Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 09, 2020

Why Is The Coronavirus More Dangerous Than The Flu?

Today the financial markets finally recognized the economic damage the novel Coronavirus will cause.

The price war in the crude oil markets which Russia initiated did not cause today's stock market fall but it also did not help. While cheap oil is supposed to be good for the economy the drop will also cause significant damage in the U.S. financial markets as the whole fracking industry in the United States is laden with debt and is now destined to be wiped out. Expect crude prices to sink to $20 per barrel as frantic overproduction and a drop in demand due to the virus coincide. Russia is well positioned to win this price war. Others are not.

It is the virus pandemic that causes the downturn in stock markets. But what makes the Sars-CoV-2 virus, as the novel Coronavirus is now officially known, so dangerous? The Covid-19 disease the virus causes is basically a flu like disease but one of a way more severe kind.

And it is a totally NEW kind of 'flu' and that makes all the difference.

Each year some 15% of the world population will be infected with one or more of the dozens of flu viruses we know. The people get ill and most will recover while they also develop some immunity against the specific virus they were infected with. Over the years this sums up to a basic immunity level within our societies. So many people already had a flu from the well known viruses that most of them will not get infected during another flu season. We have also developed vaccines against the most well known viruses. They help to keep the people who work in health care on their job even when many new flu patients come in.

But when a new viruses evolves everything is different. Our societies do not have a basic immunity against a new virus. Without countermeasures many more people will get sick during the first, second and third wave of a new virus onslaught than during a normal flu season. Health care staff will also get infected and must quarantine itself. Some health care workers will probably die. Hospitals will become overwhelmed and the health care system will break down just as it did in Wuhan, China. The breakdown of the health care system also leads to a much larger number of virus death than under a working health care system.

Here is a surgeon in Bergamo, Italy, describing such a situation:

The cases multiply, up to a rate of 15-20 hospitalizations a day all for the same reason. The results of the swabs now come one after the other: positive, positive, positive. Suddenly the emergency room is collapsing. Emergency provisions are issued: help is needed in the emergency room. A quick meeting to learn how the to use to emergency room EHR and a few minutes later I'm already downstairs, next to the warriors on the war front. The screen of the PC with the chief complaint is always the same: fever and respiratory difficulty, fever and cough, respiratory insufficiency etc ... Exams, radiology always with the same sentence: bilateral interstitial pneumonia. All needs to be hospitalized. Some already need to be intubated, and go to the ICU. For others, however, it is late. ICU is full, and when ICUs are full, more are created. Each ventilator is like gold: those in the operating rooms that have now suspended their non-urgent activity are used and the OR become an ICU that did not exist before.

The current case fatality rate in Lombardy has now topped 6%. We know from China (ex Hubei province) that in a functioning health care system the death rate of Covid-19 patients is lower than 1%. It is not the virus that kills more people in Italy, it is an overwhelmed health care system.

A health care system that is overwhelmed with Covid-19 cases can also no longer take care of regular cases. People with an acute heart attack, with diabetes problems, or kids who have fallen off a bicycle will find that the hospitals are full and unable to care for them.

The only way to prevent such a catastrophic development is to spread out the timeline during which the epidemic happens.


We can do that by lowering the reproductive number of the disease. Under normal circumstance one sick person will infect two, three or even many more healthy ones. We can lower that number by prohibiting large congregations, by isolating infected persons and by good hygiene.

People who test positive or show symptoms need to be quarantined. Everyone needs to be made aware of the dangers and learn how to avoid them. Washing ones hands helps as soap easily destroys the fatty lipid layer that forms the skin of the virus.

The control measures China took in Wuhan were designed to drive the reproduction numbers down.

The effective reproductive number [in Wuhan] dropped from 3.86 before interventions to 0.32 post interventions.

Some of the measures China took were severe but they worked:

The daily Covid-19 onset and the control measures across different periods

Source: Evolving Epidemiology and Impact of Non-pharmaceutical Interventions
on the Outbreak of Coronavirus Disease 2019 in Wuhan, China

South Korea has also demonstrated how quick and decisive action can keep the numbers manageable.

After the virus has passed through our societies in two or three slow waves our communities will have developed a sufficient basic immunity level. In a year or two we may even have a vaccine against it. The virus will then become a relatively harmless addition to the ones we already know.

An example for this is the Hong Kong flu of 1968. The then new H3H2 virus infected 500.000 Hong Kong residents. In 1968 and 1969 it killed more than a million people worldwide even though it had a death rate below 0.5%. Our populations are now largely immune to it and an H3H2 vaccine is now part of the general cocktail of a flu vaccination.

No country will be spared by this virus and the impact will be similar everywhere.


What must be done now is to flatten the curves, to lower the number of Covid-19 infections so our health care systems can cope with the epidemic.

In the United States the Sars-CoV-2 epidemic is still seen as a Monday to Friday problem.


The reason for this is that the president and a significant part of the U.S. population have yet to understand the issue.

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump - 14:47 UTC · Mar 9, 2020

So last year 37,000 Americans died from the common Flu. It averages between 27,000 and 70,000 per year. Nothing is shut down, life & the economy go on. At this moment there are 546 confirmed cases of CoronaVirus, with 22 deaths. Think about that!

This is not a common flu. This is a NEW flu. We have zero basic immunity against it. Without countermeasures the number of cases will explode and there will be many serious ones. They will overwhelm the health care systems and that makes all the difference.

All countries need to test as many people as possible to isolate positive cases. People who test positive but show no symptoms should not be send home to their families. China has learned that doing that only creates new clusters of cases as all family members are then likely to get sick. Those who develop symptoms must be isolated separately and with access to care. Only the 20% who will develop serious complications should be admitted to dedicated hospitals.

The U.S. must take measures to make tests available and free for all. It must also deliver the necessary healthcare free of charges. The National Disaster Medical System (NDMS) Definitive Care Reimbursement Program can be used to carry the costs.

There needs to be some form of incentive for everyone to take sick leave when necessary. The behavior below is dangerous but the man had likely no other choice.

ABC News @abcnews - 1:24 UTC · Mar 8, 2020

#BREAKING: Authorities say a man with coronavirus ignored instructions to self-isolate pending test results, instead working several shifts at Hobart's Grand Chancellor Hotel.

People must be made able to pay their bills even when they are sent into quarantine. The simplest way to achieve that is to make sick leave pay mandatory by law. Undocumented immigrants must be able to seek tests and healthcare without fear of deportation. That requires a change in the current mandatory notification scheme.

More economic measures will have to be taken to restart the economy after the slump the pandemic will cause. Large and diverse government spending program will have the best effects. Tax breaks for the rich will not do.

Today's market crash and Trump's ignorant and disastrous handling of the pandemic make it now less likely that he will get reelected. The pandemic also guarantees that demanding medicare for all will become a huge winner.

Previous Moon of Alabama posts on the issue:

Posted by b on March 9, 2020 at 17:54 UTC | Permalink

« previous page

Ben that is a bankster trying to sell you something, it's a bank "blog". Most likely he s trying to "sell" you "losing your money" by pretending "Nordics" is a safe haven when they're not and could just as easily be worse (oil and tourism obliterated, general contraction in everything else just as much as the rest of the world). Nasty people can be found in any country.

- -

Slightly unrelated to that (but only a little; it's like a "translate movement"/"crab walk" in a coordinate system of topics) one could claim something entirely the opposite by looking at the third picture b posted where Norway is the worst country in the world, closely followed by Switzerland, the Netherlands, and then Iran with all of them having the steepest curves from their start to the most recent data point.

Admittedly that is only with a very naive reading of the graph where the US would be the world's best country in dealing with COVID since it has the flattest overall curve.

The graph is an excellent example of how numbers can lie despite being true to the extent possible when collected. The numbers say nothing about how many or few were tested, how many cases were from traveling and being infected abroad (in which case those actually belong to the country of origin) as opposed to how many patients were infected by local transmission, or how prevalent travel to the different source locations is within the various countries.

All of those things would be key to untangle the numbers into something meaningful and comparative and after that one could in addition start to apply differentiation between patient groups, severity, recovery etc.

The graph is interesting primarily because of how bad it is (and this is not b's fault). I love that b posted it because the graph is awesome in this sense and I'm glad I've seen it; the graph perfectly illustrates either/both how much we don't know or how badly we can confuse ourselves.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Mar 10 2020 3:49 utc | 101

The virus has an extremely high R0 value, calculated to be between 4.7 and 6.6, which makes it as infectious as smallpox and polio.

Coronavirus is spread via aerosols that can travel much further than droplets (several meters at least). This type of spread can allow one infected person sitting in a bus to infect many of the other passengers, even those sitting quite far away. The virus also remains infectious for days on surfaces touched by an infected person.

This means that unless very drastic measures are taken to quarantine and restrict transmission, it will multiply exponentially and will likely overwhelm any healthcare system, including the US healthcare system.
See this video by Chris Martenson The US is in Deep Trouble that explains the exponential spread of the virus. Estimating that there were about 2000 case in the US on March 6, there will likely be 1 million cases in the US by the end of April, and 2 million by the end of the first week May. Because there are only only about 330,000 hospital beds that are open in the US (there are less than 1 million total and less than 100,000 ICU beds), it means that by sometime in May-- at the latest -- all the hospital beds in the US will likely be filled.

The situation will be made much worse because of shortages of masks and medications, which will also cause the infection of many healthcare workers. The US gets 97% of all its medications from China.

The Vice President will be praying for you.

Posted by: Perimetr | Mar 10 2020 4:16 utc | 102

Or to put it another way: the error bars not shown for each number in that graph are likely to approach the entire size of each respective country's population :)

In fairness to the graph if the error bars were included they wouldn't give a wrong impression or any bias towards small countries since they would scale properly ("Numbers of cases per 10 million of population" has been scaled in the graph and the error bars would have to scale likewise to be correct since some of the countries have much smaller or much larger populations than 10 million and few if any have almost exactly 10 million).

Aren't numbers awesome? (I prefer mine in "abstract space/abstract reality" where they're less likely to do active harm or at least until science catches up with them and finds some use for it lol).

Off topic tidbit from a larger post I never finished:
2 + 2 = 5 makes sense if you're counting in prime gaps! :) "The numbers" go 2, 3, 5 if one regards primes as more fundamental or important numbers than integers. Instead of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 one would count 0 (nothing/start), 1 (unit), 2 (first prime), 3 (second prime), 5 (third prime), 7 (fourth prime), 11 (fifth prime) and so on :D

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Mar 10 2020 4:18 utc | 103

I am not sure why I should trust the government reporting out of Wuhan let alone build out some solid observations on those numbers. I feel more comfortable trusting the numbers out of Italy. The overwhelming of the care system seems to be on point. Chinese authorities in Wuhan had to add a number of facilities to cope with the crisis.

It was Bin Salman, not Putin, who took the oil markets down. Russia was willing to stand pat for a while but Bin Salman massively cut prices and raised production at the same time trying to undercut Russia by taking their customers. The same weekend he had to put down a coup coming from within the ruling family. It appears that some in the Saudi family did not like his decision and it was a very foolish move.

I have been watching the Trump Pence news conferences and the team they put together. The response is reasonably good considering the size of the bureaucracy they have to move. Trump, of course, acts like the usual idiot talking massive generalities but they have put in a decent effort. Let us hope both sides put aside the nonsense for a while and get it together.

Posted by: dltravers | Mar 10 2020 4:37 utc | 104

@dltravers #103
I posted a model on Saudi deficits vs. production and oil price on the SA thread; basically, if oil prices drop significantly - it won't matter how much more oil SA pumps, unless they can put out more than a 50% increase.
The question is then: who is more vulnerable to low oil prices: Saudi Arabia, Russia, US oil frackers, other OPEC members?
The Russian reason for refusing to agree to OPEC+ proposed cuts is very reasonable: why should Russia support US oil fracking? If there are to be cuts, all the major producers should participate.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 10 2020 4:58 utc | 105

I question easy analyses. The stats tonight (at show that of active discovered cases, 88% are "mild condition," and 12% "serious or critical" (and the trend favors increase of the former, not the latter, category). People who are saying that with 2 million Americans infected, hospitals will be filled by May, are simply speculating.

America reports tonight 708 cases. Because this is a contagious viral strain, and those 708 went though an incubation period, is it not likely that 10s of thousands have been infected, with the bulk remaining unaffected and/or symptomless with immune systems able to ward off the disease, and the bulk of those with symptoms displaying only mild symptoms?

Clearly, Italy has a problem. But Korea has shown that the Italian experience is not universal.

Reasonable behavior is necessary. Speculation and panic will detract from reasonable behavior.

Posted by: zakukommander | Mar 10 2020 5:28 utc | 106

The Good Old Days vs the 2020 Coronavirus Daze.

In Oz the police conduct Random Breath Tests to detect drivers under the influence of alcohol and/or illegal drugs. The sites for these tests are chosen for the absence of possible escape routes. There is always at least one Police pursuit car present so that anyone who attempts to evade the test can be caught and tested.
Refusal to provide a sample of breath carries a heavy, automatic penalty.

If one was stopped in the early days of RBT the testing officer would approach your vehicle, breathalyser in hand, and announce that he/she requires you to provide a breath sample. He would then produce a sachet containing a disposable mouth-piece, open one end of the sachet, fit the mouthpiece to the breathalyser and ask you to blow into the mouthpiece.

Yesterday, a friend told me she'd been RBTed earlier that day and that the cop approached her car with the mouth-piece already fitted to the breathalyser. If anyone breathalysed at that site catches COVID-19 after blowing into a pre-fitted mouth-piece then the cops are probably going to get their asses sued off by a hapless, innocent victim of negligent Government revenue-raising.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Mar 10 2020 5:31 utc | 107

Said above:

I think vk is right about what could cause a belief in the narrative of a biological weapon because the narrative itself is utterly pointless; the people claiming it is a weapon don't seem to understand that it makes no positive or meaningful difference whether or not they should turn out to be right.
// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ah yes. The 'leap to the obvious' is so easy and natural. However, what was obvious yesterday so very often turns to the less than wrong tomorrow. We will probably never know the real truth, but I am pretty sure this was a bio-weapon prototype. These labs do not exist to find cures -- they exist to find weapons. And if this virus was created in a lab, where it was supposedly never supposed to leak out -- what else could go wrong?

Oh I do suppose a few things perhaps could...

Such as say -- accidental all-out thermonuclear war. Just for an example. What I'm saying is, is that this could become a crucial learning experience.

It's pretty sure to have gigantic side effects. Such as a brand new cabin fever driven 'baby boom'. And this will become the new HOTHOUSE GENERATION. (But they were so sure that history was over...)

Posted by: blues | Mar 10 2020 5:47 utc | 108

Perimetr #101

The situation will be made much worse because of shortages of masks and medications, which will also cause the infection of many healthcare workers. The US gets 97% of all its medications from China.

This is outrageous. It means that coronavirus is a sanctions buster. So is the $30 oil price. The empire cannot possibly tolerate being mocked by a virus and cheap oil for the folks. They have all these beautiful weapons and they can't use them ??? What is the world coming to.

These foreigners are demanding that the USA remove all sanctions (next week that is). What arrogance. Trade our sanctions for a few pussy medications. Our beautiful weapons can fix that! ho ho ho.

This is not a good story so don't expect it to be published in any of the Five Eyes media.

Make America Go Away.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 10 2020 6:26 utc | 109

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ //
American Association for the Advancement of Science
By Derek Lowe 4 March, 2020
ScienceMag - Pipeline

Since this is going to be a post about the coronavirus, let’s start off with this PSA: wash your hands. These viruses have a lipid envelope that is crucial to their structure and function, and soaps and detergents are thus very effective at inactivating them. It’s fast, it’s simple, and it’s one of the more useful things that any individual can do under these conditions.
// ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This involves just a bar of soap.

This fellow is a real hot-shot big-time microbiologist. Since I read this, when I come home, I just grab a plain ordinary bar of soap, and lather up my hands real well, and leave the soap on my hands for 10 or 15 seconds or so. I now believe that ordinary soap is very effective at neutralizing this particular virus.

So I will not go out and fight the crowds to buy some 'sanitizer'. At least not for CVD-19.

I am now also taking:

~6,000IU Vitamin D3
30mg Zinc Gluconate
500mg Vitamin C (this is a low amount)
1,000mcg Vitamin K2
250mg Niacinamide (not just 'niacin')
1 'One-A-Day' high quality vitamin combo

I'm no doctor, but that is what I am taking.

Posted by: blues | Mar 10 2020 6:40 utc | 110

dltravers #103

The response is reasonably good considering the size of the bureaucracy they have to move. ... Let us hope both sides put aside the nonsense for a while and get it together.

Unfortunately they don't have a bureaucracy. Since neo-liberal economics and the fifty plus year assault on the government sector, they have a partisan employment service instead. Little skill or intelligence, a century of wisdom erased, no capacity to act and totally ossified in manoeuvrability.

To trust in any meaningful bureaucracy to motivate, let alone move, you would have to look for a state that values human rights, trusts its citizens and scientists and administrators and refrains from denigrating public medicine and health services.

Good luck finding that effective and resourced public medicine in the USA right now.

I think you will be talking to the National Guard (Ha ha ha!) or the armed and murderous police well before you will be talking to any decent informed medico. And then after getting past the security apparatus there will be a gentleman from your insurance company wearing a bright pussy coloured badge with NO written on it.

Try Cuba.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 10 2020 6:41 utc | 111

ARN 40, Mina 42,

The virus does seem to be in Turkey. It is not being reported. We have medical friends at a hospital in Istanbul that say the hospital is full of corona virus patients. I have even seen a diagnosis form stating such for one patient. Still, it is hard to know how serious it is when nothing is reported. TV stations regularly report how people can protect themselves against the disease. But up until a day or so ago (haven't watched anything since), I haven't seen any actual reports yet of the virus in Turkey.

Possibly, as Mina suggested this is about Erdoğan's less than popular wars, or an effort to shield the tourist industry, even the economy in general.

Posted by: bluedotterel | Mar 10 2020 6:47 utc | 112

blues #111

So I will not go out and fight the crowds to buy some 'sanitizer'. At least not for CVD-19.

There won't be any sanitiser soon.

Recipe for sanitiser:
• 3 TB aloe vera
• 2 TB witch hazel or rubbing alcohol, if using alcohol reduce to 1 TB
• 1/2 tsp vitamin E oil or olive or whatever
• 20 drops tea tree essential oil
• 10 drops lavender essential oil
1. Combine all the ingredients in a bowl. Mix well and squeeze through muslin cloth into another bow and store in a small jar or a squeeze tube.

Remedy for toilet paper madness:
install bidet spray and a drying cloth.
Wash cloth daily or whatever.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 10 2020 6:55 utc | 113

Here is an interesting article below that discusses where the Coronavirus may have actually originated from.

The section about the Taiwanese virologist's research is particularly stunning:

"One of his main points is that the type infecting Taiwan exists only in Australia and the US and, since Taiwan was not infected by Australians, the infection in Taiwan could have come only from the US.

The basic logic is that the geographical location with the greatest diversity of virus strains must be the original source because a single strain cannot emerge from nothing. He demonstrated that only the US has all the five known strains of the virus (while Wuhan and most of China have only one, as do Taiwan and South Korea, Thailand and Vietnam, Singapore, and England, Belgium and Germany), constituting a thesis that the haplotypes in other nations may have originated in the US.

Korea and Taiwan have a different haplotype of the virus than China, perhaps more infective but much less deadly, which would account for a death rate only 1/3 that of China.

Neither Iran nor Italy were included in the above tests, but both countries have now deciphered the locally prevalent genome and have declared them of different varieties from those in China, which means they did not originate in China but were of necessity introduced from another source. It is worth noting that the variety in Italy has approximately the same fatality rate as that of China, three times as great as other nations, while the haplotype in Iran appears to be the deadliest with a fatality rate of between 10% and 25%. (7) (8) (9)

Due to the enormous amount of Western media coverage focused on China, much of the world believes the coronavirus spread to all other nations from China, but this now appears to have been proven wrong. With about 50 nations scattered throughout the world having identified at least one case at the time of writing, it would be very interesting to examine virus samples from each of those nations to determine their location of origin and the worldwide sources and patterns of spread.

The Virologist further stated that the US has recently had more than 200 “pulmonary fibrosis” cases that resulted in death due to patients’ inability to breathe, but whose conditions and symptoms could not be explained by pulmonary fibrosis. He said he wrote articles informing the US health authorities to consider seriously those deaths as resulting from the coronavirus, but they responded by blaming the deaths on e-cigarettes, then silenced further discussion. …

The Taiwanese doctor then stated the virus outbreak began earlier than assumed, saying, “We must look to September of 2019”.

He stated the case in September of 2019 where some Japanese traveled to Hawaii and returned home infected, people who had never been to China. This was two months prior to the infections in China and just after the CDC suddenly and totally shut down the Fort Detrick bio-weapons lab claiming the facilities were insufficient to prevent loss of pathogens. (10) (11)

He said he personally investigated those cases very carefully (as did the Japanese virologists who came to the same conclusion).. This might indicate the coronavirus had already spread in the US but where the symptoms were being officially attributed to other diseases, and thus possibly masked."

China’s Coronavirus: A Shocking Update. Did The Virus Originate in the US?

Posted by: ak74 | Mar 10 2020 7:03 utc | 114


Good start on enhancing your immune system. Perhaps the following daily additions may help:
(1) increase vitamin C to 1 g and use the liposomal form.
(2) Consider quercitin at 1-2 g per day as it is useful as an anti-viral and supports many metabolic functions (common component in fruits and vegetables).
(3)n-acetyl glutathione or the glutathione precurser N acetyl-L-cysteine (NAC) 600-1200 mg as it supports mitrochondrial function and reduces pulmonary fibrosis.
(4)Selenium at 200 mcg to improve thyroid health. Careful as selenium at much higher levels
(5)curcumin as it provides protection from cytokine storms due to viral infections.
(6) omega-3 oils (1-2 g) and avoiding of omega-6 fats which cause inflammation.

Posted by: Krollchem | Mar 10 2020 8:01 utc | 115

Krollchem | Mar 10 2020 8:01 utc | 116

"Consider quercitin at 1-2 g per day" - how to get this? In fruits one has in most cases only precursors at 0,1-10 mg maximum per fruit. In addition there is a serious issue concerning the bioavailability of it.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Mar 10 2020 9:01 utc | 116

Thanks for that link snake.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Mar 10 2020 9:24 utc | 117

It is probably in Turkey but media control is a big preoccupation of Erdoğan. Opposition TV stations can get closed down, social media is targeted and people are jailed for insulting the President etc. Recall that access to Turkish Wikipedia was denied for over two years on some phony pretext.

Posted by: Waldorf | Mar 10 2020 10:11 utc | 118

1. It already is "a crucial learning experience" and has been for over a month and will continue to be so for at least several more months but perhaps much longer than that.

2. Despite how obvious both that and the uselessness of speculation about weapons is people insist on disregarding it just in the same way as some people are sure to continue disregarding washing their hands at all.

3. There's no shortage of things one could speculate about which only makes it look as if some people treat it as entertainment. If that's all it is (and what else could it be except that or vk's take since none of it actually helps) they might as well talk about aliens or Nessie and step away from the current health emergencies.

+1 for ordinary old-fashioned bar soap and a good scrub.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Mar 10 2020 10:18 utc | 119

"The price war in the crude oil markets which Russia initiated..."? Did Russia initiate the war, or Saudi clown Prince?

Posted by: Steve | Mar 10 2020 10:46 utc | 120

It has been claimed by more tahn one source based on genetic analysis that the virus was not of natural origin. Would be easy to disprove if not the case.

Such virious might be bio-weapon and yet not a military weapon - would be obvious observation. Analagous to what is said of warfare can be effective to wound as to kill. However in this case would be economic weapon.

Would be difficult to prove source. But response does not require proof in practice, only discretion.

Posted by: jared | Mar 10 2020 11:15 utc | 121

Japan to punish reselling of masks for profit with year in prison, ¥1 million fine — or both

I thought these "totalitarian" measures were only possible in China...

Shizuoka politician apologizes for making ¥8.8 million selling pricey virus masks

I thought this kind of local level corruption and cronyism only happened in the "degenerated" ranks of the CCP...


More circumstancial evidence the South Koran government is cooking the numbers:

Government's 'self-praise' in virus fight taking flak

"The number of tests is large because the nation has a large number of people suspected to have caught coronavirus. However, the government is declaring a victory by turning it the other way around," Hong said on his Facebook.

All the evidence indicates South Korea is just following the capitalist modus operandi of chasing the rabbit: it is only testing the people who are already showing symptoms. There's no evidence those containers with fast food tests are working on a significant scale: there are a lot of factors that make a random individual in South Korea to stop in one of them to get itself tested; just making them freely available is not enough. Besides, just because an individual who stopped by the container tested negative, it doesn't mean it won't get infected after, as it will go back to its daily routine (because capitalism can't stop, it needs to keep its wheel spinning).

I don't trust the capitalist numbers around the world for one simple fact: they don't have the means to test everybody and to stop their own economies in order to preserve the non-infected from being infected in the near future. An illustrative example of this can be observed in the Czech Republic, which went from just five cases on March 3rd (three on March 1st) to 40 on March 10th - one of the new infected having just arrived from Italy. Those numbers indicate Czech Republic did absolutely nothing to stop the epidemic, and that they probably have much more than those 40 - they just haven't tested enough.

Posted by: vk | Mar 10 2020 11:41 utc | 122

pft 59

"Measles is a good example. In 1963 before vaccines, 400 deaths and 400,000 reported cases. A fatality rate of 1000. However, doctors know that every child got measles during childhood, although most were mild and not reported. So measles infections had to be 4 million a year. This brings the mortality rate to 1/10,000. Big difference."

Thanks for pointing this out.
I have always thought there was something fishy about the stats brought forward to justify measles vacs. In my childhood there was no panic whatsoever when most of the kids in our school came down with measles/mumps/chicken pox at the same time. We were kept home because we were sick.

Posted by: Really?? | Mar 10 2020 11:42 utc | 123

@ all

You should read this:

Western conceit continues to cost lives

Living in denial won't solve anything.

Posted by: vk | Mar 10 2020 12:05 utc | 124

while the haplotype in Iran appears to be the deadliest with a fatality rate of between 10% and 25%. (7) (8) (9)
Posted by: ak74 | Mar 10 2020 7:03 utc | 114

Interesting that your over-enthusiastic conspiracy bias overlooks the most obvious explanation for the initial high death rate of the Iran outbreak.
i.e. Iran only discovered the outbreak when people started dying. So the disease had been running rampant and undetected, in an untested population, for an unknown period of time.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Mar 10 2020 12:15 utc | 125

While cheap oil is supposed to be good for the economy the drop will also cause significant damage in the U.S. financial markets as the whole fracking industry in the United States is laden with debt and is now destined to be wiped out.

Heh, Trump seems to have taken Russia’s intransigence to heart. It is reported that the American president "will not be able" to arrive on May 9 at the Victory Parade in Russia, although he had previously intended to do so.
Poor thing.

Posted by: alaff | Mar 10 2020 12:24 utc | 126


Yeah, measles used to be really deadly, and still is in some places, but only in those who are malnourished and vitamin A deficient. So many of these diseases just fizzled out with better sanitation and nutrition. Polio was an exception but DDT and arsenic containing insecticides/herbicides had something to do with that. Also when the vaccine came out they changed the definition of what was polio, so even without a vaccine polio cases would have dropped . It was a combination of more conservative use of DDT and a different case definition that was mostly responsible for the drop (also removing the financial incentive to diagnose an illness as polio). Not saying the vaccine didn't contribute but based on the Cutter incident and Sv-40 contamination their were casualties.

Posted by: Pft | Mar 10 2020 12:30 utc | 127

About "weapon". Some weapons are blunt and non-precise, atomics for example. Even creating these infernal metals (Pu etc) results in people becoming ill and dying young. Actually using these results in global effects...people are still dying from the first work on this stuff and from the first three the idea that a blunt bioweapon would not be a weapon, or not be used, is just plain silly...Indeed the first people to die from the trinity bomb were Americans, and in the second and third tests there were American POW's murdered by the explosions. Blunt is evidently not a problem.

People say 5 types CV exist in USA alone and this is evidence of origin. Experts say all BSL4 labs leak. This accords with my experiences with radioactive materials when I worked for the US Army. Experts also say that 100% BSL4 labs are weapon labs. If so, then the release may be accidental, but it's a weapon release.

Also weapon releases occur even though the weapon effects are not known, hence nuke-tests 1, in New Mexico, # 2 Hiroshima, and 3 in Nagasaki... In a sense all weapon releases are experimental, even the sniper releasing his bullet is "experimenting", not sure if the target will be damaged or liquidated or perhaps missed.

Wally thinks about General Turgidson's advice>

"Mr. President, we are rapidly approaching a moment of truth both for ourselves as human beings and for the life of our nation. Now, the truth is not always a pleasant thing, but it is necessary now to make a choice, to choose between two admittedly regrettable, but nevertheless, distinguishable post-war environments: one where you got twenty million people killed, and the other where you got a hundred and fifty million people killed."

He's advising a mass nuclear attack on USSR (and China, though not in the script). Mass murder, if you like.

Now, think back to the outrageous threats and utterly offense things the fatboys have said...

Just because we don't like the weapon-effects is not a reason to say it's not a weapon, or an attack...hell, maybe we're part of the target, maybe we're merely "co-latter damage", maybe their fools, I dunno.

Like (Tom?) said, we'll see.

Yeah, soap an' water. I'd bet also a smidgen of bleach might be nice too...


Sorry to read that in Oz the piggies rule, whatever happened.... Man I knew commie kids from the Eastern Block an' they used to steal cars drunk and be in less trouble than you guys over a few cc of alcohol even though you've done nothing wrong.

Posted by: Walter | Mar 10 2020 13:10 utc | 128

For Pete's sake: "last year 37,000 Americans died from the common Flu" No. Last year, in the US, that number of people died of combined pneumonia and possible flu (the vast majority of flu diagnoses are never checked against a lab culture, so huge quantities of flu-like illness are lumped in as flu) because the CDC lumps the categories together in order to promote the CDC's income-generating flu shots. Every person who dies of pneumonia in US, whether they have flu or not, is categorized as a flu death. CDC statistics, like all statistics out of the US federal system, are not just useless, they are fictional.

Posted by: casey | Mar 10 2020 13:19 utc | 129

Posted by: h | Mar 9 2020 18:57 utc | 11

I beg to differ about the US being the only place that has weaponised the virus. The BBC, and the Brit presstitute media in general, has mounted a relentless anti-China propaganda campaign since the outbreak began.

Posted by: C | Mar 10 2020 13:25 utc | 130

I did not ask in my previous post for a summary of China's response. I asked for a summary of the conversational roundtable nested in the video referenced by karlof1, as I am unable to target that specific segment of the video. (I too don't have time to watch the entire thing, which is a political rally it seems.)

I'll repeat my recommendation that chile of some strength depending on personal preference is a good way to help keep the sinuses flowing. You don't want to go to the extremely hot ones as those can damage the stomach lining. Apparently, the serious effects of this virus occur when an upper respiratory infection moves to the lungs. I use my home grown chiles in omelets.

Also as an alternative, apples cooked in olive oil, then home baked bread (organic flour) soaked in organic grassfed milk added to the apples, topped with honey. The honey carmelizes so apples can be the sour granny smith ones. Preferably organic, but if those aren't available, peel the apples. It's pollen season so honey on a spoon helps with the upper respiratory discomfort, and might also counter the virus somewhat. ( Not a fact, just supposition. As they say, it can't hurt, which applies to the other above suggestions also. You are what you eat.)

I know honey's expensive, and I function at subsistence level; but I consider bees are having a hard time so I am supporting them when I buy it. Still waiting to see some in my garden this year.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 10 2020 13:29 utc | 131

I don't believe that the COVID-19 has or will cause the economic correction. The vast malinvestments caused by the central banks will be the cause. This panic fed by the latest "pandemic" may be a trigger, but only that.

Posted by: Greenbean950 | Mar 10 2020 13:42 utc | 132

@ Posted by: Greenbean950 | Mar 10 2020 13:42 utc | 132

Yeah - but you hesitated for one day to post that (had to wait if the "markets" would rebound).

Both the oil price war and the COVID-19 are just mounting factors, not the underlying factor. Capitalism is already at a bad shape, so every bad news is very bad news.

The concept of "correction" never made any sense to me. Either the market is the perfect system that self-regulates as the neoclasssics say it is or it isn't: there's no middle term (even though the Keynesians like to rape logic with their alleged "third way" narrative, which basically means the market is not self-regulating). If the market needs correction, then it is obviously not self-regulating; needless to say the term "self-correction" is a contradiction in terms: if you can self-correct yourself, then you're self-regulating by definition, so the term is useless.

The only sense I can see in the concept of "correction" (or self-correction, for that matter) is political-ideological: by using the term, you're clearly either (ideologically) stating capitalism is natural (as is it is a law of physics, an eternal truth) or you're betting capitalism will survive the crisis and pass through the cycle intact (a political stance).

I don't agree with the Austrian concept of "malinvestment" either. It simply doesn't make any sense outside the realm of pure ideology. The concept becomes even more absurd when you take into account the Austrians use the term basically to state Central Banks are an alien force of capitalism. Not only it isn't, but without central banks, there's simply no fiat currency.

Posted by: vk | Mar 10 2020 13:57 utc | 133

blues 110

Very sensible.
I am annoyed at the casual smearing of Dr. Joseph Mercola on another thread.
At his site he publishes the following statement (in part):
"Disclaimer: The entire contents of this website are based upon the opinions of Dr. Mercola, unless otherwise noted. Individual articles are based upon the opinions of the respective author, who retains copyright as marked. The information on this website is not intended to replace a one-on-one relationship with a qualified health care professional and is not intended as medical advice. It is intended as a sharing of knowledge and information from the research and experience of Dr. Mercola and his community. Dr. Mercola encourages you to make your own health care decisions based upon your research and in partnership with a qualified health care professional."

This site, too, reflects the opinions of the site's owner.

Today Dr. Mercola publishes some info that aligns with Pft's contribution concerning original antigen sin, "Six of 10 Vaccines Studied Increase Mortality."

That is, not mortality from the target disease but from other diseases.
It is a long and detailed article. Many of the comments are also worth reading.

It beats me how anyone with an inquiring mind and a strong survival instinct can *reflexively* consume any medical rules coming out of Big Medicine, Big Pharma, and Big Food.

I'm sure many recall how confidently we were informed that butter is bad and margarine is good; that milk is bad and soy is good, not to mention that soy can replace breast milk; ad infinitum. I'll say no more. The implications are obvious for those who can think logically.

Posted by: Really?? | Mar 10 2020 14:24 utc | 134


Quercetin is widely available in fruits and vegetables as a bioavailable glucoside:

Quercetin supplements are derived from Sophora Japonica,

Posted by: krollchem | Mar 10 2020 14:28 utc | 135

ak74 | Mar 10 2020 7:03 utc | 114 (origin usa your links)

The implications from the links seem to credibly say release # 1 @ F Detrick with a coverup. The initial release. Since FD is a weapon lab it's a release of a weapon? Yeah, possibly not a finished product though, just a fubar, or not? Since they closed the lab one might assume they've no further use for the place, or that closing was part of a coverup and they plan to re-open. Whether deliberate or accidental, well, we have come close to (and are at risk of) accidental nuclear war from accidental release of nukebombs...would it matter?

Your> "China’s Coronavirus: A Shocking Update. Did The Virus Originate in the US?" is heavy.

I'd say that the campaign to blame Chin is deflection, deception, distraction, and bs. Typical...there's no JFK to stand up on TV and say "I'm president, ultimately it's my responsibility...". Of course they'll use every propaganda mechanism to escape responsibility...

Posted by: Walter | Mar 10 2020 14:31 utc | 136

"It beats me how anyone with an inquiring mind and a strong survival instinct can *reflexively* consume any medical rules coming out of Big Medicine, Big Pharma, and Big Food."

Great point. For details see Dr. Mark Hyman book Food Fix.

Dr. Hyman echoes Dr. Lustig's book The Hacking of the American Mind

Posted by: krollchem | Mar 10 2020 14:41 utc | 137

Posted by: JC | Mar 10 2020 2:33 utc | 99

My posting above.... Brother Nathaniel confirm my long suspicion of Bennis Sanders... "Deal of the Century" Dem blah!

or here:

Posted by: JC | Mar 10 2020 14:43 utc | 138

reply to 73
Thank you, that is helpful,the ZH poster didn't expand on his comment which was made two days ago.

Posted by: frances | Mar 10 2020 15:21 utc | 139

The reason such states as Norway, The Netherlands and Switzerland have many registered cases relative to population size is threefold:
(1) They have each an efficient health and registration system (and at least in Norway very nearly cost free doctor's fees and completely free hospitalisation)
(2) Their economies are rather sturdy with an average high income for the great majority
(3) Thus, there is much winter tourism to places like Italy -- especially skiing tourism from Switzerland and Norway to northern Italy, where most cases contracted their mirii, and none in Norway have dead as yet.

Posted by: Oū Sī / 區司/ Usman | Mar 10 2020 15:43 utc | 140

The original article about coronavirus in the air, quoting a peer-reviewed study in the journal Practical Preventive Medicine:

South China Morning Post.

The article states the peer-reviewed study was withdrawn by the journal, no other explanation given:

Note: The study at the centre of this article on the transmission of the coronavirus was retracted on Tuesday by the journal Practical Preventive Medicine without giving a reason. The South China Morning Post has reached out to the paper's authors and will update the article.

The coronavirus that causes Covid-19 can linger in the air for at least 30 minutes and travel up to 4.5 metres – further than the “safe distance” advised by health authorities around the world, according to a study by a team of Chinese government epidemiologists.

The researchers also found that it can last for days on a surface where respiratory droplets land, raising the risk of transmission if unsuspecting people touch it and then rub their face.

Posted by: jonku | Mar 10 2020 15:47 utc | 141

@frances #139
You're welcome.
My personal view: ZH is very, very low credibility.
It isn't 100% wrong, but I have found the wheat to chaff ratio there to be far too low to bother.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 10 2020 15:47 utc | 142

@Really?? #134
No, Mercola has been clearly documented funneling millions of dollars to the anti-vax movement.
His credibility is very much exactly what it should be: low.
His funding, the likely largest single donor, has turned a niche group into a major internet force. It is very possible, even likely, that his internet marketing expertise was also extended to said anti-vax groups.
What is particularly sad is the playbook being used isn't even original: ad hominem attacks on any who dare criticize the anti-vax line coupled with "look over there" at the profits of vaccine companies.
This is particularly ironic given Mercola was caught doing exactly what the anti-vaxxers accuse the vaccine companies of doing: promoting practices which benefit their own bottom line.
But I shouldn't be surprised that people consider their own pet causes as noble and opposing causes as evil.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 10 2020 15:53 utc | 143

Also for Norway:
(4) Very little snow in the lowland parts of Norway lying south of the Arctic Circle this winter -- once again unlike central and northern Sweden and all of Finland -- and typically also Iceland, where everybody would want to the warmer climes of Europe and Asia during their 9-month lurid winter.

Posted by: Oū Sī / 區司/ Usman | Mar 10 2020 15:54 utc | 144

@Pft #59
It is interesting that you keep leaving out the numbers of hospitalizations associated with the measles data point you keep repeating.
nCOV isn't extremely dangerous from a guaranteed decimation of the population perspective, it is dangerous because 20% of infected require hospitalization.
If the 20% don't get the respirator support, then decimation can occur (10% dead or more). In the US, there's the extra bonus of the respirator/ICU support being a life-changing financial event for a lot of people.

Here's what the CDC says about measles in 1963: CDC Measles presentation

Close to 500,000 cases were reported annually to CDC, resulting in:
-48,000 hospitalizations
-1,000 cases with encephalitis (brain swelling)
-400 to 500 deaths

So your deaths number is somewhat accurate, if downplayed, but 500K cases of measles, 48,000 hospitalizations and 1000 cases of brain swelling = damage, if not death?
Well, that's certainly nothing to worry about.../sarc

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 10 2020 16:04 utc | 145

reply to Posted by: james | Mar 10 2020 2:21 utc | 97
Hi James, yes, Jim did mention that fellow earlier on, but he now believes it was deliberately created at Ft Derrick. Which was shut down by the way suddenly several months ago by the CDC for failure to contain pathogens related issues.

He believes it is a bio weapon, being deliberately used to reduce populations, weaken govts and usher in global govt. Why this and why now? He believes that Russia's new weaponry as well as Iran's ballistic missile arsenal have taken off the table the West's planned "limited nuclear war" against Russia (and Iran) that was to be held in Iran and central Europe. That was to be followed by plague blamed on the war. No war,so they are running with a plague instead. Is he right? No idea.

There is some info on his background on the site that would to me justify his sources and observations. I am inclined to believe his reports but I read everything on a subject that I can. I leave it to others to decide who has the crystal ball on this gem.

Posted by: frances | Mar 10 2020 16:13 utc | 146

- The US is meddling with the socalled "NordStream 2" and pushing oil prices lower simply is a retaliation from Russia against the US.

Posted by: Willy2 | Mar 10 2020 16:16 utc | 147

Posted by: Pft | Mar 10 2020 12:30 utc | 127

Despite mass vaccination in Germany in 2019 measles ARE BACK !!!!

Measles erupted in the Neuwied district

Use Google Translate

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 10 2020 16:34 utc | 148

@146 frances... thanks for the additional insights frances.. i appreciate it... james

Posted by: james | Mar 10 2020 16:34 utc | 149

No need to worry about the corona virus - it'll all be okay as long as you buy enough toilet roll...

Nothing speaks more loudly of the dumbed down, idiotic, Fakebook groupthink of the age than the current rush to buy toilet roll as a response to the Coronavirus crisis.

You’ve seen it on the tele and (un)social media – supermarket shelves denuded of bog roll and fat birds beating seven shades of sh*t out of each other over the last bag of ass wipe.

I mean, what the hell!? Is this how stupid and pathetic we’ve become? Someone sees a post on Fakebook that says its a good idea to respond to a potentially fatal virus by buying lots of bog roll and within 5 minutes there’s a massive rush on the stuff – after all, you gotta buy it, right, COS IT SAYS SO ON FAKEBOOK...

Posted by: Richard | Mar 10 2020 16:40 utc | 150

@Tom_LX #148
The anti-vax movement is very strong in Germany - strong enough that the government passed both mandatory vaccination laws, including fines, in 2019: source

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 10 2020 16:42 utc | 151

reply to Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 10 2020 6:55 utc | 113
I am considering my father's time honored recipe for hand or any utensil sanitizer in the absence of alternatives: 80 proof vodka:)
Just pop a hand pump dispenser in the top and voila!
He swore by it anyway.

Posted by: frances | Mar 10 2020 16:58 utc | 152

Statistic of the day: Italy has only 5,000 "intensive care beds" for a population of 60 millions.
Thanks to the EU!

Posted by: Mina | Mar 10 2020 17:02 utc | 153

I wonder if China had a longstanding ‘policy and procedures’ plan in place for any possible leaks from the Wuhan bio facility. Regardless of the source of the virus, it may have helped for the response to have been so organized and successful...
I found the YouTube video by the Russian blogger who visited a Russian couple in Wuhan to be a very worthwhile watch. Thank you to the person who posted that link on a previous coV thread...

Re quercetin, one of my favourite herbal books (green pharmacy by James A.Duke) says this:
“Onion is one of the best sources of quercetin....when you make stews and soups, leave the onion skin on to allow as much quercetin as possible to make it’s way into the food. Discard the skin before serving the dish”
(Note, I cut the onion into halves or smaller to ensure that there is no mould, )

Posted by: bluemot5 | Mar 10 2020 17:04 utc | 154

reply to Posted by: alaff | Mar 10 2020 12:24 utc | 126

I don't think Trump was ever going to attend for if he did it would be really super awkward. As NATO is about to run its largest war games since the end of the cold war if not ever, on Russia's borders starting the day of the Parade. The war game they will play? An attack on Russia. I believe the US already has sent 20,000 troops to the area to get the game set up.
Still think this "virus" is not a bio weapon folks?

Posted by: frances | Mar 10 2020 17:07 utc | 155

Here's a plug for medicinal mushrooms: turkey tail, artist's conk, reishi, maitake (hen of the woods), shiitake, oyster, chicken of the woods. Lots of good instructions online, paul stamets is probably the most well known, he's rich by now but has been studying, foraging and growing them since mid 70s.
Virtually everyone has access to turkey tail above texas latitudes where there is forest, parks, river/creek banks with trees.Start learning now: forage, make tea. drink every day. boost your immune system to fight viruses, bacterial infections, tumors (cancer, etc). Always boil or bake between 200-300F. Water tea is easiest since the boil temp (212f) is easy to monitor and you don't go over 300F which destroys good stuff.
Don't eat raw.

Posted by: migueljose | Mar 10 2020 17:14 utc | 156

So possibly, most of the cases they had/have came from Italian tourists and others who came through Israel (lots of Christian groups do "holy land + holy places in Egypt")

Posted by: Mina | Mar 10 2020 17:30 utc | 157

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 10 2020 16:42 utc | 151
My comment went into outer reaches of the Universe and disappeared. Here I go again.

The proportion of children who had received the two planned measles vaccinations was only 78.9 percent, according to the report by Barmer.

Meanwhile, the measles vaccination rate among Barmer insured six-year-old children born in Germany in 2011 was 88.8 percent, the report showed.


A glance at vaccination rates in Germany provides little immediate evidence as to why this is the case. The most recent report issued by the Robert Koch Institute, Germany’s highest epidemiology authority, showed that German children entering primary school have a very respectable vaccination rate of around 93 percent. This is almost enough to achieve the form of indirect protection referred to as “herd immunity,” which would protect non-vaccinated individuals from getting the measles. However, Germany’s otherwise fine record is cluttered with a number of local and age-related gaps.


Posted by: Richard | Mar 10 2020 16:40 utc | 150
These dummies should invest in this,

no more toilet paper

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 10 2020 17:37 utc | 158

Coronavirus and the collapse of economic systems as dangerous second order effects

Dr. John Campbell has quite a few youtube videos on coronavirus such as this hygiene video “Q and A with self isolation”

and Vitamin D and immunity (remember vitamin K2 for Calcium balance)

and update of symptoms lack of containment and outcomes due to a lack of reactivity and proactivity.

and today’s depressing research update

Remember that warming in the northern hemisphere corresponds with cooling in the southern hemisphere may result in a shift of the outbreak to the southern hemisphere…

Posted by: Krollchem | Mar 10 2020 18:15 utc | 159

Again as I wrote at the outset of the COVID-19 saga, the unseen world has always been humanity's greatest enemy. The stories generated to explain the attacks over millennia are almost as fantastical as they're delusional since the unseen world was never really imagined until it was proven to exist. The long ago result was societies devoted various levels of resources to fighting the plagues caused by the unseen world's attacks. Few today appreciate the marvelous wonderment generated by the institution of sanitation and what's known as the Germ Theory of Disease, which was first postulated by a Persian @1020, that rivaled Miasma Theory, which remained the popular mode of explanation in Europe and its extremities until the rise of Bacteriology @1870, which makes our outlook on diseases very modern and still not completely understood as with prions. Clearly, China, and Asia more widely, has its own longstanding history in dealing with plagues, and the regions population is testament to its success in dealing with such outbreaks versus Europe. But having more people means outbreaks can spread more rapidly, thus the need for societies to accept what appear to be more draconian measures to deal with them. Perhaps even more important is the realization by elites that they're just as vulnerable to becoming infected as the overall society, and it is thus in their interests to act as quickly and responsibly as possible to quarantine to minimize the outbreak's extent--a lesson Western elites seem to have forgotten or simply ignore thanks to their exceptional ideology.

IMO, it doesn't matter if COVID-19 is natural or a bioweapon, for as Walter ably wrote they're too unwieldy to be totally contained by us imperfect humans. What matters is our ability to defeat it, and that requires the strongest possible defense deployed through several systems--Universal Healthcare, Sanitation, Food and Drug Inspection, and Education. Naturally, nations with outstanding systems will be the most resilient, resistant and capable of neutralizing the outbreak; while those with weak or non-existent systems will suffer the consequences of their society's choices. At the panel discussion organized by Sanders I linked to yesterday, Nurse Deborah Burger asked:

"How insane and cruel is it to suggest that we have to figure out how to pay for it [vaccine] when we can actually go to war and not ask one question, but to prevent this kind of a disease, we have to say, 'How can we pay for it?'" [My Emphasis]

At that discussion, Sanders weighed in as follows:

"'Do I approve of [the U.S. government] spending a few cents for a vaccine rather than seeing people die or spending thousands of dollars on hospital care? Yeah, I kinda think it makes a little bit more sense to invest a few cents in a vaccine.'"

"'Does anybody in their right mind believe that if you're rich you should be able to afford a vaccine and save your life but if you're poor you gotta die?'" Sanders asked. "'Is that really where we're at in the United States of America?'" [My Emphasis]

Sanders hammers down the nail for he just explained the deadly truth about the socio-economic system of the Outlaw US Empire where the elite DO Believe what I bolded above, which is why China's actions are bashed but can't in any manner be implemented because the Empire lacks the sophisticated Systems I noted above to emulate China's success in defeating COVID-19.

Clearly, the Enlightened People live in Asia while those still living in the Dark Ages reside in the West. And that disparity will continue to widen until the peoples of the West rise up to oust their rulers imposing Neoliberal Debt-Peonage on them and deny them political Liberty.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 10 2020 18:20 utc | 160

New German research indicates that the virus spreads asymptomatically via respiration. What that means is breathing the air near an infected person, who, shows no symptoms, is not couching, sneezing or wheezing and has no temperature. Feels fine. No symptoms. Just breathing the air. As they say in the paper, if these results are replicated, it renders the WHO goal of reduced transmission "challenging." In other word impossible. In my view the only people who have a rational response to this are the Japanese. They came out and said, pretty much everyone is going to get it. It's not a really a concern unless you are very old or in ill health to begin with. They also said do not seek medical attention unless you have a fever greater than 101 F for more than 48 consecutive hours (24 hours for pregnant women). Control the fever with alternating doses of acetaminophen and Ibuprofen. That's it. That's their policy. In other words don't clog the healthcare system because you're a ninny. But apparently that's to stern a message for western audiences. The whole thing is ridiculous. How much societal damage are you willing to do just so a small group of people greater than 80 years old with ill health live another year or two before whatever else it is gets them? It's a virus. This is what viruses do. Cull the overgrown herd. The panic and political response in many western countries is more damaging than the disease.

Posted by: Paul Bogdanich | Mar 10 2020 19:18 utc | 161

C1ue is here so the messaging does not get out of control wrt to vaccine choice.

When his arguments fall apart, he merely retorts: "Well, change the laws to backoff mandated vaccines, then."

Ummm...excuse me, sir, that is what we are doing here on MoA, trying to reach as many people as possible with the truth and science to back it up.

I will ask you then, C1ue, are you willing to admit that just as with the MIC in this country, there is a Meidical Industrial Complex just as well that is the bane of the wellbeing of the average citizen and upstanding Doctors who practice wholeheartedly what the Hippocratic Oath they swear by informs them?

Will you admit that there could be the potential of an incestuous conflict of interest between vaccine makers, like Merck, and the CDC?

Will you address this?

Will you honestly address the notion that when the vaccine for measles first emerged in 1963, mortality rates and complications from disease had plummeted already so much that...and this is important, that if there were no measles vaccine, the holistic way of treating measles in the West might have brought us to the same current statistics of measles complications that we have today?

In other words, will you admit to the possibility that if the measles vaccine had never existed, it is well within reason to assume that we might be in the same boat today, probably better with superior natural immunity, as with the so-called "effects" of the vaccine?

Take a look at THIS graph of measles mortality in this country pre-vaccine, and tell me that we weren't well on our way towards conquering the scourge naturally?

(But even if this weren't the case, it is indeed as pft maintains that by 1963, measles was in many ways, a diminished threat)

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Mar 10 2020 19:21 utc | 162

@ willy2 | Mar 10 2020 16:16 utc | 147

Russia Just Told the World, "No."
byTom Luongo 3-6-20

I'm sure you'll be interested in this -- it's a pretty complete description of exactly what Russia's doing, and to whom, and why.

Posted by: AntiSpin | Mar 10 2020 19:53 utc | 163

Paul Bogdanich
Well, if "there's no way to stop it and we're all going to catch it soon", then Chinese numbers wouldn't be ridiculously low now, and they'd be burying people by the thousands on a daily basis.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Mar 10 2020 20:06 utc | 164

But I shouldn't be surprised that people consider their own pet causes as noble and opposing causes as evil.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 10 2020 15:53 utc | 143

Documentation, please.

And while you're at it, why don't you drop the ad hominems and just debate what is actually written.
Without ladling on gobs of snark and broadcasting further invidious assumptions about a poster's mental state, religious views, etc.
I wonder why you choose me to attack, and not others who post in a similar vein.

Posted by: really?? | Mar 10 2020 20:18 utc | 165

This Week in Virology Podcast
Highly recommended, very informative and trustworthy.

Posted by: Jacek | Mar 10 2020 20:21 utc | 166

Regarding: "The price war in the crude oil markets which Russia initiated did not cause today's stock market fall but it also did not help."

Russia did not initiate any price war.

US market share has risen from under 9% to over 17% in the period 2008-2020, mainly because of the US sanctions against Iran and Venezuela and disruptions in Libya and Nigeria.

Saudi and Russia market shares have held steady in this period.

Russia proposed at OPEC meeting in Vienna last week to keep production steady, but Saudi has since decided to increase production.

Posted by: Roland Heymanns | Mar 10 2020 20:23 utc | 167

Nemesiscalling 161
"C1ue is here so the messaging does not get out of control wrt to vaccine choice. "

Ah, so that's it.
Maybe she is a lobbyist or attorney for Big Med.
That would explain some portion of the grape shot.

Posted by: Really?? | Mar 10 2020 20:46 utc | 168

Posted by: AntiSpin | Mar 10 2020 19:53 utc | 162

So the theory of the article you linked is that Russia is making/trying now to the Amercian regime + KSA regime what KSA + USA made to him in the endo of the 80's that collapsed the soviet economy and produce the end of the Soviet Union.

But to be the global reserve currency is a huge and exhorbitant privilege, it is a real tax to the rest of the world and it is a wealth pump that make people send their savings to the USA in bad times (in the form of treasury notes and similar), that's the way USA can bailout the frackers if required, USSR could not do that, they did not have a similar global wealth pump, to the contrary, the USSR to sustain their geostrategic goals sustained with raw mats a lot of countries as Cuba and others, that sufferd a lot when Soviet Union implodes.

The end of the US Empire could only happens by an internal revolt (civil war or similar)

Posted by: DFC | Mar 10 2020 21:15 utc | 169

So Joe Biden is going to win the election automatically? Please can I be spared all those election ads beginning now? Medicare for all was just the final destination for the Rockefeller health care scheme devised over a hundred years ago. The supply of every facet of healthcare was always intended to be limited and expensive. So enjoy Biden's open borders, or maybe Bernie's healthcare for all illegals. The lines will be spectacular. Finally Trump is likely soon to become a mere millionaire, so be kind... or not.

Posted by: Old and Grumpy | Mar 10 2020 21:33 utc | 170

The falling of the market is the result of a crisi of confidence...The effect of so called "Animal Spirits"....

Russia did not start all this.

We must remember that the fall in the price of Brent oil began after the US assassination in Iraq of Iranian General Soleimani...

Thus before Trump and his minions blame Russia for this, take into account that what can not be is that the price is lowered by terrorist activity by the US in the ME, and then they are the only ones who can push porduction of their fracking brand. Russia will be imbecile if, besides the harsh sanctions impossed on them by the US, plus all the trips they are coping with respect visas, bad intentions in Syria and so on, they will cause prejudice to their own country to the effect of benefitting the US.

To pretend that, in certain European locations, is called, being the wore and morevoer providing the bed...Not with a superpower ruled by sane intelligent people who care a bit about their nation/nationals....Of course, that could well happen in Europe, in case any European country would be an oil fact it happens all the time with other markets...

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 10 2020 23:12 utc | 171

@6 and @43

Research T2 lung receptor, something Asians have and most others do not, and is a major factor in lung ingections from such a virus uncluding MERS.

Posted by: Island life | Mar 11 2020 0:58 utc | 172

A word on seasonality: A component (perhaps the major one) of influenza virus seasonality is bird migration. Human influenza infects birds and vice versa. Birds are seasonally migratory, and not entirely north-south either, since avian flyways travel east-west to avoid the Himalayas.

This is unrelated to any direct effect of temperature on the virus.

Anything that flies is a very agile reservoir for viruses. The proof is in: Birds. The proof is in: Bats. The proof is in: Insects. Of these, bats are the closest to us. But they are not seasonal as far as I know.

- Regards, Shyaku

Posted by: Shyaku | Mar 11 2020 2:56 utc | 173

Long discussion tracking the much of the US coronavirus epidemic across the US to the recent CPAP and AIPAC meetings...

Posted by: Krollchem | Mar 11 2020 3:41 utc | 174


Don't vaccines need to be administered prior to infection to be effective?

For information, here is the link on all vaccines being tested for the coronavirus epidemic as part of the Universal Influenza Vaccine Technology Landscape

Posted by: krollchem | Mar 11 2020 4:48 utc | 175

Recent findings indicate that the SARS-CoV2 sheds from affected tissues for up to 37 days. PLAN ACCORDINGLY.

See also previous #173 on how the CPAP and AIPAC conferences were attended by people who potentially spread the virus to most senior politicians in the US as well as throughout the US. What happens if someone is asymptomatic but shedding virus' for up to 37 days?

Posted by: Krollchem | Mar 11 2020 4:55 utc | 176

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 10 2020 16:42 utc | 151
My comment went into outer reaches of the Universe and disappeared. Here I go again.

The proportion of children who had received the two planned measles vaccinations was only 78.9 percent, according to the report by Barmer.

Meanwhile, the measles vaccination rate among Barmer insured six-year-old children born in Germany in 2011 was 88.8 percent, the report showed.


A glance at vaccination rates in Germany provides little immediate evidence as to why this is the case. The most recent report issued by the Robert Koch Institute, Germany’s highest epidemiology authority, showed that German children entering primary school have a very respectable vaccination rate of around 93 percent. This is almost enough to achieve the form of indirect protection referred to as “herd immunity,” which would protect non-vaccinated individuals from getting the measles. However, Germany’s otherwise fine record is cluttered with a number of local and age-related gaps.

link to article

Posted by: Richard | Mar 10 2020 16:40 utc | 150
These panicers should invest in this,

no more toilet paper

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 11 2020 9:36 utc | 177

@Frances 26

The link you provide definitely freaked me out...

Posted by: AlanB | Mar 11 2020 13:29 utc | 178

: karlof1 | Mar 10 2020 18:20 utc | 160

Indeed! So! What you said!

Posted by: Walter | Mar 11 2020 13:44 utc | 179

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 11 2020 9:36 utc | 177

Looks like the disinfectant worked but I don't know what it was. Ha ha ha ...

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 11 2020 15:08 utc | 180

By January of 2017, Lanka had won a court case in the German Federal Supreme Court regarding the measles “virus”. Lanka had offered €100,000 for scientific proof for the existence of the alleged measles virus. A plaintiff then sued Lanka for what he felt was proof of such a virus. But five experts who looked at the case found that none of the publications introduced into trial contained scientific proof for the existence of the measles virus. So Lanka won the case [4]. Lanka maintains that by prophylactic vaccination of adults and especially children against measles, the pharmaceutical industry has earned billions over a 40-year period. The judges at the German Federal Supreme Court (BGH) confirmed in a recent ruling that the measles virus does not exist. To the experts involved in that case, there seemed not to be a single scientific study in the world which so far proved the existence of such a measles virus. This raised the question of what was actually injected into millions of German citizens over the past decades. According to the judgment by the Su-preme Court and its expert panel, it may not have been a vaccine against measles. Also, with regard to the influenza virus itself, Dr. Lanka had this to say [5]

Link to paper
Questions about Covid-19

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 11 2020 16:07 utc | 181

@Nemesiscalling #162
You do realize that you're parroting Trump's line, right?
That nCOV (measles) is a nothingburger.

The reason you vaccinate (and test, and quarantine) is to reduce the impact on the health system - a breakdown of which kills more people both directly and indirectly.

Anti-vaxxers = Trump response to nCOV.

I look forward to your response.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 11 2020 20:05 utc | 182

If the price of crude drops to $30 / barrel, that will give Iran much more leverage against the U.S.

Here's the reasoning: $30/barrel, if prolonged, will destroy the U.S. frackers. Hence the U.S will be forced to import more oil from the Middle East. Much of this oil will have to pass the Strait of Hormuz, which means the tankers will be vulnerable to Iranian missiles. If Iranians are attacked, therefore, they can wreck not only the Euro poodles but also the Imperial Nation now.

Canada's tar sands won't rescue the U.S. Alberta's oil patch needs prices in the mid-$40s to break even.

Conclusion: Iran will have a lot of leverage.

Posted by: Cyril | Mar 11 2020 20:26 utc | 183

@182 C1ue

I am fine with the odd pandemic here and there. Seems rather natural to me.

I do believe in tackling problems holistically. If China is indeed on its way towards overcoming this scourge, it is undeniable proof that deadly disease can be mitigated without the use of vaccines and through planning and information. These are solutions without the element of profit, the foresaking of liberty of choice, and the outright dismissal of the double-blind placebo test for safety and efficacy (this entails nearly 100% of vaccines) which makes up the bedrock of modern medicine and its intervention and application.

I see you failed to address any of my topics or studies published so I won't waste anymore time on trying to win over such shillish-behavior.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Mar 12 2020 5:10 utc | 184

Tom_LX #181

Thank YOU Tom_LX. That was some mighty interesting material. Digesting that will take a moment but thank goodness for heresy and its believers.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 12 2020 7:18 utc | 185

Tom_LX #177

Responding to Posted by: Richard | Mar 10 2020 16:40 utc | 150
These panicers should invest in this,

[Link} no more toilet paper

What is that spray doing on the handbasin? It should be next to the crapper. Maybe they are being polite. But they are the way to go.

I first encountered them in Indonesia and they are widespread and contribute to public hygiene to a large degree. You realise that toilet paper is horrid once you use a bidet spray. I installed one immediately on return years ago. Gave up paper and dry with a handcloth and into the washer each day.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 12 2020 7:33 utc | 186

In one of the larger hospitals I work, around the DC Tri-state are, they are only allocated FIVE testing kits, which they reserve for the sick pts. Emergency room physicians review most of the patients, “find out that they are not at risk”, considering no one has travelled within the prior 2 weeks not had contact with people from endemic region and send them home. They do discuss their cases with HHS epidemiologist, if the pts are seen between 8 am to 5 pm as there is no one on call in our “advancest-organized exceptionalest country with modernest stablest genius medicine”. My ER colleagues don’t think it is appropriate but when one doesn’t have the resources, once can not do anything else.

Posted by: Amir | Mar 12 2020 12:38 utc | 187

Recently Keiser Report interviewed a cat who said> "..he said that could possibly be the case is that negative rates were predicting a mass decline and population a mass extinction sort of event he didn't know whether it was going..." You get the idea. To-day KR # 1513 discuss the situation and recall that negative interest rates "say" that the Future has no value... (drum roll please).

Posted by: Walter | Mar 12 2020 12:47 utc | 188

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 12 2020 7:33 utc | 186

I have that setup but it is right next to the crapper. The hand cloth idea is exactly what I do. I don't miss the paper for a second. :-)

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 12 2020 14:16 utc | 189

B appears to overlook the many questions that this supposed pandemic raises before anyone freaks out. Does the virus actually cause harm. Is there even a virus at all. Can you trust the organisations doing the reporting. Are the tests accurate etc etc.

Anyone who hasn't found Jon rapaport should go read his blog before they start freaking out.

Posted by: Ross | Mar 12 2020 15:54 utc | 190

Es ist so ekelerregend, Ihre kommunistischen Ergüsse zu lesen.
Dass Sie Leserschaft finden, ist Zeugnis dafür, die Menschheit ist verloren. Ich empfinde nur Verachtung für Leute wie Sie. Solche Gutmenschen wie Sie haben uns Millionen von Routen beschert.

Posted by: Fauvi | Mar 13 2020 22:56 utc | 191

Fauvi | Mar 13 2020 22:56 utc | 191

A political subculture in which „good human“ is a strong pejorative evaluation should not claim anything more than praise the fact that it is not abolished by force. It was a right decision not to kill all leftover Nazis, too many, but the reward should be that they keep their mouth shut forever.
In Germany the political right holds power since 1848. Look where in Europe people performed German culture and where they do it today. Then you will understand why the only evaluation of the German right is the term Vaterlandsverkleinerer. - In this very moment they use any dirty trick to suck honey out of Corona for their (alt-) right dumbness. Shame on you. Curious: how old are you? My assumption: either below 18 or above 70. It's not only Corona, you know?

Posted by: Hausmeister | Mar 14 2020 8:58 utc | 192

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