Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 09, 2020

Why Is The Coronavirus More Dangerous Than The Flu?

Today the financial markets finally recognized the economic damage the novel Coronavirus will cause.

The price war in the crude oil markets which Russia initiated did not cause today's stock market fall but it also did not help. While cheap oil is supposed to be good for the economy the drop will also cause significant damage in the U.S. financial markets as the whole fracking industry in the United States is laden with debt and is now destined to be wiped out. Expect crude prices to sink to $20 per barrel as frantic overproduction and a drop in demand due to the virus coincide. Russia is well positioned to win this price war. Others are not.

It is the virus pandemic that causes the downturn in stock markets. But what makes the Sars-CoV-2 virus, as the novel Coronavirus is now officially known, so dangerous? The Covid-19 disease the virus causes is basically a flu like disease but one of a way more severe kind.

And it is a totally NEW kind of 'flu' and that makes all the difference.

Each year some 15% of the world population will be infected with one or more of the dozens of flu viruses we know. The people get ill and most will recover while they also develop some immunity against the specific virus they were infected with. Over the years this sums up to a basic immunity level within our societies. So many people already had a flu from the well known viruses that most of them will not get infected during another flu season. We have also developed vaccines against the most well known viruses. They help to keep the people who work in health care on their job even when many new flu patients come in.

But when a new viruses evolves everything is different. Our societies do not have a basic immunity against a new virus. Without countermeasures many more people will get sick during the first, second and third wave of a new virus onslaught than during a normal flu season. Health care staff will also get infected and must quarantine itself. Some health care workers will probably die. Hospitals will become overwhelmed and the health care system will break down just as it did in Wuhan, China. The breakdown of the health care system also leads to a much larger number of virus death than under a working health care system.

Here is a surgeon in Bergamo, Italy, describing such a situation:

The cases multiply, up to a rate of 15-20 hospitalizations a day all for the same reason. The results of the swabs now come one after the other: positive, positive, positive. Suddenly the emergency room is collapsing. Emergency provisions are issued: help is needed in the emergency room. A quick meeting to learn how the to use to emergency room EHR and a few minutes later I'm already downstairs, next to the warriors on the war front. The screen of the PC with the chief complaint is always the same: fever and respiratory difficulty, fever and cough, respiratory insufficiency etc ... Exams, radiology always with the same sentence: bilateral interstitial pneumonia. All needs to be hospitalized. Some already need to be intubated, and go to the ICU. For others, however, it is late. ICU is full, and when ICUs are full, more are created. Each ventilator is like gold: those in the operating rooms that have now suspended their non-urgent activity are used and the OR become an ICU that did not exist before.

The current case fatality rate in Lombardy has now topped 6%. We know from China (ex Hubei province) that in a functioning health care system the death rate of Covid-19 patients is lower than 1%. It is not the virus that kills more people in Italy, it is an overwhelmed health care system.

A health care system that is overwhelmed with Covid-19 cases can also no longer take care of regular cases. People with an acute heart attack, with diabetes problems, or kids who have fallen off a bicycle will find that the hospitals are full and unable to care for them.

The only way to prevent such a catastrophic development is to spread out the timeline during which the epidemic happens.


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We can do that by lowering the reproductive number of the disease. Under normal circumstance one sick person will infect two, three or even many more healthy ones. We can lower that number by prohibiting large congregations, by isolating infected persons and by good hygiene.

People who test positive or show symptoms need to be quarantined. Everyone needs to be made aware of the dangers and learn how to avoid them. Washing ones hands helps as soap easily destroys the fatty lipid layer that forms the skin of the virus.

The control measures China took in Wuhan were designed to drive the reproduction numbers down.

The effective reproductive number [in Wuhan] dropped from 3.86 before interventions to 0.32 post interventions.

Some of the measures China took were severe but they worked:

The daily Covid-19 onset and the control measures across different periods

Source: Evolving Epidemiology and Impact of Non-pharmaceutical Interventions
on the Outbreak of Coronavirus Disease 2019 in Wuhan, China
(pdf)
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South Korea has also demonstrated how quick and decisive action can keep the numbers manageable.

After the virus has passed through our societies in two or three slow waves our communities will have developed a sufficient basic immunity level. In a year or two we may even have a vaccine against it. The virus will then become a relatively harmless addition to the ones we already know.

An example for this is the Hong Kong flu of 1968. The then new H3H2 virus infected 500.000 Hong Kong residents. In 1968 and 1969 it killed more than a million people worldwide even though it had a death rate below 0.5%. Our populations are now largely immune to it and an H3H2 vaccine is now part of the general cocktail of a flu vaccination.

No country will be spared by this virus and the impact will be similar everywhere.


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What must be done now is to flatten the curves, to lower the number of Covid-19 infections so our health care systems can cope with the epidemic.

In the United States the Sars-CoV-2 epidemic is still seen as a Monday to Friday problem.


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The reason for this is that the president and a significant part of the U.S. population have yet to understand the issue.

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump - 14:47 UTC · Mar 9, 2020

So last year 37,000 Americans died from the common Flu. It averages between 27,000 and 70,000 per year. Nothing is shut down, life & the economy go on. At this moment there are 546 confirmed cases of CoronaVirus, with 22 deaths. Think about that!

This is not a common flu. This is a NEW flu. We have zero basic immunity against it. Without countermeasures the number of cases will explode and there will be many serious ones. They will overwhelm the health care systems and that makes all the difference.

All countries need to test as many people as possible to isolate positive cases. People who test positive but show no symptoms should not be send home to their families. China has learned that doing that only creates new clusters of cases as all family members are then likely to get sick. Those who develop symptoms must be isolated separately and with access to care. Only the 20% who will develop serious complications should be admitted to dedicated hospitals.

The U.S. must take measures to make tests available and free for all. It must also deliver the necessary healthcare free of charges. The National Disaster Medical System (NDMS) Definitive Care Reimbursement Program can be used to carry the costs.

There needs to be some form of incentive for everyone to take sick leave when necessary. The behavior below is dangerous but the man had likely no other choice.

ABC News @abcnews - 1:24 UTC · Mar 8, 2020

#BREAKING: Authorities say a man with coronavirus ignored instructions to self-isolate pending test results, instead working several shifts at Hobart's Grand Chancellor Hotel.

People must be made able to pay their bills even when they are sent into quarantine. The simplest way to achieve that is to make sick leave pay mandatory by law. Undocumented immigrants must be able to seek tests and healthcare without fear of deportation. That requires a change in the current mandatory notification scheme.

More economic measures will have to be taken to restart the economy after the slump the pandemic will cause. Large and diverse government spending program will have the best effects. Tax breaks for the rich will not do.

Today's market crash and Trump's ignorant and disastrous handling of the pandemic make it now less likely that he will get reelected. The pandemic also guarantees that demanding medicare for all will become a huge winner.

---
Previous Moon of Alabama posts on the issue:

Posted by b on March 9, 2020 at 17:54 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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it's going to be a shitshow in the u.s., trump is mainly interested in deflecting blame and propping up the stock market, and the dnc is mainly interested in saving their jobs and gravy train by kneecapping sanders; neither gives a crap about dealing effectively with the virus.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Mar 9 2020 18:01 utc | 1

Splendid B, now you really talk sense. However, one doubt remains - it has not yet been proven that people who have fallen ill with Covid-19 and then recovered are then really immune to further infection. Hopefully this is the case. Unfortunately, there are also counterexamples.

Posted by: Pnyx | Mar 9 2020 18:26 utc | 2

I wouldn't bet on South Korea being successful in containing the COVID-19. The drastic reduction of March 9th may be a statistical forgery generated by the fact that the South Korean government's numbers are coming essentially from the epicenters/ground zero (Daegu and Gyeongsang):

New cases of infections drop for third day

Circumstancial evidence shows the South Korean government is unable to cover all its territory at the same time:

The number of new coronavirus infections declined for the third straight day Monday as the government nears the completion of tests on members of the Shincheonji Church of Jesus, a religious sect at the center of the rapid spread of the highly-contagious virus, according to officials.

The same country which claims a 50% drop in cases happened also claims they just now have finished testing all the members of single church. And the sources are "officials" - that from a country where self-censorship in order to protect the government is cultural.

And, obviously, in a capitalist country with a working culture as precarious as the USA's, those containers with free testing are not nearly enough to do a complete quarantine of the country. Samsung will never allow an employee to take a day off just because he has "flu-like symptoms" or take his time to test himself in one of the containers, in a country where 15 hours working days (including unpaid overtime) are the norm.

I'm not even entering the fact that almost half of the South Korean is outsourced, i.e. don't have any working rights and benefits. Those obviously are not being tested, and are not bothering to being tested.

Posted by: vk | Mar 9 2020 18:29 utc | 3

thanks b.. always thought provoking and informative..

this part which i quote - People must be made able to pay their bills even when they are sent into quarantine. The simplest way to achieve that is to make sick leave pay mandatory by law. Undocumented immigrants must be able to seek tests and healthcare without fear of deportation. That requires a change in the current mandatory notification scheme. - i take it you are talking most about the usa in the last 2 lines.. regardless - in this system it is all about keeping the money coming in for those who are taking it in... they are not going to want to change any of that... i think it is called capitalism... no rest for capitalism! it has to keep extracting money! i am really curious how and if humanity can get up on a different level then this!

i don't get paid for self employed work if i don't show up.. how is it supposed to work for the self employed who have to pay the extractor class?? either way - i agree with your ideas and about how to handle this virus.. trump is out to lunch and you might be right - it will cost him a re-election based on how he handles this..

Posted by: james | Mar 9 2020 18:31 utc | 4

i see vk is trying to address the same topic i am... paying for people to not show up is not a capitalist thing!!! all hail capitalism!!

Posted by: james | Mar 9 2020 18:32 utc | 5

Are there any reliable sources about racial susceptibility to virus?

There were/are lot of claims Asians are most risky group, but considering virus originated there it is expected for most of cases to be Asians so far.

Also, except for China, Iran seems to be hit pretty hard (lot of high profile people infected and died). Any thoughts on that?

Posted by: Abe | Mar 9 2020 18:45 utc | 6

"People who test positive but show no symptoms should not be send home to their families."

And what exactly would be the occasion of this test, if the person has no symptoms and therefore wasn't seeking medical care? A press gang on the street?

Posted by: Russ | Mar 9 2020 18:45 utc | 7

Paid mandatory leave

No doubt coupled w/job protection, there is only one word for that ... Sooooocialism .... sooooocialism ... and that will turn 2us into Venezuela. Just ask Brian Kilemeade the former Sports commentator, now a FOX host and history book author. I am being sarcastic.

PML makes sense but maybe this is where my country finally gets its comeuppance by our own hand. We take a maximum economic and social hit because we are too busy doing Information War against China and Iran.

Posted by: Christian J Chuba | Mar 9 2020 18:51 utc | 8

With Russia rejecting a proposal by OPEC to cut 1.5 million barrels per day of production they have effectively cut the financial knees from under the shale producers. From Zerohedge, ..."While we hope to get an answer on both Saudi and US shale longevity shortly, and once the market reprices shale junk bonds sharply lower, we expect the US shale patch to soon become a ghost town as money-losing US producers will not be solvent with oil below $30, assuring that millions in supply will soon be pulled from the market, moments ago we got the answer as far as Russia is concerned, when its Finance Ministry said on Monday that the country could weather oil prices of $25 to 30$ per barrel for between six and 10 years."... Kind of like payback big time by Putin over the pipeline sanctions. Putin predicted this late last year as he hinted the USA would falter into 2020. Mr.Orange-man bought trouble for himself with Russia as Trump and the rest of his crooks cannot keep a deal or realistically operate in the atmosphere where Russia is working. Looks good on these no good banker queens. Cheap money, cheap shit! But Russia has the gold.

Posted by: Taffyboy | Mar 9 2020 18:51 utc | 9

Some people want to keep thinking that this virus is just a flu. That is just not true. The German media has been pushing this narrative- a disservice to the Germans. It is all science folks, something that many of us have forgot about. And the science says that this a good spreader.

If you want proof that this is more than the flu, just go to any Northern Italian hospital or some medical facility in Wuhan. These places get overwhelmed real quick – they just turn people away. Now you can try to talk to some of these people that just got turned down. They are having trouble breathing, have a high fever and they are panicking. It goes something like this: “So would you say that this is just like an ordinary flu?” “Excuse me - what was that ….?

Two doctors that I personally know here in southern Germany, last week, both turned down the request to treat a teenage girl staying at a small hotel here in our village who had flu symptoms. They told my friend, the owner of the hotel, to contact some health organization that I do not know about. He then told the girl’s family to cut their trip short and return home. By the way, he was not too interested in having his hotel shut down because a guest had tested positive.

So the medical staff in the country where you are at, will put a lot of pressure on the government to do something. Because people are dying since they can’t get the two to four weeks of intensive care treatment that they need. Therefore the governments starts shutting things down. That is the only thing that they can do. Doing what China has done works, but it also kills the economy. So you can see that a normal flu does not kill the economy but this one does and therefore that is why it is not the normal flu.

Posted by: meshpal | Mar 9 2020 18:53 utc | 10

b wrote - 'Today's market crash and Trump's ignorant and disastrous handling of the pandemic" is not only extremely offensive but it shows how ill informed you are. Trust, that is not easy for me to write b/c you do such good work here day after day.

First, this virus or disease or whatever one wishes to call it is not organic as in natural. It is a bioweapon. Period. This is why alarm bells were set off in early January and not only here in the U.S. but Russia, Asia and Europe as well.

Absolute steps were taken then to contain the spread by Trump and his team - https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1232752316211703809.html When he closed travel routes down any who were paying the slightest bit of attention then knew this bioweapon was extremely dangerous if it wasn't contained. For heavensakes, Russia closed down it's entire Eastern border. All advice, experience and counsel were brought to the table in early January and has continued to develop since then.

Having a President, a Chancellor, a Prime Minister showing panic before his or her constituents is reckless and irresponsible. You don't see the Wuhan virus being treated like a political weapon anywhere in the world but here in the U.S. Putin isn't having to calm his populace down b/c the media hasn't weaponized the virus for political purposes. Abe isn't having to calm his populace down because their media, again, hasn't weaponized it for political purposes. Same goes for Merkel, Macron, Johnson etc. Only here in the good ole USA is the corporate media weaponizing this outbreak.

And now you are apparently joining in. What a disappointment.

Posted by: h | Mar 9 2020 18:57 utc | 11

Summary of yesterday's numbers from the Tencent site:

Italy is now the coronavirus capital of the world. 1541 new cases yesterday with a constant 25% growth rate for the past two weeks.
- France and Germany also show high numbers: 20% growth and over 1000 cases in both.
- Iran and South Korea seem to have the epidemic under control, with decreasing numbers.
- USA has the highest growth rate at 28%: 127 new cases for a total of 582.

China had only 49 new cases, 5 of these in Hong Kong.
- Wuhan had 36 new cases,
- Gansu had 4 new cases. These are part of a cluster of ~37 cases traced to "overseas input".
- The rest of China had no new cases.


Posted by: Petri Krohn | Mar 9 2020 18:58 utc | 12

meshpal | Mar 9 2020 18:53 utc | 10:

If you actually read the post you are commenting under, these issues would become clearer to you.

Posted by: David G | Mar 9 2020 18:59 utc | 13

This is a highly sane and helpful post. My thanks to MoA.

One quibble: the tweets linked from the phrase “the fatty lipid layer” are pretty dubious.

From the perspective of communicable disease, the purpose of washing the hands is to remove germs from the surface of the skin, not kill them. I’ve never before heard soap makes “viruses fall apart like a house of cards”, and a random tweet from one Palli Thordarson, a self-proclaimed “expert in supramolecular chemistry and the assembly of nanoparticles, but not a virologist” isn’t going to persuade me otherwise.

Whatever effects exposure to soap might have on viruses in laboratory conditions (though I’m still not buying “house of cards”), that’s not what is going on in real-life personal hygiene.

This MoA post would be even stronger without that bit of pseudoscience.

Posted by: David G | Mar 9 2020 19:02 utc | 14

Here within the Outlaw US Empire, I know of several corporations having standing policies to fire anyone trying to use their paid sick leave--a contrived reason can always be manufactured so the employee can't collect unemployment either--that's why people go to work who shouldn't. Then there're many states where paid sick time isn't mandatory--think all the states in the old Confederacy. As documented on earlier threads, Trump/Pence/Pompeo and others have shown their amazing amount of callousness and ignorance that ought to disqualify them from having any position of importance--yet, they're running the show.

As for the financial meltdown, that's been brewing ever since 2008 went unsolved for anyone but the banksters. Prices for most everything except basic foodstuffs are grossly out-of-line--average new car cost of $30K being but one example. Then there're the directors of the numerous college sports conferences who're now heading into their most lucrative time of year--March Madness and its numerous tournament games, venues and fans--many imitating Trump by saying they'll go on regardless public health and safety--always For a Few Dollars More. Some stars, like LeBron James, have stated they refuse to perform in an arena empty of fans, although it's difficult to tell if it's his overblow ego talking or his concern for fans and players wellbeing. In a way, it puts things into their proper perspective--what's more important: Public Health or the attitude of millionaire athletes and the Media and advertisers that make them possible? But the public is already taking the issue into its own hands as thousands decline to take a chance on becoming infected.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 9 2020 19:08 utc | 15

@meshpal #10
I would note that Italy has unusually low numbers of hospital beds, per 1000 population, even compared to 2nd and 3rd world nations: 1.x vs. US/China 3.x and France/Germany 6.4/8.3 vs. Japan 10+
I'd bet money that Iran is equal or worse due to sanctions.
So Italy is, in a real sense, a worst case for a 1st/2nd world nation due to its chronic underinvestment in hospital bed capacity (no doubt due to years of budget restrictions due to euro/ECB).

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 9 2020 19:08 utc | 16

I must admit that b changes my view. I still think though that I have reason to believe that Corona is not much more dangerous than a heavy flu wave (in the end 60ies in Berlin they had to shove those who had died in some subway stations that were out of use. This because of the many dead and the hard frost then the dead couldn't be buried in the hard frozen ground of the graveyards).
But the argument ,that there is no sufficient basic immunity level (like I believe there definitely was with "Swine flu") is convincing. This seems to be like with the native Americans getting infected (sometimes on purpose) by European settler with (I believe) Chickenpox and German measles - diseases that were next to harmless to the Europeans. And the native Americans died in large numbers then.

Posted by: Joerg | Mar 9 2020 19:12 utc | 17

@ Posted by: h | Mar 9 2020 18:57 utc | 11

After all these days, I've come to a conclusion: many westerners still buy this "bioweapon" conspiracy theory for one simple reason - it's the only narrative available that still puts the West (i.e. the USA) in control of the situation. The West may be in the shitter, but the Western elites are still the best humanity can put on the face of the Earth. I'm a serf - but at least I'm serving the best of the best. Therefore, the West is still ultimately superior (albeit in a very twisted way) to those nasty and disgusting yellows of China. The fact that many westerners will be infected and will die from this "bioweapon" merely comes from the fact that the Western elite is cruel, and is just a detail in the greater scheme of things. But the West is still the West, the top of the world, the culmination of humanity, the End of History.

Frankly, if you want to go that route, better stick to the nuclear winter (MAD) narrative. At least that is true.

Posted by: vk | Mar 9 2020 19:15 utc | 18

No, vk @18, following the outbreak, intimately, has lead me to fully believe that this is no mere flu/virus. Read the first paper written by doc/scientist from India who were sent samples of the virus early on. It is their findings along with several other scientists who have gone on the record defining this outbreak as a bioweapon or a possible bioweapon.

I lack any desire trying to convince you otherwise or anyone else for all that matters. My informed understanding is mine as your informed understanding is yours. Peace.

Posted by: h | Mar 9 2020 19:29 utc | 19

charlie chan says people did not go nutzo in Hong Kong flu.

charlie cha wonders how US counts the sick when CDC test kits are unreliable.

charlie chan wonders why CDC refuse to test from hospitals.

Posted by: charliechan | Mar 9 2020 19:30 utc | 20

Trump's gov probably has its eyes mainly on that (apart from the stocks of course) more than anything else, and how they will turn it to their own advantage when it happens in the US
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/matthewchampion/coronavirus-italy-prison-methadone

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2020-03-09/iran-releases-about-70-000-prisoners-because-of-coronavirus-judiciary-chief

Posted by: Mina | Mar 9 2020 19:32 utc | 21

The article author is utterly ignorant about health and it shows just how ignorant about health are most all people today who believe this bs. No wonder the msm has such easy time fear mongering their agenda.

"Our societies do not have a basic immunity against a new virus."

this statement alone shows the utter stupidity of modern man and modern doctor. In 1800s was a great health scientist named claude bernard who showed that it's the terrain or immune system of the body, not the bacteria or virus, that determines the outcome of the patient. Louis pasteur recanted his germ theory and praised Bernard in the end. If you make the effort to read this, try to understand the truth of it. You won't regret it.

Posted by: rasputin | Mar 9 2020 19:33 utc | 22

Posted by: charliechan | Mar 9 2020 19:30 utc | 20

Charli Chan ask right question.

charlie cha wonders how US counts the sick when CDC test kits are unreliable.

and unavailable in quantities necessary !!!!

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 9 2020 19:35 utc | 23

reply to Posted by: Taffyboy | Mar 9 2020 18:51 utc | 9

A poster on zerohedge had this to say about Russia's willingness to let oil prices drop:
"The reason is that IMF forced Russia to adapt a budget rule requiring it to invest oil proceeds over $40 a barrel in Western debt (i.e., invest in the West instead of Russia). This budget rule allowed Russia to spend excess in this fund that is over 7 trillion rubles. Well they have now more than that so to prevent Russia from using this excess they are now forced to buy their own bank for 3 trillion rubles. Yes they are buying a government owned bank from the central bank, a bank they got for nothing from the USSR. This why Russia doesn't want oil over $40 a barrel."
If so, Putin's refusal is a brilliant move, destroys OPEC and the SA Prince funder of terrorists in Syria, destroys US fracking, trashing the US markets on multiple levels, shuts down the need to pay the bank AND buy the bank. Revenge is best served cold, no one knows that better than Russia.

Posted by: frances | Mar 9 2020 19:36 utc | 24

See this paper from 2015, some of the authors are from Wuhan: https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.3985

Posted by: Paul | Mar 9 2020 19:37 utc | 25

reply to Posted by: h | Mar 9 2020 18:57 utc | 11
I agree and from what I read on Jim Stone, it is a US bio-weapon made at Ft Derrick. He has a lot of articles on his site about the impact the virus, which has five version, several more deadly than others, is having worldwide This is the link for his site: 82.221.129.208

Posted by: frances | Mar 9 2020 19:45 utc | 26

I had the Hong Kong Flu in 1968 when I was in university. Two thirds of the students at the school came down with it. It was the worst illness I ever had next to the Measles when I was a child (that nearly killed me).

We in New York are much luckier than most US states since our state government has been very pro-active in attempting to contain the spread of CV-19.

Nonetheless, I am not concerned too much about this flu as it is being over hyped as to its lethality and transmissions. For those who get it, they will most likely recover. The comparisons to the 1918 Fly Epidemic are not realistic since that flu was in reality relatively mild. It was the horrendous conditions caused by the war that caused the overwhelming majority of deaths. Those that had access to decent health care and clean living conditions for the most part all survived.

We will survive too...

Posted by: Steve Naidamast | Mar 9 2020 19:50 utc | 27

@frances #24
I am 100% sure that if the rule you noted, ever existed, it doesn't now.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 9 2020 19:56 utc | 28

@Posted by: vk | Mar 9 2020 19:15 utc | 18

That is a very twisted way of considering the "bioweapon" theory. Quite strange in my view for a leftist.
Of course, this well could be intended by the perpetrator as a way of presure for causing fear and despair similar to the effect of harsh economic sanctions but wider and harsher, so as to give those alreay under sanctions the last shot, but due that you can not limit the collateral damage this time to your oponents only, the situation going out of control even in the same perpetrator nation, could well give the opportunity to end with this Damocles´ Spade pending always over the heads of all humanity once for all.

In my case, considering it a "bioweapon" ( which I hold from the very beginning ), something already considered by the CCP once discarded the source in the Wuhan market, comes less to add any agrandizement to the West ( which I never do, nor will do, if not because of ideological reasons...) and more to reinforce, if more was needed, its evilness and lack of absolute morality.

Of course, denying it is a bioweapon, comes very handy to its responsibles, since once the effects on economy and lost of lives valued, they could be sued by the affected nations/peoples with which that perpetrator nation will never rise its head again buried in unpayable load of criminal debt. This could well be unsurmontable if the said nation is already buried in debt before the trials even start.

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 9 2020 19:56 utc | 29

I have to go along with David G @ 14

A capsid is the protein shell of a virus. It consists of several oligomeric structural subunits made of protein called protomers. The observable 3-dimensional morphological subunits, which may or may not correspond to individual proteins, are called capsomeres. The capsid encloses the genetic material of the virus.

- Wikipedia, Capsid

Virus coats are proteins, not lipids. Now, some amino acids are hydrophobic (see the green box of the figure) so that the virus coat could have some greasy parts. But, viruses do not have lipid coats.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 9 2020 20:00 utc | 30

reply to @frances #24
I am 100% sure that if the rule you noted, ever existed, it doesn't now.
Posted by: c1ue | Mar 9 2020 19:56 utc | 28

Thank you, what do you base your comment on, I have no knowledge of the rules so am quite interested in what you know about them, thank you again.

Posted by: frances | Mar 9 2020 20:01 utc | 31

h @ 11

your insults directed at b, are not welcomed. Take that elsewhere. As for the virus being a bioweapon, where is the proof?

=============

Complacent western governments face a dilemma;

LINK Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, the Telegraph, UK.

in the UK, The Express reported the system is stressed and cancer care will be affected as in deciding who gets treatment basis good prognosis.

Now just in; anyone with the common cold must self-isolate LINK

Trump Admin attacked on COVID-19 response.

well, $$$$trillions allocated for the war machine and $0.02 for healthcare.
Sanders is pummelled by the monied-elites due his promoting medicare-for-all.

Priorities misplaced.

COVID-19 brings the chickens home as the looming credit crunch will be worst than the virus:
business travel for all meetings are cancelled. Stay and work from home, Tourism whacked; we are told to avoid cruise ships; there is that multiplier effect which includes .gov revenues.

Should big corporations get another bailout then, at the very least, credit cards' debt jubilee will be demanded for joe and john mainstreet.

Posted by: Likklemore | Mar 9 2020 20:02 utc | 32

frances | Mar 9 2020 19:45 utc | 26

I must admit that the USA seem to form an astonishing environment. One gets the "real truth" there with such an ease that one may get jealous. Thanks for the link, made my day.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Mar 9 2020 20:05 utc | 33

Trump is toast. He can’t even comprehend the magnitude of the problems with COVID-19. One problem is that we need massive government intervention to spread out the incidence of new cases to lessen the load on hospitals. The other is that we need massive government intervention to keep the economy running, and by providing funds to people who work for a living.

Trump does not get this and he will fail miserably between now and November. If we’re lucky, he’ll be removed from office by any means necessary. Too bad Schiff and Pelosi blew their credibility on the phony impeachment issue. We need to remove Trump for incapacity to do the job.

Biden is toast. He’s senile and unable to respond effectively.

I hope Bernie survives. He’s old and has a heart condition, both make him more likely than others to succumb to the disease.

If Bernie survives, he’s a shoo-in. Bernie is a socialist and the only way to handle the novel disease is through socialism. Market forces are too slow to react.

If Bernie survives and gets elected, national single payer insurance is probably going to happen and in a way that benefits the patients rather then the insurance companies.

Posted by: James Speaks | Mar 9 2020 20:10 utc | 34

reply to Posted by: Hausmeister | Mar 9 2020 20:05 utc | 33

Thank you:)

Posted by: frances | Mar 9 2020 20:11 utc | 35

This bird tweets:

"The U.S. shale sector is getting completely killed. A complete bloodbath. Billions of dollars in equity wiped out.

"Occidental Petroleum is down 44%. EOG is down 35%. Continental Resources down 40%. Smaller players like Parsley down more than 50%."

I suggest this bird look at one of those corp's balance sheets since they had very little equity but lots of liabilities (Assets=Liabilities+Equity) as Assets and Liabilities where allowed to grow with the use of interest-free money to keep the Ponzi Scheme afloat. Also recall that CEOs often get paid in shares which get dividends. Often those dividends are paid using the zero interest loan money leaving the corp with a bigger, unstable pile of debt and the CEO with a purse fattened by the loan instead of actual company performance, ie, profits.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 9 2020 20:12 utc | 36

Why is it that when RUS declined to Curb Production with OPEC, it's "Waying a War"?

What about KSA as well? They are the Ones Announcing the Dumping as they've done so before.

Posted by: IronForge | Mar 9 2020 20:14 utc | 37

OMG. What a year this will be:
-The bubble finally bursts, hello financial crisis.
-Epidemic/Pandemic deluxe
-MENA burning with Erdogan and Turks now totally going nuts with Ottoman imperialism/islamistic fascism
-And to top that off:

BIDEN AND KILLARY AS POTUS! (Hillary after some months or 1-2 years after Biden resigns because of his dementia)

And then we will go into overdrive, cold war turning hot.

All those things were looming, but i did not expect it to be that fast. WTF!

Posted by: DontBelieveEitherPr. | Mar 9 2020 20:15 utc | 38

Likklemore@32

“Should big corporations get another bailout then….”

Of course corporations will be made whole again just like in 2008. Yet they will continue spouting that Medicare for All is an evil socialist program - the very thing that would allow all people to get taken care of and at least helping contain the spread. The Democrat leadership in the House is now looking at a $350 billion corporate bailout ( how will they pay for it) - yet are viciously against Medicare for All and Bernie. A new Yale Study shows Medicare for All will prevent 68,000 unnecessary deaths and will save $450 billion - each and every year. And of course Trump also would like to cut health programs and social security. Trump and Pelosi are both on the same donor team - it is like professional wrestling working for the wealthiest against the workers.

Posted by: SteveR | Mar 9 2020 20:16 utc | 39

Why Turkey has nor reported any Corona case yet? Not a single one. Surrounded by all countries infected ecpecially many Iranian traveling to Turkey.

Posted by: ARN | Mar 9 2020 20:22 utc | 40

I saw the following excerpt from a past Rockefeller Foundation publication covered recently on the YouTube channel of Helen Buyniski -- "Helen of Destroy" (YouTube) & @velocirapture23 (Twitter). She writes for RT and is based in NYC. Anyway, the publication gives an eerily prescient "scenario" and accurate prediction of how China would handle something like today's coronavirus. Seems inevitable that "even more authoritarian control and oversight of citizens and their activities" will be the outcome of chronic pandemic outbreaks. And whether the coronavirus is a bioweapon or not, you can sleep soundly knowing that the Rockefeller Foundation and its cohorts have long-anticipated it and are fully prepared for it.


Scenarios for the Future of Technology and International Development
May 2010

Produced by the The Rockefeller Foundation and Global Business Network

"In 2012, the pandemic that the world had been anticipating for years finally hit. Unlike 2009’s H1N1, this new influenza strain — originating from wild geese — was extremely virulent and deadly. Even the most pandemic-prepared nations were quickly overwhelmed when the virus streaked around the world, infecting nearly 20 percent of the global population and killing 8 million in just seven months, the majority of them healthy young adults. The pandemic also had a deadly effect on economies: international mobility of both people and goods screeched to a halt, debilitating industries like tourism and breaking global supply chains. Even locally, normally bustling shops and office buildings sat empty for months, devoid of both employees and customers.

The pandemic blanketed the planet — though disproportionate numbers died in Africa, Southeast Asia, and Central America, where the virus spread like wildfire in the absence of official containment protocols. But even in developed countries, containment was a challenge. The United States’s initial policy of “strongly discouraging” citizens from flying proved deadly in its leniency, accelerating the spread of the virus not just within the U.S. but across borders. However, a few countries did fare better — China in particular. The Chinese government’s quick imposition and enforcement of mandatory quarantine for all citizens, as well as its instant and near-hermetic sealing off of all borders, saved millions of lives, stopping the spread of the virus far earlier than in other countries and enabling a swifter post-pandemic recovery.

China’s government was not the only one that took extreme measures to protect its citizens from risk and exposure. During the pandemic, national leaders around the world flexed their authority and imposed airtight rules and restrictions, from the mandatory wearing of face masks to body-temperature checks at the entries to communal spaces like train stations and supermarkets. Even after the pandemic faded, this more authoritarian control and oversight of citizens and their activities stuck and even intensified. In order to protect themselves from the spread of increasingly global problems—from pandemics and transnational terrorism to environmental crises and rising poverty—leaders around the world took a firmer grip on power."


I found a PDF of the publication on the internet today.

Posted by: Tom Ratliff | Mar 9 2020 20:33 utc | 41

#40 ref Turkey
two possibilities: 1) they consider themselves at war and see this data as classified
or 2) they did not test anyone.
I opt for 1

Posted by: Mina | Mar 9 2020 20:37 utc | 42

@abe 6
There is no scientific evidence for racial differentiation, so far. Iran has multiracial population, covid-19 does not differentiate anyone, as same as American sanctions.
But, Americans admitted that they have biological warfare labs, also admitted they work with Israel at the same ground. Thaht is time that UN to pass a law and ban any kind of biological warfare test and development.

Posted by: Arata | Mar 9 2020 20:59 utc | 43

@ Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 9 2020 19:56 utc | 29

Except for the fact that it was already denied by the Chinese extraofficial press the COVID-19 is a bioweapon, and that, if it is a bioweapon, it's a very bad one, since its mortality rate is very low: if you can go for your enemy's throat, why don't you do it already?

Posted by: vk | Mar 9 2020 20:59 utc | 44

It is not the virus that kills more people in Italy, it is an overwhelmed health care system

which is one of the best in the world.

Italy is a geriatric commonality

where people eat well,

but don't make children,

'cause they see the writing on the wall.

Posted by: john | Mar 9 2020 21:02 utc | 45

Dr Campbell thinks governments are not doing enough, especially his very own.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SZBuHFzYlw

His explanation of the death rate in Italy works probably for Iran too: if you compare the figure with South Korea, you get the impression SK has tested much more people, while in Italy and Iran they are tested once they are very sick. Moreover, the healthcare system in SK is probably 5 stars. Same in Germany, and therefore just 2 dead for more than 1000 affected.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 9 2020 21:03 utc | 46

Russia's move looks more interesting than the virus. Like the frackers, Trump's oil patch in Syria won't be turning much profit. Russia saying the are good for six years or more of low prices makes it look as though they are willing to go the distance to break the US frackers. But then it depends on intent. Dropping the oil price gives Russia a bit of negotiating power on other issues like Syria or whatever else happens to be bugging them.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 9 2020 21:07 utc | 47

Good Evening!

Regarding CORONA to be a 'bioweapon' please allow me to highly recommend the article of Larry Romanoff on

https://www.globalresearch.ca/china-coronavirus-shocking-update/5705196

especially the Taiwanese and Japanese sources mentioned there! Results and opinion in this article is roundabout same as my own research, so I need not to translate my findings from German to English.

Please also note in the said article the strange shutdown of a bioweapon lab for reasons of no further guaranted security ...

The states and their institutions (administrations, facilities) are dying. The capitalist ruling class is using these shuttered structures for their own purposes.

Corona, from the beginning to the end, is an artificial movement to approach global rulership. It is not a weapon. It is an instrument.

Kind regards, Gerhard

Posted by: Gerhard | Mar 9 2020 21:15 utc | 48

I do find it amusing that more members of Congress are self quarantining after being exposed at aipac. Maybe, if enough of them follow suit, we'll all be a little safer. Since no one is safe while CONgress is in session. And then you have Limbaugh, Hannity and the retards at TGP with their inane comments. Welcome, my friends, to the show that never ends.

Posted by: Shadow | Mar 9 2020 21:19 utc | 49

Considering how the virus is spreading all across Europe and the number of cases and deaths in Italy, it's safe to say this isn't a bio-weapon targetting a specific "Asian" race, or even a natural virus that is specially virulent against one race or another.
All the measures, as B said, serve to reduce the R0 and slow down the spread of the pandemic. But they should also be an attempt to fully contain it. China did it, after all - they have 80K cases, not 300M after all. But it looks like you have to be very aggressive with your lockdown (something Italy definitely isn't doing right now), or to do mass-testing of entire neighborhoods - the South Korean way, which also seems to be efficient in slowing the contagion. Europe is dangerously lagging and Italy will top the 200K cases next week, no matter what they do - they can only work to limit it at that huge threshold -, and the US is quite suicidal, as B and others showed, with the low testing and the private healthcare that will keep many infected people from even attempting to be tested.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Mar 9 2020 21:22 utc | 50

@15 Karlof1,
Here on the Oregon Coast a big portion of the jobs are in the food service industry, an industry I spent a lot of time working for. Very few restaurant jobs have any sick leave at all. If you do call in sick, one needs to find a shift replacement, which is often impossible due to the way restaurants are staffed. If you call in sick without a replacement, you will be fired. Not that food service workers can afford to call in sick, most live paycheck to paycheck and missing even one day can cause economic hardship. One of the reasons I got out of food service work (besides the low pay and stressful work conditions) was I got sick of working sick.

Posted by: Haasaan | Mar 9 2020 21:28 utc | 51

reply to
Except for the fact that it was already denied by the Chinese extraofficial press the COVID-19 is a bioweapon, and that, if it is a bioweapon, it's a very bad one, since its mortality rate is very low: if you can go for your enemy's throat, why don't you do it already?
Posted by: vk | Mar 9 2020 20:59 utc | 44

So what would be the outcome of China's govt saying it was a bioweapon? It's people would demand revenge, the world would demand proof and if it had proof the culprit would deny it. Would you go out on that limb if you were China, probably not, and IMO neither would China.

BUT if they do believe and have to their satisfaction decided it is indeed a bio weapon and have a good idea of where it came from then in its own good time, China will take its revenge.

Posted by: frances | Mar 9 2020 21:36 utc | 52

The Devil wil be in the detail !
Here’s one of thousands. So all the statistic we have been reading ie - recovery rate mortality percentage ect, must be based at present on the available medicines,respirators beds extra.
Given that this beyound doubt is a world wide pandemic.
So how will the future statistic look when the above resources run out. Or just not avalible ?
Where are those drug factory’s based !
This is likely within weeks !
Add the starvation + civil unrest mortality.
This virus will not respect statistics or demagraphics !

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 9 2020 21:45 utc | 53

@18 vk

but the Western elites are still the best humanity can put on the face of the Earth. I'm a serf - but at least I'm serving the best of the best. Therefore, the West is still ultimately superior (albeit in a very twisted way) to those nasty and disgusting yellows of China.

Western culture, in comparision, is relatively new, nothing more than 2 to 3 thousand years old. Western elites are not the best for humanity, life and eart. They have been the worst destructive force agaist life, created most destructive wars, weapons. It is not comparable to Chinese way of life preservation culture. The worst thing is that you have looked from a racistic eye.

Posted by: Arata | Mar 9 2020 21:48 utc | 54

@ Posted by: frances | Mar 9 2020 21:36 utc | 52

Unless a high-ranking whistleblower appears, there's no way to prove the COVID-19 is an American engineered bioweapon. The virus is pretty simple, and was easily replicated in a Brazilian laboratory in just 48 hours.

So, why be so eager in jumping into a hypothesis that is almost impossible to demonstrate, and over which demonstration by exclusion actually refutes it?

Posted by: vk | Mar 9 2020 21:48 utc | 55

Taiwan did extensive studies into the origins of the coronavirus.

As it turns out, there are 5 strains of coronavirus, and the United States is the only country on earth to have all 5.

Taiwan is estimating that actual deaths from coronavirus in the U.S. is 15,000 so far, but the deaths are being fronted as flu deaths.

I call your attention to the report, done by Globalresearch.ca who got a hold of a broadcast from Taiwan and did a decent translation of what that broadcast said:

https://www.globalresearch.ca/china-coronavirus-shock..

Taiwan Virologist Suggests the Coronavirus Originated in the US

Taiwan ran a TV news program on February, 27, that presented diagrams and flow charts suggesting the coronavirus originated in the US.

INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Mar 9 2020 21:49 utc | 56

I had a flu back in to 2006, I think it was. It was the worst flu I've ever had. It got into my chest and flooded my chest and throat with mucous. I was literally vomiting up mucous periodically all day and all night for six weeks. I went to the Emergency Room at San Francisco General because I was concerned that I would asphyxiate from all the mucous. The geniuses at SF General told me that as long as I could "wheeze", I wouldn't die. Gee, thanks, Doc... The question I really wanted answered was, "Is this situation likely to produce a day when I *can't* wheeze"?

They put me on an infuser for a little while - which made the symptoms worse - and prescribed an inhaler - which appeared to do absolutely nothing for the next six weeks I used it. At the time I couldn't afford the $75 that some antibiotic they suggested cost. I used a steamer appliance to help deal with the symptoms, but that was only moderately effective.

Eventually it went away, although my throat ached from all the vomiting of mucous for another two months. I remained somewhat "functional" in terms of day-to-day living, but it was hell for those six weeks. Had I been working a regular job, it would have been impossible for me to report to work. Fortunately I was working from home as an IT consultant, doing all work remotely from the computer.

If this new flu is like that, I don't wish it on anyone. And I can see how people who already have some respiratory conditions could easily die from it.

My suggestion is use hand sanitizer with an alcohol content of 70% or higher every time you leave your rooms, whether to go to work or to the corner store, when you return. Also use it every time you go to the john. The advice to not touch your face is absurd because it's almost impossible to adhere to it - better to make sure your hands are as clean as possible. Note that a computer keyboard is about as "dirty" as a toilet seat, according to what I've read. So at work I'd use hand sanitizer a few times a day as well.

No need to be paranoid, but a little additional care during this time is prudent.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Mar 9 2020 21:59 utc | 57

@ Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Mar 9 2020 21:49 utc | 56

The original virus may well have originated outside China. But the ultimate mutation definitely happened in China (in or around Wuhan, to be more precise).

I don't think your Taiwanese source is reliable, but, even if correct, it wouldn't mean the COVID-19 is a bioweapon. The USA is, by far, the most globalized country; it wouldn't be a surprise if it was the only one with all the variation of the virus.

Posted by: vk | Mar 9 2020 22:07 utc | 58

Coronavirus is not a new virus. There are several strains in circulation every year. This is a new strain. Like other cold viruses, it mutates, so nobody ever has full immunity. Thats why flu vaccines have low effectiveness. Thats why people get the flu and colds repeatedly through their lifetimes.

People seem to have little understanding of how our immune system works. Most of us don't need antibodies to fight off a cold or flu virus. Our innate immune system is the first line of defense and for most people sufficient to defeat the virus. Antibodies take up to 2 weeks to be produced in sufficient quantities after infection. While antibodies can help minimize symptoms after reinfection, if the new virus is sufficiently different, something called the original antigenic sin comes into play and can actually cause worse symptoms.

In older people, which are more severely affected by covid-19, an over reaction by the complement system of the innate system is responsible. Due to chronic inflammation due to aging the elderly have more active complement molecules than younger people. When antibodies are produced after a couple of weeks this actually amplifies the complement response and symptoms worsen, followed by death in some cases. Younger people who have no more humoral immunity than older people are not severely affected as they have less inflammation and complement molecules. Indeed young children's immune systems respond differently than adults as their innate immune system works to minimize inflammation.

Now, people like to recite the CFR. Unfortunately, the mortality rate must be calculated by deaths divided by total infections. Confirmed cases are not total infections. Total infections are an order of magnitude higher because mild cases afe not tested and confirmed. The flu mortality figures reported by cdc are not based on testing and confirmed cases, its based on models. If they reported data based on actual testing. There would be far fewer deaths and mortality rate would be higher.

Measles is a good example. In 1963 before vaccines, 400 deaths and 400,000 reported cases. A fatality rate of 1000. However, doctors know that every child got measles during childhood, although most were mild and not reported. So measles infections had to be 4 million a year. This brings the mortality rate to 1/10,000. Big difference.

Outside of hubei, italy and iran, mortality rate based on confirmed cased is under 1%. For those under 50 its less than 0.2%. The actual mortality rate is likely 10 times lower.

So, hate to say it, but Trump is right.

Lots of money to be made by hyping this though. When the market carnage is done with lots of buying opportunities for the rich. Former CDC director working at Merck sold off half her shares in January for millions. Going to be sone choice scraps to buy when markets hit bottom.

Posted by: Pft | Mar 9 2020 22:09 utc | 59

Brewster #30 writes : "But, viruses do not have lipid coats."

Absolutely incorrect. Many viruses do NOT have lipid coats but many other do. And those that do have such coverings are rendered non-infectious when exposed to detergents (i.e. soaps) especially in warm water.

Posted by: ToivoS | Mar 9 2020 22:10 utc | 60

I am seeing how irresponsible people at certain blogs where they have themselves as oustanding intelligent people, probably only thinking in ther shares´ value, are spreading disinfo in the same sense of that twitted by Trump.

Laissez faire will not work. In certain European countries private hospitals are already deriving their Covid-19 cases to the public system ( of course the government should act asap on this taking extraordinary measures to force them absorbe their clients or even requsition their beds for a public health emergency as it is this one ). This only will accelerate the rate of lack of ICU beds and respirators.

There are already Twitter threads by health personel as the one linked by b, estimating the exponential grow will easily come of this epidemics.
A Spanish doctor in Madrid was already saying that the time will come where triage will be needed to prioritice who accedes to the respirators/ICU beds once the health system overwhelmed...I only hope those irresponsibly denying this is a global pandemic emergency and spreading disinfo through their media to be the first discarded by triage, as they are only making things worse, along with guarantor of their tax cut Trump. I bet them there will be a respirator for Trump, but for them, that is in the air.

In Madrid, after the huge demonstrations of Women´s Day yesterday, new cases have jumped to the rate of Italy. Today all schools and universities closed in the same city. Heads shoukd be already rolling.

Then, we are not counting on the possibility that thing here will not go so orderly than in China. In Italy, to the public health crisis, they add a probably public order one, with several revolts in jails because of restriction of visits...
Just some hours ago some dozens of inmates of a prison in Foggia were running free in the streets taking advantage to commit crimes as they go out robbing cars and menacing commercial activity...

https://twitter.com/Matteo_LT/status/1236982039439646720

Probably as a result, already the whole Italy closed, there is no more red zones, prohibited to move throughout the peninsula. 60 million people.

For those irresponsibly claiming from the same blogs that this will cease with the good weather, people are reporting from Argentina where today there was around a hot summer day, that there are increasing cases there.

Harvarad University and the WHO have already discarded this epidemics will behave like the estational flu..

Coronavirus ‘highly sensitive’ to high temperatures, but don’t bank on summer killing it off, studies say


Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 9 2020 22:11 utc | 61

New York Federal Reserve Bank announced Monday it will increase its daily injections of cash into financial markets by $50 billion to $150 billion as a protective step amid #coronavirus epidemic.

https://twitter.com/PDChina/status/1237020467652935680

I see your tangible assets bet and raise another $50 billion per day of presto digitizer created out of thin air fiat.

Because I CAN!

Now what are you going to do about it huh?

If you crash our ponzi scheme, who are you going to sell your oil and gas to?


That said, in periods of past extreme economic turmoil folks like Steve Mnuchin, with the trophy British wife, aka The King of Foreclosure, made out like bandits. He's now duce Trump's Secretary of the Treasury. The prior Republican standard bearer, the Mitt, was also a Vulture who particpated in the hollowing out of the American Industrial Heartland, for profit.

A life long con man and grifter coupled up with a Jewish vulture capitalist leading a phony charge to Make America Great Again...?

A script that writes itself.

Sadly..the supposed opposition are also beholding to AIPAC, and it's dictates.

Chuck Schumer says he was appointed by God to be the Guardian of Israel. It's true, and confirmation is available on the web.

Is he an American or an Israeli? No one should be allowed to be both, should they? Am I right or wrong?


Why just look at the good ole boys Netanyahu's very good friend , Tabloid Star and huckster about town the donald to see who is really the Bossman of Murika's gun toting Patriots.

Pretty sad really when you think about it. A Country that ravaged it's indigenous people to break the land open for settlers of European descent, only to have it fall into the clutches of a tiny tribe of foreigners who never put skin the game and came in with their gangsterism and were always about accumulation of wealth and power for themselves.

Welcome to America, haven for the Gangs of New York and Grifters about town.

Posted by: Bubbles | Mar 9 2020 22:12 utc | 62

Dear B,

In the hospitality industry in Australia, paid sick leave is available to full-time and part-time employees. The man employed at the Grand Chancellor Hotel in Hobart (in Tasmania) was likely employed as a casual. He is known to be a student in his 20s and is currently in isolation at hospital.

From FYA.org.au: If You’re Young and Work In Hospitality, You Need To Read This.

"... Don’t come to work sick. You will spread your gross germs around, make everyone else sick (including customers!) and you’ll be pretty useless anyway. Australians recognise that it’s in all our best interests if you STAY THE HECK HOME while you’re unwell, and that’s why you’ve got the option of paid sick leave if you’re employed on a full time or part time basis.

If you’re employed on a casual basis, you’re entitled to unpaid sick leave. You are supposed to subsist during your illness on all the lavish savings you’ve accrued from your extra four-bucks-fifty-five-an-hour in casual loading. This is clearly problematic, and a lot of young casuals are forced to attend work sick out of economic necessity ..."

It is likely that many if not most COVID-19 cases in several countries so far have also been spread by people working in health, hospitality and other related service industries where most workers are on casual or temporary contracts with either unpaid sick leave or no sick leave.

Posted by: Jen | Mar 9 2020 22:16 utc | 63


"I have the hunch that this is a normal flu" (D.J.Trump, March 2020)

"I have the hunch the recovery is around the corner" (Herbert Hoover, November 1929)

That is the way POTUS go down in History

Posted by: DFC | Mar 9 2020 22:17 utc | 64

I think vk is right about what could cause a belief in the narrative of a biological weapon because the narrative itself is utterly pointless; the people claiming it is a weapon don't seem to understand that it makes no positive or meaningful difference whether or not they should turn out to be right.

Not only that but it doesn't help with anything and only makes things worse in that it potentially obstructs from for example the continued search for the intermediary hosts and potential original animal host population which —if/when identified— can help avoid future outbreaks. In addition to that they stress and scare people unnecessarily which makes it easier for them to become infected.

Think before spreading narratives based on outlier views from a few people, try to question yourself as to whether all you're doing is chasing your own confirmation bias, try to find and understand valid reasons why most knowledgeable people are not jumping to the same conclusions.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Mar 9 2020 22:17 utc | 65

Posted by: Gerhard | Mar 9 2020 21:15 utc | 48

this is the very end of the link you posted:
"Just for information

In the past two years (during the trade war) China has suffered several pandemics:

February 15, 2018: H7N4 bird flu. Sickened at least 1,600 people in China and killed more than 600. Many chickens killed. China needs to purchase US poultry products.
June, 2018: H7N9 bird flu. Many chickens killed. China needs to purchase US poultry products.
August, 2018: outbreak of African swine flu. Same strain as Russia, from Georgia. Millions of pigs killed. China needs to purchase US pork products.
May 24, 2019: massive infestation of armyworms in 14 province-level regions in China, which destroy most food crops. Quickly spread to more than 8,500 hectares of China’s grain production. They produce astonishing numbers of eggs. China needs to purchase US agricultural products – corn, soybeans.
December, 2019: Coronavirus appearance puts China’s economy on hold.
January, 2020: China is hit by a “highly pathogenic” strain of bird flu in Hunan province. Many chickens died, many others killed. China needs to purchase US poultry products."

I personally do not believe this i by chance i must admit, i find the bioweapon theory plausible. That the zionist entity bragged that they might have a vaccine within a month only made it more plausible imo, but just bc i find the theory plausible do not mean i believe it to be so.(YET)

Posted by: Per/Norway | Mar 9 2020 22:18 utc | 66

Vk@44

In China the mainenemy is their old people. A rapidly aging population. COVID-19 is very effective against old people with mortality rates based on confirmed cases approaching 10%. Quarantines will have younger people produce a bunch of newborns this fall. This is what they want. Temporary disruptions in the economy are simply opportunities for the elite (party elite).

People need to wake up. The bottom 90% are the elites enemy. We are a virus in their eyes which need to be held in check, and preferably reduced in numbers. Chinas elite are equal members of the club of global elites. Dont be fooled by the fake Wrestling act, thats a cover for the real agenda and also serves to unite the people against a perceived enemy (they dont have a 2nd party the people can blame like in US)

Posted by: Pft | Mar 9 2020 22:21 utc | 67

Perhaps the Chinese are playing 5D Go, having developed the virus in their lab, and releasing it in their own population knowing two things:

1. That they have a plan for a mass mobilization to combat the virus in China to minimize its impact; and,
2. The Western governments are so inept that when the virus inevitably spreads to the West, the West will suffer massively and their economies and societies will tank completely.

Posted by: JasonT | Mar 9 2020 22:24 utc | 68

Everyone here talking badly about our national health system while we have one of the healthiest and oldest population in the world. Nothing it's collapsing here and we are doing our best, something that I'm not sure can be said about other Nations.
We have many positives because here, in Italy, we test a lot of people and for free. How much does it cost to be tested in US? Are you sure that a very expensive health care system, like the one in US, can handle this virus better than our free for all health care system?
In a couple of months you'll get the answer, don't worry.
Good luck to everyone from Italy.
Andrea

Posted by: Andrea | Mar 9 2020 22:27 utc | 69

With regard to our host’s paragraph beginning “The U.S. must take measures...”

None of this will occur. Mike Pence would rather die and witness his countrymen die than countenance any of this. The overwhelming majority of the nations elite feel the same way. We are going to find out what course the disease takes left to its own devices. Rational conduct is not a factor.

Posted by: oldhippie | Mar 9 2020 22:31 utc | 70

To what extent is the high death rate in Lombardy caused by failing healthcare system and to what extent is it caused by incomplete sampling? 6% is too high.

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Mar 9 2020 22:39 utc | 71

TovioS @ 60

Many viruses do NOT have lipid coats but many other do.

OK. I stand corrected. It is more complicated than I realized.

Some viruses (e.g. HIV and many animal viruses) have viral envelopes as their outer layer[1] at the stage of their life-cycle when they are between host cells. Some enveloped viruses also have a protein layer called a capsid between the envelope and their genome [1]. The envelopes are typically derived from portions of the host cell membranes (phospholipids and proteins), but include some viral glycoproteins.

-Wikipedia, Viral Envelope

So the viruses get the lipid coat from the cell wall of the infected cell they emerged from. And, surprising to me, some viruses don't have capsids at all.

Well, its good to know all this stuff.

Thanks.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 9 2020 22:48 utc | 72

@frances #31
Among other things: Russia may have had this rule when the IMF had an outstanding loan to Russa - but Russia paid off its full debt to the IMF in 2005: Russia IMF repayment
Secondly, Russia has very visibly been both reducing its Treasury holdings and buying gold with its budget surpluses:
Russia continues to decrease US Treasury holdings (Dated October 2018)
Russia buying gold with budget surpluses (Dated 2019)
The ZH link is either old or the poster is singularly uninformed.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 9 2020 22:51 utc | 73

@Per/Norway #66
You said:

I personally do not believe this i by chance i must admit, i find the bioweapon theory plausible. That the zionist entity bragged that they might have a vaccine within a month only made it more plausible imo, but just bc i find the theory plausible do not mean i believe it to be so.

There is a much simpler explanation: China's increasing wealth means its people eat more meat. More Chinese meat consumption means more farming of animals - enormously more. Which includes many more animal farmers.
And since we're all familiar with the shortcut ways by which Chinese companies can produce - why is it so surprising that animal-derived diseases are arising in China?
Perhaps you may have noticed the swine disease that's killed off half of China's pigs?

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 9 2020 22:57 utc | 74

@Posted by: Gerhard | Mar 9 2020 21:15 utc | 48

You are onto something there, and this is why I hold this is a bioweapon, with the elites ready ( or most probably have theirs secured by having beforehand info )to assume loses so that achieving by this epidemics what they could not achieve by democratic vote, that is, the victory of the far-right and with it the imposition of an authoritarian fascist dictatorship.

To this add that I do not find so wild that theory linked here by one Russell Bentley on that this is only the formation of the perfect storm after which the real war will start.

A week ago we did not know that an oil war would start today....

Then, you have that main affected countries are those of the Axis of Resistance and US opponents. In Europe, look at which are the most affected countries, just the Italian regions where recently people´s movement of the left got with the left to victory in regional elections reinforcing the central government. Also Spain where a coalition of socialist and new left just took power.
This is the people in Europe who most would oppose a NATO war, capable of building anti-war movements since both count with important popular movements behind....

It is said that already 20.000 US soldiers have been transferred to Europe for the preparations of the coming NATO "maneuvers"...Are these soldiers already vaccinated?
If that is so, how is that?

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 9 2020 23:00 utc | 75

Didn't take long for Sanders to make COVID-19 a POTUS campaign issue. "After former Vice President Joe Biden on Monday morning declined to address or answer questions about the coronavirus during an event in Grand Rapids, Michigan, Sen. Bernie Sanders urged the public to tune in to a COVID-19 roundtable discussion the senator is hosting Monday afternoon in Detroit alongside nurses, physicians, and other medical professionals:

"'This crisis is another clear example of why we must guarantee healthcare as a right for every single man, woman, and child in this country,' Sanders wrote. 'This crisis is another example of why we need universal paid family leave in this country, so people who are sick can stay home, recover, and prevent the virus from spreading. This crisis is another example of why we must take on the greed of the pharmaceutical industry.'

"'Health experts agree that the spread of the coronavirus will likely get worse before it gets better,' Sanders added. 'Donald Trump must stop spreading lies and fear, and leave the science to scientists and health professionals, not politicians. We must make certain that we are prepared for a pandemic.'"

What a comparable example. Sanders is on top of the issue and acting on it while Biden is doing the same as Trump by showing his ignorance and inability to act rapidly on a major problem. A video of the discussion is available at the link.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 9 2020 23:05 utc | 76

@59 pft

Great post, pft. Hopefully, people here get a lot from it.

I have read up on original antigenic sin from Dr. Humphries before. She relates it to vaccines in that they program our immune system to respond to a specific strain in a specific way, basically leapfrogging our initial immune response in favor of building antibodies, which, as you say, should be a secondary resource of a healthy immune system warding off disease. But if the strain is different or has mutated, our immune systems register a question mark when confronted with the strain.

It's yet another instance which points to vaccines being considered, at the very most, a stopgap measure, when what is desperately needed is more understanding of the immune system and its natural responses to common diseases.

...

One thing that I always have trouble understanding is that the CDC lumps pneumonia deaths in with flu ones to give that typical 10,000-50,000 deaths/year statistic.

We can't even really know or peel that actual flu-caused death value away from the combined total without a cost-prohibitive autopsy.

All of this more or less informs my opinion that you are indeed correct and the immune system is the biggest modifier when it comes to infectious disease and mortality.

Unfortunately, from time to time, the perils of swarming together come barging in on our seniors and most vulnerable.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Mar 9 2020 23:16 utc | 77

B's scenario is definitely the most likely, but there are two other scenarios I can't just entirely dismiss.

Unlikely wishful thinking but; it might be true that CV-19 is sensitive to heat, and it just magically turns into a seasonal thing until enough people have the anti-body then it goes away, and or... of the five different strains, the most deadly turn out to be rather racist, and certain ethnic groups including Persians and Italians get infected and fall victim at a much higher rate.

Or unlikely scenario number three, it is a bio-weapon. Of the five reported strains, the most lethal is targeting Persians, probably also Arabs,and some Italians have a little Persian DNA. The next most lethal targets Chinese, And the other strains are designed to spread quickly yet have very mild effect, and provide a person anti-bodies to the more lethal versions.

Posted by: Gregory P | Mar 9 2020 23:20 utc | 78

@Gregory P | Mar 9 2020 23:20 utc | 78

Iran was the busies cross road of history, all races were mergred togother inside Iran, there is no so called a pure Persian DNA at all. Persian language, and culture is different thing, never belonged to any specific race. L

Posted by: Arata | Mar 9 2020 23:55 utc | 79

Excellent. This is what the truth looks like.

Wuhan coronavirus cases are popping up around me and the White House. Soon deaths and exponential growth will occur in the Greater DC Capital Area. I am sheltering in place to see if I can get another decade. Nobody ever wants to wake up in the ICU attached to a ventilator like I did. It is astonishing how the United States got so corrupted and divided that it elected an incompetent leader like Donald J Trump. My belief it is due to the loss of democracy due to trying to keep the Post WWII Western Empire from collapse.

All of Italy is shutting down. China, South Korea, Singapore and Italy imposed quarantines because they are facing an existential threat; the swamping of their health care systems. The Diamond Princess death rate is 0.19% with 7 deaths in a population of 3700 under quarantine and with hospitalization of the ill. It is when the healthcare system collapses that the death rate rises to 3% and higher. It is extremely frustrating to have a leader so old and pathological that the US federal government doesn’t recognize this.

The USA within a month or two will shut down too, getting a serious illness or injury will be a death sentence. For leaders whose sole purpose in life is hording more wealth, today’s halting of trading on the NY Stock Exchange due to the equities crash from the economic effects of the pandemic is Schadenfreude.

Posted by: VietnamVet | Mar 9 2020 23:57 utc | 80

Trump is toast. He can’t even comprehend the magnitude of the problems with COVID-19. One problem is that we need massive government intervention to spread out the incidence of new cases to lessen the load on hospitals. The other is that we need massive government intervention to keep the economy running, and by providing funds to people who work for a living.

Posted by: James Speaks | Mar 9 2020 20:10 utc | 34

Sure, there will be problems, but hope is not lost:

Mister Trouble never hangs around
When he hears this Mighty sound:

"Here I come to save the day!"

That means that Mighty Democrat is on the way!

Yes sir, when there is a wrong to right
Mighty Democrat will join the fight
On the sea or on the land
He gets the situation well in hand.

-------------

This help probably will not be changing coronavirus. If the virus give trouble to Mediterranean people and to Persians apart from Chinese, it is surely not specific to some East Asian genetic variant. But is it possible to set Trump against someone even more inept and demented?

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Mar 10 2020 0:00 utc | 81

Apologies, I don't want to mess up the thread but I am still confused on facts that may be easily understood by others. First, we do know that the virus is very contagious, although younger and healthier people can and apparently do get infected while coping with a spectrum from no apparent symptoms of disease to just getting very sick but not needing hospitalization. At least, I think we know that.

So, in the cases in Italy, the recommendation had been for only the very sick whose condition was very bad would be the ones to need hospitalization - which mostly is the elderly population, and the folk who already are coping with an illness. They should be brought to the hospital, but as b notes, they are doing so in large numbers, more so than for an ordinary 'flu. And hospitals can't cope, or can barely cope with this. With those infected but not seriously ill still able to pass on the virus?
Some discussion has also been had on triage even of the hospitalized patients, to winnow out the ones who have a good chance of survival, since not enough staff or equipment is available for all to be helped. That's a very serious situation indeed, and would seem open ended unless the second group can self isolate.

In b's analysis, China dealt with this situation by quarantining all affected populations and in effect having all within the quarantines tested and assisted medically. Containment being the operative procedure, to limit exposure...Sorry, karlof1; I couldn't seem to get the specific link to the discussion you described. Could you summarize what took place there?

I think I'd be a lot like Biden faced with questions on it all - since so many alternate scenarios for adequate preparation seem to be in play. Using Rumsfeld's "You go to war with the army you have" - how can each country deal with this threat - did Bernie have answers?

Posted by: juliania | Mar 10 2020 0:11 utc | 82

Tuyzentfloot @ 71:

Even before COVID-19 hit northern Italy and Lombardia in particular, the Po Valley region was already the worst region in Europe for air quality.

Nitrogen dioxide and fine particles are threatening Po valley air quality

"... To shed light on how dangerous it is for humans to live in polluted environments, Chicago Energy Policy Institute has recently developed the Air Quality Life Index (AQLI), a system capable of analyzing air pollution worldwide. According to AQLI findings, Po valley air pollution affects inhabitants so hard that it cuts off about half a year of their life expectancy. It doesn't come as a surprise then, that this particular area located in Northern Italy is considered the most polluted in Europe ..."

It should be no surprise then that COVID-19 has hit northern Italy hard due to the high levels of air pollution from industry and agriculture concentrated in a small area.

Posted by: Jen | Mar 10 2020 0:21 utc | 83

We are fortunate that an Israeli lab has vacine pretty much ready to go. Thank goodness.

Posted by: jared | Mar 10 2020 0:26 utc | 84

Eatin lots of rice and pasta is common to Italian as well as Chinese.Can there be a relation between a virus and digestion,in the sense that consuming specific foodstuff makes one more attainable to some virus?Could it be that americans are kept stupid by consuming lots of monsanto'ed popcorn?I mean how can you loose trillions of taxpayer money and not seem to care about it?Isn't politics all about money,especially taxpayers money and how to spend it?Has B.Sanders raised the subject or is that lying on that vast forbidden territory where he'd better not troddeth for the good of us all?All of us are spinning crazy it looks like,.Get out people,spring is coming and in the end Evil disappears in a fart.

Posted by: willie | Mar 10 2020 0:35 utc | 85

The red carpet wellcoming of Erdogan in EU, along with the rumors on that along with Jeffries and US ambassador to the UN arrived in Idlib some American "agents" with bags of money and US passports and promises of residence for those willing to perform an attack on Turkish troops for a false flag...comes to reinforce the impression that Erdogan and the Turkish army are acting as head beach for a coming NATO offensive...

https://twitter.com/abdbozkurt/status/1237075742036557825

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 10 2020 0:57 utc | 86

Reports out of China say the virus likes cooler temps. This bodes well as we head toward warmer months

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.22.20025791v1

At the risk of incurring Gretas wrath, turn up the heat.

From WHO’s latest situation report

Outside Hubei in China/HK/Taiwan, with a population over 1.3 billion people, after over 2 months there were only 13, 000 cases, 116 deaths. CFR 1%. Assuming actual cases underreported, which is likely, CFR is not more than flu. Only 9 new confirmed cases and 2 deaths in last 24 hrs.

In Western Pacific, 8100 cases, 62 deaths, only 2 new deaths last 24 hrs. CFR 0.7% based on confirmed cases

Southeast Asia (warm places)
109 cases, 1 death. 16 new cases 1 death in last 24 hrs.

Americas , 362 cases, 12 deaths (10 from nursing home). CFR may be an outlier as explained below

Europe (ex Italy) 4600 cases, 36 deaths, 0.8%. Last 24 hrs 1300 cases, 11 deaths.

For whatever reason, Iran, Italy, US and Hubei have more cases and higher mortality rates. I’m not sure what they have in common with each other. Hubei has extraordinary pollution and an aging population (as does China as a whole). Irans medical system is probably messed up due to sanctions.
Italy has an aging population.

From the wsj


“In Italy, which has the oldest population in the world after Japan, 58% of Covid-19 patients who died so far were over 80 years old, and a further 31% were in their 70s, according to the National Institute of Health, Italy’s disease-control agency.
“If we break it down by age group, our death rates are similar, or even lower, than those reported in China,” Giovanni Rezza, the institute’s chief epidemiologist, told reporters on Monday. “For better or for worse, we have a very old population.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/italy-with-elderly-population-has-worlds-highest-death-rate-from-virus-11583785086

Also, “Italy’s testing policy also contributes to a higher ratio of deaths compared with known infections, said Mr. Rezza. Italy has so far tested around 54,000 people, but is focusing tests on those with clear symptoms and known contacts with high-risk areas. That means many people who carry the virus but have mild or no symptoms aren’t being tested.”

And in US (Washington) most of deaths were from a nursing home. Like Italy the high fatality rate in US is probably related to under testing. This is probably true in Iran and Hubei as well.

Take home is to be cautious about CFR. Deaths are probably accurate and should be the best indicator. Globally we have 3800 deaths among 8 billion people, the vast majority of whom are older. Obviously, there will be more but still. Not much reason to panic.

But people are easy to scare, and there is money to be made and power to be seized, so they scare people .

Posted by: Pft | Mar 10 2020 1:02 utc | 87

Reports out of China say the virus likes cooler temps. This bodes well as we head toward warmer months

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.22.20025791v1

At the risk of incurring Gretas wrath, turn up the heat.

From WHO’s latest situation report

Outside Hubei in China/HK/Taiwan, with a population over 1.3 billion people, after over 2 months there were only 13, 000 cases, 116 deaths. CFR 1%. Assuming actual cases underreported, which is likely, CFR is not more than flu. Only 9 new confirmed cases and 2 deaths in last 24 hrs.

In Western Pacific, 8100 cases, 62 deaths, only 2 new deaths last 24 hrs. CFR 0.7% based on confirmed cases

Southeast Asia (warm places)
109 cases, 1 death. 16 new cases 1 death in last 24 hrs.

Americas , 362 cases, 12 deaths (10 from nursing home). CFR may be an outlier as explained below

Europe (ex Italy) 4600 cases, 36 deaths, 0.8%. Last 24 hrs 1300 cases, 11 deaths.

For whatever reason, Iran, Italy, US and Hubei have more cases and higher mortality rates. I’m not sure what they have in common with each other. Hubei has extraordinary pollution and an aging population (as does China as a whole). Irans medical system is probably messed up due to sanctions.
Italy has an aging population.

From the wsj


“In Italy, which has the oldest population in the world after Japan, 58% of Covid-19 patients who died so far were over 80 years old, and a further 31% were in their 70s, according to the National Institute of Health, Italy’s disease-control agency.
“If we break it down by age group, our death rates are similar, or even lower, than those reported in China,” Giovanni Rezza, the institute’s chief epidemiologist, told reporters on Monday. “For better or for worse, we have a very old population.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/italy-with-elderly-population-has-worlds-highest-death-rate-from-virus-11583785086

Also, “Italy’s testing policy also contributes to a higher ratio of deaths compared with known infections, said Mr. Rezza. Italy has so far tested around 54,000 people, but is focusing tests on those with clear symptoms and known contacts with high-risk areas. That means many people who carry the virus but have mild or no symptoms aren’t being tested.”

And in US (Washington) most of deaths were from a nursing home. Like Italy the high fatality rate in US is probably related to under testing. This is probably true in Iran and Hubei as well.

Take home is to be cautious about CFR. Deaths are probably accurate and should be the best indicator. Globally we have 3800 deaths among 8 billion people, the vast majority of whom are older. Obviously, there will be more but still. Not much reason to panic.

But people are easy to scare, and there is money to be made and power to be seized, so they scare people .

Posted by: Pft | Mar 10 2020 1:03 utc | 88

juliania @82

Here's the symposium with Sanders. It begins at 46min in. I have yet to watch as busy elsewhere.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 10 2020 1:05 utc | 89

Jared@84

They have an untested vaccine, something they were working on for animals for 4 years. There are at least 20 companies beginning testing of vaccines they have developed. None will be ready in the near future, and tests on SARS vaccines in animals suggest those vaccinated might be more susceptible to subsequent infection (flu vaccines are only about 50% effective so vaccinated people get flu), so you would be in worse shape if it was not effective and you get infected

Posted by: Pft | Mar 10 2020 1:10 utc | 90

karlof1@ 36 said in part;""The U.S. shale sector is getting completely killed. A complete bloodbath. Billions of dollars in equity wiped out."

Good, couldn't happen to a more toxic and earth killing process. Pumping toxic wastes under ground to frack shale. What could go wrong with that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

Posted by: ben | Mar 10 2020 1:23 utc | 91

@ 90: Try this;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_additives_for_hydraulic_fracturing

Posted by: ben | Mar 10 2020 1:26 utc | 92

Re 12 '- USA has the highest growth rate at 28%: 127 new cases for a total of 582.'

How could this be? They have a stable genius in charge.

Posted by: Sigil | Mar 10 2020 1:26 utc | 93

Posted by: juliania | Mar 10 2020 0:11 utc | 82

younger and healthier people can and apparently do get infected while coping with a spectrum from no apparent symptoms of disease to just getting very sick but not needing hospitalization

Everyone can get infected, from children to young healthy adults to the elderly. Young and healthy people can die from this, though with a lower probability. A certain percentage of mild and moderate cases will suddenly worsen after a while, mostly likely due to uncontrolled immune system reactions, at which point it can go downhill very fast. In addition, people trying to recover at home can infect their families or caretakers. This is why b. is saying that the mild and even asymptomatic cases should also be brought in. They don't necessarily have to be in full-fledged hospitals, but they need to be monitored.

With those infected but not seriously ill still able to pass on the virus?

Yes.

China dealt with this situation...Could you summarize what took place there?

If you are asking about what took place in China...To be honest, I doubt that China's strategy can even be explained to most people in the West.

Posted by: Chinese American | Mar 10 2020 1:44 utc | 94

The Chinese reaction to biowar attack in 1952 was very effective. What they seem to be doing now is of the same quality, or so it seems. Their efforts are described in the International Report I've mentioned before. Makes ya' wanna cry what the US did in Korea and China, no wonder George Blake and the American POW flyers switched sides.

People who estimate that the US will not respond well are obviously correct.

I remember the flu when I was a kid, damn near killed me.

Now another one like that might do the trick.

We're stayin' home an' hunkerin' down.

Just because the plan is insane doe not mean it's not a plan - I remain of the opinion it's a weapon, not that it matters.

Posted by: Walter | Mar 10 2020 1:59 utc | 95

There was a poster who didn't believe b when he said the West was very critical of the Chinese response to Coronavirus; b was right, and the who questioned him was wrong here is a sample:

China turns to propaganda to right image in virus ‘war’

Posted by: QuietRebel | Mar 10 2020 2:08 utc | 96

for the conspiracy minded...

@ 26 frances.. regarding the link you offered... does jim stone mention about the harvard prof who was travelling to wuhan who has been charged with sharing sensitive info with the chinese by the cia/fbi? from january 30th - "Lieber is a prominent nanoscientist who received more than $15,000,000 in Pentagon and National Institutes of Health contracts. Harvard said Lieber had an academic rank “bestowed on only the most eminent scholars.”

Professor Lieber allegedly had a secret arrangement with a Communist Chinese institution designed to recruit top Western science and technology talent, and was part of a research program in Wuhan, China, site of the recent outbreak of Wuhan corona virus."

https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2020/01/30/harvard-china-spy/

its an interesting coincidence if nothing else..

jared - i appreciate the sarcasm! a few folks around here are pretty good with that..

Posted by: james | Mar 10 2020 2:21 utc | 97

Open borders was always a mistake. Tight borders are firebreaks.

Posted by: stevelaudig | Mar 10 2020 2:29 utc | 98

Posted by: James Speaks | Mar 9 2020 20:10 utc | 34
Posted by: Piotr Berman | Mar 10 2020 0:00 utc | 81

If you sincerely believe Trump is clueless, Biden and Bernie same same. It doesn't matter who win. We lost. There is no way either the Dem or Repug allows the insurance or pharmaceutical company deprives their massive profits. You have forgotten the banksters, hedge’s fund mgr, real estate moguls, or military-industrial complex and hosts of other crooks... the lists go on and on...

Let’s be honest these three freaking old men each selling their special brand of snake oil, if Covid-19 dun wipes us off, one of these three idiots will finish the jobs. That's a guarantee!

I have since lost faith in America’s capitalism, starting with Bill Clinton and now Trump... socialism with Chinese characteristic looks promising. No?

"But is it possible to set Trump against someone even more inept and demented?" Hey have you forgotten the other two freaking old men? They are our best, our very best!

Posted by: JC | Mar 10 2020 2:33 utc | 99

Could this be because they have a balanced mixed economy, some refer to as socialism?

https://dnbam.com/es/finance-blog/covid-19-impacts-on-the-nordic-high-yield-market

Posted by: ben | Mar 10 2020 2:57 utc | 100

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