Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 24, 2020

Open Thread 2020-23

News & views ...

Posted by b on March 24, 2020 at 15:13 UTC | Permalink

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james

Of the 4 five-eyes countries the British colonised, the US and NZ signed treaties with the indigenous people, though even by that time some or many colonists would have become indigenous. Australia and also Canada by the sounds of it did not sign treaties. NZ from what I understand largely abided by treaties though US never has, but those treaties do become and are law. It was only in the sixties that aboriginal people here became citizens and had rights under the law and they could use the law to regain some control of some land. But law or white mans law also has a trump card - judges not only look at evidence for and against, but also take into account 'national interest'.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 25 2020 18:17 utc | 201

LIVE NOW! Virtual Press Conference - COVID-19 -- 25 MARCH 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4us_py7GUw

Posted by: JC | Mar 25 2020 18:22 utc | 202

Get read because it is coming "Fast and Furious"

Mobile phone industry explores worldwide tracking of users

Talks about global data-sharing to counter coronavirus will raise privacy concerns


link

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 25 2020 18:29 utc | 203

As Pepe Escobar announced: "London's Imperial College: the Wuhan strategy was a SUCCESS." But what made it a success was putting the needs of the people first and that of the economy second, a formula abhorrent to Western Neoliberals who want only the economy to succeed and to hell with the hoi polloi. Hopefully, this report will be widely circulated.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 25 2020 18:29 utc | 204

@ karlof1 @206

Thanks so much for the links to Dr. Motl and the brilliant Michael Hudson.

Motl, as the good Harvard patrician, seems to be nostalgic for feudal society underneath all his idealization of Enlightenment values. Ultimately, life will become brutal and short as it once was; but it seems to be what we have coming. Once upon a time, the King's knights on horse back could ride out into the countryside to "cull the herd" and restore order and economic stability. He believes people should just accept their lot and go back to their jobs, and habits.

Although Motl doesn't say it out loud--he's thinking--just let the virus run its course; let the morgues overflow; let the bodies be burned in open pits while the stench of burning flesh rises up to heaven. If Motl is not a member of the Ruling Class, then who is?

Michael Hudson really takes us all to school. His lesson brings us through history and economics:

"The virus has become a vehicle to bail out both the Landlord Class and the banks--and keep them afloat--while sacrificing the wage-earning population".

Posted by: Copeland | Mar 25 2020 18:49 utc | 205

@john brewster #150
Libertarianism is heavily subsidized by certain sub-classes of the uber-wealthy.
Hayek, for example, was literally imported into the US. George Mason University, for example, is held forth as a major recipient of Koch funding as well as being a center of libertarian economics.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 25 2020 18:51 utc | 206

Good x-ray of the Senate's bailout package:

US Senate’s Final Stimulus Bill-Why It Won’t Be Enough

Posted by: vk | Mar 25 2020 18:52 utc | 207

@ 207 oldhippie.. thanks for sharing that vignette.. very sad and i agree with your conclusions and observations..

@ 208 tj... that is positive... generally most people seem to be kind and generous people... the problem is with those running things - they tend to be the opposite..

@ 211 peter au... thanks for that overview... canada signed many treaties, but did not get all of it done.. so it is a mixed bag for all of canada.. here in b.c. is one of the provinces that never had many of these treaties signed or ratified.. i believe here in the community i live in, chunks of the city core were never worked out.. thus every time i go to a concert, or play a show - someone makes the announcement before the show that we are on the traditional land of the '....' people.. can't spell or remember the exact word to share it here..

Posted by: james | Mar 25 2020 18:52 utc | 208

1/ Britain's best journalist lives in Nazareth:
"You can almost smell the fear-laden sweat oozing from the pores of television broadcasts and social media posts as it finally dawns on our political and media establishments what the coronavirus actually means. And I am not talking about the threat posed to our health.
"A worldview that has crowded out all other thinking for nearly two generations is coming crashing down. It has no answers to our current predicament. There is a kind of tragic karma to the fact that so many major countries — meaning major economies — are today run by the very men least equipped ideologically, emotionally and spiritually to deal with the virus.

"That is being starkly exposed everywhere in the West, but the U.K. is a particularly revealing case study.......
...Neoliberalism” became a mystifying term used to reimagine unsustainable late-stage, corporate capitalism not only as a rational and just system but as the only system that did not involve gulags or bread queues.

"Not only did British politicians (including most of the Labour parliamentary party) subscribe to it, but so did the entire corporate media, even if the “liberal” Guardian would very occasionally and very ineffectually wring its hands about whether it was time to make this turbo-charged capitalism a little more caring.

"Only deluded, dangerous Jeremy Corbyn “cultists” thought different..."
https://consortiumnews.com/2020/03/24/covid-19-our-leaders-are-terrified-not-of-the-virus-of-us/

2/ vk@205 You are right. There are, amazingly enough, more balanced opinions to be found today at the MI6 Guardian itself than there have been recently at a site that used to be its fiercest critic.

3/ PeterAU, unless I am mistaken, made the point earlier in this thread that in the British dominions/settler colonies land ownership was never absolute.
That is the case, despite lawyers, regarding land title in the UK too: the ultimate owner of real property is the Crown.
This does not differ greatly from the view of indigenous people for whom the idea of land ownership is a nonsense: use of the land made by ceded to individuals or families for limited periods but ultimately the land belongs to society as a whole.
The difficulties in negotiating land claims with those who, clearly, never ceded their land (and the case with those who were cheated out of their lands by lawyers, surrounded by soldiers, telling lies-or Treaties as they are called- differs little) arise because the Federal government (or its equivalents) insist on indigenous people accepting the ideology of private property. They want to make indigenous people into landowners, (following the US example) confident that, after a relatively short period the moneylenders will own all their land. See pioneer settlers for example: how many of those 100 acre or 160 acre family holdings are left?

Posted by: bevin | Mar 25 2020 19:03 utc | 209

@218 What precisely is the thinking behind such announcements james? Is it to make you feel guilty? Is a Traditional Land Tax included in the price of the ticket?

Posted by: dh | Mar 25 2020 19:11 utc | 210

@ dh.... good question... it strikes me like more politically correct posturing - which trudeau jr. is very good at.... i kind of roll my eyes when it happens.. it is hard to take it seriously... they need to work out the details and skip with the jive ass politically correct stuff... and no tax included in the price - but that might be coming!

Posted by: james | Mar 25 2020 19:20 utc | 211

@ 219 bevin.. what you say here is true as i see it too..

" telling lies-or Treaties as they are called- differs little) arise because the Federal government (or its equivalents) insist on indigenous people accepting the ideology of private property. They want to make indigenous people into landowners, (following the US example) confident that, after a relatively short period the moneylenders will own all their land. "

this whole concept of private property has been rammed down everyone's throat and is one of the main tenets of capitalism... it is code for the 1 % rapacious class to continue to rule..

Posted by: james | Mar 25 2020 19:25 utc | 212

Ireland takes action: "Postal delivery workers in the Republic of Ireland are to check on elderly and vulnerable people as part of their rounds."

UK issues statement: "[Royal Mail] takes the health and safety of its colleagues, its customers and the local communities in which we operate very seriously."

I wonder if, by the time this is over, residents of Northern Ireland will want to rejoin their cousins to the south.

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Mar 25 2020 19:32 utc | 213

Copeland @215--

Thanks for your welcome reply! But when will Pompeo finally cease to talk as he continually lies about most everything? If I were Chinese leadership, I'd never allow him to set foot on Chinese soil again.

Some of us realize that money's worthless without having good health and that something's very wrong fundamentally if one must have money to have good health. By putting the welfare of their people first and foremost, nations like China and Russia will always have the moral high ground over those nations failing to do that, led most prominently by the Outlaw US Empire. IMO, at some point a reckoning must occur. Last night, my wife and I discussed the three possibilities: reform via electoral politics; reform via insurrection; voting with feet by moving to nation with matching moral standards, all of which I've written about at MoA over the past years. The result being admitting to the very unlikely chance of reform via politics; the possibility of winning an insurrection being slim and most certainly far deadlier than the Civil War; with voting with our feet unlikely due to my age and her familial responsibilities. IMO, the citizenry is within its moral rights to foment resurrection to alter the political-economic system; and once captured, to direct the military to repatriate the wealth stolen by the oligarchy and hidden away in offshore no-tax havens. For if you read Hudson closely, the gross fraud perpetrated on the people of the USA began in 1982 under Reagan/Bush almost 40 years ago and has continued unabated ever since.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 25 2020 19:33 utc | 214

James 218 - "every time i go to a concert, or play a show - someone makes the announcement before the show that we are on the traditional land of the '....' people.."

This occurs at all venues or performing arts companies which receive any amount of public funding, at least in British Columbia.
It seems to be a requirement attached to receiving the funding, quite likely the result of contemporary treaty/land use negotiations. Although the news was largely downplayed, court proceedings in the mid 1990s revealed that, unlike most of Canada, there were few if any treaties signed with British Columbia's indigenous peoples. Technically, they were never legally displaced and most BC residents are in effect squatting.

Posted by: jayc | Mar 25 2020 19:58 utc | 215

@Posted by: 433 | Mar 25 2020 14:54 utc | 195

Today, Germany an the Netherlands blocked the "coronabonos" asked for by the most hit y the pandemic countries in the EU, Spain, France and Italy....

Today also. we know that it seems that even before declaring state of alarm and mandatory quarantine for all except essential services, Spain asked for help to NATO...to no avail...Why would NATO refuse to help Spain who holds its nuclear weapons alomg key facilities of AFRICOM?

Of course, this is being hide from the population, only people who takes the trouble to keep itself informed through the net gets to know...otherwise, I guess, once people is freed, they would be in the streets calling for their countries getting out of NATO and expelling all the foreign, especially US, troops from their soil...

Imagine if moreover it would be discovered that the virus could have escaped from any foreign military facility inside the country...in that case, it will be a violent revolution in case they do not go by their own...There is a carnage right now in Madrid and Lombardy...Still remember the first patient in Madrid reported in Torrejón de Ardoz ( look for coincidences over there...)

In Spain, people do not like to lose their elders by lack of medical attention...simply, they love and care for them way too much, and, simply, they are not accustomed to such savage behavior...not since 1936....

What they have in common all the first places in which the outbreak took place almost simultaneously, or few days after, without any epidemiological connection explainable in time and rapid grow of cases and virulence?

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 25 2020 19:58 utc | 216

@ 225 jayc... that is correct on all accounts.. thanks for reiterating some of what i have said here too..

Posted by: james | Mar 25 2020 20:03 utc | 217

WE in New Zealand are in full lockdown, after 205 reported cases of Covid-19.
( No Deaths so far )
Everyone confined to their homes, except for essential services (Food/Medical)
Allowed out for a walk around the block; or a food trip..thats it..
Police/ Army out checking that 'no one breaks their bubble'

I was in China when Xi JinPing stepped up and stepped out to lead his country into a
largely successful campaign against Covid-19.
He emphasised that truthful reporting of facts was mandatory.. Try

https://asia-review.com/2020/03/20/no-china-didnt-cover-up-the-covid-19-outbreak/

In my view our PM Jacinda Adern's magnificent speech on 23rd was its equal in terms of leadership.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2020/03/23/1096999/pm-jacinda-arderns-full-lockdown-speech..

US: Chaos- lead from the top

Posted by: David K | Mar 25 2020 20:11 utc | 218

Karlofi @ 224
You sum it all up perfectly there ! 40 years ago sounds about right, that was when Margaret Thatcher said ‘’ There is no such thing as society ‘’
Proceeding to exchange the working class factory’s ect for cheap labour abroad ! Loose/loose.
We moved on with Blair conditioning the public to evading other country’s based on lie’s rationisation gradisation. From there we learned to disregard from our minds the suffering of our victems (home and abroad) devaluing refugees as humans, replacing the working class with a micro chip.
Finally we are ready to simply despence with the lower 50 % of the world populace
All that remains is to prepare the pits and quick lime. And all in my life time!
I’m against it and will fight it.

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 25 2020 20:16 utc | 219

@221 New 4x4 trucks for everyone in the tribe....that should fix it. I understand they already get tax free gas.

Posted by: dh | Mar 25 2020 20:18 utc | 221

So the final (peer-reviewed version) of the WTC7 report has just been published. I was banned back in September for discussing the draft report, but I am hoping that b will allow discussion of this final version. To show respect to b, I won't be commenting further on the report until I hear from b as to what the ground rules are. I have seen b change his mind on issues when he is presented with new information. I am hoping to see his detailed analysis on this report, and on what is implied...

Final WTC7 Report

Posted by: retiredmecheng | Mar 25 2020 20:24 utc | 222

@232

I see that the link I provided doesn't work. Perhaps someone more familiar with the setup can provide a link. It is on the ae911truth.org website.

Posted by: Jim A Ryan | Mar 25 2020 20:27 utc | 223

More on NZ lockdown...
The official site
https://covid19.govt.nz/

Posted by: David K | Mar 25 2020 20:28 utc | 224

Article of interest from RT:

"How lethal is Covid-19 really? Fatality numbers from Italy are misleading"
https://www.rt.com/news/484098-coronavirus-fatality-rates-exaggerated-italy/

OffGuardian is getting criticized from a couple people here? Funny:D

Posted by: SharonM | Mar 25 2020 20:37 utc | 225

Some countries are ignoring Chinese measures on total shutdown, but taking advantage to follow Chinese path on mass surveillance measures through big data...what is really worrying..

https://twitter.com/descifraguerra/status/1242839828019826689

The government of Spain has launched a project to collect anonymous data from the mobile phones of the population, in order to understand the movements of the people and stop COVID-19.

The objective of this project is to know if the restrictions imposed by the alarm state are met. The third vice minister, and minister of Economic Affairs and Transformation, Nadia Calviño, has assured that there is no personal data involved.

One wonders, how do you collect data from mobile phones of the people without those data being personal?

This is an alibi to set up measures to tightly control the population and taking out with their rights, because if they really wanted to stop Covid-19, they would shut down every activity, as they did in China, measure whose main opponent was precisely this Spanish economic minister...whom some in Spain consider practically a German agent..

https://twitter.com/evangershkovich/status/1242776592226693124

Good overview by @felix_light of how Russia is putting its facial recognition system to use in the battle against the coronavirus. “The use of facial recognition here is really a legal grey zone. And we don’t really know where it might lead next.”

But why use intimacy invasive methods to fight Coronavirus, when you have not even shut down completely, which proved to be the most effective measure in China...

https://twitter.com/27khv/status/1242744299072237568

What is being cooked here? 1984?


Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 25 2020 20:48 utc | 226

Mark2 @229--

Thanks for your reply! Everyone must fight the Neoliberals however they can as their aims and philosophy are far worse than what Hitler had in mind--and that's not hyperbole!

DavidK @228--

Thanks for the link to the debunking article; it's very good. Unfortunately, I get a 404 from the link to the NZ PM's speech.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 25 2020 20:59 utc | 227

==> Karlof1 @224
"Last night, my wife and I discussed the three possibilities:
reform via electoral politics; reform via insurrection;
voting with feet by moving to nation with matching moral standards"

You could try relocating to NZ
But you's have to wait behind the queue of billionaire investors
looking for a safe haven...bringing with them the same attitude
that destroyed their country, to ours
E.G
Billionaire investor and Trump supporter Peter Thiel became a New Zealand citizen in 2011.
He bought a 193 hectare estate on Lake Wanaka in 2015 for $13.5 Million

He then showed Capitalism at its finest..His chief local investment vehicle,
Valar Ventures, exercised a buyout clause in its partnership with the
New Zealand Venture Investment Fund and was then able to claim all profits
from the venture before bailing
Thiel contributed $7m; the buyout led to profits of at least $23m for Thiel,
while the NZVIF and taxpayers were left barely breaking even.
Great citizen ..NOT

Posted by: David K | Mar 25 2020 21:29 utc | 228

I like Jonathan Cook and think highly of his latest article that calls Neoliberalism and its followers a "cult." But I implore him and all other writers to stop calling what occurred between 2007 and 2009 a "financial crisis" because it was much more than that and not calling it out for what it was actively abets Neoliberal cultists--What happened between 2007-9 was the maturation of a huge series of massive frauds, RICO-worthy crimes that ought to have put all those guilty into prison until they died. It made the ENRON fiasco look like child's play. Both GW Bush and Obama broke the law and their oaths of office by failing to prosecute any of those guilty--only a few small fry ever saw jailtime, and those prosecutions were done by state AGs.

The CRIME caused what was then deemed a crisis; but was it genuinely? Yes and No. No, if justice was invoked, all the financial entities nationalized, the criminals tried and imprisoned, and the politicians abetting the fraud ousted from office and if found guilty also put into prison. Yes, if the entire situation was to remain in private hands with no justice done and trillions stolen from the public to bail-out the criminals. The crisis only became one because it was allowed to reach that point. And today, a similar process is at work. Already close to ten trillion have been showered on the same criminals as before with the same result--a massive wastage of resources with nothing to show for the effort. Einstein's insanity model is in full bloom. Max Keiser calls it a money-printing pandemic, and he's 100% correct. It must cease now and the entire financial apparatus placed in quarantine prior to their being nationalized. Once nationalized, the debts can be written down and money can begin to reflow into the productive economy which requires massive amounts of resurrection for the nation to become resilient.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 25 2020 21:36 utc | 229

Hail, Comrade Britney! Pop princess Spears calls for strikes and redistribution of wealth as the Covid-19 crisis engulfs the world

After all these years of celebrity worshiping cum political activism culture in the USA, we've may have found out that Britney Spears is the Chosen One.

Posted by: vk | Mar 25 2020 21:37 utc | 230

==> Karlof1 @224

Video excerpt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egt_06b_rK4

Text
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2020/03/23/1096999/pm-jacinda-arderns-full-lockdown-speech

Makes me quite proud... PM and new mother :-)

Posted by: David K | Mar 25 2020 21:43 utc | 231

Hey vk, you criticized this article from OffGuardian,"Italy: Only 12% of “Covid19 deaths” list Covid19 as cause.":

"This OffGuardian piece is fake news...
OffGuardian's piece is ignorant, reckless and dangerous."

Bevin said this:

vk@205 You are right. There are, amazingly enough, more balanced opinions to be found today at the MI6 Guardian itself than there have been recently at a site that used to be its fiercest critic."

Now that RT is headlining what OffGuardian has been reporting, would y'all care to comment?


Posted by: SharonM | Mar 25 2020 21:52 utc | 232

DavidK @238 & 241--

Thanks much! Just finished her speech and say you Kiwis are quite fortunate. I'll assume the financial measures put into play are fair and not anything like the crap being planned to dump on US citizens. That's an example of what a moral government would do. Here's to life returning to normal by the end of April!

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 25 2020 22:07 utc | 233

@ 231 dh... there is some truth to that too! it is like much else in life - it is who you know and what power do they hold, in your acquiring some of the booty.. same deal with the indian reserves unfortunately... human nature i guess.. you are either friends or family of the chiefs, or you are '''low man''' on the totem pole!!

Posted by: james | Mar 25 2020 22:36 utc | 234

Sharon M @ 242
The answer is all there in your comment. Train your mind to see beneath the surface !
The U.K. is anti-Russia, Putin owes Britain zero favours.
For myself as a Corbynite I’m tired of seeing - - - The Labour Party curupted ditto Momentum, the gardian now off-gardian by the media mogals ,Tory’s and Israel lobby groups. Same sh—t different day yawn.
Your comenter name is that as in ‘Rose of Sharon’ ?
Best regards Mark2.

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 25 2020 22:44 utc | 235

Pompeo (Reuters)
"“My concern is that this cover-up, this disinformation that the Chinese Communist Party is engaged in, is still denying the world the information it needs so that we can prevent further cases or something like this from recurring again,” he added.

Pompeo also accused Iran and Russia of waging disinformation campaigns about the virus."

The bastion of freedom, democracy and humanitarian stuff. Never letting a good disaster go to waste,
Stealing commandeering and hoarding medical supplies for itself, using the pandemic to try and further their geopolitical aims.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 25 2020 22:46 utc | 236

@ Posted by: SharonM | Mar 25 2020 21:52 utc | 242

It's very simple, actually.

The mortality rate of the COVID-19 is indeed low for pandemic standards. However, it is over 10% in Italy and near 5% at one point in Spain.

To explain Italy's high mortality rate (on par with the Spanish Flu), a famous Italian doctor speculated that, given the COVID-19 is a pandemic, then it must be infecting at least 1/10 of the entire Italian population. From there, he posited 640,000 Italians were infected, the 64,000 only being the gravest cases. From that denominator, Italy's mortality rate would fall to 1% - more akin to Wuhan (1.4%). To put it simply, the Western nations are betting on their own incompetence to state mortality is much lower than it seems.

The OffGuardian article approaches the numbers differently. Since many infected were admitted initially as pneumonia patients, OffGuardian posits there are actually two diseases infecting Italy at the same time: the "strange pneumonia" that exists in Italy since at least November and the COVID-19. They suspect the pneumonia was arbitrarily "fused" with the COVID-19 cases, so that only 19% of the dead were actually COVID-19 victims. That would, again, drop the mortality rate to the 1% range.

The first lacks empyrical evidence, but at least can be tested (you just need more tests). The second one is absurd: they killed the principle of Occam's Razor out of the blue just to forge a lower mortality rate.

I've already posted here a paper that speculates - with the available evidence - the causes Italy was particularly hit. I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

Posted by: vk | Mar 25 2020 22:48 utc | 237

"lockdown" ... Tokyo-style ...
https://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/20200325/k10012350171000.html


また、小池知事は「今週になりオーバーシュートの懸念がさらに高まっており、今まさに重要な局面だ。平日についてはできるだけ仕事は自宅で行い夜間の外出は控えてほしい」と述べ、都民に対し、都主催の大規模イベントを原則、延期や中止とする措置をとっている4月12日までは、平日はできるだけ自宅で仕事を行って夜間の外出を控えるよう求めました。

そして、「週末は急ぎでない外出は是非とも控えていただくようお願いしたい」と述べ、特に今週末は不要不急の外出を控えるよう呼びかけました。
そのうえで、外国から帰国した人は帰国から14日間、外出を自粛することや大学などでは新学期の開始時期を遅らせるなどの対策を要請しました。

Governor Koike of Tokyo requests the public to work from home as much as possible, to avoid going out on weekdays, and to refrain from going out on the weekends.

... and the people responded by panic buying items at the supermarket ... it's like 3/11 all over again ... people didn't know the truth about the reactors in Fukushima ... again we don't know the full truth about corona.

Posted by: r | Mar 25 2020 22:50 utc | 238

SharonM
Both RT and Sputnik are tabloid sites that are happy to print rumors along with solid news.
Recent case of the '14 year old' shot by Americans in east Syria.

Total deaths in Italy can be judged by the crematorium work load. There it becomes plain there is a massive increase in total death rates as the epidemic takes hold.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 25 2020 22:55 utc | 239

I must express my sincere appreciation for the superb commentariat in presence here! Thank you so much for confirming my faith in my kin.

Posted by: donten | Mar 25 2020 22:56 utc | 240

Bernie Sanders live on items that he opposes in the Coronavirus bill.

https://youtu.be/tVm5d7nRaPo

Posted by: Circe | Mar 25 2020 23:18 utc | 241

vk
Medical care is the biggest influence on death rate.

If we only had 1918 medical, death rate would be on par with Spanish flue. Different demographic but similar percentage of population.
Most countries where there is only very gradual rise in confirmed cases show an exceptionally low death rate as each patient can recieve maximum medical care.
What we do not know yet are the numbers that have survived but have permanent lung damage.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 25 2020 23:22 utc | 242

Apparently Prince Charles has tested positive for COVID-19. It's too bad Prince Andrew wasn't.

Posted by: Ian2 | Mar 25 2020 23:22 utc | 243

@Allen #202
I would look to see if the original source of data is listed, and to look at that.
There are some publications, but they're still early. The one study I've seen looked at 355 deaths - which
1) Are the early deaths
2) Italy differentiates between died *with* COVID-19 vs. died *of* COVID-19

Generally speaking, I'd be suspicious if there isn't underlying data to look at - to understand where the conclusions are coming from.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 25 2020 23:23 utc | 244

c1ue 254

Corona virus has become very political and the deaths are a political item. Perhaps the best place to look is total deaths historically vs total deaths during corona virus.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 25 2020 23:38 utc | 245

@ Peter AU1 | Mar 25 2020 23:38 utc | 255

Deaths 2020: ~135,300

Deaths 2019: ~579,000

https://countrymeters.info/en/Italy

Death rate in 2020 seems to be pretty much average, that is, if the numbers are accurate.

Posted by: Hmpf | Mar 25 2020 23:55 utc | 246

"OffGuardian is getting criticized from a couple (of) people here? Funny:D" SharonM@235

Fair enough Sharon. Articles in The Guardian currently reflect the fact that the ruling class has no idea what is hitting it or what to do about it. The current crisis has completely unmasked neo-liberal ideologies, which have dominated political discourse-globally- for decades and have led to the implementation of policies which have directly caused the deaths of millions and the impoverishment of billions.
Now, in the face of the life and death urgency of a pandemic, the ruling class and its pilot fish, the media, punditry and Academy, are visibly naked in all their selfish greed. It is evident that it was not conservative accounting but callous disregard for human life which lay behind the policies of Austerity and cutbacks to social services and that this can no longer be denied.
Meanwhile at OffGuardian, screed after screed is issued denying that there is a crisis. Or, if there is one, that there ought to be. Or that the pandemic is a hoax choreographed by the villains behind 9/11, the Kennedy assassinations and the car crash in which Princess Diane was killed.

Posted by: bevin | Mar 26 2020 0:00 utc | 247

Hmpf 256

Does look average. On the other hand, military convoys moving coffins to crematoriums in other regions or towns does not look to be a political stunt..

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 26 2020 0:10 utc | 248

Call it what you will: errors, missteps, ignorance, inexperience, other priorities, lack of will, lack of resources, etc. Bernie ceded the black vote to the Democratic establishment led by Biden. What is most telling is this:

Sanders also paid a price for his reluctance to speak publicly about his role in the civil rights movement, some allies felt, despite having an impressive story to tell about impassioned activism that included an arrest at a 1963 protest.

Sanders needed to run against a Party that was running against HIM. He had to explain why his takeover of the Party was in the best interest of blacks and others. Instead, Sanders ran a simple campaign 'on the ground' while allowing national media to pick apart his "revolutionary" 'democratic socialism'.

Many still make excuses for Sanders. However, "Bernie" is a seasoned politician that KNOWS what it takes to win. He simply chose NOT TO WIN (a second time). And in doing so, he has served the Zionist, EMPIRE-FIRST establishment. Bernie's establishment friends: Hillary, Schumer, Pelosi, Obama, Biden, et al. could not be more pleased.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 26 2020 0:17 utc | 249

@247 vk
This is what you said:
"The mortality rate of the COVID-19 is indeed low for pandemic standards. However, it is over 10% in Italy..."

Here is what the RT article said:
"But the key point to take away from this is that the 10 percent mortality rate being reported from Italy is grossly misleading."

This is what the OffGuardian article said:

"The president of the Italian Civil Protection Service actually went out of his way to remind people of the nature of Italy’s fatality figures in a morning briefing on 20/03: "I want you to remember these people died WITH the coronavirus and not FROM the coronavirus”
What does this actually mean?
It means that the Italian death toll figures could have been artificially inflated by up to 88%. If true, this would mean the total number of Italians who have actually died of Covid19 could be as low as ~700. Which would bring Italy, currently a statistical outlier in terms of Covid19 fatalities, well in line with the rest of the world."

You also said this, vk:
"The OffGuardian article approaches the numbers differently. Since many infected were admitted initially as pneumonia patients, OffGuardian posits there are actually two diseases infecting Italy at the same time: the "strange pneumonia" that exists in Italy since at least November and the COVID-19. They suspect the pneumonia was arbitrarily "fused" with the COVID-19 cases, so that only 19% of the dead were actually COVID-19 victims. That would, again, drop the mortality rate to the 1% range."

There is nothing in the OffGuardian article, that you called "fake news", about pneumonia. The word "pneumonia" is not even mentioned in the article.

@249 PeterAU1
You said this:
"Both RT and Sputnik are tabloid sites that are happy to print rumors along with solid news."
You are implying that the article on RT is the stuff of tabloids, even though it was written by a guy with a degree in genetics from the University of Glascow, who is a science journalist. You should read the article again. There is nothing sensational about it.

You also said this:
"Total deaths in Italy can be judged by the crematorium work load. There it becomes plain there is a massive increase in total death rates as the epidemic takes hold."

Destroying the evidence--the alleged victims of this flu--should be taken as evidence? That makes no sense to me. We won't know what they are dying from if they're cremated.

@245 Mark2

My name is from my grandmother. Where her name is from, I honestly don't know:)

Posted by: SharonM | Mar 26 2020 0:22 utc | 250

@Peter AU1 #355
The problem is we won't know annualized delta until it is too late.
Ultimately, the issue is really very simple: is the economic disruption worse than doing nothing?
To me, it seems pretty clear: while nCOV isn't the zombie apocalypse, it definitely will kill a lot more people than the regular flu if allowed to run rampant. Italy has already equaled its annual flu death rate in March - and only 69K people have tested positive for nCOV. Spain is getting really close.
The death rate vs flu has been much lower in South Korea and China - but extreme measures were taken in China and extreme tracking in South Korea.
And while the majority of deaths are really old people - it doesn't take a lot of working age deaths to cause an enormous economic impact. Think lifetime earnings x 0.1% mortality in 20-59. Even at a 10% infection rate, that's a big number.
The US has about 70-100 million people in that age range. Let's say $50K/year for working years up to 60, a population of 80M and a completely even distribution across the range. Even at a rate of 0.1% mortality, the lifetime earnings loss is $100B in today's dollars.
I do think the South Korea model seems better, but they have a completely different health care system as well as government model: South Korea has socialized medicine and doesn't have state vs. federal governments.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 26 2020 0:24 utc | 251

@257 Bevin

"Meanwhile at OffGuardian, screed after screed is issued denying that there is a crisis. Or, if there is one, that there ought to be. Or that the pandemic is a hoax choreographed by the villains behind 9/11, the Kennedy assassinations and the car crash in which Princess Diane was killed."

lol I believe OffGuardian is reporting that the numbers don't add up to something far more dangerous than the seasonal flu. If you would like to cite the article or articles which support your above quote, I would be extremely interested in reading it or them. Thanks;D

Posted by: SharonM | Mar 26 2020 0:33 utc | 252

In the SF Bay Area San Francisco recorded its first Covid 19 death today. One grocery store was shut down for cleaning after one employee contracted Covid 19. Another grocery store closed then reopened due to a false alarm. 37 of the California victims are under 17.

Totals are:
Alameda County: 135 cases, 2 deaths
Contra Costa County: 108 cases, 1 death
Marin County: 53 cases
Napa County: 3 reported cases
San Francisco County: 178 cases, 1 death
San Mateo County: 165 cases, 5 deaths
Santa Clara County: 459 cases, 17 deaths
Santa Cruz County: 25 cases
Solano County: 24 cases
Sonoma County: 34 cases, 1 death

As you can see the numbers are quite low.

The governor has secured 100 million more masks. He has agreements from banks in the state to suspend mortgage payments and foreclosures. All testing will come online in the next few days to give numbers of total tests given. A few more testing centers opened directed at hospital employees and first responders. 1 million have filed for unemployment since 13 March. Border controls continue to tighten at airports. Hotels are empty.


Posted by: dltravers | Mar 26 2020 0:38 utc | 253

c1ue
As to the best way to tackle it... China, South Korea and perhaps Russia approach looks to be aimed at solidly blocking spread and keep economic activity moving although at a slightly reduced level until vaccine comes online.
Western approach to more or lesser extent depending on country seems to be aimed at allowing the virus to move at a slow pace through the country - flattening the curve somewhat - and stopping uncontrolled out breaks. This method looks like it will do more damage to economic for the duration.
To keep death rates very low by the slow spread method, the duration may be several years. Depends how many of the at risk group a country is willing to sacrifice.
China's method I tend to think is the best but may not be possible in the west due to culture and trust in government differences.

In saying that, here in Australia as a island, with testing at airports, tracking of possible cases and so forth, we should have been able to keep the virus out, with little or no slowdown of domestic activity. Australia invested a lot in tracking and testing, but this was combined with the idiocy of not testing and quarantining people coming in from overseas.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 26 2020 0:47 utc | 254

Posted by: dltravers | Mar 26 2020 0:38 utc | 263

My County (Northern Ca. NOT SFO) with more than two cases Covid-19 and one under observation. I live alone and extremely vulnerable. SHIT!

Posted by: JC | Mar 26 2020 0:52 utc | 255

SharonM

"Total deaths in Italy can be judged by the crematorium work load. There it becomes plain there is a massive increase in total death rates as the epidemic takes hold."

Destroying the evidence--the alleged victims of this flu--should be taken as evidence? That makes no sense to me. We won't know what they are dying from if they're cremated.

You should take up counting UFO's and documenting extra terrestrials.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 26 2020 1:16 utc | 256

Link to the world meters coronavirus page.
I hadn't seen this one before but was posted to the Netanyahu thread.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Death rate as percentage of confirmed cases strongly links with confirmed cases per million. The higher the confirmed per million, the higher the percentage of deaths in confirmed cases. This I think is due to hospital work load. Higher the work load, the higher the percentage of deaths.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 26 2020 1:45 utc | 257

Pete AU1

Hilarious, you should be really ashamed of what you wrote. In fact, you should just go to any corporate media site and start collecting your upvotes. They love evidence-free statements. In fact, they really love when people not only believe everything they say, but that they also want any evidence countering what they say to be destroyed. Heck, I just had some guy write a comment to me at another site, where he called me a narcissist for wanting evidence:D Really. You would like this guy;)

Posted by: SharonM | Mar 26 2020 1:50 utc | 258

CHN names US Army Participant of Intl Military 'Lympics in Wuhan Last Fall as Patient Zero:

https://www.veteranstoday.com/2020/03/25/us-athlete-intelligence-officer-in-china-games-named-as-patient-zero-for-covid-debunking-trump-rhetoric-updating/

Related VT+NEO Article. Author claims RUS CoV_TaskTeam to ITA diverted 2500+Miles(other sources stated 1000+) due to POL denying passage

https://journal-neo.org/2020/03/25/the-nasty-truth-about-covid-19/

VT: Docs Implicating USA Culpability on CoV.

https://www.veteranstoday.com/2020/03/25/pravda-us-army-created-covid-19-in-2015-research-proofs-or-debunking-you-pick/

Hello

Posted by: IronForge | Mar 26 2020 1:54 utc | 259

By the looks of this, Russia is making a major move into Italy to help them fight the epidemic, similar to the way it moved into Syria to fight the terrorists.
https://sputniknews.com/europe/202003251078710986-russian-specialists-arrive-in-bergamo-where-coronavirus-response-centre-will-be-deployed/

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 26 2020 1:54 utc | 260

SharonM @262:

lol I believe OffGuardian is reporting that the numbers don't add up to something far more dangerous than the seasonal flu.

But we know that Covid-19 is more dangerous than the seasonal flu.

Oh, it may have strong effects on only a small number of people, but it spreads so quickly that health systems can be overwhelmed. That's the danger. Once that happens, people start to die in large numbers.

IMO the talk about Covid-19 being no worse than ordinary flu is just CYA for Western government officials that failed to address the problem appropriately and business interests that want the lock-downs to end asap.

At the same time, Pompeo and others are falsely blaming China for not having provided flu information on a timely basis.

IMO USA and other governments had the info they needed to prepare for a pandemic and deliberately failed to act SO THEY COULD BLAME CHINA and also to cause a crisis that they could use for their own purposes: to provide a 'soft landing' for the Wall Street bubble and bailout favored corporations like Boeing.

The rich get richer ... and China is blamed for the whole mess.

<> <> <> <> <>

Note: I also disagree with bevin's belief that Covid-19 will bring about the end of neoliberalism. The gaming of this Trumped-up Covid CRISIS! is exactly what you'd expect from a neoliberal system that works for it's own interests at the expense of the people.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 26 2020 2:01 utc | 261

I posted a comment that has not appeared perhaps due to a link.
The world meters corona virus site lists more factors per country.

Deaths as a percentage of confirmed cases is strongly connected to confirmed cases per million. The higher the confirmed cases per million, the higher is the percentage of deaths amongst confirmed cases. This ties mortality rate strongly to hospital workload.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 26 2020 2:01 utc | 262

@Jackrabbit

"But we know that Covid-19 is more dangerous than the seasonal flu."

No, we don't:D OffGuardian has published article after article showing that this flu is not more dangerous than the seasonal flu. A media-induced panic can cause health systems to overload. The seasonal flu can cause health systems to overload. There is nothing exceptional about this flu accept for how it is being reported and sensationalized.

Posted by: SharonM | Mar 26 2020 2:11 utc | 263

Estimating unknown cases. Looking at the stats of testing per million compared confirmed cases per million by country, I doubt there is a large percentage of undocumented cases. Testing those suspected of having Coronavirus because they show symptoms or have been in contact with a confirmed case I think will be picking up 90% of the cases. To get that last 10% may require 10 fold or more testing. China I think will be very close to having found all cases.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 26 2020 2:16 utc | 264

SharonM @272:

OffGuardian has published article after article showing that this flu is not more dangerous

Covid-19 has an R0 that is estimated to be at least twice that of ordinary flu.

R0 is the rate of infection - a measure of many others are infected from someone that has the disease.

I haven't read the Off-Guardian articles. But no country wants to curtail their economy via lock-downs if they don't have to. So Off-Guardian's standpoint doesn't add up. Health and political officials in many disparate countries have come to the same conclusion: they need to fight Covid-19 with draconian measures up to and including enforced lock-downs.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 26 2020 2:24 utc | 265

sharon.. i guess you figure the hospitals being overwhelmed and the increased shortage of respirators is because this flu season is just the same as the last one and all the other ones?? you have me curious.. how do you explain this, other then to say everyone is panicking needlessly and the shortage of respirators, or the fact russia and china have sent help to italy is all because of a particularly bad flu season?? i am genuinely curious how you are rationalizing this.. thanks..

Posted by: james | Mar 26 2020 2:36 utc | 266

SharonM

AFAICT Off-Guardian is mostly complaining of the hype around the virus. The West went from saying it's a nothing-burger ("just a mild illness") to lock-downs.

But the nothing-burger to lock-down phenomena is not because the threat isn't real but because the threat has been gamed for fun and profit. The fun part is smearing China, the profit part is funneling bailout money to favored constituents.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 26 2020 2:57 utc | 267

Between Trumps daily gaffs at press confress and Pompeo humiliation at G7 and really anywhere that he speaks I have come to conclusion that our entire governments is colluding with Putin to dismantle western hegemony.
Trump is master of disaster and Pompeo the perfect fool.
I dont know if we could survive another four years of Trump but the world does indeed owe him a debt of gratitude. God bless President Trump, Stable Genious.

Posted by: jared | Mar 26 2020 2:59 utc | 268

"Prof. Wolff on Loud & Clear: Bailout, Coronavirus, the Economy, Jobs and Trump"

https://www.rdwolff.com/loud_clear_bailout_coronavirus_the_economy_jobs_and_trump

Posted by: ben | Mar 26 2020 3:13 utc | 269

@Jackrabbit

It's probably best to just read an article from there so you see what's being reported. Here's tuesday's article. It's a quick read:

"12 Experts Questioning the Coronavirus Panic"
https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/24/12-experts-questioning-the-coronavirus-panic/

@James:
Normally when someone gets the flu, they deal with it at home. Maybe they have to call off work for a couple of days. When the media is saying that this flu is different and very dangerous, then people don't deal with it at home, they go to the hospital. So the hospitals get overwhelmed. It's how the flu is being sensationalized in the media that's causing this. Shortages ensue.

Posted by: SharonM | Mar 26 2020 3:16 utc | 270

SharonM

I have a great deal of respect for your opinions and am saddened that experienced posters here at MOA should ridicule your assertions.

For my own part I have great difficulty in getting my head around a so-called discerning virus i.e. one who primarily only takes the old and frail as currently witnessed for the greater part.

In my experience ALL viral outbreaks across time take both the old and frail (check) but also the youngest in society i.e. those with less sell developed immune systems - the under 5's. Why am I not hearing any discussion on this known fact throughout this discussion?

Posted by: m | Mar 26 2020 3:19 utc | 271

Any farmers here? how about rural people? old hippies/back to the landers?
I live on a small farm I inherited/bought from my folks but i don't make my living farming. I'm a retired teacher, we grow mushrooms and run a small sawmill. our area,central Illinois, has been nervous for years about the local economy, almost all farmers are hooked into gmo crops and are not doing real well. More petty thefts this past winter. pretty quiet now. I'm guessing this year's crop will not be profitable without bailouts but haven't talked with local farmers and haven't read what's going on with farm policy in Washington D.C.

What's going on in your area?

Posted by: migueljose | Mar 26 2020 3:30 utc | 272

m @279:

In my experience ALL viral outbreaks across time take both the old and frail ... but also the youngest ...

The simple reason for this is that this virus doesn't kill you like other viruses. In susceptible individuals, Covid-19 progresses to a point that allows bacteria to attack your lungs. Smokers and people subject to air pollution for long periods are among those susceptible to an advanced stage of the disease.

<> <> <> <> <>

saddened that experienced posters here at MOA should ridicule

This is a forum for discussion and that means reactions will vary. A gentle ribbing keeps the conversation 'lively' but can sometimes go too far.

I don't think anyone means any disrespect toward Sharon.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 26 2020 3:37 utc | 273

Bernie slams GOP Senators wanting to reduce unemployment insurance in Coronavirus bill.

https://youtu.be/Yt5II7UIYCM

And right there is the reason he should be President.

Posted by: Circe | Mar 26 2020 4:48 utc | 274

Peter AU1 #255

Corona virus has become very political and the deaths are a political item. Perhaps the best place to look is total deaths historically vs total deaths during corona virus.


Thanks and I am inclined that way too. If medical decisions under extreme pressure and scarce resources err towards saving the young and assisted exit for the aged and infirm then total deaths 'during the CV-19' epidemic may be a 'reasonable' comparison.

One could weight that number with a factor derived from {Normal circumstance hospital deaths} factored by normal circumstance intensive care population: CV-19 Circumstance intensive care population /~/ {CV-19 epidemic deaths}. Indicative rather than accurate but would render a rule of thumb for estimation purposes.

On topic of Middle East shenanigans: Things are getting pressurised in the pot right now as the Western backed jihadis are being less than caring for the bridges on the M4 highway. Expect the Syrian Arab Army to sweep the rats away anytime soon.

YNMS reports entire French occupation forces in Iraq have exited stage right. Similar reports for US occupation forces along the Syrian border. I guess the oil price has neutered the reason to stay and pump. Not sure how accurate YNMS but he will do for me in terms of immediate news.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 26 2020 4:49 utc | 275

@ m... i hope your ability to discern is better then what is on display in the above post @ 279... my own view is much the same as jrs.. no one here is being disrespectful towards sharon and i think we are all happy to listen to what anyone has to say on this including you! there are some young people who have died from this, but the majority (as jr notes) are those with pre existing health issues... what are your thoughts on what i asked sharon? you're welcome to comment as well.. wanting to stigmatize the conversation by passing a subjective viewpoint not based in fact as you did is really not all that thoughtful..

Posted by: james | Mar 26 2020 4:51 utc | 276

India is in lockdown for 21 days. Does anyone know if those riots about Modi's immigration changes are continuing?

Posted by: Ian2 | Mar 26 2020 4:59 utc | 277

SharonM #267

Heck, I just had some guy write a comment to me at another site, where he called me a narcissist for wanting evidence:D Really.

Thanks Sharon, that is sad but typical. I am undecided as to severity and rapidity of transfer but regardless I don't want the standard flu of last year and I certainly don't want this years flu so I take precautions. NOT the flu jab.

I do not believe the panic drivers for one second. Common sense and tangible data melded with a solid appreciation of the propagandists bankrobbery currently underway are my framework for sifting data.

Your contributions here are valued by myself and many I am sure. Perhaps time will prove some of us wrong and to have been sucked in by self serving data choices but that is where we are.

I trust we are all resilient enough to accept that we may have followed the wrong road. I did and I still owe Jackrabbit and all the Bernie knockers a mighty big shout at the bar.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 26 2020 5:06 utc | 278

The simple reason for this is that this virus doesn't kill you like other viruses. In susceptible individuals, Covid-19 progresses to a point that allows bacteria to attack your lungs. Smokers and people subject to air pollution for long periods are among those susceptible to an advanced stage of the disease.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 26 2020 3:37 utc | 281

I may be dense, but to me all respiratory viruses are like that. The question is: who is susceptible. Another question is if pneumonia has some special characteristics, apparently you do not need secondary bacterial infection for Covid-19 to severely impair the lungs. Ordinary people with conventional bacterial pneumonia get better with antibiotics without respirators.

----

On the subject of reliability of statistics, I do not know who first said "Lies, damns lies and statistics", but there are many ways statistics are incomparable. If you check totals of cases and fatalities for N1C1 (?? Wikipedia has it), you can see countries with 20%+ cases and hardly any fatalities -- Iceland, and outliers in every possible direction. Then epidemiologists may try to get background stats like total number of pneumonia cases with age distribution before and during the epidemic etc. But this is not easy. For example, some bugs were very contagious in populations like hospices and hospital wards, but not particularly contagious outside, the disease noticed in late Fall in Italy could have that profile.

------

The news about hantavirus case in China (a bug spread by some critters and endemic in various places, including some localities in USA) spread virally, unlike hantavirus itself that remains, as before, endemic.


Posted by: Piotr Berman | Mar 26 2020 5:07 utc | 279

Some interesting points of view.

Posted by: junior | Mar 26 2020 5:13 utc | 280

Thanks SharonM - you have done well.
I hope you are not discouraged from voicing your opinion.

The problem with these types of forum is that points of disagreement are more likely to be aired than the common ground. Speaking as someone who has 'clashed' (to put it mildly) with a number of regulars here, I can say for the most part I agree with 90% of what they say - but I am not going to endlessly re-affirm my agreement. For me that is not necessary. It's the disagreements that are somewhat problematic (for context I am laughing at myself here).

Moving on...
From Gov.UK website - "As of 19 March 2020, COVID-19 is no longer considered to be a high consequence infectious diseases (HCID) in the UK."

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/high-consequence-infectious-diseases-hcid#status-of-covid-19

I have no idea what this actually means, if anything.

Going back to the OffGuardian article -
https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/24/12-experts-questioning-the-coronavirus-panic/

Twelve experts, all with expertise related to the coronavirus outbreak, voice an opinion contrary to the prevailing narrative. They are not minimizing or trivializing the severity of the outbreak, only the way it has been handled.
Surely their opinion is equally valid as to that of the experts put forward by various governments around the world.

It's all in the data.
And how you interpret it.

Posted by: ted01 | Mar 26 2020 5:14 utc | 281

jared #277

I dont know if we could survive another four years of Trump but the world does indeed owe him a debt of gratitude. God bless President Trump, Stable Genious.

jared, you pushed my button. I will be pleased to deliver my 'debt of gratitude' payment to Donald Trump. It will comprise the following collection of global booty from his imperial estate:

The entire volume of rotting corpses, children, adolescents and adults from Yemen.
The entire volume of rotting copses from the ISIS and jihadi butchers that the USA has supported for years. That will include those rotting corpses from Obama's years as the Presidency is a continuum in legal sense.
The entire volume of the rotting corpses from the sanctions in place by the united states of mendacity in Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, and every other nation unfortunate enough to have anything to do with the USA dollar.
The entire volume of rotting lives in USA citizens that have been and continue to be plagued by lead and C8 in the drinking water of the USA that Donald Trump has done nothing about.

Stable genius? Nah stable in the sense that the mendacity and carelessness for others continues as before.

The current President of the USA and his successor owe the people of this world reparations for vulgar self serving disregard they they have abused us all with.

To HELL with your Donald Trump.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 26 2020 5:23 utc | 282

Sharon, Jack Rabbit,
This a useful article by OffGardian
12 Experts Questioning the Corona Virus Panic

I like this:But remember the joke about tigers. “Why do you blow the horn?” “To keep the tigers away.” “But there are no tigers here.” “There you see!”

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Mar 26 2020 5:28 utc | 283

M @ 279:

The majority of the old and frail who died from or with COVID-19 had pre-existing conditions like diabetes, hypertension or cardiovascular conditions. It is likely that in these people, these conditions are linked and moreover are linked to lowered immunity. Long-time exposure to toxic chemicals or particles due to smoking or breathing in polluted air, or having a poor diet with toxic chemicals, which might create the internal environment that leads to poor health, might underlie all these conditions.

Children under the age of 5 years have not had the long-term exposure to pollution or ingestion of toxic chemicals through food, water, skin exposure, whatever, so their internal body environment can resist infection with COVID-19. If they already have a debilitating condition like leukaemia or some other form of childhood cancer, or a genetic condition like cystic fibrosis, then their carers will need to be extra-vigilant.

Posted by: Jen | Mar 26 2020 5:38 utc | 284

uncle tungsten
The news on Syria I have read elsewhere and looks to be what is happening. French pulling out because the economy will be going to shit, but perhaps the attitude US is showing during this pandemic, the added sanctions on Iran Venezuela ect play a part.
Us had started pulling back to its larger bases in Syria before the pandemic got going in the world. I think that was more to do with repercussions of the Soleimani killing and the strikes on the Iraqi units.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 26 2020 5:39 utc | 285

Perhaps worth remembering when looking at if governments are going overboard with lockdowns ect is what the death rate and demographic in which this would occur if there was no medical care.
Good medical care is saving all but the weakest.
There will be plenty of bureaucratic and political bungling, but on the other hand if governments do nothing, many will die because hospitals cannot keep up.
Rather than just being the very old, the age demographic may move lower to the mis or late forties,
co morbidities moving to include very minor illnesses and conditions, or as we have seen in China amongst medical personal, simple fatigue even in younger people will weaken a person enough that they cannot withstand the virus.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 26 2020 5:56 utc | 286

Bevin @ 257, SharonM @ 262:

As far as I can see, the actual ATL Off-Guardian.org articles on Italy's COVID-19 disease crisis are (a) a list of 12 medical experts across Europe, the US and Israel (and one of these experts is the leader of a team) whose opinions have been linked to by the Off-Guardian article so readers can read these for themselves; and (b) an article based on a report by the Italian Institute of Health which was translated by the Swiss Propaganda Research Group.

I do not see that Off-Guardian is denying that there is a crisis. All that Off-Guardian is doing is questioning whether part of the crisis has been deliberately played up as a form of what Naomi Klein famously calls "shock treatment" in her book of the same name, in the way the statistics on the deaths of people have been compiled and on what basis. We need to know how Italian doctors know or do not know if a person has died because of COVID-19 infection or from a pre-existing condition and just happened to have the virus or another coronavirus at the time of death.

I think SharonM is right to query crematorium statistics as a source of information about the true numbers of deaths from COVID-19 in Italy. Even if those crematoria are only burning human dead, and not animal dead, we cannot assume that from December 2019 or January 2020 onwards, all those being cremated are COVID-19 victims. Equally we cannot assume those being cremated are all Italian; they could have been sent to Italy from other countries for some other use like research before cremation.

Posted by: Jen | Mar 26 2020 6:04 utc | 287

re Peter AU1 | Mar 25 2020 8:32 utc | 325 (links to another thread) where you state:


"My definition of socialism may be different to most. To me it is a government that controls natural monopolies or those industries where cartels can form. The government ensures full educational an investment in the country, health plus all the standard duties governments perform."

To me that is the absolute antithesis of socialism as it hands control of a nation's resources, if not all certainly many of its wealthiest & powerful, over to the hands of a few select politicians, who even if they are initially honest will inevitably be replaced by corrupt power hungry types who will use their control of those positions of power to cement their positions in perpetuity.
I know this because I lived in Aotearoa through the 50's, 60's, & 70's when an agrarian socialist economy fell into the hands of a gang of corrupt tories who very nearly destroyed Aotearoa's viability.
Worse was to come, during the 80's an allegedly lefty party won power and they decided the best way to prevent the tories gaining a stranglehold on power was to toss the baby out with the bathwater.
The socialist state disappeared to be replaced by one of the first neoliberal governments.
I don't have time at present to debate the flaws in your view of socialism, but I am interested to know if there is an ideological foundation for that view, can you tell us what socialist philosophers have led you to conclude that your model (which I consider to be state capitalism) is a contemporary socialist theory?

Posted by: A User | Mar 26 2020 6:09 utc | 288

Piotr Berman @287

How Does the Flu Actually Kill People?

Based on autopsy studies, Kathleen Sullivan, chief of the Division of Allergy and Immunology at The Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, estimates about one third of people who die from flu-related causes expire because the virus overwhelms the immune system; another third die from the immune response to secondary bacterial infections, usually in the lungs; and the remaining third perish due to the failure of one or more other organs.

But Covid-19 is different. It kills by bacteria damaging lung tissue at a deep level (deeper, I think, than normal flu). You get fibrosis of the lung. Something that is apparently rare for normal flu given that there is such a low incidence of PF in the general population.

If the virus is defeated before it gets deep into the lung, then you recover and it may seem like a mild illness. But if the virus progresses beyond a certain point then you get lung scarring and possibly death.

PS I'm not a doctor.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 26 2020 6:24 utc | 289

@294 Correct link: You get fibrosis of the lung.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 26 2020 6:28 utc | 290

AUser,
Nothing really wrong with Peter AUs view of socialims. It is more mixed economy type, where the people thought their government control monopolies and cartel type industries, often not for profit or even at a loss when a key industry. It would also "control" key societal sectors like public utilities, education and health by making them available to all as a benefit to society. This was the tendency in many Western countries prior to the neoliberal coup in the 80s.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Mar 26 2020 6:38 utc | 291

296
that should be "through" not "thought"

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Mar 26 2020 6:42 utc | 292

Jackrabbit | Mar 26 2020 6:24 utc

I think that while you are correct that the deeper virus reaches in the lungs the worse the prognosis, but antibiotics are not reported to be used, so this is exactly the lung damage caused by the virus and the immune reactions to viruses (and infected cells?), with no secondary infection. Every infection of the lungs is more dangerous when it reaches the parts where the oxygen is absorbed.

PS. I am a phony doctor.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Mar 26 2020 6:56 utc | 293

"I know this because I lived in through the 50's, 60's, & 70's when an agrarian socialist economy fell into the hands of a gang of corrupt tories who very nearly destroyed Aotearoa's viability"

"Aotearoa"

No such place

Might as well say you lived in fairyland

Posted by: Realist | Mar 26 2020 7:38 utc | 294

"I don't have time at present to debate the flaws in your view of socialism, but I am interested to know if there is an ideological foundation for that view, can you tell us what socialist philosophers have led you to conclude that your model (which I consider to be state capitalism) is a contemporary socialist theory?
Posted by: A User | Mar 26 2020 6:09 utc | 293"

In PeterAU's defence his definition IS the definition of socialism as defined and espoused by Aotearoa's main leftwing opposition party the Aotearoan Revolutionary Socialist Workers Party (ARSWP)

Posted by: Realist | Mar 26 2020 7:45 utc | 295

Realist

Considering there is such a place, it seems that it is you living in fairyland.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 26 2020 7:46 utc | 296

Peter AU1 #292

Good medical care is saving all but the weakest.
There will be plenty of bureaucratic and political bungling, but on the other hand if governments do nothing, many will die because hospitals cannot keep up.

Rather than just being the very old, the age demographic may move lower to the mis or late forties,
co morbidities moving to include very minor illnesses and conditions, or as we have seen in China amongst medical personal, simple fatigue even in younger people will weaken a person enough that they cannot withstand the virus.

One of my points elsewhere is that when the intensive care system is in overload the life managers need to make decisions on who should have priority access to respirator or drugs that may be in limited supply. It is a dreadful position to be in. Do you opt to move the respirator to those with many years ahead and dependent families or do you exclude their chance and save the oldies who find themselves in their twilight years? The choice impacts the death certificates and the data thereon.

Nations that have hoarded medical supplies or maintain sanctions against others are criminals, they are the trash of humanity and we all will learn much from their behaviour.

Posted by:

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 26 2020 7:48 utc | 297

@201

I don't have time at present to debate the flaws in your view of Fairyland, but I am interested to know if there is an legal foundation for that view, can you tell us what philosophers of Sovereign Jurisprudence have led you to conclude that your model of Fairyland is a contemporary actual and Jurisprudeninal fact

Posted by: Realist | Mar 26 2020 7:58 utc | 298

This so in your face that it hurts.

Status of COVID-19

As of 19 March 2020, COVID-19 is no longer considered to be a high consequence infectious diseases (HCID) in the UK.

The 4 nations public health HCID group made an interim recommendation in January 2020 to classify COVID-19 as an HCID. This was based on consideration of the UK HCID criteria about the virus and the disease with information available during the early stages of the outbreak. Now that more is known about COVID-19, the public health bodies in the UK have reviewed the most up to date information about COVID-19 against the UK HCID criteria. They have determined that several features have now changed; in particular, more information is available about mortality rates (low overall), and there is now greater clinical awareness and a specific and sensitive laboratory test, the availability of which continues to increase.

The Advisory Committee on Dangerous Pathogens (ACDP) is also of the opinion that COVID-19 should no longer be classified as an HCID.

The need to have a national, coordinated response remains, but this is being met by the government’s COVID-19 response.


link

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 26 2020 8:00 utc | 299

A User "but I am interested to know if there is an ideological foundation for that view, can you tell us what socialist philosophers have led you to conclude that your model (which I consider to be state capitalism) is a contemporary socialist theory?"

As I said, my definition of socialism is different to most. after reading your comments for some time, I feel that you have a one size fits all idea of governance or organising a community and a nation. A one size fits all is an Ideology that can get forced onto communities that it does not suit. the yanks equate socialism with communism, but I equate communism with enforced collectivisation and everything governed centrally.
Your views I think would suit a small community where every body knows everybody else, but does not work so well in a larger nation.
I look at the communism or socialism in various countries and they are all different each finding something that suites their culture. Soviet Union was hemmed in by artificial ideology and without being able to change collapsed. China is communist in government structure but socialist in everything else. Cuba, I haven't looked into a lot, but obviously a small tight knit country that has been able to ward off the US. Venezuela, Syria whatever Its a matter of finding a model that fits the people and their culture.
There is no one size fits all.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 26 2020 8:01 utc | 300

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