who pretends he's an expert on everything, but was never fit to occupy the most powerful position on the planet? Whose fault is it that we're all stuck with this incompetent egomaniac clown???

And lucky for us this is the 1st major global crisis occuring at the end of his term and he can now be F I R E D. Now, I'm not saying Joe Schmoe will be much better, but there's still time to give the only sane person in the race, Sanders, a shot. Anyway, I won't say more on that here in this thread.

But I will say this, cause I'm very much into karmic irony. Rand Paul the weasel Senator responsible for holding up the Coronavirus tax relief Bill has just tested positive for the Covid-19. Gawd, I really hope he didn't come anywhere in close contact to Bernie this past week.

Anyway, looks like Rand Paul won't be an obstacle for a while.

Posted by: Circe | Mar 22 2020 20:31 utc | 68

Presumably a perverse exploitation...but cui bono?

"Why do inquests into alleged Covid-19 deaths need to be held without a jury, when all other ‘notifiable’ disease inquests will continue to have juries present?"

"Coronavirus Bill slashes safeguards in death registration"

@ off guardian

To Kill a Mockingbird...remember? "Deputy say...,Deputy say" (Atticus Finch)

Posted by: Walter | Mar 22 2020 20:44 utc | 70

Circe 68

There are several drugs that work well against the virus. Chinese are using several. This way a drug best suited to the patient and any other medication the patient is on can be used. If a patient begins showing side effects to one drug, they can usually be swapped to another. The Chinese doctors recommended no more than five days on chloroquine to avoid side effects. Chloroquine builds up in the system. The amount required in the system to kill bugs is lower than that where side effects start. From what I make of it body levels of chloroquine need to be carefully guaged. From what I have read, US will be using a ten day course.
I believe this is why Chia uses another pair of drugs as first choice and chloroquine is the backup drug.
But if used correctly, chloroquine is very effective against coronavirus, safe to use for most patients and cheap.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 20:50 utc | 71

@58 c1ue

Piss off, c1ue. You looking for a fight injerjecting yourself like that. Grow up.

And, yes, I am going to be on the forefront rejecting a mandate for forced Corona vaccination when the time comes. Chances are that the vaccine will not inhibit carriers, anyway, and will only mask or lessen symptoms, which poses its own set of problems.

I will try one of your tactics when you are backed against a wall:

"Well, if you don't like the quarantine, then work to change those elected reps who made the order."

So exactly how have I ever contradicted myself here or in past threads?

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Mar 22 2020 20:51 utc | 72

Just in case, there's "plans"...nothing to see, though.

With tongue in cheek, el grande caso the general in Charge, with such a campy suit and the bangles too. How cute. "Dog food" used to be the term in the Castro...

@ daily mail, pure's pretext, the beat of the rhyme.

>"The coronavirus crisis is forcing US military planners to look at 'extraordinary circumstances' and prepare for a range of radical scenarios, including the possibility of widespread domestic violence and the deaths of the country's top politicians.

In a report published Sunday, Newsweek reveals that standby orders were issued more than three weeks ago to ready Above-Top Secret contingency plans if 'all Constitutional successors are incapacitated' and martial law needs to be imposed across the country.

'We're in new territory,' one anonymous senior military officer told the publication.

Gen. Terrence J. O'Shaughnessy is the 'combatant commander' for the United States and would lead the country if Washington were crippled by the current Covid-19 crisis. "

Posted by: Walter | Mar 22 2020 20:56 utc | 73

@1 vk

If you'd ever tried to set up a business here in the UK, you'd realise pretty quickly that you are under complete and utter control of the government in every aspect and they own your business by dint of the taxes and the loans you have to take out from their banker friends, we have soft communism because the government owns you but pretends not to. Magna Carta is dead and it's only possible resuscitation would be a Runnymede 2 Electric Boogaloo.

Posted by: TJ | Mar 22 2020 20:57 utc | 74

@ 36 nemesis calling.. i enjoyed reading your post if it's any consolation.. keep on keeping on and ignore those who take cheap pot shots..

Posted by: james | Mar 22 2020 20:59 utc | 75

@75 James

Thank ya, sir.

I think, and this is just between you and me, that a depression will help America in the long run. And by putting down the beast, I think it will benefit the world in a far greater manner. Many have written here that when America falls, it will fall hard.

Those advocating to keep the economy chugging regardless of the virus can't seem to see the opportunity here. Speaking plainly, what else would you be advocating for when talking about destroying the American Empire then asking for many, many hard years for the average American? Or at least a level of living that will shock many. I understand that they don't want to hurt the American economy and so are advocating against lockdown. But I can't help rubbing my hands together and thinking to myself, "Praise Jesus! It has come."

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Mar 22 2020 21:10 utc | 76

@21 Walter

A revolution may yet be led by a computer, google Meena chatbot, all that is needed is some tweaks to train on some revolutionary manifesto and some added rhetoric and bingo!

Posted by: TJ | Mar 22 2020 21:13 utc | 77

This guy:

Note that A zoonosis is an infectious disease caused by bacteria, viruses, or parasites that spread from one animal species to another.

Zoonotic viruses are typically less potent, less virulent from original animal hosts to humans.

Covid-19 is atypical for Zoonotic Viruses. It is many times more contagious via human transmission than the regular bat virus. And it is different from bat virus.


Short and Sweet Version here:

Posted by: Kristan hinton | Mar 22 2020 21:16 utc | 78

with the strong flu epidemic, much more ppl got vaccinated against it
lately in France. i assume it s true for Italy and Spain as well.
any figure available ? what about the countries with
a lower death ratio?

Posted by: Mina | Mar 22 2020 21:17 utc | 79

In the unlikely event that nobody else has published this, rapidly aging, link to Jonathan Cook I am doing so.

It really is an excellent piece of journalism and highly recommended.

Posted by: bevin | Mar 22 2020 21:19 utc | 80

If anyone knows Italian, please help translate the part in an interview with Dr. Giuseppe Remuzzi (Istituto Mario Negri), who talks about how far back the first signs of COVID-19 symptoms appeared in Lombardy.

It should be around the 4:40 mark in this video:

Posted by: occupatio | Mar 22 2020 21:22 utc | 81

"...where are Butti and Amy and Liz?" bigchin@ 67
Treasuring big fat rainchecks from the DNC and the oligarch donors.Seemingly unaware that by the time that they come to cash them in- or take up those plum positions in the Biden Cabinet- their sordid and dishonest contributions to maintaining the rotten status quo will have made them unelectable.

Posted by: bevin | Mar 22 2020 21:24 utc | 82

In the interview above with Dr. Remuzzi, he seems to say that COVID-19 symptoms appeared in "ottobre, novembre, dicembre." If it is indeed October, then we have to totally rethink the entire timeline.

Posted by: occupatio | Mar 22 2020 21:25 utc | 83

Michael Hudson has a debt jubilee op-ed up at the Washington Post

Posted by: Bart Hansen | Mar 22 2020 21:29 utc | 84

Trump, China & COVID-19

Been giving thought to the hypothesis that the crisis is "manufactured." China raises the alarm, clamps down on movement of peoples, rapidly responds in dramatic fashion by rapidly building and outfitting two hospitals, and begins being as transparent as possible about what's happening. Most everywhere in the West ignores China's warning and continues business as usual, the only exception being the WHO. Trump downplays it all, calls it a "hoax," and continues his rah-rah efforts on the economy Focusing on Trade Deal--clearly not wanting anything to rock the boat and hopes the regular Flu-Reaper will hide what he expects as negligible effects. Indeed, the key here is the relatively low death rate from COVID-19 and what now appears to be the plan that its affects would be masked by the usual deaths caused by flu and lack of healthcare within Outlaw US Empire. But do note, it's China that raises the alarm and stirs the outbreak into a crisis. What follows is a series of Tsunami-like economic effects attacking mostly Western economies, the Outlaw US Empire's in particular--the popping of two massive Ponzi Schemes: Wall Street's NYSE and the Oil Patch's Frackers: neither of which were in danger of having their great falsities exposed to the wider world. The Federal Reserve's Fraud is complicit in both Schemes and is now also revealed. Further exposed is the dire nature of becoming sick and being unemployed within the Outlaw US Empire.

Altogether, at least five long suppressed truths related to the massive frauds engaged in by the Outlaw US Empire are exposed by the crisis manufactured by China--although when it comes to the question of human health and wellbeing, it certainly IS a crisis: 1) The utter lack of readiness to deal with a national health emergency, both regarding infrastructure and social policy; 2) The utter unwillingness to devote resources to the citizenry during such a crisis, preferring instead to bailout favored special interests; 3) The revelation of the Fracking Ponzi Scheme; 4) The revelation of the Stock Market Ponzi Scheme; 5) The revelation of the Federal Reserve's wholesale wastage of monies to finance the Ponzi Schemes; 6) The utter incapability of Neoliberal economic "theory" and its practitioners to deal with a supply-side crisis; 7) The total incompetence of TrumpCo to manage the crisis involving direct lies to Congress and citizenry about most everything about it. I'm sure more could be compiled, but in the eyes of those who raised the alarm, those seven are enough. I should also note that much of the above applies to the EU also.

Yes, and do carefully note how China, Russia and the West have responded. IMO, China's reputation's soaring now that they're sending tons of supplies and medics to Italy and other nations stricken by the crisis, while the evil nature of the Outlaw US Empire's amplified as it keeps its illegal sanctions in place, steals medical equipment from Italy where it's most needed now, continues to wage war, and does its utmost to deny help to its citizenry.

Whataya think Walter? Is that turning crisis into opportunity, and doesn't it now seem just a bit planned?

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 22 2020 21:38 utc | 85

Posted by: vk | Mar 22 2020 17:23 utc | 35

Some things never change:

No one could have predicted it?

I reckon Mnuchin is every bit the tool that Condi was.

Try to keep in mind that besides the Coronavirus we have the oil price collapse, stock and bond markets falling in a flat spin, supply chain stoppage, etc. still to come assuming we survive the pandemic. I can probably think up a few more, but will stop.

Enough chickens coming home to roost, it sounds like thunder.

Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 22 2020 21:41 utc | 86

"There was no need for a crisis. They knew the urgency of taking early action but did little to prepare. They knew the importance of testing once there was community spread but suppressed testing. And they have known about inexpensive effective treatments for over a month but hype the CRISIS! and point fingers instead of implementing it appropriately...."

You are wrong. The crisis was inevitable, after decades of neo-liberal plundering of the social services, particularly the Health Service, and the transfer of institutions from public to private hands, it was absolutely certain that the next epidemic would be transformed into a crisis of the sort surrounding us. In addition, as you are aware, we live in an era in which the "state" is regarded with widespread and justifiable suspicion. After generations of lying the population has learned not to believe anything the government says and to challenge its motives even where their actions are clearly the last resort of people forced to face realities which, in true post modern fashion, they have come to believe can be manufactured and transformed at will. In other words the ruling class, having control of the state, has discredited its authority and thus its ability to transcend short term class interests.
This is the crisis which will almost certainly mark the end of neo-liberalism. The crisis long predicted by those aware of the ideology's immense contradictions- the biggest of which is that it prevents society from solving the basic problems necessary to the reproduction of the species. Everything about neo-liberalism from its agricultural practises to its assaults on communal democracy plainly suggests suicidal urges. It is no accident that one of the founders of the neo-liberal school celebrated the 'creative' destructiveness of capitalism.

Posted by: bevin | Mar 22 2020 21:45 utc | 87

Israeli doctor in Italy: We no longer help those over 60

In my area of 1.5 million people confirmed cases went from 50 to 60. Deaths still at 1 and that was a cruise ship passenger over 70. I have been monitoring the EMS frequencies and I have heard only one call for the virus in the time I have listened over the last two days which is about 8 or 10 hours.

There are a couple of vacant hospitals that could be pressed into action but there is not talk of that sort of action. As of a couple of days ago...San Francisco ER doctor discusses the coronavirus pandemic and preparedness

"We're seeing more and more of the low and moderately sick patients. We're not seeing an alarming surge, but that's what we're preparing for," said Dr. Chris Colwell, Chief of Emergency Medicine at Zuckerberg SF General.

He said there are currently 17 patients admitted at the hospital of which at least three tested positive for the coronavirus with the rest under investigation.

The stay at home order seems to be working slowing down the rush into the hospitals. In addition, the elimination of all elective surgeries has freed up time and space.

Posted by: dltravers | Mar 22 2020 21:48 utc | 88

bevin @ 80; Thanks for the Cook article, and your 82 post. A hearty YES!, to both posts...

Posted by: ben | Mar 22 2020 21:49 utc | 89

Jen | Mar 22 2020 20:19 utc | 65

Thanks. Yes I had read about time for symptoms to a pear and so forth, but what I am looking for is time from confirmed infection until death. I guess that very much depends on how far advanced the illness is when confirmed. my thought is that the majority are confirmed when symptoms are showing.
Random or wide scale testing would catch many early in the infection, but where it is a patient seeking medical help, then it is quite likely into the symptom stage.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 21:52 utc | 90

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 22 2020 21:38 utc | 85

Yes, thank you, karlof1, good job.

Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 22 2020 21:53 utc | 91

"While the evasions and lubrications by the rich may stink as much as the flesh of rotting buboes, we'll need a plague mask to mask the stench of corruption emanating from Washington, DC this week."

Posted by: Duncan Idaho | Mar 22 2020 21:59 utc | 92

From the link dltravers @88 posted "Israeli medical doctor Gai Peleg told Israeli television that in northern Italy the orders are not to allow those over 60 access to respiratory machines."

There have been a number of these reports come out now. That means there are large numbers of under sixties in critical condition. Matches one of the earliest reports to come from the region in February. One of the first to die was middle aged and apparently no other conditions.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 22:04 utc | 93

Regarding one Tomas Pueyo, the Germans, one Ferguson fellow, the Black Swan 101 and their »collective strategy of religious hope« (copyright: Donald j Trump): Attention seeking & egomaniacs reign supreme these days. So supreme, that all reason is lost. All that's left is hope. Pure hope without proof, hope with no science behind, no nothing. It is in fact: a pure religion.

“It will go away”.

Attention seekers /Pueyo, Taleb/, panicked politicians /@all/ driven by panicked doctors (w/o protection, looking flatlined @ these »curves) would like you to think that there are only two possible strategies fighting this outbreak.

Mitigation and Suppression-the almighty.

In order for you to swallow down the whole Suppression, they first equate »Mitigation with Herd immunity« (Taleb, Pueyo) and furthermore - they equate that with the British Government actions (Do nothing & let the virus roam free far and deep).

If you swallow both of these pills, then – by now – you should scream helplessly in horror, locked away in dread. For years ;)


There was always another option: so obvious, it's funny. To Optimize the rate of infection, based on ICUs (+/- number of respirators) /dt.

On average, let there be 20 times as many infected as there are free ICUs (respirators) – that is your 5% »critical rate«. Now, to achieve that, you first quarantine all those over 80 (+ all those from 55,60-79 with known pre-existing medical records, comorbidities - that we know, will complicate the infection).

Only then, expected rate of »critical cases« falls well below 5% (lets speculate to around 2% or even less – and less, with time). So now you can increase the rate of infection of all the 0-50 (less than 1%@risk) - from 20 (x) to 50 times the number of »free ICUs« (the »fake red line« of Ferguson and Pueyo and the mighty horror of Taleb). The true »red curve« is not flat. It wasn’t t flat yesterday, it isn't today. At all. It grows with time. Almost exponential - within weeks. The dread red line is flat - only as long as the German policy stays 100%, brain dead. As a duck.

The number of »free ICUs » Europe-wide is free. Same - for the US. The »free ICUs » (medic teams, protective gear, respirators, medicine, beds....) should move freely within the Union and all around (yes, even to GB and back), so that no LOCAL health care systems go down and drowns, overwhelmed by German IQ. LOCAL means Bergamo, Merkel, not Italy. It could mean Madrid tomorrow, not Spain. And as far as your “Sunday elections” apparently caused the »sudden« 36% increase in Bavarian infection, well yes, Munich, the day after tomorrow (that one courtesy of Macron, no doubt).

Where Ferguson et all failed is they did n’t bring the (BoJo blown) curve down from 8 times the NHS free ISUs. It’s easy.

You regionalize the lockdown/s. Europe or countrywide.

Then, as your red curve slopes upward, one can release these regions »one by one« from lockdown. This is how your LOCAL health care system does NOT BREAK: This is how you free the industrialized regions first, to not collapse the economy and dismantle whole society into something lying in-between the fall of Rome and the beginning of the first Crusades. This is how you face the second wave, standing, not dead. Otherwise, wave#2 will smack you right »on the thick chin right under that emptied brain« - all over again... It is »hope« that it will not. It is religion.

This is the EUs train. The Brain-dead-train. To nowhere...

That is how you don't collapse the HC system. Not of country, but of a town or two. Or even three at once. Of a hospital or two within the LOCAL outbreak. Then: you sent them to Madrid, then, dear German people, when your time is up, we will send them back. A mysterious and sudden 36% surge? Here, dear Munich, with compliments and thanks.

But no. This is how this Union came around to fully embrace the original »American strategy«. Lock us down, then hope... in terror.

That is the:
»It will go away«.
And then »it will not come back«.

Won t you? Will, u...


Posted by: 433 | Mar 22 2020 22:04 utc | 94

TJ : TJ | Mar 22 2020 21:13 utc | 77 ( Runnymede 2 Electric Boogaloo.) is phunkin priceless, Dude! Y'da man!

When UK had the jubilee a few years ago they trotted out evey claim to imperial grace and claim, except, notably, magna carta. Helen Thoms and Wally exchanged notes on that, and "die heimat", er, "homeland" being a neologism in americanksi-talk. With the self-evident implications and (gasp!) links by family to the third opposed to the 4th.

......Wally made sally out to the bbox for XYL's baking...and inter alia notes that the crowd of unmasked scofflawz congregated at the Jolly Cone (out back of Dewdrop Parachute Company, seemed to be somewhat closely dispersed, their social distances being more or less zero.

Posted by: Walter | Mar 22 2020 22:04 utc | 95

the crisis manufactured by China...

@Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 22 2020 21:38 utc | 85

What are you doing?
Following White House directives?

The White House begins a propaganda plan to blame Beijing for the coronavirus pandemic. While Washington's aid is neither expected nor expected, other powers such as China, Russia, or Cuba send aid to affected countries.

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 22 2020 22:06 utc | 96

@ Posted by: occupatio | Mar 22 2020 21:22 utc | 81

I've already posted the English version in the previous thread.

Negri basically states that there was a "very strange" case of pneumonia in Lombardy in November 2019. From this he posits the SARS CoV-2 came to Italy much before or more or less at the same time as Wuhan (therefore, it may not be Chinese in origin).

Indeed, the SARS CoV-2 was probably fruit of intense globalization. It probably is the result of a very cosmopolitian evolutionary process.

The earliest sibling of the SARS CoV-2 that we know right now is RATG13, which is a common virus found in bats (it doesn't need to be a Chinese bat, bats all around the world have it). The bat is, therefore, the earliest transmissor we know of - but we know it is not transmissor zero, since we also know RATG13 and SARS CoV-2 have a common ancestor.

We also know the SARS CoV-2 is not a bioweapon because the mutations that made it contagious from human to human are still imperfect. That's right, folks: this is not the virus' final form yet. China is extremely worried about the second wave, because it could mutate more and become even more lethal (maybe even killing younger people).

Posted by: vk | Mar 22 2020 22:07 utc | 97

I live with a friend just outside Washington, D.C. In Nov.-Dec., we both had nasty colds that it took us weeks to get over. One of my brothers visited Sloan Kettering cancer hospital on Manhattan just before Christmas. Within days, he came down with a nasty case of what was classified as pneumonia. Within a little over a month, it killed him. When the details of how coronavirus kills people came out soon after his death, I couldn't help but be reminded of how his case progressed. His fortyish son spent a lot of time with his father in hospital, until he came down with a nasty cold that laid him up housebound for a week.

I strongly suspect coronavirus was spreading in the U.S. by the last months of last year.

Posted by: lysias | Mar 22 2020 22:07 utc | 98

Bart Hansen @84--

Thanks for the heads-up to WaPost Hudson's op/ed. He finally got his opportunity to make his pitch to the nation, although few will get the opportunity to read it.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 22 2020 22:08 utc | 99

: lysias | Mar 22 2020 22:07 utc | 98 "strongly suspect"

Indeed, so. Is His Pope-ness Catholic?

I too strongly suspect... A con, with a deadly ringer.

Posted by: Walter | Mar 22 2020 22:13 utc | 100

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