Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 13, 2020

News-Nugget About The Coronavirus Pandemic

Excerpts from three current pieces about the novel coronavirus pandemic.

NPR: White House Knew Coronavirus Would Be A 'Major Threat' — But Response Fell Short

In the case of Alex Azar, [the head of Health and Human Services], he did go to the president in January. He did push past resistance from the president's political aides to warn the president the new coronavirus could be a major problem. There were aides around Trump - Kellyanne Conway had some skepticism at times that this was something that needed to be a presidential priority.

But at the same time, Secretary Azar has not always given the president the worst-case scenario of what could happen. My understanding is he did not push to do aggressive additional testing in recent weeks, and that's partly because more testing might have led to more cases being discovered of coronavirus outbreak, and the president had made clear - the lower the numbers on coronavirus, the better for the president, the better for his potential reelection this fall.

So how did that worst-case scenario look?

NYT: The Worst-Case Estimate for U.S. Coronavirus Deaths

Officials at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and epidemic experts from universities around the world conferred last month about what might happen if the new coronavirus gained a foothold in the United States. How many people might die? How many would be infected and need hospitalization?

One of the agency’s top disease modelers, Matthew Biggerstaff, presented the group on the phone call with four possible scenarios — A, B, C and D — based on characteristics of the virus, including estimates of how transmissible it is and the severity of the illness it can cause. The assumptions, reviewed by The New York Times, were shared with about 50 expert teams to model how the virus could tear through the population — and what might stop it.
...
Between 160 million and 214 million people in the U.S. could be infected over the course of the epidemic, according to one projection. That could last months or even over a year, with infections concentrated in shorter periods, staggered across time in different communities, experts said. As many as 200,000 to 1.7 million people could die.

And, the calculations based on the C.D.C.’s scenarios suggested, 2.4 million to 21 million people in the U.S. could require hospitalization, potentially crushing the nation’s medical system, which has only about 925,000 staffed hospital beds. Fewer than a tenth of those are for people who are critically ill.

That is why we argued that only an early and lasting lockdown can prevent that the health care system goes into overload and that many people who would ordinarily survive would otherwise unnecessarily die.

A U.S. op-ed writer, who was in China during the lockdown, repeats our criticism of the racism that led to the still sluggish response in 'western' countries.

NYT: China Bought the West Time. The West Squandered It.

[F]or weeks now, the attitude toward the coronavirus outbreak in the United States and much of Europe has been bizarrely reactive, if not outright passive — or that the governments in those regions have let pass their best chance to contain the virus’s spread. Having seen a kind of initial denial play out already in China, I feel a sense of déjà vu. But while China had to contend with a nasty, sudden surprise, governments in the West have been on notice for weeks.

It’s as if China’s experience hadn’t given Western countries a warning of the perils of inaction. Instead, many governments seem to have imitated some of the worst measures China put in place, while often turning a blind eye to the best of them, or its successes.
...
In my experience living in China for weeks during the peak period of the lockdown and talking to various groups beyond the disgruntled elites, people were frustrated, even exasperated, by the containment measures — but they largely supported them, too.

And while some in the West fixated on how China’s system failed to stem the outbreak at first, they were ignoring the aspects of it that worked. There’s nothing authoritarian about checking temperatures at airports, enforcing social distancing or offering free medical care to anyone with Covid-19.

Your host is currently working on a piece about the social, political and geopolitical consequences the pandemic is likely to have. My first outline says that these will be huge and will reverb over several decades. I will have to tone that down.

---
Previous Moon of Alabama posts on the issue:

Posted by b on March 13, 2020 at 14:00 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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@imo | Mar 14 2020 12:54 utc | 260
…some more:
If Your "New Year 2019" means January 2019 - and not January 2020 - Your and your family's (sad) experience would be very interesting! That would mean a Covid-19 case nearly a full year before this pandemic was known in public.

Posted by: Joerg | Mar 14 2020 18:32 utc | 301

PavewayIV | Mar 14 2020 18:26 utc | 300 Yes, here at Anoxia a similar experience today, Saturday...and observed < $3 gas (a new development), and remarkably light traffic. Wally made a sally for the XYL. Bespoke an assist mgr at bboxstore..."crazy", she said about the sitrep inside the store.

Wally is inclined to suspect a curated public in a curated panic...where is Goebbels when ya need 'im?

global research "The Long-suppressed Korean War Report on U.S. Use of Biological Weapons Released At Last" has a link to said report - which describes the 1952 effort - which effort (also against China) which effort ended...ah, when Did it end?

Posted by: Walter | Mar 14 2020 18:44 utc | 302

@Norwegian #211
And what does the US' economic policies have to do with coronavirus?
Are you a believer in the bioweapon business?

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 14 2020 19:45 utc | 303

Add the British to the Japanese for the complete list of countries who are responding rationally to the coronavirus.

"We think this virus is likely to be one that comes back year on year and becomes like a seasonal virus and communities will become immune to it and that's going to be an important part of controlling this in the longer term," said the government's chief scientific adviser, Patrick Vallance, who added "60% is the sort of figure you need to get herd immunity. If you completely locked down absolutely everything probably for a period of four months or more then you would suppress this virus," he said, adding "All of the evidence from previous epidemics suggests that when you do that and then you release it, it all comes back again."

British P.M. Boris Johnson seriously suggests on TV to let #coronavirus run unhampered thru UK population.
Johnson proposes to let us "take it on the chin" & "allow the disease to move through the population".


For my part I have been talking to people that I meet and today a woman in her thirties put it best. I asked her what she thought about the whole coronavirus thing and she said, "The elderly are canceling our lives because they are afraid." I said kind of selfish. She said absolutely. Anyway gives me a little hope. At least there are some people in my community who aren't scared of their shadows.

Posted by: Paul Bogdanich | Mar 14 2020 19:51 utc | 304

@Peter AU1 #280
It is not very clear the differentiation (or overlap) between pneumonia and a "cytokine storm", however, cytokine storms are supposedly over-reaction by the body's immune system whereas pneumonia is a loss of lung function - generally due to infection but can also be caused by breathing say, acid (or mustard gas in WW1).
If nCOV induced pneumonia is different than cytokine storms - which is likely because the pneumonia is a general bucket including multiple causes, then the hydroxychoroquinine would only be helpful in a subset of cases.
Hence my curiosity.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 14 2020 19:52 utc | 305

Thinking of UK PM Johnson unconcerned stance towards Coronavirus, I am thinking that it could as well be originated in the UK... Recalling Julia and Sergei Skripal serious condition after the alleged poisoning with a chemical agent, I remembered that Julia needed a tracheostomy to be practiced.....that means that she was not able to breath by herself, being a young adult...We do not know anything of his father, but were told he was on breathing help by respirator..

Then you have that in most seriously affected patients from Covid-19 a reath function failure takes place, needing them to be kept alive by respirator in an ICU...

I was wondering also why all those men in that video I posted above of Benidorm, enjoying the good weather in the overcrowded terraces of bars and restaurants, were all relatively young men in working age...Is there holiday season in the UK? Why are they in Spain in such ammounts and not working in the UK?

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 14 2020 19:53 utc | 306

@Barovsky #286
The "Orthomolecular.org" link is hosted by Riordan clinic.
Riordan clinic sells:

Overview of Therapies
IV Nutrition
High Dose IV Vitamin C (IVC)
Ultraviolet Blood Irradiation (UBI)
Mistletoe Therapy
Regenerative Injection Therapy
Prolozone Therapy
Nutrient Injections
Bioidentical Hormone Replacement
Chelation Therapy
Infraspinatus Resp. Reflex Injection
Pulsed Electro-Magnetic Therapy

as well as

Overview of Services
Vitamins and Supplements
Naturopathic Medicine
Integrative Medicine
Functional/Environmental Medicine
Nutrient Testing
Infrared Breast Thermography


Or in other words, this "medical" establishment is talking its own book.
Not at all clear any of this "data" is real.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 14 2020 19:57 utc | 307

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 14 2020 16:04 utc | 283

I would "Dunkirk" all those fat, drunken, cubbish britons from Benidorm or Malaga and send back to Her Majesty island, all Spain is now closed but the english owners of the bars and discos refuse to close them.
I would do the same with the old people are coming here all the year in droves because the poor health care system in UK

Our PM (Sanchez) is too late to take hard measures in those places, I would send the army

Posted by: DFC | Mar 14 2020 20:05 utc | 308

c1ue

My from my read up on pneumonia it is inflammation of the lungs. Inflammation is an immune response to whatever. Which is why pneumonia can be triggered by different pathogens.
Swelling is due to inflammation can generally be reduced by anti inflammatories. Lesions in the lungs can be caused purely by the immune response rather than the pathogen, similar to the Crohn's disease affects the intestine. With these coronavirus diseases it appears it is the immune response itself that does the majority of the damage. Discharges ect due to the virus are the lesser problem.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 14 2020 20:07 utc | 309

Brother Skripal must know what must not be said...and so does his daughter... It may well be the Big Plan and yes, be tired to PD labs...Helmer put up stuff on this, very deep rabbit warren.

.......WSWS reports "Wildcat strikes erupt across Italy to demand idling of plants during coronavirus pandemic " and "Shut down the auto industry to halt the spread of coronavirus! At plants across North America, support for a mass walkout is growing. Workers must act now to save their lives and the lives of their families by forming rank-and-file committees."

Posted by: Walter | Mar 14 2020 20:07 utc | 310

re @pwIV
here (upstate ny college town) : tp tissues and all forms of disinfectants cleaned out everywhere. in the upscale supermarket, canned and cooking oil 80% gone. chunky soups etc 100% gone. pasta sauce 90% gone, except meat and mushroom flavors (go figure). the found out from a supermarket worker at the other supermarket that they are hiding some of these things (like the cheaper store brand tp) when they come in.... Soviet style wtf. but besides tp the working class supermarket was mostly normal. Oh dairy 50% empty at the first one. fresh veggies maybe 30-50% below normal stock too.

family is telling me nyc supermarkets are similar/ worse and quite a scene.

flippin irrational. you're not gonna poop more, folks.

Posted by: ptb | Mar 14 2020 20:09 utc | 311

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that this Coronavirus "plague" is organised to control the outcome of the coming financial crash.

Massive lockdowns, no public meetings, no jobs or possibility of independent projects etc.etc.
In France schools, borders, meetings and restaurants, are all to be stopped on monday. Social contact to be kept to a minimum. Macron is into his best "speech" mode, as he can at last call for an end to public resistance to his policies. (Except the "gilet Jaunes !!!)

Note that at the beginning of the "scare" the different countries seemed to do their best to spread the virus around. ie."Survivors" flown back on planes with ordinary passengers, and then split into groups to infect different areas, Cruise liners. Now we have a "lack" of tests or outright refusal for certain groups. Plus the MSM pressure to OBEY orders from central Government. (to be enforced by soldiers at the borders.)

Basically this presages the installation of a Fascist-state apparatus, including jackbooted, masked soldiers.

I think the plague has been conceived as part of the coming financial crash. The debt load is enormous and there are not enough assets in the world to cover all of them totally. So the "rich" want all of it, and leave nothing for the others. What better way to avoid any popular resistance forming, than a "Pandemic" and strict population controls.

When nobody has jobs or revenue/income, the leeches will come out of hiding to buy everything, (the assets remaining in the ordinary populations hands) at fire-sale prices. Banks and others will get "unlimited money" (trillions in credit lines, even if these are only "bits" in a computer entry) to be able to do what they want. Starvation and fear are the basis of Fascism, while the "chosen" are supposed to become the new untouchables.

----------
Re; that last point; I don't think anyone should underestimate the size of the "Bunkers" and associated infrastucture that have been built by the "untouchables) for this moment.

-----------

One thing that has possibilities (my opinion) is to build up your own immunity first. (White blood cells). There may be several ways to do this.
Vitamin C ; Intraveinous vitamin C is supposed to be more efficient at building up your immunity. ("Ordinary vitamin C is not absorbed in big enough amounts 12-15%) Here in France I think you would need a doctors perscription to get any.

Posted by: Stonebird | Mar 14 2020 20:10 utc | 312

Sorry about the bold type at the end - it was supposed to be a small addition to the rest of the post

Posted by: Stonebird | Mar 14 2020 20:11 utc | 313

Stonebird

Take vitamin C in those quantities and your immune system will be fucked. look up the metabolism cycle of C, copper, zinc ect.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 14 2020 20:14 utc | 314

yesterday I was able to make my way back from Hamburg to Venice. after making my way to Berlin I boarded a special "rescue flight" to Milan Malpensa. there were a total of 18 passengers on the Airbus 320...

anyway Malpensa was eerie, everything closed and darkened with only a few travelers walking about. Just a couple of car rental agencies were open and I was able to get a car for drop off at Venice and it was not terribly expensive (86 euro).

onto the autostrada and 98% or more of the traffic was large trucks and some work vehicles. passenger cars were very few. stopped at rest stop with snackbar for a sandwich and coffee, servers wore masks and a 1 meter rule was in place and respected. Having lived in Italy for quite some time and been on the receiving end of elbows and pushes in line it was amusing to see this almost british attention to queuing.

one must have forms on their person when traveling declaring that they are on the road for work, emergency, or returning home. If you don't have the papers, you get a fine, if you lie about what you are doing you get a larger fine. there are roadblocks.

the border to Slovenia is closed. Truckers are told to detour through Austria.

Posted by: dan of steele | Mar 14 2020 20:26 utc | 315

Barovsky # 270

Thanks a lot for sharing. Let's hope it works out!

And on a side note to A User # 205: Forget the complicated installed version of a bidet for substituting toilet paper, there are various "mobile bidets" on sale at Amazon's, e.g. SUPVOX, Hivexagon, Badimo, Happy Po. At a price range from 10 to 20 Euros.

Posted by: Paleene | Mar 14 2020 20:28 utc | 316

Berlin closing cafes and discotheques NOW instead of Tuesday. Even private parties under 50 persons are banned.
If only the European govs had spent a few cents in actually screening at airports and stations, gently offering some hydro-alcoholic gel, it would not have reached that stage.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 14 2020 20:37 utc | 317

https://euobserver.com/coronavirus/147731
"Von der Leyen warned member states not to unilaterally shut down borders across the EU - on the day that Slovakia, and the Czech Republic both closed their borders to foreigners.

Austria, Slovenia and Hungary have also suspended the rules of the passport-free Schengen zone and reimposed border checks.

"Certain controls may be justified, but general travel bans are not seen as being the most effective by the World Health Organization," von der Leyen said."

insane EU dogmatism

Posted by: Mina | Mar 14 2020 20:39 utc | 318

So far, every piece of legislation written and passed by the Outlaw US Empire's Congress has proven to be an example of Moral Failure, and this new bill's no different:

"In fact, the bill guarantees sick leave only to about 20 percent of workers. Big employers like McDonald’s and Amazon are not required to provide any paid sick leave, while companies with fewer than 50 employees can seek hardship exemptions from the Trump administration.

"'If you are sick, stay home,' Vice President Mike Pence said at a news conference on Saturday afternoon. 'You’re not going to miss a paycheck.'

"But that’s simply not true. Sick workers should stay home, but there is no guarantee in the emergency legislation that most of them will get paid.

"The White House and congressional Republicans, who insisted on the exemptions as the price of bipartisan support for the legislation, bear the primary responsibility for the indefensible decision to prioritize corporate profits in the midst of a public health emergency.

"The House’s failure to require universal paid sick leave is an embarrassment that endangers the health of workers, consumers and the broader American public."

Step-daughter's main boss told her it's illegal--against the health code--for her to wear a protective mask while at work, which is a massive lie, but no different from Trump, Pence, Pelosi, and the rest of the fucking Neoliberals. We composed a very stern letter calling out the preposterous lie for her to take to work today.

As most MoA readers now know, Moral Failure is rife within the Outlaw US Empire. We just need to get the rest of the populous aware of the stupendous challenge they face to change the nation's direction.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 14 2020 20:40 utc | 319

We need a measure of distrust of power centers and I can find that here. It is in the nature of distrust to generate theories that whatever happens is intended and driven by those centers of power. So you have to put a high threshold on these theories before you start taking them seriously. That takes some skill. Usually I'm not very interested in them.

What is easier to judge though, is spotting when people in power take the attitude of "not letting a crisis go to waste". Both those who strictly look upon the situation as an opportunity to make it serve their interest, and others in unrelated sectors who simply were waiting for events which draw attention away so they can quietly take initiatives which would normally cause a lot of protest. Those you just have to spot them to recognize them. But then you have to know where to look and I don't know where to look. But some on here will know.

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Mar 14 2020 20:49 utc | 320

: karlof1 | Mar 14 2020 20:40 utc | 319 Brother it may go all the way until Power is lying in the street. I have real doubts that they'll be able to salvage much...Panarin and Orlov - somewhere in between their forecasts the Collapse may lead us.

If things go badly the grid may go...

Not like they didn't game it last year...Plum Island, remember?

As for Wally, he'll follow Jack Ripper's suggestions about purity bodily fluids and of essence/peace on earth and dose with distilled water and grain alcohol...with lemon.

And expect a hot nuclear war, which might not 'sprize Comrade Texas. They seem to going for broke...

Posted by: Walter | Mar 14 2020 20:53 utc | 321

OT but not so OT. Who said hospitals should be ruled by the invisible hand of the market, as should also pensions, schools, etc.?
https://diem25.org/euroleaks-the-full-2015-eurogroup-recordings-now-public/

Posted by: Mina | Mar 14 2020 20:55 utc | 322

@Peter AU1 #309
A cytokine storm is bad not because there exists inflammation.
Inflammation is a legitimate part of the body's defenses.
A Cytokine storm is where the inflammation is occurring in locations it shouldn't be, and for longer than it should be.
So simply terming "pneumonia" as inflammation is absolutely incorrect, and so is focusing just on inflammation control as a magic bullet.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 14 2020 21:02 utc | 323

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 14 2020 20:14 utc | 314

This one may do regarding Vitamin C issues.

Vitamin C

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 14 2020 21:06 utc | 324

Peter AU1 | Mar 14 2020 20:14 utc | 314

My info about intraveinous Vit C came from one of the links mentioned on the page linked below. ( Which also deals with the same subject)
Vit C taken in an "ordinary" manner in massive quantities will have the effect you say

Posted by: Stonebird | Mar 14 2020 21:23 utc | 325

Well, it all seems a huge overreaction to me. Apart from a short supply of the cheaper ranges of toilet rolls, baked beans etc, there are no signs of panic anywhere I have been today, or anyone wearing a mask. The panic seems to be coming from the media who want people to panic and 'demand' emergency measures from the government (so it looks like it isn't the government that craves them).
I guess the coronavirus scare is a very devious way of coordinating a financial and economic crash that was going to happen for other reasons; finding a scapegoat for past greed and mismanagement; and clamping down on people's freedoms.

Posted by: Thomas | Mar 14 2020 21:23 utc | 326

Look like Spain, Italy, France and Germany are going to suffer hugely for this.

Holy fuck, the number of confirmed cases are insane. The latin "greeting by kissing" and open border countries of the EU, prepare thine anus.

Posted by: Smith | Mar 14 2020 21:40 utc | 328

@c1ue 303

And what does the US' economic policies have to do with coronavirus?
Are you a believer in the bioweapon business?

You asked us to connect the dots, so I did. The US economic 'policies' take the form of trade war against us in Europe. Now some question the current situation which may be interpreted (right or wrong) as a different form of the same war. It is hard to know what is true. We know the US military is involved in shady business.

Are you a believer in coincidences?

Posted by: Norwegian | Mar 14 2020 21:42 utc | 329

Donald Trump must put America under martial law, as there is a national emergency of the highest order!

The very fate of our great democracy and indeed human liberty is at stake!

No, I am not talking about the Coronavirus.

I am talking about the fact that America is (horror) running out of toilet paper!!!!!!

Posted by: ak74 | Mar 14 2020 21:45 utc | 330

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 14 2020 15:39 utc | 279

I wouldn't say he's lying, but he's definitely being disengenous. Kinda like saying since politicians x, y, z are taking kickbacks, they are obviously corrupt and therefore taxation is just one big scam. So yeah, he uses clever-sounding but false logic that fools a lot of people.

Posted by: Carciofi | Mar 14 2020 21:57 utc | 331

On an earlier comment I said ‘ virus is just one weapon in a USA war against the world public ‘ and that there would be further tactics ! So here on MOA we have become used to the usual onslaught of misinformation that follows one of there sick false flag attacks (I won’t list them) but then there follows the wave of misinformed ignorants from the public —
@326 as an example.
As I speak they are flooding the MSM and internet with propergander films ! With only one aim - - -
THE SILENCE OF THE LAMBS
Don’t fall for it. This Virus and resulting apocalypse will be of the scale.
Here in the U.K. killing off pensioners is being normalised as socially exceptable !
You will be next !
Dont be a ‘freandly rebel’ we all know how that ends !

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 14 2020 21:59 utc | 332

Peter AU1 #314 and

Stonebird

Take vitamin C in those quantities and your immune system will be fucked. look up the metabolism cycle of C, copper, zinc ect.


China response to C in life or death circumstances with corona v

http://www.doctoryourself.com/cathcart_C_summary.html

Not a bad website and rational.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 14 2020 22:01 utc | 333

Smith #328

Holy fuck, the number of confirmed cases are insane. The latin "greeting by kissing" and open border countries of the EU, prepare thine anus.

That orifice was well prepared decades ago but the U$A oligarchy slipped in first.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 14 2020 22:04 utc | 334

Stonebird thanks for the link.

I had been looking at the inflammation aspect of coronavirus pneumonia. A major part of the problem from what I read is immune overreaction.
In my earlier comment I said taking large amounts of vitamin C would mess up the immune system by creating a copper deficiency. From what I can make of it, the Chinese are doing it here to try and modify or tone down the immune reaction.

"Vitamin C, also known as ascorbic acid, has antioxidant properties. When sepsis happens, the cytokine surge caused by sepsis is activated, and neutrophils in the lungs accumulate in the lungs, destroying alveolar capillaries. Early clinical studies have shown that vitamin C can effectively prevent this process. In addition, vitamin C can help to eliminate alveolar fluid by preventing the activation and accumulation of neutrophils, and reducing alveolar epithelial water channel damage. At the same time, vitamin C can prevent the formation of neutrophil extracellular traps, which is a biological event of vascular injury caused by neutrophil activation."

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 14 2020 22:05 utc | 335

thanks for the many comments here...

dan of steele, mina and many others.. thanks.. i have nothing to add.. here on the westcoast of canada, public events - theatres and small live music places are shutting down.. i've had 3 gigs cancel on me in the past 24 hours.. i am still playing tonight at a pub down the road, but not sure how many more gigs i will be doing in the next month.. it is looking like slim pickens'... fortunately i am not under pressure monetarily, but i am working with other musicians who are.. it is tough being self employed in this time set up..

Posted by: james | Mar 14 2020 22:25 utc | 336

c1ue #323

So simply terming "pneumonia" as inflammation is absolutely incorrect, and so is focusing just on inflammation control as a magic bullet.

Thanks c1ue, so is the inflammation response due to the rapid colonising from tubercular bacteria in the lung?

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 14 2020 22:40 utc | 337

Make what you will... "Mayor Feinen now claims the power to ban gun and ammo sales, the sale of alcohol, the opening of bars and taverns, and the sale of gasoline. The executive order also gives her the power to shut down electrical services and to take possession of private property within the city."

How Jolly! (Illinois Mayor May Ban Guns, Firearms Sales Over Coronavirus Panic)

Waalllwhaddyaknow...

Posted by: Walter | Mar 14 2020 22:42 utc | 338

Mina - 318
I'm growingly convinced free movement will be strongly contested when all this is over, if not dead all over Europe. Fucking ideological lunatics, all of them. I'm just sad there probably won't be firing squads as retribution for their mass murder.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Mar 14 2020 22:58 utc | 339

@330 ak74 | Mar 14 2020 21:45 utc

"I am talking about the fact that America is (horror) running out of toilet paper!!!!!!"

Indeed.

Message-101 from the ancient world to modern (and post-modern) knuckle-dragging Western 'exceptionals' .... you will halve your risk (metaphorically) if you use one hand (normally your left by social convention) to wipe your arse and touch things public (unclean) like money, your wallet etc; and your other hand (normally the right by social convention) to feed your face and shake hands (if you still do it, and know the other side follows the same conventions).

Strip away all the modern conveniences (a la toilet paper and the forests destroyed to feed this apparently necessary modern habit) and it soon becomes an evolutionary survival intelligence test for which there are few exceptions.

Posted by: imo | Mar 14 2020 23:18 utc | 340

Walter @ 338
Yep wally ! This suckers gunna blow !!
I spent some time looking on youtube to see what ‘it’ will look like. At old saved video’s i’d Followed in there time — —
North Dakota pipe line protest. 95% of vids taken down. But some showing the police brutality still there. Ditto Black Lives Matter protests against the brutal police killings.
I contend that both of those, were deliberate training exercises for what we will see now ! The cops are trained and fully equipped . Is that a coincidence ? Both of the above were at the beginning of the ‘rise of the Trump far right !
So here we are from there to here in one presidential turd cluster.

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 14 2020 23:18 utc | 341

Everywhere I look, this is the definition of pneumonia.

"Pneumonia is an infection in one or both lungs. Bacteria, viruses, and fungi cause it. The infection causes inflammation in the air sacs in your lungs,"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus_disease_2019
"Tocilizumab, an immunosuppressive drug, mainly used for the treatment of rheumatoid arthritis, has been included in treatment guidelines by China's National Health Commission[93] and is undergoing testing in 5 hospitals in Italy after showing positive results in patients with severe disease."

I think you have got yourself too tangled up in big words c1ue.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 14 2020 23:20 utc | 342

http://www.ansa.it/english/news/general_news/2020/03/13/3-patients-get-better-on-arthritis-drug_90d4764d-d93f-463e-ab07-168b34b084d0.html
(ANSA) - Naples, March 13 - Three patients suffering with pneumonia caused by the coronavirus have got better on an arthritis drug, a Naples hospital said Friday.
The patients at Cotugno Hospital have shown "a major improvement" after being treated with Tolicizumab, Paolo Ascierto, head of clinical immunology at another city hospital, the Pascale.
Other Italian hospitals have reported similar improvements of virus-linked pneumonia after treatment with the drug.

https://www.ilmessaggero.it/italia/coronavirus_farmaco_artrite_ultime_notizie_news_napoli-5109045.html (yandex translate.
Coronavirus, it strengthens the edge of hope of getting to locate a cure to help the sick of Covid-19. At Naples, 3 patients improved thanks to the experimentation of a drug born for a completely different disease, Tocilizumab, the monoclonal antibody used forrheumatoid arthritis, of Roche , which announced the sale for free. The tests were started in China and l'Italy has joined with l'hospital Cotugno of Naples. Now thehealth ministry is evaluating the results to give the go-ahead for the trial. The results were defined very encouraging as well as those for the use ofantiviral Remdesivir (of Gilead) who has obtained the go-ahead to be proven, in the preliminary stage, in 5 reference centers for the fight against coronavirus.
.....

Anti inflammatories for the inflammation and Remdesvivir for the virus. Quinine is affective as Remdesvivir apparently.

Sounds like stocking up on gin and tonic (original Brit officer strength tonic) and ibufen will be a better option than buying the supermarket out of crap paper.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 14 2020 23:33 utc | 343

@ peter... a guy from italy named marco posted about this a few days or was it yesterday? about this same thing.. it's interesting..


"Italian newspaper Coronavirus, tocilizumab: good results on two serious patients. A protocol is urgently needed to extend drug use Machine translate:
"In 24 hours the therapy has shown excellent results and we are evaluating today the opportunity to extubate one of the two patients, because his conditions have improved", says Ascierto: "Today we will give tocilizumab to two other people hospitalized in Naples and other patients have already received therapy in the centers of Bergamo, Fano and Milan. This drug can only be used in Covid-19 pneumonia 'off label', that is, outside the indications for which it is registered, but it is very important that your use is extended as soon as possible, so we can save more lives. Our structure together with the Colli Hospital was the first in Italy to use this therapy in patients with coronavirus ".

The drug had been used in China, where an improvement in the condition of 20 coronavirus patients out of 21 treated in about 24-48 hours was observed. A 'bridge' was therefore created with Chinese doctors: "Only international collaboration will allow us to develop effective weapons against Covid-19", underlines Gerardo Botti, Scientific Director of 'Pascale': "The positive results of tocilizumab they must now be validated, and for this a multi-center study at national level is needed ".

Posted by: Marco | Mar 12 2020 17:26 utc | 264"

Posted by: james | Mar 14 2020 23:44 utc | 344

Thanks james. I have had to deal with inflammation and immune reactions for a big part of my life so when I saw that a good part of coronavirus pneumonia consisted of inflammation it got my interest.

Back around 2007-08 when I first got crook with the shit I've got, my right foot started flopping when I walked. Ankle would roll if I wasn't very careful where I put my foot. Ended up getting referred to a neurologist and she diagnosed it as something with a medical name that took up two lines on an A4. Basis of it was, there was inflammation in the mylin sheath that insulates a nerve and that was shorting out so no signal was getting to the muscle.
She said there was no cure, I would just have to live with it. Back at home for a few days and I had the bright idea that if inflammation was the problem then anti inflammatories might fix it.
Dosed up on ibufen and within a few days my foot was working again.
Fixes aren't always that easy I guess but one thing I have found is that very few doctors understand inflammation.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 15 2020 0:10 utc | 345

Thankfully CUBA is a friend indeed.

Cuba helps out with interferon

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 15 2020 0:36 utc | 346

@ Wally
"Wally made a sally for the XYL."

What's yer QTH?

Posted by: AntiSpin | Mar 15 2020 0:39 utc | 347

Into the Eye of the Cytokine Storm


Microbiol Mol Biol Rev. 2012 Mar; 76(1): 16–32.
doi: 10.1128/MMBR.05015-11
PMCID: PMC3294426
PMID: 22390970

Jennifer R. Tisoncik,a Marcus J. Korth,a Cameron P. Simmons,b Jeremy Farrar,b Thomas R. Martin,c and Michael G. Katzea
Author information Copyright and License information Disclaimer

ABSTRACT
Summary: The cytokine storm has captured the attention of the public and the scientific community alike, and while the general notion of an excessive or uncontrolled release of proinflammatory cytokines is well known, the concept of a cytokine storm and the biological consequences of cytokine overproduction are not clearly defined. Cytokine storms are associated with a wide variety of infectious and noninfectious diseases. The term was popularized largely in the context of avian H5N1 influenza virus infection, bringing the term into popular media. In this review, we focus on the cytokine storm in the context of virus infection, and we highlight how high-throughput genomic methods are revealing the importance of the kinetics of cytokine gene expression and the remarkable degree of redundancy and overlap in cytokine signaling. We also address evidence for and against the role of the cytokine storm in the pathology of clinical and infectious disease and discuss why it has been so difficult to use knowledge of the cytokine storm and immunomodulatory therapies to improve the clinical outcomes for patients with severe acute infections.


Posted by: pogohere | Mar 15 2020 0:39 utc | 348

@ 345 peter au... what i have found is it is good to get at least a few different opinions from doctors.. taking any one docs word on anything is a mistake as i see it... good for you that you were able to figure that much out and help yourself... i try the best i can to avoid any type of medical intervention - whatever it is in terms of medicine... but i know that some situations require medical intervention.. hopefully we get the best we can and are not sent down the wrong path in that regard.. thanks for sharing..

Posted by: james | Mar 15 2020 0:44 utc | 349

Peter AU1 #342

It is worth closely reading "The Great Influenza Pandemic: What Really Happened in 1918?" by Broxmeyer.

This gives you a better picture of the human condition and the resident bacteria that most of us have and that are normally kept below any threat level. This barrier can be weakened by other invaders thus releasing the tubercular response and lung drowning.

It was linked earlier in this thread and I found it informative and it points to managing inflammation as a cornerstone to therapy. I am not decided on the 'virus as cause' logic but it is possible that a virus has broken the barrier and the tuberculosis bacteria run amok and do the dirty work.

There is so much science to consider alongside the informed knowledge of those brilliant frontline people that care for the afflicted. BRAVO to every one of them.

I am sticking with cleanliness, traditional Chinese medicine and vitamin C etc. Happy to consider anything that frontline practitioners report as working in a multitude of cases.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 15 2020 0:50 utc | 350

james and uncle tungsten
Problem I have with herbal medicine is ability to match chemical compounds in plants and so forth to pathogen or condition. In some cases different pathogens can cause similar symptoms, and plants containing usefull compounds also at time contain harmful compounds.
Most medicine until recently has come from chemical compounds in plants.
I spent a lot of money and got very sick at one stage going that way.
Rarely have doctors helped either but my research of scientific medical research then going to a doctor and asking for and paying for specific tests along various process of elimination has helped me get on top of most issues now.
A lot of my issues with immune response though, I believe are related to a known gene which I have.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 15 2020 1:18 utc | 351

Do you guys remember what had happened to the more than a few American tourists who suddenly collapsed and mysteriously died in the Dominican Republic? Remember they thought the tourists were being poisoned. They had respiratory failure and their lungs were filled with fluid! Guess what?! That is also the cause of death of the Coronavirus!
We are dealing here with a bio-terrorist!
See the following article about the mysterious American deaths in the Dominican Republic:
https://nypost.com/2019/07/24/inside-the-reports-of-deaths-sickness-that-have-consumed-dominican-republic/

Posted by: dave | Mar 15 2020 1:25 utc | 352

@Norwegian #329
Coincidences happen all the time, everywhere.
The "coincidence" of 2 people having the same birthday in a room of 23 is actually a statistical 50% chance.
Equally, the chance that a virus arose out of China, jumping species from consumed animal to people, is also very high. Let's not forget: swine flu and SARS happened in the last 20 years already.
Are you going to lay the blame for swine flu and SARS on bioweapons as well?

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 15 2020 1:36 utc | 353

AntiSpin | Mar 15 2020 0:39 utc | 347 Q sig

She's +70 - ergo XYL

My morse days began about the time Stevenson lost.

CN80td (possibly)

Let's return to topic... K

Posted by: Walter | Mar 15 2020 1:37 utc | 354

@uncle tungsten #337
Inflammation is the bodies immune system fighting off an infection.
Supposedly, a cytokine storm is where the inflammation is occurring where it doesn't need to and/or is sticking around a lot longer than it needs to.
Thus inflammation itself is simply a sign of the immune system working, but it can overdo itself and cause more harm than good.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 15 2020 1:39 utc | 355

@Peter AU1 #

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 15 2020 1:40 utc | 356

@Peter AU1 #342
The problem I have with your description is you are terming inflammation as automatically bad.
Inflammation is what happens when the body's immune system is at work. The immune system can absolutely go awry and do more harm than good - but it is not at all clear to me that unilaterally reducing inflammation is a good thing.
Does the immune system work as well when the inflammatory response is reduced? After all, it occurs for a reason.

In particular: the immune response is leukocytes coming to eat/kill invaders while inflammatory response is antibodies aggregating to invaders. The inflammatory response is at least partly what attracts the leukocytes (types of white blood cells) to the area under attack.

I can easily see how the inflammatory response can be overdone - that's how SARS-1 killed young people. But we're not seeing this with nCOV - it isn't killing young people so it clearly triggers a different type of inflammatory response.

This is why I am continuing to differentiate between inflammation and pneumonia - it has nothing to do with definitions but does relate to understanding what is really going on.

For example: it is known that flu infections in the lungs cause tissue damage - which can lead to bacteria invading. Is reducing the inflammatory response a good idea in this case? Not clear to me. Maybe antibiotics are such that the immune response isn't necessary?

Inflammation also occurs due to dead tissue. If the infection is under control, then reducing over-reaction to the presence of dead tissue could be net positive.

Point being - inflammation isn't the enemy, it is a symptom.

Being too simplistic about anything the body does is precisely the main criticism of Western medical practices.

Furthermore - your own focus on "improving the immune response" is therefore counterproductive if you also believe inflammation is bad. The immune system is exactly what is causing the inflammation - and making it stronger would make the inflammatory response greater.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 15 2020 1:54 utc | 357

Peter AU1@345
Avoiding addictions, environmental toxins, walking during daylight, eating a healthy diet and stress reduction all contribute to reducing disease (dis-ease) potential.

Diet can contribute to the progression of viral infections and secondary bacterial infections. For example here is a chapter on omega-3 inhibition of omega-6 fatty acids-derived pro-inflammatory eicosanoids.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-1-4020-8831-5_5
and
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0952327818300747

The American diet is loaded with vegetable fats high in omega-6 fatty acids which would indicate that many Americans on a fast food diet high in food like substances will suffer more from inflammatory responses to viral infections. See the great post by pogohere@348 for more information on cytokine storms....

As for vitamin C the following recommendations may be of use to you.
http://blogs.oregonstate.edu/linuspaulinginstitute/2015/05/28/questions-about-vitamin-c/

Oregon State University also has recommendations on micronutrients that may be of use in optimizing cellular health.
https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/micronutrient-inadequacies/overview

Vitamin/hormone D has numerous benefits including reduction of inflammation, especially when taken with vitamin K2-mks7
https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/vitamin-D
https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/vitamin-K

for those who are not too far gone here is a good video on relaxation exercises (in French)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0WOtPpyCH0

Posted by: Krollchem | Mar 15 2020 1:58 utc | 358

Presumptive cases here in Oregon jumped 20% in two days (from 30 to 36), testing backlog is growing. All Oregon K-12 schools are closed, and today the Eugene public library closed at least through end of March, now that's serious! I'm in voluntary partial lockdown, as are many of my friends, only essential trips at this point.

Posted by: Trisha | Mar 15 2020 2:04 utc | 359

Peter AU1 #351

Agreed on the vulnerability of relying on a singular approach. I see my allopath practitioner when needed or seeking a blood test analysis or a specialist referral. I take it all with a careful scepticism and serious research.

Most of my aches and pains I have resolved with deep tissue massage and my own Bach Flower remedy kit but when mean and nasty things attack I am quick off the mark to get them analysed and back in the bottle by whatever works.

It is wise to avoid a singularity for remedy, certainly try one at a time to differentiate and then stick with the functional path. The thing I keep in mind about Traditional Chinese Medicine is its longevity. Its been around a long while and the transfer of knowledge and practice has been carefully recorded uninterrupted over many centuries. Modern pharmaceuticals are fine too. Recently had to stick my head inside a Gamma Knife procedure and I trust nuclear medicine you can be sure.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 15 2020 2:12 utc | 360

Krollchem
The one thing that has been a big help apart from anti inflammatory is mineral supplements. Most medicine says we have everything in our diets therefore we dont have mineral deficiencies. Its not whats in the food that counts, rather uptake. Very hard to find any info on that subject relating to humans but in australia, reams and reams of research into minerals and trace elements (micro nutrients for the yuppy term) in livestock - how to recognise deficiencies, balance between and how the various minerals react with each other and the metabolism.
A site called accu cell was the only thing I found that came close to research on minerals in livestock and I found that a big help.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 15 2020 2:14 utc | 361

c1ue
just watch the results of the Italians and Chinese and forget the bullshit. they are treating coronavirus with anti inflammatory and getting results. That is the shit that counts, not storms in teacups and other fad terminology trying to say it doesn't work.

This is the link to an article, a section of which james posted up thread a bit.
https://www.news1.news/u/2020/03/coronavirus-tocilizumab-good-results-on-two-serious-patients-a-protocol-is-urgently-needed-to-extend-drug-use.html

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 15 2020 2:23 utc | 362

I'm so sorry to all here, I just don't have the time that this thread and Blog deserves - Thank you B.

#218 #219

Some pretty damning stuff there if it can be supported. I believe Walter picks up on some aspects and the GlobalResearch creepy "LOCKSTEP" article adds context.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/all-sectors-us-establishment-lock-step-deep-states-latest-bio-war/5702773


If one follows this rabbithole the name Dilyana Gaytandzhieva comes up - some may remember her from the expose on arms ratlines to Syria?

https://www.thelastamericanvagabond.com/top-news/bats-gene-editing-bioweapons-recent-darpa-experiments-raise-concerns-amid-coronavirus-outbreak/

She fronted an interesting piece back in 2018 Re: US Diplomats trafficking human blood/pathogens for secret military program. We'll see if a follow up emerges in the near future, (I seriously hope she wipes her door handle every day).

http://dilyana.bg/us-diplomats-involved-in-trafficking-of-human-blood-and-pathogens-for-secret-military-program/

Hopefully the best among you can flesh this out further, I feel a dim light of the oncoming express is starting to show.

Posted by: dennis | Mar 15 2020 2:52 utc | 363

uncle tungsten 360

I was thinking about China's response to coronavirus, their willingness to test known drugs based on theory and the results they are getting.
Scientific medicine with chinese characteristics...
Best doctor I saw had qualified as a GP, then after becoming ill himself looked into and became qualified in chinese herbal medicine. Very good to talk to.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 15 2020 3:36 utc | 364

Peter AU1@361

Best wishes in improving your cellular health as the hyped magic vaccine bullets are over a year away. Besides vaccines are hit and miss from year to year. You will note that I posted the documentation on almost all current vaccine development in the earlier thread.

As a stopgap measure there is some work being done on B cell antibodies until a partially effective vaccine is produced
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/darpas-pandemic-prevention-platform-could-develop-therapeutic-shield-fight-covid-19-summer

Personally, I will choose cellular biochemical prevention rather than be injected with toxins such as organic mercury used as vaccine preservatives.

Besides, as I stated in an earlier thread, secondary infections are often the hazard in critical care of victims of viral infections
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2020/03/bill-sardi/trump-halts-cdc-fearmongering-but-why-are-antibiotics-not-anti-virals-quelling-the-covid-19-coronavirus-is-it-really-a-virus/

Posted by: krollchem | Mar 15 2020 4:08 utc | 365

Peter AU1 #363

Best doctor I saw had qualified as a GP, then after becoming ill himself looked into and became qualified in chinese herbal medicine. Very good to talk to.

I had a detailed discussion with my Traditional Chinese Medicine practitioner (who is a very sage and knowledgeable human)two days ago who said 2020 is the year of plague + the year of spring. The combination being a magnification of each other. Plague Years recur every twelve years and I am unsure of Spring years but I will do more reading this week on the matter to work out their conjunction episodes. So,...the worst time is in the spring in either hemisphere so expect recurrence with gusto in September in Oz.

Fascinating science.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 15 2020 4:18 utc | 366

Peter AU1@361

Mineral deficiencies are becoming more widespread due to glyphosides that chelate trace minerals in the soil and leach them out of the rooting zone. The process eventually mimics the albic spodosol horizon (podosols for the British) a Australian acacia tree creates within its rooting zone.

Once conducted mine reclamation research in B.C. Canada and tried unsuccessfully to point out the hazard of molybdenum induced copper deficiency in ruminants grazing on molybdenum mine tailings at the Endako mine. Such issues are so often overlooked among non-specialists.

My wife reminded me that this is not the end of the world but the end of the illusion(s). stay safe.

Posted by: krollchem | Mar 15 2020 4:21 utc | 367

krollchem
I think I will keep an eye on what the Chinese are doing. They look to be getting results.
Anti malaria drugs are showing good results in in vitro testing and China is now testing them on patients. Side effects of these drugs already known. Pneumonia due to coronavirus consists of damage due to virus and damage due to immune response. Rheumatism anti inflammatory has shown good results so worth keeping an eye on. Off the shelf stuff is not exactly magic bullet.

There is a chance these things the Chinese are trying and getting results from won't be so good on a larger group but they will be well worth keeping an eye on. If they are having success US big pharma will try and bring them down so yanks have got to pay or die but whatever. Like selling toothpaste for sensitive teeth instead of correcting magnesium deficiency.
Lot of fucking crap in the medical world, mostly eliminating from US big pharma and radiating out.


Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 15 2020 4:29 utc | 368

krollchem 366

Your post @ 366 is getting into my world. Appreciate it.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 15 2020 4:37 utc | 369

Peter AU1@367

Speaking of mineral deficiencies, here is an article on zinc inhibition of coronavirus (SARS-CoV. Caution, best to limit zinc supplements to less than 40 mg/day.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2973827/

Michel Chretien is setting up trials for combatting SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) using a derivative of quercetin, which is a natural anti-inflammatory plant component.
https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/a-made-in-canada-solution-to-the-coronavirus-outbreak/

In depth interview of this research in Canadian French:
https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1538011/quercetine-coronavirus-michel-chretien-ircm-montreal-patrice-roy

Dr. Michel Chretien’s background and research:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6H0VJZG2Pjk

Quercetin and the mixture of isoquercitrin have been found to suppress the arthropod-borne Mayaro virus (MAYV) occurring in forested areas in tropical South America:
https://parasitesandvectors.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1756-3305-7-130

Posted by: Krollchem | Mar 15 2020 4:47 utc | 370

krollchem

Re leached soils. Most of Australia surface is very old, weathered, and leached of minerals so various trace elements are required along with the main minerals in fertilizer.
I the arid or semi arid grazing regions the stock need mineral supplements, especially when on dry feed so a great deal of research available in that area. But at the working end, especially with livestock, recognising symptoms. A couple I remember - phosphorus deficiency sheep and cattle chew on bones, another I picked up sulfur deficiency and cattle will eat brigalow which they normally never do. Many more for various deficiencies but I forget them now.
Mineral deficiencies create cravings - pregnant women with various food cravings is common their body is chasing minerals... but this aspect the cravings the first symptoms of deficiencies in humans are not studied, understood, or recognised for that matter...

Getting a long way off topic for the thread here so I had better pull up.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 15 2020 4:53 utc | 371

krollchem

Some trivia on trace elements or 'micronutrients' for the yuppy types.
Not that long back, the complete animal was eaten. Still is in many parts of the world. Organ meats or offal are very high in the trace elements, but in the west, these are mostly discarded.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psuX7rpybA4

Recognising this, I still cant eat the stuff. Used to always get sheep liver and kidneys as a kid when the old man killed a sheep but didn't like it. Tried it again when I was looking into this stuff and still tasted like crap to me though many do like lambs fry and bacon and that sort of thing. I guess I should be trying a few more offal meats but never got around to it.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 15 2020 6:11 utc | 372

Peter AU1@370

Thanks for the soil science discussion as it brings back memories from prior life experiences. People talk a lot about global warming but the thin layer of soils are what we live off.

Best wishes..

Posted by: Krollchem | Mar 15 2020 6:15 utc | 373

Peter AU1@371

I look at this crisis from a prevention point of view. Here is another approach to getting in front of this infection:

There is evidence that zinc and either hydroxychloroquine and quercetin may be effective in suppressing SARS-CoV-2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE4_LsftNKM&feature=emb_logo

As for testing, we are well beyond testing according to Dr. Campbell and others. Besides, America is running out of chemicals for the test kits.

Posted by: Krollchem | Mar 15 2020 7:37 utc | 374

Krollchem

No idea how Australia is off for test kits but far as I know geared up for large scale testing. Daughter said ventilators will be the issue if government does not flatten out the infection curve.
Watched the video and looks promising from what I could make of it, it had only been tested in vitro and they were about to commence testing in China. The anti malaria drugs worked well in vitro and are now being tested on patients.

Not sure if Remdesvivir hangs around at all but from what I read earlier quinine does. I believe it was used as a preventive medicine against malaria. More side effects apparently than Remdesvivir.

Good thing about China taking the lead in this is that it puts US big pharma out of the picture.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 15 2020 8:15 utc | 375

re self help response to viral illnesses.

I once listened to an interview with a medical person specialising in viral medicine. She observed that the bodies response to viral attack was to produce a fever, which if allowed to go high enough damaged the telemeres of the virus and prevented it from replicating. The problem she observed with most virus victims was that they immediately reached for the ibuprofen or other similar drugs that reduced the fever, thus allowing the continued replication of the virus and continuation of the illness.

Sadly I don't have a link, but it has stuck with me and any time I get the flu, which has been only a couple of times in the last 10 years I have just gone to bed and sweated it out.

The other observation is that removing all the white crap from your diet will reduce all manner of incipient health defects, and that can not be a bad thing. I lost 14kg in 6 weeks and it has stayed off. White shit equals starch, wheat flour products, rice, sugar, and milk.

I kept the cream tho. Ditched the icecream and just had real cream.

Posted by: eagle eye | Mar 15 2020 9:24 utc | 376

i wouldn't like to be the one coughing in this crowd
https://twitter.com/katyslittlefarm/status/1238949728680902658

Posted by: Mina | Mar 15 2020 9:27 utc | 377

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 15 2020 8:15 utc | 375

In vitro vs. in vivo behavior is very well explained here,

Simulations for DC in vivo responses to virus infection

The in vivo environment is different from the in vitro experiments discussed above in at least the following aspects: 1), the priming time of DCs, which is the time the immature uninfected DC is exposed to IFN, varies among cells; 2), the IFN in the tissue is not removed after infection; and 3), the in vivo IFN level at the site of infection is found to vary much more slowly over time when compared to our in vitro experiments (T. Hermesh, B. Moltedo, T. M. Moran, and C. B. Lopez, unpublished). We thus performed simulations with our model to compare IFN responses to virus infection under in vitro IFN pretreatment and in vivo IFN priming conditions. As the in vivo extracellular IFN level increases very slowly, we assumed a constant extracellular IFN level during the 10-h time span of our simulations.

We found that in the same conditions, IFN mRNA induction occurs at a faster rate in vivo than in vitro, and is determined by the level of IRF7 mRNA present in the cell at the early stages of influenza virus infection. Thus, the cell is better prepared to combat the virus in vivo than under similar conditions in vitro.

Immune Response Modeling of Interferon β-Pretreated Influenza Virus-Infected Human Dendritic Cells

Posted by: Carciofi | Mar 14 2020 21:57 utc | 331

I wouldn't say he's lying, but he's definitely being disengenous. Kinda like saying since politicians x, y, z are taking kickbacks, they are obviously corrupt and therefore taxation is just one big scam. So yeah, he uses clever-sounding but false logic that fools a lot of people.

You are using some interesting logic there. If a politician is taking kickbacks by definition he is corrupt unless where you live taking kickbacks is considered a bonus from the lobbyists. CO2 related taxes are a scam pulled off on the unaware or the gullible.

I'll take my chances listening to Dr. Ayyadurai as he certainly sounds more logical than what you are trying to serve.

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 15 2020 9:32 utc | 378

I posted this on the Saker as well,

An article in Zero Hedge also addresses this issuein a slight ly different way:
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/tverberg-it-easy-overdo-covid-19-quarantines

The conclusion is one that I would advocate based on my life experience:

"We also need to be looking for new approaches for fighting COVID-19. One approach that is not being used significantly to date is trying to strengthen people’s own immune systems. Such an approach might help people’s own immune system to fight off the disease, thereby lowering death rates. Nutrition experts recommend supplementing diets with Vitamins A, C, E, antioxidants and selenium. Other experts say zinc, Vitamin D and elderberry may be helpful. Staying away from cold temperatures also seems to be important. Drinking plenty of water after coming down with the disease may be beneficial as well. If we can help people’s own bodies fight the disease, the burden on the medical system will be lower."

I have rarely suffered from the "flu", maybe 3 or 4 times in my 60+ years (never had a flu shot), and rarely suffer from colds (usually ending within 3-4 days). When I do suffer from the latter, it is usually as a result of improper dress for inclement weather, or a week of indequate eating; that is, not usually eating a well balanced diet, as I usually strive to do.

So instead of accentuating the negative, maybe, we should consider strenthening the positive things we can do. Of course, the aged and infirm need to be dealt with otherwise. But the key for the rest of us is strengthening our immune systems.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Mar 15 2020 9:49 utc | 379

krollchem 367
Molybdenum balanced with copper is a constant for me now. I originally was able to get a molybdenum - copper- zinc supplement which I take it was in balanced proportions. Made a noticeable difference when I first started taking it. After a year or two they stopped making it and I could buy copper-zinc together and molybdenum separate. experimenting just taking molybdenum without the copper and I would quickly develop a lot of joint aches and pains. Taking one molybdenum pill to one copper zinc pill works.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 15 2020 9:49 utc | 380

Purple Dead Nettle Lamium purpureum, native to Eurasia and extensively introduced in the US, is a common prolific "weed" that contains quercetin. Preparations such as infusion (tea) or tincture are used to adjust the immune system and lessen excess inflammation.

The infusion also makes for a good antihistamine and anti-allergen, and the leaf or tea can be placed on a wound to stanch bleeding.

There's many other herbs which can be helpful as preventives or amelioratives. This one is especially common.

Posted by: Russ | Mar 15 2020 9:54 utc | 381

@371

> Not that long back, the complete animal was eaten. Still is in many parts of the world. Organ meats or offal are very high in the trace elements, but in the west, these are mostly discarded.

the practice remains mostly in 3rd world countries ... and i think China .. and Japan .. probably the Koreas (i've never traveled there).

in Japan these are eaten when drinking alcohol though :-( a few years back raw liver was still being served in pubs/izakayas until a string of medical cases sprung up. in the Philippines, everything is eaten.


@376

fever ... is the body telling itself to prepare for a battle ... a natural defense mechanism. in cases of bacterial/viral infection, the body gets hot 38-39C to make the body less hospitable to invading organisms. antipyretics has its place in medicine ... but IMHO not in cases of a microorganism attacking the body.

fever affecting the telemers ... is possible ... though i vaguely remember somebody posting here that even saunas can't kill SARS-CoV-2 ... i've read the virus can survive 5-days inactive on surfaces because of it's protein coating ... but surviving in a sauna? local sauna in my area is set at 80C.

i am not a doctor

Posted by: r | Mar 15 2020 9:57 utc | 382

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Mar 15 2020 9:49 utc | 379

Good to know as there are plenty of myths out there. One of the best was about how bad eggs were. Well when I was on a farm we ate them everyday as well as drank milk straight from the cow. Still living.

Q
To what extent does heating (boiling, baking) foods like vegetables destroy vitamins?

It’s true that cooking methods alter the nutritional composition of fruits and vegetables, but that’s not always a bad thing. Several studies have shown that while cooking can degrade some nutrients, it can enhance the availability of others. As a result, no single cooking or preparation method is best, and that includes eating vegetables raw.

Many people believe that raw vegetables are packed with more nutrition than cooked vegetables, but, again, it depends on the type of nutrient. One study of 200 people in Germany who ate a raw food diet found that they had higher levels of beta carotene, but their plasma lycopene levels were well below average. That’s likely because fresh, uncooked tomatoes actually have lower lycopene content than cooked or processed tomatoes. Cooking breaks down the thick cell walls of many plants, releasing the nutrients stored in them.

Water-soluble nutrients like vitamin C and vitamin B and a group of nutrients called polyphenolics seem to be the most vulnerable to degradation in processing and cooking. Canned peas and carrots lose 85 to 95 percent of their natural Vitamin C. After six months, another study showed that frozen cherries lost as much as 50 percent of anthocyanins, the nutrients found in the dark pigments of fruits and vegetables. Cooking removes about two-thirds of the vitamin C in fresh spinach.

Depending on the method used, loss of vitamin C during home cooking typically can range from 15 percent to 55 percent, according to a review by researchers at the University of California, Davis. Interestingly, vitamin C levels often are higher in frozen produce compared with fresh produce, likely because vitamin C levels can degrade during the storage and transport of fresh produce.

Fat-soluble compounds like vitamins A, D, E and K and the antioxidant compounds called carotenoids fare better during cooking and processing. A report in The Journal of Agriculture and Food Chemistry concluded that over all, boiling was better for carrots, zucchini and broccoli than steaming, frying or serving them raw. Frying vegetables was by far the worst method for preserving nutrients.


Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 15 2020 10:11 utc | 383

I hadn't read Krollchem's recent posts before posting mine 379, but would agre with him/her that enhancing prevention is the better approach to dealing with these viruses, except for those whose immune systems, through age or some infirmity need special care.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Mar 15 2020 10:11 utc | 384

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Mar 15 2020 10:11 utc | 384

Just listen to the part starting at 24:40 min regarding issues with aging and the immune system.

Aging

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 15 2020 10:19 utc | 385

The SARS-COV-2 has many surprises, it has novel routes to invade the cells through the CD-147 spike protein not seeing before:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.14.988345v1

This virus is a surprising bitch

Posted by: DFC | Mar 15 2020 11:11 utc | 386

Why is everybody looking at things through the prism of having or not having money.Clear up your spirit,and think about the fact that all of creation lives without it,except for us human suckers.It's a stupid invention.get rid of it,mentally for starters.Prepare for a real change.

Posted by: willie | Mar 15 2020 12:29 utc | 387

Anti-Capital's latest:

https://anticapital0.wordpress.com/the-emperors-new-virus/

Make the numbers look good? The numbers aren’t going to get better. The numbers can’t be made to look good. So the reverend buffoon, aided and abetted by the Attorney-General, protected by McConnell and 51 or 52 members of the empty suit-empty head club; spanked by Jeanine Pirro, and bought and paid for many times over by criminals, goons, charlatans–in a word entrepeneurs— will slowly realize that the numbers that matter to him (and them) are looking worse, and he will use the deteriorating situation reflected in his deteriorating numbers to proclaim another national emergency and cancel the 2020 election.

Bet on it.

Posted by: Barovsky |

Posted by: Barovsky | Mar 15 2020 12:35 utc | 388

So the best news wrt to the corona virus is the annulation of the soon to be performed big time NATO war game on the russian border,several commanders and generals having caught the virus,and soldiers in quarantine as well.
Hope it's true,because it scares me a lot more than your virus.

Posted by: willie | Mar 15 2020 12:38 utc | 389

Good map over the world over the spread:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%9320_coronavirus_pandemic_by_country_and_territory#/media/File:COVID-19_Outbreak_World_Map-Deaths.svg

Black: nations with atleast 1 kill
Red: nations with reported cases but no kill yet

Posted by: Zanon | Mar 15 2020 12:57 utc | 390

Pft@245 - I'll only emphasize the part about how few people have been tested in the U.S. The CDC criteria, stated another way, for NO TESTING REQUIRED/NO RISK : 1) Did the person travel from China? If they didn't then, 2) Did they have contact with a lab-confirmed case of COVID-19? If the answer to both is 'NO' then the person is not currently considered at risk, and health care providers CAN NOT send samples to the CDC for testing. Think of the implications of that. If you're in the ICU in the U.S. for flu/pneumonia and were not in contact with one of the 14 confirmed cases, then you just have the flu.It doesn't matter if the person was flying or on any other public transportation everywhere except China or was in any public setting where they may have contracted corona virus. It doesn't matter how many bowls of bat or pangolin soup they may have enjoyed recently. It does not matter what clinical symptoms are present or if a CAT scan shows pneumonia consistent with that found in other COVID-19 cases. In the U.S., those patients are not and will not be tested by the CDC today and have not be counted as COVID-19 'cases'. Today, they can only count as regular, 'seasonal' influenza-related pneumonia cases (or deaths) regardless of what the doctors suspect.The CDC itself has only been testing for COVID-19 since January 21, and only claims to have done 426 tests as of February 24 for the entire U.S. They claim they're not behind, so the criteria are so restrictive that only a handful of patients qualify for testing. So maybe 200 or so tests for the U.S. (14 confirmed) in addition to a couple hundred for the U.S. citizens evacuated from Wuhan and the Diamond Princess in Japan (39 confirmed). The CDC distributed COVID-19 test kits (700-800 tests per kit) to state labs starting on Feb. 3rd, but one of the reagents was found to be flawed so the kits are unusable. The CDC intends to produce and send out a replacement - someday. So far, nothing. Expect the count of confirmed COVID-19 cases in the U.S. to explode when state labs are finally able to test whichever patients they want vs. the CDC 'approved' high-risk cases. It will be to late and useless to do contact histories at that point. "Gosh, I had a long layover at Chicago-O'hare, but didn't get everyone's name in the terminal that day. Sorry!"

Posted by: PavewayIV | Feb 25 2020 4:43 utc | 302
------------------------

PavewayIV@302

I remember at the time that the patient also had to fill out a 'person of interest' form to be tested.  I commented that this makes them seem more like a terrorist than a patient. Turns out that classified meetings on the coronavirus have been going on since mid January and the response to the virus is being handled by the national security council rather than by public health agencies.  It seems that the last part of March was when it was thought to hit the US hard which may be why we are seeing all the restrictions.  Time will tell.

https://www.mintpressnews.com/us-intelligence-unsettling-role-classified-9-11-like-coronavirus-response/265687/

""While the plans of the federal government remain classified, recent reports have revealed that the military and intelligence communities — now working with the NSC to develop the government’s coronavirus response — have anticipated a massive explosion in cases for weeks. U.S. military intelligence came to the conclusion over a month ago that coronavirus cases would reach “pandemic proportions” domestically by the end of March.""

Posted by: financial matters | Mar 15 2020 13:37 utc | 391

At a ‘moment’ in time like this, I suggest we find out who are the good guys and who are the bad guys ?
OK so here is the Mark2 ‘ Gold standard test ‘ I’ll give them 24 hours !!!
Lift all the sanctions !! World wide ! Now !
Palistine
Iran
Syria
Venezuela
Russia
China
Ect Ect
Do it and do it NOW ! Or you America. Britain and Israel are the bad guy / virus perpetrators !

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 15 2020 13:37 utc | 392

to Peter AU1. Thanks for many interesting posts. Re mineral deficiencies in animals, in the thoroughbred race horse business, in which I worked for some years, a great deal of attention has been paid to mineral deficiencies. It is well know that horses will eat odd things if they suffer a deficiency. Many trainers/caretakers watch carefully for these indications. This has been known for many many years. In spain it's called "pica" It is "interesting" and sad that more attention has been paid to optimal animal nutrition than to humans. Of course, on the dark side, there are plenty of humans who want to cut corners and resort to drugs growth hormones etc. etc. This may seem a bit off topic, but I am contrasting the chinese response to treating virus patients (and the cubans) with the murcan money focus.

Posted by: Miss Lacy | Mar 15 2020 13:56 utc | 393

@ Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 15 2020 3:36 utc | 364

Using broad-spectrum antibiotics/antivirals is common practice when a doctor doesn't know which infection the patient has or has an infection with no known treatment yet. Hence the many antivirals people here have been listing.

In pandemics, doctors have a poetic license to use antibiotics or other medicines that are not listed to treat it. Everything is valid because the situation is dire and very urgent.

That's why I would recommend everybody giving advices here to stop it, because it will just fuel false hope and strengthen pseudo-science (e.g. I've read here many people prescripting vitamin-C, garlic, honey, quinine etc.).

Posted by: vk | Mar 15 2020 13:57 utc | 394

Paradigm change in the making...

Hymn of China sounding from Rome´s balconies...

https://twitter.com/Jjsb441/status/1239137465988001793

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 15 2020 14:37 utc | 395

European union is a mess!

In a shameful abdication of responsibility, fellow countries in the European Union have failed to give medical assistance and supplies to Italy during an outbreak. China is filling the void.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/14/coronavirus-eu-abandoning-italy-china-aid/

Posted by: Zanon | Mar 15 2020 14:39 utc | 396

Maintaining a healthy immune system in today's world must be a Herculean task given what is put in our food.

Food additives

Should be interesting to see how the baking industry will react after all this clears up (I'm being sarcastic). I suspect like usual, faint knowing nothing say nothing.

L-Cysteine in Bread Products Still Mostly Sourced from Human Hair, Duck Feathers, Hog Hair
Posted on March 09, 2011 by The VRG Blog Editor

by Jeanne Yacoubou, MS
VRG Research Director

The VRG recently surveyed food ingredient manufacturers and suppliers as well as bread and bagel companies to find out if the animal sources of the common amino acid dough conditioner and human and pet food reaction flavor used to make flavor enhancers, L-cysteine, were still dominant in the marketplace as they were in 2007 when we last reported on L-cysteine. The answer was a resounding "yes."

One leading amino acid supplier reported to us in February 2011 that "duck feathers or human hair" were the sources, based on an official statement received from its Chinese supplier.

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 15 2020 14:40 utc | 397

Posted by: Zanon | Mar 15 2020 14:39 utc | 396

That's what happens when you join the Belt and Road Initiative. If Italy needed jet fighters there would no shortage of offers "to help".

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 15 2020 14:42 utc | 398

RT is reporting that the UK is going to make people over 70 years old locked up in their homes, 'for their own good'.
Pathetic.

@Mark2:
The empire and it's allies appreciate you still not knowing who the bad guys are.

Posted by: SharonM | Mar 15 2020 14:42 utc | 399

Some people are flipping over that Germany has over 4500 infected and has only reported 8 deads, as if COVID-19 would behave different in Germany than in the rest of Europe...Doubtful.

https://twitter.com/Laura_cruzd/status/1239101362039857152

So far, the countries who have showed less transparence with respect their data on patient zero, infected, and dead, are the US, UK, and Germany. Three countries vith huge economic issues before this pandemic started....

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 15 2020 14:43 utc | 400

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