Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 26, 2020

More Bits On The Corona Crisis

Donald Trump's MAGA is successful.

The U.S. is providing the world with another example of its great exceptionalism. In a few days it will have the greatest number of Covid-19 cases and the greatest number of casualties of the disease. It will also have spent the greatest amount of money on the crisis with the smallest part of it going to the people who need it.

It is not a nice picture and it makes me sad.

The more than two trillion dollar the lobbyists told Congress to put into their 800+ pages relief bill will mostly go to very rich people. It is  corporate socialism - a bail out for investors and managers.

Contrast that with the Russian president Vladimir Putin who, in an address to the Russian people, allocated most of the money for the unemployed, the retired and for families:

Then, with special flourish, Mr. Putin used the impending crisis to fix several unpopular tax loopholes favoring the very rich, so that the proceeds of the new taxes may be used to offset some of the costs of the social protection measures now being introduced for the great majority of the working population, for families, etc.

To name one such abuse, he is calling for all remittances of dividends and the like by physical persons to offshore ‘tax havens’ where they go untaxed, now to be subjected to a 15% income tax in Russia. The double taxation treaties with those tax haven countries allowing this abuse will be amended accordingly.

The U.S. as well as other countries is still not doing enough to slow down or even stop the outbreak.

The Wall Street Journal today reports (paywalled but quoted here) what we emphasized in our earlier pieces. The lockdown in Wuhan on January 23 was not enough to end the growth of the number of cases.

It was only after February 2, when Wuhan introduced the isolation of suspected cases and of people who had close contact with confirmed cases, that it gained a grip on the crisis:

What really turned the tide in Wuhan was a shift after Feb. 2 to a more aggressive and systematic quarantine regime whereby suspected or mild cases—and even healthy close contacts of confirmed cases—were sent to makeshift hospitals and temporary quarantine centers.

The tactics required turning hundreds of hotels, schools and other places into quarantine centers, as well as building two new hospitals and creating 14 temporary ones in public buildings. It also underscored the importance of coronavirus testing capacity, which local authorities say was expanded from 200 tests a day in late January to 7,000 daily by mid-February.

To send anyone who has mild symptoms home to be cared for by family only increases the speed of the epidemic as all family members are then likely to get catch the virus.

Tests and care for Covid-19 must be for free. We need hospitals to care for only the critical cases. We need quarantine centers to isolate the milder cases from the wider population. Many hotels, sport arenas and exhibition halls are currently empty. They can be converted into quarantine stations within a day or two. People will have to stay for only two weeks. They would be fed and would have medical attention. That is a small restriction of the freedom of a few for a large benefit for our societies.

We must also introduce the wearing of a mask in public as a new social norm:

A number of studies have reported that a significant portion of people are even spreading the virus while presymptomatic — in the day or two before they start to feel ill. Presymptomatic spreaders are, well, gonna spread. It’s not their fault.

How much this type of transmission is driving the pandemic is unclear but it could be significant. Gabriel Leung, dean of medicine at the University of Hong Kong, has estimated about 40% of cases transmit before symptoms develop. A recent preprint — a study that has not yet been peer-reviewed — from China pooled data from seven countries and estimated a very similar 43%.

The novel coronavirus is spread to a great extent by people who stay asymptomatic and by people who do not yet feel sick but will later show symptoms. When they talk, sneeze or cough they release small droplets that carry viruses. The droplets can stay in the air for some time. If a person coming along inhales those droplets the viruses will likely infect that person.

Those who have have the virus or might spread it should wear a mask because it prevents their droplets from flying out. Those who do not have the virus should wear a mask to prevent droplets from entering their body.

We were told that 'masks don't work' because they are not a 100% protection. The very tiny viruses can pass behind the mask at its sides or they can slip through its webbing. But the virus is not traveling alone but as part of a droplet. Even a relatively wide webbing may hold it up. If it is doubled with a sheet of cosmetic paper towel in between the protection will be even better. Microfilter bags for vacuum cleaners and so called HEPA filters are also effective materials that are readily available and easy to turn into masks.

The development of the epidemic will depend on how many people will start to regularly wear masks when they are not at home. Even if the protection masks prevent only 50% of new infections the speed with which the epidemic will unfold will be significantly lower.

Source: Financial Times - bigger

Consider that the societies in the blue circle are all ones where people regularly wear masks while the other countries (except China which was surprised by the outbreak) are societies were wearing a mask is seen as unusual. These 'blue' countries, which also gained experience during the SARS and MERS epidemics, show significant flatter trajectories.

Graphs similar to the above for all U.S. states and territories can be found here.

Meanwhile U.S. media continue to spread anti-China propaganda:

Two European Countries Report High Error Rate For Chinese Supplied Coronavirus Tests

Medical personnel in Spain and the Czech Republic have reported that the coronavirus rapid tests their respective countries have received from China are faulty and have a high error rate.

Several labs in Spanish hospitals have reported that the test kits they purchased, manufactured by Chinese company Bioeasy and based in Shenzhen, have a sensitivity of 30% when the sensitivity should be above 80%, Spanish newspaper El País reported Thursday. Due to the test’s lack of reliability, medical personnel in Spain have switched back to the PCR test, which takes up to four hours for a diagnosis, while rapid tests take between 10 to 15 minutes

The Spanish government purchased 340,000 tests from the Chinese company, a similar quantity to the tests ordered by the Czech Republic, where medical personnel also report an 80% failure rate.

When one checks the original reports from Spain and from the Czech Republic one learns that these countries bought anti-body tests which only react when a person has had the virus for some time and developed anti-bodies against it. These tests can obviously not be used to find persons who are infected but have not yet developed anti-bodies.

China's ambassador in Spain also pointed out that these tests have yet to be verified by the regulator and were imported without the help or knowledge of the Chinese government.

The anti-body tests are valuable to identify people who have developed current immunity against the virus. These people can then care for those who are most endangered by the disease. Anti-body tests are quick. They can be used anywhere. 

The polymerase chain reaction (PCR) tests which are currently necessary to find if someone has the virus take at least four hours and  specialized laboratories to process them. We will need a much quicker reliable test if we want to put our economies back to work. Luckily several companies and academic groups are already working on these and a 45 minute test is now ready to be marketed.

When we have a quick test for the virus and a quick test for anti-bodies available in mass we can restart the economy by 'filtering' through the population on a large scale. Movement restrictions would then only be needed for those who show virus-positive and anti-body negative results. All others could go back to work.

There would certainly still be outbreaks from people who escaped the 'filtering' process but with easy testing and care in place those clusters can be locally contained.

It may take another two month or so to get to that point. Until then there is little we can do but to stay apart as much as possible and to wear our masks.

Previous Moon of Alabama posts on the issue:

Posted by b on March 26, 2020 at 18:20 UTC | Permalink

« previous page | next page »

I should add Boyle's bio and the intro on his smoking-gun video:

Francis Boyle is a professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law. He drafted the U.S. domestic implementing legislation for the Biological Weapons Convention, known as the Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act of 1989, that was approved unanimously by both Houses of the U.S. Congress and signed into law by President George H.W. Bush.

In an exclusive interview given to Geopolitics and Empire, Dr. Boyle discusses the coronavirus outbreak in Wuhan, China and the Biosafety Level 4 laboratory (BSL-4) from which he believes the infectious disease escaped. He believes the virus is potentially lethal and an offensive biological warfare weapon or dual-use biowarfare weapons agent genetically modified with gain of function properties, which is why the Chinese government originally tried to cover it up and is now taking drastic measures to contain it. The Wuhan BSL-4 lab is also a specially designated World Health Organization (WHO) research lab and Dr. Boyle contends that the WHO knows full well what is occurring.

Posted by: krypton | Mar 27 2020 23:29 utc | 301

"And somebody here said that it could hit a hundred thousand as soon as some time next week?" --RJPJR @298

Yeah, that was me. I was actually predicting it for tomorrow. I intentionally padded my calculations to avoid sounding alarmist and overstating the issue, but I guess being alarmist might not be ill-advised at the moment.

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 27 2020 23:35 utc | 302

Peter @261

How disingenuous! A 39 yrs old with cancer has the immune system of a 90 yrs old. Then he can get pneumonia from fungi and bacteria... and how about posting Italy's total mortality instead of CV deaths? If the whole country tests positive, then every death is CV according to their guidelines. I would like you to note that this will a) generate huge number of posts on the formerly prestigious MoA and b) Italy will have effectively cured cancer! No more cancer deaths!

In reality, Italy has had an uptick of deaths this past week, about 140/day, after numerous weeks of almost normal mortality. Italy's excess mortality was twice as big as it is today, as recently as January 2017.

Posted by: anony | Mar 27 2020 23:40 utc | 303

For those who are following juliania's footsteps @260, someone here posted a link to for face mask design.

Posted by: Ian2 | Mar 27 2020 23:57 utc | 304

Mr. Gruff @ 299, I don't believe you are correct about james's post. You cherry picked phrase there. A person can think crowding is not a good healthy thing for a population and not be manifesting a capitalist ethic. He may simply enjoy the out of doors, even when that out of doors doesn't belong to him. And I think there are more people on earth that would if they could be happy that way - it has nothing to do with capitalism.

My thought is, (and confession here, I do have a large family myself) that we don't know how the demographics are going to play out. I probably wouldn't have had a large family today - I couldn't, not being rich. And I see that occurring in respect to my own children and their families. Then there are difficulties being brought about by global warming, which by the way isn't a result of overpopulation but of, as you say capitalist extremes. And to end my rant, I understand the rate of population in the world is diminishing rather than multiplying. A country like Russia, for instance wishes its population to increase.

Sorry if you are having a bad day. Please try to feel happier.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 27 2020 23:59 utc | 305

Phil @ 278

Not really sure what you are getting at.

Have I had a headache - yes
sore throat - yes
runny nose - yes
blocked nose - yes
cough - yes
body aches - yes
sweating - yes
high temperature - yes

Have I had some of these symptoms at the same time - yes some of them(the definition of a fever?).

Have I been debilitated enough so that I cannot get out of bed for an extended period of time - no
I am over it in a day or overnight with maybe a lingering cough for a day or two - but that is it.

I have had 'colds' - mild colds & maybe the odd worse cold. I have not had racking coughs, high temps or any of the above that last for days.
This is not influenza - ask someone who has had a bout of influenza - they are in bed for days, they can't move.

I am not interested in getting into any argument about 'well you had the flu but didn't know it' nonsense.

For the record I have been married for 33 years & all of the above applies to my wife.
I have had medical issues just not the flu.

Please feel free to ask any question that you wish & I will answer it best I can.

Posted by: ted01 | Mar 28 2020 0:01 utc | 306

Posted by: piggly | Mar 27 2020 17:19 utc | 235

"USA has put a $15 million bounty on Venezuela's Maduro. Charming."

What the rest of the world should now do is to post a $30 million bounty on Trump.

Posted by: AntiSpin | Mar 28 2020 0:17 utc | 307

"He may simply enjoy the out of doors, even when that out of doors doesn't belong to him..." --juliania @304

Unfortunately, in the real world you are wrong. Urbanization throughout the world is opening up more out of doors areas for people to enjoy. If james truly wanted more open public spaces then he would support urbanization, but that is not what he said and I am confident it is not what he meant.

The fact is that most people in the world, be it Asia, Africa, or Latin America, ARE moving into cities and depopulating the countryside. Sure, if they could have it many would choose to be independently wealthy and to have whole national parks for their own exclusive use, but most people in the world can see how unfair and unrealistic that is. It is only within the delusion rampant in the imperial heartlands that such a lifestyle appears "sustainable".

Please do not curse me with a wish for "happiness". That is all too easily achievable with modern pharmaceuticals or gruesome operations involving ice picks to the eye sockets. I seek balance and clarity. I suppose one could say that brings me "happiness", but I rather doubt it is the same as the "happiness" that you have in mind. Contentment and peace of mind might be better terms for it.

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 28 2020 0:27 utc | 308

Thank you, karlof1@ 286 for linking to Vijay Prishad's essay. Did it look somewhat unfinished to you? Or rather, it comes in two segments, with that marvellous photo somehow linking the two.

I had to laugh a bit at this:

"...Now, in the midst of the novel coronavirus, it seems impossible to imagine a return to the old world, the world that left us so helpless before the arrival of these deadly microscopic particles. Waves of anxiety prevail; death continues to stalk us. If there is a future, we say to each other, it cannot mimic the past..."

And yet, that photo - which is the old world, for us oldies at least - we did have still pandemics then, or had just survived one in l949 in New Zealand - the polio epidemic. But Vijay is young, for him what has happened since even before 2000 is the old world - the world of neoliberalism where privatization is the normal many young people have experienced, where families don't count, people don't count, only corporations and the gross national product and exceptionalism and empire count. And every policy of government, still, in the 'good old' US of A is skewed to corporate necessities, not life and the pursuit of happiness for the ordinary folk.

Vijay says "More than a debate about each separate policy, we need a debate about the very nature of how to understand the state and its institutions."

Then he ends by giving examples of the good and of the evil. Leaving, I think, the debate open. Thanks again, karlof1; lovely essay!

Posted by: juliania | Mar 28 2020 0:30 utc | 309

IronForge | Mar 27 2020 22:54 utc | 295 Re Vitamin C

I read about that in the paper on what treatments the Chinese were using. A lot of useless articles are claiming Vitamin C can't help "prevent" coronavirus. Well, it wasn't used to "prevent" the virus. It was used to treat some of the complications arising from having the virus.

People who claim it's a waste of time to take high doses of vitamin C forget that the amount of vitamin C used by the Chinese doctors was *massively* larger than what people normally take - 10-20 grams a day vs a gram or 2 that most people take (I take a gram a day). Plus it was intravenously which means the effective dose was even higher as compared with how much is absorbed into the blood stream when taken orally.

They also forget that people have "biochemical individuality" - meaning no one knows - without a full blood chemical assay - how much vitamin C any given person needs. So it's not a "waste of money" to take high doses of any vitamin, even if some unknown amount gets excreted without being used.

I take a large amount of a combination magnesium, calcium and zinc because I had a bad case of restless leg syndrome. Taking the combo made that go away. Zinc is also one of the vitamins recommended for intake by coronavirus patients.

I decided to up my intake of C from one gram a day to 3 grams, taking two on arising and another gram in the evening. As they say of chicken soup, "Maybe it won't help, but it wouldn't hurt." It's not like C is terribly expensive anyway.

Melatonin also apparently has some benefits. People recommend 1 or 2 mg or less a day for improved sleep. I've been taking 10 mg for some time as I sleep rather badly. Supposedly you become dependent on it (that is, your brain stops making it normally) if you take that much, but since I can't sleep well on what the brain makes normally, obviously it doesn't matter if I'm "dependent".

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Mar 28 2020 0:42 utc | 310

Posted by: vk | Mar 27 2020 19:48 utc | 274

The Chinese article you mention has only tested for a little bit more than 100 patients.

Do you know Standard Human Clinical Trials have as few as 15 patients over 6-12 weeks? You quibble over two multicenter clinical trials of of over 126 patients in two countries as being too small?

Hydroxycloroquine is not a cure.

No one in the medical community claimed it to be a cure. Understand, It is being combined with other agents.. In fact in my link in Open Thread; there is this Abstract - Journal of Forensic Medicine which warns of the problem in over-dosing and patient monitoring.

The Trial of Chloroquine in the Treatment of Corona Virus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) and Its Research Progress in Forensic Toxicology. NCBI LINK very technical.

[.]Since December 2019, COVID-19 (corona virus disease 2019) outbreaks caused by SARS-CoV-2 (severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2) has occurred in China and many countries around the world. Due to the lack of drugs against COVID-19, the disease spreads rapidly and the mortality rate is relatively high. Therefore, specific drugs against SARS-CoV-2 need to be quickly screened. The antimalarial drug Chloroquine phosphate which has already been approved is confirmed to have an anti-SARS-CoV-2 effect and has been included in diagnostic and therapeutic guidelines. However, awareness of the risk of chloroquine phosphate causing acute poisoning or even death should be strengthened. The dosage used according to current clinical recommended dosage and course of treatment are larger than that of previous treatment of malaria. Many provinces have required close clinical monitoring of adverse reactions. This paper reviews the pharmacological effects, poisoning;[.]

Your last link quotes doctors who are, deep down, discussing the sex of the angels. First things first: it's not the mortality rate of the COVID-19 that's the problem, but its infectiousness (R0); nobody ever said the COVID-19 would be another Ebola.

Very disappointing ,,,"the mortality rate of the COVID-19 that's not the problem but its infectiousness."
Tell that to those who have died and their loved ones in grief. And, the living in fear of dying.

Btw, COVID-19 and Ebola are both viruses.

Your comment that I am ...quoting "doctors who are, deep down, discussing the sex of angels" is in wanton dismissal of their credentials and reveals your mindset. Keep an open mind. Unanimity in science is rare. I suggest you revisit and re-read their observations and/or perhaps you should continue your very capable educative commentaries on financial matters which I continue to read.


Posted by: Likklemore | Mar 28 2020 0:46 utc | 311

@ 299 william gruff.. thanks for your comments.. do you ever get the impression you're wrong from time to time?? how can you tell? is someone's feedback on your impressions enough, or do you spend any time reflecting on any of it? i say this knowing you're a bright person in many respects and also i want you to know i generally always appreciate what you have to say... but i have to say my impression - and i hope i am wrong - is that your ideology gets in the way of your ability to see clearly... from what little i said, you've extrapolated an awful lot! it this isn't about me! it's about communicating with others about ideas we feel motivated to talk about... my main comment was about over population.. your main thrust seems to be about some type of communism or socialism as opposed to capitalism.. funny enough, i am a fan of more socialist or even communist type thinking too!

i don't have a couple of decent sized properties like you! and frankly, i am not interested in that either.. much of the land where i live is crown type land.. vancouver island has a lot of it.. i lived in a cabin on the side of the ocean for many years with no running water, electricity and quite a ways from another person... we all do what we do to get by on the planet.. so it is really funny you think i am taking up too much resources on the planet!! i have never owned a new car, or gone in for shopping, or having to have more then i need.. i say this having spent most of my adult life living in 2nd hand clothes and being a vegetarian too...but you think i am just a typical western capitalist schmuck or something, lol... all good william... good for a laugh! lets not go any further here, as you have too many preconceived ideas that get in your way of perception when it comes to this topic... that is my impression of you and again - i would be happy to be wrong, but your post went off the deep end for me and i now realize what john might have had to process in his earlier correspondence with you... happy trails and i look forward to your more objective posts here at moa!

@ juliania... thanks for that.. oh well! life goes on and we all have to find the best way to move forward with others as best we can... i always enjoy your presence here at moa juliania... i hope all is good with you in this covid crazed time..

Posted by: james | Mar 28 2020 0:53 utc | 312

VK @ 274

As stated by Likklemore @310
"...No one in the medical community claimed it to be a cure."

There are a number of scientist, who are lot smarter & a lot more qualified than you or I, that think there is some merit in continuing the research into chloroquine further. Maybe it will lead nowhere, I don't know & you don't know.

Maybe some of these links will be useful to you:-

Trial announced by the University of Queensland.
Trial announced by Walter and Eliza Hall Institute (an Australian medical research institute).

Included in WHO mega trial of four most promising coronavirus treatments.

Listing of some more Chloroquine trials:-

U.S. national Library of Medicine -

Posted by: ted01 | Mar 28 2020 1:21 utc | 313

Despite the fact that the Covid-19 virus was already killing large numbers of people, Carnival celebrations went ahead in several cities in Italy, Spain France and other countries in late February. Huge crowds mingled and held street parties in a region where the virus was known to be active. In the 3 countries mentioned, thousands are dying a month later. It will be interesting to see what happens in New Orleans, Brazil and other places that decided "the show must go on" in the face of the virus threat.

Posted by: Othello | Mar 28 2020 1:32 utc | 314

my question is specifically about evaporation of a virus-carrying droplet in a mask. Posted by: Victor | Mar 27 2020 17:31 utc | 242

I doubt whether there is any known answer to whether a virus can be inhaled after the droplet on the mask has evaporated. My answer was that it would depend on the environment. A specific experiment would have to be conducted. Or if the coronavirus is of the same size as earlier viruses, there may be studies already done.

As far as I can tell, it depends on the *filter* in the mask. It is the *filter* that determines what size virus can pass, just as the filter in a water filter determines what size virus can pass. So if your mask has the proper size filter layer, you should be fine. Which is why WHO and OSHA don't recommend anything less than an N95, and not surgical masks or dust masks which do not have filters.

I found this study from back in 2012 on regular flu. Read the whole article, there is a lot of nuances involved. The last couple paragraphs specifically address filtering capability.
Lab study supports use of N95 respirators for flu protection

I also found this study from 2020:
Does That Face Mask Really Protect You? Larry E. Bowen Southern Research Institute, Birmingham, Alabama

A similar test to the Chinese one, the Bowen study concluded: "The protective efficiencies were 33.3%, 11.3%, and 6.1% for the surgical, bandana, and dust masks, respectively. The N95 mask protective efficiency was 89.6%. In conclusion, the surgical mask protected the best of the three face masks tested. However, it is important to note that all three masks offer very little protection when compared to the N95, and wearing these face masks may produce a false sense of protection."

I also found this study (PDF may be downloaded from the page):
Testing the Efficacy of Homemade Masks: Would They Protect in an Influenza Pandemic?

Their conclusions:

The median-fit factor of the homemade masks was one-half that of the surgical masks. Both masks significantly reduced the number of microorganisms expelled by volunteers, although the surgical mask was 3 times more effective in blocking transmission than the homemade mask. Conclusion: Our findings suggest that a homemade mask should only be considered as a last resort to prevent droplet transmission from infected individuals, but it would be better than no protection.

This study indicates that there is a difference between "droplets" and "droplet nuclei" which affects how far droplets or nuclei can spread. I'm not sure what "droplet nuclei" actually are.

Natural Ventilation for Infection Control in Health-Care Settings.

This article is also interesting on how droplets vs aerosols can spread:
COMMENTARY: COVID-19 transmission messages should hinge on science

This article gives better definitions of things - droplets vs droplet nuclei - and size estimates. Note that indoors transmissions of virus in normal homes is not *not* well studied!
Viral infections acquired indoors through airborne, droplet or contact transmission

This study discusses environmental factors - specifically, temperature and humidity (relative vs absolute) on virus stability:
Mechanistic insights into the effect of humidity on airborne influenza virus survival, transmission and incidence

The bottom line of all this: no one knows for sure. So the best advice remains: wear a properly-fitted N95 or higher-rated respirator, preferably with a full-face shield - or take your chances with something else.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Mar 28 2020 1:49 utc | 315

Ugh, typos...

"not *not*" s/b simply "*not"...

And I believe that 2020 study might be 2010, can't remember..

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Mar 28 2020 1:51 utc | 316

Paul Craig Roberts -- Coronavirus Profiteers Are Worse Than War Profiteers -- 3/27/20

"France is being intentionally destroyed. Are pharmaceutical companies mass murderers?

Is the same thing happening in the United States?"

Posted by: blues | Mar 28 2020 1:58 utc | 317

Good Covid-19 summary by Phil Giraldi:

Whither Coronavirus? When Will It End and What Will Happen Along the Way


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 28 2020 2:14 utc | 318

My view is this likely is a bioweapon, likely a CIA special. Curious how Iran and their vulnerable elder leadership got hit so soon & so hard. Why not Iraq next door?? Why not similar Pakistan?? I bet they were gnashing their teeth wanting to infect Venezuala but had to hold back because it would be just toooo obvious. Watch:

Is Coronavirus A Bioweapon? Dr Paul Cottrell

For instance this commentator concludes:

"....1 in 24339 chance that the current Covid-19 virus strain could have arisen from natural mutations, as opposed to being a codon-and-secondary-structure-optimized gene construct that can have only one purpose: for use as a bioweapon of mass destruction...".

See comment on "Is Coronavirus a Bioweapon? Dr Paul Cottrell" Youtube video:

".....Daoyu Zhang

Keep in mind that there is a large stretch of 440 amino acids within the non-host-determining non-conserved S2 proportion of the SARS-COV-2’s S protein that are identical with the other highly suspicious virus, RaTG13, despite the presence of a whopping 79 nucleotide differences within the part of RNA that codes for the same protein. An abnormally high level of silent mutations that have only 1 in 5346 chance to have been a product of natural evolution amongst all possible sequences that are equally capable of causing the Covid-19 outbreak.

BLAST tool:

The following are the BLAST search results of a part of the Wuhan Spike Glycoprotein sequence in comparison to the closest related natural coronavirus to date.

This is the result of an amino acid BLAST comparision between the two different glycoprotein sequences.

QHD43416.1, 681 to 1120.

Query: surface glycoprotein [Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2] Query ID: QHD43416.1 Length: 440

>spike glycoprotein [Bat coronavirus RaTG13]

Sequence ID: QHR63300.2 Length: 1269

Range 1: 681 to 1120

Score:901 bits(2329), Expect:0.0,

Method:Compositional matrix adjust.,

Identities:440/440(100%), Positives:440/440(100%), Gaps:0/440(0%)

Notice that there were ZERO amino acid difference between these two protein sequences. that is, these two sequences were identical.

A BLAST search on the corresponding nucleotides gives this result.

Query: Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 isolate Wuhan-Hu-1, complete genome Query ID: MN908947.3 Length: 1560

>Bat coronavirus RaTG13, complete genome

Sequence ID: MN996532.1 Length: 29855

Range 1: 23357 to 24904

Score:2366 bits(1281), Expect:0.0,

Identities:1469/1560(94%), Gaps:12/1560(0%), Strand: Plus/Plus

In comparision, this is the result of the same Wuhan coronavirus Spike glycoprotein sequence when compared to a natural bat coronavirus.

Query: surface glycoprotein [Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2] Query ID: QHD43416.1 Length: 440

>spike glycoprotein [Bat SARS coronavirus HKU3-8]

Sequence ID: ADE34766.1 Length: 1242

Range 1: 654 to 1093

Score:855 bits(2209), Expect:0.0,

Method:Compositional matrix adjust.,

Identities:406/440(92%), Positives:430/440(97%), Gaps:0/440(0%)

Noticed that there were 34 amino acid that are different between Covid-19 and HKU3-8 within this domain, differences of which represent the natual number of amino acids that are variable across different Coronavirus strains within this domain, variations that are known to not affect the function of the resulting protein. As this domain, which is located after the end of the RBD domain of the coronavirus S protein and is known to be cleaved off after the maturation of the individual virions, it plays no critical role in selecting the host for the virus, and are generally considered to be a domain that is not well-conserved or evolutionarily pressured across different strains of bat-borne Coronaviruses.

There is only 0.2450783^(79*(34/(1124-685+1)))=0.00018706121, or 1 in 5346 chance that these 79 nucleotide mutations not changing a single amino acid within the 685-1124 sequence of the Covid-19 Spike protein when compared to RaTG13, the closese related natural coronavirus to date. 1 in 24339 if another related bat coronavirus, HKU 3.4 was considered, possessing 42 amino acid mutations within this region. That is, there is only at best 1 in 5346, at worst 1 in 24339 chance that the current Covid-19 virus strain could have arisen from natural mutations, as opposed to being a codon-and-secondary-structure-optimized gene construct that can have only one purpose: for use as a bioweapon of mass destruction. ....."

Posted by: George Mann | Mar 28 2020 2:29 utc | 319

anony | Mar 27 2020 23:40 utc | 302
What the fuck is wrong with people like you. What fucking world do you live in. If a person develops
pneumonia and dies from it then that is not a death due to cancer.
A person can be weakened by any number of things including strait out fatigue, but if you get pneumonia
and and you lungs cannot absorb oxygen then you die from pneumonia not any of the other things that simply weaken you.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 28 2020 2:34 utc | 320

Today's CCD/DSU numbers.
Quick recap: Given nCOV epidemiological description, I have created a model which calculates expected deaths from "confirmed" case numbers as well as expected nCOV cases backwards from mortality totals.
The purpose of this exercise is to get an idea of just how many nCOV cases might actually be out there, since "confirmed" cases are more a reflection of the amount (or lack of) testing while actual deaths are a fairly firm statistic but is backward looking.
In the case of South Korea - which is doing a lot of testing, the CCD and DSU columns are almost identical. In contrast, Italy's DSU column is dramatically different than the number of "confirmed" cases; for Italy, the DSU/CCD ratio is nearly 20 (i.e. there could be 20 times more actual nCOV infected people than the confirmed numbers).
The idea is that the CCD and DSU numbers can give a range of possible values for what is really happening in different countries as well as to put published data in context.
I have also added the testing numbers from Wikipedia's page for reference.
CCD DSU for March 27, 2020
Note these aren't the numbers at this instant - they reflect what was published as of 2 pm PST.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 28 2020 2:49 utc | 321

What is the step from confirmed to actual based on.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 28 2020 3:08 utc | 322

Briefly, for I have held forth on this before: I am convinced from my research and experience that the virus came out of Fort Detrick. This does not mean that it was the finished product, merely that in the form in which it began to spread among humans, it had been artificially created.

There are interesting -- and serious -- arguments in favor of it having been let loose in Wuhan deliberately, but they all fail to take into account one essential point that disqualifies such an idea: there is no antidote. No such agent would EVER have been let loose without an antidote having been devised since the spread of the agent could not be controlled and could easily produce a boomerang effect, hitting the perpetrators.

The most reasonable scenario is that it infected one or several of the people working at Fort Detrick and the infected person(s) took it to Wuhan when going there for the World Military Games.

Whether it was the finished product or something still in the works, as an altered virus it would still have the capacity to mutate in being passed along among its host bodies. Thus, it would have been very difficult for its creators (impossible, unless they were so drunk on their power of creation that they felt infallible) to be able to propose a guaranteed antidote, no matter what their research.

As things come apart in the Homeland of the free and the brave, the utter disarray and denial, from the outset, bespeak an accident for which nobody was prepared and for which nobody was willing to take responsibility by immediately taking the steps necessary to contain it as soon as possible.

As I write this, the Johns Hopkins tracking site is announcing 104,463 confirmed cases in the United States. The deaths will be another matter, discussed and argued over, but one must bear in mind that this current figure has been arrived at with barely minimal testing.

Posted by: RJPJR | Mar 28 2020 3:45 utc | 323

RJPJR @ 322:

You might be interested in watching US investigative journo George Webb's Youtube videos in which he claims that Dutch-American soldier Maatje Benassi, who competed as a cyclist with the US team at the 2019 World Military Games in Wuhan last October, may have been Patient X.

Posted by: Jen | Mar 28 2020 4:11 utc | 324


But how do you know there is no antidote. A number of known drugs are proving effective against the virus especially if used early.
Chloroquine was tested in vitro against SARS-CoV several years ago. May well have been many other drugs tested.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 28 2020 4:20 utc | 325

More than a couple of years ago. 2005.

"Chloroquine is a potent inhibitor of SARS coronavirus infection and spread"

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 28 2020 4:24 utc | 326

This is the explanation in The Globe and Mail with regard to the "construcive" little arguments (as some astute MoA commentators put it) where police cars were overturned and the riot police attacked in China yesterday:

Violent clashes erupted on a bridge between China’s virus-stricken Hubei province and neighbouring Jiangxi province, days after authorities relaxed an epidemic lockdown.

Police vehicles were overturned and police scuffled with each other amid large crowds of shouting people, according to a series of videos posted to Chinese social media. The confrontation came after authorities in Jiangxi blocked entry to people from Hubei, local media reported.

Hubei this week lifted its lockdown of areas of the province outside Wuhan.

But deep distrust has taken root across China toward people from Hubei, fuelled by fear of COVID-19, which spread widely in the province, as well as skepticism of official reassurances that the epidemic has been successfully suppressed. People from Hubei have been refused entry to hotels and their homes, even if they were not in Hubei during the past two months. On social media, people have reported being barred from entering Beijing merely because their hometown is in Hubei.

Now, the release of lockdown measures means large numbers of people from Hubei are attempting to move elsewhere in China, threatening new hostilities.

On Friday, videos of the bridge confrontation showed a line of uniformed officers behind riot shields positioned across the bridge, blocking movement from Hubei province across the Yangtze River into Jiujiang, a city in Jiangxi. A large crowd marched toward the blockade chanting “Let’s go, Hubei!” In another video, Ma Yangzhou, the secretary of the party committee in Huangmei County on the Hubei side, urges people to disperse. “It’s dangerous for you to gather like this on the bridge,” he said, citing both the block to transportation and “the risk of virus infection.”

The clashes took place between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m., a worker at a toll booth on the bridge told the Globe and Mail in an interview Friday evening. “It was on the middle of the bridge somewhere that the block was put in place,“ said Ms. Huang, the worker. The Globe is not identifying her by her full name because she is not authorized to speak to foreign media. On Friday evening, digital mapping apps showed the bridge closed from both sides, citing “construction.”

In a brief commentary published on its Twitter-like Weibo account, the state-owned People’s Daily called the bridge conflict “regrettable.”

“The people of Hubei have made great efforts and significant contributions to winning the battle against the epidemic,” the commentary said. “People from all sectors of society have also been calling for the acceptance of Hubei’s migrant workers. However, it’s undeniable that some individuals of some regions have intentionally or unintentionally discriminated against Hubei people, set up obstacles for them to return to work” and discriminated against them.

According to official government policy, those who live outside Wuhan and are considered healthy have been allowed to resume travels since Wednesday. Authorities reopened railways and long-distance bus service, and pledged to completely remove all highway roadblocks by Friday. The desire to leave Hubei is substantial: Qichun County in the city of Huanggang counts one million residents, but has said 216,000 need to leave for work.

Hubei province has reported only a single new case in the past week. The province counts nearly 68,000 confirmed cases and says 3,174 people have died from COVID-19 since the outbreak began late last year.

On Friday, authorities downgraded the virus risk classification of Wuhan from “high risk” to “medium risk.” The tight lockdown measures in the city are scheduled to ease on April 8.

But even as Chinese authorities push to resume normal life, skepticism is growing about the accuracy of the virus numbers in the region. Health authorities have acknowledged that their tally of confirmed cases does not include people who have the virus but have not shown symptoms. Those asymptomatic cases are believed to number in the tens of thousands.

New questions have also emerged about the accuracy of the official death toll. Earlier this week, authorities began to distribute to family members the ashes of their cremated loved ones. Photos taken by people at funeral homes showed long lines and large numbers of remains. Photos published by Caixin Media from one of Wuhan’s eight funeral homes showed well in excess of 1,000 boxes containing remains.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Mar 28 2020 5:00 utc | 327

There are interesting -- and serious -- arguments in favor of it having been let loose in Wuhan deliberately, but they all fail to take into account one essential point that disqualifies such an idea: there is no antidote. No such agent would EVER have been let loose without an antidote having been devised since the spread of the agent could not be controlled and could easily produce a boomerang effect, hitting the perpetrators.

Posted by: RJPJR | Mar 28 2020 3:45 utc | 322

I agree with the conclusion, but based on different premises. RJPJR claims that bioweapon scenario requires an impossible combination of biotechnological sophistication with utter stupidity. However, historical record shows that the powers that rule a certain country between Rio Grande and St. Lawrence River excel at combining technological sophistication, say, stealth technology for bombers, with utter stupidity. There are also wise people who observe that people reach pinnacles of stupidity if they are not loosing personally. For example, if you do a very crappy target selections to kill some Chinese diplomatic personnel and Canadian allies together with hordes of hapless Serbs and Afghans, it is OK with sufficient control over the media. Actually, you make a good living as a national hero, great humanitarian etc.

But how in high heaven could COVID-19 benefit anyone? Hard to tell, but it is easy to imagine epidemiological modeling that would be just a wee bit off in very optimistic projections of Chinese suffering economic collapse, while USA with its superior medicine and organizational getting through with hardly a hickup. Everybody would shut down borders, freight and air traffic with China for 6-9 months with the epidemic raging there, just enough time for the West, or at least USA, to put together a proper response.


My case against bioweapon: how the hell you develop it? The state of biosciences does not allow to do it in silico, i.e. with computer simulations alone. So you need to test. Just to write a science paper it is enough to observe an effect in vitro, i.e. using cell cultures, or using animal models, probably mice or rats (they breed well, easy to adjust with genetic engineering). But viruses act differently in different species, in different types of human cell types, and even in different humans if you have the ability to use them instead of rodents.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Mar 28 2020 5:01 utc | 328

"China reports no local virus transmissions as foreigners barred.
China on Saturday reported no locally transmitted coronavirus infections for the
previous day and a small reduction in new cases involving travellers from overseas,
as new restrictions on the entry of foreigners kicked in." Rueters.

That sort of news has been coming out of China for awhile.
South Korea exceptionally slow rise in numbers.
Iceland, wide scale testing after tracing and testing only turned up an extra 10%
These three countries give some ball park figures.
If actual was double confirmed, China and Korea would not have stopped the spread as they have done.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 28 2020 5:12 utc | 329

RJPJR @322:

... there is no antidote. No such agent would EVER have been let loose without an antidote having been devised ...

Yes, but there are different strains. After having caught a strain that produces a mild illness, one might be inoculated against more dangerous strains. So the attacker would simply release a mild strain in his/her country (and allied countries), and release a more deadly strain in the target country(s).


Piotr Berman @327: ... how the hell you develop it? ... viruses act differently in different species, in different types of human cell types, and even in different humans ...

I think that any well-funded group with a desire to use a bio-weapon would find a solution to the testing problem.

<> <> <> <> <>

I'm not sure that we'll ever know for sure if Covid-19 was designed as a weapon. I doubt anyone involved would talk about such a subject.

That's why I've concentrated on how the Empire has played games with the pandemic. The US/West slow response and initial "don't panic" messaging ensured that there WOULD BE a panic - which led to a 'national emergency' and stealth bailouts for an over-extended Wall Street and bankrupt Boeing. And, of course, China is blamed.

I find it very strange that no public health professional resigned in protest at the lax preparation before the CRISIS! And of course, non have been fired by Trump because they all went along(!) with the Trump/Deep State playbook.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 28 2020 5:38 utc | 330

US has its onshore and offshore gulag system for testing.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 28 2020 5:51 utc | 331

This whole thing seems to be a hoax on the scale of 9/11.

The mortality statistics for many countries in Europe simply do not show such a big deal happening in either Italy or Spain. Basically, it is either sick or very sick people dying and because the test is positive the virus gets the blame. You can see for yourselves. You will not find these charts in the mainstream media. I am beginning to wonder if moonofalabama is in on it as well :-(

This data is updated weekly - every Thursday (65+) (15-64)

There is a tiny bump for those over 65 in Italy - smaller than a bump that happened with no publicity 3 years ago.

There are no bumps at all for the age group 15-64 in either country. There was no bump for those over 65 in Spain.

If you don't like the data, please don't blame me. You have been suckered by the MSM.

Posted by: Alfred (Cairns) | Mar 28 2020 7:14 utc | 332

Here is something from Conspiracy Central in the US, Stanford University.

Stanford Health Policy's Eran Bendavid and Jay Bhattacharya write in this Wall Street Journal editorial that current estimates about the COVID-19 fatality rate may be too high by orders of magnitude.

"If it’s true that the novel coronavirus would kill millions without shelter-in-place orders and quarantines, then the extraordinary measures being carried out in cities and states around the country are surely justified. But there’s little evidence to confirm that premise and projections of the death toll could plausibly be orders of magnitude too high.

"Fear of Covid-19 is based on its high estimated case fatality rate — 2% to 4% of people with confirmed Covid-19 have died, according to the World Health Organization and others. So if 100 million Americans ultimately get the disease, 2 million to 4 million could die. We believe that estimate is deeply flawed. The true fatality rate is the portion of those infected who die, not the deaths from identified positive cases."

"The latter rate is misleading because of selection bias in testing. The degree of bias is uncertainbecause available data are limited. But it could make the difference between an epidemic that kills 20,000 and one that kills 2 million. If the number of actual infections is much larger than the number of cases—orders of magnitude larger—then the true fatality rate is much lower as well. That’s not only plausible but likely based on what we know so far."

COVID-19 fatality rate may be too high by orders of magnitude

The opinion piece is behind a WSJ paywall. However another site gives us some details of what was argued by the professors.

The professors cited data from Iceland, China, the United States, and Italy, which is arguably the hardest-hit region when it comes to the coronavirus.

“On March 6, all 3,300 people of Vò were tested, and 90 were positive, a prevalence of 2.7%,” the professors said. “Applying that prevalence to the whole province (population 955,000), which had 198 reported cases, suggests there were actually 26,000 infections at that time. That’s more than 130-fold the number of actual reported cases. Since Italy’s case fatality rate of 8% is estimated using the confirmed cases, the real fatality rate could in fact be closer to 0.06%.”

The professors argued that current epidemiological models aren’t adequate for two key reasons.

“First, the test used to identify cases doesn’t catch people who were infected and recovered. Second, testing rates were woefully low for a long time and typically reserved for the severely ill. Together, these facts imply that the confirmed cases are likely orders of magnitude less than the true number of infections,” it reads.

Ultimately, while stressing the seriousness of the virus that has infected almost half a million people, the professors aren’t convinced a universal quarantine is the most logical course of action.

The push-back is growing but it's too late as the damage has already been done. No amount of jawboning will change that.

You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 28 2020 7:24 utc | 333

Something not reported by the Anglo American "Free Press" is the wave of wildcat strikes in sectors like the automobile industry throughout North America that forced major car companies to shut down production for at least a couple of weeks to pacify autoworkers.

This Free Press has tried to censor... I mean... forget to report on these wildcat strikes or disingenuously ascribe the shutdown in car factories either to the initiative of the (corporate) United Auto Workers union or even to the health concerns of these major car companies.

Similar rebellions have percolated in other industries as well....

Media blackout of wildcat strikes in US auto industry

Auto plants shut down throughout North America in response to wave of wildcats over coronavirus

Strikes, protests spread as US workers demand protection from COVID-19

Canadian workers launch work-safety job actions amid rapid spread of coronavirus

Posted by: ak74 | Mar 28 2020 7:46 utc | 334

Posted by: JoeG | Mar 27 2020 19:48 utc | 276
" Why are you sad b?? You clearly hate America."

A person in love can be saddened when his beloved take huuuuuuge mis-steps, no?

Posted by: kiwiklown | Mar 28 2020 8:43 utc | 335

" it is either sick or very sick people dying and because the test is positive the virus gets the blame."

Bullshit. The question is whether those people who had pre-existing conditions would still be alive if 1) they never caught the virus, and 2) they would have died if they caught the *normal* flue which does *not* have the same degree of impact on the lungs and the reaction of the immune system as the virus.

In short, this is more bullshit from *people who have to have an opinion" with *zero actual evidence* to back up their claims.

Once again for the retarded: China *did not make this shit up*.

Also, no one has claimed *with certainty* that the death rate is 2-4%. What is claimed is that *probably* *3 percent* *might* die but that the actual rate may vary based on a number of factors, one of which is how well the medical system of the country can *handle* the influx of *serious* cases.

In short, more fucking hand-waving by people who in the end, are simply trying to *not be inconvenienced* by the shelter in place policy or who are concerned that their fucking *stock holdings* might be impacted by the economic effects of a lockdown.

Fuck them. I get this virus, I could *die.* Get in the way of the prevention or treatment of that and I will be motivated to shoot people in the face, so one gets to feel what dying means.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Mar 28 2020 8:49 utc | 336

As for the biowarfare speculators, either produce something other than circumstantial evidence or speculation from scientists who are doing "genetic analysis" which is *also* ninety-nine percent speculation - or shut the fuck up.

The virus is here. No one cares if it was a biowarfare agent absent any evidence or any fucking way to hold whoever is responsible accountable.

This is why I'm tired of reading this shit. It's not helpful in the slightest, except for morons who have nothing better to do with their lives.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Mar 28 2020 8:54 utc | 337

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 27 2020 20:48 utc | 288
" Of course, the fact that the protests produce tangible results encourages more protests, which is why China has so many of them compared with western countries."

Sounds like democracy in action in China to me.

Unlike Macron shooting rubber bullets and flashbangs into his deplorables, who have been protesting every week for more than a year now; or Israel doing likewise into Palestinians asking for the right to pursue life and happiness.

But then China is not a "normal nation" because, just like Iran, she does not practise "western values" as prescribed by the Exceptionally Indispensable City On The Hill.

Posted by: kiwiklown | Mar 28 2020 8:56 utc | 338

Some pathetic Circus Show in the UK caught on video.

Santa's Little Helpers Alerting People

Any little kid seeing these "clowns" is traumatized for life. Even run of the mill hospital staff don't dress like this.

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 28 2020 9:13 utc | 339

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 27 2020 23:28 utc | 299
"It is all the same concept. It is an adversarial societal relationship rather than a cooperative one. It is "Get off MY lawn!" as the fundamental structure of societal relationships.... I have a couple decent sized properties, but I would happily trade them all for ultra dense apartment life if that meant most of the countryside was publicly owned national / state / provincial / municipal park lands."

What if america is organised just as the native indians did?
What if Europeans assimilated into the native indian ways?
Would not all land be in the commonwealth, as in common wealth?

But a self-centred, adversarial, grasping culture killed the golden goose.

What if the most intelligent, creative, hardworking persons served the tribe, not himself?
What if he gets rewarded societally (esteem, recognition, honouring, self-actualisation)?
and not by grasping hard assets for exclusive possession?

Can a bill gates eat all his billions even if he lived a thousand years?

And where have all the bisons gone?

Posted by: kiwiklown | Mar 28 2020 9:21 utc | 340

I find it strange that according to some we are not supposed to be asking where the virus came from. Tens of thousands are dying and we are not to ask if somebody did it intentionally? Right. If you listen to this interview with Professor Francis Boyle in 2014, it is almost eerie how similar the Ebola case was with what we are dealing with here. And Boyle has absolutely no doubt that Ebola came from one of the American biowarfare labs in Africa and the CDC played a part. He explains the point of dual-use crap: you say you need a vaccine, so you need to develop the disease, you get the vaccine and then, guess what, release the virus. Yes, this is circumstantial but what do you expect? It is called circumstantial evidence because it is evidence.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Mar 28 2020 9:37 utc | 341

Rania Khalek gives the USA a well deserved flogging here.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 28 2020 10:47 utc | 342

Jonathan W @340

I agree. It's not wrong to ask. That debate shines a light on things that the public isn't very aware of: continued development and stockpiling of bio- and chemical-warfare agents.

But it's unlikely that any 'smoking gun' will be found. Even if we agree that the virus is probably developed in a lab, it's unlikely that the lab or country that developed is ultimately identified with certainty. WE can draw logical inferences from circumstantial evidence - like the country that released it possibly having released a milder version for it's own people and allies (as I mentioned @329), but until there is a 'smoking gun' or eyewitness most people just won't care.

The public is more likely to be energized by the neoliberal-inspired failures of the public health system and the failure and accountability of Western public health officials who are nothing more than functionaries for Big Pharma and the politicians bought and paid for by Big Pharma.

<> <> <> <> <>

My latest post describes Covid-19 as the latest of a series of crises that were initiated by or gamed by the Empire: Empire Games: CRISIS! as the New Bloodsport.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 28 2020 12:30 utc | 343

#335 Richard Hack

Wow,you are a true american I suppose.

Without stating that the outbreak was intentional,one should still take in account that patient zero in Wuhan was this american/dutch army soldier Maatje Benassi,that served as an armed driver to high placed political personnel,who was part of the 339 person american military contingent to the Wuhan Military World Games in september 2019.Those sports men and sportswomen trained themselves quite close to Fort Detrick,and were located in a hotel 300 meters from the Wuhan wet market,where later 42 personnel were tested positive.If it is all true,then it came from the USA,but not sure if it was intentional.It was also claimed that Benassi's brother Benny Benassi (not a very dutch family name,but could be israelite)was patient zero in Great Britain as well as the rapping performer of some song in the Netherlands.(Interestingly David Guetta,well known techno-musician,is the younger brother of Bernard Guetta,khazar jew ,and french media pundit for decades spewing Russia-hatred and more Europe as his one and only contribution on state radio to inform listeners to geopolitics).

If you consider that all western countries have diminished their hospital and health service capacities over the years,this bad preparation is like the lock that needs the key of a big pandemia to open new world order possibilities.What do the Counsels on foreign relation and other oligarch Atlantic council,say about it all?
Anyways,French health minister putting chloroquine on a list of toxic medicines on januari 13th 2020,is just a proof of them big pharma guys wanting to make a lot of profit and still keeping on in hollowing out our socially built health systems.She worked forteen years for them,and her husband (Levy) is who decides admission of medicine to be used.(But media did not see conflict of interests).

Posted by: willie | Mar 28 2020 12:33 utc | 344

@Peter AU1 #200
You really should look at some data before making comments like that.
As of this moment, Iceland has conducted 13,613 tests vs. a population of 340K people.
That's the highest rate of testing in the world: 4% of the population - but it still is a long way from widespread testing.
If Iceland is doing China/South Korea style tracking, that 4% may be plenty but the number itself is meaningless with regards to knowing how many Icelanders are actually infected with nCOV - particularly since it is clear that different tests have different success rates.
The most common PCR tests are showing only 71% accuracy...

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 28 2020 12:47 utc | 345

This is why I'm tired of reading this shit. It's not helpful in the slightest, except for morons who have nothing better to do with their lives.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Mar 28 2020 8:54 utc | 336

Well kindly fuck off then.

The irony of an idiot who broke the page width, because he's so too retarded or too incompetent to properly format a link, calling other people morons is a joy to behold, but one I'd happily forego just to be spared your mindless drivel

Posted by: Realist | Mar 28 2020 12:55 utc | 346

@Peter AU1 #321
Confirmed is assumed to be largely symptomatic. Actual is 2x confirmed representing the 50% of nCOV who are asymptomatic.
Yes, widespread testing would include more asymptomatic in the confirmed number, but nobody in the world has tested more than 2% of the population, so this seems a safe assumption. But to compensate, I also include actual numbers of testing vs. the CCD/DSU numbers to show impact.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 28 2020 12:58 utc | 347

Idiotic irrational post. Trump had nothing to do with the USA having the most cases. The USA is number 6 on the per capita case rate. Math is hard for the MOA.

Trump cut flights from China and was called a racist. WTF should he have done differently?

Posted by: Mike | Mar 28 2020 13:02 utc | 348

French hydroxychloroquine study highly flawed
Overview on criticisms of Didier Raoult study

The clinical trial, which involved just 42 patients who tested positive for COVID-19, was, it is argued, not particularly well designed, with too many variables, potentially throwing the results and its conclusions in doubt. The patients were of different ages, were affected by the illness to different degrees, and treated at different hospitals in France in three groups. Six of the test subjects, one of which died, did not even complete the experiment.

The journal-published study began some time in “early March” and ended on March 16. Out of the 42 patients, six were asymptomatic, 22 had upper respiratory tract infection symptoms, and eight had lower respiratory tract infection symptoms. The patients were as young as ten and as old as 85.

Initially, 26 patients were administered daily doses of 600 milligrams of hydroxychloroquine; six took 600 milligrams of hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin every day; and the rest acted as a control group and were not fed the cocktail of drugs at all.

All the patients were tested for COVID-19 virus levels with nasal swabs during the 14-day study. The trials were cut short for the aforementioned six who were given hydroxychloroquine only. Three of the six had worsened enough that they required intensive care, one died, one got too sick from the drug, and the other decided to leave hospital. In the end, the hydroxychloroquine group dwindled to just 20 patients instead of the initial 26.

This is a shit study: the subjects were highly variable in age and state of nCOV disease progression. The "good" results: hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin, there were only 6 patients vs. 20 with hydroxychloroquine and 16 control. The people were also scattered across 3 different hospitals in 3 different regions.

The actual data can be seen here: Pubpeer source
You'll note that the HCH+AZT group - none were in the nCOV high risk age groups: all were 60 or under with one being 20.
All HCH+AZT were within the 1st week of nCOV infection.
The dosing between HCH only and HCH+AZT groups was all over the place: from 0.194 to 1.07 micrograms/ml.
The 3-80+ year olds were all in the HCH group, the whole group from which 6 didn't finish the study (3 got so bad they went into intensive care, 1 died, 1 got too sick from the drugs, 1 just left).
All of the HCH group were URTI - upper respiratory tract, i.e. very early while 4 of the HCH+AZT were LRTI (Lower respiratory tract) and 2 control were LRTI - a very odd combination.
The study overall has a huge number of bad data points: ND (no data), POS (which means nothing), NEG (which presumably was made 0) - but the patients who actually had numbers, they were flat to up.
A careful peer review was clearly not performed; an editor of the publishing journal was a co-author and the paper was published 3 days after submission.
This study is no good for anything, is clearly a PR stunt and very possibly cherry picked.
The data that does exist does not show promise for Hydroxychloroquine.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 28 2020 13:22 utc | 349

james @311: "do you ever get the impression you're wrong from time to time?? "

I always start with that assumption... effort to subvert the Dunning-Kruger effect and all of that.

"...your ideology gets in the way of your ability to see clearly"

What is an "ideology" other than a worldview that one has put in effort to define? Everyone has a worldview, but to state that one doesn't have an ideology is to state that one hasn't defined it; one doesn't know what one's own worldview is.

Granted, to impose someone else's ideology on oneself could result in impaired understanding, but anyone who has not defined their own is unable to tell whether or not they have already done that. The risk of this happening is extreme for anyone who watches TV, as all capitalist mass media is constructed around a basic set of assumptions about how the world works that is compatible with capitalism itself: a capitalist worldview; a capitalist ideology. Anyone who has not carefully defined (and assiduously monitors) their own ideology but also consumes capitalist mass media has with near 100% certainty internalized capitalist ideology. Anyone who can watch FOX or CNN or the Beeb or read anything in the Washington Bezos Post without teeth-grinding cognitive dissonance has internalized capitalist ideology without even knowing it.

[Aside: Re: global toilet paper crisis. I was trying to explain a solution to some associates IRL who were concerned about TP shortages; basically the water solution that our host proposed earlier. Initial response: "Water won't rinse all the poop off!" to which I attempted to explain that they could keep a bar of soap nearby, lather up a hand, reach down and lather up the unmentionables, and then let the bidet do the rinse. The response was shock: "You touch your butt hole?!?! That's so gay! And what about diseases!?"

Adults for whom parts of their own bodies are off-limits and untouchable, even for purposes of maintaining hygiene? I mention it because people who are unwilling/incapable of defining their own ideologies are really not so different.]

"from what little i said, you've extrapolated an awful lot!"

Well, yes. It doesn't take someone quoting Mein Kampf in its entirety to get a good idea of where they are coming from. Anyone who brings up overpopulation as a problem the world faces but fails to include themselves at the center of that problem is voicing a despicable ideology; a despicable ideology that the individual may be unaware of but is present all the same.

You of course know how China has its One Child Policy, right? This was a policy decided upon by committees originally composed primarily of Chinese people of the Han ethnicity. They were recognizing a problem with overpopulation, but rather than imposing this discipline on other ethnicities within China they put themselves at the center of the problem and made the One Child Policy applicable to only the Han Chinese. This despite the fact that all of the ethnic minorities in China had and continue to have a higher population growth rate than the Han Chinese.

What the Chinese did was noble. They put themselves at the center of the problem. That's not what you did. You did the opposite, which also happens to be the opposite of noble. You pointed outside of yourself for the source of the overpopulation problem. You suggested that others than yourself sacrifice to solve that problem. So long as you are consuming oxygen on this planet and you believe that there is a problem with overpopulation, then there is one noble action you can take to address that problem. If you are unwilling to take that responsibility, then either drop the "overpopulation-is-a-problem" concept and look towards addressing other issues like water scarcity and energy security or get in touch with your real ideology. Reading Mein Kampf might help with that.

"i lived in a cabin on the side of the ocean for many years"

Ah, what an idyllic lifestyle! Hundreds of millions of people in the world would jump at a chance for that. I've had such fortunate life experiences as well, having lived in a school bus, on an ancient leaky sailboat, and in an old sugar shack off an abandoned road deep in the mountains of the Northeast. Winter was tough in those places, but that decade and a half was filled with memorable experiences.

I did the vegetarian thing for a while too, but I wanted to see the world off the beaten path with nothing but a backpack and sturdy boots and discovered that being picky about my diet is incompatible with accepting meals generously provided by locals who kindly adopted me wherever I went. Furthermore, meals are such a huge part of cultures that restricting myself in that regard would cause me to miss out on a big part of what I was traveling the world to discover in the first place. Not to mention that hunting around for the nearest snooty vegan restaurant was often not an option when far from the tourist haunts.

That said, I never ate any bats in Asia. I never even saw them on the menu, or saw them in markets. That's weird as I am sure many in the West now believe that bats are a staple in Asia and a regular item on the dinner table. In fact, it is probably about as common a meal as road-kill raccoon is in Canada, but that's getting further off-topic.

"you think i am taking up too much resources on the planet"

When you point the accusatory finger at those consuming less as being a problem, then you are consuming too much. That shouldn't be so difficult a concept to grasp.

"i now realize what john might have had to process in his earlier correspondence with you"

That poster is looking at the world filtered through capitalist ideology, so it is unfortunate that you are in agreement. That means you are using the same ideological filter, even if you tell yourself that you do not have an ideology. "De-growth" means consigning billions of humans to deadly poverty. "I got mine, now you others can just die!"

But I suppose I am being unfair. If those dirty billions in the world would just embrace your clean-living lifestyle, then the problems you perceive with overpopulation would disappear.

So... how many millions would fit in little cabins on the side of the ocean on your little paradise island? As I said, there as countless millions who would jump at the opportunity to copy that "low-impact" lifestyle, so why not work on giving them that opportunity?

It is only when one contemplates the above that it becomes apparent that quiet and solitude is a resource more precious than gold. A resource that some would prefer to hoard rather than share, even though when properly managed a little bit of quiet and solitude can go a long way. Intensive urbanization increases the quantity of quiet and solitude than can be shared by relocating the few who are hoarding that resource to cities, freeing up countryside for all to enjoy.

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 28 2020 13:35 utc | 350

kiwiklown @339

It may be difficult for people raised immersed in capitalist culture to understand, but the Native Americans were right about property ownership. It is a great tragedy that we trashed that concept rather than adopting it, but concepts are difficult things to entirely destroy. It remains as a target to aim for when trying to make our culture healthy.

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 28 2020 13:56 utc | 351

Mike @347: WTF should he have done differently?

  • He should've warned the public of the impeding pandemic. His first public address on March 4th he told everyone the virus would not be a big deal.
  • He should've ensured that everything was being done to properly address the virus - including diligent searching for the first sign of 'community spread'.
  • He should hold people accountable. Why haven't public health officials been fired? Especially the one's that repeatedly denied the request of a researcher in Washington State to test for community spread. That researcher ultimately defied those officials and found evidence of community spread on February 25th.
  • He should have discouraged Mardi-Gras and Spring Break celebrations. He may not have the ability to shut them down - but he could provide something called leadership.
  • He should set proper goals. The goal should be to defeat the virus, not maximizing profits by returning people to work at the earliest possible moment.
  • He should lift sanctions against countries that need help and not stoke racial tensions via loaded terms like "Chinese virus". With his actions, he has brought disrepute to USA - the rest of world sees USA as cruel and petty.

This is not meant to be a complete list.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 28 2020 13:57 utc | 352

So I'm posting this here after the Open Thread cause it's a necessary tongue-lashing.

This pandemic is demonstrating that few if any countries (societies), even the ones with a socialist healthcare system are placing the (financial/moral) emphasis that should be placed on healthcare. In a way, I hope this pandemic is a beating, a shellacking, because, we are living in the most shallow, materialistic, greed-driven, indecent time ever in the history of mankind.

Everyone, except people really suffering, really sick and poor have been living like there's no tomorrow and they're invincible and especially in the U.S. and Europe, and some areas of the MidEast; Israel worst of all. The rampant selfish delusion and apathy is unsustainable.

If people don't use this moment as a guide to prioritize what really matters: putting important resources (and participation) into healthcare, moving away from fossil fuels and caring for the future of the planet and the lesser of its people, then this will be the watershed moment when the western world could and should have changed its ways and didn't and the imminent, real countdown to extinction begins.

Don't follow the flash in the pan; the polish, the never-attainable image of perfection. This is why I am with the rudimentary Sanders whose priorities are well placed if not yet perfect, and who imperfectly delivers the right message without the frills. Don't push him to have to cow to the Establishment with your stupid purity test!

We must make healthcare, climate change and the plight of the vulnerable who struggle to survive in the midst of so much greed, materialism and hubris, the burning priorities, right now! Times up.

Or we are doomed from this moment with this moral decay. Trump and Biden will take us to successive disasters and we will not be equipped to handle what's coming physically, economically and spiritually.

This is the moment when we decide what really matters as a species: our true purpose and humanity or imminent self-destruction through depraved excess and apathy.

Sanders is the imperfect but essential vehicle of this critical message. Either you are for destruction for whatever bias or stupidity drives you or you are for what is RIGHT. There is no other path at this point and to imagine there is, to cynically profess there is with destruction staring us down, borders on wilfully CRIMINAL and selfishly PSYCHOTIC. Such is the degree of negligent behaviour and irresponsibility at this time. And don't make high and mighty hesitation a pseudo-intellectual exercise in complicity! I call that irresponsible, elitist, hoity-toity exceptionalism; inactive activism.

No, it's not hyperbole on my part! Look around you, lazy morons with mule blinders on!

Posted by: Circe | Mar 28 2020 14:01 utc | 353

c1ue @348

Prior well-conducted studies have shown Chloroquine to be effective as an anti-viral. (PeterAU1 has linked to at least one of these studies.)

The Chinese, who have the most experience fighting the virus, consider Chloroquine to be one of a handful of drugs that are effective against Covid-19.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 28 2020 14:01 utc | 354

What hurts me more than I can explain,is that protection to the virus infection comes with huge quantities of plastic objects,in a world that really suffoca

Posted by: willie | Mar 28 2020 14:06 utc | 355

Doctor explains coronavirus with lego, because, British.

Posted by: TJ | Mar 28 2020 14:07 utc | 356

..... in a world that already drowns in and suffocates on plastic,although Greta doesn't mind.

Sometimes the comment won't part,sometimes it jumps out ogf sight and into the thread.Scusi.

Posted by: willie | Mar 28 2020 14:09 utc | 357

Raoult has a new study out with a test on 80 patients. it seems to work (in association with the antibiotic, used to
reduce the lung infection once it is there and is indeed viral + bacterial)
check his twitter account

Posted by: Mina | Mar 28 2020 14:21 utc | 358

Posted by: ted01 | Mar 28 2020 0:01 utc | 305

thank you ted01 for your detailed reply. I would have asked further question about sweating etc., and you answered them already. I was asking about fever because high temperature is an important regulative for biochemical processes in the body. Some people just don't have (or get) the flu, some get it every year, some get it once in 10 years. I wonder which group of people are the majority.

Posted by: Phil | Mar 28 2020 14:29 utc | 359

there's another satirical article at OffGuardian which I find good (although I would not dare to write such an article myself), and indeed it is correct that we are now, after or during the 'war on terror', in a 'war on death'. I find this enormously funny, 'war on death'.

Posted by: Phil | Mar 28 2020 14:41 utc | 360

Japan is failing in containing SARS CoV-2:

Contagion grows: Tokyo, Chiba report roughly 60 more COVID-19 cases apiece

The bad news begun to sprout in tha Japanese MSM the exact moment the postponement of the 2020 Olympics was announced. What a coincidence...


For the people who are (still) doubting China's official numbers of infected and dead, here's the pudding:

Six metro lines in Wuhan resume operation


South Korea has, for the first time, reached the rate of more than 50% recovered (which theoretically means a positive rate of avaiable ICU beds). However, new cases rose again, to 146, of which half are from Daegu and North Gyeongsang:

Korea reports 146 new virus cases, total now at 9,478

That means both the rates of newly infected in Daegu/North Gyeongsang and the rest of the country have stabilized. Does this means the pandemic is contained or that the South Korean government has reached its full potential of testing? My bet is on the later.

Posted by: vk | Mar 28 2020 14:54 utc | 361

Time line of Trump comments to the Covid-19 pandemic:

Jan. 23: Wuhan + Hubei is in lockdown, many parts of China next days

Jan. 24: Trump tweets, “It will all work out well.”

Jan. 30: Trump holds a campaign rally in Iowa: “We think we have it very well under control. We have very little problem in this country at this moment — five. … we think it’s going to have a very good ending for it.”

Jan 30: President Trump discusses the U.S.-Mexico-Canada Agreement at Dana Incorporated in Warren, Mich. “Now we're working very strongly with China on the coronavirus -- that's a new thing that a lot of people are talking about. Hopefully it won't be as bad as some people think it could be.”

Feb. 2: Trump tells Fox News host Sean Hannity, “We pretty much shut it down coming in from China.”

Feb 14: Trump discusses the “very small” number of U.S. coronavirus cases with Border Patrol Council members: “We have a very small number of people in the country, right now, with it. It’s like around 12. Many of them are getting better. Some are fully recovered already. So we’re in very good shape.”

Feb. 24: Stock market plummets as Dow Jones Industrials falls more than 1,000 points. Trump tweet: "The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. We are in contact with everyone and all relevant countries. CDC & World Health have been working hard and very smart. Stock Market starting to look very good to me!"

Feb. 26: The first case emerges in California with no clear source, suggesting community spread of the virus. In a news conference that day, Trump says "the United States is really prepared.”

Feb. 26: Tweet from Trump: "...we closed up our borders to flights coming in from certain areas, areas that were hit by the coronavirus and hit pretty hard. … The infection seems to have gone down over the last two days.”

Feb. 26: Trump “And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that's a pretty good job we've done."

Feb. 28: to periodists he said : “It’s going to disappear. One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.”

March 2: Trump after a meeting with big pharma companies: "We had a great meeting today with a lot of the great companies and they're going to have vaccines, I think relatively soon.” (WHO said just before, it will take 18 months)

March 4: In a Fox News interview, Trump deflects criticism to his response by saying the Obama administration (including the vice president, Joe Biden) “didn’t do anything about” swine flu. (the claim was False). Trump continues to blame the Obama administration in an exchange with reporters at the White House. “The Obama administration made a decision on testing that turned out to be very detrimental to what we’re doing.” (but why testing is detrimental? It is alway positive!)

March 6: at CDC in Atlanta: “Anybody that needs a test, gets a test. They’re there. They have the tests. And the tests are beautiful.” (of course a flagrant lie)

March 6: He said in a tweet: "The Fake News Media and their partner, the Democrat Party, is doing everything within its semi-considerable power (it used to be greater!) to inflame the CoronaVirus situation, far beyond what the facts would warrant. Surgeon General, “The risk is low to the average American.” (what a joke!)

March 9: Trump tweets: “So last year 37,000 Americans died from the common Flu. It averages between 27,000 and 70,000 per year. Nothing is shut down, life & the economy go on.” (So he compared Covid-19 with flu)

March 10: in US capitol : “And we’re prepared, and we’re doing a great job with it. And it will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away.”

March 12: before bilateral meeting with Irish PM Trump said: “It’s going to go away. ... The United States, because of what I did and what the administration did with China, we have 32 deaths at this point … when you look at the kind of numbers that you’re seeing coming out of other countries, it’s pretty amazing when you think of it.” (now +1.700)

March 17 said in a news conference: “I’ve always known this is a real, this is a pandemic. I’ve felt it was a pandemic long before it was called a pandemic.

Yeah!, sure, he is always right, he always say the truth, he is, of course, the best human beeing ever existed on the Earth, period; and a lot of people, in fact, think this

I wish good luck to the american people, you will need it with this egocentric sociopath liar

Posted by: DFC | Mar 28 2020 15:06 utc | 362

I guess I never had flu: i cannot recall i ever had fever, ache joints or sweating. But i do get running nose very easily and cough/cold about once a year.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 28 2020 15:11 utc | 363

@JackRabbit #356
I'm not saying chloroquine can not be effective. The basic mechanism seems promising.
However, this highly touted study is clearly neither definitive nor even encouraging.
Furthermore, note that the study was specifically for "early" nCOV: most of the patients were 1-7 days after onset of symptoms/virusemia - precisely the period where chloroquine inhibiting viral infection would do the most good - as opposed to later pneumonia, non-cardiopathic edema and sepsis stages.
Note also that there seems to be little reason by azithromycin would be beneficial in the virusemia phase - which further brings into doubt the conclusions of this study.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 28 2020 16:11 utc | 365

@Mina #360
The poor quality of the first study greatly reduces my view of this doctor.
It isn't just that this study failed to show what it was touted to - it is that this study was clearly positioned to convey a message which conflicts with the actual operation of hydrochloroquine in the disease life cycle.
It does not make sense why HCH+azithromycin would make any difference at all in the virusemia stage - it is more likely that the results of this first study were cherry picked given the many inconsistencies, the oddity in study cohort composition and the poor quality in data consistency. The dosages were all over the place, and there are many examples where positive viral load results were obtained after NEG results showed up (i.e. the NEG results were wrong).
We'll see how this second study holds up.
One thing which will be sure to happen: the scrutiny of Raoult's results is only going to increase after this initial fiasco.
Which is as it should be.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 28 2020 16:18 utc | 366

@ Posted by: TJ | Mar 28 2020 16:01 utc | 366

There's nothing wrong with taking hydroxycloriquine for COVID-19 treatment - as long as it's the doctor's decision.

It is only the doctor on the field who's capable of prescripting hydroxycloriquine to a given patient, at the appropriate time, in the appropriate amount, in the appropriate dosage. It's the doctor who has the know-how and the critical thinking required to do this, not a random person in the street.

The problem was that a French doctor did a failed experiment and spread the fake news on Youtube. Deep down, he wanted more test subjects, but the thing escalated quickly, as the far-right appropriated his narrative to sell it as a miracle drug, which triggered a rush to the pharmacies to buy the drug for self-medication. This left a lot of people harming themselves for a drug that won't work 99% of the time and a lot of people with lupus left without the drug - essentially to die.

Posted by: vk | Mar 28 2020 16:23 utc | 367

DFC @ 364
I wish good luck to the american people, you will need it with this egocentric sociopath liar

As opposed to what? Politician = egocentric sociopath liar. That pretty much cover the whole of Western society in history. Probably all the others as well. You get used to it after a while, shrug it off and move on with your life.

Posted by: dltravers | Mar 28 2020 16:35 utc | 368

My apologies for coming late to the party...Western media are full of accounts of a "Russian disinformation campaign" about coronavirus. I am somewhat surprised that none of my other "usual sources" for the real story behind the Empire's propaganda have had anything to say about this. I'd appreciate your thoughts. Thank you!

Posted by: Martin Holsinger | Mar 28 2020 16:41 utc | 369

@69 vk

Yes, that doctor made a complete mess of it, this whole situation is a major global SNAFU all around. The thing that is bothering me right now is I don't understand why there have been no sizable randomised trials done by the chaps at Porton Down etc. It would not be difficult to get a few hundred volunteers from the military who give informed consent and then dose them with the virus and run a double blind trial. It could have been done months ago.

Posted by: TJ | Mar 28 2020 16:50 utc | 370

@Martin Holsinger #371
There's nothing to say.
The Russian meddling meme is 99% nonsense.
There are significant numbers of people engaged in pushing fake news to drive traffic, which in turn generates ad revenue. Note this story: Wired article on the Macedonian Fake News complex
Note furthermore (from the above) that the people doing this don't even speak English well. They browse through alt-right, alt-left, whatever extremist sites that are already publishing to extract the most anger-inducing memes, which they then propagate as fake news in order to push traffic.
The Alex Stamos types point to conflicting fake news messages as proof but fail to understand that the point isn't to sow discord, it is to make people mad and to click.
Even disregarding this, the "proof" offered for Russiagate was that $100,000 in advertising, half after the November 2016 election, would somehow outweigh the $1 billion spent on online advertising by the HRC campaign.
Doesn't pass the smell test for me, YMMV.
Cybercriminals have been busy using nCOV cures, nCOV news, nCOV infected case found near for several weeks now to successfully phish; why would the fake news/ad revenue pushers be any different?
And why would the mainstream media and intel agency establishment change their tune after 2 years of Russiagate?
Its not like they were doing fulfilling their charter to warn of dangers like nCOV and its impact on American jobs and lives...

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 28 2020 16:51 utc | 371

Rhode Island Police to Hunt Down New Yorkers Seeking Refuge

Rhode Island police began stopping cars with New York plates Friday. On Saturday, the National Guard will help them conduct house-to-house searches to find people who traveled from New York and demand 14 days of self-quarantine.

House to house searches.

National Guard members will be stationed at the T.F. Green airport, Amtrak train stations and at bus stops. The citizen-soldiers will be following up with people at local residences. The maximum penalty for not complying: a fine of $500 and 90 days in prison.

The 14 day quarantine of New Yorkers traveling was asked for by using voluntary compliance by the Federal government. It was not an order. It is another step in the direction of national martial law. Of course, under an emergency the state can do such things.

‘We should blow up the bridges’ — coronavirus leads to class warfare in Hamptons

A little taste of a dozen or so movies of the past...

Posted by: dltravers | Mar 28 2020 17:13 utc | 372

> In a few days it will have the greatest number of Covid-19 cases and the greatest number of casualties of the disease

Unless you spend 10 minutes looking into the reliability of China's reporting.

Good grief, B, your enlightened anti-Trumpism is making you believe the unbelievable.

I think your analysis on this topic strangely relies on legacy media reporting you elsewhere presuppose is dishonest and inaccurate.

Posted by: Florin | Mar 28 2020 17:36 utc | 373

There's a noticeable shortage of masks in my part of Oz. Fewer than 1% of people at the supermarket wear them. I've enquired at 7 pharmacies and all of them tell me that masks are on order but they don't know when they'll receive a delivery. The hardware stores have no dust masks of any kind.
Today I was walking past a cheap junk type "we've got every gadget, gizmo and tool you could imagine, and a few you couldn't" shops and they had a special on packs of 10 dust masks. They're made IN China and made OF porous soft poly-foam. I unpacked one and found that it could be made to produce a very good seal with the addition of a plastic clip above the thin metal strip. It tends to inflate and deflate as one exhales and inhales. A lot better than no mask.

Anyhow.... while I was in the junk shop and checking out the other dust masks on offer (one with a rubber chassis and two non-replaceable circular porous filters, and a similar rubber one with a single large replaceable filter) I told the bloke how surprised I was that none of the pharmacies knew when they would have stocks of PROPER masks. He told me that one of his friends works in a pharmacy and their mask orders were CANCELLED by because wants ALL surgical masks to become part of's stockpile - which suggests that Oz's previously imaginary stockpile will one day/soon(?) become a real stockpile.
That's not a bad thing and COULD help to frustrate hoarders.
BTW toilet rolls have been available since Wednesday, but only in 1 per customer 8-packs.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Mar 28 2020 17:52 utc | 374

My daughter works the ER in major city in hard hit state. Talk about a mess. I talked to her in the morning on her way to work. She wondered if she would be wearing the same N-95 mask she had worn the previous two days. She hoped they had got new ones because hers was disgusting. She had the N-95 with vent that dripped so had to wear a surgical mask over the N-95. Today they got new masks. N-95 w/out vent (which work poorly) that were donated by home depot. You know your health care system has failed when nurses and doctors do not have PPE.

There are heroes here that will likely never be recognized. They are the house keeping workers. They are the ones who sanitize the room after a covid patient has moved on. They deal with all the dirty infectious unseen crap left behind. Here is to the invisible hospital workers who quietly save lives without recognition.

So this is why you need to wear mask and gloves when you go out to practice social distancing of 5 meters. In the hospital were she works if you have lung issues/ struggle to breathe no matter the reason you are now intubated and put on a ventilator. Intubated is to be put in medically induced coma. You will be in coma for 3 to 5 weeks. You will survive or not. That really depends on your immune system and how well you took care of it. Most of the time family members do not even get to say good by.

The 3 to 5 weeks the patient is in coma should give that American the time to figure out the horror of their leadership in their abandonment of the people in the support of the military, wall street, and the lie, cheat and steal that enables their greed.

Posted by: diveshopingoa | Mar 28 2020 18:38 utc | 375

Important information:

Global COVID-19 cases surpass 500,000, vaccine at least 12-18 months away: WHO

That means we're at least one full year away from a vaccine.

This is key: it is only when a vaccine is developed and everybody is vaccinated that we can truly reopen the economy. Herd immunity would the way to go.

Posted by: vk | Mar 28 2020 19:00 utc | 376

@ 352 william gruff... thanks william... regarding an ideology - everyone has one, but perhaps many don't take the time to examine there own.. i am sure that is true... fwiw - i haven't watched tv since i left home and that was over 40 years ago.. i have never lived in a house with a tv, but i get your point.. i did take a course in sociology of the media many moons ago too.. basically it challenged one to question the information they are being given whether it is thru polls or the media and etc. etc.. i personally like it when people share something of themselves when trying to get to know someone else.. not everyone is inclined that way though and i can respect that too.. i grew up when draft dodgers where coming to canada - vancouver.. i met and interacted with these people when i was in my late teens... my viewpoint on usa foreign policy must have began sometime around then.. and generally it wasn't good then and it only got much worse as i continued to learn of the usa's role in latin america and etc. etc.. so i do have an ideology and i am pretty clear on a lot of it and how it got shaped too.. i take it you live in the usa? it is hard to describe what it was like growing up in vancouver in the 70's when i was a teenager and young adult, other then to say much of my world view was shaped by the more artistic energies going on, then on any economic realities that i also had to face.. i started developing an ideology around that pretty quickly too.. i won't go into it..

now a little further into reading your post i see the hostility again... why the hostile attitude william? have i said something that really pissed you off? you haven't articulated it, but i sense your hostility... like i said.. lets just drop it.. i am not into processing a post that is dripping with hostility... i wish you well.. i stopped reading your post and please don't bother to try engaging me here again as it doesn't work with hostility... i can't continue to read your post.. thanks - james

Posted by: james | Mar 28 2020 19:28 utc | 377

c1ue 367

The Chinese doctors that put together the handbook on coronavirus worked at a university hospital where they took in over a hundred severely ill patients.b From what I made of it most of the patients had secondary complications, but part of the treatment was eradicating the virus from their systems.
That handbook is worth a read if you have not done so yet.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 28 2020 19:54 utc | 378

c1ue 349 "Confirmed is assumed to be largely symptomatic. Actual is 2x confirmed representing the 50% of nCOV who are asymptomatic.

This may be true for countries not tracking and testing prople who have been in contact with known carriers. Very little is 100% accurate. Many diseases and conditions are diagnosed by a number of criteria.
One thing that was interesting in an interveiw of a Russian health official was that everbody who tested positive had a temperature of 38C (normal 36.5 - 37.5) even if they had no symptoms. The Russian doc said some people will feel like they are dying at 38 whereas other will not even know they are running a tempreture.
China has used this very effectivley with constant temperature monitoring of the population combined with tracking, they have been able to halt virus transmission within the coiuntry.
This makes me think that the Russian doctor is correct virtualy all who haver the virus, apart perhaps from the first day or so will run a slightly elevasted tempreture.

Nearly all estimates of unconfirmed cases involve pulling numbers out of the air. Pure guesses. I believe they should be based on observations like I am pointing out to try and get a ball park figure.
A major problem I see in trying to project numbers from one country onto another is the great difference in mortality rates, most of which I suspect is tied to medical care. The larger the number of patients in a medical center, the less care each patient recieves. This I believe influences the mortality rate a great deal. If mortality was a roughly constant percentage, it could be used to project toal cases.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 28 2020 20:32 utc | 379

james @379

What part of my post did you perceive to be hostile? I just reread it to check and while some of what I said might be a little blunt (I am Gruff, after all) nothing in it was written with anger or acrimony.

It is unfortunate that you perceive as some sort of an attack what I perceive as merely the truth. I get that in America (and apparently America's Hat as well) that the truth is often seen as hurtful these days, and that many nowadays there believe that their own internal mental states are the responsibilities of others, but I generally expect more maturity in fora like these and so invest less effort into mincing words to protect egos. Are you one with whom I should guard my words and topics discussed to protect you from your taking offense?

Perhaps a warning is necessary: All who engage with me are likely to occasionally find themselves offended. That is certainly not my intention, but neither is it my intention to make other people's internal mental states my concern. I do not demand that others take responsibility for my internal mental state and shade the truth to protect it, and I do not heed others' demands that I do as much for them. It does sadden me, though, if that is something that you require.

Honestly, though, please point out where in my post I was exhibiting gratuitous meanness or "hostility" (as opposed to just being blunt and Gruff) and I will consider a sincere apology.

In the meantime the US is on track for reaching 200,000 confirmed cases early next week, with 119,748 cases at the current time. Spain is set to surpass China sometime this weekend as well.

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 28 2020 21:09 utc | 380

Quick recap: Given nCOV epidemiological description, I have created a model which calculates expected deaths from "confirmed" case numbers as well as expected nCOV cases backwards from mortality totals.
The purpose of this exercise is to get an idea of just how many nCOV cases might actually be out there, since "confirmed" cases are more a reflection of the amount (or lack of) testing while actual deaths are a fairly firm statistic but is backward looking.
In the case of South Korea - which is doing a lot of testing, the CCD and DSU columns are almost identical. In contrast, Italy's DSU column is dramatically different than the number of "confirmed" cases; for Italy, the DSU/CCD ratio is nearly 20 (i.e. there could be 20 times more actual nCOV infected people than the confirmed numbers).
The idea is that the CCD and DSU numbers can give a range of possible values for what is really happening in different countries as well as to put published data in context.
I have also added the testing numbers from Wikipedia's page for reference, and also added a "CCD based actual per 10M population" as well as a "DSU based actual per 10M population" to put the relative numbers between countries in context.
Note that Italy and Spain have really large DSU/10M numbers, but New York's is no joke either. If we only looked at official "confirmed" numbers (i.e. CCD), New York would appear to be worse off than Italy - but the DSU numbers show that Italy and Spain are far, far worse: 4.4x and 3.3x worse, respectively.
CCD DSU numbers for March 28, 2020

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 28 2020 21:21 utc | 381

@Peter AU1 #381
You said

This may be true for countries not tracking and testing prople who have been in contact with known carriers. Very little is 100% accurate. Many diseases and conditions are diagnosed by a number of criteria.

The point of CCD/DSU is that we cannot know, with any certainty, what anybody is doing anywhere with regards to reporting standards. A temperature might be consistent with an ongoing symptomatic nCOV infection, but what about the asymptomatic? Who can possibly still spread it?

The difference between CCD and DSU derived actual cases numbers give an idea of just how likely one (or the other) is right. For South Korea and New York - the CCD and DSU numbers are quite close. For Germany, it is a huge outlier: DSU/CCD is literally half or less compared to anywhere else.
For Italy and Spain, CCD/DSU numbers are skewed to the opposite side.
Lastly, I just inserted a relative performance vs. 10M population to really understand what's the impact.
Note China and South Korea have very low incidence per 10M people compared with the US overall, Germany, etc - much less Spain and Italy.
It is this number which ultimately matters for this wave of nCOV infections and deaths.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 28 2020 21:32 utc | 382

c1ue @351
"...The data that does exist does not show promise for Hydroxychloroquine."

There seems to be many well respected scientist around the world that disagree with you.

The WHO obviously disagree you, plus other research institutes & universities where studies have commenced or are about too.

Links to reputable sources have been provided multiple times by different posters over the last few days which you have either ignored or decided that you know better.

If these scientists think there is 'promise', I think we all know who has more credibility.

Posted by: ted01 | Mar 28 2020 23:17 utc | 383

c1ue 384

This is what i wrote at 381 "One thing that was interesting in an interveiw of a Russian health official was that everbody who tested positive had a temperature of 38C (normal 36.5 - 37.5) even if they had no symptoms."

This I would like to find out more on. China are using tempretiure testing extensivly. This indicates people can be running a temp, but not feling any symptoms.

I am very interested in what you are doing wih numbers, but input numbers must be based on information even if that information can only give a ballpark figur. Ignoring information and pulling input numbers out of the air makes any results worthless.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 28 2020 23:31 utc | 384

The SF Bay Area update:

Alameda county (not including Berkeley)
Positive Cases: 240 +105 since 25 March
Deaths: 6 + 4 since 25 March

16 Cases No changes
Deaths Zero
The city is warning there is large scale transmission ongoing.

Contra Costa County
168 Cases + 60 since 25 March
2 deaths +1 since 25 March

San Francisco County
Positive cases 308 +108 since march 25
Deaths 4 +2 since 25 March 25

San Mateo County
Postive cases 274 +109 since 25 March
Deaths 6

Santa Clara County
591 Cases +17 since yesterday
Deaths 25 +5 since yesterday
The county heath deparment produces an excellent public heath dashboard

Sonoma County
Active Cases 40 +3 since 25 March
Deaths 1
Recovered 13
Cumulative 54

Solono county as of 27 March
Confirmed cases 34 +3 from March 25
Deaths 0
Active cases 12
Total hospitalizations ever 12

Marin County as of 27 March
Confirmed cases 68 + 8 from march 25
Deaths 1
Persons tested at County site 681
Hospitalizations 9

Santa Cruz County as of 27 March
Total cases 39 up 14 from 25 March
Deaths 0

Napa County as of 27 March
Active case 9 +6 as of 25 March
Deaths 0

Gov. Gavin Newsom said on Saturday that the number of COVID-19 patients requiring intensive care units more than doubled overnight, from 200 to 410...

California has, independent of its hospital system, procured and identified 4,252 ventilators, Newsom said, speaking from the Bloom Energy ventilator refurbishing site in Sunnyvale. More than 1,000 of those need to be refurbished. The state aims to increase the total number of functioning ventilators to 10,000, Newsom said...

These numbers include 170 ventilators that arrived in L.A. County from the national stockpile that were not functioning properly. Rather than “pointing fingers,” Newsom said, officials brought 150 up to the Bloom facility, where engineers have been scrambling to switch from producing fuel cells for clean energy, to vital medical equipment to battle the coronavirus...

In addition to the spike in ICU cases, Newsom said that total hospitalizations due to COVID-19 increased by nearly 39% overnight, with nearly 4,000 “persons of interest” within the hospital system but still awaiting test results.


Hayward Fire Station 7 began offering free corona virus testing at 9 a.m. Monday morning on the 23 of March as a result of the fire chief reaching out to Phara CEO's in the area thru linked in. One responded. It was an amazing effort by one individual to set up a test station free for all individuals. With this exception testing is still very limited and focused on heath care professionals, front line workers, and those with a doctors order if you can find a testing facility and a test. It takes typically 4 days to get the results.

Still waiting on total tests given per county compliance order to testing facilities.

Posted by: dltravers | Mar 29 2020 0:26 utc | 385

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Mar 28 2020 17:52 utc | 376

I personally use cheap dust mask, with some upgrading.
The problem is that the sizes of the little holes are quite varying. If you put the mask above a light source, you easily find that some holes are too large. The fix is to put a paper tissue and/or a coffee paper filter inside the dust mask.
I found the filtering is satisfying with the paper tissues which are packaged by ten pieces for your pocket.
And size #4 coffee filters were good fitting. By the way, they can alone make for "better than nothing" masks.
Paper tissue and coffee filter can be replaced at practically no cost. The cheap dust mask can be reused many times since they sustain to be bleach soaked and left to dry for the night.

Posted by: Parisian Guy | Mar 29 2020 0:42 utc | 386

Posted by: Mina | Mar 28 2020 15:11 utc | 365

I guess I never had flu: i cannot recall i ever had fever, ache joints or sweating. But i do get running nose very easily and cough/cold about once a year.

thank you Mina. It's an interesting fact some people don't get the flu. This can be observed, it's not rare. But never having had a fever is rather exceptional. Every organism needs to increase or lower the temperature occasionally to balance one biochemical process that has its optimum at a certain temperature against another biochemical process that has a different optimum temperature. Both process temperature curves meet at one point, which is the normal body temperature. Fever is necessary for balancing, but obviously this is not a general rule for every individual.

I know of people that do not emit sweat when doing labour or in hot season, but it is quite rare. Their bodies have, alchemistically speaking, a lot of fire element and few of water element. They are generally very tough and resistant, although they prefer a warm room and dislike humid places. They avoid bathing. And they always have handkerchiefs at hand because of the running nose.

Me I'm quite the contrary. Not much fire but lots of water. I sweat very much in hot climate and drink water like a camel, and I love swimming. Cold and humid places can be managed without much problem.

Interesting facts, thank you very much Mina.

Posted by: Phil | Mar 29 2020 1:00 utc | 387

Posted by: ted01 | Mar 28 2020 23:17 utc | 385

"well respected, blahblahblah"


You only give links, then pretends to use some authority argument, which is wrong by itself, and furthermore could not exist here. There is no "well respected" here. There is only a clownish scientist who claimed, two month ago, that nCovj was no big deal, because it was an exotic disease which could not dwell in France. The name of that clown is Raoult, can you understand and remember?

Posted by: Parisian Guy | Mar 29 2020 1:12 utc | 388

@ 382 william gruff...

let me simplify the back and forth in my own way.... john made a post on a previous thread mentioning 'de growth'... i think this idea has merit.. i mentioned i thought the population of the planet is unsustainable.... it appears from what i read from you that i am guilty for raising the topic of over population and that too many people on the planet is not a good thing... to me - that is it in a nutshell... please clarify for me what is wrong with my saying this in your eyes.. thanks..

Posted by: james | Mar 29 2020 2:01 utc | 389

james @314

I have a better appreciation for why you're here at moa. Thanks.

I'm here because I think it's an important resource for people who crave sanity and/or want to learn more about how governments and powerful people are ruling us, and increasingly taking more for themselves.

One of the main benefits of 'democracy' that is often cited is it's being a check on the powerful. IMO technology and class solidarity has allowed a small group to seize control and the resulting mis-allocation of resources threaten the future of our children, and possibly humanity itself.

We live in a global community now, but we have a ruling class that plays the same 'ol Empire games.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 29 2020 2:15 utc | 390

Posted by: Ahmed | Mar 29 2020 2:26 utc | 391

thanks jackrabbit! moa is an important resource for everyone here - yes.. we all learn from one another, especially as we're open to it... my ideas and views are subject to change and i hope my perspective continues to grow as opposed to shutting down!

Posted by: james | Mar 29 2020 2:31 utc | 392

@Liklemore 270

The Chinese scientists published their first trials on more than 100 patients and announced that the Chinese National Health Commission would recommend Chloroquine in their new guidelines to treat Covid-19

Did you check what was actually published by the Chineses?
1- there was no quantitative data. Only a vague claim that the result on more than 100 patients were good.
2- there was no recommandation made by the Chinese National Health Commission. It was recommanded by the authors.

That was more than one month ago. It was the time when it appeared that Raoult wad not only an idiot but also a liar, since he claimed that the Chinese paper was a solid proof, when it actually was quite unclear.
After that, Raoult lied furthermore, pretending that the Chinese were unjustly accused of faking their results, when any serious scientists was only saying that there was no proof of whatever here.

Posted by: Parisian Guy | Mar 29 2020 2:32 utc | 393


The problem with democracy is information. Without accurate information, dmocracy is the best scheme ever devised to control the masses. Drum democracy and chanmge by voting into people for several generations and they just keep plodding back to the polling booths in the delusion that voting will bring about change.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 29 2020 2:35 utc | 394

Parisian Guy @ 390

So says the 'Parisian guy' that speaks 'Belgium' - somewhere there is a very lucky village missing it's idiot.

Your cognitive ability seems to be somewhat lacking, like some sort of gibbering inarticulate fool.

If you can - using your left mouse button - click on one or more the links that have been provided multiple times & follow them to their referenced pages, & maybe to your complete surprise, remember the idiot is always surprised, they refer to eminent virologists, microbiologists & scientists from around the world, & the research that is about to commence, or has already commenced in chloroquine as possible early cure for coronavirus.

You seem to have a very unhealthy obsession with Dr. Didier Raoult M.D Ph.D.

Why is that?

Posted by: ted01 | Mar 29 2020 2:39 utc | 395

#90 Thank you for your sane assessment.

The truth is that EVERYBODY will contact this virus. Sooner or later.
Shelter at home will only delay the rate at which the entire world population will be exposed. Which is fine if the goal is to ease the burden on the health care system. The idea we can "fight" and "eradicate" the virus is absolutely false.

The only way to "stop" COV19 is for the population to be inoculated- naturally though exposure, or via vaccine. We know the virus survives longer outside the host and therefore is highly contagious. However, we have no idea whatsoever what the ASYMPTOMATIC RATIO is. For a virus to spread this quickly and to every corner of the globe and NOT have a worse infection rate indicates that most people encounter the virus and become inoculated (immune) without any symptoms. The fact that children and healthy adults, for the most part, do not become seriously ill indicates that, though COV19 is more contagious than other strains it might actually be less virulent. As #90's post shows, viral pneumonia deaths in Italy in the recent past were equally as high if not higher before COV19.

In this fast spread scenario it will naturally pick off the sick, co-morbid, and immuno-compromised VERY quickly- they are like sitting ducks. But, again, we will NEVER be able to stop their eventual exposure... only delay it.

If China and S Korea's number of new infections are deaths are really going down amidst loosening lock down, then the world should take a deep breath and relax. This whole "epidemic" was just due to the "tidal wave" nature of the faster rate of spread.

...and, I have to laugh at all the mask enthusiasts on this forum. Masks are for medical personnel to keep their airborne respiratory droplets from seeding infections in open wounds. They do not prevent exposure of the "wearer" to the microflora in the environment, in fact they are a perfect culture medium and the COV19 will gladly sit on your mask and wait for you to take off your mask, transfer to your hand (or to the buttons on the microwave as that you put the mask in)... make one mistake and touch your nose... GAME OVER, you lost to the bug. Seriously, our other mammal friends are out there eating shit and half dead things- we are designed to live symbiotically with microflora!

Posted by: Matt | Mar 29 2020 3:02 utc | 396

Maybe things can start to move forward -

"Five minute virus test approved in US for use almost anywhere"

Posted by: ted01 | Mar 29 2020 3:09 utc | 397

Posted by: ted01 | Mar 29 2020 2:39 utc | 397

Are you able to provide one relevant argument? I mean, is there one reason to believe your links deserve any attention? When did you demonstrate you had some understanding of the topic?
Until now, have you been something more than the hollow one who
1- knew nothing about Raoult before today
2- nevertheless pretends he can teach others

I'll repeat for the third times: two month ago, Raoult was telling everybody that nCov was not real danger. Since he has constantly worked to build it's own audience in French public opinion, lot of peoples and politicians believed him. Today, thousands of Frenchs have died because the danger ofnCov had been underestimated.
Of course, Raoult is one of the main culprits (as much as the previous health minister, Buzyn). Therefore Raoult needs to play the narrative of the scientific savior persecuted by the conspiracy of Macron + Big Pharma + Academic Establishment.

And he finds useful idiots like you to parrot his lies.

Posted by: Parisian Guy | Mar 29 2020 4:58 utc | 398

parisian guy @ 400

Repeat after me - it is not about Didier Raoult.
Again - it is not about Didier Raoult.
Again - it is not about Didier Raoult

Moving on-
Repeat after me - it is about research into chloroquine as an possible cure to early stage Covid19 infection.
Again - it is about research into chloroquine as an possible cure to early stage Covid19 infection.
Again - it is about research into chloroquine as an possible cure to early stage Covid19 infection.

I can't make you read any of those links, but if you did you would find out that they have nothing to do with Didier Raoult.

I have underestimated your stupidity.

Posted by: ted01 | Mar 29 2020 5:35 utc | 399

Parisian Guy #400

Perhaps the French people might consider the background. That will also assist them to identify their real enemy.
This is taken from a transcript of a podcast at Global Research.

Bonnie, there are two pieces of audio which I think you should broadcast. I’ll broadcast the first one now and you’ll hear it. That is the one by Redfield. It’s 30 seconds.

CDC director Robert Redfield admitted some Americans who seemingly died from influenza were tested positive for novel #coronavirus in the posthumous diagnosis, during the House Oversight Committee Wednesday. #COVID19

— Global Times (@globaltimesnews) March 12, 2020

Redfield: University of Washington has developed their own tests –

Congressman: Were those test kits available last Friday?

Redfield: Yes, sir.

Congressman: Thank you. And without test kits, is it possible that those who had been susceptible to influenza might have been mischaracterized as to what they actually had, it’s quite possible they actually had COVID-19?

Redfield: The standard practice is the first thing you do is tests for influenza. So if they had influenza they would be positive for –

Congressman: But only if they were tested. So if they weren’t tested, we don’t know what they had.

Redfield: Correct.

Congressman: Okay. And if somebody dies from influenza, are we doing post-mortem testing to see if it was influenza or it was COVID-19?

Redfield: There is a surveillance system to test for pneumonia that the CDC has. It’s not in every city, every state, every hospital.

Congressman: So we could have people in the United States dying for what appear to be influenza when in fact it could be the coronavirus or COVID-19.

Redfield: Some cases have been actually diagnosed that way in the United States today.

Congressman: Thank you.

Now, that statement corroborates the studies conducted in China and Japan and Taiwan, but it also begs the question, when? Was it in October? Was it in November? Was it in December? In other words, Redfield’s statement doesn’t say when those influenza tests were conducted. Well, they’re conducted on a routine basis. Presumably if it’s seasonal it starts in November or October and it extends right through the winter.

But what happened is that this statement in effect provides legitimacy to studies conducted by Japanese, Chinese and Taiwan virologists to the effect that it is possible that the virus did not originate in the seafood market in Wuhan; it actually could have originated in the United States of America.

So I am suggesting that regardless of the clowns poncing about the stage craving attention, there is a country that has unleashed a virus of deadly proportions and market meltdown that impoverishes everyone. And to think that so many years ago France honourably supported the liberty, equality and fraternity of that country.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 29 2020 8:57 utc | 400

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