Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 19, 2020

False Claims About The Novel Coronavirus And How To Debunk Them

Today China reported zero new domestic cases of novel coronavirus infections. It has beaten the epidemic just as we predicted early on. Other countries with still expanding epidemics will have to adopt all the measures China has taken to also win the fight.

Our extensive reporting about the novel cornonavirus has attracted many new commentators to this site. Unfortunately some of these, as well as some of the regulars, continue to spread disinformation and myths about the current pandemic and its causes.

To keep some level of quality at this site requires an aggressive countering of such comments. But our capacity to do so is limited. We do delete comments that are nonsensical or have been debunked and we do block people who insist on posting or reposting nonsense. But there are now many more comments per day than we can read. We therefore have to ask other commentators to counter the bad false ones.

Here are some of the false claims that are made about the pandemic and the facts needed to debunk them.


The novel coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 is a Chinese virus that comes from bats. It infected people because Chinese people eat bats.


The source of the virus is actually not known. The patient number 1, the person who first carried the virus, has not been found. The Wuhan wet market where exotic animals are sold was not the source of the outbreak:

The paper, written by a large group of Chinese researchers from several institutions, offers details about the first 41 hospitalized patients who had confirmed infections with what has been dubbed 2019 novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV). In the earliest case, the patient became ill on 1 December 2019 and had no reported link to the seafood market, the authors report. “No epidemiological link was found between the first patient and later cases,” they state. Their data also show that, in total, 13 of the 41 cases had no link to the marketplace. “That’s a big number, 13, with no link,” says Daniel Lucey, an infectious disease specialist at Georgetown University.

While the novel corona virus might be one that was originally carried by bats it is unlikely to have jumped from a bat to a human. The older SARS virus, which is somewhat similar to the novel coronavirus, originated from bats but first spread to other animals before mutating from there into a form that infects humans.

The only place where bats are regularly used as food is the Pacific island Palau which is more or less a U.S. colony. Videos showing Chinese citizens eating fruit bat soup were actually filmed on that island.


The virus is related to HIV, the virus that causes aids.


Some Indian researchers found four genome sequences in the novel coronavirus that can also be found in the HIV virus. They self published their findings in a paper that was not peer reviewed. We discussed that paper in detail on February 1 in our second post on the virus and we strongly expressed our doubt about its veracity. A few days later the paper was retracted by its authors after other scientists had pointed out that the lengths of each of the four sequences they had compared were way too small to be of statistical significance.


Asian people are genetically more receptive for the novel coronavirus.


The virus enters human cells by binding to the ACE-2 receptor on the cells hull. There were assertions that people in Asia have more ACE-2 receptors than people elsewhere. But detailed studies of various genome sequence databases have found no statistical basis for such claims. People of Asian, Caucasian or African heritage all have the same numbers of ACE-2 building elements and receptors. The virus will effect them equally.


The virus originated from a military weapon research laboratory.


There is zero evidence that the virus is from a Chinese or U.S. or other (weapon) laboratory and the claim actually makes no sense. The genome of the virus consists of more then 23,000 'letters'. It is significantly different than the genome of other known viruses. (Added:) It is not lab made:

We offer a perspective on the notable features of the SARS-CoV-2 genome and discuss scenarios by which they could have arisen. Our analyses clearly show that SARS-CoV-2 is not a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus.

To artificially create such a complex entity and to test all its variants would have been a program of the size of the Manhattan project and would have cost billions.

Weapon researchers are sane people with a limited budget. They look for methods to defeat an enemy. A virus that affects all humans indiscriminately but kills mostly very old ones would have no military value.


Moon of Alabama has downplayed the danger of the virus.


Our first post on the issue was headlined The Coronavirus - No Need To Panic. It discussed the infectiousness and fatality rate of the novel coronavirus disease in comparison to other virus caused diseases. We pointed out that it is less infectious and less deadly than for example SARS but never said that it is not dangerous at all. In fact the numbers we pointed out said the opposite.

The piece simple put the current epidemic into perspective. We have since posted a total of 15 detailed pieces on the pandemic. To claim that this is a downplaying of the issue is nonsensical.

Previous Moon of Alabama posts on the issue:

Posted by b on March 19, 2020 at 12:19 UTC | Permalink

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It may have been Izzy Stone (I. F. Stone) who advised "Never believe anything until it's been denied.", but it's a truism, whoever says it. And "Governments lie." (also Izzy Stone, I think)

So what?

Sooo> "Never mind the HUMVEES! Maryland National Guard reassures residents there’s no martial law threat amid virus panic " (rt)

They must be comedians down at the shop, saying stupid stuff like "What are you going to believe, me or your lyin' eyes?

Posted by: Walter | Mar 21 2020 13:31 utc | 501

Amongst the reasons why many of us thought of "conspiracy theories", because of satrnge too many coincidences and lack of reaction by governments, this photos which show us that even one century ago, with the implied less culture amongst the masses and less means by the governments, people understoood the need of wearing masks while out in mass...

Why don´t we? Why the Western governments degraded the importance of prevention and the agresiveness of this pandemic, and even that it would become pandemic?

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 21 2020 13:33 utc | 502

The death rate for March 20 needs to be paired to the confirmed cases of perhaps 4 to 5 days earlier. For Italy at the moment, recovery rate is only slightly higher than death rate, though an even longer time lag for recovery numbers.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 21 2020 13:34 utc | 503

To my 497 - see> "Last Surviving Soviet Ace of Korean War Opens Up on Clandestine Ops Against US Air Force" @ sputnik > “In that battle, we knocked 25 of 48 B-29s out of service as they flew to bomb the bridge over the Yalu River,” the veteran recalled, referring to the bridge connecting North Korea to China. “I still remember the image in my mind: an armada of planes is flying in combat formation, beautiful, like during a parade. Suddenly we swoop down on top of them. I open fire on one of the bombers – immediately white smoke starts billowing out. I had damaged the fuel tank. And then my comrades arrived. I’d say we thrashed the Americans pretty good. All our fighters returned to the airfield, and the USAF declared a week-long period of mourning and didn’t get up the courage to send bombers to the area for a long time,” Kramarenko recalled."

Posted by: Walter | Mar 21 2020 13:43 utc | 504

As long as DFC figures do not mention how many of these people had obesity, high blood pressure, diabetes or else, I take it as a lab doing some advertisement for its coming vaccin.

A question which i don't find addressed anywhere:
France had the 1st European case, a Chinese man who had traveled from China to Amsterdam by plane and then took trains to Bordeaux. At the same time roughly, the British super-spreader infected a family of friends in Haute-Savoie when visiting them on return from Singapore. He returned to the UK, and infected other people but never experienced harsh symptoms.
How come then the figures in UK and The Netherlands have not been parallel to the infection curve in France (one answer is a one-week long evangelist meeting in Mulhouse, incl. 2000 people among whom 300 kids, from all over the country and abroad)

Are there weekly statistics of the dead in UK and NL? Any surge in February?

Posted by: Mina | Mar 21 2020 13:43 utc | 505

In the US it will be a carnage... seeing how things are developing in Italy and Spain...still with majority of public health care system and a more solidary society by Meditterranean culture...

It is astonishing how they keep discussing the future of their shares in the stock market at certain blogs or largely privileged people...They should beware social chaos does not end being the result in their country, at that point, shares will end up useless...

I fear people dying in mass over there in their homes and wonder they have already unleashed the National Guard throughout the country....Amongst the reasons why probably Tulsi left the election race...

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 21 2020 13:45 utc | 506

Here is another angle on Italy, and who knows as the story lines are still being told. (Remember the strange connection between the virus and Advil, turning the virus into a death machine? Coincidences??)

The situation is becoming increasingly dramatic.

Dozens of people are dying every day in Lombardy.

The beautiful town of Bergamo is living its darkest hour. Military trucks are used to transport the corpses to the crematoriums outside the town; doctors and nurses work 20 hours per day; in the hospitals there are no more places in intensive care units; triage (choosing who can be cured and consequently healed and who instead can't be cured because too old or ill) is becoming a common practice.

Nevertheless, I am more and more convinced that coronavirus is only a colossal psy-op. Odd to say that in a moment where people continue dying. But I really think is a psy-op!

In others regions of Italy, where health care system is of a low quality, situation seems relatively quiet, even if the number of infected continue growing; ISS (Istituto Superiore della Sanità) a sort of a National Institute of Health, has just published a report in which it is said that the number of people effectively dead because of coronavirus is very low; media outlets contribute to fan panic by transmitting prevalently movies of catastrophic gender and inform the people how the situation is terrible and that all of us must be stay home...

Coronavirus seems to be a very strong flu with a high degree of mortality: 0.8% rather than 0.2 for a normal flu. But these numbers cannot justify a quarantine for an entire nation.

And in Lombardy the degree of mortality is very, very higher: 6%!

What does it mean? Why is there such a difference in the lethality rate?

Evidently there must be an exogenous element that makes the difference: an element because of which it has become simpler dying for coronavirus in Lombardia, albeit it has the best health care system in Italy, than in other regions of the country.

And what is exogenous element? I fear that it can be a vast program of vaccination occurred in the last months, prevalently just in the towns which today are those which most suffer for the coronavirus.

Now we know that dozens of thousands of people were vaccinated for meningitis. Meningitis has always been rare in Italy but unfortunately in the last years the cases have multiplied because of African migrants who arrived to Italy without any form of medical control.

So many people, scared for the growth of this disease, have preferred to be vaccinated. All of this would explain why at the moment there are very few infections among the immigrants, even between Chinese diaspora. They haven't been vaccinated!

In other words, the vaccine lowers the immune defences of our organism at a such level that the virus can strike with an incredible virulence, otherwise impossible.

Obviously I can't prove all of this. But more and more people in Italy have started to think about a correlation between the virus and the vaccines. If true, this means that Italy has been chosen to be a guinea pig for the rest of the worId.

Striking a limited part of the nation and then imposing a quarantine for the rest of the country... I would call this a stress test. The aim is to verify in a very large scale the reaction of the populace, how easy is it to force people to accept what otherwise they shouldn't ever accept.

(In other words, if anyone offers you a vaccine to the corona virus I would run, not walk. You are probably being offered Part A of a two pack mix, and you can only imagine what Part B does!)

Posted by: Ric G | Mar 21 2020 13:49 utc | 507

Los Angeles Times to-day> "A decision by L.A. County’s public health system not to test patients with symptoms could make it difficult to know how many are infected." (no chit!)

Mark Sleboda's Tweet> "This whole #coronavirus situation might make more sense to people once they understand that nearly every govt in the worlds' policy right now is NOT based on preventing spread of the virus. Whether they admit that or not. They've long since given up on that possibility. 1/-

But he's a Russian...must be disinformation... I expect he'll be disstwittered...

Posted by: Walter | Mar 21 2020 13:51 utc | 508


There is a lot of people that for some reason are determined not to face what this virus actually is. With good health only a few of the very weak die. If the spread gets out of control, then quality of medical care goes down it it moves to the stage where younger relatively healthy people start to die and many are left with permanent damage to the lungs.
Every country, well certainly in the west, there are many that simply ignore the rules to controlling the spread that think exactly the same.
If it was like the dreamers would prefer it to be, we wouldn't see such a large scale closing borders around the world and laws on size of gatherings and other measures are put in place.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 21 2020 13:55 utc | 509

While we suffer the shock of first deaths of health workers...

Images of Iranian doctors and public health workers who have recently died of Coronavirus, after fighting on the front lines risking their lives, without means and with the sanctions of the American criminal empire

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 21 2020 14:04 utc | 510

H.Schmatz | Mar 21 2020 13:33 utc | 502 (conspiracy)

Every prosecuting attorney uses conspiracy theory to put people in jail...and we're not supposed to believe that there are conspiracies... Wally imagines that's crazy, barking mad, and classically "Orwellian" double think. What the el is a shared "secret" but a conspiracy?

Wally uses coincidence theory. He was shootin' dice with Wrongway down at the Dewdrop Inn, and a feller came in with a wad of bills an' joined them. That feller lost pretty heavy, had no grasp of mathematics... But Then A Funny Thing Happened. He began to win every roll.

After we tuned 'im up a little we got hold of the dice. Loaded of course. An amateur. Ten consecutive wins destroys the ability to suspend disbelief.

FDR said "in politics there are no coincidences" (pretty close).

Posted by: Walter | Mar 21 2020 14:06 utc | 511

We, our governments, our elites, the western society in general have been living in a extremely quite period from at least 70 years, with remote conflicts, some risks (Cold War) never materialised, mild economic crisis and no sudden problems at all. This was the old "linear" world

But now you have to face the "exponential function", a new world, and you cannot use the tools of a linear world in an exponential world. Italy past from 107 deaths in 5 of March, to 3.405 in only two weeks, in 19 of March, all the former "systems of decisions" are made futile by the speed of the change, you cannot work in a "feed-back" way in an exponential world, you have to work in a "feed-forward" way trying to pointing in the right direction.

That is the reason a chinese expert in epidemics yesterday in Milan, when they saw the way the italians are managing the crisis said: "I don't know what you are thinking":

Posted by: DFC | Mar 21 2020 14:11 utc | 512

Hi Peter, I agree with what you say. I understand it is difficult to handle for the states, but only because they have let it spread (in France our politicians were campaigning until 10 days ago, even when some 20 MPs were positive...they did not even try to identify their case stories...).
I am very lucky to live in a northern country where people are responsible enough not to organize Corona-parties or go out for fun in large groups. Thanks to this responsible attitude, we are allowed to hike, bike, play football etc and I hope it will stay so.
As i said in January: this will be the nail in the EU coffin. And i agree with Varoufakis, what can be saved needs to be saved. It certainly does not include a common defense budget, among other things. I m not specialized in politics, but I would like ppl like Noirette and others here to offer their thoughts on what should be saved. It is the proper time to start putting forward ideas in the collective mix, because even with Barnier now knocked down by the virus BoJo is still waiting around the corner. (barnier said he feels very fine, like Rainier of Monaco and other ppl we know have a wealthy standard of living........... how come that is not discussed by the media with recommendations on keeping your immune standards high?)

Posted by: Mina | Mar 21 2020 14:17 utc | 513

Proof that the virus was originated in a lab comes from the patent that was filed for it. see this:

This being said, this pandemic is a hoax: the world has not yet reached the number of 10000 deaths and we are making all this fuss. It is sad to see people dying from a disease, but this number is not comparable to the number of deaths from flu worldwide, which varies between 300000 and 600000 per year!!! (see
After over 2 months of declaring Corona a pandemic, we are only at 10000! The world has gone mad, or rather this pandemic is the tree that hides the forest. The worst (I mean the economy) is to come and many more people will die from it. What we are witnessing is an exercise in mass control and i hope the next step is not a war...

Posted by: Bongocero | Mar 21 2020 14:27 utc | 514

@krollchem #431
The mechanism is promising, but if the choice is between something already heavily tested (i.e. hydroxchloroquine) vs. something which isn't and also requires significant contortions to be absorbed: quercetin or is super expensive (remdesivir) - I know which one I'd pick.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 21 2020 14:33 utc | 515

A warning call from Italy, to prepare and be cautious, from the very front line...

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 21 2020 14:34 utc | 516

We finally have our first (very circumstancial) evidence the SARS CoV-2 was originated from the USA:

Petition urges US gov’t to clarify army lab shutdown as doubts grow over COVID-19’s origin

The fact that the lab in question is an Army Lab raises the possibility it may have been engineered or studied as a potential bioweapon, but this is far from certain.

Either way, the most important piece of information here is that this was published by the official CCP newspaper (People's Daily). It doesn't fool around with fake news and propaganda attacks (albeit that may be a first).

Posted by: vk | Mar 21 2020 14:37 utc | 517

to kiwilown #475. Here's another for your list. But first, I must apologize to all barflies...I do not do links, just call me Cyber-Thumbs, and my spanish is only middling, but here's a great story from this morning's A group of chilenos have created a 3D program to make N95 masks. These masks have antiviral and antibacterial properties, and are washable, hence reusable. The inventors have made their program open source, i.e. available to anyone who needs it. I can't judge the utility of the coding, but I can definitely say that it puts grasping psychopathic murka to shame.

Where's sasha these days? We could use a good translator/link provider. Meanwhile, please take a look. Front page. Today's Other news. Chile is working hard on containment and preparation, i.e. tent hospitals etc. It's too soon to say for sure, but the rate of increase is leveling off perhaps.

Posted by: Miss Lacy | Mar 21 2020 14:38 utc | 518

@Peter AU1 #433
You have been clearly pushing an agenda (perhaps subconsciously) as opposed to looking at the data for quite some time now. This agenda has skewed your analysis in obvious ways including:
1) Chloroqui*: no mention of the significant side effects. No mention of the way this drug works. A completely wrong understanding that it is the anti-inflammatory uses of Chloroqui* which is how it could be combating nCOV. No dosage guideline. No mention that Chloroqui* are subject to viral resistance evoluation.
2) Vitamin C - completely missing understanding of the nCOV disease progression. A wrong understanding of the CITRIS trial. A lack of understanding where Vitamin C, as proposed by doctors, would play in the nCOV kill chain.
3) Remdesivir - also lack of understanding of disease progression and place the drug might play in the kill chain.

Having someone clearly point to
a) mechanisms of operation for different drugs,
b) why they work, why they might not work,
c) side effects,
d) dosages, and
3) long term implications, etc
is far different than jumping onto news reports or flat out wrongly assuming inflammation control is the primary concern. Someone taking your type of useless advice would risk permanent vision damage from not knowing that the chloroqui* drugs all have very significant retinopathy side effects and that it is therefore extremely important to know when to use them and how much.

Your continued attack via ad hominem only reinforces my view that you are not a reliable source for anything.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 21 2020 14:39 utc | 519

Mina 513

Yes. This is a major turning point, a game changer which is why I am so interested.
The government in my country has surprised me. Normally they tag along with the US and UK, but with this they have watched what is happening in China and acted accordingly. the other day i posted a tweet here from I think a Chinese health minister. There was some sort of meeting where he was giving information on what they had learned to other countries. most were African or Asian. The only non Asian or African was the relevant Australian official.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 21 2020 14:44 utc | 520

You spreed but fake news. The numbers of deads have already surpassed 10000 time ago, thehigh difference with common flu is i nthe seveirty of cases and the huge ammount og complicated cases whic hammount in a short time period. the results you point for common flu are totals all along the whole flu season, which extends for several months, here we are talking of hundreds needding ICu care in the same day...


Mathematical estimations...for Spain only...

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 21 2020 14:46 utc | 521

@Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 21 2020 14:46 utc | 521

Well, as the poster did not make it clear, it seems by the comments below, those were mathematical estimations for the world, sorry...

I think it will surpass that...because of the clear lack of effective organization by governments and improvisation of measures following the events as they develop, when the Chinese have already published and shared their experience and even guidelines..

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 21 2020 14:52 utc | 522

@DFC #477
I fear you at totally confused.
SARS1 killed primarily working age people because of cytokine storms. A cytokine storm is where the body's immune system reacts so heavily to the invasion that it does more harm than good - i.e. kills the person.
Trying to say that 1918 flu was "better" than nCOV because it killed the most at 28 years of age is ridiculous - you clearly failed to read in post 337 that the life expectancy was such that most people were young, period - and that the profile of a young, dead, working age victim is very different than today's nCOV.
But most importantly, if you actually read the study on cytokines with nCOV that you reference - you'll note that it makes no solid conclusions:
1) It says mortality *might* be due to cytokine storms or fulminant myocarditis
2) The absolute mortality levels for young people is consistently very low. That the 0.1% or 0.2% who die from nCOV, may die due to cytokine storms or fulminant myocarditis does not make this equivalent to 1918 flu or SARS1

You read the news article which was slanted entirely the wrong way - i.e. sensationalist - without looking at the underlying study.

Return to GO, do not collect $200.

As for the 2nd study: since nobody even knows what the 1918 flu is - it is purely computer model based self-flagellation. I automatically dismiss all of these as being 100% speculative with no way of ever validating results.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 21 2020 14:52 utc | 523

Regular Commenters who read b's excellent posts on the Skripal saga:

COVID-19 Human Vaccine Trials to Begin at UK Gov’s Top Secret Science Facility - Report LINK

Human and animal trials for a vaccine against the coronavirus are due to start taking place from next week in the UK at a maximum security science facility at Porton Down, according to reports.

The tests come as the British government finds itself locked in a race against time to mitigate the disease's outbreak. According to the same report, the government is likely to speedily launch the human trials - referred to as 'phase two' - before the results of the animal trials are even fully known, [.]
(emphasis added)

Hmmmm. One is tempted to hop on the bw speculation. And no; the propaganda that COVID-19 is caused by 5G leans to the anti-Huawei drumbeat - too selective - the virus targets people, young and old, with underlying conditions. That's some smart virus.

Unanswered questions abound:

How many here subscribe to coincidences?

Why did the SARS outbreak in 2003 and Swine flu in 2009 not lead to a global shutdown of economic life?

Why the draconian rule of filling out forms if you leave your house or 6 months in jail?

Why is the UK conducting animal and human trials against COVID-19 at infamous Porton Down?

Where is Billy G?

Posted by: Likklemore | Mar 21 2020 14:53 utc | 524

@DFC #484
84% of the US population is under 65 - why is the distribution of hospitalization so surprising?
No one has said anywhere that being under 60 means you have nothing to fear - about 20% of *everyone* who gets nCOV, develop severe respiratory problems - i.e. need a hospital.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 21 2020 14:58 utc | 525

Posted by: Bongocero | Mar 21 2020 14:27 utc | 514

The worst (I mean the economy) is to come and many more people will die from it.

I call it the "Hank Paulson Moment".

Pres. Ray-Gun took care of the Unions, put small farmers in the grave and defeated the Soviet Union (ha ha ha ha).

Bush Sr. had a vision of "Thousand points of light". Lets see what he had on his mind,

Bush reprized the phrase near the end of his speech, affirming that he would "keep America moving forward, always forward—for a better America, for an endless enduring dream and a thousand points of light."

Yeh, looking back on his years all seemed to be getting better and better if one didn't pay attention. Better said, "Living in a Dream" (I'm guilty).


Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 21 2020 15:00 utc | 526

re: * c1ue *.
I'm following your 'input' closely.
You are doing a fantastic job.
I myself for the time being, will remain quiet concerning the developments in Sweden.
For General Info concerning Sweden...cough-cough...:
May I suggest Bing Translator instead of other types.
Regards X-

Posted by: Veritas X- | Mar 21 2020 15:03 utc | 527

In the end, at a time of accute crisis, who stood there were the workers at essential services... the Chinese....the Cubans...and the common citizens...We should not forget...

Today it is "World Poetry Day"...Encouraging words glued to Chinese cargos to Spain...

"The sun always comes out after the wind and rain. Difficulties bring out true feelings"

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 21 2020 15:09 utc | 528

How Covid-19 Overwhelmed an Italian Region’s Hospitals

Lombardy has only 720 ICU - and needs 14,500 by March 20. When they realized that, they sent the Army.

At this point, it would be sugarcoating to state the Italian healthcare system is overwhelmed. It is crushed.

The Army was sent there not to help, but to contain the inevitable revolt. This may well be the end of Italy as we know.


S. Korea confirms 147 new virus cases, total at 8,799. Death toll hits 102

Concerns over cluster infections linger

PM urges religious, entertainment, indoor sports facilities to shut for 15 days

This reinforces my hypothesis about South Korea.

The cases begun to drop two weeks ago until they reached a floor of 100 cases. That indicates that the government was only able to contain the epidemic up to a point, i.e. Daegu region, and that it's not that the number of infected is low, but the testing capacity of the government that is overwhelmed.

Registered cases in South Korea fell sharply after the second week of March. This coincided with the moment the government finally finished testing all the 210,000 members of the Christian cult Shincheonji. After that, it was 130, 100, 130, 100... and more news that the government was "worried" about at least two "new clusters".

The situation, at least to me, is very clear: the government was able to legally quarantine the Christian cult as it didn't hurt the chaebols. Since the cult was very big and relatively concentrated in one region (Daegu), they were able to test a lot of people in a relatively high quantity per day. This gave the impression to the outside world that the situation was calamitous in South Korea.

But when they finished testing the members of the cult, the number of detected cases naturally fell sharply. This again gave the impression to the rest of the world (with the help of a good amount of pro-S. Korea propaganda and soft power) that the government magistrally contained the COVID-19.

However, the government is naturally not able to enforce a national lockdown (as it would hurt the chaebols' business) and, outside the cult members, have a relatively weak testing capacity. That resulted in a constant pace of 100-130 new cases per day since the second week of March.

This means S. Korea probably is in the same situation (the bizarre case of the Christian cult excluded) as Japan: governments in the dark, just waiting for the apocalypse to come, so that the central government can finally descend guns blazing to enforce a brutal lockdown (as is already happening in Western Europe).


Number of COVID-19 cases in Japan, excluding cruise ship, tops 1,000

The Japanese government can only live in denial up to a point.

The Americans are beginning to pressure the Japanese to postpone the 2020 Olympics:

USA Track & Field joins swimming in push for Games delay

And you the story of post-war Japan: when the Americans command, the Japanese obey.

Posted by: vk | Mar 21 2020 15:11 utc | 529

@Posted by: Likklemore | Mar 21 2020 14:53 utc | 524

Indeed.. after reading that at media, thought whether what Skripal knew was more related to this than to Russiagate...Recalll both, Julia and Sergei needed mechanical ventilation...

Will we ever know the truth?

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 21 2020 15:13 utc | 530

Likklemore 524
From what I read not long back, A person was not contagious until sowing symptoms. By then, most were in hospital. Some did spread it before going hospital, but because there was a delay of five days or more before the victims became contagious, they could be tracked down and isolated before they started transmitting the virus.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 21 2020 15:17 utc | 531

@Mina #488
Singapore seems to have things under control, but I think it is very early to make any pronouncements of victory in Germany or Switzerland.
Among other things - timing is a factor. Italy clearly got it very early.
If in 2 or 3 weeks, the German death rate continues to be low, then it means something.
In particular, Germany has such a ridiculously low rate of serious cases vs. total cases that it seems more than a little suspicious - or else beer and bratwurst confer immunity to nCOV: Serious cases as a percentage of overall nCOV cases
Note in particular that Singapore and Japan are actually #5 and #6 in terms of serious cases as a percent of overall cases.
There are multiple potential factors here of which amount of testing is clearly a big one.
Here's amount of testing for 8 countries as of March 9
Note per capita testing in the US and Japan was really, really low. South Korea and Italy, much higher but still far, far below 0.1% of the population tested.

Such a low rate of testing means that there is certainly enormous uncertainty over just how many people have contracted nCOV - asymptomatic ones for sure. The number of deaths and "serious cases" (i.e. hospitalized) is firmer - but that is still subject to variability given overload situations in Italy, for example, as well as likely different definitions of "serious" in different countries.

I've also been reading about interesting theories about how disease spreads - i.e. it isn't R0 number that matters so much as social graph number. Which is to say, any random person doesn't interact regularly with other random people. Everyone's social circles is different and largely fixed, and is a function of culture. This matters because disease spreads still largely by relative location - and getting into 1 social circle means everyone in that circle is exposed, so disease spreads by jumping from one social circle to the next - not by a random % interaction between 1 random person and any other. If social graph theory is correct, it is the sizes of individual social circles and the manner by which social circles interact with each other, that factors into disease spread. This of course is in addition to general hygiene...

Socially, this has implications as well. Spain and Italy - people hug and kiss each other when close acquaintances meet - talk about excellent transmission...

Japan - they don't even shake hands. Bowing involves no physical contact, and Japanese would wear masks when getting cold/flu even before HK flu/SARS1, so it is possible that nCOV just isn't spreading.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 21 2020 15:18 utc | 532

@H.Schmatz #502
I disagree.
The economic impact of a lockdown is severe. The notion that any government would do so without incontrovertible proof that the situation is serious, is risible.
The reality is that China can easily afford 4000 dead - it is 0.000286% of their population. Don't forget, extreme measures were taken for SARS1 and it was a fizzle.
Equally, Western governments had no idea if this disease was due to China's health care system, hygiene, genetics, whatever.
It is easy to look back and say "should have shut down in January" when the numbers of dead Westerners could be counted on one hand, not so clear at the time.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 21 2020 15:23 utc | 533

@ 512 DFC... thanks for the link to the fellow addressing what is happening in northern italy and saying they haven't locked down enough...

Posted by: james | Mar 21 2020 15:40 utc | 534

Tariq Ali @ going underground says, inter alia, that the maximo CV19 is @ Cashmere, in the occupied lock-down space, and in particular in the Indian-established "concentration camps and jails."

Obviously ruski propaganda...isn't it?

Posted by: Walter | Mar 21 2020 15:54 utc | 535

More commie lies from those godless commies...yeah, right.

"US authorities are taking practical steps to introduce a state of emergency in which power can pass from civilian to military. This is reported by a large article by William M. Arkin published in Newsweek entitled “ Exclusive: inside top-secret military plans in case the coronavirus cripples the government .” "

Walll, ah alwayzfigguerd, mama said they'd a-go this way...yeah, pink, maybe even Red...

see> Anglo 5Headline NewsOpinions
REVEALED: U.S Plan for Military Rule under Coronavirus Threat – Newsweek

@ fort-russ dot com (total bulchit, who'd doubt?

(from Lebowski. Dude: "Does His Pope-ness chit in woods?")

fragment> "...“The transfer of authority may be temporary or lengthy,” the directive No. 40 says. It further stipulates that personnel designated for the transfer of power should be located in a “geographically dispersed area not affected by the incident.”..."

Down at the Dewdrop Inn somebody said the heard Wally say: "Authority? Blow me", that's what I heard.

Money gunz an' lawyers ... that's 'nuf.


Wally's goin' back to fixin' in the garden and shop...

Posted by: Walter | Mar 21 2020 16:10 utc | 536

ONE OF CONSPIRACY: The 2 Airbus A340-313X VIP (called "Konrad Adenauer" and "Theodor Heuss") landed yesterday in Las Vegas, whose airport was closed last Thursday the 19th because of the Coronavirus

3970 Spencer Street, Las Vegas: "Underground House", the bunker built by an American oligarch to survive a nuclear war with the Soviet Union

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 21 2020 16:15 utc | 537

It is amazing to see the significant amount of posts that calls this epidemic a hoax. They rush to that conclusion comparing the death at the end a flu epidemic with the one of Cov, just started...the facts don’t seem to faze them: in Italy they already have 14 times more deaths than the flu, the hospitals and morgues are totally overwhelmed, other countries like Spain and France are showing consistent data of logarithmic transmission and death and folks continue to play it down. I guess that denial is one of the typical human response to stress. Also it’s funny to see how some are using it to advance their own ideas: in China was the 5g ( I guess Iran doesn’t do so well at that...), it is a conspiracy to ——-fill in the blanks( that includes communist China , islamic Iran and about all Europe, they all are assuming trillions in economic losses apparently to advance some agenda)
Folks, take a look at Cdc data just published: this is a nasty bug. 40% of the severe pulmonary syndrome are younger than 54. Maybe they don’t die as much( at least until we will run out of ventilators ....) but being hooked to a vent for weeks is not fun either. So called “ previous medical problems’ don’t seem to be severe: htn, diabetes, copd... probably 70% of adult Americans

I have been seeing flu epidemics for more than 20 years in American Hospitals and this it ain’t no flu.

Posted by: Hospital doc | Mar 21 2020 16:27 utc | 538

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 21 2020 16:15 utc | 537
Or the special passengers were to make a connecting flight to Area 51. ;-)

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 21 2020 16:32 utc | 539 the land of the brave and the free...The drainning, not of the swamp, but of anything of value, accelerates...

STATE CAPITALISM: The Federal Reserve announces that it will inject a trillion dollars daily into the REPO markets (in the short term) to help banks

CLASS WAR: Coronavirus uncovers tensions between East Hampton billionaires, who have tests to find out if they are infected, and the working-class enclave of Springs, which lacks access to them

National Guard deployed to Baltimore to ensure compliance with Coronavirus quarantine the greatest democracy in the Middle East...

EVERYTHING IS UNDER CONTROL: In Israel the total suspension of individual liberties is discussed

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 21 2020 16:32 utc | 540

NO, definitely, this is not a bioweapon...but a way to reorganize glboal ecomomy so that already expected economic meltdown of some gets fixed achieving through a pandemic what they are finding increasingly difficult through hybrid war...

JP Morgan has reached 6.8% of Repsol through financial derivatives. Scavenging vultures rub their hands with the spread of the coronavirus.

Get the oil!

Could it be that now we are all under attack, along Syria, China, Russia, Iran, Iraq, Yemen?

Which European countries are being spared so far?

We will know after "reorganization", to see who were aboard....

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 21 2020 16:48 utc | 541

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 21 2020 16:32 utc | 540

Did you catch this News from the Land of Zion ?

Posted by: A User | Mar 21 2020 3:19 utc | 451

(March 19, 2020 / Israel Hayom) Israel’s Mossad intelligence agency was able to deliver 100,000 new coronavirus test kits collected overseas to local labs overnight Wednesday, Channel 12 News reported Thursday.

Mossad "collected". What, they were standing on a corner and asking for donations ? Mossad is used for medical purchases ? Strange as Hell.

Are those two stores talking about the same kits ? I have to admit NOW I'm not so sure but knowing Trump's love of Netanyahooo who knows.

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 21 2020 16:50 utc | 542

Which European countries will be spared....

The French CGT demands the nationalization of the only European oxygen cylinder factory, closed by decision of the British shareholder years ago.

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 21 2020 16:52 utc | 543

One very good article on this epidemic...

Read, comrades, and post, while we are still able to do it...

The Empire and The Capital do not close on Sunday

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 21 2020 16:57 utc | 544

Whay lays behind the great numbers of victims in Madrid...

"Madrid has been a neoliberal laboratory for health policies”

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 21 2020 17:08 utc | 545

From what I read not long back, A person was not contagious until sowing symptoms.Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 21 2020 15:17 utc | 531

That is now debunked. So is the incubation timeline.

Recalll both, Julia and Sergei needed mechanical ventilation...
Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 21 2020 15:13 utc | 530

yes and 10 months after they were found on a bench, the Skripal's home in Salisbury was commandeered by .gov to have the roof removed and decontaminate the grounds.

Were the materials taken to Porton Down to be re-purposed?

the "it's a national secret" surrounding the Skripals gives cover to the theme "Russia is the threat."

Wanna help write the script for a movie?

Oh and get this bit of stupidity:

Republican congressman calls on Trump to make China forgive US debt over coronavirus crisis

Rep. Jim Banks thinks China needs to pay the United States for the spread of the coronavirus. The Indiana Republican told Fox News’s Tucker Carlson Monday night that the U.S. needs to hold China accountable for the crisis the coronavirus has caused stateside, which could including making the communist country forgive a chunk of America's debt.[.]

“We need to start by forcing China to pay the burden and the cost incurred on the United States of America due to the coronavirus. I think there are many ways that we can do that,” Banks said.

“The president could force China to relieve a great amount of American debt," he continued. "He could institute tariffs on China and designate the funds from that into a coronavirus victim relief fund to pay the cost incurred on Americans and [.]

Will someone remind the congress critter he should be careful. China would have several financial counter claims starting with the 2009 swine flu which had US origins. "The predecessor of the 2009 H1N1 swine flu virus - | Abstract "The swine-origin influenza A (H1N1) virus that appeared in 2009 and was first found in human beings in Mexico, is a reassortant with at least three parents. Six of the genes are closest in sequence to those of H1N2 'triple-reassortant' influenza viruses isolated from pigs in North America around 1999-2000. | virology.biomedcentral

Posted by: Likklemore | Mar 21 2020 17:09 utc | 546

@Lozion #385 WiFi 5G

Electromagnetic fields can interfere with the lymphatic system and along with high voltage are for some* (*there's much vested interests) claimed to be associated with Leukaemia and other forms of cancers which can benefit when the lymphatic system goes tilt.

I was shocked when Prof. Olle Johansson claimed microwave cellular telephone transmissions are 6,000,000,000 stronger than the universal background natural levels - which our Homo sapiens bodies were better designed for. So as PeterAu points out I don't think the 5G specifically is an issue, certainly not in Iran or perhaps Italy but more the ever increasing dosage of cellular and WiFi signals our bodies must sustain in the urban environment. Which (according to Ollie*) is an increasing problem for health, particularly the immune system to fend off a variety of illnesses. I turn off our WiFi at night, and mobiles never go in the bedroom. There is something of a WHO/UN issue -ongoing as far as I'm aware- including recommendations of no more than 1 mirror in residences -I guess the silvering reflects WiFi and can therefore concentrate signals.

(*yes Ollie is hated/attacked by the cell phone manufacturers and their various industry minions, but he does talk a lot of sense.)

Posted by: dennis | Mar 21 2020 17:14 utc | 547

@Posted by: Likklemore | Mar 21 2020 17:09 utc | 546

But, after the US ( and the UK ) has robbed so many Venezuelan and Iranian assets, after they keep stealing Syrian, Iraqi and Yemeni oil for around 10 years or more, did anyone expect they were going to pay any debt, with or wthout Coronavirus?

Of course, the Coronavirus acts as alibi, but as it will not wash...They are trying to get two birds with the one shot everywhere, but the shot will end leaving by the butt, as it happens to them everywhere...So far, what they worry more is to get oil and cash...

BTW, as far as my count goes, Germany has been the only country allowed to repatriate its gold from Fort Whatever...Why that could be?

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 21 2020 17:17 utc | 548

Hospital doc @ 538 says:

the facts don’t seem to faze them

hey doc, if you want to crunch some numbers, crunch these, all of them, and don't miss the updates.

Posted by: john | Mar 21 2020 17:20 utc | 549

Posted by: john | Mar 21 2020 17:20 utc | 549

I had no idea that that site had updates. Good that you pointed to it again John. Well done !!!

In a bombshell interview, Professor Sucharit Bhakdi, a world renowned expert in medical microbiology, says blaming the new coronavirus alone for deaths is „wrong“ and „dangerously misleading“, as there are other more important factors at play, notably pre-existing health conditions and poor air quality in Chinese and Northern Italian cities. Professor Bhakdi condemns the currently discussed or imposed measures in no uncertain terms as „grotesque“, „useless“, „self-destructive“ and a „collective suicide“ that will shorten the lifespan of the elderly and should not be accepted by society. Watch the full interview.

I'll leave that one without comment. Wink wink ;-)

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 21 2020 17:46 utc | 550

Meanwhile the US criminal regime is ramping up sanctions against Iran and Venezuela, Pompous said: ¨Coronavirus Won't Save You From Sanctions", and "Our policy of maximum pressure on the regime continues"¨

In the midst of the biggest health disaster in the last century those criminals continue targeting one of the most stricken countries in the world and preventing they can buy health care products from outsie

They should be summary judged in Nüremberg and hanged with a piano string

Also two days ago they have threatened the judges and the families of the ICC:

Well we'll wait, Karma is a bitch

Posted by: DFC | Mar 21 2020 17:58 utc | 551

I found this extremely interesting considering *Chloroquine* has been mentioned by many here the past few weeks.
This was published less than 2 hrs ago!
Best thing is, in Sweden one can actually 'talk directly with the top people' by just a telephone-call.
I've done it many times and almost always get very very close to the top-dog-directly.
Here's everyone's chance to...set-the-record-straight for the Swedish Medical Specialists.

"Malaria drugs are inserted in corona patients
Published today 16:58

The drug chlorophobe phosphate, which has long been used for malaria, has started to be used against the coronavirus in patients at Karolinska Hospital in Huddinge and Södersjukhuset. But according to the Swedish Medical Products Agency, there are still no reliable studies that show that it works.

There is as yet no vaccine against the corona virus, but several medicines have been highlighted as potential tools to fight the virus. One of them is the drug chlorophobe phosphate phosphate, which has been used for over fifty years to prevent malaria, but which may also have antiviral effects.

Chlorophoc infosfat has now been desified to fight the coronavirus in patients at both Södersjukhuset in Stockholm and Karolinska Hospital in Huddinge, where many severe corona sufferers are being cared for. In Huddinge, the drug has been used for some time, while Södersjukhuset began its trials on Friday. The medicine is already used in several parts of Europe.
Judged to be risk-free – but weak evidence of the effect so far

Since the drug has been used in humans for decades, it is considered relatively risk-free to use – but there are still no reliable data to show that it actually works, according to the Swedish Medical Products Agency.

"It's a long shot that you do because you don't have anything proven effective to take to, and the safety profile is such that the gamble doesn't look like it's going to pose any serious risks," says Filip Josephson, a doctor and investigator at the Swedish Medical Products Agency.

"There is a publication from China that says chloroquine is great, but we have not been able to find any publications where data to substantiate that claim is presented. No one seems to have seen this data. In conclusion, one can say that the idea is speculative – there is no evidence of that, says Filip Josephson.
"Working out large volumes very quickly will cost some"

In Sweden, chloroinfophobes are produced by the company Recipharm, which in recent weeks has seen more than tenfold sales – but from a low level. According to Carl-Johan Spak, who is responsible for strategic investments at Recipharm, several authorities have inquired about the company's delivery possibilities.

"It is important to underline that this can be a fantastic opportunity, but it needs to be handled in the right way. It's not self-care, it's about doctors giving it to the right patients. But working out large volumes very quickly will cost a lot and require good cooperation with the authorities in order for it to be possible, and I think we have that," says Carl-Johan Spak.

How It Is Hoped That The Medicine Will Work
The hope and hypothesis is that chlorophobephobes affect the infected cells in the body in such a way that it becomes more difficult for the virus to replicate inside the cells. Like other potential medicines, positive results with chlorophobe phosphate against corona have been seen in so-called in vitro studies, i.e. in test tubes. Such an examination can be carried out in such a way that one infects a cell in a test tube with coronavirus and then treats the cell with the drug it wants to investigate – in this case chlorophobe phosphate.

Even if you see positive results there, it does not mean that the medicine works safely in patients. The reason is that a human body simply contains very many different types of cells in different organs – so many that it is difficult to test in a normal laboratory. It remains to be seen whether the drug reaches into the infected cells in sufficient concentration, with the doses considered safe.
Source: Jorma Hinkula, Professor of Molecular Virology at Linköping University.

Lucas Brischetto
Published 21 March 2020 at 16:58"

PS. I have made 0-zero corrections on the bing-translation, so as to not to be accused of 'fabricating-fake-news'.
Try another translator-app if you want.
If anyone wants 1, 2, 3 words translated to an am.colloquial english, just ask & specify.

Posted by: Veritas X- | Mar 21 2020 18:01 utc | 552

Hospital doc, I quote you "40% of the severe pulmonary syndrome are younger than 54"
Would that be the case if these people had been hospitalized when the first symptoms occurred (cough/sore throat or fever) ? Or have they been in hospitals with the first symptoms?
In France it is clear that people are accepted in hospitals when they have been sick for ca 7-10 days, i.e. after 2 episodes of strong fever (for which they are told to stay home and take paracetamol and not tested) and when they start developing the breathing difficulties.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 21 2020 18:03 utc | 553

Never say never.
Would it be insane to release a bioweapon? Yes, but who says we're dealing with sane people?
Was this sane?
This happened during my childhood. Winnipeg had inexplicably high rates of bowel cancer and bowel disease in the 60s, 70s and 80s. I lost friends and relatives to bowel diseases.
Was this the cause? No one will ever know.
Never underestimate the psychopaths who govern us.

Posted by: Curmudgeon | Mar 21 2020 18:06 utc | 554

re: dennis | Mar 21 2020 17:14 utc @ 547

I can assure you Professor Olle Johansson from Karolinska Institute in Stockholm is 100% credible.
He knows what 5G is, among other things.
Cheers & listen read all you can what Olle says.

Posted by: Veritas X- | Mar 21 2020 18:07 utc | 555

>Republican congressman calls on Trump to make China forgive US debt

What a dope. He might change his mind if China decides to get rid of their US debt by dumping a trillion dollars of US treasury bonds on The Market.

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Mar 21 2020 18:08 utc | 556

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 21 2020 17:17 utc | 548

The Feds lost control and threw in the towel. All the printed $trillions will not save the house built on sand.

I read many are blaming China that they hid and lied.

While China may have finally tamped down coronavirus to manageable levels within their borders, the fact remains that they initially lied about the virus while actively suppressing early information that may have saved countless lives, according to Dr. Michael Pillsbury, Director for Chinese Strategy at the Hudson Institute and adviser to President Trump.

"Everybody who wants to can just go online and look at January 14th - the WHO website. You'll see the WHO say 'China says there is no human-to-human transmission,'" said Pullsbury.

"Now that was not true. They already knew there was human transmission. And the next day, 20 Chinese came in the White House - with President Trump, Henry Kissinger, Lou Dobbs, myself, we all saw the Chinese up close. Some of them could have been carrying it," he added.[.]

Here is a question for the evil doctor: Is this a hapstance that CDC was getting prepared in October - November 2019?
I will search if CDC published an Offer Tender for the test kits, ventilators. Seems not.

Hmmmm!!! Curious minds. See this job recruitment for:

Public Health Advisor (Quarantine Program) Apply now.

Job ID HHS-CDC-D3-20-10640010
Date posted 11/15/2019
Location Dallas, Texas, El Paso, Texas, Houston, Texas, Seattle, Washington, Anchorage, Alaska, Los Angeles, California, San Diego, California, San Francisco, California, Miami, Florida, Atlanta, Georgia, Honolulu, Hawaii, Chicago, Illinois, Boston, Massachusetts, Detroit, Michigan, Minneapolis, Minnesota, Newark, New Jersey, New York, New York, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, San Juan
Department: Department of Health And Human Services
Agency: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
Job Announcement Number: HHS-CDC-D3-20-10640010
SALARY RANGE: $51440.0 to $93077.0/Per Year
OPEN PERIOD: 2019-11-15 to 2020-05-15

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) is the agency Americans trust with their lives. As a global leader in public health, CDC is the nation's premier health promotion, prevention, and preparedness agency. Whether we are protecting the American people from public health threats, researching emerging diseases, or mobilizing public health programs with our domestic and international partners, we rely on our employees to make a real difference in the health and well-being of people here and around the world. This position is located in the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), National Center for Emerging & Zoonotic Infectious Diseases (NCEZID), Division of Global Migration and Quarantine (DGMQ), Quarantine and Border Health Services Branch (QBHS) within various locations. Salary may be adjusted to include a Cost of Living Allowance (COLA) of 10.64% for Honolulu, Hawaii. [.]

Serves as a project representative for a program responsible for preventing the importation and spread of communicable diseases.


"Assist in planning and implementing a program for preventing the importation of communicable diseases from abroad and spread of these diseases domestically.", "Monitor disease trends and consults with senior leaders to ensure that appropriate measures are taken to prevent the introduction/spread of communicable diseases by travelers, etiologic agents or vectors.", "Provide technical assistance, consultation and guidance to national, state and/or[.]

Those of us thinking COVID-19 will peak and economic life returned to normal in 6 months; plan on 18 months.

Posted by: Likklemore | Mar 21 2020 18:24 utc | 557

TT @556

What astounds me is how these obviously ignorant and dopey people get to be congressmen.

I've seen many examples of this sort of thing.

Posted by: arby | Mar 21 2020 18:32 utc | 558

@Veritas X #552
What Rud Istvan noted was that the function of chloroquine phosphate/hydroxychloroquine is such that it should be used early on.
As I noted in my post - given the nCOV disease time line, it doesn't make sense the chloroquine phosphate would itself do anything for late stage (i.e. hospitalized) patients. Even if it stops future infections as it seems it could, this doesn't fix existing damage including cells damaged by nCOV already, ongoing infections/pneumonia by other viruses, bacteria and fungi, edema or sepsis.
The naming differences are clearly just a translation/alphabet issue.
And note: hydroxychloroquine is just a different formulation for chloroquine phosphate. The rheumatoid arthritis page I looked at lists them both together, noting that dosage should be as follows:

Form: Hydroxychloroquine: 200 mg tablet (155 mg base) Chloroquine: 250 mg tablet (150 mg base)

Hydroxychloroquine: 5 mg/kg lean body weight. The usual initial dose is 400 mg/day (once daily or in divided doses). Dose may be reduced once a clinical response is achieved.
Chloroquine: 2-3 mg/kg lean body weight; usually not more than 250 mg daily


The cost is also reasonable: $35 for 60 tablets with prescription, $55 without. Given its long history of safe use, the known dosing guidelines, the likelihood that the drug needs to be taken early (at first symptoms) and the low cost, this seems like a low risk way to address early nCOV infection: low chance of financial/health loss and promising benefits if used early.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 21 2020 18:46 utc | 559

@arby 557
They are only as ignorant and dopey as the people who elect them.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Mar 21 2020 18:47 utc | 560

Blue Dotterel | Mar 21 2020 18:47 utc | 559 Elections

Do not buy that, it's nonsense.

"They are only as ignorant and dopey as the people who elect them. " implies the assumption that elections are what they are not. It's a sort of lie to accept the idea that US elections are anything other than a deception, a con, to induce the belief in the voters the idea that they are responsible to the actions of the few who rule them. It's a psycop.

Of course at PTA election may be honest...but Buyden won? C'mon Friend. Election = psycop. Say it.

Posted by: Walter | Mar 21 2020 19:06 utc | 561

From the National Post story cited by Curmudgeon:

On their own soil, the U.S. Army experiments were even more severe. Radioactive material was injected into hospital patients without their consent and pregnant women in Nashville were given a radioactive cocktail to ingest so that researchers could determine if it could be passed on to their babies.

Children were fed radioactive oatmeal as part of a “science club,” Martino-Taylor said, and were given Mickey Mouse watches and baseball tickets for their continued participation.

Uncle Sam has shown over and over that it is led by psychopaths who consider all people to be disposable. I have no opinion on whether the evil virus is/isn't a bio-weapon, but Dear Leaders are certainly capable of making and using them.

The second-in-commands who implement evil orders, "Just Following Orders", are Just As Guilty. For the enlisted grunts who handle and disperse poisons, their situation is difficult, since they are basically property of the state, and disobedience includes severe penalties such as inflicted on Chelsea Manning.

If Uncle Sam shows up with some magic injection to prevent the Evil Virus, I will not consent.

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Mar 21 2020 19:07 utc | 562

Trailer Trash | Mar 21 2020 19:07 utc | 561 Yewbetcha! But that's the watered-down version... We both know it's vomitgaggingevil.

Posted by: Walter | Mar 21 2020 19:10 utc | 563

Hello somebody.
I agree with your post and I'm very interested in your remark about having been host to Covid-19.Could you be more specific please about when?
It looks like if Alsace,France follows Lombardia, Italy,in the extent of the virus' spread.
Myself,on reading about dry cough,light fever and feeling weak for about a week,I thought like wise,gee I think I had that.I had a gig in a crowded café,on saturday 25 januari and the next one would be in another place two weeks later,8th februari.But three days before that date our female singer got the flu and heavy bronchitis,and the gig was cancelled by the group.It was about the same time that my dry cough startedwhich lasted about three days,but without continuity.Woke up once in sweat,and felt more or less exhausted for a few days more.Even without Corona being a newsitem I would have thought the origin of my "cold" to be the musical evening in a hot café,while outside it froze on leaving and putting the gear in the cars.One exposes one self more.Now the major outbreak in Mulhouse has been determined to have its origin in an evangelical gathering of some 2500 people in Mulhouse,from 14 februari to 21 february.That's about 100 km from where I live as the crow flies.There is also the Mulhouse Basel Freiburg International Airport.So I suppose in case this has anything to do with Covid-19 at all I got it on the evening of the 25 januari.Not the slightest idea if anyone had returned from China though,me not being acquainted with the bar's customers.Anyway it would be nice,and could be helpful for the evaluation of the wide spectre of suffering from almost nothing to suffocation with pneumonia .I mean it would be a good thing that people themselves can make out if their personal covid-19 experience needs doctoring or not.It would mean less panic.

Posted by: willie | Mar 21 2020 19:10 utc | 564

Will probably be closer to 1000 deaths in Italy this night. Horrid!
Could Italy push back at this moment?
Lock down must be imposed throughout regions!

Posted by: Zanon | Mar 21 2020 19:12 utc | 565

All people over 65 and with chronic illnesses have been effectively placed under house arrest as midnight tonight in Turkey. They are banned from leaving their homes for any reason.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Mar 21 2020 19:14 utc | 566


Yeah, I heard all of those: Italians are super old ( they are, but the rest of the Europe are not spring chickens either and the Iranians have one of the youngest population , the air is so polluted( until 1 month ago it was not ? , Italy is the only industrial country in Europe??) We see how' bad the air' is in NYC right now. One family in Nj had 3 siblings in their 50"s dead recently , no prior medical problems, I guess the air was bad there also...

So I followed your advice, clicked on the link and start 'crunching the numbers'.. One study, not published apparently, comes up with a mortality for Cov of 0.04. If we do a little math, that results in 12.5 million infected in North Italy to correlate with almost 5000 dead folks ( 800 only in the the last 24 hrs...I know, its just flu- talkin' about not missing the updates...) . The problem is there are no much more than 10 mil in the North and they are of course far far bein 100% infected.

So, It is likely that your Swiss doc does not know what he is talking about.

A bunch of "Google experts", that never cared for a patient that died with flu and never signed their death certificate, are 'crunching the numbers', without knowing that the vast majority of the reported flu death are in follks with terminal health problems. Stage4 chf, copd on bipap at home and so on, does not equivalate with Cov's reported problems of hypertension and diabetes...meanwhile, army trucks are hauling the bodies to the non stop cremation..." just like the flu"....

@553: most Cov patients are not admitted to the hospital, as they do not have severe symptoms. Once sob and in need of oxygen, they have to come in. We see the bad stuff developing in 5 to 7 days from the first symptoms.

Posted by: hospital doc | Mar 21 2020 19:25 utc | 567


you are talking out your ass. you have no idea what is happening in Italy so your completely uninformed comment about there needing to be a lockdown is quite insulting to everyone who is pretty much under house arrest.

Posted by: dan of steele | Mar 21 2020 19:25 utc | 568

@ C1UE 337 and 373

Link for data on USA population 1790-1957

Turns out the median in 1920 was 25.8 male 24.7 female

Try the Safeway on Monterrey Blvd. reasonably well stocked, not much crowding on weekdays.

Posted by: lone plateau | Mar 21 2020 19:38 utc | 569

re: c1ue | Mar 21 2020 18:46 utc @ 558

Most important with my post, as You would notice directly is ""There is a publication from China that says chloroquine is great, but we have not been able to find any publications where data to substantiate that claim is presented. No one seems to have seen this data. In conclusion, one can say that the idea is speculative – there is no evidence of that, says Filip Josephson".
They can't find any data from the current cov19 outbreak!
i.e. no data available!

I'm confident the Swedish & Finnish medical specialists will do just fine.
Believe or not, I have very high regard for them all, generally speaking.
Regards X-

Posted by: Veritas X- | Mar 21 2020 19:44 utc | 570

dan of steele

Italy just released their numbers it is safe to say it will likely hit 1000 coming hours and the way to fight is by lockdown, why are you against that?

Posted by: Zanon | Mar 21 2020 19:51 utc | 571

@lone plateau #569
Thanks for the info - I do wonder if the 1918 flu drove the median age up or down...
As for the Safeway on Monterrey - I don't drive, but I'll figure out how to get there via public transit and check it out. I'm not a hoarder but I have a significant stash because I buy when things are on sale. Just wanted to get some rice...

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 21 2020 20:17 utc | 572

@ 566 hospital doc.. thank you again for addressing the bullshit..

Posted by: james | Mar 21 2020 20:30 utc | 573

Some Indian researchers found four genome sequences in the novel coronavirus that can also be found in the HIV virus. They self published their findings in a paper that was not peer reviewed. We discussed that paper in detail on February 1 in our second post on the virus and we strongly expressed our doubt about its veracity. A few days later the paper was retracted by its authors after other scientists had pointed out that the lengths of each of the four sequences they had compared were way too small to be of statistical significance”

“– Another peculiar characteristic is COVID-19’s similarities to HIV. And so although another since-retracted pre-print noted several very short genomic sequences in COVID-19’s spike-protein gene that look far more similar to sequences found in HIV than to other coronaviruses – critics quickly pointed out that the shared homology didn’t reach statistical significance. However a closer look at the data reveals that there were a few small shared genomic segments that, despite being physically separated from each other along each strand of DNA, all worked together to code for the Wuhan Strain’s protein-spike’s crucial receptor binding site. Something that is highly unlikely to have happened by chance. And despite most of its protein-spike being shared with SARS, these substituted segments weren’t shared at all – nor were they found in any other coronavirus. One possible but likely reason for these HIV-like segments is that they were meant to be epitopes, or molecular flags meant to mark intruders for a vaccine to target – meaning the Wuhan Strain was built as a monster for a specific vaccine to hunt. It is mathematically possible for this to happen in nature – but only in a ten-thousand bats chained to ten-thousand Petri dishes and given until infinity sense. Alternatively, this pattern could also be produced by infecting a room full of ferrets with a bespoke coronavirus and sifting through the wreckage for your genomic needle.”

On February 3rd I posted:
“"Uncanny similarity of unique inserts in the 2019-nCoV spike protein to HIV-1 gp120 and Gag"
This is a SARS type coronavirus. Its spike glycoprotein contains 4 insertions. The insertions are in a row. None have been seen in another coronavirus (low probability). All 4 are present in all human source samples of the Wuhan coronavirus - all four of which match up to HIV-1 sequences. They do not represent a single unbroken sequence from HIV-1; they come from four different places, but in this new coronavirus they’re all together (low probability). They each enable the new coronavirus to perform a task making the base coronavirus more survivable and more effective, as they are critical for the virus to identify and latch on to host cells, and for viral assembly (low probability for all four to be useful). It is considered unlikely a coronavirus would mutate to pick up 4 novel insertions so quickly, and it is obviously highly unlikely all 4 would match HIV-1 sequences, and there are no useless incidental insertions. Even if we do not parse these into separate events, there are unquestionably no less than three low probability events here with respect to the consideration that this virus arose spontaneously in nature. The researchers, at least some of whom presumably have more than a passing familiarity with virology, which is not likely to be the case with respect to the participants on this forum, have indicated a certain degree of surprise over these low probability events. That would arguably mean they expect it would be at least one in ten or less that they would encounter them or they would not register surprise let alone write an article that could at a minimum subject them to international embarrassment. In other words, people who are familiar with these phenomena are registering a reaction indicative of at least a “one in a thousand” surprise. If virologists believe it is a one in a thousand we would see this happening naturally, and the choices are a seafood market (which some argue is a discredited theory), or the only category 4 lab in China…draw your own conclusions. But keep in mind the question presented is not “what is the % probability the coronavirus was engineered,” but rather “is it more or less likely that the coronavirus was engineered”? These researchers are indicating it is a proverbial lead pipe cinch that it was engineered, using technical and polite language.”

The length of the four chains in question, while indicating each of the four bears no distinctive structure that could act as a signature indicating origin on its own, is a red herring argument. The issue is that there are four, in a row whereas they could have arisen anywhere in the enormous chain, that all four have HIV type function, and all four are in fact found in HIV. The authors who claim they have “clearly” debunked this argument have far lesser credentials than the original Indian authors, and are far less professional and polite in making their claims. Gratuitous use of the term “clearly” is a red flag of weak arguments.

“There is zero evidence that the virus is from a Chinese or U.S. or other (weapon) laboratory and the claim actually makes no sense. The genome of the virus consists of more then 23,000 'letters'. It is significantly different than the genome of other known viruses. (Added:) It is not lab made:”
We offer a perspective on the notable features of the SARS-CoV-2 genome and discuss scenarios by which they could have arisen. Our analyses clearly show that SARS-CoV-2 is not a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus."

To artificially create such a complex entity and to test all its variants would have been a program of the size of the Manhattan project and would have cost billions.
Weapon researchers are sane people with a limited budget. They look for methods to defeat an enemy. A virus that affects all humans indiscriminately but kills mostly very old ones would have no military value.”

How about a room full of ferrets instead? This is not something speculative. This is something that has already been accomplished – they’re simply getting better at it.

“This report is the product of a collaboration between a retired professional scientist with dozens of peer-reviewed publications and 30 years of experience in genomic sequencing and analysis, who worked at the Theoretical Biology Division of the Los Alamos National Laboratory and later helped design several ubiquitous bioinformatic software tools, as well as a former NSA counterterrorism analyst. It considers whether the Wuhan Strain of coronavirus (COVID-19) is the result of naturally emergent mutations against the possibility that it may be a bio-engineered strain – directly altered by genetic manipulation, subject to artificially-guided evolutionary selection, or both – most likely released into the public by accident since China’s rate of occupational accidents is about ten-times higher than America’s, and some twenty-times more than Europe’s, the only other regions with high-level virology labs….
Beijing has had four known accidental leaks of the SARS virus in recent years, so there is absolutely no reason to assume that this strain of coronavirus from Wuhan didn’t accidentally leak out as well….
Given that this outbreak was said to begin in late December when most bat species in the region are hibernating and the Chinese horseshoe bat’s habitat covers an enormous swath of the region containing scores of cities and hundreds of millions people, the fact that this Wuhan Strain of coronavirus, denoted as COVID-19, emerged in close proximity to the only BSL-4 virology lab in China, which in turn was staffed with at least two Chinese scientists – Zhengli Shi and Xing-Yi Ge – both virologists who had previously worked at an American lab which had already bio-engineered an incredibly virulent strain of bat coronavirus – the accidental release of a bio-engineered virus from Wuhan’s virology lab cannot be automatically discounted, especially when the Wuhan Strain’s unnatural genomic signals are considered….
– In 2002, Stony Brook first assembled a DNA virus from scratch, building a polio-virus, and providing proof-of-concept for the creation, alteration, and manipulation of DNA-virus genomes. Two years prior, a separate team had already built an simpler RNA-virus from scratch – choosing to engineer a coronavirus from the ground up, and even swapping out its vital spike-protein genes to make it more infectious. And a generation earlier, artificially enhancing selection by intentionally infecting countless series of lab animals with different viruses is understood to have created the H1N1 Swine Flu. Its Franken-genome has a mysterious untraceable genetic parentage and a “clear unnatural origin,” and H1N1 became the poster-child for a moratorium against gain-of-function research – experimentation that seeks to increase a pathogen’s virulence, creating a more effective double-edged sword to counter and learn from. A ban that was in place for years, but was recently lifted by the American government. In the case of H1N1, it wasn’t a question of if it’d escaped from a research laboratory, only whether it’d been designed as part of a weapons system, or been part of a vaccine trial….
– By 2015, conducting research that was met with an enormous amount of concern, scientists at UNC had successfully created a “chimeric, SARS-like virus” by altering the viral genome of a Chinese bat coronavirus’s spike-protein genes – sequences that code for the spikes that poke out from surface of viruses and allow them to unlock entry into hosts, in this case making the bio-engineered coronavirus incredibly contagious. This research raised eyebrows since it was clearly gain-of-function research, a practice banned in America from 2014 until December 2017 when NIH lifted the ban, specifically to allow research on this sort of virus. Looking at UNC’s gain-of-function research on coronavirus spike-proteins, which received its funding just before the ban was implemented and was only allowed to go forward following a special review, a virologist with the Louis Pasteur Institute of Paris warned: “If the [new] virus escaped, nobody could predict the trajectory.”…
– Another exceptional and atypical trait of the Wuhan Strain COVID-19 is that not only does it form its own clade, it’s calculated to have diverged from SARS and its other sister coronaviruses some 260 years ago. And yet in all that time, while it every other branch of the coronavirus tree was busy branching-off into countless variants, if it emerged naturally, COVID-19 somehow spent a quarter of a millennium as the lone known example of its clade, somehow not mutating into related lineages in all that time. Another simpler explanation is that this apparent hereditary distance and genetic uniqueness is the just the result of being altered in a lab. And although two distinct strains of COVID-19 have been identified, there’s no reason to believe this mutational differentiation happened before contact with humans in the winter of 2019. Additionally, when neutral sites, the specific points in the genome which most reliably show evolutionary change, were examined: COVID-19 looks even more evolutionarily distant from any of its possible relatives, which would make sense if all that evolutionary distance was gained by artificially accelerated generational turn-over in a lab.
– Also giving credence to the idea that the Wuhan Strain was bio-engineered is the existence of a patent application registered to a scientist from Wuhan that looks to modulate a coronavirus’ spike-protein genes – the precise region altered by Zhengli Shi at UNC to make a hyper-virulent strain of coronavirus, and whose alteration and adaptation would explain the Wuhan Strain’s unusual behavior as discussed above.”

There is no question in my mind Covid-19 was bio-engineered, there is no question in my mind Moon of Alabama is among the most valuable Internet resources for information and geo-political analysis, and there is no question in my mind b will not censor this post.

Posted by: Bruce | Mar 21 2020 20:44 utc | 574

@c1ue #532

I think the methodology of comparing serious cases/active cases has some real holes, as it is time dependent. The reason is that serious cases tend to last longer than less serious cases. The only situation where it is valid is when there are lots of recent and new cases. Granted, that's the situation in most of the world. But in a situation where it is not expanding, or expanding slowly, that number comes to disproportionately weight the serious cases because of their longer duration. The greatest example of that is with China, where there is a trickle of new infection, with a large holdover of serious cases from the peak of the crisis. It seems a more valid comparison would be serious cases/total cases. But all that said, the portion of serious cases in Germany is anomalously low by either method of comparison. Given the ballooning rate of spread in the USA, the low rate of serious cases is also a bright spot - thus far. If the proportion should change, it could easily break the critical care in places like New York.

Posted by: Thirdeye | Mar 21 2020 20:47 utc | 575
must see
Eng subtitles available with the parameter wheel

Posted by: Mina | Mar 21 2020 20:48 utc | 576

PeterAU1 #285

I would be happy if all wild cats were infected. And thats as far as it went.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 21 2020 21:00 utc | 577

hospital doc
I quote you "most Cov patients are not admitted to the hospital, as they do not have severe symptoms. Once sob and in need of oxygen, they have to come in. We see the bad stuff developing in 5 to 7 days from the first symptoms."
5-7 days after the first symptoms, that is to say around 10 days minimum after incubation.
Would you say that countries where patients seem to survive more (Germany, Switzerland, Japan, Denmark, Norway... some of these had cases in the very first weeks after China) have admitted the cases before it came to respiratory problems ?

I find the Turkish move smart: lockdown only for the +65 and people with chronicle diseases and municipality organizing care for isolated such people .

Posted by: Mina | Mar 21 2020 21:25 utc | 578

Zanon, 571
In some countries the way is to stay 2 m from people you don't live with. It works too.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 21 2020 21:41 utc | 579

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 21 2020 15:18 utc | 532

> Japan - they don't even shake hands. Bowing involves no physical contact, and Japanese would wear masks when getting cold/flu even before HK flu/SARS1, so it is possible that nCOV just isn't spreading.

i agree it might not be spreading but ... it is very unlikely ...

a family still shares baths with everyone ... i was taught to shower first then dip in the small bath tub, i don't know if families still follow this though ... the water in the tub is not drained until the last person uses it. in sento (public baths) you see people going in the big baths without even showering!

the coughing etiquette of Japanese inside trains are not very good. with masks it is even more bad, because with the mask they think they're invulnerable. that is if you can get masks. mid-Feb panic buying snatched most of the masks (actually for kafunsho or pollen allergy) off the shelves. it's still very hard to find masks nowadays.

trains are still packed in the morning ... i am lucky that i can walk from my apartment to my office. soon it will be back to normal. without a government mandate, the companies will be easing the things they implemented (telework, staggered working hours). grown-ups telling kids what to do. no pro-activity.

also the time for the yearly sakura blooms has arrived ... and it attract crowds from all ages ... some even travel to view famous spots.

Posted by: r | Mar 21 2020 22:18 utc | 580

john @ 549

Thanks for noticing that that link has daily updates! Yes, the updates demonstrate that there are many confounding factors that have been ignored by the corporate media, in their attempt to give the public the bum's rush towards massive corporate bailouts and maybe martial law.

The most interesting stats on that link are the comparisons of the covid death numbers to normal mortality. Also, the fact that flu season was mild this year means there were more marginally healthy people for the virus to kill.

Lastly, the fact that ICUs in Lombardy normally run at 85-90% full and that a similar overwhelming happened a few years ago in another flu outbreak.

I am not saying the disease is not serious. I am saying that the reaction to it and the publicity about it screams "Disaster Capitalism". The government is interested in saving Wall St and Boeing, not Joe Sixpack.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 21 2020 22:36 utc | 581

Most people are observing the decorum and willingness to listen to reasonable arguments that MoA has been known for. But a few people have simply seem to have closed their minds.

james @ 573

@ 566 hospital doc.. thank you again for addressing the bullshit..


dan of steele @ 568

you are talking out your ass. you have no idea what is happening in Italy so your completely uninformed comment about there needing to be a lockdown is quite insulting to everyone who is pretty much under house arrest

Look, things are not crystal clear statistics-wise, plus the related non-medical issue of Disaster Capitalism should not be thrown out with the bathwater of the medical details.

So, can we please stop lobbing "bullshit" and "talking out your ass" at each other? Everyone can cite one or another scientific study. But even those studies are either behind the facts or inconclusive. There are tons of confounding factors.

It would be sad to see this place degenerate into tribalism.

Sorry. Somebody has to be the civility police here.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 21 2020 22:50 utc | 582

It would be sad to see this place degenerate into tribalism.

Sorry. Somebody has to be the civility police here.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 21 2020 22:50 utc | 582


Good for you!

Posted by: AntiSpin | Mar 21 2020 23:20 utc | 583

@ 582 john brewster... i mostly agree with you.. however, what i have found is when someone addresses a comment to the said poster who posts the info, often times that is the last we ever hear from the poster.. there is no rebuttal... it is true there are a lot of variables here with covid 19 and lots is still unknown.. i think my thing is to err on the side of caution in this situation... i really appreciate it when someone says something that conforms with my thinking on this in a more rationale way then i am generally able to communicate... like antispin says - good for you... i don't call bullshit too often either fwiw..

Posted by: james | Mar 21 2020 23:44 utc | 584

Chill Comrades and others, well, we're all Comrades, like it or not, at b's symposium...but the situation, the circumstances inclines people to become the fool.


How about> "tom lehrer we will all go together when we go" (yt)

Armageddon at Anoxia is risibley stupid, a parade of clown and pervert leading into the pit. How Jolly! (Sez Wally).

Seriously, be nice fellas an' - ah- whatever...

Blunt is good, honest.

Mean, malice, emotion belong at the Dewdrop Inn, not at b's salon.

Posted by: Walter | Mar 21 2020 23:47 utc | 585

Bruce #574

There is no question in my mind Covid-19 was bio-engineered, there is no question in my mind Moon of Alabama is among the most valuable Internet resources for information and geo-political analysis, and there is no question in my mind b will not censor this post.

Thank you Bruce. I am pleased that b published his analysis and I am happy to disagree with some of it. That is the privilege that b grants us all without censure. He, like us, prefer a reasoned non aggressive discourse where there is often vigorous debate and disagreement. Its a free world here to that extent.

The way b expressed his information was bound to get an impassioned retort from many readers. That is how it is. We all live in a limited environment and are all observed. I trust we are all capable of assessing the information and researching further.

Thank you b for posting a MIGHTY evocative blog.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 21 2020 23:53 utc | 586

ot - @ 585 walter.. what is the dewdrop inn? there was a famous music venue in new orleans called the dewdrop inn fwiw!,_Louisiana)

Posted by: james | Mar 22 2020 0:09 utc | 587

john brewster 581

If it were a small number or a block of countries that seemed to be taking extreme measures, it would be possible to allow that they may be over reacting or have interior motives.
When this is somewhat uniform across the globe, across geo-political blocks, we then have to look seriously at the dangers of this virus.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 1:02 utc | 588

@H.Schmalz #549

BTW, as far as my count goes, Germany has been the only country allowed to repatriate its gold from Fort Whatever

I thought that it took Germany several years to get back what it asked for, and that that was only part of what was supposedly stored in Fort Knox for them. The country that got prompt return of all its stored gold on request was The Netherlands. Some people conjectured that the reason that they, and only they, got what they were legally entitled to from the USA was connected to services rendered in the matter of MH17.

Posted by: kgbgb | Mar 22 2020 1:43 utc | 589

"I am not saying the disease is not serious. I am saying that the reaction to it and the publicity about it screams "Disaster Capitalism". The government is interested in saving Wall St and Boeing, not Joe Sixpack." john brewster@581

So what you are saying is that the publicity, which surely comes before the reaction (though the process is dialectical) is designed to create an atmosphere in which the US government can save Wall St and give Boeing money.
Why do you think that they need such a smokescreen? And isn't this pandemic which, I take it you agree is real in Iran, Italy and China, for example an incredibly (I use the word advisedly) complex and dangerous-particularly to the economy and public finance- means to use?
You seem to me to be a sensible and reasonable person so I can only assume that I am misinterpreting what your position is.
Mine is that the pandemic is real, though its severity cannot be known yet. That it was predictable-as a natural occurrence in this sort of society. That instead of planning to take it in stride governments sold the reserves that they were meant to save-the spare capacity in hospitals, the reserve personnel required every winter and in some years desperately needed, even the proper nutrition of the poor, children and the most vulnerable (cancelling the Food Stamp programme being symptomatic politically).

The reality is that the need for Disaster Capitalism, envisioned by Naomi Klein has passed: it is yesterday's warning. The 'disasters' came and were used as excuses to privatise and steal. It is no longer necessary to attack the Unions, they exist in name only, there are no more strikes, there is no more threat to 'management' in production. Health and safety regulations have been loosened to the point of evaporation. Environmental safeguards have been dispensed with. The "Vietnam syndrome', which allegedly kept the Pentagon from martial adventures, is forgotten: imperialism goes to war at the drop of a hat. And it drops the hats.
The government, which is difficult to distinguish from Wall St, of which Boeing is a plaything, is actually going to find it much more difficult in the current crisis to save the system. As its efforts in the market have shown it seems to have lost control of the markets because of the pandemic's effects on them. It can no longer issue its bromides of 'normalcy'. It is in uncharted waters.

It did not summon up this crisis, on the contrary this crisis could-as TPTB know- overwhelm both government and neo-liberalism. In fact neo-liberalism, in practice is pretty well ended, not by design but by public demand for massive expenditure of moneys not borrowed at interest or pledged against the taxes.
A new era is opening and not because the ruling class wanted one but because it lost control of the very system that it had cobbled together to facilitate its plunder.
The crown lies in the dust, whoever picks it up will rule.

Posted by: bevin | Mar 22 2020 2:40 utc | 590

@ bevin | Mar 22 2020 2:40 utc | 592 who ended with
A new era is opening and not because the ruling class wanted one but because it lost control of the very system that it had cobbled together to facilitate its plunder.
The crown lies in the dust, whoever picks it up will rule.

I agree that a new era is opening but think the jury is still out on the ruling class losing enough control that global private finance, that I keep railing about, will be abandoned all at once, if at all, which it should in a sane world.

But we are not in a sane world. We are not in a world in which everyone thinks about our species in an anthropological manner including context of history. We are not in a world in which the dictatorial effects of global private finance are made clear to the public. In fact the opposite occurs effectively on an ongoing comments here about how COVID-19 has caused the economic meltdown and not the opposite........

China has already picked up that crown you referred to but the transition to its wearing it will extend over a period that is hard to measure. I have a saying I like relative to this, "The future is here, it is just not evenly distributed".

Be well all and think big picture

Posted by: psychohistorian | Mar 22 2020 3:08 utc | 591

Perfidious commie lies and evil misinformation about Episode 373 – Medical Martial Law 2020 @ corbett dot com.

He's a dog, but usually clear-thinking and honest, right or slightly wrong...


Posted by: Walter | Mar 22 2020 3:16 utc | 592

Walter @ 497 -- "The Strategy (vs Russia) has changed, not the goal."

To which I can only ask what does it profit a bunch of people try to gain the whole world, and losing their soul in the trying?

And they may never gain their prize anyways.

Much wiser to help each other with a win-win approach to living on this beautiful blue planet.

Posted by: kiwiklown | Mar 22 2020 3:31 utc | 593

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 21 2020 11:33 utc | 487 -- "We the little Proles have no clue what cards the Big Boys are playing and which ones they played."

And includes some US Presidents who may not always know what the Big Boys are cooking up for him in the Big Bad Kitchen In The Basement... and so they hear, "Yes, Mr President, it was soooooo wrooooong to that we launched those missiles, but WHAT DOES IT MATTER NOW ?!?!?!!!?!?!?"

Posted by: kiwiklown | Mar 22 2020 3:34 utc | 594

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 21 2020 13:55 utc | 509 -- "Every country, well certainly in the west, there are many that simply ignore the rules to controlling the spread that think exactly the same."

The Chinese people remember famine, pestilence, drought, earthquake, flooding, war, other disasters, and out of an abundance of societal wisdom, consent to abide by their leaders' demands for social distancing. For that, their leaders are labelled "authoritarian"; their disease-fighting measures are "draconian" and the Chinese people is impliedly "subservient".

But the West believe that their "freedom" and their "democracy" has made them so exceptionally indispensable that they are immune from the laws of Nature. They are so "advanced" now that they do not need good governance. They only have to "vote" every four years, and they will go on eating other people's lunches forever.

We'll see.

Posted by: kiwiklown | Mar 22 2020 4:11 utc | 595

Likklemore @ 546; Trailer Trash @ 556; arby @ 558
"Republican congressman calls on Trump to make China forgive US debt"

That Congressman is less like a dope, and more like a street walker.

He is signalling his availability to be used by Big Money.

Not astounding at all for the "leadership" in the US.

Just business as usual.... never let a disaster go to waste.... and all that.

Hey, money is money.

Does not matter what you have to do to get it.

Posted by: kiwiklown | Mar 22 2020 5:33 utc | 596

@592 Bevin and Psycho

Wholeheartedly agree. Had a grand argument with my brother and nephew about the current globalist paradigm and I demonstrated it by running around a room trying to prop up falling things, with pantomime.

Now, the system has exhausted itself through artificial means and bogus economies. In the Matrix 2, there was a "keymaker" which allowed manipulation of the Matrix to serve those agents aware of its existence. What we have today with the current globalist paradigm is something akin to a "facilitator" (for lack of a better term) who is too fatigued to continue his work.

But as America is finally being squeezed to death, as we all knew was coming, do we want China to rule with the one ring? Isn't the lesson of the American Empire not to emulate it?

The end of empire and the reign of multi-polarity? Here at last?

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Mar 22 2020 6:04 utc | 597

Well I'm willing to go with this expert rather than the so called "ek-sperts". Here is a renown virologist Professor Sucharit Bhakdi who works in German. The man even dares to use the word "senseless" in the case of what Germany is doing while living and working there.

Corona virus COVID-19- hype and hysteria? Demystification of the nightmare!

Someone reminded me of the fact that the US has run this Game before. I suspect as a small scale test run for future use. It was done in 1976 when Pres. Ford LIED to the Americans that 1918 was repeating itself !!!! Lies, lies , lies .... until in the mind it become the Truth.
Liar Liar Pants On Fire

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 22 2020 6:42 utc | 598


I dont think so, it doesnt really work since the transmission easily spread 2 meters.
That is the reason governments move on to call to people to stay at home as much as possible.

Posted by: Zanon | Mar 22 2020 8:20 utc | 599

Posted by: kiwiklown | Mar 22 2020 4:11 utc | 598

But the West believe that their "freedom" and their "democracy" has made them so exceptionally indispensable that they are immune from the laws of Nature. They are so "advanced" now that they do not need good governance. They only have to "vote" every four years, and they will go on eating other people's lunches forever.

You have managed to summarize quite a bit of History in 3 sentences. Love it !!!

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 22 2020 9:52 utc | 600

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