Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 19, 2020

False Claims About The Novel Coronavirus And How To Debunk Them

Today China reported zero new domestic cases of novel coronavirus infections. It has beaten the epidemic just as we predicted early on. Other countries with still expanding epidemics will have to adopt all the measures China has taken to also win the fight.

Our extensive reporting about the novel cornonavirus has attracted many new commentators to this site. Unfortunately some of these, as well as some of the regulars, continue to spread disinformation and myths about the current pandemic and its causes.

To keep some level of quality at this site requires an aggressive countering of such comments. But our capacity to do so is limited. We do delete comments that are nonsensical or have been debunked and we do block people who insist on posting or reposting nonsense. But there are now many more comments per day than we can read. We therefore have to ask other commentators to counter the bad false ones.

Here are some of the false claims that are made about the pandemic and the facts needed to debunk them.

Myth:

The novel coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 is a Chinese virus that comes from bats. It infected people because Chinese people eat bats.

Facts:

The source of the virus is actually not known. The patient number 1, the person who first carried the virus, has not been found. The Wuhan wet market where exotic animals are sold was not the source of the outbreak:

The paper, written by a large group of Chinese researchers from several institutions, offers details about the first 41 hospitalized patients who had confirmed infections with what has been dubbed 2019 novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV). In the earliest case, the patient became ill on 1 December 2019 and had no reported link to the seafood market, the authors report. “No epidemiological link was found between the first patient and later cases,” they state. Their data also show that, in total, 13 of the 41 cases had no link to the marketplace. “That’s a big number, 13, with no link,” says Daniel Lucey, an infectious disease specialist at Georgetown University.

While the novel corona virus might be one that was originally carried by bats it is unlikely to have jumped from a bat to a human. The older SARS virus, which is somewhat similar to the novel coronavirus, originated from bats but first spread to other animals before mutating from there into a form that infects humans.

The only place where bats are regularly used as food is the Pacific island Palau which is more or less a U.S. colony. Videos showing Chinese citizens eating fruit bat soup were actually filmed on that island.

Myth:

The virus is related to HIV, the virus that causes aids.

Facts:

Some Indian researchers found four genome sequences in the novel coronavirus that can also be found in the HIV virus. They self published their findings in a paper that was not peer reviewed. We discussed that paper in detail on February 1 in our second post on the virus and we strongly expressed our doubt about its veracity. A few days later the paper was retracted by its authors after other scientists had pointed out that the lengths of each of the four sequences they had compared were way too small to be of statistical significance.

Myth:

Asian people are genetically more receptive for the novel coronavirus.

Fact:

The virus enters human cells by binding to the ACE-2 receptor on the cells hull. There were assertions that people in Asia have more ACE-2 receptors than people elsewhere. But detailed studies of various genome sequence databases have found no statistical basis for such claims. People of Asian, Caucasian or African heritage all have the same numbers of ACE-2 building elements and receptors. The virus will effect them equally.

Myth:

The virus originated from a military weapon research laboratory.

Facts:

There is zero evidence that the virus is from a Chinese or U.S. or other (weapon) laboratory and the claim actually makes no sense. The genome of the virus consists of more then 23,000 'letters'. It is significantly different than the genome of other known viruses. (Added:) It is not lab made:

We offer a perspective on the notable features of the SARS-CoV-2 genome and discuss scenarios by which they could have arisen. Our analyses clearly show that SARS-CoV-2 is not a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus.

To artificially create such a complex entity and to test all its variants would have been a program of the size of the Manhattan project and would have cost billions.

Weapon researchers are sane people with a limited budget. They look for methods to defeat an enemy. A virus that affects all humans indiscriminately but kills mostly very old ones would have no military value.

Myth:

Moon of Alabama has downplayed the danger of the virus.

Facts:

Our first post on the issue was headlined The Coronavirus - No Need To Panic. It discussed the infectiousness and fatality rate of the novel coronavirus disease in comparison to other virus caused diseases. We pointed out that it is less infectious and less deadly than for example SARS but never said that it is not dangerous at all. In fact the numbers we pointed out said the opposite.

The piece simple put the current epidemic into perspective. We have since posted a total of 15 detailed pieces on the pandemic. To claim that this is a downplaying of the issue is nonsensical.

---
Previous Moon of Alabama posts on the issue:

Posted by b on March 19, 2020 at 12:19 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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Mass burning of corpses... in Italy.

Convoy of Italian army trucks haul away corpses as local crematorium flooded with coronavirus dead (VIDEO)

The tables have turned indeed.

Posted by: vk | Mar 19 2020 18:06 utc | 101

It will be interesting to see what Chinese and Russian researchers have to say on the bug. As yet, no one knows where it come from.
The US researcher did mention a number of animals with similar cells or receptors where the bugs could live, cats being one of them...quite a good reservoir to spread the bug around with plenty of moggies running around the streets. But that doesn't seem to be happening.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 19 2020 18:12 utc | 102

@ b | Mar 19 2020 15:08 utc | 32

"@all I blocked John Chuckman and Amerikanski and deleted their comments."

Would that be the same John Chuckman who insists on typing his name and his article titles in all caps, thus indicating his superiority over all other commentators in existence?

Posted by: AntiSpin | Mar 19 2020 18:12 utc | 103

@ Posted by: Noirette | Mar 19 2020 18:04 utc | 100

Of course we don't have definitive data. We'll only have that once the pandemic is over and we have the time and resources to count the bodies and review the paperwork.

Nobody was bothering to do the counting and the collateral bureaucracy during WWII either - that didn't stop the Red Army from adjusting on the fly with the info they had and to win the war.

--//--

Meanwhile, the end of the gig-economy illusion takes place in America:

The Staggering Rise in Jobless Claims This Week

Posted by: vk | Mar 19 2020 18:14 utc | 104

From Pepe Escobar's VK space:

"CHINA HAS WON THE “PEOPLE’S WAR” AGAINST COVID-19 IN WUHAN.

"NOW IT’S SOFT POWER TIME.

"For a 5,000-year-old civilization-state horrified when it must confront instances of luan ('chaos'), there’s nothing more rejuvenating than post-chaos.
China is donating coronavirus test kits to Cambodia.
China sent planeloads of masks, ventilators – and medics – to Italy and France.
China sent medics to Iran – under illegal, ghastly US sanctions – and Iraq – which the US is bombing AGAIN.
China is offering help and advice across the (Eurasian) board - from the Philippines to Spain.

"Xi, in a phone call with Italy’s PM Conte, pledged to establish a HEALTH SILK ROAD, a natural extension of the New Silk Roads, or Belt and Road Initiative (BRI). [My Emphasis]

"There’s a new global leader in town."

I see the grossly immoral Outlaw US Empire beginning to go round-and-round the porcelain bowl and wonder if the plumbing and wastewater system can handle the volume of effluent.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 19 2020 18:20 utc | 105

@b Another myth to add to your collection ...

... that USA and the West were unprepared because China withheld information about the virus.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 19 2020 18:20 utc | 106

Wondering if any oldies on here can tell us what it was like in terms of shutdowns and quarantines during the years of high polio cases?

Posted by: Bluemot5 | Mar 19 2020 18:20 utc | 107

This looks like the bailouts in coronavirus clothing.

"The U.S. Senate was aiming to unveil details of a $1 trillion-plus coronavirus bill later on Thursday intended to help the U.S. economy weather the ill-effects of the growing outbreak. President Donald Trump has been eagerly calling for that package.

It would be Congress’ third emergency coronavirus bill following a $105 billion-plus plan covering free coronavirus testing, paid sick leave and expanded safety-net spending, and an $8.3 billion measure to combat the spread of the highly contagious pathogen and develop vaccines to protect against it. Trump has signed both into law."
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa/u-s-scrambles-to-assess-coronavirus-growing-toll-idUSKBN2162H8

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 19 2020 18:21 utc | 108

Antiwar7 | Mar 19 2020 17:58 utc | 98 (source CV) There is no advantage in discussion. It's to be determined later as fact. Even if, (and Wally thinks it is) deliberate, that does not mean either un-natural - or man-made. It may be simply Circumstance. It usually is.

Origin, this is an indeterminate question..and at this time entirely irrelevant. It won't matter to you if yer dead. As to Facts... We still discover facts from the past conflicts, whether the plagues of Europe in the Middle Ages or the plagues of the world, and we argue about the collapse of 1177 BC: The Year Civilization Collapsed (Eric Cline, PhD) (good video, YT) Or, indeed, the causes of WW2...

Man, once Wally had a boss. The boss was a jerk. Wally gave him a really bad cold (on purpose, as an experiment, "research"!). Wally did not create it. It was a "natural" cold. Wally felt remorse...was longtimeago. If Wally was a biochemist and "made it" it would be no different. It's Really Easy (and really bad) to deliberately give a guy a bad cold. Be nice. It's important.

Actually I think the discussion is foolish. People [men] believe what they will. (J. Caesar) One cannot argue belief.

The matter now is to cooperate and survive as a viable civilization, or community. Time for forensics after the Conflict. Maybe Trials? Would not be the first Trials, nor, I expect, the last.

Posted by: Walter | Mar 19 2020 18:28 utc | 109

well no offense to anyone here, but do you really believe China had zero new cases?

there are absolutely tremendous incentives to under-report, far more than in the west, and we also have incentives to under-report.

Posted by: ptb | Mar 19 2020 18:29 utc | 110

While I agree that the coronavirus doesn't sound like a well-designed weapon virus, I do find it bizarre that all of a sudden Iran is one of the major countries (with Italy and C). Yes they do have problems with sanctions, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if the CIA and/or MOSSAD (or one of the hundreds of other US agencies, all of which seem to operate in a more or less autonomous fashion) had opportunistically rounded up some coronavirus from Wuhan or wherever, and seeded it in Iran. After all, this was pretty much the policy that Netanyahu openly announced in April 2018. Attempts to destabilise the Iranian regime, was how it was put. Of course none of those agencies could care less about causing the deaths of thousands of people.

Posted by: Laguerre | Mar 19 2020 18:36 utc | 111

ptb 110

No reason not to believe it. Other than 'the chinks never tell the truth'.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 19 2020 18:38 utc | 112

Recall that an Invisible Hand, or true Insider, is almost never fully exposed. You already have the evidence for that, to wit:

Recall a time when you, alone, were the actual "Insider" who planned and caused an event to happen at a particular time and place, that no one else [outsiders] knew was going to occur. Then compare what you learned from outsiders about said event, with the truth known only to you [as the true source].

Example-- Smith is publisher of a small newspaper. To make money, Smith, in March, arranges to print in June, a shocking item that some corporation is likely under investigation in connection with mis-labeling cancer-causing chemicals. Smith, in April, bets that price if the corporations stock will fall. Insider Smith wins his bet and begins his next event. [Smith's bets are handled by anonymous brokers in a foreign country by cover-accounts and cover-stories without ever his identity being known.]

Posted by: chu teh | Mar 19 2020 18:39 utc | 113

"Myth:

Moon of Alabama has downplayed the danger of the virus."

I'm sorry, but no. Just no. That's literally exactly what you did.

Your first article literally said not to panic, which was then followed by four articles describing its decline. You were dismissive of the danger of the virus from the start.

"We have since posted a total of 15 detailed pieces on the pandemic. To claim that this is a downplaying of the issue is nonsensical."

Yes, you switched your tone as the fact that it was becoming a global pandemic became apparent. And now you're advocating an incredibly extensive lockdown, right down to the family level, as a solution.

I'm not faulting you for either your early attempts at providing a sober analysis, nor your current extreme solutions. But don't try and deny the very easily verified history of your discourse on this subject. The situation changed so your views changed. Just own up to that. Don't deny you initially downplayed it.

Posted by: Benjamin | Mar 19 2020 18:42 utc | 114

Posted by: Bluemot5 | Mar 19 2020 18:20 utc | 107

Wondering if any oldies on here can tell us what it was like in terms of shutdowns and quarantines during the years of high polio cases?

Well, it was the 40s & 50s, I was small, but what I remember, is there were a variety of theories and little was done about it until the vaccines came along, of which there were several, except to care for those that survived, some of whom I went to school with.

When I lived in farm country, there was little to see, when we moved to the city, many polio cases around, plus those in sanatariums. It is the case I think of when I see people claim vaccines are useless/dangerous etc. I have deep faith in the ability of money to corrupt, including some modern vaccines, but nobody is going to tell me vaccines haven't done a lot of good.

Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 19 2020 18:42 utc | 115

@ Bluemot5 | Mar 19 2020 18:20 utc
I am 65 but have no memories of the polio epidemic. I did find this article

seems oddly like the current situation

Posted by: dan of steele | Mar 19 2020 18:46 utc | 116

>Mass burning of corpses... in Italy.

How ironic. This is the same article I linked to. According to vk, 97 bodies are now "mass burning". Are they all in one pile, dosed with kerosene, and set on fire?

One thing for sure the world does not need is more clickbait.

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Mar 19 2020 18:50 utc | 117

Jackrabbit

Which information did China withheld?
Ive seen this claim alot, but I havent seen any evidence, could you give me a link showing evidence of cover up by China?

Posted by: Zanon | Mar 19 2020 18:53 utc | 118

@ 69 bevin... thanks for the thoughtful post.. i agree with you, but i question your logic in thinking democracy is going to rise immediately out of this...that is the part i don't get, and it is right at the very end of your post.. thanks..

@ lozion 5G is doing this... i think it is an extremely far fetched idea myself.. maybe that is why no one is joining you in asking..

@ 103 antispin.. yeah.. same guy, lol... stay away from the caps!!

here is a live video feed from wuhan city... it is about 3am there right now, so you won't see much until about 9am.. check back.. the city seems like it is completely shut down every day i look at this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf-4zQADLS8

is that how they have it under control in china? they have shut everything down? looks like it.. there goes the supply chain.. walmart is fucked!!

Posted by: james | Mar 19 2020 18:53 utc | 119

Jackrabbit, nevermind I misread you.

Posted by: Zanon | Mar 19 2020 18:54 utc | 120

Pepe asks a question from his VK space:

"WILL EXCEPTIONALISTAN COME CLEAN - IN SIX QUESTIONS

"'Chinese virus'?

"OK. Now answer these questions - and then you (may) get away with it.

"When did patient zero popped up in the US?

"How many Americans are REALLY infected? Flu does not count.

"Where are they - in which hospitals?

"Why were US health authorities FORBIDDEN to test for Covid-19 after the WHO issued an unmistakable red alert in EARLY JANUARY?

"Why the CDC coronavirus discussions are CLASSIFIED?

"Why the coronavirus discussions in the US take place in Sensitive Compartmentalized Information Facilities - which are the domain of INTEL AND MILITARY OPS?

"I bet there will be ZERO answers to all of these questions."

My reply to Pepe:

"I'll take that bet, Pepe, because they're surly answers to those questions; rather, the question is: Will the answers be published prior to June 2020?"

I agree with Pepe that those are important questions. But being a Big Picture guy, I'm curious how the chessboard will look once a vaccine becomes available, which IMO will be ready in @3 months. Regardless the source, the outcome is quite like that of a chemical Blister Agent I described several days ago--to the point where grocery clerks are being classified as Emergency Personnel. And the bird taking a full load of buckshot isn't Trump's MAGA but the entire Neoliberal edifice and its mechanisms for the further pursuit of Super Imperialism.

My question: Will COVID-19 kill the parasite that's destroyed the geoeconomic ability of the USA and most of the EU?

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 19 2020 18:58 utc | 121

Total confirmed cases in China 81,000. Total confirmed cases in Italy as of now 41,000.
With 3,405 deaths, the toll in Italy has now surpassed China's.
With that many deaths to confirmed cases, there is a large number of infected people still going about their business in Italy. The death toll will keep climbing and climbing.
I'm guessing it will be similar in Iran. No quarantine of people who had been with infected individuals even when it had well and truly kicked in there.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 19 2020 18:59 utc | 122

Just like the saying: "War is the continuation of politics by other means" ( or is it the other way around ??) what if this "viral episode" is economic sanctions by other means ?

Posted by: gofigure | Mar 19 2020 19:00 utc | 123

@ Posted by: Trailer Trash | Mar 19 2020 18:50 utc | 117

I was making a joke with the conspiracy theory of secret mass cremations in Wuhan when the epidemic was only restricted to China.

--//--

About the alleged "miracle drugs" being posted here, read this:

Hahn highlights the possibility for drugs to be given to patients in the United States at need under so called “compassionate use” rules.

"If there is an experimental drug that’s available a doctor can ask for that drug to be used in a patient ... we get to collect the information about that.

We are working expeditiously and we are working to make sure these products are as safe as they can be."

Like I said before (at least twice, in two previous threads): stop posting about "promising treatments" here. Doctors have a "poetic license" (which Hahn calls "compassionate use") to test patients with whatever drugs he sees fit in cases of calamity, when no treatment exist yet. That doesn't mean we're near a cure. We're not even near a vaccine.

Stop feeding this blog with false hope. There won't be a viable vaccine/cure for the forseeable future save for a lucky event of cosmic proportions (which is theoretically possible as you divert R&D resources to frantic testing).

Posted by: vk | Mar 19 2020 19:00 utc | 124

Bemildred | Mar 19 2020 18:42 utc | 115 Polio was terrible. Wally remembers the Fear, every family was terrified, every mother. Wally's Mother was terrified that her husband would get polio...

Adults got it too - as FDR did. And he recalls the vaccine inoculations. They used the same needle on everybody, but had an alcohol lamp - with each draw of serum the glass and metal syringe was held such that the needle was in the flame long enough to color it red nicely, by a nurse. We all cued up.

Ya tended to get it from swimming, of course there was chit in the water. There usually is.

There are probably true stories, evidence, that with the serum came polyomas from the monkeys in which the serum was made...which may account for many of the soft tissue cancers our generation has encountered.

Wally never had a problem. If polyoma is true (I think it is) it was still a wonderful freedom and a good swap.

Like CV, it does not matter about polyoma...the problem was urgent, and the solution, however flawed, was enough.

Posted by: Walter | Mar 19 2020 19:01 utc | 125

@b 97

The 9/11 'conspiracy theory' was also 'debunked' by the NIST report. The 'conspiracy theory' still rages to this day.

With the coronavirus, the fact is we do not know its origins, and the paper you cited does not 'debunk' the coronavirus 'conspiracy theory'.

Posted by: JasonT | Mar 19 2020 19:02 utc | 126

In 5 of March Italy had "only" 148 deaths, today, after only 2 weeks, 3.405 deaths even with a draconian lockdown in place, that is how the exponential function works, and this explain why government and people does not act, because few people understand how this kind of functions really works.

For people like D.J.Trump and Boris Johnson is mission impossible

Today Italy has 18.225 in hospital's beds and 2.498 in ICU's, the health system is crushed

Posted by: DFC | Mar 19 2020 19:02 utc | 127

I vaguely recall the polio era. There was a fair amount of panic. I remember lining up in the school gymnasium with everyone else in town to get a dose of oral vaccine. My father had a friend with a leg damaged by polio. He played slide guitar in a Country & Western band.

I don't remember lockdowns or anything like that. Other than polio and tuberculosis, maybe epidemics were more accepted 60 years ago? Everyone got measles, mumps, chicken pox. That's just the way it was. I don't think most people thought about it much; too busy trying to make a living, just like nowadays.

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Mar 19 2020 19:05 utc | 128

vk
Piss off vk. anti virals have been tested in China, I think Italy, and Australia that I know of and found very effective. Two separate drugs. Only problem now is supply.

Seeing this "We're not even near a vaccine." I guess you dont understand the difference between an anti viral drug and a vaccine.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 19 2020 19:07 utc | 129

The American people need to demand the age groups of all the deaths due to the SARS-CoV-2 variant of coronavirus. We will find the highest group that have succumbed to the disease are 60 years and older. I want to see numbers for each State in the Republic, not percentages.

Then peel the onion back further and reveal if the elderly who died had previous pulmonary problems (e.g. emphysema, COPD, asthma, pulmonary fibrosis, cystic fibrosis, lung cancer, tuberculous, etc) and what immuno-suppressant medications they were taking.

If in fact it turns out the majority who perish are old people, then the deaths could be attributed to influenza, which is the epidemic that is going on right now in the country. There are 29 million people infected and more than 4,500 have died so far with two months to go in the flu season.

The patients are not being swabbed for influenza and testing for that disease, just COVID-19. This skews the numbers away from influenza so the media screams every day about COVID-19.

Posted by: PokeTheTruth | Mar 19 2020 19:09 utc | 130

james @119: 5G is doing this... far fetched

Just to clarify:

I think Lozion is saying that Wuhan may have been targeted because it has one of the first 5G networks. This is similar to speculation that Italy may have been targeted because it was the first Western nation to sign-up with China's Belt-and-Road Initiative and that Iran was targeted because it is in conflict with USA+Israel.

I too doubt that Wuhan would have been targeted because of it's 5G network but maybe it played a part (if Wuhan was targeted at all). More important factors might be that Wuhan is a transit hub and has an important bio-research facility that could be blamed for the outbreak.

<> <> <> <> <>

Any such "targeting" of infectious agents would be in the context of hybrid warfare that includes trade sanctions and civil unrest spurred by democracy and human rights activists.

Some see a suspicious pattern of outbreaks:

In the past two years (during the trade war) China has suffered several pandemics:
  • February 15, 2018: H7N4 bird flu. Sickened at least 1,600 people in China and killed more than 600. Many chickens killed. China needs to purchase US poultry products.

  • June, 2018: H7N9 bird flu. Many chickens killed. China needs to purchase US poultry products.

  • August, 2018: outbreak of African swine flu. Same strain as Russia, from Georgia. Millions of pigs killed. China needs to purchase US pork products.

  • May 24, 2019: massive infestation of armyworms in 14 province-level regions in China, which destroy most food crops. Quickly spread to more than 8,500 hectares of China’s grain production. They produce astonishing numbers of eggs. China needs to purchase US agricultural products – corn, soybeans.

  • December, 2019: Coronavirus appearance puts China’s economy on hold.

  • January, 2020: China is hit by a “highly pathogenic” strain of bird flu in Hunan province. Many chickens died, many others killed. China needs to purchase US poultry products.

The standard adage is that bad luck happens in threes, not sixes.


!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 19 2020 19:12 utc | 131

"So please stop the "escaped from lab" or "weaponized" assertions. They have no basis and unless you provide real scientific evidence such claims will in future get your comment deleted and may even get you banned."

Wow- "B" goes Pat Lang on his own blog.

.....

"There is zero evidence that the virus is from a Chinese or U.S. or other (weapon) laboratory and the claim actually makes no sense. (1)

To artificially create such a complex entity and to test all its variants would have been a program of the size of the Manhattan project and would have cost billions. (2)

Weapon researchers are sane people with a limited budget. They look for methods to defeat an enemy. A virus that affects all humans indiscriminately but kills mostly very old ones would have no military value." (3)


(1)- And there is NO factual evidence otherwise. Nuclear, Chemical and Biological development/use do not "make sense" in a sane world. Yet the U.S. spends more $, time, energy and propaganda than the rest of the world combined in exactly those areas.

(2)- The U.S. invests Billions in an ever increasing budget terminally. Billions of $$$ go missing and are unaccounted for every year. Remember the cash that went missing in Iraq? A pile so high you could "see it from the moon". Pentagon cannot be accurately audited financially, black holes of black budget money everywhere printed and sold to the U.S. > M.I.C. Billions granted (given away) to rogue nations for weapons research and development ring a bell?

(3)- Sane people with limited budgets my ass. The budget increases EVERY year and cannot even be accounted for. Wounding an enemy on the tactical battlefield creates more stress and problems than outright killing them (resources for wounded). The U.S. military value strategy is NOT to win and end wars...but to sustain them indefinately so the Economy of War continues to flourish.

Notice the Economic Sanctions have NOT been lifted? That alone should clarify what sort of vile regimes run by vile humans with vile values exist in power today. I do wonder if you "woke" today incredibly naive or did you get a knock on your door?


Posted by: CitizenX | Mar 19 2020 19:14 utc | 132

Alright b what is going on here?

In all the time I've been reading and commenting at MoA (and that goes back years) I have never seen you throw down such a heavy threat of censorship. What is this really about?

Are you just going to scrub away any inquiry apart from the accepted wisdom?

Since all of us are encouraged to be rational here, let's at least talk about the logical reason that might cause Chinese authorities to accuse the USA of being the source of the virus. They have done this several times. Why do thy make this accusation?

There is another explanation that does not involve any weapons laboratory. There has been another explanation of the virus that suggests that the altered virus came out of a multi-national effort to use coronavirus, or some natural variant of it, to create vaccines. Someone here at MoA offered a couple of links. One of the links was authored by a virology PHD.

A multinational effort was said to include the United States, China, and European nations (including Germany). You say in your article that it would take something like a Manhattan Project, to come up with with this strange Covid-19 variant. However, the biologist who was covering this PHD paper, says that the virology expert's report indicates that the emergence of this particular strain could have been accidental, with so many cultures going in Petri dishes, on a variety of subject mammals, in a number of different countries who were all sharing the research toward a common goal.

Logistical and Technical Exploration into the Origins of the Wuhan Strain of Coronavirus (COVID-19)

Posted by: Copeland | Mar 19 2020 19:15 utc | 133

James, have you spared 10min to watch the YouTube video? Prolly not..
Anyone here know about Rudolf Steiner? Anthroposophy?
Heavy metals injected in human bodies via vaccines?
Barium, aluminium continually sprayed in the atmosphere via geo-engineering?
Humans are conductive..

Quick search:

https://ehtrust.org/key-issues/cell-phoneswireless/5g-networks-iot-scientific-overview-human-health-risks/

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/we-have-no-reason-to-believe-5g-is-safe/

https://www.commsupdate.com/articles/2019/10/31/chinese-trio-launch-commercial-5g-services/

Posted by: Lozion | Mar 19 2020 19:16 utc | 134

"Sundheds- og ældreministeren kan påbyde enhver, der lider af en alment farlig sygdom, eller som formodes at kunne være smittet med en sådan:
1) At lade sig undersøge af en sundhedsperson
2) At lade sig indlægge på et sygehus eller i anden egnet facilitet
3) At lade sig isolere i en egnet facilitet."

Danmarks parliament accepted "hasteloven" (law under pressure of time") with which the "minister for health and the elderly" legally can have people tested, put in hospital or self-isolisation BY FORCE. Police, military and private security (if appropriate) have to assist to install this force, even by invading peoples homes.

How about Norway, @Norwegian and Sweden @Veritas_X ?

https://www.altinget.dk/artikel/hastelov-giver-minister-vide-befoejelser-tvangsbehandlinger-og-adgang-til-boliger

Posted by: Paleene | Mar 19 2020 19:19 utc | 135

Quit the bullshit. The source of this thing has been repeatedly proven to be Ft. Detick in the state of Maryland, USA, which was suddenly shut down last summer.

Posted by: Tony B. | Mar 19 2020 19:21 utc | 136

Bats are eaten in Sulawesi, in a stew. Bit too crunchy.

Posted by: Cicero | Mar 19 2020 19:22 utc | 137

This comparative illustrated graphic might be of some interest or use.

https://2oqz471sa19h3vbwa53m33yj-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/History-of-Pandemics-Deadliest-2.jpg

Posted by: Noirette | Mar 19 2020 19:23 utc | 138

Bluemot5@107

I can remember that houses where people with polio lived had big quarantine signs (in yellow as I remember) on their doors. The quarantine was taken serious as there were graphic pictures of the afflicted and the consequences of the disease. Visual images of people dying of SARS-CoV-2 are just those of terminally ill people who will soon disappear forever by going up in smoke.

This was also the era where graphic displays of smokers lungs were shown in every classroom in schools. Somehow, Bernays propaganda techniques put a stop to such warnings.

Posted by: krollchem | Mar 19 2020 19:23 utc | 139

#135 Sry, the point is not self-isolation but isolation in what might be found suitable.

Posted by: Paleene | Mar 19 2020 19:23 utc | 140

https://www.franceinter.fr/emissions/le-telephone-sonne/le-telephone-sonne-19-mars-2020
Frightening. Testimonies of French ppl who got sick. only treatment is : stay at home and take paracetamol.no test available even for those whose symptoms are clear. only when strong respiratory problems happen do they get admitted to the hospital and then are tested. A doctor says they don't have enough test and they must keep them for testing the medical staff regularly (+ the happy fews).

Posted by: Mina | Mar 19 2020 19:24 utc | 141

To make a just evaluation of the health danger of Covid-19 it could be useful to make a computerized simulation model based on the data from an influenza virus seasonal outbreak some years ago,but with the actual medical extended reaction to it like testing on a bigger scale then normally.(I don't even know how it is ,in normal wintertime flu.I guess the numbers tested equal those who seek medical help,or maybe they test all citizens taking part in the free government proposed vaccination,that pretty soon follows the outbreak(how do they find the vaccin so quickly?)) improvising hospitals and other medical stuff.And also take in account the appreciation of the illness by the general public.The high number of medical staff that went ill after weeks of treating patients with it seems not to be an annual affair.The outcome should make clear the real danger ratio of Covid-19.
Still pondering over those Italian deaths.Average said to be 81 years.10% over 90 years old.90 % over 70 years old.Nobody died from it under seventy years old?

The governments's reactions to CV are another chapter.Nowadays governments are mainly made up of incompetent empire-compatibles.In the same way the empire gets away with bombing away poor people,those incompetents get away with evry single stupidity they commit.They rarely step down.When they do they are sure to find an even better con-job;(Cf.Christine Lagarde,van der Leyen and so many others)The general public accepts incompetence,so the politicians know they can do anything their overlord wants them to.They are shouted at some times,made fun of in accomplice media,ridiculized by the workers,they don't care.In the evening they have their ration of high qualite cocaine and they are feeling very special when they look down upon you common plebs next morning.Incompetence is the excuse of the century,but not a reason to loose the job.

A third question that I want to raise.So it was in Wuhan in september 2019 that the World Military Games were held.I never heard of before,but yeah its just a sportive meeting between army personal from all over the world,in an olympic spirit I wager.Then it seems there was on the same day the opening of something called Event 201 said to be a simulation (Real time?computer game,Viral!?) of a virus outbreak.OK.So what?
I don't want to look myself into this,because I've never liked Bill Gates,who did this,but I like to know from more inquisitive barflies,if such a thing has really taken place.How long did it last?What was the outcome?And has this study been taken in account by government officials,be it in the USA or abroad?

Because what if there was really nothing,just the announcement?

Posted by: willie | Mar 19 2020 19:24 utc | 142

@ 131 jackrabbit... oh okay.. thanks for clarifying that for me!! i think it is as you say here - "Wuhan is a transit hub and has an important bio-research facility that could be blamed for the outbreak." but i am not convinced this is a bio weapon attack from usa on china.. i can't rule it out, but acknowledge it is speculation either way at this point.. that might change however...

@ citizen x... quote "Wow- "B" goes Pat Lang on his own blog." that is a fair comment!!! maybe b can comment directly on that!!

@ 134 lozion... just seeing your post now... i haven't watched the video... i am familiar with rudolph steiner and have read some of his books too.. thanks for the links.. i try to keep an open mind... i will watch the first one..

Posted by: james | Mar 19 2020 19:26 utc | 143

Posted by: Walter | Mar 19 2020 19:01 utc | 125

Copacetic. I remember about the swimming, pools are still filty places, but I used to swim a lot anyway. I was ~11 when I learned to swim.

Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 19 2020 19:27 utc | 144

@vk I apologize for misreading your post. I agree that "Vaccine Next Week!" and "Treatment Tomorrow!" are hype. I always initially assume any media story regarding science or medicine is marketing. The target is the mass of get-rich-quick investors looking for the next big thing.

The flood of published medical research that is really marketing is overwhelming the scientific knowledge base. It appears to be similar in many areas of research. As long as a publication results in investments or grants, it's all good.

What? Research is supposed to "advance knowledge" and "help people"? How old-fashioned.

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Mar 19 2020 19:27 utc | 145

@ 136 tony b... that is quite the proof you have going! LOL... don't bother unless you are trying to entertain people here..

Posted by: james | Mar 19 2020 19:27 utc | 146

PokeTheTruth 130

Pneumonia from CV is very different to pneumonia from the flue. Very quickly takes over the lungs compared to other forms of pneumonia and apparently, at least in the early stages shows up differently in imaging.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 19 2020 19:29 utc | 147

Copeland @133 - thank you for your comment about b and thank you for posting that link to "Logistical and Technical Exploration into the Origins of the Wuhan Strain of Coronavirus (COVID-19)" - It's an excellent read and well worth ones time.

Posted by: h | Mar 19 2020 19:37 utc | 148

Can anyone imagine a country that forbids to ride a bicycle?

the right answer is France.Having your attestation de déplacement on you,you are allowed to run in a circle of two kilometers yesterday,downgraded to one km today around your house.Because cycling will get you quickly out of this confinement circle,it is interdit!(135 euros,multi-recidivistes up to 1300.)Lucky if you have a home trainer,they won't bother you,even if it does get you nowhere..
Pity that the toolstores and buiding materials are shutdown.One has plenty time,and luckily I have seeds and potatoes to plant because the soupgardening season starts now.Onions to plant I bought two weeks ago.The great thing is the superclean air,because very few airplanes,and I'm under heavy air traffic normally.In this regard I find it interesting indeed that it is Lombardia and Veneto that are the most polluted Italian areas and reason says,and also it was predicted that living in those areas affects the lungs of everybody,whether smoker or not.

Posted by: willie | Mar 19 2020 19:38 utc | 149

Peter Au1@147

Thank you for that information.

However it does not change the fact patients are not being tested for the greater epidemic of influenza. Influenza can be a contributing comorbidity factor that has to be addressed in terms of treatment protocol. Also there is no proof that COVID-19 is "more contagious" either by laboratory analysis or in fielded studies than influenza. If you know of such a paper, I would appreciate a link so that I can examine it for myself.

Posted by: PokeTheTruth | Mar 19 2020 19:42 utc | 150

Biological weapon Pentagon Programs- 01.16.18

https://www.naturalblaze.com/2018/01/bio-weapons-pentagon.html


Bulgarian journalist confronts US official over secret biolabs... 06.14.19

http://armswatch.com/bulgarian-journalist-confronts-us-official-over-secret-biolabs/

Posted by: CitizenX | Mar 19 2020 19:46 utc | 151

Here's a report on the current war against the unseen enemy. The question about polio is relevant IMO, but for a vastly different reason than what the OP likely had in mind. At the time, the ongoing war against the unseen enemy was taken very seriously as it affected all classes and especially city dwellers. Recall for centuries the Miasma Theory of Disease and related piety and fear of god were the primary explanations for the unexplainable. That dogma was challenged by a Persian scholar in the mid 1000s when the Arab world was where genuine science was being pursued while the West went looking for Devils, witches and heretics, but even the Arab world couldn't accept what we now know to be the truth of the matter. We needed to await the arrival of microscopes and Bacteriology to establish the Germ Theory of Disease in 1870. Death was everywhere and quite powerful. I recall the average life expectancy for Philadelphia in 1740 to be 20--lots of early childhood and child bearing deaths--with little differentiation between the slowly growing urban regions within the Colonies. Charlestown was the worst with its residents abandoning the city during Summer. FDR was the first genuinely handicapped POTUS, but he tried his best to conceal his disability. My Maternal Grandfather was kept stateside in 1918 thanks to the flu epidemic, while his cousin wasn't so lucky and died in the trenches, his mother never forgave my Maternal Grandmother for Fate's result. While dated (2010) this graphic illustrates the top 15 Communicable Diseases. Some will find this essay on the use of quarantine helpful by providing some historical context to the ongoing war against the unseen world.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 19 2020 19:49 utc | 152

james and everyone

I was wrong. Lozion actually is asking for comments regarding a crackpot a crackpot theory that viruses are toxic excretions of biological cells and that viral outbreaks occur every time there are large-scale changes in electro-magetic emissions.

The guy in the video that Lozion links to claims that radio waves cause the 1918 Spanish flu.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 19 2020 19:49 utc | 153

Good job b on acting firmly in banning further posts promoting the various conspiracy theories that SARS-CoV2 originated in a lab then either accidently or intentionally released. At some point you need to choose which side to trust and believe, the evidence-backed science or the Rush Limbaughs of the world.

Posted by: Carciofi | Mar 19 2020 19:50 utc | 154

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Mar 19 2020 15:43 utc | 39

They are closing the border to people in Europe - not to supplies.

Tourism, hotels, restaurants - shut down. Supermarkets, bakeries, butchers, cafes - working, crafts people, building sites, repair shops - working. Factories - working - if their goods are in demand, doing subsidized part time work keeping their personnel on board if not. Education - closed down. ECB investing in shares.

Civil servants refusing to talk to people in person, but working online or via the phone.

It is a huge project proving how lazy people can get if they don't consume. It is also going to prove which country has a good health care system and which country has not.

I do wonder about Italy though. Either they have got a different more dangerous mutation of Corona Virus or their hospitals suck. Or they are testing more people than anyone else.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 19 2020 19:51 utc | 155

Thanks CitizenX. And now we must assume that with a budget of a couple of billion these Pentagon facilities are just doing research for peaceful purposes.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Mar 19 2020 19:52 utc | 156

@107 . Bluemot5

There was no quarantine. They closed beaches. Told people to no go into the water. That was for a summer or two at most.
I don't recall anything else. A kid up the street got it. He was a hell of an athlete but wound up with a brace on one leg. He was away fro some time and his return was the only sign that polio was really bad.

People were deathly afraid of the first vaccine, injected. Dr. Salk invented that first vaccine.
The Oral Vaccine really changed everything. Dr. Sabin changed the paradigm and saved several generations.

Posted by: Red Ryder | Mar 19 2020 19:53 utc | 157

b. you ought to chill & relax.

Posted by: bjd | Mar 19 2020 19:54 utc | 158

You write: "There is zero evidence that the virus is from a Chinese or U.S. or other (weapon) laboratory and the claim actually makes no sense. The genome of the virus consists of more then 23,000 'letters'. It is significantly different that the genome of other known viruses. To artificially create such a complex entity and to test all its variants would have been a program of the size of the Manhattan project and would have cost billions."

I beg to differ with you, b.

Dr Francis Boyle, who has spent a great deal of his life working on germ warfare agents and the efforts to outlaw them, insists that it is a germ warfare agent. This has nothing to do with testing the variants of the 23,000 "letters" of its genome (that is a red herring) but is based on the nature of the modifications made, which can be explained only by the intent to create a highly lethal germ warfare agent.

Also, there is the curious case of the shut down of the Fort Detrick lab for a -- finally -- acknowledged lack of ability to contain the agents being developed there. Fort Detrick has NEVER passed a security test, yet it is level four, designed to produce the most lethal germ warfare agents possible, something that the United States has been working on since 1945.

Further, you write: "Weapon researchers are sane people with a limited budget. They look for methods to defeat an enemy. A virus that affects all humans indiscriminately but kills mostly very old ones would have no military value."

Germ weapons researchers are anything but sane! They are world-class psychopaths, just like those who dream of waging and winning a nuclear war.

And there is NO proof yet that this "kills mostly very old" people. We are far too soon into the pandemic to make such claims Rather, it is more and more turning up in people between 20 and 40, who, ordinarily would be the most resistant.

And, as I have stated before, there is NO reason to trust the figures coming from the government of China, for there has been NO verification of them from any source, much less reliable, independent verification. And, to repeat, as I.F. Stone never ceased to insist: "All governments lie."

Posted by: RJPJR | Mar 19 2020 19:59 utc | 159

@100.

ioannides comes up with 1 million total infected, in USA and 10000 dead at his prognosticated rate of mortality of 0.01. If we extrapolate his model to North Italy, population 10 million, we have 333.333 infected and total fatalities of 3.333, at the end of epidemics, in no quarantine what so ever conditions... the problem with that line of thought: as of today there are 3405 dead folks in less than one month, so if he is right, nobody else dies from tomorrow...Maybe he has no clue what is going on?

Posted by: hospital doc | Mar 19 2020 20:15 utc | 160

@b Another myth to add to your collection ...

... that USA and the West were unprepared because China withheld information about the virus.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 19 2020 18:20 utc | 106

The "Report of the WHO-China Joint Mission on COVID-19" states that China transparently reported the identification of virus to the WHO and the international community on January 3rd, and a WHO investigative team was invited to Wuhan a week after that.

From January 3rd, 2020, information on COVID-19 cases has been reported to WHO daily.

On January 7th, full genome sequences of the new virus were shared with WHO and the international community immediately after the pathogen was identified.

On January 10th, an expert group involving Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwanese technical experts and a World Health Organization team was invited to visit Wuhan.

From page 31 of:
https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/who-china-joint-mission-on-covid-19-final-report.pdf

Posted by: occupatio | Mar 19 2020 20:16 utc | 161

James @ 47:

There have been articles posted online about high levels of air pollution in Italy's Po River valley region, where Lombardia province is located. Do a search on Google or DuckDuckGo and they appear.

Much of that pollution probably occurs at particular times of the year. Milan is said to be notorious for temperature inversions, as is Tehran in Iran. These occur in winter-time in Tehran nearly every year. Cold air sinks under warm air in river valleys or inter-mountain valleys and plateaux so air is trapped and cannot circulate, trapping pollutants. Milan, Tehran and probably Wuhan beside the Jiangzi River sit in these kinds of physical environments.

Italy does seem to have a history of industrial accidents. I have a double CD set of urban folk by Alessandro Monti, "Unfolk + Live Book", which is partly inspired by an industrial poisoning incident that occurred somewhere in northern Italy in the 1970s. Can't remember any details and can't look up now, being on smartphone, but it was a major incident, large numbers in the vicinity were poisoned, many died and others still struggling with long-term effects. May have been some form of dioxide poisoning.

Posted by: Jen | Mar 19 2020 20:17 utc | 162

As far as I know, because I have eaten them there, bats are also eaten in Tibet and Taiwan by aborigins...

Posted by: Mike | Mar 19 2020 20:21 utc | 163

james @47

I'm back now- just so happens I go outside and do stuff all day long- I don't sit there and await a response- and most certainly I'm not interested in wasting too much time on pointless discussions so is speaking to you through typing BTW (laughs) really worthwhile? I've yet to see evidence to support this.

So you've been to Italy and didn't notice the pollution? Where were you? How many articles and studies do I need to post to convince you otherwise. This is a fact that is easily researched. Obviously you did not do this so that makes me think you are a dishonest and/or lazy respondent. Further evidence that discussing these things with you is not worthwhile.

And BTW I referenced N Italy- you are quite sloppy in your intellectual rigor.

For you to fling accusations that someone is a computer is on the level of "Russian bots" or "trolls" or whatever the latest cyber name-calling tactic is. That's how 2 year olds do it in the sandbox james. You have no argument so right to the infantile name-calling and gas lighting- you're a real class act.

Now go do some research on air pollution in the Po Valley and research interstitial pneumonia and understand basic virology and connect a few dots and then apologize for being an ignoramus. But you've been to Italy...

A majority of those whom the virus has killed are men over 81 years old with other health complications. Twenty percent of those who have been infected and present serious symptoms need to be intubated for respiratory failure because interstitial pneumonia develops.

Posted by: Allen | Mar 19 2020 20:23 utc | 164

@Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 19 2020 18:58 utc | 121

To the questions possed by Pepe Escobar, you would add...

Why have been decreed a harsh censure by Youtue, Twitter and Faceook on any information debunking official false information or denouncing the lack of material affecting health workers in the West?

I find somehow interesting that it is precisely now, when the virus is strongly affecting the West, that you have decided to exert a harsher control of the narrative, when at the time the virus was only affecting China, Iran and even Italy, the most outlandish accusations against these peoples were being published here without any obstacle.

BTW, what is your opinion about that guy, Robert Steele, an unconditional Trump supporter, who mantains the infection is a hoax since the first minutes?

With respect to debunking the virus as a military bioweapon because it affects mainly elders and is affecting also US citizens, what about the fact that in some countries there are eing mainly victims in the range of the 50s-60s and even younger?
Also, were not the US conscripts also affected by Orange Agent in Vietnam?
I fear that damaging Us citizens was never a worry for TPTB...

On the other hand, a military goal does not seem what could have been looked for by said actors, but to act as a cover for an economic meltdown which is developing in parallel and to have the alibi for the establishment of an state of exception with which to cover the next big thievery on the working class to rescue again big business

Starting from today, in Spain, law enforcement forces have the right to detain any civilian caught out of its domicile without a document jusifying it...Just received a video of the detention of a young girl who was walking with her earphones...

Also a Basque nurse, 51 years old, have died after a week in hospital...Some health workers in a provnce in the central country who published a video on the shameful lack of protective gear and material, when two months have passed since the first cases were registered in Europe, have denounced being menaced...By now, people is being allowed to publish complaints on this...Wonder how long this will last...

It is certainly very convenient for the authorities to have the population in lockdown while an economic crash and a mass deths of elders are happening...al the more when countries like France were facing social unrest with respect pension reforms and each and every country, especially at their "economic forums" like Davos, were pointing at increasing pensioners numbers as a major challenge to the current liberal economic order...

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 19 2020 20:25 utc | 165

and i didn’t think the internet could get any dumber...

deepest sympathy b, makes me long for the time when computers were hard to use and very uncool

Posted by: Rae | Mar 19 2020 20:26 utc | 166

Posted by: somebody | Mar 19 2020 19:51 utc | 155

AFAIK, in Italy, to this very day, quarantine was not so absolute like in Spain, for example, citizens were allowed to go sporting outdoors...

I think they are foridding it from today on...

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 19 2020 20:31 utc | 167

I have experiences severe difficulty making any posts to comments. They just disappear.
I compared the Italian influenza statistics:-
https://www.epicentro.iss.it/influenza/flunews#mortalita
to the Italian covid19 death statistics:-
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/
The deaths in one day of 475 is way more than the average weekly influenza deaths of 187-241.
Very roughly, 475 x 7 = 3,325 per week or 14x what you would normally expect from influenza.
It is very early days but it seems like a big deal to me.

Posted by: Kaiama | Mar 19 2020 20:32 utc | 168

The political class in Washington is going to kill hundreds of thousands if not millions by delaying the necessary: national lockdown for three weeks minimum; industrial conversion for ventilators, masks and other equipment; mass testing; massive mobilization of new medical infrastructure (test sites, stadiums for infected people, planning for testing vaccines).

Why are they delaying? Why are they focusing on stimulus for economic revival before the problem is suppressed?

Because they need the economy to keep churning to fuel their wealth, and because the logical conclusion of meaningful action is that capitalism needs to be replaced by public planning and that socialism is the only way to organize a humane and safe society.

That is why they aren't acting.

They are starting to realize that coronavirus changes everything. We are hurtling towards a reckoning with the contradiction between social production and private profit, between commodification and ecological limits, and between universal needs and the nation-state system.

This is the reckoning of capitalism. They will lead us to common ruin.

Posted by: Professor K | Mar 19 2020 20:34 utc | 169

Germans hear little of China’s aid
https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1183146.shtml

In the opinion piece above, Gunter Schoech writes that China's medical aid to Italy and Europe has either not been covered by the German press, or dismissed as Chinese 'propaganda.'

German media coverage is managed by the German government through its news agency Deutsche Presse-Agentur (DPA), so it would not surprise me that there is a coordinated messaging that suppresses recognizing the contributions of Chinese aid, especially in light of German restrictions on sending critical medical supplies to fellow EU members.

Posted by: occupatio | Mar 19 2020 20:37 utc | 170

@Posted by: Tony B. | Mar 19 2020 19:21 utc | 136

In fact, and to help debunk "conspiracy theories", it would be good if b, who has such ability, and time, for researching, could come up with a post on the reasons why that facility was so suddenly closed...

I would be very interested reading, since nobody,as far as i am aware, has touched that topic..

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 19 2020 20:38 utc | 171

You are doing good Moon. I love your work.

Posted by: Andre de Almeida | Mar 19 2020 20:40 utc | 172

Professor K @169:

Why are they delaying? Because they need the economy to keep churning to fuel their wealth ...

No, they delayed because CRISIS! is an opportunity to advance their agenda and help favored corporations/industries.

The notion that they were lax because they were ignorant or hoped that everything would carry on as usual is naive and promotes the idea that these asshats were negligent instead of criminal.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 19 2020 20:46 utc | 173

My only ambivalence is the unequivocal claim that the SARS COV-2 virus emerged entirely from nature, ruling out origins in a vaccine or bio-weapons lab.

The scientific literature is muddled on this. See

https://reader.elsevier.com/reader/sd/pii/S1567134820300447?token=CDBC9C23E11744A1ED7B1028D80CB62C22D676FECC638A3D36A3DFBCDC6B2757E8DA11EB20234550A6EB620F0C612494

The “refutation” raisies as many questions as it answers. One microbiologist comments on the "Infection, Genetics and Evolution" article:


“This was confusing. They rule out recombination but report the middle fragment as source unknown.”

Key excerpts from “Full-genome evolutionary analysis of the novel corona virus (2019-nCoV) rejects the hypothesis of emergence as a result of a recent recombination event”

“Phylogenetic analyses using different methods confirmed these findings. A BLAST search of 2019-nCoV middle fragment revealed no considerable similarity with any of the previously characterized corona viruses”

and

“Our analysis suggests that the 2019-nCoV although closely related to BatCoV RaTG13 sequence throughout the genome (sequence similarity 96.3%), shows discordant clustering with the Bat_SARS-like coronavirus sequences. Specifically, in the 5′-part spanning the first 11,498 nucleotides and the last 3′-part spanning 24,341–30,696 positions, 2019-nCoV and RaTG13 formed a single cluster with Bat_SARS-like coronavirus sequences, whereas in the middle region spanning the 3′-end of ORF1a, the ORF1b and almost half of the spike regions, 2019-nCoV and RaTG13 grouped in a separate distant lineage within the sarbecovirus branch”

Says the microbiologist, "This does not rule out re-combination.
We need a 99.99% match to a lab source or an animal source if the origin is still an issue…"

Bottom line from the article

“The unique genetic features of 2019-nCoV and their potential association with virus characteristics and virulence in humans remain to be elucidated”

Posted by: Posa | Mar 19 2020 20:47 utc | 174

In Paris, pollution remains bad even with less or no cars.
http://www.leparisien.fr/paris-75/pollution-malgre-le-confinement-a-paris-la-qualite-de-l-air-se-degrade-19-03-2020-8283774.php

Posted by: Mina | Mar 19 2020 20:52 utc | 175

Posted by: Copeland | Mar 19 2020 19:15 utc | 133

"Someone here at MoA offered a couple of links. One of the links was authored by a virology PHD."

I'm guessing you might be referring to the one that I put here of a PhD in Pittsburgh called "J.C. on a Bike" on YT. To imply that what J.C. says about capabilities in virology "False Claims" is mighty rich but hey I'm just transient traveler.

>"Choke arti was a perfect example of Olucaccel at the Lunar Bar" said O'Brien when Winston left the office.<

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 19 2020 20:52 utc | 176

jackrabbit you dont own the discourse here in case you forget, not that you dont try.
Do we know all the consequences and potential hasards to 5G? Do you?

Right..


Posted by: Lozion | Mar 19 2020 20:52 utc | 177

#169, Prof K:

Good points!

One aspect that has concerned me since the day that trump et al woke up to this threat, aside from the pomposity and electioneering, is the publicized fact that kushner is deeply involved with an "action group."

The action group, according to an article in WaPo, (ok, not a pro-trump pub) is that major actors from private industry are key players.

-Of course, private industry means profit motive, something which has plagued health care in the us almost from day one.

Posted by: Thomas Minnehan | Mar 19 2020 20:54 utc | 178

Walter | Mar 19 2020 19:01 utc | 125

...There are probably true stories, evidence, that with the serum came polyomas ...

Lest there be reasonable doubt...

Look up Dr. Bernice Eddy at Natl Insts of Health. She did the testing and all her animal subjects died. She sounded the alarm for SV40 and presence other, unresearched viruses in the vaccine and production was stopped ...but only after millions of stocked doses were used up.

Then w further search note the predictable [!] magnitude and timimg [delay] of the cancers that followed. The suspected generational aspects will take a bit more inquiry.

Posted by: chu teh | Mar 19 2020 20:59 utc | 179

james@119
What is the alternative to a proper democracy mobilising the ingenuity and wisdom of every member of every community?
The answer, of course, is the sort of barbarism imagined in dystopian works like 1984. But such authoritarian societies, dominated by elites, are inevitably corrupt. And the more authoritarian they are the more corrupt they will be. And corrupt governments do not function very efficiently, least of all in the vital area, which by definition they always neglect, of social reproduction. This means that they become more and more stupid, inefficient and corrupt until in the end they collapse, just as WTC 7 did, from implosion.
Take the United States for example, or the Democratic Party or, for those like ourselves acquainted with Canada, any of our provinces and all of Ottawa. Better yet: Alberta...

Posted by: bevin | Mar 19 2020 21:00 utc | 180

Yanis Varoufakis on the economic and political impact of the coronavirus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLfHpvJKNg0

Varoufakis talks about how Covid-19 has precipitated crises built into financialized capitalism, and how the post-virus era will be dramatically reshaped.

Posted by: occupatio | Mar 19 2020 21:01 utc | 181

As a military grade weapon, a politically useful weapon, this bug has effectively closed borders and brought many countries virtually to a standstill for the foreseeable future. How many it kills is meaningless in this context. In the space of two months, it has effectively shut down the world as we know it.
As to whether it was deliberately put out or developed of its own who knows. Now its just a matter of watching to see how the US try and use it.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 19 2020 21:01 utc | 182

No new cases in China is wonderful news, if true. Do the spy satellites indicate a resumption of industrial pollution? If the CCP beat the virus, the stock market should respond.

Posted by: jadan | Mar 19 2020 21:03 utc | 183

Coronavirus by examples:

Professionally I find it preposterous stretching credulity that building 7 WTC collapsed into its own footprint as a result of office fires. I find it a further stretch of credibility that it happened to contain the only copies of a number of potentially embarrassing files and an even further incredulous coincidence that a similar thing happened in the Pentagon. It amounts to an official version of “the dog ate my homework” in credibility.

I look for such gaps in narratives and where they appear weak I dig and see what I can turn up.

When Hillary Clinton’s use of a private server was investigated the FBI officer who was due to give evidence was asked on Thursday to delay testimony by recess until the following week at request of Defence council. That weekend he was involved in a murder suicide with his ex-wife and child. I called it out on MoA.

When Iran was accused of firing missiles from Iranian territory into the Saudi Oil Refinery, I questioned the direction of the impacts and their precision and symmetry of the impact points on gasifiers here on MOA.

RE Coronavirus:
“A recession is a very good time for those with genuine liquidity” – Peter Thomas UK Billionaire

A number of events in the Covid-19 story (and related to it) are curious in their timing, curious in their planning, and curious in their sponsorship and support frameworks. I would like that we are able to discuss these things here, respectfully and with intelligence and those that wish to may call me foolish or whatever do so or not as is their want. I thought that’s what freedom of speech was? and, that a small group who couldn’t find space for a deeper look at what passes for news and geopolitics could find expression for it here? I hope I am still right in thinking that.

The USA conducts a $2.1 Billion dollar research program into bioweapons and pathogens in laboratories across Africa, Middle East and Asia with Haematology, Entomology, Epidemiological specialists hired in by the DoD. Alarm has been raised by both Russia and China to these practices in Laboratories that border their Countries and their use of infected mosquitoes delivered by drone as vectors for pathogen release, and asked for explanations as to why the Pentagon is studying such projects.

http://dilyana.bg/diplomatic-viruses/

Dilyana is a journalist who exposed the ratlines for weapons shipment by NATO allies to Syria.

I believe we should keep an open mind on coronavirus and its origins until further information comes to light. I also recognise the difficulty in keeping a blog within rational boundaries and the damage when sites are swamped by foolish ideas (which may or may not be a device in and of itself). I salute b in the work done here and hope MoA remains a go to venue for well thought discussion and exchange of ideas. I can only imagine that holding the space and dealing with the realities of managing that comes with its own pressures. B - I totally thank you for reaching for that.

Posted by: dennis | Mar 19 2020 21:05 utc | 184

H.Schmatz @166--

Those are all good points. I should inform that within the Outlaw US Empire not everyone is being mandated to lock themselves down. As for the differences in societal readiness to combat the unseen enemy, I discussed that issue from day one--some, like the Chinese, remember well, while others have forgotten. That of course will now change. An odd question to ask at this stage is Qui Bono? My answer is the Chinese/Russian Strategic Partnership. Recall that within the Chinese character for crisis is also the character for opportunity.

I have a high degree of confidence that a vaccine will become available by June and normal commercial interactions will be occurring soon after. I do have hopes that parasitic Neoliberalism will be a COVID-19 victim along with most of its promoters within the political class.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 19 2020 21:06 utc | 185

A Swiss Doctor on Covid-19 swprs. org("g00gle" it)

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/17/a-fiasco-in-the-making-as-the-coronavirus-pandemic-takes-hold-we-are-making-decisions-without-reliable-data/

and please also check A. Martyanov`s "pardon my french" blog post for other links in article and comment section.
I for one DO NOT trust msm and governments at all, why should i believe proven liars now? Even b4 ANY real numbers are available i should trust them???
No thank you, "they" have lied about everything so far in my 45 years, why am i supposed to have faith in them now? Keep safe dont be stupid and ffs expect the worst, the backfiring on this income stop/lockdown will be epic when hunger and homelessness kicks in in a few months time. Not everyone live in a Norwegian welfare state like me, i feel for the European working poor and the worlds poor.

Posted by: Per/Norway | Mar 19 2020 21:06 utc | 186

@Posted by: Professor K | Mar 19 2020 20:34 utc | 169

The delaying in everything is absolutely astonishing.

With respect fabrication or buying of medical supplies, no convincing explanation comes to explain the fact that after witnessing for several weeks the worrying situation in Italy, where today they needed military trucks to carry the coffins of the deceased, authorites in Spain, and the rest of Europe, do not organized the fabrication or importing of surplus of supplies for the health system, when they enjoyed a time neither Chinese or Italians did...

It has not been after the government has announced a 200.000 million euro plan of economic contingency, that some "entrepeneurs", like Zara owner Ortega ( one of the richest persons in the world ), have joined the inititive of fabricating masks and coats ( owning as he owns a world wide costumes business ) having beeb sold this fact as filantropic by the MSM, when he has started already an ERTE ( temporary employment regulation file ). Reports on that he is going to dOnate 300.000 masks has been widely published y the press...

Most people has joined the order to shut off their brains and minds, along with their lives, and obey the orders of the goverment...still some have decided to continue thinking...In a professional chat I am embedded in ( y now...), it has been suggested by overwhelming majority ( of those who talk,but there are equivalent number of people who remain silent...proably thinking...)to talk and post only good news...I wonder, bu there is anything of that? Coincidentatly, the chat got silent since those suggestions...

https://twitter.com/fhovallekas/status/1240739865400094737

https://twitter.com/ludelugo/status/1240681822041882624

https://twitter.com/sacedator/status/1240701031471648770

https://twitter.com/McRoque_/status/1240608509881794560

https://twitter.com/Monica_Garcia_G/status/1240630935210676229

https://twitter.com/MarcosLamelas/status/1239137929475342336

https://twitter.com/netmork/status/1240704892404203520

https://twitter.com/ciudadfutura/status/1240654065677275136

https://twitter.com/jcaballerosoler/status/1240675288272588806

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 19 2020 21:06 utc | 187

Imho, it does not matter the origins of COVID-19 whether by natural or a bi-weapon. It's here and now affecting 178 countries.

next door, 4 days ago, the Healthcare professionals in one sector practice were warned by Authorities, exact quote: COVID-19 is a "Monster virus" we order your clinics to close if you do not have the requisite protective gear which unfortunately the supply is not available; close for the next 6-8 weeks."

[shout out to Lozion - if you have returned to the western shores of the Atlantic ocean - that's in your burg. be guided and hope you are not in need.]

Just imagine we are being taken by 'drip, drip' as the economy is facing depressionary - not recessionary - challenges.
Banks will grant up to 6 months mortgage payment holidays. What does that indicate...timeline wise? What are the consequences of missed payments aka interest revenues? Add another 12 months. The schools, service sectors (excepting grocery stores and pharmacies) are ordered closed with major supply chains disrupted.

The big questions; why would .govs forego tax revenues and print like a drunk to pretend all will be OK? Why did the WHO declare "cash is dirty, a conduit for COVID-19" ? Should we self-isolate after filling our gas tanks?

Last week I offered the Western rescue will require printing north of 4.5 quadrillion dollars. Apparently that's way too little: US Restaurant industry now asks for $455 billion; Boeing $60 billion; Airline Industry; Hotels; Auto industry; endless. joe and jane mainstreet are offered crumbs.

In September, 2019 the credit crisis began. The Feds fed the repo market and fortutiously came COVID-19 under cover of which TPTB orders a global stop. Stay home as we hide the financial collapse and usher in the global reset. March 15th negative rates arrived in the US. Credit and interest rates are the other side of the little understood $640 trillion bag of derivatives, all at risk under a global $265 trillion debt that will.never.be.paid.

unlike the seasonal flu, COVID-19 is seen as the catalyst for a debt jubilee.

Time to hunker down for survival.

Posted by: Likklemore | Mar 19 2020 21:13 utc | 188

Lozion:

Do we know all the consequences and potential hazards to 5G?

I know that doctors and scientists understand human biology, virus transmission, and immunology.

I know that there's been a great deal of study about the effect of electromagnetic waves on tissue and I know of no credentialed researcher or group that is concerned about E-M waves causing cells to "excrete" viral material.

I know that if E-M waves were hazardous, there would be many more people affected. And if 80 million died of radio waves in 1918 then tens of millions would've continued to die as radio technology was built out globally.

I know that wifi, cell phone towers, and radio/tv are everywhere yet we don't new deadly viruses on a daily or weekly basis appearing randomly around the world.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 19 2020 21:16 utc | 189

H.Schmatz @166: "Why have been decreed a harsh censure by Youtue, Twitter and Faceook on any information debunking official false information..."

The "Operation Mockingbird" mass media and the big corporate Internet gatekeepers have gotten their latest marching orders, which is to brand the virus as Chinese and as aggressively as possible take down any suggestions that the USA is responsible for it. I cannot fault our host for not wanting to end up a target in that feces storm that is brewing. After all, the Chinese know the virus is a weapon and almost certainly have solid proof of it. It is up to the Chinese to decide if and when the big reveal will be productive. Furthermore, the evidence is in the virus itself. While most western scientists are in denial of the possibility that the "Shining City on the Hill" could actually be responsible for the most horrendous thing they could imagine, and thus cook up bogus conclusions overly dependent upon "probably" and the flawed assumption that an American bioweapon should be more deadly, they are still scientists and will eventually overcome their shocked disbelief and refocus upon the facts. They will eventually give up trying to make 1 + 1 = 3 and accept what the facts demonstrate. The truth of this one is right in people's faces, so it won't remain deniable for too long.

In the meantime, as Walter has pointed out a couple times, the immediate issue is dealing with the impact of the virus regardless of its origin. China has already largely succeeded in this regard and in another few months their economy will be back at full steam. With the West crippled by the blowback from their ill-conceived attack (the USA tries to kick China... breaks own leg), China's "Belt and Road Initiative" will surge and kick the pace of change in the balance of power up a notch. There will then come a historical inflection point after which the American empire will become an irrelevant has-been much like the British empire became after WWII. Then the issue of blame for these bio attacks will just be academic. It will just be a point for historians to argue over whether the US empire could have survived longer if it had not committed the attack.

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 19 2020 21:18 utc | 190

Study discards possibility SARS CoV-2 was engineered in a laboratory (i.e. bioweapon):

Estudo genético mostra por que vírus da covid-19 não foi “feito em laboratório” - Estudo traz evidências de que vírus SARS CoV-2 surgiu a partir dos processos naturais de evolução dos seres vivos

There a picture of the virus' genome for people who don't read Portuguese.

Anyway, long story short is: SARS CoV-2 is closely related to RATG13, which is traced from bats. This all but guarantees both have a common ancestor. Therefore, evolution, not bioengineering, resulted in the SARS CoV-2.

Posted by: vk | Mar 19 2020 21:19 utc | 191

Thanks b

Myth; the precise source of the virus is known.

Fact: no potential source of origin should be discounted until the source is known,

Myth; military labs are not the source of this or other reseach of malign intent.

Fact; dont make me laugh, this is deadly serious.


Fact; fort detrik is a malign and incompetent US military establishment.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 19 2020 21:20 utc | 192

Tom_LX @ 176

Measures against gathering here in North Texas now include the removal of all chairs and tables, at any place you can remember going to sit down with friends. (A.I. is probably modeling the mitigation of the pestilence according to the reduction of domes of industrial pollution over the cities). The far frontier of "1984" would not have surprised Orwell. Thanks for the link.

Posted by: Copeland | Mar 19 2020 21:23 utc | 193

Allen 164

Reading through the comments and when I come to yours, I find that 'research' is far more reliable than actually going to a region... had to laugh at that one. bellingcrap quality research I guess.
This crap about death tolls being high in Italy Iran and China because of pollution is just that. Crap. It comes down to containment and medical care. China did not know what it had been hit with at the start. There were no known treatment protocols. There were no known drugs that would help. They soon rectified that and have brought the situation under control, containment and actively searching for those infected being a big part of that. Iran and Italy have not practiced containment so cannot give adequate medical care. Death toll skyrockets.
South Korea. Learnt from China. Put in place a treatment protocol early on that included us of antivirals by then known to be effective. Extremely low death rate.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 19 2020 21:23 utc | 194

@ 131 jackrabbit.. thanks....

@ 162 jen... thanks... i stand corrected then... i was in northern italy - bologna area and didn't witness it in october / nov 2018...

@ 164 allen... thanks.. you'd be a lot more effective if you acted thoughtfully and realize and didn't talk down to someone to try to get a point across.. but alas that didn't happen.. and you skipped over the question i asked you previously, which at this point i don't want an answer from you on anymore..i'll skip over your posts here forward and please do the same.. thanks..

@ 180 bevin... thanks, but it remains to be seen how it is going to happen all that quickly... that's all i was trying to say..

Posted by: james | Mar 19 2020 21:31 utc | 195

If you are building a wooden chair, do you start with piles of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, and hydrogen molecules, or do you start with a tree? If you start with the tree, then your chair is already 96.3% complete.

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 19 2020 21:34 utc | 196

William Gruff #189

Well said, thank you. Ii my opinion it is all about OBOR and the new economy that is rigorously excluding the $US and its creditmongers.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 19 2020 21:40 utc | 197

This post prompts me to ask a genuine question!
Any one else out there suffering from trauma from this worldwide disaster?
I’d be surprised if all of us aren’t .
In the ok 20,000 army have been put on stand by.
Fights are now breaking out at supermarkets, food banks broken into and robbed !
On a personal note ——— In the last 6 days I have gone out without my keys ‘twice ‘ having to pay a locksmith a hundred quid to get me in both occasions !! Never happened before ! Mind on other things. Point is this shit is real big, bigger than enything mankind has ever delt with. We all know that deep down. We all react to trauma different ways !!
So let’s be kind here. Stay strong b respect

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 19 2020 21:40 utc | 198

Boeing $60 billion

Posted by: Likklemore | Mar 19 2020 21:13 utc | 187

Notice that Boeing was already bankrupted by its own issues with quality widely reported here in this blog...how otherwise a rescue of such bankrupted company ( similar to the rescues of Trump´s bankrupts by sme actors behind the scenes...) could be justified in front of US taxpayers?

Notice also, that under such a crash economic meltdown, the one which "could leave Germany in worse conditions than after WWII" ( warned by German chancellor Merkel in rare public adressing on German TV prime time... ) tourism related business and airliners would anyway go bankrupt...

This is why all this seems a coverage for a transfer of wealth from the working classes to the richest ones this time hugest than that made in 2008...

Zara and its numerous franchises around the world would suffer equally loses under a deep economic recession...Thus, nothing that was not going to happen anyway without the Coronavirus...With Coronavirus, the new rescue of the richest is going to be made swallowed through the gorges of the cloistered population as if it were a volunteer waterboarding...all thisl of ocurse, under continuous patriotic claims on unity and sacrifice...of those of always...

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 19 2020 21:45 utc | 199

uncle tungsten @196

Agreed, that's my opinion too. But Peter AU1 thinks the fight isn't over yet and that the empire's next attack will be trying to shut down China's access to oil. This also fits in with what I understand about how the empire works, so China probably isn't out of the woods yet. The US might even try SARS MkIII next year.

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 19 2020 21:49 utc | 200

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